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Spence
04-30-2004, 06:53 AM
The commander of the U.S. military detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, has been transferred to Iraq to oversee the treatment of 8,000 detainees as part of an investigation into alleged sexual and physical abuse at a U.S. Army-run prison outside Baghdad, officials said Thursday.

The officials also disclosed that the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, has ordered administrative penalties against seven unnamed officers who supervised the Army Reserve military police unit that was responsible for the Abu Ghraib detention facility in November, when Iraqi prisoners allegedly were subjected to beatings and sexually degrading acts by American soldiers.

Criminal charges were filed in March against six members of the unit, the 372nd Military Police Company, based in Cumberland, Md. The charges included conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, assault and indecent acts with another, the military's term for sexual abuse.

Three of the suspects have been recommended for court-martial. The other three face preliminary hearings in May and June to determine whether a court-martial is warranted.

An Army spokesman said charges are likely to be filed against a seventh soldier, and three more soldiers are still under investigation and could face criminal charges.

According to sealed charging papers that were provided to The Washington Post, soldiers forced prisoners to lie in "a pyramid of naked detainees" and jumped on their prone bodies, while other detainees were ordered to strip and perform or simulate sex acts. In one case, a hooded man allegedly was made to stand on a box of MREs, or meals ready to eat, and told that he would be electrocuted if he fell off. In another example, the papers allege, a soldier unzipped a body bag and took snapshots of a detainee's frozen corpse inside.

Several times, soldiers were photographed and videotaped posing in front of humiliated inmates, according to the charges. One gave a thumbs-up sign in front of the human pyramid.

The documents add to growing accusations of improper prisoner treatment at Abu Ghraib, which was Iraq's largest and most notorious prison during the rule of ousted president Saddam Hussein. In addition to the military's announcement in March that soldiers had been charged, details of the abuses and photographs from inside the prison were broadcast Wednesday night by CBS's "60 Minutes II."

On Thursday, U.S. officials confirmed that the images were authentic and said they had taken several steps to stop the mistreatment of prisoners.These photos and this story are all over newspapers in Europe and the Arab world. Public international support for the occupation, already quite small, is about to disintegrate entirely.

Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54540-2004Apr29.html)

Skinzaholic
04-30-2004, 07:32 AM
I agree Tom... this report saddens me deeply. To hear that we have sunken to levels of our enemies is very sad. These soldiers should be severly punished for these actions.

You personal input was a stretch indeed... but... the story is still grave.

Spence
04-30-2004, 08:01 AM
Kevin, check some international newspapers. They're running with this on the front page in bold type. Photos included. I don't know if you've seen the photos, but even blurred out they are pretty disgusting. A lot of these people, especially in the Arab world, were already predisposed to not trust the U.S. This ain't gonna help.

lakewinola
04-30-2004, 08:16 AM
I agree Tom... this report saddens me deeply. To hear that we have sunken to levels of our enemies is very sad. These soldiers should be severly punished for these actions.

You personal input was a stretch indeed... but... the story is still grave.


You really think everythings good in the world that everyone loves us unconditionally? That the world is behind us 100%? Oh, yeah that was before cowboy bush alienated the entire world.

Spence
04-30-2004, 09:45 AM
This is what I'm talking about.CAIRO, Egypt -- Arab television stations led their newscasts Friday with photographs of Iraqi prisoners being humiliated by U.S. military police. One main channel called the pictures evidence of the "immoral practices" of American forces.

The images, including prisoners naked except for hoods covering their heads, documented alleged abuses that have led to charges against six American soldiers. They were first broadcast Wednesday night in the United States on CBS' "60 Minutes II."

The Dubai-based Al-Arabiya and the Qatar-based Al-Jazeera channels blurred the nudity of the prisoners.

The images were potentially inflammatory in an Arab world already angry at the U.S. occupation of Iraq. Arabs consider public nudity as dishonorable.

Prime Minister Tony Blair's office Friday condemned the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners, but stressed it did not reflect the conduct of the vast majority of coalition troops.
...
Al-Jazeera introduced the pictures by saying they showed the "immoral practices" of Iraq's occupation forces. The anchor reported that some of those responsible would face trial and could be discharged from the Army.

Among the images shown by the news channels were a hooded prisoner standing on a box with wires attached to his hands. CBS reported that the prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted, although in reality the wires were not connected to a power supply.

Both stations also showed a photograph of a female U.S. soldier standing by a hooded naked prisoner. The soldier is pointing at his genitals, which are blurred out, and grinning at the camera.

The stations also broadcast a picture of several naked men intertwined as if they were engaging in a sex act.

CBS said the images were taken late last year at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, where American soldiers were holding hundreds of prisoners captured during the invasion and occupation of Iraq.Source (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/printer/ap.asp?category=1107&slug=Mideast%20Prisoner%20Abuse)

By now, just about everyone in the Arab world with access to a newspaper or television has seen these photos. Others will have heard about it on the radio.

Spence
05-03-2004, 11:19 AM
WARNING: The following information is graphic and disgusting, though also very, very important. Consider yourself cautioned.Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

There was stunning evidence to support the allegations, Taguba added—“detailed witness statements and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence.” Photographs and videos taken by the soldiers as the abuses were happening were not included in his report, Taguba said, because of their “extremely sensitive nature.”

The photographs—several of which were broadcast on CBS’s “60 Minutes 2” last week—show leering G.I.s taunting naked Iraqi prisoners who are forced to assume humiliating poses. Six suspects—Staff Sergeant Ivan L. Frederick II, known as Chip, who was the senior enlisted man; Specialist Charles A. Graner; Sergeant Javal Davis; Specialist Megan Ambuhl; Specialist Sabrina Harman; and Private Jeremy Sivits—are now facing prosecution in Iraq, on charges that include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty toward prisoners, maltreatment, assault, and indecent acts. A seventh suspect, Private Lynndie England, was reassigned to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, after becoming pregnant.

The photographs tell it all. In one, Private England, a cigarette dangling from her mouth, is giving a jaunty thumbs-up sign and pointing at the genitals of a young Iraqi, who is naked except for a sandbag over his head, as he masturbates. Three other hooded and naked Iraqi prisoners are shown, hands reflexively crossed over their genitals. A fifth prisoner has his hands at his sides. In another, England stands arm in arm with Specialist Graner; both are grinning and giving the thumbs-up behind a cluster of perhaps seven naked Iraqis, knees bent, piled clumsily on top of each other in a pyramid. There is another photograph of a cluster of naked prisoners, again piled in a pyramid. Near them stands Graner, smiling, his arms crossed; a woman soldier stands in front of him, bending over, and she, too, is smiling. Then, there is another cluster of hooded bodies, with a female soldier standing in front, taking photographs. Yet another photograph shows a kneeling, naked, unhooded male prisoner, head momentarily turned away from the camera, posed to make it appear that he is performing oral sex on another male prisoner, who is naked and hooded.

Such dehumanization is unacceptable in any culture, but it is especially so in the Arab world. Homosexual acts are against Islamic law and it is humiliating for men to be naked in front of other men, Bernard Haykel, a professor of Middle Eastern studies at New York University, explained. “Being put on top of each other and forced to masturbate, being naked in front of each other—it’s all a form of torture,” Haykel said.

Two Iraqi faces that do appear in the photographs are those of dead men. There is the battered face of prisoner No. 153399, and the bloodied body of another prisoner, wrapped in cellophane and packed in ice. There is a photograph of an empty room, splattered with blood.

The 372nd’s abuse of prisoners seemed almost routine—a fact of Army life that the soldiers felt no need to hide. On April 9th, at an Article 32 hearing (the military equivalent of a grand jury) in the case against Sergeant Frederick, at Camp Victory, near Baghdad, one of the witnesses, Specialist Matthew Wisdom, an M.P., told the courtroom what happened when he and other soldiers delivered seven prisoners, hooded and bound, to the so-called “hard site” at Abu Ghraib—seven tiers of cells where the inmates who were considered the most dangerous were housed. The men had been accused of starting a riot in another section of the prison. Wisdom said:

SFC Snider grabbed my prisoner and threw him into a pile. . . . I do not think it was right to put them in a pile. I saw SSG Frederic, SGT Davis and CPL Graner walking around the pile hitting the prisoners. I remember SSG Frederick hitting one prisoner in the side of its [sic] ribcage. The prisoner was no danger to SSG Frederick. . . . I left after that.

When he returned later, Wisdom testified:

I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open. I thought I should just get out of there. I didn’t think it was right . . . I saw SSG Frederick walking towards me, and he said, “Look what these animals do when you leave them alone for two seconds.” I heard PFC England shout out, “He’s getting hard.”

Wisdom testified that he told his superiors what had happened, and assumed that “the issue was taken care of.” He said, “I just didn’t want to be part of anything that looked criminal.”
...
Myers, who was one of the military defense attorneys in the My Lai prosecutions of the nineteen-seventies, told me that his client’s defense will be that he was carrying out the orders of his superiors and, in particular, the directions of military intelligence. He said, “Do you really think a group of kids from rural Virginia decided to do this on their own? Decided that the best way to embarrass Arabs and make them talk was to have them walk around nude?”

In letters and e-mails to family members, Frederick repeatedly noted that the military-intelligence teams, which included C.I.A. officers and linguists and interrogation specialists from private defense contractors, were the dominant force inside Abu Ghraib. In a letter written in January, he said:

I questioned some of the things that I saw . . . such things as leaving inmates in their cell with no clothes or in female underpants, handcuffing them to the door of their cell—and the answer I got was, “This is how military intelligence (MI) wants it done.” . . . . MI has also instructed us to place a prisoner in an isolation cell with little or no clothes, no toilet or running water, no ventilation or window, for as much as three days.


The military-intelligence officers have “encouraged and told us, ‘Great job,’ they were now getting positive results and information,” Frederick wrote. “CID has been present when the military working dogs were used to intimidate prisoners at MI’s request.” At one point, Frederick told his family, he pulled aside his superior officer, Lieutenant Colonel Jerry Phillabaum, the commander of the 320th M.P. Battalion, and asked about the mistreatment of prisoners. “His reply was ‘Don’t worry about it.’”

In November, Frederick wrote, an Iraqi prisoner under the control of what the Abu Ghraib guards called “O.G.A.,” or other government agencies—that is, the C.I.A. and its paramilitary employees—was brought to his unit for questioning. “They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. . . . The next day the medics came and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away.” The dead Iraqi was never entered into the prison’s inmate-control system, Frederick recounted, “and therefore never had a number.”Source (http://www.newyorker.com/printable/?fact/040510fa_fact)

There is more and it just gets worse. This is a gigantic scandal that is on the front page of every major [and most minor] newspapers in the world. Iraqis and other Arabs are bombarded with news about this constantly.

What's more, as The Washington Post reported on Sunday, the horrible conditions at the Abu Ghraib prison got much worse AFTER a team of military intelligence officials arrived from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, with instructions as to how interrogations of Iraqi prisoners should be conducted. When several British detainees at Guantanamo Bay were freed, they returned to the United Kingdom and told stories of terrible abuse by U.S. officials at the prison in Guantanamo Bay. Their stories were dismissed as the rantings of Islamic fanatics, but with the revolting evidence pouring out of Iraq every day, we can see that perhaps the world should be paid closer attention to what those freed British men said.

I know from several conversations I have had this weekend with members of defense teams for Guantanamo Bay prisoners about to go on trial that their lawyers intend to raise the issue of torture at Gitmo very prominently. The Bush administration has declared that they have the absolute right to run these prisons in Gitmo and Iraq [and anywhere else in the world] as they see fit and any judicial oversight is unconstitutional. The notion that the administration should be trusted to run these prisons properly because they say they will has received a serious blow. We shall see how judges hearing these cases react to this news.

BigCountry
05-03-2004, 05:44 PM
Only thing I don't get is why this is a suprise? Anyone really think soldiers were going in there as good will people? Call this contraversial all you want but when was the last time you heard of a "white" country invaiding a "minority" country without this stuff happening? This thing is routine to U.S invasion justified or not. They don't hate us out there for no good reason. Nobody up in the white house, democrats or republicans, looks at any Arab country as an equal, and never will. This is very extreme, but when's the last time we treated an Arab country like equal human beings?

Booser
05-03-2004, 07:06 PM
this is truly a shame, but i would hesitate to look to other (especially European) countries' media outlets for an indication of support. Keep in mind that the Socialist party controls many European countries (like Spain). Also, over 60 countries now have troops working in conjunction with US forces in Operation Iraqi Freedom. I would hardly call that a lack of international support. Who cares what France thinks anyway?

higgybaby
05-03-2004, 07:07 PM
originally posted by lakewinola:

You really think everythings good in the world that everyone loves us unconditionally? That the world is behind us 100%? Oh, yeah that was before cowboy bush alienated the entire world.

Lakewinola if you believe that was the worlds sentiment of us before the bush administration, oh wait a minute I have another call, I am back sorry about that, where was I, Oh yeah Santa and the Easter bunny said for me to tell you to make sure you are good this year...

thickskin
05-03-2004, 08:13 PM
actually, the easter bunny and santa clause are real only in the sense that they might have a real initial referent, the rest is mythologized, even more so than religious figures bc fewer attempts have been made to conflate mythical with historical events, which are dubious in their own right, so i suspect it is really you, higgybaby, who wishes goodness of lakewinola. defend your honor!

akhhorus
05-03-2004, 10:07 PM
I know it was on the daily show, but when Wolfowitz said that the torture chambers were gone, shouldnt he just said: "Under new management"?

Spence
05-04-2004, 08:15 AM
this is truly a shame, but i would hesitate to look to other (especially European) countries' media outlets for an indication of support. Keep in mind that the Socialist party controls many European countries (like Spain). Also, over 60 countries now have troops working in conjunction with US forces in Operation Iraqi Freedom. I would hardly call that a lack of international support. Who cares what France thinks anyway?I can't think of anything sensible in this post. What difference does it make if the Socialist party runs the government in Spain? It has a free press. The government does not control the media in Spain, as the Occupation controls the media in Iraq. There is not censorship in Spain as there is in Iraq under Saddam Hussein or the U.S. occupation.

Who cares what France thinks? Well, the Bush admin, actually. The Bush admin is the one who insulted Europe and the U.N. and has now gone back to the U.N. begging for help in Iraq. And in case you need to be reminded, France has a seat on the permanent Security Council.

Jeebus, how long is this incredibly childish "Freedom Fries" mentality going to last?

camasterton
05-04-2004, 10:03 AM
A pregnant woman and her four children were shot by PLO terrorists. 18 children are burned alive by Arab terrorists in Bhagdad. Pick a day, any day, and similar disgusting acts occur. Where's the outrage from these oh so offended. Where's is the outrage over the countless deaths caused by the misogynistic, racist, murdering culture in the Arab world? There is none. There is no censorship, yeah so what. There is nothing the 21st century French press could teach the world about morality. Thier "seat" is a joke. A great place for them to receive kick backs, to make secret oil contracts with murdering dictators in the "name of the chlildren". They'll be on the wrong side of history again, France and Spain et al. They're the ones who'll be begging.

Spence
05-04-2004, 10:19 AM
A pregnant woman and her four children were shot by PLO terrorists. 18 children are burned alive by Arab terrorists in Bhagdad. Pick a day, any day, and similar disgusting acts occur. Where's the outrage from these oh so offended. Where's is the outrage over the countless deaths caused by the misogynistic, racist, murdering culture in the Arab world? I suspect the world expects more of the U.S. The reason the Bush admin invaded Iraq has shifted from WMD [which didn't exist] to ending oppression. Mr Bush bragged about how we had closed down the torture chambers. Clearly, we didn't close them down, they're just under new management. This is not what the world expected of the U.S. This is not what the American people expected.

The world expects more of the U.S., Cam. So do I. Don't you?

dukeuch
05-04-2004, 10:20 AM
A pregnant woman and her four children were shot by PLO terrorists. 18 children are burned alive by Arab terrorists in Bhagdad. Pick a day, any day, and similar disgusting acts occur. Where's the outrage from these oh so offended. Where's is the outrage over the countless deaths caused by the misogynistic, racist, murdering culture in the Arab world? There is none. There is no censorship, yeah so what. There is nothing the 21st century French press could teach the world about morality. Thier "seat" is a joke. A great place for them to receive kick backs, to make secret oil contracts with murdering dictators in the "name of the chlildren". They'll be on the wrong side of history again, France and Spain et al. They're the ones who'll be begging.

Man oh man, do you really think that during the various embargos on the importation of oil from Iraq and Iran over the past decades that we did not import Iraqi and Iranian oil? Of course we did, it just was not from Iraqis or Iranians directly.

There is plenty of outrage regarding atrocities around the world. Just as there should be plenty of outrage regarding the atrocities committed by the US. Personally, I hold ourselves and our allies to a higher standard than terrorists, and you should too. Do you think that the acts committed by the six or seven soldiers here represent the total? Please.

camasterton
05-04-2004, 11:01 AM
Atrocities, torture? There in lies the problem. You and others who equate the daily murder, terror and rape by terrorists-with the stupid acts of a dozen soilders. I do expect our soilders to act right and I expect the terrorist ghouls to be held accountable. The rest of the world you boys so idolize, should expect more of itself. Until then, they get no respect and deserve our insults. As for the oil, yes your right. With the help of many including Clinton pardon buddy, Mark Rich, Saddam Hussain's oil made it's way to the USA.

Spence
05-04-2004, 11:12 AM
If you want a current high U.S. official responsible for doing business with Iraq during the 1990s, loook no further than Dick Cheney and Halliburton.

You're not making sense, Cam. First of all, there is no evidence that the abuse of Iraqi soldiers was the work of a dozen soldiers. According to the woman who ran that prison, a Lt. General in the National Guard, one picture of the prison abuse shows 32 boots in the background. She also says that military intelligence and the CIA were running the interrogations and wanted the Iraqi prisoners "softened up." What's more, Senator Chuck Hagel [R-NE] said this morning that the problem goes straight to the top and he will hold congressional investigations into this abuse and at what level it was supported, encouraged, and tolerated.

Of course, the atrocities committed by terrorists and dictatorships around the world are awful. [I presume you are including in your comments the dictator of Uzbekistan, who tortures political prisoners to death by lowering them into vats of hot oil. He was a guest of Mr Bush at the White House and Mr Bush gave him $500 million in U.S. taxpayer money. I presume you deplore that, too. Right?] But the U.S. holds itself out as a beacon to humanity. We're supposed to be an example to the rest of the world. I don't know about you, Cam, but some of us take that sort of thing seriously. We believe in a great and moral America and we're pretty goddamned pissed off when we find out that bad men in power don't take it seriously at all. For example, when we find out that a report detailing these abuses in the Iraq prison was finished in February and that neither General Richard Myers or Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has even bothered to read it, we get pretty damned pissed off.

Don't you?

camasterton
05-04-2004, 11:26 AM
I would take your being pissed off more seriously, except it is only let loose for those who's political views are different from your's.

Spence
05-04-2004, 11:29 AM
I would take your being pissed off more seriously, except it is only let loose for those who's political views are different from your's.What does anyone's political views have to do with anything, Cam? People were tortured and U.S. soldiers are responsible for it. That makes the U.S. government responsible for it and since we live in a democracy, that makes all of us responsible. What the U.S. government does it does in our name. Politics, shmolitics. Either you're against torture or you are not. Either you want those responsible for committing and tolerating these acts held responsible or you do not. I guess we know where I stand. Your views on the subject are more mysterious.

flave1969
05-04-2004, 11:32 AM
A pregnant woman and her four children were shot by PLO terrorists. 18 children are burned alive by Arab terrorists in Bhagdad. Pick a day, any day, and similar disgusting acts occur. Where's the outrage from these oh so offended. Where's is the outrage over the countless deaths caused by the misogynistic, racist, murdering culture in the Arab world? There is none. There is no censorship, yeah so what. There is nothing the 21st century French press could teach the world about morality. Thier "seat" is a joke. A great place for them to receive kick backs, to make secret oil contracts with murdering dictators in the "name of the chlildren". They'll be on the wrong side of history again, France and Spain et al. They're the ones who'll be begging.

Sorry Cam, but the press of Europe have been reporting with outrage and fullness the events of the middle-east and Iraq for many years with none of the sanitised reporting that you generally get in your media. Daily in all countries in Europe we are shown images that are very rarely seen in the US. The disgraceful atrocities commited on those four US contractors in Fallujah were shown in far more detail here and were widely condemned and received top billing in just about every country in Europe.

As for your last comments well the phrase "the pot calling the kettle black" comes to mind. Many regimes have been propped up by US governments including Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden when it was expedient to do so. So criticising kick backs and support for murderous regimes is a bit rich. My own government in the UK, openly criticises regimes such as Mugabe in Zimbabwe but freely allows big business to deal with that same regime.

History has generally had a habit of ensuring all sides lose. When this is all done and dusted, if it is ever all done and dusted, we will see that the cost in lives, the cost in money, the cost to Arab-European-US relations may well be beyond repair. If you think that does not matter, and being on the right side of history is the most important thing, then we are in for a much poorer world.

Spence
05-04-2004, 11:50 AM
Very well put, Flave. You may rest assured that not all Americans take this incredibly hostile attitude towards people from other countries. Many of us think there is more to being a good American and citizen of the world than just changing the name of food and singing Lee Greenwood songs as loudly as possible.

dukeuch
05-04-2004, 11:55 AM
Atrocities, torture? There in lies the problem. You and others who equate the daily murder, terror and rape by terrorists-with the stupid acts of a dozen soilders. I do expect our soilders to act right and I expect the terrorist ghouls to be held accountable. The rest of the world you boys so idolize, should expect more of itself. Until then, they get no respect and deserve our insults. As for the oil, yes your right. With the help of many including Clinton pardon buddy, Mark Rich, Saddam Hussain's oil made it's way to the USA.

And who was responsible during Reagan's tenure, Bush Sr's?

dukeuch
05-04-2004, 12:06 PM
Atrocities, torture? There in lies the problem. You and others who equate the daily murder, terror and rape by terrorists-with the stupid acts of a dozen soilders. I do expect our soilders to act right and I expect the terrorist ghouls to be held accountable. The rest of the world you boys so idolize, should expect more of itself. Until then, they get no respect and deserve our insults. As for the oil, yes your right. With the help of many including Clinton pardon buddy, Mark Rich, Saddam Hussain's oil made it's way to the USA.

What in the world is your point here? That we are "not so bad" as terrorist nations so what's the big deal? I know terrorists are going to commit atrocities; that is how they fight. That is their strategy. I do not want Americans to adopt the strategy. Why is it that criticizing abhorent behavior by Americans seems to incense the supporters of the Iraqi War?

It issimilar to conservatives attacks on Kerry's anti-war behavior afterheserved. I applaud the way Kerry denounced atrocities committed by Americans in Vietnam. For all the criticism he is taking from the right, I do not hear anyone calling into question whether the atrocities themselves happened. Don't Americans WANT whistleblowers of such misdeeds to step forward?

Spence
05-04-2004, 12:08 PM
As usual, Senator John McCain [R-AZ] has got it right: SEN. MCCAIN: Could I just say that we received a briefing from the Army personnel as to the status of the investigation. And I think that they are trying to do the best they can under the circumstances.

The dissatisfaction in the committee is that we were not informed as to the investigation nor the results of the investigation. And the way that we were informed, of course, was through media reports. The Congress should have been notified of this situation a long time ago. It's a neglect of the responsibilities that Secretary Rumsfeld and the civilian leaders of the Pentagon have to keep the Congress informed of an issue of this magnitude.

We need to have a hearing as soon as possible with Secretary Rumsfeld testifying, and other service secretaries, if necessary, as to how this whole situation evolved, what action is being taken, and what further action needs to be taken to prevent a recurrence of this terrible situation.

Finally, could I just say that yesterday I attended the memorial service for a brave young American, Pat Tillman. And here we have the contrast between the service and sacrifice of an outstanding and brave young -- and honorable man, and what is obviously dishonorable conduct by a few, which unfortunately besmirches the entire reputation of these wonderful young men and women.

Finally, we've got to find out what oversight took place there in the situation and why there wasn't better oversight, and whether there was civilian, meaning intelligence or contractor involvement in this situation as well.

Q You say that Congress should have been informed.

SEN. MCCAIN: Yes, sir.

Q Is it a problem that "60 Minutes" knew about this two weeks ago, and then withheld that, and even members of Congress did not know about it?

SEN. MCCAIN: It is a severe problem. But it is a pattern on the part of the Defense Department of not keeping the Congress informed on a variety of issues. But this is really egregious.

Q There's been some suggestion, sir, that this is standard procedure, in some sense, for interrogating personnel, enemy personnel; that they were, quote-unquote, trying to "soften them up"; and that further, the enlisted people who carried out these acts were instructed to do that and only following orders. And I'd like your reaction to that.

SEN. MCCAIN: We'll find -- well, obviously, I have no way of knowing that, but rules for the treatment of prisoners of war are very clear. There is no justification for this kind of treatment.

Q Are you surprised apparently to learn today that this went beyond Iraq; that there's trouble, possibly, in Afghanistan and Guantanamo?

SEN. MCCAIN: There are so many allegations swirling around this situation, that we must have a public hearing, with the secretary of Defense testifying, in order to clear up all of these allegations. Not an hour goes by that there isn't an additional allegation. And unfortunately, the Congress in general and the Senate Armed Services Committee in particular has been, up until this morning, been kept completely in the dark. The 53-page report has been sent to the media before it has been sent to the Senate Armed Services Committee, which it's supposed to arrive sometime today. That's quite a commentary.

Q Senator, Rumsfeld and Myers have indicated over the weekend that they hadn't even read this report yet. They -- (inaudible) -- details. Does that surprise you?

SEN. MCCAIN: It's surprising, but I want them to be able to respond to all of these questions, not just to the Congress, but the American people. So I can't make claims of misconduct or good conduct until we have a full and complete hearing of the situation.
...
Q Can you characterize how this affects the image of America abroad?

SEN. MCCAIN: Well, obviously it's harmful to an enormous degree. And I only pray that the thousands, millions of acts of generosity and kindness displayed by American military personnel to the Iraqi people will be taken into consideration at some time.Those words were spoken in an interview on Capitol Hill just moments ago, after a closed-door meeting of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

RedskinsVision
05-04-2004, 12:12 PM
Shame is just the tip of the iceberg. We love to brag about how great our country is whenever we see the positives that we do but quickly wanna turn out heads and deny the atrocities that we commit as well. This isn't a work of a dozen or so soldiers but a work of an entire institution called Military Intelligence and the CIA. It's fitting that these guys came from Guantanimo Bay.. just imagine the horrors going on there even now.. I guess those British detainees were right. They also talk about how the morale was low at Abu Ghraib so the soldiers were allowed to have some fun at the prisoner's expense. And sad how it took a third investigation by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba to bring the truth out. Now all the top heads are blaming each other and the gov.t wants a congressional hearing on this matter. This is exactly the lack of order and principles our gov.t' and the military have. What were they gonna get out from these Iraqi prisoners??.. do they know the next big attack that's gonna take place in America??.. or do they know of any sleeper cells residing and hiding here??.. do they know where Osama is??.. do they know where the WMD's are?? Even FoxNews can't help blasting the U.S. for this.. no conservative media or the world's media are gonna let this slide. We're in a position of power and now we've shown exactly how we use that power.

Spence
05-04-2004, 12:16 PM
Don't Americans WANT whistleblowers of such misdeeds to step forward?Great question. The answer is that good Americans who love their country and the values upon which it was founded want whistleblowers to step forward so that those values never go out of style.

RedskinsDave
05-04-2004, 12:17 PM
Yeah but what does he know about POW's? :whoknows:

Skinzaholic
05-04-2004, 12:47 PM
Wow! It's like shark infested waters around here. Cam shares his opinion (as others in this place have been so prone to do loudly and obnoxiously) and the Democrats circle and gang up on him... amazing.

Makes you wonder who really is the enemy.

Spence
05-04-2004, 12:54 PM
Wow! It's like shark infested waters around here. Cam shares his opinion (as others in this place have been so prone to do loudly and obnoxiously) and the Democrats circle and gang up on him... amazing.

Makes you wonder who really is the enemy.What you call ganging up, others might call argument. He stated his opinions. It's not our fault that plenty of people disagree with him strongly enough to post replies. If anyone can't handle that level of discourse, they've got no business hanging out in this forum.

I don't have to wonder who the really enemy is. The real enemy is the sort of person who flies airplanes into buildings and the sort of person who tortures and murders prisoners in the darkness of a prison.

flave1969
05-04-2004, 01:42 PM
Wow! It's like shark infested waters around here. Cam shares his opinion (as others in this place have been so prone to do loudly and obnoxiously) and the Democrats circle and gang up on him... amazing.

Makes you wonder who really is the enemy.


That is an amazing statement Skinzs. Without fail Spence, Duke any other number you care to mention, be they Yudo, Dave, Ford come on here passionately argue their point of view. One thing they all have in common is they love their country. Some feel it is the centre of everything, others feel that there is a world out there that is too be respected, too be understood before being tackled.

I questioned Cam, because he made a sweeping statement about Europe, France and Spain in particular. Yet there is openess towards the things that shock people in Europe, that you just never see. When you make said sweeping statements you have too be prepared to take the responses that come your way.

RedskinsVision
05-04-2004, 02:20 PM
Wow! It's like shark infested waters around here. Cam shares his opinion (as others in this place have been so prone to do loudly and obnoxiously) and the Democrats circle and gang up on him... amazing.

Makes you wonder who really is the enemy.

thats some serious indictment ur putting on there.. so ur saying any compassionate American that is appalled by this act are the enemy??? i would hope ALL Americans are ashamed of this act coming from the world's most dominating country. then i guess ALL of us are the enemy in ur world. it's sad some ppl take it as a personal attack on their beliefs and view this as a Republican/Democrat issue when this is an American issue. don't take it personal.. just open ur heart and accept our faults as well as our glories.

Spence
05-04-2004, 04:38 PM
It is called Murder:WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. military has investigated the deaths of 25 prisoners held by American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and determined that two prisoners were murdered by Americans, one an Army soldier and the other a CIA contractor, Army officials said on Tuesday.
An Army official said that a soldier was convicted in the U.S. military justice system of killing a prisoner by hitting him with a rock, and was reduced in rank to private and thrown out of the service but did not serve any jail time.

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said a private contractor who worked for the CIA was found to have committed the other homicide against a prisoner.

Word of these investigations came as the Pentagon continued to investigate the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. forces at the Abu Ghraib prison on the outskirts of Baghdad.Source (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5038330&section=news)

There is more than the evil of murder and torture here. Our national honor is at stake. Something--much--must be done to stop this.

Axegrinder
05-04-2004, 04:55 PM
It is called Murder:Source (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5038330&section=news)

There is more than the evil of murder and torture here. Our national honor is at stake. Something--much--must be done to stop this.
I think that this is something all of us can agree on.How do we salvage our worldwide image and credibility?

akhhorus
05-04-2004, 05:17 PM
I think that this is something all of us can agree on.How do we salvage our worldwide image and credibility?

Stop being such a jerk to everyone, we are the most powerful nation on earth, but it doesnt help to rub it in everyone's face whenever we can. If Bush had been more smooth going about it, this whole Iraq thing wouldnt have caused so much trouble. So far, his presidency has been a lesson to us all that it isnt just what you do, but how you do it.

Spence
05-04-2004, 08:55 PM
I just got off the phone with a lawyer for one of the prison guards accused of abuse in this case. It was off the record and I can't go into much of what he told me, but I will pass on one thing. He told me far far worse revelations about abuse will come out. More photos. Videotape. Extremely nasty stuff. Worse than anything that has come out so far.

Get ready.

akhhorus
05-04-2004, 11:24 PM
I just got off the phone with a lawyer for one of the prison guards accused of abuse in this case. It was off the record and I can't go into much of what he told me, but I will pass on one thing. He told me far far worse revelations about abuse will come out. More photos. Videotape. Extremely nasty stuff. Worse than anything that has come out so far.

Get ready.

Great, this will totally undermine our efforts to build trust in the world. Thanks you dumb-arse soldiers..We should hand them over to the Iraqis for punishment.

dukeuch
05-05-2004, 06:51 AM
Yeah but what does he know about POW's? :whoknows:

I'm not sure about which post you are replying to here, but I assume that when you are referring to POW's you mean the detainees who were abused/tortured. That is interesting, because these guys are NOT POWs, they are civilians who have been detained for questioning, i.e. they were not captured on the battlefield. Some may have ties to the insurgents or they may not. Many of the detainees are held, never questioned, and released without being charged with anything. One of the men in the photos was released after being held for weeks,was never questioned, never charged. In other words, many of the people being abused are just ordinary Iraqis, who's crime is to be a man of a certain age, held without being charged or any due process.

This is one hell of a way to gain support of the general Iraqi population.

lakewinola
05-05-2004, 07:42 AM
I'm not sure about which post you are replying to here, but I assume that when you are referring to POW's you mean the detainees who were abused/tortured. That is interesting, because these guys are NOT POWs, they are civilians who have been detained for questioning, i.e. they were not captured on the battlefield. Some may have ties to the insurgents or they may not. Many of the detainees are held, never questioned, and released without being charged with anything. One of the men in the photos was released after being held for weeks,was never questioned, never charged. In other words, many of the people being abused are just ordinary Iraqis, who's crime is to be a man of a certain age, held without being charged or any due process.

This is one hell of a way to gain support of the general Iraqi population.

I think he was talking about McCain.

RedskinsDave
05-05-2004, 09:02 AM
I was. Other people beat me to responding and I guess I should've used a ;)

IowaSkinsFan
05-10-2004, 01:43 AM
I just got off the phone with a lawyer for one of the prison guards accused of abuse in this case. It was off the record and I can't go into much of what he told me, but I will pass on one thing. He told me far far worse revelations about abuse will come out. More photos. Videotape. Extremely nasty stuff. Worse than anything that has come out so far.

Get ready.

This is my deepest fear.

IowaSkinsFan
05-10-2004, 02:12 AM
The ironic thing (or one of the ironic things) about this scandal is that it will only serve to further the hostilities and the attacks against the American Soldiers over there.

Source (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/30/iraq.photos/)

People will be extremely angry. ... Sexual abuse is the worst thing in that part of the world. It is shocking to all Muslims. America has lost the battle completely. I believe there will be more attacks.

IowaSkinsFan
05-10-2004, 02:17 AM
And using this as a rationale just sounds like scapegoating.

However, Clwyd said there was no comparison with how prisoners were treated under Saddam Hussein.

A small number of cases, horrible though they are -- you cannot compare that with the tens of thousands of people Saddam Hussein was responsible for executing and torturing," she said.

As time goes along, I am finding that I am agreeing with Spence more and more, as much as it pains me to admit that.

We should expect more from our leaders and our military. I do.

I fear for any Americans that are taken hostage/prisoner now that this has come to light.

akhhorus
05-10-2004, 09:43 AM
Well, Saddam's son Uday once kidnapped a guy who pissed him off and did the following:
Fed him 3 bottles of Gin and strapped him to a merry-go-round, turned it on and waited for him to die of vertigo. At least they had a sense of whimsy.

IowaSkinsFan
05-10-2004, 10:09 AM
That does not surprise me anymore. I expect more from the US, however.

Spence
05-10-2004, 10:35 AM
Yeah, Robert's right. The last thing we want to do is compare ourselves to a thug like Saddam Hussein. We're the U.S.A., for crying out loud. I don't know about the rest of you, but I was raised to believe the U.S. is a great country and if that great country screws up, it'll do whatever it has to do to set things aright. I love my country and take things like that pretty seriously. We all want to be proud of our country, right? I can be proud of my country if we investigate these matters fully, nail all bad guys to the wall, regardless of their rank or political favor, and create new safeguards to ensure this doesn't happen again. We could start by getting the Red Cross into all these places we're holding prisoners without charge--Iraq, Afghanistan, Gitmo.

I heard Senator Lindsey Graham [R-SC] over the weekend talking about how this cannot be reduced to some Bush v. Kerry debate. He's absolutely correct and I applaud the tough, bipartisan line he has taken thus far. This is so much bigger than either man or even the election. Our national honor is at stake and that means more to me than any election. Making mistakes and doing terrible things are inevitable in the life of every nation. This isn't the first atrocity our government has committed and it won't be the last. What matters now is cleaning up the mess, prosecuting EVERYONE responsible, punishing the guilty, exonerating the innocent, and trying our damndest to see that it doesn't happen again.

Our national honor is at stake. Our position in the world as a moral guide and authority.

Skinzaholic
05-10-2004, 11:46 AM
I heard Senator Lindsey Graham [R-SC] over the weekend talking about how this cannot be reduced to some Bush v. Kerry debate. He's absolutely correct and I applaud the tough, bipartisan line he has taken thus far. This is so much bigger than either man or even the election.


Funny how this has become such a big issue during en election year. Despite how patriotic you spin this whole thing... the Democrats are jumping on an opportunity... with no care about anything beyond discrediting the current Administration to make their liberal viewpoints look sweeter to the ill-informed.

akhhorus
05-10-2004, 11:59 AM
Funny how this has become such a big issue during en election year. Despite how patriotic you spin this whole thing... the Democrats are jumping on an opportunity... with no care about anything beyond discrediting the current Administration to make their liberal viewpoints look sweeter to the ill-informed.

so Graham is a liberal now? who isnt in your eyes?

Spence
05-10-2004, 12:05 PM
Kevin, you're so far in the hole for Bush I don't think you can see daylight anymore. Read the transcripts of the Sunday political talk shows. Read what Republican Senators like Chuck Hagel, Richard Lugar, John McCain, and Lindsey Graham [all of who voted to give Mr Bush authorization to go to war in Iraq] say about this. If you think this is a liberal issue you're just not paying attention at all. It's only Rush who thinks this is funny and "brilliant," as he said last week. The rest of the country thinks it is revolting and most of the Senate [which is dominated by Republicans] wants things done. No one questioned Rumsfeld on Friday more sharply than McCain and Graham. Pushing this off as a Democratic campaign isn't going to wash with anyone who is paying attention.

Did you think Lindsey Graham was a liberal when he was a House Republican leading the charge to impeach President Clinton? Graham was one of the House Managers who prosecuted the case in the Senate. When did he become a commie to you? Is that your attitude towards anyone who dares demand some accountability from the White House?