It is now up to Tony Williams

[Jero]

Tony Williams is going to have to somehow create a miracle in the next 17 days or else baseball will probably never going to come back to Washington. What do you think will happen??

[Jimreaper007]

Linda Cropp did the City of Washington a wonderful service. As a native Washingtonian I do believe that deal the mayor made was not in the best interest of the people who actually live in Washington DC. AT least Cropp forced the mayor to come up with a creative means of financing this stadium without DC Business owners or citizens footing the bill.

Considering the Mayor is a transplant himself, I did not expect him to give a crap about the poor folks who actually live in those wards or the businesses that will have to foot the tax bill.

I have no problem giving the team to Maryland or Northern VA if the deal does not work out. I am more concerned about the citizens/Business owners of DC.

Yes a baseball team would be a nice to have...but I will grow wings and fly away before I put baseball ahead of schools, citizens and the like.

The mayor is on the clock.....

And oh by the way...if the mayor is so creative to get this deal done then he should have no problem fixing the schools in DC.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Well, the way I look at it is simple: Yes, DC would have been paying a very large sum to get this operation up and going. But the city's economy right now is not exactly what anyone would call vibrant, and it hasn't been for a long, long time. So what are the options? Either we keep the status quo and assume that somehow, magically, everything will fix itself, or we make a change. A baseball team is a big change. When it comes to wealth in the region, most of that wealth is i nthe hands of rich people living in the suburbs. A baseball team would bring thousands of those rich people into the city 81 times a year to spend some of that wealth.

Short-term, bad. Long-term, good.

[aREDSKIN]

I suspect that MLB may extend the "deadline" of the original agreement given the ambush from the miscreant Linda Cropp. The only thing that MLB needs to completely understand, which they should by now, is if DC really wants baseball within it boundries. I think that's up for debate or not, if your really attuned to DC politics, and if that's the case then baseball will not be in DC for long. Geeze they drove the Redskins' out of RFK why would anyone expect anything different from the incompetents that comprise the DC government. Williams tried to go the extra mile and invigorate an area that clearly has had a crying need for invigoration for decades but the city council and one Linda Cropp have yet again crapped on that.

[Jimreaper007]

A baseball team is a big change. When it comes to wealth in the region, most of that wealth is i nthe hands of rich people living in the suburbs. A baseball team would bring thousands of those rich people into the city 81 times a year to spend some of that wealth. Short-term, bad. Long-term, good.


I agree that bringing the rich folks into that area 81 times a year is a good thing for the city and especially the Anocostia area, but I have a problem with the mayor pulling baseball out of his you know what, when he has had two terms as mayor and the schools are falling apart. Where was all this creativity when kids were passing out because they are trying to learn in 90+ degree classrooms? I am sure the rich folks in the suburbs do not care about that. All they want is a nice place to take their kids to see a game.

I am as big a sports fan as anyone here, but I am also a huge fan of priorities. I have no problem giving this team to those rich folks in the suburbs so they can deal with it rather than have the city pay for something that takes away from the students and other programs that help the poorest people in the city. Mayor Williams has been accused more than once of catering only to the richest parts of DC. This movement to the anocostia area signals a big shift to help the poorest part of the city, but if the city has to come up with some ridiculous amount of money to pay for this stadium then it will take away from the highest priorities like schools, the elderly programs etc. I hope the mayor comes up with a financing plan that meets the new financing requirement as well as baseball's requirements. If the teams goes to the Northern Virginia group I will be just as happy.

[SkinsKY]

I understand your point Jim about taking care of the schools and businesses, but right now it seems there are two options.

A)Get rid of baseball and continue as things have always been. You said yourself that Williams caters to the DC rich and has two terms and neglected the schools. Will losing baseball make him stop doing those things?

B)Try and get baseball and while things will continue as normal, they have the opportunity to improve.

Recent history has shown that things aren't going to change on their own, so why not try something new?

[hail2skins]

I'm a native Washingtonian myself and DC has had problems with schools and hospitals for a long, long time. Now they want to use it as an excuse to keep baseball out of DC. What a crock. For the last 4 to 5 years, schools have been closing or considered unfit and what has the government done, nada.

Basically, the baseball deal is dead so new schools and hospitals should be popping up all over the place.

[Jimreaper007]

I hope the deal goes through.....

I hope we get baseball, but I hope the Mayor shows this must zeal in tackling the problems of Bad Schools and Hospitals.

[dj_stouty]

A lot of people think there is some huge pool of money laying around, and one of the "many" options to use it is on a baseball stadium. That is far from the truth. Either it is used on a stadium, or it dissapears. Period. There are no other options. As Joe, h2s and Brandon said...Nothing gets better" if MLB packs their bags and goes elsewhere.

Southeast DC (the Anacostia area in particular), is one of the most economically depressed neighborhoods in the country. Any attempt at a separate "revitalization" plan won't come anywhere close to its goal if there isn't a stadium attached to it. Paving the streets in brick and adding some glitzy restaurants and high-end retail shops won't attract people from the suburbs...and it surely won't attract Joe Tourist who would prefer Georgetown anyway... A baseball park brings people into the city. It creates jobs on all economic levels. I can't see how his idea is a bad one!

[Jimreaper007]

I hope Baseball stays and we get the team,

I applaud Cropp for trying to relieve DC of some of the financial burden....

[dj_stouty]

I applaud Cropp for trying to relieve DC of some of the financial burden....

Its not technically a "burden" if that expense creates short term and especially long term benefits to the city.

[RedskinsDave]

Cropp's thinking may be in the right place but he way of going about this is what stinks to high heaven. She could've done something a long time ago but no, she waits until the last minute and makes a mess of the whole deal. Like I told her in an e-mail, she better hope new schools and hospitals pop up if D.C. loses the team because there will be many people keeping a close eye on her political future.

Also, saying that Williams doesn't care about the poor of D.C. because he's a transplant is ridiculous. He has done more financially for the city than his two predecessors combined.

[Spence]

There have never been any independent economic studies [by that I mean studies not paid for by a sports league or sports team] that locating a sports franchise in a town brings economic benefit. I hear that argument all the time and it is never supported by any real evidence.

Let's just be clear on what some people want to happen here: The citizens of D.C. should build a stadium for a super-wealthy owner. What we're talking about there is a huge transfer of wealth from middle class to people to one rich person.

Just so we're clear on that.

[dj_stouty]

There have never been any independent economic studies [by that I mean studies not paid for by a sports league or sports team] that locating a sports franchise in a town brings economic benefit. I hear that argument all the time and it is never supported by any real evidence.


I don't need a economic study to see what the MCI center has done to M Street and the Chinatown area.

I've also been to several ball parks around the country that have revitalized their respective areas due to the addition of a sporting venue. Denver is a great example. They slapped Coors Field in the middle of what was once a bad neighborhood of downtown Denver. Ever since, the area has grown and is thriving. The values of the homes in the area have shot up...and many more jobs were created on all economic levels.

Also...the original "publically financed" proposal included many "give back to the community" benefits. No baseball means those initiatives won't exist...and I highly doubt we can rely on the city council to provide those after the fact.

[RedskinsDave]

Come on DJ, we all know those warehouses over in Southeast bring in more money than any stadium, restaurants, offices, and parking ever would. Look what Oriole Park did to Camden Yards. Those empty train yards were far better for the local economy.

[Spence]

The point is that whatever has happened to Chinatown or anywhere else in the country could have been accomplished at a lower price tag by using economic incentives that don't involve a huge transfer of cash from middle class citizens to one rich person. There are other ways to create jobs and increase the tax base of a municipality that don't involve regressive taxation.

I'm a resident of the MD suburbs, however. I'd love a baseball team in D.C., but this isn't my call. My tax dollars won't be on the hook for it. I don't know where you live, Mark, but you may recall how Maryland taxpayers were required to foot the bill for that football stadium in Baltimore that was just given to the Ravens franchise. Essentially, people like me sent their tax dollars to rich old bastard named Art Modell. I wasn't too keen on that, especially since I don't ever plan on setting foot inside that stadium.

This is for D.C. residents to decide. I'd like to have the Washington Nationals around, but I'd never demand that the people of Washington, D.C. foot the bill for me. That wouldn't be right.

[Spence]

Oriole Park did to Camden Yards. Those empty train yards were far better for the local economy.Oriole Park wasn't given to Peter Angelos. The Maryland Stadium Authority owns Oriole Park and leases it to the Orioles. The city makes a nice profit on the deal, so we're not talking about a huge transfer of wealth from ordinary citizens to one rich trial lawyers. [I know you're a big fan of trial lawyers, Dave, but you'll just have to learn to live with it.] Angelos PAYS for the right to stage Major League Baseball games in the stadium, which is publicly-owned.

[dj_stouty]

I don't know where you live, Mark.

I live in Fairfax County, so I luckily didn't have to pay for the Birdies stadium. (Thank God!)

This is for D.C. residents to decide. I'd like to have the Washington Nationals around, but I'd never demand that the people of Washington, D.C. foot the bill for me. That wouldn't be right.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't most of the tax burden being taken by DC businesses with over "x" amount of annual revenue? I'd like to know exactly how much the typical DC resident will actually fork over for the stadium.

Plus...I really don't see this as them paying strictly for a ballpark. I see them investing in their city's most deprived neighborhood. I'll bet the residents in SE DC would love to see some cleanup happen in their neck of the woods...even if it has to come from the acquisition of a ball park, and not from Linda Crap's council. In fact, I'll bet most of the local opposition to this ballpark is coming from the wealthy portions of NW DC. No proof on this...Just a hunch.

Regardless...I think think this has been a great disscussion.

[RedskinsDave]

Angelos pays a nominal fee and gets all of the concession and ticket money.

[SkinsKY]

Spence I understand that the owner will gain a great deal of wealth through the staidum, but he has to pay people to work the stadium and those workers come from somewhere. With the clauses to give back to the community, it doesn't make sense why people would be opposed to it. If I lived in DC would be happy with the deal. I'm not demanding that they foot the bill, but I think they should because it makes sense.

[Carmelo]

Yes a baseball team would be a nice to have...but I will grow wings and fly away before I put baseball ahead of schools, citizens and the like.

The mayor is on the clock.....


Jim, you act as if we would have spent that money on schools in the first place. Our schools (i'm a product of dc public schools) have been effed up for a long time and this money didn't just come out of nowhere. If we can come up with this cash now we could have done it for the schools last year or the year before or the year before... I do understand that this is money that could be spent elsewhere but we obviously had chances before to do it and haven't. This is all politics and linda is thinking more about becoming a mayor herself than she is about the kids in dc public schools.

[Spence]

I live in Fairfax County, so I luckily didn't have to pay for the Birdies stadium. (Thank God!)But you know what happened in northern Virginia when Little Jack tried to move the Skins out there.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't most of the tax burden being taken by DC businesses with over "x" amount of annual revenue? I'd like to know exactly how much the typical DC resident will actually fork over for the stadium.Business taxes are always passed on to consumers, unfortunately. In any case, the financing of this deal will probably change before anything gets done . You can never be too careful about financing anything in D.C.

Plus...I really don't see this as them paying [i]strictly for a ballpark. I see them investing in their city's most deprived neighborhood. I'll bet the residents in SE DC would love to see some cleanup happen in their neck of the woods...even if it has to come from the acquisition of a ball park, and not from Linda Crap's council. In fact, I'll bet most of the local opposition to this ballpark is coming from the wealthy portions of NW DC. No proof on this...Just a hunch.Southeast is a disgrace, I agree with you there. But will a new stadium lead to improvements in the area? You went to RFK when the Skins played there, right? The stadium and Armory never did too much for that neighborhood, which was almost a demilitarized zone. [Not as bad as the area around Yankee Stadium, but nothing to be proud of either.]

In Chinatown there was already a business community, it just needed something to reverse its decline. MCI appears to have done that nicely. I just don't see a business community in southeast. I can see this stadium turning out just like where the Dallas Cowboys play. Ever been there? It's dismal and depressing. The only businesses thriving around there are bail bondsmen. [Which, for the Cowboys, must seem rather ironic.]

I don't know where most of the opposition to the stadium deal is coming from. I'm not even sure there is much opposition. This could be something the Council is concerned about but the public is not. I wish we had some reliable polling data on that question. The northwest, where most of the wealthy D.C. residents live, wouldn't be troubled by traffic from the stadium and they can most afford to pay any additional taxes levied to pay for the stadium, so they would appear to have the least to lose and most to gain. They might oppose it on other grounds, I don't know. Interesting question.

Regardless...I think think this has been a great disscussion.Quite agree.

[Spence]

Angelos pays a nominal fee and gets all of the concession and ticket money.My understanding is that the feel is not nominal at all.

[smoak]

I hope Baseball stays and we get the team,

I applaud Cropp for trying to relieve DC of some of the financial burden....

I'll be the first to admit that I really don't care and I'm making arguments without really knowing the facts... That said, it is my understanding is that she supported the deal all the way up until the 11th hour??? IMO that is wrong. I agree with the person that said a baseball team would generate long term revenue (hotels, restaurants, transportation,tourists attractions, etc.). Case in point, I was already planning a weekend stay for a couple games and now no matter what I think I'll pass... I also agree with the person that said she is using the schools and hospitals as a pathetic excuse to throw a wrench in the works. Every politician has an agenda and I'll bet her's is more selfish than it seems.

Of course this is coming from someone who would rather re-watched a taped preseason football game than the world series. They betrayed my in '94 and I'll never go back.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

In fact, I'll bet most of the local opposition to this ballpark is coming from the wealthy portions of NW DC.
For the most part that's exactly where the opposition is coming
from.

[Spence]

I think we should separate the stadium deal and Linda Cropp. It is possible to be skeptical of the stadium deal AND Linda Cropp. I don't pretend to have any evidence about why she is doing what she is doing, but considering the faithless way she has behaved during the entire affair, I'm pretty certain the best interests of D.C. taxpayers are not her foremost concern.

[RedskinsDave]

Here's Marc Fisher from the Post's quote on the financing:

No project of this size and nature is financed privately; the government will sell the bonds. The only question is who makes the payments on the bonds, and it's really a matter of terminology that we're arguing about, because in the deal as it exists now, it's the fans, big businesses and the team that cough up the bucks. How is that public money?

[dj_stouty]

Southeast is a disgrace, I agree with you there. But will a new stadium lead to improvements in the area? You went to RFK when the Skins played there, right? The stadium and Armory never did too much for that neighborhood, which was almost a demilitarized zone. [Not as bad as the area around Yankee Stadium, but nothing to be proud of either.]

In Chinatown there was already a business community, it just needed something to reverse its decline. MCI appears to have done that nicely. I just don't see a business community in southeast. I can see this stadium turning out just like where the Dallas Cowboys play. Ever been there? It's dismal and depressing. The only businesses thriving around there are bail bondsmen. [Which, for the Cowboys, must seem rather ironic.]


I don't think RFK and Texas Stadium are good examples, as they were both created over 30 years ago. (RFK was erected in 1962 and Texas Stadium in 1971.) It has only been a new trend where businesses and developers blanket the areas around new stadiums. I think RFK and Texas stadium venues were sufficient when constructed, and no big wave of development in the vicinity took place over the next few decades. (And yes...I've driven by Texas Stadium and agree it is as much of a dump as the Dome is in New Orleans, or the Metrodome in Minneapolis)

More recently, Camden Yards (100% publically funded), Coors Field (78% Publically Financed) and PNC Park (100% publically funded) have started the trend of brining along restaurants and other revenue generating establishments to the area local to the ball park.

I have a hard time believing bringing a park to the deprived area of SE DC won't bring value to the neighborhood.

[LATrueRedskin]

Unfortunately, I don't see D.C. getting the Expos. MLB is very pissed about the whole thing. The D.C. Council made a deal with MLB and they broke it.

[Jimreaper007]

They will get this straightened out....

DC will have Baseball

[Axegrinder]

Norfolks take.....http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BBN_EXPOS_WASHINGTON?SITE=VANOV&SECTION=SPORTS

[bgforever]

Norfolks take.....http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BBN_EXPOS_WASHINGTON?SITE=VANOV&SECTION=SPORTS


"after she threatened to withhold support from the overall package, which then passed in a 7-6 vote"


That tactic is NOT in the best interest of a government, when the "people" must be coerced into a decision, instead of a free standing one. When the people are improperly represented and the law doesn't work in the best interest, and the decision is not allowed to be free, what good is her decisions, whether she wanted to save the city's coffers or not. She is shielding her interests with the front of squeezing her opponents, as a "protective" measure, when in fact, it is an outright aggression against the common good.

She will not see the light of day in her career. Many will sentimentally pick her and they will fall into the snare that has plagued the city for years. It is popular to pick her, but you will be twice as broke and once again, the gains, all hundreds of miillions and tens of billions of them, will dry up. Your seat of power, may even find it better in the interest of the nation to relocate most heads of the federal government to save billions of dollars.

Maryland has gained the "actual" revenue of two major franchises, it may get a third in soccer, and baseball now is dying as a last hope of a ONCE proud inner city. I have no choice but to move back there, because it is easier to criitisize when away, harder to deal with, when you are there. If there was an ease to it, Cropp made it more dificult to go "forward" from the "start" , just as Dan Snyder, had to "start" first before going forward.