Churchill: Saint or Fat, Duplicitous Drunk?

[akhhorus]

Grasping... grasping...

According to Winston Churchill - the average person is liberal when they are young (since they have no money and enjoy the government handouts) and then turn conservative when they mature (because they suddenly bristle at the idea of the government using their hard earned money to fund said programs).

I hate to break it to you, but Churchill only said this because he was constantly switching parties in a bid to always be in power. Which worked for 25 years, until the Brits got sick of him and both parties wouldnt give him any position(until he got some sources in the foreign office to sneak him info on Germany which he blabbed in Parliament and he took down his own party's government)

[Spence]

Finally, someone else has the guts to speak the truth about Churchill. He was a party-switcher who was constantly shifting his loyalty from one faction to another, whomever he thought would give him a leg up. Nobody trusted him. That's why he couldn't get the top job until he was so old and the country on the brink of annihilation. He had almost no friends because he'd betrayed almost everyone in British politics at one time or another.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Finally, someone else has the guts to speak the truth about Churchill. He was a party-switcher who was constantly shifting his loyalty from one faction to another, whomever he thought would give him a leg up. Nobody trusted him. That's why he couldn't get the top job until he was so old and the country on the brink of annihilation. He had almost no friends because he'd betrayed almost everyone in British politics at one time or another.

Now you're just making him sound like a liberal right there.

[akhhorus]

Now you're just making him sound like a liberal right there.

Churchill wasnt a liberal nor a conservative; he was a power junkie. He did a great job during WWII, but his history is littered with so many screw ups and backs that were stabbed that you have to take the fawning tributes with a grain of salt.

[Spence]

Now you're just making him sound like a liberal right there.How can anyone be so blindly ignorant of history? Firstly, betrayal has nothing to do with one's politics. It has to do with one's personality and ethics. Secondly, John Major was the first Conservative Tory Prime Minister in the 20th century who wasn't stabbed in the back by his party. Do you have any knowledge about what happened to Margaret Thatcher? She wasn't defeated in an election, her party cut her throat and dumped her. That's why, as she slowly lost her mind, she spent the last decade or so attacking her fellow Tories. She's bitter about suffering the fate of every other Tory leader for the last century.

Thirdly, Churchill was a liberal. Until he couldn't rise up any further in the party. Then he had a "revelation" [perhaps rather like George H.W. Bush's revelation from God about changing his position on abortion on the eve of the GOP convention in 1980] and switched over to the Tories.

[Spence]

Even some of Churchill's wartime experiences have been exaggerated. Eisenhower had to drag him kicking and screaming into Operation Overlord because after the British disasters in France and Greece, Churchill had lost all confidence his troops could defeat the Germans in battle.

[Spence]

I don't think most people appreciate the contributions Eisenhower made to victory. Just keeping Montgomery and Patton from slaughtering each other was a full-time job.

[akhhorus]

How can anyone be so blindly ignorant of history? Firstly, betrayal has nothing to do with one's politics. It has to do with one's personality and ethics. Secondly, John Major was the first Conservative Tory Prime Minister in the 20th century who wasn't stabbed in the back by his party. Do you have any knowledge about what happened to Margaret Thatcher? She wasn't defeated in an election, her party cut her throat and dumped her. That's why, as she slowly lost her mind, she spent the last decade or so attacking her fellow Tories. She's bitter about suffering the fate of every other Tory leader for the last century.

Thirdly, Churchill was a liberal. Until he couldn't rise up any further in the party. Then he had a "revelation" [perhaps rather like George H.W. Bush's revelation from God about changing his position on abortion on the eve of the GOP convention in 1980] and switched over to the Tories.

then proceeded to undermine his own Conservative government, get Chamberlin in charge(for which he became 1st Lord of the Admiralty--which he botched...again), helped undermine Chamberlin and became PM.

[Spence]

then proceeded to undermine his own Conservative government, get Chamberlin in charge(for which he became 1st Lord of the Admiralty--which he botched...again), helped undermine Chamberlin and became PM.Exactly. Churchill did some admirable things in WW2, but this beatification of him is preposterous. He was as dishonest and self-serving as any other politician.

[RedskinsDave]

cough, new thread, cough.

[IowaSkinsFan]

How can anyone be so blindly ignorant of history?

Not everyone has an ivy league education with a major in history, but thanks for assuming everyone is as smart as you are, I guess. It must be great to be you.

[Spence]

Not everyone has an ivy league education with a major in history, but thanks for assuming everyone is as smart as you are, I guess. It must be great to be you.Come on, Robert. You're an adult. If you post something like this:Now you're just making him sound like a liberal right there. you have to be prepared to get knocked around for it. Attributing negative personality traits to someone because of a liberal political orientation is absurd and you should know better. Now, you may claim your post was only in jest, but there is no way of telling that from what you typed.

[Spence]

I split this thread off from the discussion about Mr Bush's level of popularity within the U.S. military. No posts were altered or deleted, merely moved to a new thread, which got this shiny new name. No animals were harmed in the creation of this new thread.

Well, one parakeet sprained a foot, but he's got wings so it shouldn't hold him back too much.

[Jimreaper007]

From my understanding/research...Churchill was a little bit of both.

My conclusion on Churchill is that ordinary people with massive failings get caught up in situations that elevate them to extrordinary levels.


A more recent example is Rudy G. (IMO) Before 9-11 he was a scum-bag but the events of 9-11 made him some type of cult hero to conservatives and New Yorkers struggling for a sense of order and direction after the attacks.

Of course WW II has more historical signifigance, but hopefully you can see the similarities in the men.

[akhhorus]

From my understanding/research...Churchill was a little bit of both.

My conclusion on Churchill is that ordinary people with massive failings get caught up in situations that elevate them to extrordinary levels.


A more recent example is Rudy G. (IMO) Before 9-11 he was a scum-bag but the events of 9-11 made him some type of cult hero to conservatives and New Yorkers struggling for a sense of order and direction after the attacks.

Of course WW II has more historical signifigance, but hopefully you can see the similarities in the men.

Giulani is a sort-of good comparisonn. Churchill was a son of a bitch in his personal life andf in his political life, but hee had his moments. Dont get me wrong, he was a great leader, but the blanket statement that he can be admirred is farsical.

[Santheb]

I don't think most people appreciate the contributions Eisenhower made to victory. Just keeping Montgomery and Patton from slaughtering each other was a full-time job.

We all know that Georgie would've won that one :P

[akhhorus]

We all know that Georgie would've won that one :P

I dont know about that, Monty was a ruthless bastard. Patton believed in honor.

[Santheb]

I dont know about that, Monty was a ruthless bastard. Patton believed in honor.

True. It doesn't matter I guess. They never did fight each other and if they did, well, it wouldn't have been good.

[GeneralDisorder]

Do you have any knowledge about what happened to Margaret Thatcher? She wasn't defeated in an election, her party cut her throat and dumped her. That's why, as she slowly lost her mind, she spent the last decade or so attacking her fellow Tories. She's bitter about suffering the fate of every other Tory leader for the last century.

Not exactly how it happened. Thatcher was a meglomaniac who refused to listen to public opinion. She won her last two elections due to lack of credible opposition more than any other reason. Aside from consigning millions of school-leavers my age to meaningless training-schemes with no future just to get them off the jobless figures. She let inner-cities up & down the country crumble to such an extent that even two decades later they're still in a shocking state. Under Thatcher, Britain became divided into the haves and have-nots, and gave elements of the country poverty they'd not seen since before the last war.

The end for Thatcher came because she refused to take advice from her advisors and ignored public opinion by attempting to impose the infamous Poll Tax - which again, focused on taking from the poor and giving to the rich. This caused riots up and down the country, but Thatcher would still not listen and believed herself to be bigger than the party. We had an election due around 1992, which according to polls, the Tories were heading for defeat by a large margin unless they had a change of leadership or scrapped the hated poll tax. In short, she had to go...

I'm not sure how well received Thatcher is around the world, but myself and millions of working class Britons despise her and her policies. An evil woman, whose first act upon becoming Education Minister in the 70's was abolishing free school milk for Junior schools...

[Spence]

I know all that, GD, but every time I write something that long in here people roll their eyes at me. I'm not suggesting Thatcher didn't deserve it when Heseltine and the others chucked her over the side. She did have it coming and they were obviously eager to do it since they carried it out during a war crisis. The point I was trying to make is that the usual fate of Tory PMs over the last century is to get done in by their own party, whether they had it coming or not.

[Spence]

I'm not sure how well received Thatcher is around the world, but myself and millions of working class Britons despise her and her policies. An evil woman, whose first act upon becoming Education Minister in the 70's was abolishing free school milk for Junior schools...GD, the USA is one of the few countries where Thatcher is still admired, but mostly because Americans don't know what you know about her.

[Jimreaper007]

GD, the USA is one of the few countries where Thatcher is still admired, but mostly because Americans don't know what you know about her.


Spence, If I am not mistaken didn't Thatcher back Reagan's weapons buildups during the cold war?

I do remember massive protests in England and all of Europe about the placement of US Missiles.

I would imagine Thatcher was not very popular to those Americans who were not big fans of the Arms race at the time.

[flave1969]

It says a lot when you consider that at the first opportunity the British voted Churchill out of office, even though he came back for a third term. Churchill was the right man at the right time for WW2 but that was about it. He was everything you say he was, and more.

He did have a wonderful turn of phrase however.

Here are a couple.

From now on ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.

He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire.

He also had a great running battle of insults with George Bernard Shaw.

An example:

George Bernard Shaw.

I have two tickets for the opening night of my new play, bring a friend if you have one.

Churchill, in reply.

Can't possibly make the opening night, will come to the second, if there is one.

Great Stuff.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Now, you may claim your post was only in jest, but there is no way of telling that from what you typed.

Okay, I've got to give you that one. I should have used a smilie or two in there.

[akhhorus]

It says a lot when you consider that at the first opportunity the British voted Churchill out of office, even though he came back for a third term. Churchill was the right man at the right time for WW2 but that was about it. He was everything you say he was, and more.

He did have a wonderful turn of phrase however.

Here are a couple.

From now on ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.

He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire.

He also had a great running battle of insults with George Bernard Shaw.

An example:

George Bernard Shaw.

I have two tickets for the opening night of my new play, bring a friend if you have one.

Churchill, in reply.

Can't possibly make the opening night, will come to the second, if there is one.

Great Stuff.

my favorite was:
Please do not interrupt me when I'm trying to interrupt you.

[Spence]

Spence, If I am not mistaken didn't Thatcher back Reagan's weapons buildups during the cold war?Thatcher was a crucial ally for Reagan's placement of medium-range nuclear missiles in western Europe in the early 1980s. So was Chancellor Helmut Kohl of Germany. Francois Mitterand, Socialist President of France, helped out immensely simply by not opposing the plan. I'm with the righties on this one, though. I thought the placement of the missiles in western Europe was a good idea. I was a real anti-commie bastard in the Cold War, rightly so, I believe. I'm no pacifist. I believe in American power and the use of force when necessary. I fault and condemn Mr Bush for using the power unwisely and launching a hugely expensive and tragically-unnecessary war in Iraq. Confronting the USSR during the Cold War was expensive, but necessary. Defeat of communism will always be one of the great triumphs of American foreign policy, even as it was dotted with mistakes, both tactical and ethical.

[Jimreaper007]

Thanks Spence but I disagree with one point

I was certainly with the righties at the time all of this was going on as I was taught to believe that the Russians wanted me dead.

I joined the Army right after the fall of the wall and the Soviet Union. Here is where our opinions differ. I think history will be the ultimate judge to if the fall of communism has made the world a better, safer place.


As we all are painfully aware of now, the Soviet Union masked a lot of the ugliness we are seeing from newly formed or reformed countries like Bosnia, etc. The soviets kept all of these ethnic issues squashed under their boot, but of course they are in full gear again. The Army went from 26 actve duty division not countign the reserves to 10 division all together but the number of deployments has sky rocketed since the collapse of the USSR.

Therefore I am not so eager to say that Reagan's accomplishments did the world a ton of good. Look at the mess those places have become since the Russians split. Now we cannot even identify our enemies, let alone kill them. There are plenty of old soldiers who would prefer one big, giant enemy over 100 little ones.

I think history may Judge Ronald Reagan's actions as opening or re-opening Pandora's Box.

Sorry for going off subject but I think that needed to be said.

[Minnesota Mike]

GD, the USA is one of the few countries where Thatcher is still admired, but mostly because Americans don't know what you know about her.

That has even wained here in the past few years. Her appearance fees had dried up. And then she announced that her health wouldn't allow her to travel anymore.

But at least her son his still able to make a few headlines.

[Minnesota Mike]

Say what bad things you want about ol' Winnie, but his "stand on the rooftops during the bombing" act was just the sort of thing his country needed during its darkest hour.

It is also a stark contrast to W's go hide in a bunker in Nebraska routine during our's.

[Jimreaper007]

Say what bad things you want about ol' Winnie, but his "stand on the rooftops during the bombing" act was just the sort of thing his country needed during its darkest hour.

It is also a stark contrast to W's go hide in a bunker in Nebraska routine during our's.


Amen..


Churchill had his faults like EVERYONE ELSE, but sometimes crucial moments empower normal people to do extraordinary things.

The fact that there is still an England is a testiment to the skill of the Royal Air Force and the Bull Dog determination of Winston Churchill.

There were also a great many things people did not like about George S. Patton or Montgomery, but no one doubted their skill as commanders and leaders.