Wrapping up BEST EVER: Redskins BEST EVER Offensive Player

[PennSkinsFan]

With the off-season winding down, so is our annual BEST EVER SERIES (http://www.hailredskins.com/BestEver.htm). With all Offense, Defense, and Draft Picks selected, now we will do the final three, Best Ever Offensive Player, Defensive Player, and Special Teams.

Up now, BEST EVER OFFENSIVE PLAYER The chocies are the players awarded Best Ever at each offensive position.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Ohh, first vote.

Sammy Baugh. Could have made a case for Monk and Taylor, but in the end, I went with the best passer in Redskins history.

[fent]

had to go with Monk...one of the few i actually saw play and man was he impressive.

[Beast56Redskin]

riggins! that man was a mack truck

[Perrynoid]

honk honk - toot toot! here comes "THE DIESEL"-

I also went with Riggins #44.
His character & attitude was the deciding factor for me.

[PennSkinsFan]

Despite how much i like Riggins and Monk, I just don't think they compare to Sammy Baugh, in fact, I would put Baugh up there as one fo the best ever in the NFL.

[HanburgerBum]

Wow, Sonny didn't even make the candidates list. This is a very tough vote. My final 3 came down to Lachey, Baugh and Riggo. I came in toward the very tail end of Baugh's career and I don't feel as qualified to evaluate him as the other two. Lachey was the best Redskins offensive lineman I ever saw, but there is just something about Riggo. He was perfect for the power running game. And the thing I liked best about him is that he never fumbled. In his entire Redskins career (what, maybe around 2000 carries), he put the ball on the ground TWICE! I believe I am right about this, since I think I saw every game Riggo ever played for Washington. Tiki Barber would be lucky not to fumble twice in one game.

[fent]

Wow, Sonny didn't even make the candidates list. This is a very tough vote. My final 3 came down to Lachey, Baugh and Riggo. I came in toward the very tail end of Baugh's career and I don't feel as qualified to evaluate him as the other two. Lachey was the best Redskins offensive lineman I ever saw, but there is just something about Riggo. He was perfect for the power running game. And the thing I liked best about him is that he never fumbled. In his entire Redskins career (what, maybe around 2000 carries), he put the ball on the ground TWICE! I believe I am right about this, since I think I saw every game Riggo ever played for Washington. Tiki Barber would be lucky not to fumble twice in one game.

58 fumbles in just over 2900 career carries...not quite as good as 2, but still VERY impressive.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

It has to bee Sammy Baugh. One of the best ever.

[IMALILTEAPOT]

Tiki Barber and Riggins should never be mentioned in the same sentence.(excuse mine)

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

im basing my vote on history alone, as i have never seen sammy baugh play......but i voted him.

[Keino]

One only need to look at my Avatar to know who got my vote. How the Franchise leader in TD's can only get one vote (MINE) is beyond me.

With all due respect to Slingin Sammy, I find it impossible to vote for a player from an era when the average Defensive Tackle was 5'11 and weighed 190 pounds and probably ran a 6.2 40 (Unsubstantiated speculation as they didn't time people in the 40 back then). Slinging Sammy was great, there is no doubt about it, but I cannot in good conscience vote for a player from the era of Leather Helmets and Cardboard Shoulder Pads as the greatest Redskins player. If I could divide my vote between Pre-Superbowl Era and Modern Era, then Sammy would definately get the nod on pre-superbowl era, but alas, I cannot and so Charley Taylor gets my vote.

All-time Franchise leader in Touchdowns. All I ask is that you give that particular fact some consideration before logging your votes......

[BledBrgndy&Gld]

i have got to go with either Shuler or Desmond Howard.

[BadSkin]

well, i'm missing two superstars: earnest & stephen, they did a lot for burgundy/gold.
my choice is earnest byner, but for voting is the most impressiv wr of all: the incredible art monk

[Wild Bore]

I voted for Sammy Baugh, although I believe Bobby Mitchell was the best ever offensive player.

[flave1969]

I have to say Art Monk. He was quite simply our most consistent player throughout the 80's and into the 90's. His numbers speak for themselves, but like all the other greats on this fine list, it was the intangibles Art bought to the team, week in and week out that make him so special. He was the archetypal big receiver, the archetypal receiver who made the tough yards across the middle. I have no doubt Art would have had 100 touchdowns if he had been in the same position as Steve Largent, the sole great WR on a poor team. Art was surrounded by talent, but he made that talent shine. I find the argument often used against Art in getting to the HOF, that he was not the number one TD target on the team a fallacy. Receivers like Charlie Brown, Ricky Sanders, Gary Clark always found one on one situations because teams could not double cover them because Art was always underneath, sure handed picking up First Downs moving the chains. Quite simply he made his team-mates look great. He does not credit for the things that make him one of the greatest receivers of all time. Simply, I voted for #81 because he meant the most too me in a Redskin shirt.

[IndianBaller27]

Sammy Baugh

[Axegrinder]

Sammy Baugh,he was head and shoulders the best of his era.

[BurgundyNGold]

No disrespect to the other nominees, but Slingin' Sammy was the Jim Brown of his day.

[BurgundyNGold]

One only need to look at my Avatar to know who got my vote. How the Franchise leader in TD's can only get one vote (MINE) is beyond me.

With all due respect to Slingin Sammy, I find it impossible to vote for a player from an era when the average Defensive Tackle was 5'11 and weighed 190 pounds and probably ran a 6.2 40 (Unsubstantiated speculation as they didn't time people in the 40 back then). Slinging Sammy was great, there is no doubt about it, but I cannot in good conscience vote for a player from the era of Leather Helmets and Cardboard Shoulder Pads as the greatest Redskins player. If I could divide my vote between Pre-Superbowl Era and Modern Era, then Sammy would definately get the nod on pre-superbowl era, but alas, I cannot and so Charley Taylor gets my vote.

All-time Franchise leader in Touchdowns. All I ask is that you give that particular fact some consideration before logging your votes......
Agreed that Baugh was not surrounded by anything approaching the modern athlete, but that doesn't mean he was any less innovative. Up until Sammy, you could get away without generating much of a pass rush because folks hardly EVER passed. We might attribute the evolution to larger, faster players to the passing frenzy that Baugh started and the AFL later made such a prominent part of football as we know it.

Besides, we wouldn't take away from Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Russell for being so dominant because of the level of competition. We wouldn't take anything away from Jesse Owens because of his level of competition. Or for that matter, Jim Brown. Or Lance Armstrong. As with these other greats, Slingin' Sammy just beat the h3ll out of the competition that he had. That should be the measure.

JMO :D

[Seebs]

Slinging Sammy

[frenchskinsfan]

Riggins was the modern times best, he was a tremendous weapon and a part of his soul is still haunting the whole team and us fans. He had the redskin spirit inside him, and he was one of the best ever RB's in the game.
But my vote for "all-time" best goes to Sammy Baugh, a player who not only defined the redskins' offense for decades, but defined the quarterback position for the game itself.

[Keino]

Agreed that Baugh was not surrounded by anything approaching the modern athlete, but that doesn't mean he was any less innovative. Up until Sammy, you could get away without generating much of a pass rush because folks hardly EVER passed. We might attribute the evolution to larger, faster players to the passing frenzy that Baugh started and the AFL later made such a prominent part of football as we know it.

Besides, we wouldn't take away from Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Russell for being so dominant because of the level of competition. We wouldn't take anything away from Jesse Owens because of his level of competition. Or for that matter, Jim Brown. Or Lance Armstrong. As with these other greats, Slingin' Sammy just beat the h3ll out of the competition that he had. That should be the measure.

JMO :D


Sure, we can't take away from Jesse Owens Greatness, but Carl Lewis smashed his records, so I would rank them Lewis then Owens in that order. Same with Wilt and Russell. Jordan, Bird and Magic rank ahead of both of those guys on my all-time list, because they were better players playing against superior competition. I don't even think Sammy was the best Redskins QB of all-time, as that distinction goes to Mr. Jurgenson.

For me this vote was simple. "Best offensive player of all-time". What is the goal of offense? To score TD's. Who's scored the most TD's for this franchise during his career? Not Sammy Baugh. Not John Riggins either. It was Charley Taylor...who by the way revolutionized the position as much as player in his era could. I don't think anyone would argue that Elroy "Crazy Legs" Hirsch is a better WR than Jerry Rice, because he was the first to revolutionize the position.

I'll add one more comment. Baugh was a Great Football Player, not just a great QB. Part of what makes him great was his Punting, Kicking and Defensive Back skill on top of what he did at QB. The closest thing we have seen to that big of a contriubition out of one player in the NFL is Deion Sanders playing both ways. If this were "Best Football Player", I'd have a hard time arguing for anyone but Baugh, but Offensively, his numbers don't even stack up to Jurgensons, who shamefully is not on this list.

[garedskin]

Tough list to choose from.Picked Taylor. :Peace:

[Wild Bore]

Sure, we can't take away from Jesse Owens Greatness, but Carl Lewis smashed his records, so I would rank them Lewis then Owens in that order. Same with Wilt and Russell. Jordan, Bird and Magic rank ahead of both of those guys on my all-time list, because they were better players playing against superior competition. I don't even think Sammy was the best Redskins QB of all-time, as that distinction goes to Mr. Jurgenson.


Keino, I think you have to rank a player's greatness against the peers of his time, not with future players. All sports and all athletes get bigger, stronger, better over time. Darwin taught us that. All you have to do is to look at any measured sport like track and swimming, or look at the tricks being performed by today's gymnasts compared to yesteryear . Did you know that all seven of Mark Spitz's 1972 world records have been broken? Did you know they were all broken by girls?

Same goes for teams. The worst team today would massacre the best of Lombardi's Packer teams of the 60's. Think of it, the lineman are on average 100 pounds bigger. But who would say the 60's Green Bay Packers weren't some of the BEST EVER?

[Keino]

Keino, I think you have to rank a player's greatness against the peers of his time, not with future players. All sports and all athletes get bigger, stronger, better over time. Darwin taught us that. All you have to do is to look at any measured sport like track and swimming, or look at the tricks being performed by today's gymnasts compared to yesteryear . Did you know that all seven of Mark Spitz's 1972 world records have been broken? Did you know they were all broken by girls?

Same goes for teams. The worst team today would massacre the best of Lombardi's Packer teams of the 60's. Think of it, the lineman are on average 100 pounds bigger. But who would say the 60's Green Bay Packers weren't some of the BEST EVER?

There is no doubt that that Baugh is the best player on the Redskins of his era. The question asks us to opine who the best offensive player of all-time is, not the best player of all time relative to his peers. I disagree that this particular questions asks us to measure the players listed against their peers, rather it asks us to measure against the accomplishments of the other players listed. That being the case, I cannot vote for Baugh. Again, Baugh is a Superior Football player, but superior Offensive player he is not. That players only get better as time goes on only makes my point.

Mark Spitz couldn't beat the female swimmers of today. Thats doesn't take away from his accomplishments, but it certainly means he cannot be considered the Best Swimmer of all-time, as he couldn't touch the Phelps kid...the raw data proves this.

I agree that the measure of teams' greatness can only be measured against their competition. There aren't raw stats in which to make fair comparisons. Things like winning 5 straight Championships make the Green Bay teams great, not their individual personnell.

My main issue is that I don't feel Taylor gets the respect he deserves on this site.

[Wild Bore]

I disagree that this particular questions asks us to measure the players listed against their peers, rather it asks us to measure against the accomplishments of the other players listed.

My main issue is that I don't feel Taylor gets the respect he deserves on this site.

I disagree with your first point and agree with your second.

With respect to your first point, all you CAN do is measure a player against their peers. Otherwise, the later athlete will always win. Due to the advances in sport, diet, science and medicine, I am sure Walt Harris is a better athlete that Pat Fischer, for example, or McCants may be a better athlete than Taylor. It doesn't diminish the feats of the earlier athlete. Gosh, Babe Ruth wouldn't even make pro today.

Having said that, I couldn't agree more with your second point and even extend it further. None of the previous greats garner the respect they deserve. I find on these polls that more current Redskins always beat the greats from the past. For example, how in the world can Rock Cartwright get 8 votes as the BEST EVER seventh rounder? Or, on this site, Chris Hanburger was voted the Redskins best ever linebacker but couldn't even be the best ever late round draft choice (he was beaten by another linebacker. ???) Gary Clark is listed as best ever runnerup WR. HOFer Bobby Mitchell was much better. It bugs the hell out of me (witness my rant on the last best ever thread.)

[Minnesota Mike]

I'm usually all about the O-line. So I wanted to pick and O-lineman. Which is what I did. I just picked one that carried the ball - Riggo.

[Keino]

I disagree with your first point and agree with your second.

With respect to your first point, all you CAN do is measure a player against their peers. Otherwise, the later athlete will always win. Due to the advances in sport, diet, science and medicine, I am sure Walt Harris is a better athlete that Pat Fischer, for example, or McCants may be a better athlete than Taylor. It doesn't diminish the feats of the earlier athlete. Gosh, Babe Ruth wouldn't even make pro today.

Having said that, I couldn't agree more with your second point and even extend it further. None of the previous greats garner the respect they deserve. I find on these polls that more current Redskins always beat the greats from the past. For example, how in the world can Rock Cartwright get 8 votes as the BEST EVER seventh rounder? Or, on this site, Chris Hanburger was voted the Redskins best ever linebacker but couldn't even be the best ever late round draft choice (he was beaten by another linebacker. ???) Gary Clark is listed as best ever runnerup WR. HOFer Bobby Mitchell was much better. It bugs the hell out of me (witness my rant on the last best ever thread.)

Actually you agree with my first point...Kinda.
Yes the newer player will always win out. The greatest of all time should be for the guy who sets the standard right? Using the swimming example, Spitz was the greatest until someone came along and bested him. Now he is no longer the greatest. Thank you for mentioning Babe Ruth as it has always been my contention that he is THE most overrated Basbeball player ever. Those who argue always use the "When he hit 61 Homers the next best guy hit 17". OK so Babe is the greatest because the rest of his Comp sucked? He didn't have to play night games, and the pitchers threw puss. He wasn't half the player Willie Mays,Mickey Mantle and Barry Bonds is/were. What about the fact that the best athletes of the day were barred from the major leagues. Josh Gibson was every bit the hitter that Babe was and a better Fielder to boot.
Football was also a segregated sport when Baugh played, another reason I discount players from the "cardboard shoulder pads" era. Because they weren't playing the best competition of their day as a function of league policy/law. Not their fault, but they benefitted with possibly inflated stats, so I do hold it against them in the final analysis.


I agree the feats aren't dimished, but as they get bested, the players get knocked down a rung or too on the "Greatest of All-time" Ladder.

[suppitty]

Cant vote for anyone i havent been alive to seen so ill go with monk.

[Wild Bore]

Soo, then, Rock maybe should've got eight votes?

[Minnesota Mike]

Using the swimming example, Spitz was the greatest until someone came along and bested him. Now he is no longer the greatest.


Spitz still is. 7 events = 7 Gold Medals.
Phelps- 8 events = 6 Gold (and 2 Bronze).

It is off the subject of this thread, but I still put Spitz on top of that list.

[Jimskin]

Joe Jacoby, Class Guy, Real Redskin

[HanburgerBum]

58 fumbles in just over 2900 career carries...not quite as good as 2, but still VERY impressive.

Well, I am really surprised by the 58 total fumbles because I think I saw every Redskins game Riggo played in. Unless, of course, if a good number of them occurred when he played with the Jets.

I just don't remember Riggo hardly ever fumbling. Your figures have him putting one on the ground every 50 carries (that's about one for every game and a half and about 8-10 for a season). It is just not my impression that Riggo put that many on the ground. Of course, it could be that my memory is bad. May I ask what is the source of your information?

[ihatedallas]

although i agree that baugh had incredible talent i voted riggo becuase, as hanburgerbum said, he only fumbled twice ever,and he was just incredible

[LATrueRedskin]

I'm too young to catch Baugh play, so I chose Monk. The numbers and the rings say it all.

[Keino]

Spitz still is. 7 events = 7 Gold Medals.
Phelps- 8 events = 6 Gold (and 2 Bronze).

It is off the subject of this thread, but I still put Spitz on top of that list.

All of Spitz's times have been crushed. Phelps is the greatest right now, if I had to do the list today......I think that is the crux of the disagreement between Bore and myself......

[Keino]

Soo, then, Rock maybe should've got eight votes?


I think you know I don't agree with that. What has Rock Accomplished? Oh yeah he made the team a couple of times......

[Wild Bore]

All of Spitz's times have been crushed. Phelps is the greatest right now, if I had to do the list today......I think that is the crux of the disagreement between Bore and myself......

I am not sure what the disagreement is. You originally said that your main problem was that Charlie Taylor doesn't get the respect he deserves. I agree. He was one of the best. One of my heroes growing up. Next to Sonny of course (did i mention I was Sonny's paperboy?).

But then you go on to argue why Charlie should not be considered the greatest by detailing how the modern athlete has surpassed all these feats, including, presumably, Charley Taylor's. If that's your feeling, then why wouldn't you vote for Art Monk, who broke most of his team receiving records? Or, by extension, why wouldn't you vote for Cliff Russell or Taylor Jacobs? Absurb. Yes. Because you are evaluating Taylor's career against the peers of his time.

You mention that you can't vote for Baugh because he played with cardboard shoulder pads, leather helmets, and no face guards (God I admire that.) But you know what, Taylor played with a single bar face mask, no knee pads and those small receiver shoulder pads! And you know what... They allowed STICKUM in those days!!!! Can you imagine!

You argue that Taylor holds the touchdown record. But Baugh holds the record for touchdown passes at 187, almost twice that of Taylor. That is only his touchdown passes. It does not include rushes. Remember, he was not a quarterback for the first 7 or so seasons.

You know what? I love Charlie Taylor and Sonny Jurgensen and Bobby Mitchell and Chris Hanburger and Jerry Smith and Sammy Baugh. I also love the hogs and Riggo and Theisman and Monk. I just want people to have perspective and realize who the truly great Redskins were, just like you. Rock? Iffy? not!!

[Keino]

You mention that you can't vote for Baugh because he played with cardboard shoulder pads, leather helmets, and no face guards (God I admire that.) But you know what, Taylor played with a single bar face mask, no knee pads and those small receiver shoulder pads! And you know what... They allowed STICKUM in those days!!!! Can you imagine!



You know what.... I am contradicting myself. I always say Taylor was the Jerry Rice of his day who I acknowledge to be the greatest of all time. I guess it just boils down to not having much respect for the era of football Sammy played in and that is simply not fair. I vote for Taylor because he is my favorite Redskin without question.

As for the above quoted text...they not only allowed stickum, contact was allowed with the receiver until the ball was in the air and no rules protecting the QB, all things in today's game that allow for inflated stats

[Wild Bore]

As for the above quoted text...they not only allowed stickum, contact was allowed with the receiver until the ball was in the air and no rules protecting the QB, all things in today's game that allow for inflated stats

You are absolutely correct. It made it much harder in that era. When they changed the contact rule, I always called the rule change the "anti-George Allen" rule, because he was the one the one who pioneered cutting the receivers down at the line of scrimmage. Remember that? I can still see Pat Fischer and Mike Bass levelling receivers before they even got going. You couldn't be a prima donna if you were a WR Charlie Taylor's day.

[Keino]

You are absolutely correct. It made it much harder in that era. When they changed the contact rule, I always called the rule change the "anti-George Allen" rule, because he was the one the one who pioneered cutting the receivers down at the line of scrimmage. Remember that? I can still see Pat Fischer and Mike Bass levelling receivers before they even got going. You couldn't be a prima donna if you were a WR Charlie Taylor's day.

Unfortunately, all the guys we are talking about I only saw as a child, later in their careers. I do remember when they outlawed Stickum and instituted the "5 yard Chuck" Rule. I know one of my biggest thrills was going to RFK and Seeing #42 do it in person against the Eagles and Harold Carmichael......

[dogfight6]

I'm with Wild Bore. I voted for Sammy but if this gets done over mark me for Mitchell also. :)

[AGibbsGirl]

I thought Sammy Baugh first of all because he revolutionized the passing game. Before him a QB mostly ran with the ball. God love 'em but there wouldn't be any great Art Monk's out there without a QB that could pass to them.

Sammy for me

PS: I found this link, it says what I said!
http://www.collegefootballnews.com/Top_100_Players/Top_100_Players_3_Sammy_Baugh.htm

[BurgundyNGold]

Actually you agree with my first point...Kinda.
Yes the newer player will always win out. The greatest of all time should be for the guy who sets the standard right? Using the swimming example, Spitz was the greatest until someone came along and bested him. Now he is no longer the greatest. Thank you for mentioning Babe Ruth as it has always been my contention that he is THE most overrated Basbeball player ever. Those who argue always use the "When he hit 61 Homers the next best guy hit 17". OK so Babe is the greatest because the rest of his Comp sucked? He didn't have to play night games, and the pitchers threw puss. He wasn't half the player Willie Mays,Mickey Mantle and Barry Bonds is/were. What about the fact that the best athletes of the day were barred from the major leagues. Josh Gibson was every bit the hitter that Babe was and a better Fielder to boot.
Football was also a segregated sport when Baugh played, another reason I discount players from the "cardboard shoulder pads" era. Because they weren't playing the best competition of their day as a function of league policy/law. Not their fault, but they benefitted with possibly inflated stats, so I do hold it against them in the final analysis.


I agree the feats aren't dimished, but as they get bested, the players get knocked down a rung or too on the "Greatest of All-time" Ladder.
Good point about segregation. It does make comparisons in that era to later players an apple to oranges comparison, and is worthy of consideration. BTW, why isn't Sonny on this list. It would sure make it easy for us to make our vote, eh? Maybe the question was meant to start out: "Other than Sonny... ".

[bantu]

My favorite is not on the list. Mr. Gary Clark. I love Art Monk, but Gary Clark was the greatest offensive player under Joe Gibbs. A joy to watch when I was a kid.

[Wild Bore]

My favorite is not on the list. Mr. Gary Clark. I love Art Monk, but Gary Clark was the greatest offensive player under Joe Gibbs. A joy to watch when I was a kid.

I loved watching Gary too. However, it is not supposed to be the favorite player. It is supposed to be the best ever. Gary Clark is not the best ever offensive player in the history of the Washington Redskins.

[Jimskin]

Joe Jacoby was a class guy. A Real Redskin in my humble opinion.

[Spence]

I voted for Grimm because I think he deserved at least one vote. He was the best Redskins player of the 1980s.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

I have to say Sammy. He set completely new standards.