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View Full Version : Vision Quest: 'Washington should look to New England for their off season game plan'


PennSkinsFan
02-08-2005, 01:02 PM
hR Staff Writer, Dustin, brings us an opinion on an off-season blueprint to success.

READ IT (http://www.hailredskins.com/VisionQuest.htm)

smoak
02-08-2005, 01:20 PM
Very interesting. I'd disagree with some of the points, but it was a great read.

flave1969
02-08-2005, 01:53 PM
Nice article Dustin. I am not sure it would be easy to establish the blueprint of the Pats in Washington, but the value of the draft is clear to see. For us to do profit we will have to stop trading away draft picks on an annual basis.

CNYSkinFan
02-08-2005, 01:55 PM
Nice article Dustin. I am not sure it would be easy to establish the blueprint of the Pats in Washington, but the value of the draft is clear to see. For us to do profit we will have to stop trading away draft picks on an annual basis.

I am not sure we will have a choice. The irony is we may be forced to do it the right way the next couple of years because of our cap situation.

Cooley19
02-08-2005, 02:41 PM
Very nice article. The NFL is basically a copycat league so a lot of other teams will probably try to do what the Patriots have done.

techskinsfan
02-08-2005, 02:52 PM
the patriots didnt draft rodney harrsion...and they didnt sign dillion...free agent risk they took that noone else would...and a trade for a disgruntled rb who was said to be a cancer...both gambles that worked out...the pats take more risks than people think...i dont believe that draft first is the way to build a team...u dont know who falls to u where...u can plan going into the draft on gettin someone...fill major holes in free agency smartly (ie center and wr) and draft and find rook free agents for the future (ie findin gilds and brown with smoot leaving)...i do agree that we put too much emphasis on free agent spending...but now we need to find a center in free agency im not comfortable with a rook at that position...draft a de to improve the dline possibly this year...more than likely next year...draft some oline depth for possible departures...draft a wr to challenge jacobs and mccants if hes around and incase coles toe forces him from the game...im just sayin that a draft heavy offseason plan is not the right way to go about it...spending intelligently and drafting for the future is...i do agree with cutting older players for hungrier younger players...that we draft now...so i guess our plans are somewhat similar...i just wouldnt mortgage my future on teh draft...great read though well done

skins111111
02-08-2005, 03:16 PM
another good article Dustin.......I believe we are already doing #!,#4, and #5
and will probably stick with #3......we look to be doing just the opposite with #2 but hey thats the blueprint for the pats and there are a lot other blueprints that have won SBs...........with JGs experience and integraty I am confident that his blueprint will work, he is very open minded and has no problem tweaking his blueprint.

Dexter72
02-08-2005, 03:17 PM
Here is how I see NE: They brought in a great defensive coach (Belichick) who was able to get the players he needed to emulate what he did with the Giants...a DL built to play the run with 3 physical 300+ pounders (Seymour, Warren, and Traylor/Ted Washington...in NY it was Burt, Marshall, and Howard) a set of 4 very good play-making LBs (McGinest, Bruschi, Vrabel, Ted Johnson, not to mention Colvin. In NY - LT, Pepper, Banks, and Carson) and a solid secondary that plays smart and doesn't take big gambles.

Offensively, the Pats have just been butt lucky. They found a gem in the 6th round in Brady and have been able to give him very solid pass protection with a bunch of no names (a 2nd rounder at LT, 2 undrafted free agents, a 5th rounder, and a 7th rounder). The only thing I can figure with the O Line is that they maybe smartly focused on bringing in athletic 300 pounders who can move their feet and pass protect well, as opposed to the 340+ pounders who can't, and seem to get the hype at draft time.

Skinz4lyfe
02-08-2005, 05:17 PM
Smoot and Samuels needs to read #5. Smoot we love you in Redskin country but taking a decent contract offer (even if its less than what you believe you're worth) actually helps the team. If you wanna do your part in keeping our team together lets work together and get a deal done ($10 million signing bonus isn't bad at all). That goes for you too Mr.Samuels.

techskinsfan
02-08-2005, 05:42 PM
would u accept a job that paid u less than u thought u were qualified for...thats bologna...if the skins were a winning team then i could see ur point...they havent been...and we dont have the reputation for keepin continuity and keepin players around...or being overly loyal to our players(now i think were loyal as fans but in the front office i have a feeling they have a rep of not being loyal...esp with the lavar thing and some of the cuts and such...purely speculation just a feeling) look at it as an employee of a company...more money and probably stability or less money less stability but the place u have played for a while and love the town n the town loves u...now yes i think he should do all he can to try to stay around...and i feel that the money is about right...but he and his agent may thinnk theyre gettin lowballed...i cant fault the guy...but id love to keep him around and want him to stay

CrimsonTribe
02-08-2005, 06:12 PM
Might want to do some fact checking. Harrison was never a young player for the Pats. He was signed last year after 7 yrs in San Diego.

Skinz4lyfe
02-08-2005, 06:20 PM
would u accept a job that paid u less than u thought u were qualified for...thats bologna...if the skins were a winning team then i could see ur point...they havent been...and we dont have the reputation for keepin continuity and keepin players around...or being overly loyal to our players(now i think were loyal as fans but in the front office i have a feeling they have a rep of not being loyal...esp with the lavar thing and some of the cuts and such...purely speculation just a feeling) look at it as an employee of a company...more money and probably stability or less money less stability but the place u have played for a while and love the town n the town loves u...now yes i think he should do all he can to try to stay around...and i feel that the money is about right...but he and his agent may thinnk theyre gettin lowballed...i cant fault the guy...but id love to keep him around and want him to stay

That's not a fair argument to begin with. First of all, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that 99.9% of the posters on this board don't make as much as the average NFL player. So to say that I wouldn't take less than what I'm worth wouldn't necessarily apply in this case. However, not that its any of your business but I have taken less than what I'm worth for the benefit of my family! That's not bolongna! In negotiating you have to take everything into consideration and that's what I did in negotiating my salary at my job. I knew I'd get less but if it meant less commute time, more flexibility, more room for growth and increased job stability in my position then I'm all for it. Now with Smoot, if taking less means staying under our good defensive staff and becoming a better player and allowing other teammates to be resigned then I'm saying take a chance and do it. I'm saying sure things haven't turned out good in the past but this year things appear to be turning around. If Smoot wants to be a part of something special he needs to consider what's more important to him and I guess for him its more the money. Knowing the history that the Redskins have had in signing players I very seriously doubt that Smoot is being lowballed. However, I am sure that he probably could get more money elsewhere (Not a great deal more though). A similar case is Lawyer Malloy. They were coming off missing the playoffs the year before and he wouldn't take a pay cut. So now where is he? Stuck in Buffalo while his former teammates celebrate back-to-back championships.

RedskinsDave
02-08-2005, 06:27 PM
We're too far along to become like the Patriots. We would have to scrap the whole deal now and start over and that's just not happening under Danny.

CNYSkinFan
02-08-2005, 06:58 PM
Might want to do some fact checking. Harrison was never a young player for the Pats. He was signed last year after 7 yrs in San Diego.

You are right. I rushed the article to get it out. I made a mistake on Harrison and should of said Dillon was a trade and not a Free Agent signing. I mis spoke on those items in the article. I will endeavor not to do it again.

As for the rest I still stand by it. I don't think we have to do too much to start doing what the Patriots do. And I don't think we have a choice. Large batches of free agents will not be coming our way for at least three years. We can't afford them. Build depth and young hungry stars through the draft and sign limited but key free agents.

Also say goodbye to under performing and over expensive vets. This does directly apply to Samuels and possibly Smoot. If Samuels does not restructure and Smoot does not drop his demands then we have to let them both go. If Pierce wants to hold out for too much then let Williams find a replacement middle linebacker.

We are not far away from doing what the Pats do. We just have to make some hard choices this year and keep our draft picks.

Jimreaper007
02-08-2005, 07:03 PM
We're too far along to become like the Patriots. We would have to scrap the whole deal now and start over and that's just not happening under Danny.



I agree with Dave,

If we want to be like the pats we are gonna have to trade off all our stars for picks and experience some very lean years.

techskinsfan
02-08-2005, 07:27 PM
That's not a fair argument to begin with. First of all, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that 99.9% of the posters on this board don't make as much as the average NFL player. So to say that I wouldn't take less than what I'm worth wouldn't necessarily apply in this case. However, not that its any of your business but I have taken less than what I'm worth for the benefit of my family! That's not bolongna! In negotiating you have to take everything into consideration and that's what I did in negotiating my salary at my job. I knew I'd get less but if it meant less commute time, more flexibility, more room for growth and increased job stability in my position then I'm all for it. Now with Smoot, if taking less means staying under our good defensive staff and becoming a better player and allowing other teammates to be resigned then I'm saying take a chance and do it. I'm saying sure things haven't turned out good in the past but this year things appear to be turning around. If Smoot wants to be a part of something special he needs to consider what's more important to him and I guess for him its more the money. Knowing the history that the Redskins have had in signing players I very seriously doubt that Smoot is being lowballed. However, I am sure that he probably could get more money elsewhere (Not a great deal more though). A similar case is Lawyer Malloy. They were coming off missing the playoffs the year before and he wouldn't take a pay cut. So now where is he? Stuck in Buffalo while his former teammates celebrate back-to-back championships.
i want to apologize if i struck a nerve that was not my intention...and this is true i would probalby do the same for the sake of my family...i was just sayin that the fact that he should accept less here to do us a favor...he shouldnt(although alot of us would love this)...if i were him id go for the money...money makes the world go around and the free agency carosaul...and y would he take less here was my argument too...we dont have a rep for winning as of right now although i think that ship is being turned...that was the main part of my argumen...and it seems like we are gonna be in this supposed cap hell soon so id be scared about stability if i were freddy...i apologize though...and i guess family wasnt a thought of mine cuz i dont have one...didnt go thru all the possibilities...

IowaSkinsFan
02-08-2005, 07:44 PM
You've got a knack for writing Dustin, that much is certain.

But I agree with Dave, especially when it comes to building through the draft. If we were to promote that philosophy, wait, strike that, if Danny was to promote that philosophy, then the next season in which we did that (built through the draft) would be the first.

1. This team is heavily built through FA. I, maybe more than any other fan, desire to return to the draft and make it more than just a 1 hour interest for us. I would like to see a team of Redskins built by Redskins, not former Jets or former Colts or former Broncos or former Jaguars or former Jints or former Bears and the list goes on da dum da dum da da dum.

4. Hire good assitants. GW seems to have that covered on the defensive side, but I am curious as to what Joe Gibbs saw in Bill Musgrave? He quit his first job, I don't remember what happened in between stops and finally got canned in Jacksonville for having an offense just slightly better than the Redskins and he had Fred Taylor, Jimmy Smith and Byron Leftwhich? To say that Musgrave has a track record of success is tantamount to saying Spence has conservative voting tendencies. Not to mention that Musgrave is a disciple of the WCO. Joe's offense has about as much in common with the WCO as RedskinsDave and Spence's political beliefs. Before Bill can help young Patrick, he is going to have to learn this offense and Joe's philosophy first. How long will that take? How long did it take Patrick?

5. We don't have any selfless players. I can't think of one Tedy Bruschi on this team, a player who would go to the owner and do his own contract and not ask for the bank. Tedy asked for, and got a deal any owner would jump at, $2 a year for 4 years. Wait, we do have a player like that, Ethan Albright. He always asks for the minimum for a player of his experience. I think Danny finds that a relief. The problem for us is that he is a long snapper. I don't think Lavar would ever do that, and quite frankly, Bruschi makes twice, three times as many plays as Lavar does. I hope Lavar changes that next season, but thus far, he pales in comparison, IMO.

I like your article, a good read. And I wish the Redskins were more like the Pats, especially in the win column. I just think we would have to do as Dave suggests, and scrap everything and start over to follow their blueprint.

RedskinRyan
02-08-2005, 08:51 PM
its gonne be a couple of years before we can really implement this system with all of the big contract players(brunell, portis, coles, arrington, griffin, springs) we have. but yes i'd definitly like to follow this method. goodbye to samuels and smoot most likely, but every player is replaceable.

Skinz4lyfe
02-08-2005, 09:23 PM
i want to apologize if i struck a nerve that was not my intention...and this is true i would probalby do the same for the sake of my family...i was just sayin that the fact that he should accept less here to do us a favor...he shouldnt(although alot of us would love this)...if i were him id go for the money...money makes the world go around and the free agency carosaul...and y would he take less here was my argument too...we dont have a rep for winning as of right now although i think that ship is being turned...that was the main part of my argumen...and it seems like we are gonna be in this supposed cap hell soon so id be scared about stability if i were freddy...i apologize though...and i guess family wasnt a thought of mine cuz i dont have one...didnt go thru all the possibilities...

No problem! :) You didn't strike a nerve with me regarding the whole taking a salary thing. I was merely drawing a comparison to make my point. But what does irk me is the fact that more often then not players chase the money rather than "taking one for the team". Sure our team hasn't been good since he's been here but I'm reasoning for logic rather than greed. I want him to see the fact that this year our team performed pretty well the 2nd half of the year and that we have a good chance to turn things around next year. I'm tired of seeing greedy players chase the money rather than a chance at a ring (not saying that we have a good chance though). I probably wouldn't be making this argument if we had 'Ol ball coach but w/Gibbs and GW, we can build on our late season improvement. We haven't been winning but Gibbs has a history of winning and he needs to remember what happened in Gibbs second year w/the team in his first stint. However, it all starts w/continuity! :Peace:

redskin_rich
02-08-2005, 09:26 PM
Another great article CNY, I would love to build our team with players like the Pats have. My question is, where would they be if they had not have gotten lucky on Brady? It's hypothetical but I have to believe luck plays a big role in the scheme of things.

techskinsfan
02-09-2005, 12:41 AM
No problem! :) You didn't strike a nerve with me regarding the whole taking a salary thing. I was merely drawing a comparison to make my point. But what does irk me is the fact that more often then not players chase the money rather than "taking one for the team". Sure our team hasn't been good since he's been here but I'm reasoning for logic rather than greed. I want him to see the fact that this year our team performed pretty well the 2nd half of the year and that we have a good chance to turn things around next year. I'm tired of seeing greedy players chase the money rather than a chance at a ring (not saying that we have a good chance though). I probably wouldn't be making this argument if we had 'Ol ball coach but w/Gibbs and GW, we can build on our late season improvement. We haven't been winning but Gibbs has a history of winning and he needs to remember what happened in Gibbs second year w/the team in his first stint. However, it all starts w/continuity! :Peace:
i agree...it pisses me off too sometimes and if smoot leaves cuz of it ill be upset but i cant blame him...also another side to the smoot thing...i was talkin to my pops about his situation today...and he said that gibbs needs to find a way to keep him around if he wants the team to buy into the continuity and stuff that he is preaching...that he tried to show by leaving in brunell for so long...that he is tryin to show by lockin up ap...although i think smoot is drinking outta champs waterbottle(greedbottle) a little...he said something that one time that disturbed me about talkin to champ about being in washington...so hopefully if he left it wouldnt destroy the continuity theory gibbs is tryin to preach...but id like to see gibbs and them figure something out

Skinz4lyfe
02-09-2005, 01:59 AM
i agree...it pisses me off too sometimes and if smoot leaves cuz of it ill be upset but i cant blame him...also another side to the smoot thing...i was talkin to my pops about his situation today...and he said that gibbs needs to find a way to keep him around if he wants the team to buy into the continuity and stuff that he is preaching...that he tried to show by leaving in brunell for so long...that he is tryin to show by lockin up ap...although i think smoot is drinking outta champs waterbottle(greedbottle) a little...he said something that one time that disturbed me about talkin to champ about being in washington...so hopefully if he left it wouldnt destroy the continuity theory gibbs is tryin to preach...but id like to see gibbs and them figure something out

Your dad is absolutely right! Gibbs is trying to "go against the norm" and this offseason is highly critical to the success of the Redskins. Will the team buy into Gibbs' plan? Gibbs has said time and time again he wants a core group of guys to build his team around. I can only assume that Smoot is one of the guys he wants to remain on the team based on his comments about Smoot. However, due to this era of free agency, it is increasingly difficult to pull it off. I didn't like the fact that Smoot was asking Chump for advise on how to play the open market of free agency. That's like me being an accountant and asking an accountant of Enron what are the proper techniques in reporting financial data.

Jimreaper007
02-09-2005, 05:47 AM
I am all for adapting the Pats system but if any of you old hats here remember that was OUR system first. Bobby beathard never used high draft picks and always traded them for either a proven player or for more lower round picks.

NE is not breaking any new ground here, they are just the first team to have success with it in the era of free agency. I would agree that the skins need a GM like the guy in Baltimore who really knows how to evaluate talent in order for the skins to go back to their old system.

Redblood
02-09-2005, 06:54 AM
I am all for adapting the Pats system but if any of you old hats here remember that was OUR system first. Bobby beathard never used high draft picks and always traded them for either a proven player or for more lower round picks.

NE is not breaking any new ground here, they are just the first team to have success with it in the era of free agency. I would agree that the skins need a GM like the guy in Baltimore who really knows how to evaluate talent in order for the skins to go back to their old system.

It was the combination of Bobby Beathard and HOF Coach Gibbs which set the tone for our team success during HOF Coach Gibbs first term! The Patriots copied our success formula, pure and simple!

joethefan
02-09-2005, 07:34 AM
Dustin, you have touched on many points that I never thought of...even though I have a pretty good understanding of where we are. By using the Patriots as an example of what needs to be done, was a very interesting analogy.....great work.

CNYSkinFan
02-09-2005, 09:43 AM
Another great article CNY, I would love to build our team with players like the Pats have. My question is, where would they be if they had not have gotten lucky on Brady? It's hypothetical but I have to believe luck plays a big role in the scheme of things.

Luck always plays a role, espescially with low round draft picks. But I have a theory on luck in the NFl that I get from playing poker alot. When I go out to the Casino or play with friends there is always somebody complaining about Luck. And luck exists don't get me wrong. But the good card players put themselves in a better position to be lucky then the bad card players. I think the same can be said about NFL front offices. The Pats got lucky with Brady but the Pats put all the right tools around him and could reap the rewards of getting lucky better then most teams.

Cruising270
02-09-2005, 09:45 AM
I loved this article and couldn't agree more. The problem in Washington is that players come here to get paid.....that has become our reputation. Now the one thing that the Patriots have an edge on keeping players for less money is their success. If we wont the last 3 out of 4 SuperBowls we'd have an easier time in getting people to stay with us without having a lottery sized contract. What if you were a highly talented athlete playing for San Fran right now and you just became an unrestricted free agent would you want to take a pay cut to stay??? Now imagine you play for New England......you might be a little more willing now, right? Nobody wants to loose but even less people want to loose for less money.

I do not doubt we will eventually have this luxury again, but it's gonna take time. This won't be an over-night change in mentality especially with our Snyder's reputation of paying players. We need to be more strict with what we spend on players, because it has a trickle effect. If we resign Smoot for more money and bigger bonus than he deserves (I love the guy, don't want him to leave) then Springs is gonna use Smoot as an example when its his time to resign/renegotiate.

With Gibbs back in town I already see a different mentality here, and I hope it keeps improving. He is our only hope of building a team players want to play for because while the above still holds true of winning games keeps players, Gibbs also builds great trust and repore with his men and that carries alot of clout.

Jimreaper007
02-09-2005, 12:37 PM
The patriots re-invented the wheel.


This is not a new science and they struggled a bit before righting the ship. The pats are using the old Bobby Beathard formula of avoiding high draft picks and gathering a bunch of FOOTBALL PLAYERS. Beathard gathered the players and Gibbs maximized their talents because they had the Redskin attitude.

This is not a new science...they are just the first to do it in the salary cap era. Belichek is old school and when he took over the patriots they were an absolute wreck. He took a little Parcells, a little Joe Gibbs and a little bit of Bill Walsh and combined that into what the Pats are today. They run and play action like the old Skins, They are dominant on Defense with special emphasis on Linebackers like Parcell's Giants and they can short pass you to death with those spread sets and quick underneath passes alla Bill Walsh and the 49ers.

They draft smart football players who are can adapt to change and are willing to do whatever it takes to win. The patriots are a culmination of the 80's and 90's. They are doing a great job and the Skins can do the same thing but some lean years are ahead. I am sure belichek learned a lot from losing to the Skins during the 80's. He saw the machine like efficiency of the Skins and the 49ers and he incorporated that into his Pats.

MoeRedskins
02-09-2005, 12:46 PM
The fact of the matter is you can say we need to copy NEs blueprint, but with synder leading the way that won't be possible. The one thing that NE has is patience, a virtue that Synder is lacking. For the Skins to be succesful they need to get rid of Cerrato (outside of his first draft class, which was a softball, his talent evaluation has been poor at best) and hire a GM (i believe Gibbs knows what he is doing, but I just don't believe in the whole Coach/GM thing, it has only worked well in one or two places). I whole scouting department in Ashburn needs a little lift, although they did hit the nail on the head with Cooley.

CNYSkinFan
02-09-2005, 01:19 PM
The patriots re-invented the wheel.


This is not a new science and they struggled a bit before righting the ship. The pats are using the old Bobby Beathard formula of avoiding high draft picks and gathering a bunch of FOOTBALL PLAYERS. Beathard gathered the players and Gibbs maximized their talents because they had the Redskin attitude.

This is not a new science...they are just the first to do it in the salary cap era. Belichek is old school and when he took over the patriots they were an absolute wreck. He took a little Parcells, a little Joe Gibbs and a little bit of Bill Walsh and combined that into what the Pats are today. They run and play action like the old Skins, They are dominant on Defense with special emphasis on Linebackers like Parcell's Giants and they can short pass you to death with those spread sets and quick underneath passes alla Bill Walsh and the 49ers.

They draft smart football players who are can adapt to change and are willing to do whatever it takes to win. The patriots are a culmination of the 80's and 90's. They are doing a great job and the Skins can do the same thing but some lean years are ahead. I am sure belichek learned a lot from losing to the Skins during the 80's. He saw the machine like efficiency of the Skins and the 49ers and he incorporated that into his Pats.

Excellent points Jim. All of these are true.

However I don't think we have to do a total 180 to mirror the Pats. We don't need to start over and dump the whol roster as some in this thread have suggested. We just need two years of not trading away our draft picks to build the depth to help support the starters we have in place. I still think Our window for winning is 2006 & 2007 then age of key contributors and salary cap restriction made neccesitate retooling.

We do not have to blow up the team to prepare for the future. Just alter our spending habits. Key FA to be signed are probably at C and CB (if Smoot leaves), LT (If Samuels is released). We don't need a big name WR or TE we can find this in the draft. We don't need a big name DE, our defense is good and a quality DE can be found in the draft.

Those are my thoughts anyways.