Why?

[JoeDaSchmoe]

By this point, I can truly say that I am completely and utterly baffled as to why our running game is designed like it is. Today, I probably watched us run the counter about 25 times. Each time, I thought, "Oh God, here comes three yards or less." I was proven wrong maybe three or four times.

The counter is not effective. It's not a play that anyone can use 25 times a game. Occasionally it's a good tool to catch defenses off guard, especially those that overpursue. It doesn't work as a staple.

The most frustrating part of all this is the fact that Gibbs has actually tried a more effective style. Against both the Bears and the Giants, we ran far more quick-hitting running plays, usually with zone blocking. Is it any surprise that Portis had a couple of his best average of the season in those games? He was ripping off big chunks of yardage in both, and it made our whole offense better. Then, with no explination and certainly no understandable reason, Gibbs went right back to the ineffective counter (which, by the way, apparently must be run out of the same ineffective formation, that damnable one-receiver set).

The other parts of the offense seem to be slowing coming together, but this obsession with the counter is driving me insane. I know it was one of the most-used plays in the first Gibbs era, but when your runningback was incredibly good in a zone blocking scheme in Denver, then looks equally good in the brief moments he's run behind a zone blocking scheme here, what's the motivation to stick to what's not working?

[flave1969]

By this point, I can truly say that I am completely and utterly baffled as to why our running game is designed like it is. Today, I probably watched us run the counter about 25 times. Each time, I thought, "Oh God, here comes three yards or less." I was proven wrong maybe three or four times.

The counter is not effective. It's not a play that anyone can use 25 times a game. Occasionally it's a good tool to catch defenses off guard, especially those that overpursue. It doesn't work as a staple.

The most frustrating part of all this is the fact that Gibbs has actually tried a more effective style. Against both the Bears and the Giants, we ran far more quick-hitting running plays, usually with zone blocking. Is it any surprise that Portis had a couple of his best average of the season in those games? He was ripping off big chunks of yardage in both, and it made our whole offense better. Then, with no explination and certainly no understandable reason, Gibbs went right back to the ineffective counter (which, by the way, apparently must be run out of the same ineffective formation, that damnable one-receiver set).

The other parts of the offense seem to be slowing coming together, but this obsession with the counter is driving me insane. I know it was one of the most-used plays in the first Gibbs era, but when your runningback was incredibly good in a zone blocking scheme in Denver, then looks equally good in the brief moments he's run behind a zone blocking scheme here, what's the motivation to stick to what's not working?

Your summation is spot on Joe, those were 110 tough yards today. They say variety is the spice of life and we simply do not get it in the running game. They counter trey if you have an all pro line like the Hogs is a good play to run, but it takes far to long to develop and Clinton is just hitting a pile of bodies because the play takes too long to develop. We were saying all this in the first four weeks, and I thought we were getting away from these pulls and traps but they keep coming back. San Francisco were in the backfield at least a dozen times when we ran. You could see the frustration on Clinton's face. To his credit he just got on with it.

Had we been behind we would have dropped the run altogether. The simple truth is there are no John Riggins type players out there who can run in this kind of scheme. When we have a running back as good as Portis, surely we need to design the scheme around him rather than make him fit.

[GibbsFan]

Counter treys require your linemen to stay on their blocks longer. This line does not do a good job of sustaining blocks and these plays just don't work very well for us anymore.

Also, todays NFL defenses are attacking rather than reading. The disruption of blitzing and penetration from different areas makes the counter much harder to execute. If we are to make these plays work like they once did we need guys with good feet who can move and stay on their block once they get to the hole. The problem is not Portis, who could break every record in the book if he was hitting the secondary before first contact.

Our greatest need is to improve the OL. Right now we have only one lineman doing an adequate job, Randy Thomas. Samuels is not giving us anywhere near what he is paid. Raymer is just not getting the job done. Ray has played better lately, but is really not starting quality anymore. Many people love Dockery, but he does not stay on his blocks long enough and could really stand to lose a few pounds and take some ballet to improve his agility and footwork.

While the counter does not seem to be a great fit for Portis at this point, I would love to see him run it with blocking like Timmy Smith got against the Broncos.

[SkinsKY]

Agreed Joe. That one-WR set is the worst thing in football. You surprise nobody when you run out of that and it's ineffective when you pass out of it. Look at any good rushing offense and you see they spread the field, at least to some degree. Putting 8 on the line allows them to put nine in the box. There's not a good rushing team out there that runs that formation on anything but the one fuzz and they play action on 2nd down. The runs were terrible. Against a real NFL team, we would have lost this game. Gibbs called an amazing drive on the first drive. His pass calls seemed okay for the most part (still no deep passes called down the middle), but his run calls would have put us in a huge bind against just about anyone else.

I will say that on almost every run, Portis seemed like he didn't have great footing and may have benefitted from longer spikes. He seemed on his way down before he made to the line and was sloppy every time he tried to juke or cut.

[Jimreaper007]

By this point, I can truly say that I am completely and utterly baffled as to why our running game is designed like it is. Today, I probably watched us run the counter about 25 times. Each time, I thought, "Oh God, here comes three yards or less." I was proven wrong maybe three or four times.

The counter is not effective. It's not a play that anyone can use 25 times a game. Occasionally it's a good tool to catch defenses off guard, especially those that overpursue. It doesn't work as a staple.



See the problem is not with the counter, but the personnel, execution and the lack of physical dominance.

The problem is the counter play relies on a power back that can break the first tackle he will encounter. We have portis who gives us more advantages but his biggest disadvantage is that he needs to be vitrually untouched by the time the pulling guards are in front of him. In other words, the counter worked great with Riggins, Riggs and Rogers because the first guys could never bring them down. Portis is supceptible to being brought down, but if you give him the smallest crease....see ya!


Contrary to popular belief the counter is a great play to run against 8 defenders in the box because if you do not allow back side penetration and the TE's Wr's get seals on defenders you trap those 8 people in the box and your RB back has only 3 defenders to deal with once his pulling blockers are rounding the corner in front of him.


That play is actually designed to take advantage of over aggressive defenses who want to stop the run.The initial step in the wrong direction is designed to suck the defenders into the trap so they can be effectively sealed from the play. Never was this play illustrated better than when the Redskins trounced the Broncos in the super bowl. Denver tried to be aggressive and when their linebackers followed the first step of Timmy Smith they effectively sealed their own fates. Timmy smith hit the corner with two huge blockers in front of him against one linebacker a very small corner and a slow safety (Tony Lilly) that smith easily out sprinted several times on long runs.

If you are on Defense the way to beat the counter play is to get penetration (preferably on the center). If the defense can push the center into the backfield it blocks the pulling guards and collapses the whole play.

The redskins have a serious problem at Center and our current TE's, Wr's have not proven to be as effective at sealing as Doc Walker, Donnie Warren Clint Didier, Art Monk, Gary Clark, Ricky Sanders back in the day. The other key was that we had the best run blocking Wr's in the league. It is no coincedence that Russ Grim has the three best blocking Wr's in the league. He remembers that WR blocks can be the difference between a 3 yard run and a 70 yard run.

Bottomline: The counter is a great play to run if you have precision execution and a strong offensive line. The Redskins have neither of those right now, but they will soon. I would not abandon the one reciever set either because the thing with that is when you execute properly the defense can know what is coming and they still cannot stop it.

[SkinsKY]

Jim, I understand what you are saying, but counters are designed as a change of pace. If you always run counters, the defense will not overpursue, and that puts them in great position to bust up the play. The counter-trey is one of the easiest plays to spot in football. It's doubly cursed because we don't run anything else from that initial movement. If you see two guys leave the strong side, it's the counter-trey. Defenses are too good not to stop that anymore. I think running a counter with one guy and the trey in moderation is a great thing, but it cannot be a staple play.

[mexskins]

There were a lot of running plays yesterday that Ray Brown could not block his guy. We need better linemen, thats all

Hail from Mexico !!!!.

[redskin_rich]

I agree that the counter trey should be used less. Maybe 10 times a game but it depends on the situation. It is Gibbs' signature play so it will always be there. I would like to see more pitch outs.

[GoDannyBoy]

The running game sucxxx yesterday. SF was in our backfield all afternoon and if it wasn't for the Defense we would have lost.

Williams is getting the most out of his players, why can't Joe get the most of of the players he has? Sticks with Brunell for too long. Sticks with Counter-trey too long? Does Gibbs need to reevaluate his offense?

[hail2skins]

Counter trey can be a very deceiving run play. It doesn't have to be two people pulling either. It can be one. I've seen just about every team in the NFL run some form of the counter trey. I feel that those tough runs are the best ones because it's telling the defense that you won't give up on running the ball and it also wears them down too.

[gipper]

By this point, I can truly say that I am completely and utterly baffled as to why our running game is designed like it is. Today, I probably watched us run the counter about 25 times. Each time, I thought, "Oh God, here comes three yards or less." I was proven wrong maybe three or four times.

The counter is not effective. It's not a play that anyone can use 25 times a game. Occasionally it's a good tool to catch defenses off guard, especially those that overpursue. It doesn't work as a staple.

The most frustrating part of all this is the fact that Gibbs has actually tried a more effective style. Against both the Bears and the Giants, we ran far more quick-hitting running plays, usually with zone blocking. Is it any surprise that Portis had a couple of his best average of the season in those games? He was ripping off big chunks of yardage in both, and it made our whole offense better. Then, with no explination and certainly no understandable reason, Gibbs went right back to the ineffective counter (which, by the way, apparently must be run out of the same ineffective formation, that damnable one-receiver set).

The other parts of the offense seem to be slowing coming together, but this obsession with the counter is driving me insane. I know it was one of the most-used plays in the first Gibbs era, but when your runningback was incredibly good in a zone blocking scheme in Denver, then looks equally good in the brief moments he's run behind a zone blocking scheme here, what's the motivation to stick to what's not working?
Amen.Keep trying keep getting stuffed a brain dead running game no imagination.

[Patrick]

Counter trey can be a very deceiving run play. It doesn't have to be two people either. I can be one. I've seen just about every team in the NFL run some form of the counter trey. I feel that those tough runs are the best ones because it's telling the defense that you won't give up on running the ball and it also wears them down too.

Ummmmmm YEP ... What he said!

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Counter trey can be a very deceiving run play. It doesn't have to be two people pulling either. It can be one. I've seen just about every team in the NFL run some form of the counter trey. I feel that those tough runs are the best ones because it's telling the defense that you won't give up on running the ball and it also wears them down too.

Mike, I know I must be misunderstanding you here... Given the choice between a diverse running system and one that rarely gets you more than three yards per play, you'd take the three-yarders because it makes you seem "though"?

[IndianBaller27]

I don't get it either. You saw what we did against Detroit, New York, and Chicago. And then you saw what we did against basically every other team. Why would you go back to the crappy 3 yards, when you could be getting 5 or 6?? Doesn't make sense. We need to get the zone blocking again.

[IMALILTEAPOT]

i dont have a problem with the trey, but just not all the time and NOT IN THE GOALINE!!! I was pissed when we had the trey at the goaline. i mean, when u need like 2 yards, u just have to ram it in there, dont do pulls and counters and stuff. but i thought we would of broken a long one when we did the counter and portis fumbled. if u looked at it, if poris got out of that arm tackle and held on to the ball, he would of broke one.

[BIGSEF3]

i agree zoneblocking works best with portis.

joe gibbs has the same dilema with his running back that atlanta does with its quarterback.

atlanta wants to have a west coast offense, but that just doesnt suit vick. the falcons won last night b/c the coach called a play that allowed vick to use his mobility, and dive for a 10 yard touchdown run to tie the game with a few seconds left.

joe gibbs is trying to stick with the system that won him 3 superbowls. what joe has to realize is that that system may be a great one, but he needs to adapt to what personnel he has. our O-line isnt that good, but they can zoneblock effectively. portis has vision. gibbs needs to let portis do his thing, the same way atlanta is finally starting to let vick do his thing.

[IndianBaller27]

Just imagine if there had been zone blocking all year! Brunell would still be at QB. We would have a realistic shot at the playoffs. (We're still mathimatically alive) We would be so good. But now it's too little and too late.

[Jimreaper007]

Jim, I understand what you are saying, but counters are designed as a change of pace. If you always run counters, the defense will not overpursue, and that puts them in great position to bust up the play. The counter-trey is one of the easiest plays to spot in football. It's doubly cursed because we don't run anything else from that initial movement. If you see two guys leave the strong side, it's the counter-trey. Defenses are too good not to stop that anymore. I think running a counter with one guy and the trey in moderation is a great thing, but it cannot be a staple play.


SkinsKY,

I think we are on the same wavelength just allow me to clarify....

The Redskins have no deep passing game so every run we are going to try right now suffers. The only threat our opponets prepare for is Clinton Portis. We are actually doing them a favor by not attacking teams deep with Coles. They are content to pace 8 in the box and give coles, cooley all the underneath stuff.

Counters are very effective when/if you have the capability of stretching the field. I know why Joe Gibbs is calling the counter 18-20 times a game. He is doing it first and foremost to evaluate his own players and of course to see how teams are defensing it. Yes it is painful to watch, but I guarantee you he knows who can pull, who can seal and who is going through the motions.

The biggest problem with our running game is lack of physical domination, lack of execution and a lack of aggression.

The counter trey will be the signature run for Joe Gibbs. He just needs to get the right people to execute it. I did notice that gibbs added some zone blocking quick hitting runs against some opponets liek the Bears and Lions. I also noticed he did not use it at all versus teams in the NFC East because they all are heavy blitzing teams.

I think joe will be more creative when he has the right people in the right places.

[Cruising270]

We seriously need to do something about this inability to score in 1st and goal. This is really rediculous and with our offence not being the most effecient we HAVE to take advantage of getting 7 not 3. I love having Clinton Portis so don't take this next comment as me wanting to get rid of him but he contantly is getting his legs wrapped up and going down at the line. I know that the holes arn't big and he's no Jerome Bettis but maybe we need to do the same thing that Steeler's did with Staley. Get a Jerome Bettis guy to punch it in on goal line situations for next season.

I never watched much on Denver over the last few years but was Clinton effective on goal line situations there or did they normally have to resort to the pass? Maybe it is more our line and less Clinton but it still looks like a combination of both.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

SkinsKY,

I think we are on the same wavelength just allow me to clarify....

The Redskins have no deep passing game so every run we are going to try right now suffers. The only threat our opponets prepare for is Clinton Portis. We are actually doing them a favor by not attacking teams deep with Coles. They are content to pace 8 in the box and give coles, cooley all the underneath stuff.

Counters are very effective when/if you have the capability of stretching the field. I know why Joe Gibbs is calling the counter 18-20 times a game. He is doing it first and foremost to evaluate his own players and of course to see how teams are defensing it. Yes it is painful to watch, but I guarantee you he knows who can pull, who can seal and who is going through the motions.

The biggest problem with our running game is lack of physical domination, lack of execution and a lack of aggression.

The counter trey will be the signature run for Joe Gibbs. He just needs to get the right people to execute it. I did notice that gibbs added some zone blocking quick hitting runs against some opponets liek the Bears and Lions. I also noticed he did not use it at all versus teams in the NFC East because they all are heavy blitzing teams.

I think joe will be more creative when he has the right people in the right places.

Jim, I just can't agree with you at all on this one. The counter just doesn't work as a staple run against today's defenses. They're much more aggressive than they were fifteen years ago. They'll blow it up in the backfield. You can say that any play that doesn't work is a result of a "lack of execution," but when the same play consistently doesn't work drive after drive, week after week, that's more than just the players.

[GibbsRules!]

Jim, I just can't agree with you at all on this one. The counter just doesn't work as a staple run against today's defenses. They're much more aggressive than they were fifteen years ago. They'll blow it up in the backfield. You can say that any play that doesn't work is a result of a "lack of execution," but when the same play consistently doesn't work drive after drive, week after week, that's more than just the players.

I see your point JDS. I think the counter would fail miserably against a team like the Panthers w/ Julius Peppers or the Colts with Dwight Freeney. These guys can flat out fly and when an O Lineman pulls, they have the lateral quickness to catch the runner before he can get out of the backfield, even a runner as quick as Portis.

IMO you have to put a body on someone right from the snap and push them back if possible. Todays D Linemen have tremendous pursuit and are relentless.

It's easy for us to sit here and analyze this and you know Gibbs and Buges see this on tape every Monday morning. I don't know that Gibbs would beat a dead horse if he didn't believe he could still make it work.

I really think a quick pitch is the only way you can make the counter work vs todays defenses. It gives Portis a head start and that needed edge to at least get out of the backfield. I'm certain Gibbs will spend the entire off season incorporating changes to the run blocking schemes, rest assured.

Next year will be fun to watch!

[Cruising270]

It's easy for us to sit here and analyze this and you know Gibbs and Buges see this on tape every Monday morning. I don't know that Gibbs would beat a dead horse if he didn't believe he could still make it work.




I agree 100%, they know better than us

[Jimreaper007]

Jim, I just can't agree with you at all on this one. The counter just doesn't work as a staple run against today's defenses. They're much more aggressive than they were fifteen years ago. They'll blow it up in the backfield. You can say that any play that doesn't work is a result of a "lack of execution," but when the same play consistently doesn't work drive after drive, week after week, that's more than just the players.


You are judging the counter play and gibbs play calling based on what you have seen this season and on that note I would agree.

I am looking down the road when the Redskins are functioning at a high level in all phases of the game. I am talking about when teams are terrified to place 8 people in the box because Coles has a healthy toe and you have to double team him. If we get a legit WR via free agency like Jerry Porter then you have to double him so Coles, Cooley, Jacobs or Thrash is going to go nuts.

Basically I am saying that the only reason the counter and other running plays are not working is because teams do not have to respect all phases of the Redskins offense yet. I think you guys know the redskins well enough to know that we do not have a great deal of plays but we disguise them with a lot of motion and shifts. The phrase you will hear when the skins are on top of their game is PICK YOUR POISON. If you creep 8 into the box then Coles, Cooley, Jacobs and Porter-Hopefully are going to light you up. If you feel the need to lock down the recievers then Portis will light you up.

Yes defenses are more aggressive these days so the only way you can counter the aggressiveness is with balance. If you have balance then you can dictate to the defenses whne you run and pass which makes them less aggressive and more read and react. When Joes gibbs gets the Skins where he wants them to be....we will dictate to teams what we are going to do and they will be forced to pick their poison.

Example: The perfect storm was that first drive against the giants where Portis was running and Ramsey could use play action to pass when he wanted to because he was always in 2nd and short. Coughlin had no idea how to defend that drive because the Redskins were dictating what they did and when they would do it. The first drive of the SF game was another example.

We have shown glimpses of the perfect storm but we cannot do it consistently. Ramsey and the recievers have to make the passing game respectable before the running game gets going, otherwise our opponets will continue to key on Portis.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

I never watched much on Denver over the last few years but was Clinton effective on goal line situations there or did they normally have to resort to the pass? Maybe it is more our line and less Clinton but it still looks like a combination of both.

Portis was a very good goal line back in Denver. He has averaged
15tds a season in his first two years in the league. And trust me..
they were not all long runs either.

[IowaSkinsFan]

D lineman are too fast to run the counter as a goal line play these days. They are counting on penetration and when you pull two lineman you are just asking for someone to come in and blow up the play.

[hail2skins]

Mike, I know I must be misunderstanding you here... Given the choice between a diverse running system and one that rarely gets you more than three yards per play, you'd take the three-yarders because it makes you seem "though"?

You're misunderstanding my point. I'd like to see a more diverse running game too but because a play is only netting 3 yards doesn't mean it is bad. My point was that those tough yard runs are just as important as breaking the long run which won't happen often.

You'll have to ask Gibbs why he called the counter trey so often yesterday but my guess would be that he saw something on film with San Fran's defense that he thought he could exploit. Maybe, just maybe Gibbs was thinking that he didn't want to give Dallas anything to review on film.


Also as mentioned above, it doesn't matter what play you run, if all 11 players execute you'll be successful.

[smack500]

set the o line up like denver has had theirs the past few years, seems like it doesnt matter who the back is they acheive greatness because of the blocking schemes, or just a very good o line.

[IMALILTEAPOT]

Portis was a very good goal line back in Denver. He has averaged
15tds a season in his first two years in the league. And trust me..
they were not all long runs either.
it seemed like it though. we need to find a way to get him to break those 50 yarders more

[redskin_rich]

I like the counter trey. Its a play that wears down the defense. Its making a statement that you have to stop this all day long.
I don't think it is effective in goal line situations, its too slow in developing. I agree with what someone else said about using a lead blocker(H back) at the goal line.

[2Cooley]

Maybe he is going to wait untill next year to have the explosion on O so nobody will be able to prepare for it.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

You are judging the counter play and gibbs play calling based on what you have seen this season and on that note I would agree.

I am looking down the road when the Redskins are functioning at a high level in all phases of the game. I am talking about when teams are terrified to place 8 people in the box because Coles has a healthy toe and you have to double team him. If we get a legit WR via free agency like Jerry Porter then you have to double him so Coles, Cooley, Jacobs or Thrash is going to go nuts.

Basically I am saying that the only reason the counter and other running plays are not working is because teams do not have to respect all phases of the Redskins offense yet. I think you guys know the redskins well enough to know that we do not have a great deal of plays but we disguise them with a lot of motion and shifts. The phrase you will hear when the skins are on top of their game is PICK YOUR POISON. If you creep 8 into the box then Coles, Cooley, Jacobs and Porter-Hopefully are going to light you up. If you feel the need to lock down the recievers then Portis will light you up.

Yes defenses are more aggressive these days so the only way you can counter the aggressiveness is with balance. If you have balance then you can dictate to the defenses whne you run and pass which makes them less aggressive and more read and react. When Joes gibbs gets the Skins where he wants them to be....we will dictate to teams what we are going to do and they will be forced to pick their poison.

Example: The perfect storm was that first drive against the giants where Portis was running and Ramsey could use play action to pass when he wanted to because he was always in 2nd and short. Coughlin had no idea how to defend that drive because the Redskins were dictating what they did and when they would do it. The first drive of the SF game was another example.

We have shown glimpses of the perfect storm but we cannot do it consistently. Ramsey and the recievers have to make the passing game respectable before the running game gets going, otherwise our opponets will continue to key on Portis.

Well, Jim, I could give that argument to you about any play in any system. Hell, I could give that argument to you about the Fun'n'Gun. If everyone's playing amazing football, then of course the offense will be successful. My point is that your dream scenario rarely happens in the NFL. You've gotta make what you have work. The zone blocking quick hitters we saw against Detroit, Chicago, and New York worked very, very well. The counter has not worked very, very well this entire season. To say that it could work well if everyone on offense was dominating is true, but it's no different than saying that Virginia could get rid of speed limits if everyone would just drive perfectly everday. They don't.

[bgforever]

What was genius back in the day for that team isn't for this time around. What is genius, is what worked in Chicago, was working in the second Philly game, and clicked in the Tampa Bay and New York game. That's the running game we need and if it worked then, it WILL work against a defensive team like Dallas.

Gibbs won't talk and Portis, Betts, Bugel and the O line better not.

The way to beat a Dallas team this year is A game, A game, A game, and I have shown I have NO soft spot for Samuels, Pro Bowl or not, big and strong or not, so I say the same to Derrick Dockery or should I say, ask-

If you can so intelligently make plays for your name in lights, why can't you THINK CRUCIAL for once in making a play work on a drive, without your name being called to skim points off the offense. Hey man, you even false started a da8n up close field goal. I will say this Derrick Dockery, you have single handedly killed no less than 5 drives, costing us at least some BIG points in what was about to be pure difference makers. If you can't handle fame, leave football, and become a backwoods mechanic or something, where you can never be seen and no can see your glaring mistakes.

I know Derrick Dockery is an upcoming , whatever, but in the Not For Long, he is quickly showing signs of a bust. What good are the plays of the week of him knocking a guy on his a**, after he helped botch two scoring drives, that just happened to be the margin of victory. Seen it too much, to know the difference between coincidence and abilities. Maybe this is as high as a lot of the offensive players can now play.

Prove me wrong, like the D did and I will shut up! Don't and I will call for both Samuels and Dockeries, swift removal. Raymer is already feeling the heat,and I feel, he's not to blame by himself. These guys need to have an A game completely from the O-Line, NO penalties, NO sacks - strive for it dam88t!

[sdredskinsfan]

See the problem is not with the counter, but the personnel, execution and the lack of physical dominance.

The problem is the counter play relies on a power back that can break the first tackle he will encounter. We have portis who gives us more advantages but his biggest disadvantage is that he needs to be vitrually untouched by the time the pulling guards are in front of him. In other words, the counter worked great with Riggins, Riggs and Rogers because the first guys could never bring them down. Portis is supceptible to being brought down, but if you give him the smallest crease....see ya!


.

Riggs was a disappointment as a regular down back. But, I understand your point. Also, I noticed against the Giants that Portis was lined up behind the guard instead of the center to give the blockers time to pull.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Riggs was a disappointment as a regular down back. But, I understand your point. Also, I noticed against the Giants that Portis was lined up behind the guard instead of the center to give the blockers time to pull.

Yeah, that was a nice little adjustment. I also think lining him up a couple yards further back would be a good idea.

[Keino]

It should be pointed out that while there "tweeks" and "adjustments" in the Detroit and Chicago games, the staple running play was and still is the Counter Trey. I'd beg anyone of you saying that it cannot be successful in todays NFL to ask Priest Holmes, Derrick Blaylock and Larry Johnson if thats the case. We keep hearing about Denver and their Zone blocking schemes, while Vermeil has used the Counter as his staple running play.

Those of you wishing to see another running play as the staple play for the Washington Redskins, I would suggest you either get used to it, because it ain't gonna change or find a new team to cheer for, cuz it ain't gonna change. If the team executes it works just fine.........

[silverspring]

See the problem is not with the counter, but the personnel, execution and the lack of physical dominance.

I like your point, but I have to say i think the problem is what gibbs is doing with the personnel he has. You have to work to your strengths. I was baffled by the offensive game plan. Clearly our o-line has serious problems that aren't improving. This really shows up in the redzone, when a team is plagued by redzone issues you got to look at the o-line. With that being obvious why is gibbs running all these plays based on precise blocking execution? But more curious is why at this point in our season(yes I know we still have playoff chances) - we aren't trying something different. All year we have done things that succeed only to back pedal to the routines that failed. I couldn't believe that we didn't throw the ball downfield. This is the time to start opening it up and see if this stuff works. Does gibbs know you are allowed to use the middle of the field? And for god sakes why aren't we trying out these young WRs we have. Am i missing something shouldn't, jacobs should be on the field. We need to learn if this kid can be a play maker or do we need to acquire other WRs. I was baffled by the running game. Does he still have his playbook under a lock and key until next year?

[Smiley]

It's not effective until it's mastered, i saw some pretty good blocking on Saturday

[BandWagon]

You know, I know exactly what we're getting at with this thread...but the stark reality of it is..despite what our impressions of the counter are...or the relative merits of a zone blocking scheme...the fact of the matter is...Portis has steadily racked up nearly 1,300 yards with 2 games to go. He's got a shot to break the single season rushing record and we're complaining about the blocking scheme. I find that incredibly ironic.

[BIGSEF3]

but portis has done it with more carries than he ever had before, so that really skews things.

so that kieno doesnt get sassy, i checked nfl.com and check this out. :-)

in 2002, portis got 1508 rushing yards on 273 attempts for a 5.5 average.

in 2003, portis got 1591 yards on 290 attempts and had a 5.5 average.

in 2004, portis has 2 games left, in 2 games this season he had 11 and 8 carries (going by memory), yet he has amassed only 1283 yards on 333 attempts for a 3.9 average.

using the numbers from portis 1st 2 years, if he had stayed in the same system that uses zone blocking, he would have 1831.5 yards already with his 333!!!! attempts. he would also be set to break 2000 this year.


the facts show the system portis is in this year makes him far less effective than the system denver used last year, the system that has allowed portis his best games this year - zone blocking.

if gibbs wants to utilize his multimillion dollar weapon to its fullest and really chew up the clock with a solid running game, he needs to use a zoneblocking.

the amount of carries portis is getting now will exhaust him physically, increase his chance of getting injured, and undoubtably shorten his nfl career.

[Keino]

It has always been a Yard Churning style of Offense. If you look over the course of Gibbs' first tenure, the RB position averaged 3.8-4.2 YPC. This is called Smashmouth Football. 3 Yards and a Cloud of Dust BABY. Learn to love it, because when it's working, it is Football in it's purest form. "Oh you know where Im going to run it? good, try and stop it". Wear em down, then hit the big play.

The number of Mental Lapses and missed assignements on Offense are leading to us not sustaining drives and thus, no big plays as a result of not sustaining Offense. This is not Schematic as some of you wold suggest, rather it's execution.

We should be celebrating Portis' durability, as a major question mark surrounding him was whether he could maintain under the pounding that GIbbs back has to endure. So far he has passed with flying colors.

This is not Denver. We don't have an undersized, athletic offensive line with which to employ a Zone blocking Scheme as our staple running play, any suuggestion to the contrary and we are asking Gibbs to not play with the players he has.

[BIGSEF3]

i just know portis had the best games this year, with this personel, when they really did the zoneblocking. i agree with the other guys and gals here who have suggested we use portis in zoneblocking and maybe betts or even cooley to just go up the middle. do you think theres any chance we could get hoover from the panthers? that guy would be great for smash mouth football!!

[JoeDaSchmoe]

It has always been a Yard Churning style of Offense. If you look over the course of Gibbs' first tenure, the RB position averaged 3.8-4.2 YPC. This is called Smashmouth Football. 3 Yards and a Cloud of Dust BABY. Learn to love it, because when it's working, it is Football in it's purest form. "Oh you know where Im going to run it? good, try and stop it". Wear em down, then hit the big play.

The number of Mental Lapses and missed assignements on Offense are leading to us not sustaining drives and thus, no big plays as a result of not sustaining Offense. This is not Schematic as some of you wold suggest, rather it's execution.

We should be celebrating Portis' durability, as a major question mark surrounding him was whether he could maintain under the pounding that GIbbs back has to endure. So far he has passed with flying colors.

You can use all the pretty adjectives you want to describe the kind of football Gibbs is trying to get out of this team, but the fact of the matter is that every single one of us would take 5 yards per carry over 4.

This is not Denver. We don't have an undersized, athletic offensive line with which to employ a Zone blocking Scheme as our staple running play, any suuggestion to the contrary and we are asking Gibbs to not play with the players he has.

I could say the exact same thing about how he's using Portis.

[dj_stouty]

There is also a belief around the NFL...(as well as in the fanbase in Denver) that the Zone blocking used by the Denver O-line eventually leads to numerous injuries to their RBs. (More so than other blocking schemes)

T. Davis...Anderson...Portis...Griffith...Bell...Drou ghns all have been hit by the injury bug regularly while playing for their O-Line in Denver.

The simple fact that Portis has been injury free despite the # of carries impressess me. His biggest criticism coming to our team was his durability. He has proved that he can overcome that....but I wonder if the O-line has had a bit to do with that.

[Keino]

JDS I believe I used more than "Pretty Adjectives" but also provided some statistical basis for my opinion. Given your Penchant for glossing over facts, I thought I'd just mention that.

I've seen it work before. Thats my bottomline. The Counter-Trey is the staple running play in this offense, just like it is for the Chiefs. I notice you didn't quote that little tidbit in your response, because it contradicts the very premise of your thread. Your contention that the Counter cannot be an successful offense's staple play is simply not the case. The Chiefs have used it quite successfully since Vermeil has been their coach.

Would I'd rather have 5 yards per carry over 4? Sure. Does 4 YPC give us the chance to be successful? Absolutley. I point to the 3 Rings that the man you love to question brought us when we averaged about the same YPC.
Smashmouth Football baby. Learn to love it.

[BIGSEF3]

i think a good balance would be nice. use the counter trey alot, but every once in a while, throw some zone blocking in to catch the defense off guard and let portis get a good 20+ yard run.

we (myself included) have been criticizing the system, but it really could boil down to not having a good enough O-line. Next year with jansen back and maybe another solid addition to the line, and portis' continued acceptance of this scheme, might "Redefine" what the trey can accomplish. what if portis consistantly gets 5-6 yards using it next year?

[IowaSkinsFan]

Riggs was a disappointment as a regular down back. But, I understand your point. Also, I noticed against the Giants that Portis was lined up behind the guard instead of the center to give the blockers time to pull.


Riggs does own the single game record for Rushing, 221 yards against the Iggles, in 1988 I think.