Rank the coaches

[natgbz]

Since the offseason has hit a bit of a lull, I figured this might spark some discussions. Pick the best coach, and if you like rank then (and others I might have missed) in your posts.

[bosshog001]

Has to be Gibbs, with Lombardi the only other contender. Best combination of performance and character.

[lb56blitz]

i voted gibbs but not cause i am impartial but because he really is/was the best coach. Lombardi was great but he didn't have to deal with the modern day nfl. i hate parcells period, and i really never understood what was so great about Madden (except he has the greatest video game ever), i don't really have anything bad to say about walsh, and vermeil shouldn't even be there with the rest. Where is George Allen?

[Spence]

I know this is a Redskins fan site, but honestly... The correct answer is Vince Lombardi.

[Keino]

I voted Gibbs.....I cannot be objective on this question. I would like to know why it's hands down Lombardi?

[lb56blitz]

I voted Gibbs.....I cannot be objective on this question. I would like to know why it's hands down Lombardi?


me too......ahem, Spence.

[SkinsCT]

Gibbs is the best one on the list. Maybe because I'm biased, but I'll take Joe Gibbs over all of those coaches any day of the week.

[Spence]

Vince Lombardi had a better regular season winning percentage than Joe Gibbs and his postseason record is still the best in NFL history. In nine years of coaching the Packers, Lombardi missed the playoffs only once, his first year. He took over a team that had a 1-10-1 record in 1958 and immediately turned them around, leading the Packers to a 7-5-2 record in 1959. Before Lombardi came along, the Packers had not had a winning record since 1947. In nine seasons as Packers coach, Lombardi went to six NFL championship games and won five of them. He also won the first two Super Bowl championships, before retiring as head coach of the Packers after the 1967 season.

Lombardi took over the Washington Redskins as head coach in 1969. The Redskins had not had a winning season since 1955. Lombardi immediately turned them around, too, leading the Redskins to a 7-5-2 record. He died in 1970 during the offseason. Lombardi never had a losing season. Gibbs had one, in 1988. Lombardi's teams never even finished at .500. Gibbs finished at .500 once, in 1981.

Gibbs' coaching career is great. Lombardi's is greater.

[SonnyandSam]

I know this is a Redskins fan site, but honestly... The correct answer is Vince Lombardi.

Ditto

[nyjunc]

This is tough. Her's my list:

1. Lombardi
2. Parcells
2b Walsh
2c Gibbs(I think you can toss Gibbs, Walsh & BP into a hat and take them in any order)
5. Vermeil
6. Madden- both vermeil & madden were very good coaches but neither belong on this list w/ the top 4 guys above.

[Axegrinder]

By Gibbs comming back, he will settle this dispute while adding to his myth and legend!

[AshlynSkins]

1. Lombardi (he has the SB trophy named after him for gee's sake)

2. Gibbs (only HC to win 3 SB w/3 different QB's)

3. Walsh (great mind who in 1 way or another has had many of the HC's in the NFL today study or coach under him in some way or another)

4. Chuck Noll (great coach and 4 SB rings/trophies

5. Tuna (turns around teams though I do believe he is a little hyped)

[RedskinsVision]

Gibbs #1 then Lombardi..

every year Lombardi coached he had at least 7 - 11 Hall of Fame players on his team including the same QB every year (B. Starr).. even his backup was another HOF in P. Hornung.. how many did Gibbs have in his entire tenure?? just 1 with J. Riggins.. and he played for him for only 5 years at that.. A. Monk and D. Green definitely deserve it and probably will go one day.. and hopefully at least 1 or 2 Hogs.. but thats still a stretch. check their yearly rosters.. Gibbs did it w/ less talent and in a period of time when there were more competition w/ better athletes.. don't cut our man so short by giving it to someone who has the trophy named after him just cuz he won the first 2.. and w/ the same 7-11 HOFers on every team.

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/teams.nsf/histories/packers/

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/teams.nsf/histories/redskins/

[VTSkins897]

joe gibbs

[bosshog001]

I voted Gibbs.....I cannot be objective on this question. I would like to know why it's hands down Lombardi?

I heard a great Lombardi story that speaks to his character.

My friend was telling me how he became a Packers fan today. It all started because when his mother went to high school in New Jersey, she was very close to her chemistry teacher. They kept in touch after graduation and every year when the Packers came to town to play the Giants, he would leave her family tickets to the game. He also gave my friend an autographed team ball from the 1962 championship team (which, unfortunately he used until it fell apart).

Obviously, the teacher was Lombardi. A story that wouldn't surprise anyone if it was Gibbs, but nobody would ever believe about Parcells.

[TwistyNiblet]

I voted Lombardi. Though Gibbs might overtake that status come January 2005...

[redwolf1218]

i think gibbs. walsh had joe montana, steve young, jerry rice, roger craig. others have tried it, but they didnt have all that talent to run it. the best ones are innovative. that west coast offense was and is good, but few had all that talent at their disposal. gibbs and don coryell's style can still be seen after all these years in the rams and chiefs offenses, among others. gibbs was always ahead of his time with the one-back offense, the hback, the counter trey, the hogs, all household words after all these years...winning with guys like rypien and williams, or even jay schroeder, cary conklin, stan humphries...the fun bunch, the smurfs, the posse, all completely different in style...runnings backs like eric metcalf, joe washington, ricky ervins, earnest byner, gerald riggs, george rogers, riggo, even timmy smith for one game, a record setting super bowl!...whatever the talent, he could adjust to it and win.

[AshlynSkins]

runnings backs like eric metcalf
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

great post redwolf but Metcalf never played under Gibbs, he wasn't here until the later 90's way after Gibbs left.

Metcalf was still w/the Browns (early in his career) when Gibbs last coached.

[redwolf1218]

runnings backs like eric metcalf
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

great post redwolf but Metcalf never played under Gibbs, he wasn't here until the later 90's way after Gibbs left.

Metcalf was still w/the Browns (early in his career) when Gibbs last coached.
oops you are right! i meant his dad:
Metcalf attended O'Connell High School in Arlington, Va., but said he never dreamed of playing for the Redskins. His dad played in Washington in 1981, at the end of his career.

''The year my dad was cut by the Redskins he had told me all summer they were going to the Super Bowl and they were going to win it,'' Metcalf said. ''And they did. That's one of my biggest memories.

[thickskin]

This is tough. Her's my list:

1. Lombardi
2. Parcells
2b Walsh
2c Gibbs(I think you can toss Gibbs, Walsh & BP into a hat and take them in any order)
5. Vermeil
6. Madden- both vermeil & madden were very good coaches but neither belong on this list w/ the top 4 guys above.

lady, you must be crazy

[redwolf1218]

Gibbs on the origin of the one-back offense, and the adjustments to lawrence taylor:
"In time, Riggins ended up alone in the backfield. We had Riggins at fullback and Terry Metcalf at tailback, and we were trying to stay in an I-formation," Gibbs said. "But Riggins didn't want to block. He wanted to run with the ball. And we certainly didn't want [the smaller] Metcalf blocking for him. We made changes and went to a one-back. The other thing we did was put in another tight end, especially to put him on [New York Giant] Lawrence Taylor's nose. We made some technical changes, and that's when we made our move and took off. Richie [Petitbon] and the guys on defense gradually got better."

[natgbz]

I missed one coach for this list, Chuck Noll.

Anyway here's how I rank them:

1. Lombardi
2. Gibbs
3. Walsh
4. Noll
5. Parcells
6. Madden
7. Vermeil

[IowaSkinsFan]

As much respect as I have for Lombardi, how can any self respecting Redskin fan not choose Gibbs?

[Death_Venom]

My personal belief is that Gibbs is the better coach purely because the BEAST (aka NFL) is far different now than it was back in the 60's & 70's. By that I mean egos are bigger, paychecks are bigger.........I think the defenses & offenses have grown more complex..........I am not totally convinced that Lombardi could have become a "great" coach in this NEW NFL..........But I won't knock his record-absolutely superb........ :honor:

[CowboyKilla]

Discussion, We might not be the best people to ask. Gibbs.

[nyjunc]

lady, you must be crazy

Please explain to me what is "crazy" about my list, ma'am?

[garedskin]

I know this is a Redskins fan site, but honestly... The correct answer is Vince Lombardi.


Sorry it HAS to be Gibbs.Gibbs won 3 titles with different players each time.Lombardi won his with the same cast of players. Gibbs hands down is the greatest coach period. Besides his greatest feat was in the strike season of 87 when he coached a whole team of college replacements to a perfect 3-0 and beat a veteran loaded Dallas cowboy team on a Monday night 13-7.That night convinced me he was the best of the best. :Peace:

[Spence]

Gibbs #1 then Lombardi..

every year Lombardi coached he had at least 7 - 11 Hall of Fame players on his team including the same QB every year (B. Starr).. even his backup was another HOF in P. Hornung.. how many did Gibbs have in his entire tenure??Lombardi put those guys in the Hall of Fame.

[Spence]

As much respect as I have for Lombardi, how can any self respecting Redskin fan not choose Gibbs?Because we respect the truth more than homerism.

[garedskin]

Because we respect the truth more than homerism.

Trueth is Lombardi had 11 HOF players. As of today the HOF voters say that Gibbs only had 1 HOF player on any of his teams.I think that he had more than 1 player deserving to be there but that is how the rest of the NFL views it.No HOF QB.Now that is a testament to his coaching ability.
Lombardi: Bart Starr
Noll: Bradshaw
Landry: Staubach
Walsh:Montana

[thickskin]

Please explain to me what is "crazy" about my list, ma'am?

nothing really, it's a good list. but if your #2 is a dead heat, is it too much to ask to order them alphabetically--seems only fair. how do youe see the head to head playing out between gibbs and parcells the next few years? i'm guessing when it's all said and done gibbs'll win 70% of their matchups, and i think we beat them twice this year.

[REDMAN]

I would rank Lombardi and Gibbs as 1 and 1a. Followed by Landry, Noll and Walsh. Parcells is just below them with Paul Brown.

[Spence]

Trueth is Lombardi had 11 HOF players. As of today the HOF voters say that Gibbs only had 1 HOF player on any of his teams.I think that he had more than 1 player deserving to be there but that is how the rest of the NFL views it.No HOF QB.Now that is a testament to his coaching ability.
Lombardi: Bart Starr
Noll: Bradshaw
Landry: Staubach
Walsh:MontanaI don't understand the relevance of this. It's not like Vince Lombardi is Phil Jackson, going from one great team to another, inheriting the best players in the game. Lombardi took over a team that was 1-10-1. In his first year he turned them into a winner. Those guys are in the HOF because Lombardi's coaching put them there. They were not winner or stars before Lombardi came along. He made them stars. Just as Bill Walsh made Joe Montana [a 3rd round pick] a star.

I don't understand why it is held against a coach that he turned a bunch of guys into stars. That's the very definition of a great coach.

[garedskin]

I don't understand the relevance of this. It's not like Vince Lombardi is Phil Jackson, going from one great team to another, inheriting the best players in the game. Lombardi took over a team that was 1-10-1. In his first year he turned them into a winner. Those guys are in the HOF because Lombardi's coaching put them there. They were not winner or stars before Lombardi came along. He made them stars. Just as Bill Walsh made Joe Montana [a 3rd round pick] a star.

I don't understand why it is held against a coach that he turned a bunch of guys into stars. That's the very definition of a great coach.

Lombardi won with stars.Gibbs won with a good football team with no stars( according to all the analists out there).All the coaches in the hall had several HOF players on there teams.Gibbs by all accounts had only 1 and that was from 81-85 after that the rest of the league says there where no players on his roster worthy of the HOF.He won championships with a lot less talented players than Lombardi or any other coach did.This is not a biased observation, it is all a fact. Lombardi was a great coach but If it boiled down to having him or Gibbs as my head coach with there resumes I would pick Gibbs.

[redwolf1218]

pretty good argument, with the differing views between coaches turning guys into stars by winning vs. coaches having stars to win with. what does it say about gibbs that he won championships with neither? he didnt have great stars nor did he turn alot of guys into hall of famers.

i'm adding a footnote to this post, because it reminded me of the patriots. they have neither big stars nor hall of famers yet, just a great coach. he should be included in the list of great coaches in years to come (if he continues to have success, which i think he will).

[Spence]

Lombardi won with stars.Gibbs won with a good football team with no stars( according to all the analists out there).All the coaches in the hall had several HOF players on there teams.Gibbs by all accounts had only 1 and that was from 81-85 after that the rest of the league says there where no players on his roster worthy of the HOF.He won championships with a lot less talented players than Lombardi or any other coach did.This is not a biased observation, it is all a fact.No, you are wrong. That is an opinion, biased or not. Who goes into the Hall of Fame is an opinion, not some exercise in factual empiricism. People on this website constantly complain about the number of Redskins not in the Hall of Fame and then use this argument to assert that Gibbs won with few or no stars. That strikes me as absolutely absurd.

Of course Lombardi won with stars. He made them stars. The Packers had no stars before Lombardi showed up. He made that team great. Because of their great records under Lombardi, the Packers regularly picked at or near the end of drafts. Nevertheless, Lombardi turned those players into winners. He did it in Washington in just a single year, working with other people's players and a team that hadn't had a winning season in almost 15 years. Just as Joe Gibbs made John Riggins a Hall of Famer, Vince Lombardi made his players stars and Hall of Famers. Lombardi went to six NFL championship games in nine years. He won five of them. Gibbs, as great as he was, cannot boast of anything similar to that. Gibbs never even won back-to-back championships, something accomplished by Lombardi, Shula, Noll, Johnson, and Shanahan.

[REDMAN]

Lombardi is the standerd that all other coaches used to be judged. If you are old enuff to remember.

[nyjunc]

nothing really, it's a good list. but if your #2 is a dead heat, is it too much to ask to order them alphabetically--seems only fair. how do youe see the head to head playing out between gibbs and parcells the next few years? i'm guessing when it's all said and done gibbs'll win 70% of their matchups, and i think we beat them twice this year.

I'm partial to BP after seeing what he did w/ my floundering franchise. Gibbs & Walsh each have 1 more SB ring but BP took 4 dead franchises and turned them around. The Giants were laughingstocks when he took over having made 1 playoff appearance in the previous 20 years, the Pats were as bad as you can be when he took over, the Jets hav won 4 games total the 2 previous years before he got here and Dallas won 5 games a year the previous 3 years. The man finished .500 w/ Ray Lucas at QB and made the playoffs w/ Quincy Carter- he's just amazing and that's why I listed him first but like I said those 3 are so close it's hard to seperate them.


As for who i think will have the head to head advantage btw BP and JG the next few years, i think we'll be seeing splits the next 2 years and I'll be very surprised if BP is still coaching after the '05 season.

[whistleandthumb]

I know this is a Redskins fan site, but honestly... The correct answer is Vince Lombardi.

Thank you. I know we all LOVE Gibbs, but, let's not pull wool over our eyes. Until Gibbs wins us three or four more championships, and only loses about 7 or 8 games TOTAL in the process, you HAVE to pick Lombardi.

Besides, Lombardi was a Redskin, too!!

[whistleandthumb]

Lombardi put those guys in the Hall of Fame.

I was going to make the same point, but you did it first. Spence, excellent posts!!

[RedskinsVision]

Great coaches like Lombardi and Gibbs make the bad players average.. the average player good.. the good player great.. and the great player into HOF potential.. but its the great players that goes into the HOF. No one coaches someone into the HOF. HOF is not about what coach that player had but the individual performance they put out on the field week in and week out. sure they're pushed to the top if they have a great coach.. but u don't turn an average player into a HOF player just cuz ur Lombardi or Gibbs. look at their rosters! Lombardi did it w/ the same players year in year out.. can you IMAGINE what Gibbs would've done if he had the same 7-11 HOFers on his team?? All these other great coaches had the same team w/ the same great players that made the coach look that much greater.. Gibbs have done it w/ less talent, stronger competition, in the FA era, bigger egos, bigger paychecks, playing in the toughest division, different QB and RB each time he won. no other coach can proclaim this! no matter how enamoured some of you are just by the name of the trophy u can't deny what Gibbs have done.

[redwolf1218]

Great coaches like Lombardi and Gibbs make the bad players average.. the average player good.. the good player great.. and the great player into HOF potential.. but its the great players that goes into the HOF. No one coaches someone into the HOF. HOF is not about what coach that player had but the individual performance they put out on the field week in and week out. sure they're pushed to the top if they have a great coach.. but u don't turn an average player into a HOF player just cuz ur Lombardi or Gibbs. look at their rosters! Lombardi did it w/ the same players year in year out.. can you IMAGINE what Gibbs would've done if he had the same 7-11 HOFers on his team?? All these other great coaches had the same team w/ the same great players that made the coach look that much greater.. Gibbs have done it w/ less talent, stronger competition, in the FA era, bigger egos, bigger paychecks, playing in the toughest division, different QB and RB each time he won. no other coach can proclaim this! no matter how enamoured some of you are just by the name of the trophy u can't deny what Gibbs have done.

good point.

Washington Redskin Timmy Smith accumulated 204 rushing yards—the most in a championship game—in the 1988 matchup against Denver.

you probably wont see that guy in the HOF. just an example.

[LifetimeRedskin]

People, people, people....come on.

Right now? Lombardi.

In three years? Gibbs.

The reason? You'll see.

[redwolf1218]

i wonder how many championships gibbs could have won if he had not taken 12 years off.

[RedskinsVision]

that would be unfathomable.. he might've worked himself to death.

greatness comes from within.. u don't teach greatness.. just like u can't teach height in basketball or speed.. u can't teach heart and determination.. and that's what HOF players are all about.. sure they give credit to the coach that helped get them there.. but they also thank their teachers in school and their mom and dad as well.. does that make their teachers and parents that much greater than the rest of ours? hopefully in 5 years Gibbs will put this argument to rest.

[whistleandthumb]

People, people, people....come on.

Right now? Lombardi.

In three years? Gibbs.

The reason? You'll see.

You may just be right. I don't know about 3 years, since I think Joe will need this year probably to get things right. But over the following four years, I think we're going to see a Washington Dynasty... thereby making Joe Gibbs, arguably, the greatest NFL coach ever.

But for now, I still say Lombardi.

[funnyperson1]

I'm with LifetimeRedskin, if Gibbs wins another couple Lombardi trophies (I know you love the irony) then yes, he would be my pick for greatest coach of all time.


Originally Posted by nyjunc
This is tough. Her's my list:

1. Lombardi
2. Parcells
2b Walsh
2c Gibbs(I think you can toss Gibbs, Walsh & BP into a hat and take them in any order)
5. Vermeil
6. Madden- both vermeil & madden were very good coaches but neither belong on this list w/ the top 4 guys above.

I actually don't disagree with this list very much. The only thing I would really change is I would rank Gibbs ahead of Walsh because of the fact that Walsh had Montana and Rice.

As much as I hate to admit, Parcells won most of the games when both were in the NFC East. The winner will be decided by who does better this time. Of course I'll take 3 superbowls over 2 anyday :p.

[Spence]

The only problem I have with Parcells is that he hasn't closed the deal a few times. He couldn't finish in New England and he couldn't finish with the New York Jets. Well, to be precise, he might have been able to finish, but he got tired of it with the Jets and he couldn't get along with the owner in Boston. There is no doubt, however, that Parcells gave Gibbs more trouble than any other coach he faced.

I think Madden should not be on the list. He won one Super Bowl, which is not even the most by any Raiders coach. [I think Tom Flores won two Super Bowls.] During his time Madden was actually considered something of a lightweight--Al Davis' puppet on the sidelines. I'm not sure that is fair, but I think the only reason a lot of people consider Madden one of the greatest of all time is the tremendous success he has had in broadcasting.

[I happen to think Madden is one of the most overrated sports broadcasters ever, but that's a different conversation.]

[Keino]

Vince Lombardi had a better regular season winning percentage than Joe Gibbs and his postseason record is still the best in NFL history. In nine years of coaching the Packers, Lombardi missed the playoffs only once, his first year. He took over a team that had a 1-10-1 record in 1958 and immediately turned them around, leading the Packers to a 7-5-2 record in 1959. Before Lombardi came along, the Packers had not had a winning record since 1947. In nine seasons as Packers coach, Lombardi went to six NFL championship games and won five of them. He also won the first two Super Bowl championships, before retiring as head coach of the Packers after the 1967 season.

Lombardi took over the Washington Redskins as head coach in 1969. The Redskins had not had a winning season since 1955. Lombardi immediately turned them around, too, leading the Redskins to a 7-5-2 record. He died in 1970 during the offseason. Lombardi never had a losing season. Gibbs had one, in 1988. Lombardi's teams never even finished at .500. Gibbs finished at .500 once, in 1981.

Gibbs' coaching career is great. Lombardi's is greater.

However, one can make the argument that Gibbs coached in an era with more teams thus dilluting the talent pool. Secondly, playing against more teams makes it more difficult to make the playoffs and have winning records. Joe Gibbs never coached in a 14 game season. Not to mention the quality of athlete. I would argue that Gibbs had a comparable level of achievement under much more difficult circumstances.

As for your "We like truth not blatent homerism" or somehting to that effect, Truth is Absolute, and I haven't seen any evidence that Lombardi is absolutely the better of the 2 coaches.

Robert summed it up best for me. No self-respecting Redskin fan would name anyone other than Joe Gibbs as greatest coach, especially given that their accomplishments are comparable.

[Spence]

However, one can make the argument that Gibbs coached in an era with more teams thus dilluting the talent pool. Secondly, playing against more teams makes it more difficult to make the playoffs and have winning records. Joe Gibbs never coached in a 14 game season. Not to mention the quality of athlete. I would argue that Gibbs had a comparable level of achievement under much more difficult circumstances.Why were Gibbs' circumstances more difficult? Everything Gibbs had to coach with, all the other coaches in the league had to coach with. And I don't see why playing against more teams makes it difficult to make the playoffs and have a winning record. Why? And if the talent pool was more diluted for Gibbs, it was more diluted for all the coaches Gibbs coached against. So that should even out entirely.

As for your "We like truth not blatent homerism" or somehting to that effect, Truth is Absolute, and I haven't seen any evidence that Lombardi is absolutely the better of the 2 coaches.Well, I think I've laid out plenty of evidence. Evidence that I'm fairly sure the vast majority of observers who are not fans of the Redskins or the Packers would find absolutely convincing. But in the end, of course, this is all opinion.

Robert summed it up best for me. No self-respecting Redskin fan would name anyone other than Joe Gibbs as greatest coach, especially given that their accomplishments are comparable.Five NFL championships and two more Super Bowls in nine years compared to three Super Bowls in 12 years. One coach clearly won more. More games and more championships. But I don't see what any of this should have to do with being a Redskins fan. Acknowledging Vince Lombardi as the greatest NFL coach in history does nothing to dishonor Joe Gibbs. When the subject of who I hope wins on Sunday comes up, my heart will always belong to the Redskins. But when the someone asks for my opinion about something, I lead with my head. Always.

[Keino]

Sure you laid out plenty of evidence and it convinces me that they were comparable. Strike Shortened seasons, Roster turnover, Dilluted talent pool are all in my personal opinion factors that made it more difficult for Gibbs than it did for Lombardi. The way the game evolved in terms of defensive complexity and in terms of the the quality of athlete made it more difficult for Gibbs. I would think that the number of teams competing for the same number of playoffs would be mathematically obvious and didn't require explanation as to why a league with More teams, playing more games makes making the playoffs more difficult (in addition to the increased chance of injury). The Speed of the game.........Frankly I have more respect for Gibbs and Walsh than I do for Lombardi.
His name is on the trophy because he won the 1st superbowl, not because he is the greatest coach (again in my opinion). In fact, I think a stronger case can be made for George Halas if you don't buy into the notion that the changes in the game made it more difficult for Gibbs....Halas was certainly more of an innovator than Lombardi was......

[bosshog001]

Can I change my vote. The Lombardi folks have made me remove my Burgundy colored glasses. Its still very close, but Lombardi is the man.

[redwolf1218]

how many teams were in the league when lombardi coached?

[RedskinsVision]

how many teams were in the league when lombardi coached?

http://www.nflhistoryguide.com/

In 1966 the two leagues agreed on a merger plan. The first AFL-NFL World Championship Game, featuring the AFL-champion Chiefs and the NFL-champion Packers, was played in January 1967. The Packers won the contest, later renamed Super Bowl I, 35-10. In 1968 the Packers defeated the AFL's Oakland Raiders in Super Bowl II, but the game validated the AFL's talent. In 1969 the AFL's Jets defeated the Colts in a huge upset in Super Bowl III. In 1970, the leagues merged into two 13-team conferences under the NFL name. The Browns, Colts, and Pittsburgh Steelers joined the 10 AFL teams to form the AFC, and the remaining NFL teams formed the NFC.

2 leagues each w/ 13 teams.. and the NFL was clearly the dominant league w/ the AFL trying to come into it's own at that time.. and note that after Lombardi's time was when defenses became relevant.

During the early 1970s offensive play suffered as result of complex defensive strategies. Three coaches in particular, Tom Landry of the Dallas Cowboys, Chuck Noll of the Steelers, and Don Shula of the Miami Dolphins, created defensive tactics that closed passing lanes and forced offenses to rely on running the ball. The shift resulted in defensive units with names such as the Doomsday Defense of the Cowboys, the Steelers' Steel Curtain, the Minnesota Vikings' Purple People Eaters, and the Los Angeles Rams' Fearsome Foursome.

[Spence]

Keino, I think what matters is not the number of teams in the league, which I think is irrelevant, but the number of playoff spots. There are more playoff spots now and were more playoff spots when Gibbs coached than with Lombardi coached. Ergo, it was tougher to make the playoffs back then. Injury issues cut both ways. Other teams lost players to injuries and that helped Gibbs, too. That's a wash. What it basically comes down to is who won more. By that standard, Lombardi was the greatest. Everything else is just guesswork. The one thing that matters the most is the one thing that can be easily and surely measured. Who won more?

[AGibbsGirl]

This thread sure is a lot like the other one...I brought up Chuck Noll in the other one because he has 4 SB wins and he's not even listed here?

When it comes right down to it....it's all about the trophies boys.

I'm not sure if anything else matters in the long run.

I mean look at poor Marv Levy, went to the SB 4 years in a row, Yet doesn't even get a mention here, why? Because he never won the big one!!!

1) Chuck Noll : 4 Trophies

2) Joe Gibbs : 3 Trophies
3) Bill Walsh : 3 Trophies
3) Vince Lombardi : 2 Trophies
4) Bill Parcells : 2 Trophies
5) Dick Vermeil : 1 Trophy
5) John Madden : 1 Trophy

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

i wonder how many championships gibbs could have won if he had not taken 12 years off.
That's a great great point.... How many coaches can win a SB in only their second season??? For the Girls fan out there, I will not include Switzer, nor I will include Seifert, who took over with a team already accomplished. Gibbs did it with a bunch of unknown players (not everybody, don't shoot me). If he had been in the league since then he retired, he would have minimum 2 SB more.

I understand the point about Lombardi winning with HOF players, while Gibbs did it without them, also understand that Lombardi MADE them HOF players. The difference I see here is that Lombardi made HOF-talented players go to the HOF. Gibbs made average-good players look like HOF players. Despite all the similarities in their system and football aproach in general, it's very tough to compare these two. A lot of different variables to be able to measure them like Better-Worse....

I will pick Gibbs, but hey! I'm a Redskins' fan in love with Joe.... Can't blame me. Maybe my judgement is not very clear. It hasn't since I'm a REDSKINS' Fan!!!!!!!

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

This thread sure is a lot like the other one...I brought up Chuck Noll in the other one because he has 4 SB wins and he's not even listed here?

When it comes right down to it....it's all about the trophies boys.

I'm not sure if anything else matters in the long run.

I mean look at poor Marv Levy, went to the SB 4 years in a row, Yet doesn't even get a mention here, why? Because he never won the big one!!!

1) Chuck Noll : 4 Trophies

2) Joe Gibbs : 3 Trophies
3) Bill Walsh : 3 Trophies
3) Vince Lombardi : 2 Trophies
4) Bill Parcells : 2 Trophies
5) Dick Vermeil : 1 Trophy
5) John Madden : 1 Trophy
Now maybe we can divide them between the number of years they were in the league. Gibbs coached for, what? 10 years???? (As HC) That's a SB/years ratio of 3.3333!!! How many years wash Noll the HC of the Steelers? I guess it was around 15+ years, so the ratio is nearly 4. Now Noll did it with the same core of players: Bradshaw, Harris, Swann, Stallworth, Lambert, Greene, Blount, Greenwood, Stam, Shell, etc... everybody knows them... how many non-Redskins fan can name over 10 players who were part of the 3 Redskins' SB teams??? There weren't even 10 players... not even Darrell Green. I will guess it would be tough to somebody (again, non-redskins fan) to name 10 players of 1 SB team. That's a big big plus to Joe Gibbs.

[Keino]

Keino, I think what matters is not the number of teams in the league, which I think is irrelevant, but the number of playoff spots. There are more playoff spots now and were more playoff spots when Gibbs coached than with Lombardi coached. Ergo, it was tougher to make the playoffs back then. Injury issues cut both ways. Other teams lost players to injuries and that helped Gibbs, too. That's a wash. What it basically comes down to is who won more. By that standard, Lombardi was the greatest. Everything else is just guesswork. The one thing that matters the most is the one thing that can be easily and surely measured. Who won more?

I dunno, I think that oversimplifies the issue. Sure everythng else is guesswork, but what else do we have to do? It's the off-season. If we're going to simply say "who won more?" then my point about Halas becomes magnified.

AGG - I hear ya, but if Superbowl trophies are the only standard, then what about all the great coaches before 1967?

[Spence]

This thread sure is a lot like the other one...I brought up Chuck Noll in the other one because he has 4 SB wins and he's not even listed here?

When it comes right down to it....it's all about the trophies boys.

I'm not sure if anything else matters in the long run.

I mean look at poor Marv Levy, went to the SB 4 years in a row, Yet doesn't even get a mention here, why? Because he never won the big one!!!

1) Chuck Noll : 4 Trophies

2) Joe Gibbs : 3 Trophies
3) Bill Walsh : 3 Trophies
3) Vince Lombardi : 2 Trophies
4) Bill Parcells : 2 Trophies
5) Dick Vermeil : 1 Trophy
5) John Madden : 1 TrophyThis ignores all the work coaches did in the years before the Super Bowl. Lombardi won FIVE NFL championships, in addition to his two Super Bowl victories. That's seven total championships.

[bosshog001]

This ignores all the work coaches did in the years before the Super Bowl. Lombardi won FIVE NFL championships, in addition to his two Super Bowl victories. That's seven total championships.

A much better way to look at it. Yes, the NFL did exist before the Super Bowl.

[AGibbsGirl]

A much better way to look at it. Yes, the NFL did exist before the Super Bowl.

Keino, Spence and bosshog001...all 3 of you make very good points

But then the list looked to me to hold only modern day coaches, so I didn't consider the pre-SB era coaches( ...not that I know all that much about them anyway....:D)

When you factor in the Championships then Lombardi has the edge.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

Why isn't George Halas in that list? I think he was a great great coach.

[bosshog001]

I also looked up Ray Flaherty, arguably the best coach in Redskins history. 6 years 2 championships .713 winning percentage is the best in team history. Coaching career was cut short by WWII. Surprisingly, the Redskins didn't give him back his job when he returned.

[garedskin]

This ignores all the work coaches did in the years before the Super Bowl. Lombardi won FIVE NFL championships, in addition to his two Super Bowl victories. That's seven total championships.

Sorry wrong once again it is 5 counting the 2 Superbowls.3 NFL championships 61,62 and 65.It went to a Superbowl game in 66 and 67. He lost to the eagles in 60 his second year as head coach.The Superbowl in 66 was the 1st game between the NFL and AFL played that was not a pre season game.The 2 games against the cowboys in 66 and 67 where NFL championship games. The winner won the right to face the AFL champion in the superbowl.If you want to throw the dallas games in 66 and 67 then that adds up to 7 total.With that being the case throw in Gibbs 4 NFC Championships(82,83,87,91) then he also would have lucky #7.Gibbs also lost a NFC championship in 86 to the N.Y.Giants.In Lombardis day there where only 14 teams in the NFL. During the regular 14 game season Lombardi played against a total of 8 different teams,12 games came against just 6 different teams in Gibbs day there where 28 teams in the NFL. Gibbs faced 12 different teams during a 16 game season.Gibbs played 8 of his games against 4 different teams. My point is that Gibbs had to prepare for at least 12 different coaching styles a season.This does not count the playoffs.One last tidbit Gibbs is the only coach to miss the playoffs twice with 10 wins(85 ang 89) during the regular season. :D

[Keino]

Good Post Gared. I contend that if Gibbs isn't the greatest, then it must be Halas

[bosshog001]

I'm not sure, but didn't fewer teams make the playoffs when Lombardi was coaching. Making his champioships a tad more impressive than when Gibbs did it and 5 teams per conference made the playoffs?

[bosshog001]

For comparison:

Halas 324-151-31 (.671), and six NFL championships, in 40 years

Shula 347-172-6 (.669), 2 Championships in 32 years

Lombardi 96-34-6 (.738) and 5 championships in 10 years

Gibbs 124-60 (.674) , 3 championships in 12 years

Noll 209-156-1 (.572), 4 championships

From an objective point of view it doesn't seem possible to make a case for Lombardi over Gibbs, better winning percentage and more championships in less years. I don't buy the whole different time thing, that cuts both ways.

[bosshog001]

By the way these are overall records including playoffs as best as my limited internet time could figure.

[IndianBaller27]

damn.... im not jokin around or anything... but i accidentally voted for vermiel.... i was gonna vote for vince lombardi

[garedskin]

By the way these are overall records including playoffs as best as my limited internet time could figure.

124-60-0 :Peace: That is just regular season stats.He was 16-5 in post season play so his over all record is 140-65-0.

[tommahawk]

For comparison:

Halas 324-151-31 (.671), and six NFL championships, in 40 years

Shula 347-172-6 (.669), 2 Championships in 32 years

Lombardi 96-34-6 (.738) and 5 championships in 10 years

Gibbs 124-60 (.674) , 3 championships in 12 years

Noll 209-156-1 (.572), 4 championships

From an objective point of view it doesn't seem possible to make a case for Lombardi over Gibbs, better winning percentage and more championships in less years. I don't buy the whole different time thing, that cuts both ways.
[INDENT]What I love about this list is look who's at #4 and ready to move up.