It's X's and O's time kiddos!

[SkinsKY]

I thought I would bring the thread back again since it seemed fairly popular the last time.

Okay, we have a lot of new things to discuss since last time. Especially on offense. Here's the deal: If you comment on error, you must offer at least some kind of solution.


I'll start with defense because it will be quick. We allowed two drives all game. That's pretty impressive, but why did we allow two? There shouldn't be any. Well, our CBs played incredibly far off the ball. There was a 3rd and 4 call and Jimoh and Smoot were 10 yards off the ball. That's Williams' fault. Bring em up and challege those subpar WRs. Don't make it easy. I have a question for Erickson though. Why don't you run Barlow? The complexion of their offense changed when he entered the game. Good using the zone blitzes. Once we were burned for a pass, but Warner did get an interception another time. Okay, done with defense.

On offense:

We'll start with passing. Kudos to Ramsey who played a great game. He avoided the rush when he had to and made a DE miss on the one sack he did get. Nice work Pat. Almost all of our passes are still to the sideline. From the middle of the field, it is the same distance to throw a pass 25 yards in front of you than 10 yards forward and on the sideline. You are throwing a 25 yard pass for a 25 yard gain or throwing a 25 yard pass for a 10 yard gain. You can forget about RAC yards because the, shallower pass means more of the defense is in front of you. Up 26-9 is the perfect time to try some of those out. Also, throw more passes with WRs running up the field. It does no good to have a fast WR if they all catch passes at a standstill. You only gain extra yards on hook and hitch routes if the DB thinks you might go deep and goes too deep on the coverage. Overall though, a lot of improvement. I liked the bootlegs, but I wouldn't leave that DE unblocked anymore.

Running the football. A Joe Gibbs specialty. In terms of running the ball, we have had the worst. playcalling. ever. The addition of the full house shows some good variety and Kudos to Gibbs for that. What is not good is watching the counter trey 18-20 times a game. I think the play is sexy... when it works, but it has worked so seldom this year. It really is an easy play to spot. One of the easiest. Two players pull to the otherside of the line. It only happens on that play and defenses are two quick to really pull it off. We've seen some stretch plays and zone blocking and that has been a great boost for us. I think running some pass plays designed to get Portis the ball would help. Not just plays where he becomes the safety valve or a screen. Run that play that was called against GB. That was a good one. Send him out on routes with a LB on him. But this is the section on running the ball! I know, but by doing that the LB or Safety who is responsible has a to slow a little from the start to make sure Clinton's not out on a route and in that time buys him a step more. If you watch many of Clinton's runs of 4-6 yards, you see that one step more might be all he needs.

[Jimreaper007]

I thought I would bring the thread back again since it seemed fairly popular the last time.

Okay, we have a lot of new things to discuss since last time. Especially on offense. Here's the deal: If you comment on error, you must offer at least some kind of solution.


I'll start with defense because it will be quick. We allowed two drives all game. That's pretty impressive, but why did we allow two? There shouldn't be any. Well, our CBs played incredibly far off the ball. There was a 3rd and 4 call and Jimoh and Smoot were 10 yards off the ball. That's Williams' fault. Bring em up and challege those subpar WRs. Don't make it easy. I have a question for Erickson though. Why don't you run Barlow? The complexion of their offense changed when he entered the game. Good using the zone blitzes. Once we were burned for a pass, but Warner did get an interception another time. Okay, done with defense.


Nice thread and I am glad that someone is brave/intelligent enough to do X and O's. I will answer your post in three parts because this could get a little long trying to answer all of your comments.

Your First topic on Defense: Yes the corners were playing too far off the WR's but there is good reason for this. The linebackers were in underneath coverage. The problem was when the linebackers started to vacate their inside zone responsibilities that very good tight end would settle in the area where the Linebackers left.

Pierce and Washington were victimized all day by this because whenever Washington went to help out Jimoh underneath, that TE (Jones I believe) would be wide open in the vacated area. Pierce or the SS is repsonsible for that area if Washington is in underneath so it was either bad communication or that TE is just plain old good. I was surprised to see people awarding pierce the game ball because pierce will be a little upset looking at the film today. Jones either lit him up or the Strong Safety.

Now, what I glossed over at first was a fundementals shift that the redskins used yesterday. Williams went away from man coverage and played pretty much the whole game in zone because Springs was out and Jimoh is just not very good in man coverage. This game also exposed the one weakness Smoot has. Smoot is actually a better cover corner than Springs but he lacks that 5th gear to stay with the speediest recievers. If Smoot had the speed then Greg would not have changed from man coverage to zone. This attests to the year Springs is having as the #1 corner.

The game MVP on Defense is Griffin because his pressures caused the Taylor pick and the Pierce pick.

[Redskinmayhem]

This game also exposed the one weakness Smoot has. Smoot is actually a better cover corner than Springs but he lacks that 5th gear to stay with the speediest recievers. If Smoot had the speed then Greg would not have changed from man coverage to zone.


I noticed this as well....I thought smoot was going to get beat on every deep ball but he rocvers nicely. Don't be fooled into thinking the 49ers WR's a crap. Those guys are young hungry which = playmaking ability. Lloyd is decent and Battle and Wilson are up and coming. Eric Johnson is a pretty darn good TE. He made our Lb's pay for some mistakes. I think Springs helps out alot on good TE's. When Bowen comes back we'll be pretty much at fulll strength.

[SkinsKY]

I noticed this as well....I thought smoot was going to get beat on every deep ball but he rocvers nicely. Don't be fooled into thinking the 49ers WR's a crap. Those guys are young hungry which = playmaking ability. Lloyd is decent and Battle and Wilson are up and coming. Eric Johnson is a pretty darn good TE. He made our Lb's pay for some mistakes. I think Springs helps out alot on good TE's. When Bowen comes back we'll be pretty much at fulll strength.

Yes, the WRs are up and coming, but we played them yesterday, at a fixed point in time (not really fixed, but you get the idea). They may be great down the road, but they are not yet and I would have tested them until the proved they could beat me. On third down and short if you're worried about the TE (Jim, that was a good point and I missed the LBs on the underneath on that one), put a man on him and help Jimoh out some other way. In that situation, I would probably put Pierce or Washington on Johnoson, while putting Jimoh in a flat zone with a safety in man coverage on Jimoh's WR and drift that way to cover over the top. I don't really fear a deep ball in this instance and if so, you have a safety who's already deep to provide coverage.

[AshlynSkins]

On Defense, other then the 1st drive for the 9ers in which was a terrible call for hands to the face by Smoot (when it was actually the WR who should have been flagged) Sean Taylor on the TD pass to LLoyd who was let go by Harris to the inside was turned to the wrong side and was to late in recovering and the WR was open in the endzone. THe 2nd series he came back and made up for that little mistake w/the INT.

On Offense, the x's and o's inside the red zone, (more so the 1st and goals) are terrible play calling imho, why isn't there anything to the ends, all up the middle runs, (and if you're going to do then why not bring in Betts for Portis?), I just wish when we have 1st and goal that the calls would be a little more TD friendly instead of just hoping that a run up the middle could plug it in for a TD, granted I love points, but when you're inside the 5 and 1st and goal you have to come away with 6 imho.

[SkinsKY]

On Offense, the x's and o's inside the red zone, (more so the 1st and goals) are terrible play calling imho, why isn't there anything to the ends, all up the middle runs, (and if you're going to do then why not bring in Betts for Portis?), I just wish when we have 1st and goal that the calls would be a little more TD friendly instead of just hoping that a run up the middle could plug it in for a TD, granted I love points, but when you're inside the 5 and 1st and goal you have to come away with 6 imho.

I held off on the goalline play calls, but I guess I'll say my piece now. You can't run Portis three times in to a wall and hope he gets through. He's not that type of back. You can't simply run the edge because the line turns into a moving all of sorts. That said, I think you ought to run the ball on first down and less than five. On first and five, I would still spread the offense out with three WRs. Let Portis pick a crease for five yards. Second, you don't run a dive or counter the next play. You have a couple of options. Play action. That's about it With a good power back, the choices increase. Putting two backs in the backfield means that choices increase. You want a pile driver effect and not a long line effect.

Anyway, play action. I'd almost bet you could bootleg Ramsey out for a rushing TD. If not bootleg him and send Cooley out with a WR trailing behind him. That gives three options. As far as the shovel pass, run it on second. You don't count on a trick play to bail you out. For third, you need to find something to your TE or run one of our patented hook routes or something, but you just need a quick window and no more than two reads (although you still need to send out more people.

[IndianBaller27]

Defense:
Why are the CB's playing ten yards off the ball?? That should never happen against just average recievers. Like SkinsKY said, that's Williams' fault. If it were me, I would've been doing bump and run on 'em. Williams needs to fix that. Play four or five yards off the ball next week against Dallas.

Offense:
Offense, offense, offense. Pathetic redzone play yesterday. I was about to cry. You should never see a team have 26 points... Unless it came from a safety, field goal, and 3 TD's. But 4 field goals??? THREE FROM INSIDE THE 10 YARDLINE?!?!?! Mix it up Gibbs!! All three times he ran it on first and second down and went nowhere except backwards. Then they were in an obvious passing situation on third down. On two of them, from what I saw, they had some pretty wide open guys. The first time, they had a guy streaking over the middle that Pat never saw. He was waving his arms and everything, but Ramsey didn't see him. Then the other time, Rod Gardner was wide open in the back of the endzone, but Patrick overthrew it. It's not all Ramey's fault though. Gibbs has to mix it up. Next week, when we're in the red zone, we should pass on first down and see how it goes. If we don't score, then run it. If we still don't score then we obviously have to pass it. But we shouldn't get to third down.

[Jimreaper007]

I noticed this as well....I thought smoot was going to get beat on every deep ball but he rocvers nicely. Don't be fooled into thinking the 49ers WR's a crap. Those guys are young hungry which = playmaking ability. Lloyd is decent and Battle and Wilson are up and coming. Eric Johnson is a pretty darn good TE. He made our Lb's pay for some mistakes. I think Springs helps out alot on good TE's. When Bowen comes back we'll be pretty much at fulll strength.


I see your point Mayhem, but if that had been Brett Favre and not Ken Dorsey Favre places that ball where Smoot cannot get it.

I Love Fred Smoot but his one weakness is the one thing that you cannot teach (speed). The good thing about smoot is that he plays within his own limits. Smoot is exposed when we play teams like the rams who have two great WR's. Terry Holt made smoot look like he had on cement cleats this Pre-season.

Bowen: I like Bowen's experience and hard hits, but his lack of coverage skills and speed will probably lead to his role either being reduced or his release. The fact is the other guys we have can cover and stay with WR's/TE's. Bowen was exposed in the Giants game when Carter ran right by him like he was standing still on a long TD strike.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

The red zone offense was atrocious because it was the single most predictable stretch of football (other than 4th quarter procedures) I've ever seen in my entire life.

[dj_stouty]

Well, our CBs played incredibly far off the ball. There was a 3rd and 4 call and Jimoh and Smoot were 10 yards off the ball. That's Williams' fault. Bring em up and challege those subpar WRs. Don't make it easy.

I think Williams did that to bait them into early passing situations. He knew that if the CBs played far off the ball, they would see more passes, and Williams could get some blitzing in and possibly create a turnover or sack for negative yardage. And it pretty much worked...as Dorsey was knocked down about a dozen times, thrown off his game, and even tossed up some easy picks to the D-backs/LBs.

When my Dad taught me the game of Chess, he taught me about the "poisoned pawn" tactic. Basically, you move your pawn so it is easily taken w/out a chance for retaliation on your part. Your opponent thinks he has gotten the advantage, but in reality, you have forced him to move his pieces around the board as you have secretly designed him to do. It sets up an even bigger move on him shortly down the road. Give up a pawn now...take a rook and bishop later.

I thought of that yesterday watching the CBs play 10-12 yards off the receivers. I really thought they were baiting San Fran...and in essence, forcing them to change the playcalling that eventually fell into Williams' favor.

[SkinsKY]

I wondered about that a little as well DJ, but do you really want to bait someone with Jimoh? I didn't think it was wise. It might be great with Springs in the line up but I think it's risky otherwise.

[flave1969]

In the Redzone. If you put all those men on the line that is when I would send Cooley or Royal up and out to the sideline with Patrick rolling out. Does anyone remember the 4th and 1 in Superbowl 17. Well we had Don Warren in motion and Otis Wonsley as the lead blocker for Riggo. Warren sealed the end, Wonsley absolutely launched himself at the linebacker who was coming up to fill the hole and we know what happened next. What the play had was penetration at a pre conceived point. If you target a hole and try and clear it out that gives a play looking to gain just a yard a much better chance of success.

If you have all the men up on the line, the spare defenders can key on the back. If you have a lead blocker it can buy you the second you need. I really think we approach running in the Redzone the wrong way.

[redskin_rich]

I held off on the goalline play calls, but I guess I'll say my piece now. You can't run Portis three times in to a wall and hope he gets through. He's not that type of back. You can't simply run the edge because the line turns into a moving all of sorts. That said, I think you ought to run the ball on first down and less than five. On first and five, I would still spread the offense out with three WRs. Let Portis pick a crease for five yards. Second, you don't run a dive or counter the next play. You have a couple of options. Play action. That's about it With a good power back, the choices increase. Putting two backs in the backfield means that choices increase. You want a pile driver effect and not a long line effect.

I agree with you. I think if Portis is in 1st and goal you pitch out to him on the long side of the field, he should have the speed to get around. If you're going to plunge up the middle, you need a bigger back.
On 2nd down I like a bootleg where either the QB keeps it or tosses it to a TE.

[LATrueRedskin]

You da man, SkinsKY.

On defense: We gave up that first touchdown because our DB's (mainly Jimoh) were playing way too far off the line and giving their suspect WR's too much credit. That, forces Washington and Marshall to have to leave their zones, leaving somebody open every time. I don't like Jimoh out on the field playing defense. But, we had to use him. My only correction is to get those guys further up. There's no reason on 3rd and 6 to give a 7 or 8 yard cushion on your side of the 50.

On offense: Redzone. We can play with the best of them between the 20's of the field. But when we get to the redzone, we fall on our faces. Running the ball, I want to see zone blocking, because Portis excels in that and our offensive line is just not good enough to block the way Gibbs and Buges want them to. I'd also get rid of the 1 WR formation. Who are we kidding with that, it's not fooling anybody. Spread it out a bit, use Coles, Gardner, AND Thrash or McCants at the SAME time. Run Coles deep every now and then to show that we're thinking about it. Screen passes to Portis would work greatly, if he can prove to be able to catch. If you notice, he'd be wide open with a screen at times, but he's never used by Gibbs. I think our biggest fault is our offensive playcalling. It just seems that we're picking the worst possible play at the worst possible time, especially in the redzone. Getting back to our redzone woes, with our lack of run blocking, don't run the ball on both 1st and second down. If we don't get anything running on first down, we can't run it again. That will quickly bring us to third and goal, and it's obvious what we have to do. I'd like to see a quick count with a playaction on first down, and see if we can fool their defense and get the score.

[Skinz4lyfe]

On Defense I agree with the masses that we needed to play closer to the line of scrimmage to start the game. However, it appears as the game went on the defense made that adjustment as well as taking Jimoh out of the game (for all the Jimoh bashers out there). They actually played Wilds (I think) in the second half. I called that INT that Sean Taylor made. I was telling my friend sitting next to me that Taylor was gonna make a play on the ball. It was beautiful to see because it appeared that the WR was open on the play but Taylor baited Dorsey into throwing that pass. Great play!

On offense Gibbs must do 1 of 2 things. He must either (a) get the offensive line to be more dominant at the point of attack, (b) mix up the play calling, or (c) do both. Too many counter treys and they weren't working. Once again that silly WR screen pass needs to be scrapped from our play book. We've run that play about 3,854 times to many. Then the red zone offense....(sigh). How do you expect to score when your calls go as follows: run, run, pass, run, run, pass, run, run, pass? That doesn't make sense. We must try a play action of 1st down every now and then. Portis will be happy we did.

[dj_stouty]

I wondered about that a little as well DJ, but do you really want to bait someone with Jimoh?

Why not. You can't get any more "poisoned" than Ade! ;)

[SkinsKY]

Why not. You can't get any more "poisoned" than Ade! ;)

fair enough :bsmile:

[Ohiofan]

I remain amazed that Gibbs cannot see how utterly predictable his calls are inside the 20. This is the guy who is supposed to be an offensive genius and he acts like he is Woody Hayes in the Big Ten during the 1960's. The single biggest upgrade we can make in the off season is for Gibbs to have a reality check and realize that defenses are much, much faster than 15 years ago. I find it hard to accept that Gibbs is the weak link on this team.
But that is how it has been this year. I really, really hope that in the offseason Gibbs takes a long hard look at his impersonation of Woody Hayes and goes back to being Joe Gibbs.

[dj_stouty]

I remain amazed that Gibbs cannot see how utterly predictable his calls are inside the 20. This is the guy who is supposed to be an offensive genius and he acts like he is Woody Hayes in the Big Ten during the 1960's. The single biggest upgrade we can make in the off season is for Gibbs to have a reality check and realize that defenses are much, much faster than 15 years ago. I find it hard to accept that Gibbs is the weak link on this team.
But that is how it has been this year. I really, really hope that in the offseason Gibbs takes a long hard look at his impersonation of Woody Hayes and goes back to being Joe Gibbs.

Why should you be surprised? After all, weren't you the one who called him senile and delusional earlier in the year? :rolleyes:

[redwolf1218]

Lots of stuff here about Gibbs being predictable. First of all, that's nothing new. Anyone remember Bostic and Theisman talking about how they ran the same play 9 times in a row again the cowboys years ago? Bostic said he pointed and told their defense "we are running right there again." Theisman said he tried twice to audible out of the play but Gibbs over-ruled him and told him to run it again. The difference is we had the league's most dominant offensive line back then, which we do not have now, but hopefully we will get back to that soon... Secondly, Gibbs is famous for his ability to adjust, which he has been doing slowly but surely, and i'm confident he will continue to adjust.

[dj_stouty]

Lots of stuff here about Gibbs being predictable. First of all, that's nothing new. Anyone remember Bostic and Theisman talking about how they ran the same play 9 times in a row again the cowboys years ago? Bostic said he pointed and told their defense "we are running right there again." Theisman said he tried twice to audible out of the play but Gibbs over-ruled him and told him to run it again. The difference is we had the league's most dominant offensive line back then, which we do not have now, but hopefully we will get back to that soon... Secondly, Gibbs is famous for his ability to adjust, which he has been doing slowly but surely, and i'm confident he will continue to adjust.

Great post, RedWolf...

Had Ramsey actually hit the open Rod Garnder in the back of the endzone instead of overthrowing him, there wouldn't be threads like this today....

[LATrueRedskin]

Lots of stuff here about Gibbs being predictable. First of all, that's nothing new. Anyone remember Bostic and Theisman talking about how they ran the same play 9 times in a row again the cowboys years ago? Bostic said he pointed and told their defense "we are running right there again." Theisman said he tried twice to audible out of the play but Gibbs over-ruled him and told him to run it again. The difference is we had the league's most dominant offensive line back then, which we do not have now, but hopefully we will get back to that soon... Secondly, Gibbs is famous for his ability to adjust, which he has been doing slowly but surely, and i'm confident he will continue to adjust.

I agree that Gibbs is making his adjustments, but not as fast as we have seen from him. Our offense is getting better and better production wise, and our OLine is increasing their pass blocking. Our main fault right now is the run blocking scheme. I'd like to see more zone blocking.