The Coles Trade Scenario Thread (Including Moss Developments) [Keep it in here!]

[natgbz]

Coles for Jon Abraham of the Jets.
Just what I heard. No link yet.
Anyone listening?

[Jimreaper007]

Just what I heard. No link yet.
Anyone listening?


Now that would be interesting...

I would add more....Coles and Smoot for Abraham and a 2nd rounder

[natgbz]

I'll mark it down to hearsay and speculation at this point, but this is quite interesting.

[smoak]

I really wish work wouldn't filter online radio stations. ARGH!

I really have no intrest in Abraham b/c he sat out playoff games.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

I did wonder if Coles would wind up going back to the Jets....

Interesting, though. I'd prefer Shaun Ellis, but he's got a new contract, so I don't think he's tradeable. Abraham... hmmm... hmmm indeed.....

[natgbz]

It's intriguing. Much in the same vain that Champ for Portis a year ago was.

[CarMike]

It would be interesting to read all of the Jets fans who bashed Coles for leaving, to spin this around and think highly of Coles. I can hear it now, "I've remained loyal to Coles. I never hated him. Just the team he went to.....". :D

You know it would happen too.

[Jimreaper007]

It would be interesting to read all of the Jets fans who bashed Coles for leaving, to spin this around and think highly of Coles. I can hear it now, "I've remained loyal to Coles. I never hated him. Just the team he went to.....". :D

You know it would happen too.


Oh yeah....their would be some major tap dancing going on in Jet Nation.

[natgbz]

Here's a nugget:

http://www.nj.com/jets/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/110905021462680.xml

just makes note that the skins and jets are talking about trading picks for coles.

[flave1969]

Does the franchise tag get in the way of such a deal. Or would the Jets rescind the tag on Abraham.

[Vonslydog]

It would be interesting to read all of the Jets fans who bashed Coles for leaving, to spin this around and think highly of Coles. I can hear it now, "I've remained loyal to Coles. I never hated him. Just the team he went to.....". :D

You know it would happen too.
Just like it was interesting the past couple of days to read a few of the members comments here, who were were talking about how great Coles was last week, and now are saying that him leaving is a "blessing in disguise"

[smoak]

Maybe some folks here should think twice before burning their Champ Bailey jersey.

[smoak]

Just like it was interesting the past couple of days to read a few of the members comments here, who were were talking about how great Coles was last week, and now are saying that him leaving is a "blessing in disguise"

After I calmed down, I started to feel that way. Coles is a great WR and I don't see us replacing his production, but I think we can "spread the wealth" and not rely on a guy who has a chronic injury and is disenchanted with the organization/coach.

[Jimreaper007]

Coles is a very good player but he can be replaced.

[GolfFreak]

After I calmed down, I started to feel that way. Coles is a great WR and I don't see us replacing his production, but I think we can "spread the wealth" and not rely on a guy who has a chronic injury and is disenchanted with the organization/coach.

Good post - I felt the same way.

[natgbz]

Coles is a very good player but he can be replaced.

Yep. Just like Champ.

[nyjunc]

That's insane, we would NEVER in a million years trade John Abraham for Coles. For Randy Moss I think we'd give up Abe but no way we do it for Coles.

[nyjunc]

Now that would be interesting...

I would add more....Coles and Smoot for Abraham and a 2nd rounder

How about Coles, Smoot and a #2 pick for Abe, that's more realistic.

[Jimreaper007]

That's insane, we would NEVER in a million years trade John Abraham for Coles. For Randy Moss I think we'd give up Abe but no way we do it for Coles.


Ya might if you're going to have trouble signing him

[Jimreaper007]

How about Coles, Smoot and a #2 pick for Abe, that's more realistic.


Homer's disease is running rampant...


So you are saying that Abraham is worth Smoot, Coles and a 2nd round pick?


Please step away from the crack

[nyjunc]

It would be interesting to read all of the Jets fans who bashed Coles for leaving, to spin this around and think highly of Coles. I can hear it now, "I've remained loyal to Coles. I never hated him. Just the team he went to.....". :D

You know it would happen too.

I'm still annoyed at him but I'd take him back if he could help the team. In a perfect world I'd like all the players on all of my teams to be good guys and just care about winning but that's not realistic. Everything can be forgiven if he just comes groveling back realizing he made a huge mistake.

Does the franchise tag get in the way of such a deal. Or would the Jets rescind the tag on Abraham.

yes, if a deal could be worked out then the franchise tag is rescinded but there is NO chance of Coles for Abe.

[nyjunc]

Homer's disease is running rampant...


So you are saying that Abraham is worth Smoot, Coles and a 2nd round pick?


Please step away from the crack

That deal is alot mroe fair than Coles for Abraham. We'd give up one of the best pass rushers in the game for a very good WR? it makes no sense.

Ya might if you're going to have trouble signing him

We franchised him so he'll be here this year while we work on a long term deal, if we can't get one worked out we'll franchise him again next year. There isn't any need to get rid of him unless a great deal(Moss) came around.

[natgbz]

That's insane, we would NEVER in a million years trade John Abraham for Coles. For Randy Moss I think we'd give up Abe but no way we do it for Coles.

You got one solid high priced DE. The passing game ain't quite there. Upper echelon talent for upper echelon talent.

But Coles, Smoot, AND a second rounder for Abraham? We Redskins fans occasionally dream in that same vein.

[nyjunc]

You got one solid high priced DE. The passing game ain't quite there. Upper echelon talent for upper echelon talent.

But Coles, Smoot, AND a second rounder for Abraham? We Redskins fans occasionally dream in that same vein.

I wasn't serious about the Coles, Smoot and 2nd rounder- just making a point. Abe is a premiere pass rusher which is alot more valuable than a good WR. A Coles for Abe swap would be extremely 1 sided in your favor.

[Jimreaper007]

That deal is alot mroe fair than Coles for Abraham. We'd give up one of the best pass rushers in the game for a very good WR? it makes no sense.



We franchised him so he'll be here this year while we work on a long term deal, if we can't get one worked out we'll franchise him again next year. There isn't any need to get rid of him unless a great deal(Moss) came around.

Just becuase you franchise someone does not mean they will be happy and play all out for you. Abraham may sit out all of training camp like Walter Jones and Pace did every year until they were signed to a contract.

Maybe Herm does not want to put up with the madness..

[nyjunc]

Just becuase you franchise someone does not mean they will be happy and play all out for you. Abraham may sit out all of training camp like Walter Jones and Pace did every year until they were signed to a contract.

Maybe Herm does not want to put up with the madness..

I don't believe that is the case, he was asked that during the season and he siad he had no problem being franchised if that's what the Jets decided to do so I don't think it will be a problem like it is for some other players.

[smoak]

How about Coles, Smoot and a #2 pick for Abe, that's more realistic.

As I have zero interest in Abraham as a free agent or in a straight up deal for Coles, I think I am the wrong person to answer that question.

[PA Skins Girl]

[QUOTE=nyjunc]We franchised him so he'll be here this year while we work on a long term deal, if we can't get one worked out we'll franchise him again next year. [QUOTE]
I doubt you would want to franchise him every year and pay what, $7 million a year or so?

Sometimes franchising is just a temporary measure until they can work something else out (like a trade).

I dont know that it is such a bad deal for either team. We give up a very good receiver with a bad toe; you give up an excellent DE with a bad knee who wouldnt play in the playoffs. Isn't there bad blood between Abe and the fans for that? I'm not being smart, I'm just wondering.

[nyjunc]

[QUOTE=nyjunc]We franchised him so he'll be here this year while we work on a long term deal, if we can't get one worked out we'll franchise him again next year. [QUOTE]
I doubt you would want to franchise him every year and pay what, $7 million a year or so?

Sometimes franchising is just a temporary measure until they can work something else out (like a trade).

I dont know that it is such a bad deal for either team. We give up a very good receiver with a bad toe; you give up an excellent DE with a bad knee who wouldnt play in the playoffs. Isn't there bad blood between Abe and the fans for that? I'm not being smart, I'm just wondering.

It's a great deal for you guys, it's a steal for the skins. Abe doesn't have a bad knee, he was hurt late in the year but it is not a chronic problem.

[PA Skins Girl]

It's a great deal for you guys, it's a steal for the skins. Abe doesn't have a bad knee, he was hurt late in the year but it is not a chronic problem.
What about the year before? Wasnt he injured then also? Again, just trying to get the skinny on him from the Jets perspective.

[nyjunc]

What about the year before? Wasnt he injured then also? Again, just trying to get the skinny on him from the Jets perspective.

He has had many problems and has msised games every year BUT he is still a premiere pass rusher when healthy and one of these year's he'll remain healthy and you don't just give up on guys like that for nothing.

[natgbz]

A little more fodder:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/spor...23834-8489r.htm

"The source said the Jets are the focus of at least some trade talks. A deal for Jets defensive end John Abraham, who has been given the franchise tag, apparently was broached. The sides also could complete a deal involving draft picks. Talks should heat up at the NFL Scouting Combine this week. "

[PA Skins Girl]

He has had many problems and has msised games every year BUT he is still a premiere pass rusher when healthy and one of these year's he'll remain healthy and you don't just give up on guys like that for nothing.
Okay, cool. I'm sure the news report was just speculation as far as Abe goes. It does appear that there may be a trade between the Skins and the Jets in the works though. Who would you say would be a comparable trade for Coles. We a need WR, DE, G, C and TE. Any ideas?

[nyjunc]

A little more fodder:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/spor...23834-8489r.htm

"The source said the Jets are the focus of at least some trade talks. A deal for Jets defensive end John Abraham, who has been given the franchise tag, apparently was broached. The sides also could complete a deal involving draft picks. Talks should heat up at the NFL Scouting Combine this week. "

That just says the 'Skins asked about Abe which is smart to do but there is a better chance that Joe Gibbs coaches the Jets next year than Abe going to Washington straight up for Coles.

[nyjunc]

Okay, cool. I'm sure the news report was just speculation as far as Abe goes. It does appear that there may be a trade between the Skins and the Jets in the works though. Who would you say would be a comparable trade for Coles. We a need WR, DE, G, C and TE. Any ideas?

It's rare to see player for player deals, if we traded w/ you I would expect to give up a 3rd rd pick maybe a 2 but since ou will probably be releasing him I would hope we wait for that rather than giving up picks.

[joethefan]

I don't like this trade...at all...I think we can do better. Why should we go after someone with injursy issues.....If this goes through I'd be pissed.!!! :banghead:

[nyjunc]

I don't like this trade...at all...I think we can do better. Why should we go after someone with injursy issues.....If this goes through I'd be pissed.!!! :banghead:

Better? Who could you possibly get better than Abraham? specially for damaged goods that you will probably release anyway.

[Redskinmayhem]

Better? Who could you possibly get better than Abraham? specially for damaged goods that you will probably release anyway.


Then I guess it's damaged goods for damaged goods. Let's be realistic. A straight up trade is fair for both teams.

[nyjunc]

Then I guess it's damaged goods for damaged goods. Let's be realistic. A straight up trade is fair for both teams.

It's absolutely not fair for both teams, Cols has a chronic toe condition while Abe gets different injuries but doesn't have anything chronic. One is a 4 time pro bowler while the other has made it once(after injuries to the real players who made it). Abe is in the top 2 or 3 at his position while Coles is very good he's not a premiere WR, it would be a very 1 sided trade.

[PA Skins Girl]

Then I guess it's damaged goods for damaged goods. Let's be realistic. A straight up trade is fair for both teams.
It seems we each have higher regards for our own player than we do of the other.

Abraham's reputation was seriously damaged when he refused to play in the playoffs. Otherwise, I would agree with NYJunc that the Skins would be getting the better deal.

[smoak]

Better? Who could you possibly get better than Abraham? specially for damaged goods that you will probably release anyway.

Not to be rude, but I'd rather have a guy who doesn't sit out playoff games because he is concerned about his chance to be a FA. (That was from an interview with Abraham during the playoffs.) Not only that, but the cap hit for JA ia not one I'd personally be willing to take considering the injury concerns.

[whitskins]

If we give Coles for Abraham the Jets are getting hosed. No reason for them to do that. I'm sure we mentioned Abraham but I doubt it will happen.

[nyjunc]

It seems we each have higher regards for our own player than we do of the other.

Abraham's reputation was seriously damaged when he refused to play in the playoffs. Otherwise, I would agree with NYJunc that the Skins would be getting the better deal.

We also know what Coles is worth seeing as he played here longer than where he is now.

Not to be rude, but I'd rather have a guy who doesn't sit out playoff games because he is concerned about his chance to be a FA. (That was from an interview with Abraham during the playoffs.) Not only that, but the cap hit for JA ia not one I'd personally be willing to take considering the injury concerns.

I got on him for that too but he never specifically mentioned the contract when talking about sitting out. By the way, Coles healthy in the '02 playoffs didn't show up and he killed us in the Raider game.

[Redskinmayhem]

It's absolutely not fair for both teams, Cols has a chronic toe condition while Abe gets different injuries but doesn't have anything chronic. One is a 4 time pro bowler while the other has made it once(after injuries to the real players who made it). Abe is in the top 2 or 3 at his position while Coles is very good he's not a premiere WR, it would be a very 1 sided trade.

Goood points but I still disagree. There are far more top notch recievers than there are DE's which initially may sound like a point in your favor but I use it to illustrate why JA has been to more PB's than LC. Your point about LC having one chronic injury compared to JA who's hurt all over is a point on my side. I prefer that as opposed to someone who may be healed from one injury only to have another. Plus, LC doesn't miss games. JA does. You guys have a surpluss of D lineman that can rush the passer. We have a deep recieving corps. It's only logical that we strike a straight up deal. JA, is a very good DE but adding coles to your current WR's-Moss and McCareins gives you a VERY formidable trio. Obviously it's not up to us but think about it. What helps you guys out more. A few more TD's per game, or a few more sacks????

[Skins57]

Coles for JA would be heavily sided towards us, and it would have to involve us giving up picks and that is something I do not want to do. We need to start using our draft picks to build this team, maybe we could throw Gardner in with coles :D

[smoak]

I couldn't find the quote, but I know I saw him basically say he wasn't playing b/c he didn't want to risk his opportunity at being a FA. It really doesn't matter though b/c it is only MO to pass on him.

http://www.yesnetwork.com/announcers/article.asp?article_id=337

Apparently, Dr. Pellman and team trainer Dave Price cleared Abraham to practice. I’m sure it was up to Abraham to determine how far he could push himself. After some practice work and the game-day workout, Abraham felt he could not play. In light of a wet and slippery field, his injury could only be made worse. During the week, Abraham offered more than he had to, or should have. Due to his impending free-agent status, Abraham said he didn’t want to jeopardize a serious injury. That statement opened the proverbial “can of worms.”

To be sure, Dr. Pellman and his staff would not let a player risk permanent injury, regardless of his contract status. That’s why the doctors are there. The way it works is that if a doctor says a player can go, then he will play. I have heard this explanation by a team doctor: “He can play, but I don’t know how long he will last.” A hundred times out of a hundred, the coach would say, “Let’s wait another week.”

[Jimreaper007]

Coles for JA would be heavily sided towards us, and it would have to involve us giving up picks and that is something I do not want to do. We need to start using our draft picks to build this team, maybe we could throw Gardner in with coles :D

Throw in some hand towels and an autographed Kwame Brown T-shirt. That should seal the deal there...

Speculation is the word of the day and I am growing tired of all of us homers (myself included) placing make believe values on these guys.

[Redskinfan28]

Coles for Abraham is a horrible trade for the Jets. It would have to include some picks from the Skins, which scares me since I don't think we have a 2nd or a 3rd this year (I'm not sure about the 3rd - didn't we give that up for Brunell?).

The Jets would not trade Abraham for Coles without picks.

[chad101]

"What could the Redskins hope to get for Coles? A second-round pick, maybe (to replace the one they traded for Chris Cooley last year). Laveranues is, let's not forget, somewhat damaged goods. Whatever the Redskins come away with, though, it won't be as much as they gave up for him " their No. 1 in '03, the 13th selection overall.
That raid on the Jets' roster two years ago has never looked more ill-considered. Coles is angling to leave, Randy Thomas has been less than extraordinary, Chad Morton is hurt, John Hall is hurt. A lot of money invested in those guys. The Jets, meanwhile, were back in the playoffs last season " and came within a missed field goal of making it to the AFC title game. What Coach Joe wouldn't give for a year like that. "
http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20050222-1...23835-1081r.htm

John Abraham for Coles would SHOCK ME.

[Redskinmayhem]

Coles for JA would be heavily sided towards us, and it would have to involve us giving up picks and that is something I do not want to do. We need to start using our draft picks to build this team, maybe we could throw Gardner in with coles

Ok, LC and ROD for JA and Pennington...that's it , that's my final offer. I've talked it over with the Danny and That's as far as we'll go. :jetsuk: :Peace:

[chad101]

I don't like this trade...at all...I think we can do better. Why should we go after someone with injursy issues.....If this goes through I'd be pissed.!!! :banghead:


You think you can do better than a trade of Coles for Abraham????

Trust me sport, If that trade is even being considered the Jets are drunk.

[chad101]

Then I guess it's damaged goods for damaged goods. Let's be realistic. A straight up trade is fair for both teams.


It is MUCH easier to obtain a wideout of Coles caliber than a game changing defensive end such as Abraham.....if you get a 2nd rounder for Coles, be happy.

[Jimreaper007]

I do not want abraham....

Jets can keep a guy who refuses to play in the playoffs.....PASS

[dj_stouty]

I got on him for that too but he never specifically mentioned the contract when talking about sitting out.

No...but we all know why he did it...

That never sat well with me either.

[nyjunc]

Goood points but I still disagree. There are far more top notch recievers than there are DE's which initially may sound like a point in your favor but I use it to illustrate why JA has been to more PB's than LC. Your point about LC having one chronic injury compared to JA who's hurt all over is a point on my side. I prefer that as opposed to someone who may be healed from one injury only to have another. Plus, LC doesn't miss games. JA does. You guys have a surpluss of D lineman that can rush the passer. We have a deep recieving corps. It's only logical that we strike a straight up deal. JA, is a very good DE but adding coles to your current WR's-Moss and McCareins gives you a VERY formidable trio. Obviously it's not up to us but think about it. What helps you guys out more. A few more TD's per game, or a few more sacks????

Abe is an elite pass rusher which most teams do not have, Coles is a very good WR which most teams have. It's unfair straight up.

I couldn't find the quote, but I know I saw him basically say he wasn't playing b/c he didn't want to risk his opportunity at being a FA. It really doesn't matter though b/c it is only MO to pass on him.

He never specifically mentioned his contract, he didn't play b/c his game is alla bout speed and his speed was reduced so he didn't want to play if he couldn't do the things he normally does to help the team.

Ok, LC and ROD for JA and Pennington...that's it , that's my final offer. I've talked it over with the Danny and That's as far as we'll go.

:lol1: Maybe we can throw in Shaun Ellis and Kevin Mawae to make it more fair :lol1:

I do not want abraham....

Jets can keep a guy who refuses to play in the playoffs.....PASS


Which is worse, a guy hurt and not able to play or a guy healthy who doesn't show up? Coles had a good game in '01 against oak in the playoffs but was non-existent against Indy in '02(we didn't need him anyway as we won 41-0) and was a complete no show against Oak in the div rd in '02. he dropped passes, committed penalties and show very little effort.

[chad101]

I do not want abraham....

Jets can keep a guy who refuses to play in the playoffs.....PASS

He had the same injury as Seymour of NE and missed the same amount of games.

[nyjunc]

No...but we all know why he did it...

That never sat well with me either.

Believe me I was very annoyed w/ him but some info came out after the season that stated it was legit so I was swayed to th other side. He is a frustrating player though as he gets hurt alot but you can't give those guys up easily b/c one day he may stay healthy and when he does he'll get close to 20 sacks.

[Jimreaper007]

He had the same injury as Seymour of NE and missed the same amount of games.


Yeah and no one questions Seymour because of the type of guy he is (dedicated). Abraham has too many question marks about his health and his commitment to his teammates.

[whitskins]

The Skins need to stay away from players that we're going to have to pay top 5 money to, especially on defense.

Something more realistic would be hoping to get a 2nd rounder for LC, then we can draft a cheap player who can start and produce, not a guy who has missed 13 games the last two years and will be one of the highest paid players at his position.

[Redskinmayhem]

The more and more I think about it, we'll never get what's "FAIR" for both sides here. Coles simply isn't a Moss or Harrison type WR and Abe's cap hit would be too much for the skins to handle. I'm more confused than ever! :banghead:

[nyjunc]

Yeah and no one questions Seymour because of the type of guy he is (dedicated). Abraham has too many question marks about his health and his commitment to his teammates.

Abe has played through alot of injuries as well, the first time he was really questioned by anyone was this past injury but before that he had sufferd many injuries but kept playing including having knee surgery a couple of weeks before the '02 season began which was supposed to keep him out at least the first few games but he was back for the opener.

[Redskinmayhem]

The Skins need to stay away from players that we're going to have to pay top 5 money to, especially on defense.

Something more realistic would be hoping to get a 2nd rounder for LC, then we can draft a cheap player who can start and produce, not a guy who has missed 13 games the last two years and will be one of the highest paid players at his position.

Maybe the Jet's 2nd rounder this year and their 1st rounder next or in 07..... :lol1: ok I'm officially dilerious.

[PennSkinsFan]

At this point, I strongly support trading Coles for a draft selection. lets add to the Draft and build with some younger guys. I know this is the exact opposite of what is likely to occur, given Gibbs' slant toward veterans with expereince, but, I would honestly prefer to make a swap with someone like TB for a first rounder.

[PA Skins Girl]

Yeah and no one questions Seymour because of the type of guy he is (dedicated). Abraham has too many question marks about his health and his commitment to his teammates.I dont know. I think he made a comment about not wanting to reinjure himself and it got blown out that he wanted to be healthy for free agency. It seems that Jets fans have forgiven him.

[nyjunc]

I dont know. I think he made a comment about not wanting to reinjure himself and it got blown out that he wanted to be healthy for free agency. It seems that Jets fans have forgiven him.

I have but I would say most Jet fans haven't but they don't want to get rid of him just for the ake of getting rid of him. In a deal for Moss they'd be ok but Terry Bradway would be burned at the stakes if he dealt Abe for Coles.

[Jimreaper007]

I dont know. I think he made a comment about not wanting to reinjure himself and it got blown out that he wanted to be healthy for free agency. It seems that Jets fans have forgiven him.


He did make that comment and that threw a lot of vets for a loop. The ESPN guys nuked him for it saying that is his right, but all of them said they would have played.

The fact that TO played with a broken leg does not make Abraham's case for not playing look any better.

[CNYSkinFan]

Look if we trade Coles for any player we should do it to fill a whole on the offensive side of the ball. Any upgrade on defense right now is a luxury that we can not afford.

With Coles gone we have a major whole at WR, And still wholes at C and TE.

I would likem to see us get a high second rounder coupled with a second rounder for Gardner. 2 2nd round picks and a #9 pick will help us fill alot of these wholes with bargains from the draft.

[CNYSkinFan]

Now that would be interesting...

I would add more....Coles and Smoot for Abraham and a 2nd rounder

We can not trade Smoot. he is an unrestricted FA and we are not putting the franchise tag on him. Smoot is gone.

[Jimreaper007]

We can not trade Smoot. he is an unrestricted FA and we are not putting the franchise tag on him. Smoot is gone.

So a sign and trade would not be possible?

[Skins57]

I am with PSF on this. We need to be happy with picks and let Joe and compnay build this offense through the draft. That being said Dan is still the owner and I would not be surprised to see another player plus picks for someone happen, I hope not but it is possible

[Jimreaper007]

I am with PSF on this. We need to be happy with picks and let Joe and compnay build this offense through the draft. That being said Dan is still the owner and I would not be surprised to see another player plus picks for someone happen, I hope not but it is possible


If that is true...expect a lean year coming up..

[akhhorus]

This will not happen. The Jets do not need a WR and they wont deal hm straight up for Coles.

[akhhorus]

So a sign and trade would not be possible?

This isnt the NBA; you cant sign & trade people.

[smoak]

"What could the Redskins hope to get for Coles? A second-round pick, maybe (to replace the one they traded for Chris Cooley last year). Laveranues is, let's not forget, somewhat damaged goods. Whatever the Redskins come away with, though, it won't be as much as they gave up for him " their No. 1 in '03, the 13th selection overall.

Honestly, if you look back, none of the players taken around that 13th pick excite me with the exception of Polamalu who I really liked back then. I liked the Coles deal then and I like it now. You couldn't have predicted his toe injury.

13 New England Ty Warren DE Texas A&M
14 Chicago Michael Haynes DE Penn State
15 Philadelphia Jerome McDougle DE Miami
16 Pittsburgh Troy Polamalu SS Southern California
17 Arizona Bryant Johnson WR Penn State
18 Arizona Calvin Pace DE Wake Forest
19 Baltimore Kyle Boller QB California
20 Denver George Foster T Georgia

[PA Skins Girl]

This isnt the NBA; you cant sign & trade people.
Why not?

[smoak]

Look if we trade Coles for any player we should do it to fill a whole on the offensive side of the ball. Any upgrade on defense right now is a luxury that we can not afford.

With Coles gone we have a major whole at WR, And still wholes at C and TE.

I would likem to see us get a high second rounder coupled with a second rounder for Gardner. 2 2nd round picks and a #9 pick will help us fill alot of these wholes with bargains from the draft.

Think more 3rd or 4th for Gardner and the draft should be for depth and special teams (IMO). Don't count on a rookie to solve our woes.

[CNYSkinFan]

So a sign and trade would not be possible?

Nope. It would not be in either's the Redskins best interest or Smoots' SMoot thinks he cna play the marked for more then the Redskins offer. He will wait until 3-2 and see what is out there. The Jets would just wait until 3-2 to bid on him as well.

The only way it could happen is if the Redskins franchised him or transitioned him and the redskins don't have the cap space to do this. Smoot would immediately sign the offer sheet and take 9 million guaranteed money and then seek a new contract the next year, and Smoot is not worth it.

[akhhorus]

Why not?

Because youre responsible for the Signing Bonus you signed the player to. that you just traded. Now you can sign a player to a contract without a signing bonus(franchise players get that), but some player will sign it, expecting to get traded and then the team doesnt deal them. And the player is screwed.

[PA Skins Girl]

Because youre responsible for the Signing Bonus you signed the player to. that you just traded. Now you can sign a player to a contract without a signing bonus(franchise players get that), but some player will sign it, expecting to get traded and then the team doesnt deal them. And the player is screwed.
Right. But it's not that it Cant be done. It's just that the deal needs to be worked out ahead of time.

How did we deal Champ last year? I dont think we ever actually put the franchise tag on him, did we? I think we just threatened to.

[schmackledackle]

Look, at this point I'm just happy that we're trying to get something back for Lav. When I first read in the Post that we were cutting Coles with no compensation I was dismayed.

Now, let's look at Abaraham. If we can get him for Coles, I'm all for it. He would bring a element to our defense that is sorely needed. A pass rusher who can single-handedly ruin drives late in the game is a highly valuable commodity.

That being said, the Jets probably won't deal him for Coles straight up. Are there any other players they would be willing to part with that we would take? Perhaps Kevin Mawae? We need a C and he's top notch....

Moving on....
The prospctive owner of the Vikings is taking Randy Moss off the trading block. This means that Coles value is going higher because he is arguably the best receiver available this year.

Should we talk to the Ravens about Terrell Suggs or maybe even Todd Heap?
How about SD for one of their two first rounders?

This is all pure speculation, I know that some of the options mentioned above could be a bit ambitious, but again, Coles is one of the top receivers available.

[CNYSkinFan]

Why not?

IN the NFl there are no guaranteed contracts the only guaranteed money is the signing bonus. (PA I know you know some of this but some others might not) So any player signing a contract will seek a hefty signing bonus. That bonus, for salary cap purposes, is spread out over the life of a contract.

Wehn A player is released before June 1 or traded to another team, the remaining signing bonus that is allocated for the final years are immediately accelerated and the players current team (or the team the player is being traded from) takes a large cap hit that year.

So if smoot was signed to a 4 year contract for 10 million and then immediately traded it would be an automatic 10 million hit for the Redskins.

IN the NBA you see alot of these sign and trade deals because contracts are guaranteed meaning if a player is cut they still get paid and veterans are allowed to resign with their current team even if it goes over the cap. Thus it is called a soft cap.

[PennSkinsFan]

Think more 3rd or 4th for Gardner and the draft should be for depth and special teams (IMO). Don't count on a rookie to solve our woes.

I disagree. Rookies can have an impact. The #9 pick will have an impact, and if we can pick up a late first rounder for Coles, we can nab a pass rushing DE that can have an immediate impact. Remember 2004, one fo the biggest impacts came from our third rounder, Chris Cooley.

[akhhorus]

Right. But it's not that it Cant be done. It's just that the deal needs to be worked out ahead of time.

How did we deal Champ last year? I dont think we ever actually put the franchise tag on him, did we? I think we just threatened to.

No, we did Franchise him; thats the only way we traded him to Denver. He was an unrestricted FA until we tagged him. Yes, he never really made it to the open market, but the skins HAD to tag him. Also, if you're a team looking for Smoot: don't talk to the Skins about a trade for him where they have to sign him first, just call his bloody agent and sign him.

[CNYSkinFan]

Right. But it's not that it Cant be done. It's just that the deal needs to be worked out ahead of time.

How did we deal Champ last year? I dont think we ever actually put the franchise tag on him, did we? I think we just threatened to.

We did franchise Champ he just never signed the offer sheet. Everyone knew that the franchise tag was just a way to keep Champ off the market and get some compensation for him unless a miracle could happen and Champ signed a contract with the skins. Also the offer for CBs was much lower around 5 million as compared to 9 million this year. There was no incentive for Champ to sign the offer sheet.

[smoak]

I disagree. Rookies can have an impact. The #9 pick will have an impact, and if we can pick up a late first rounder for Coles, we can nab a pass rushing DE that can have an immediate impact. Remember 2004, one fo the biggest impacts came from our third rounder, Chris Cooley.

I think I stated it wrong, but what I meant was I wouldn't put all my eggs in the rookie basket. Cooley beat out a lot of competition for a starting role, but many of us groaned and whined at the fact we traded a 2005 2nd round pick to get him. Taylor didn't start the season at FS. Basically I just don't want to say "insert rookie name" is the solution because more often than not they aren't.

However, should a rooie come in and earn the spot, then I would rely on them 100%.

[akhhorus]

And the Wash Times article today said that this deal was discussed, but they had moved on to discussing COles for picks .That is more realistic.

[PA Skins Girl]

Thanks akh and CYN.

I understand about signing bonuses and guaranteed money. I guess what I was thinking was, signing a player to a one-year, min vet salary deal, no signing bonus, with a trade already worked out with another team. The trade takes place and the player works out a long term deal with the new team.

[CNYSkinFan]

I disagree. Rookies can have an impact. The #9 pick will have an impact, and if we can pick up a late first rounder for Coles, we can nab a pass rushing DE that can have an immediate impact. Remember 2004, one fo the biggest impacts came from our third rounder, Chris Cooley.

I agree, look at Jansen his rookie year and he was a secound round draft pick right? Who is to say a second round Center (Bass out of Michigan) could also not do as well, also Mike Williams at #9 or possibly trading down getting HEath at TE and another Wr at another pick.

Draft picks are nice and cheap as well. Which we need because even best case scenarios with Coles shows we will take a 5 million dollar dead cap hit this year.

[Dexter72]

I think I stated it wrong, but what I meant was I wouldn't put all my eggs in the rookie basket. Cooley beat out a lot of competition for a starting role, but many of us groaned and whined at the fact we traded a 2005 2nd round pick to get him. Taylor didn't start the season at FS. Basically I just don't want to say "insert rookie name" is the solution because more often than not they aren't.

Taylor didn't start but he had a big impact all season long, and by the end of the season was one of their better defensive starters...Dunta Robinson, Vilma, DJ Williams, Michael Clayton, Roy Williams, Kevin Jones, Stephen Jackson, Big Ben, Lee Evans, Robert Gallery, Tommie Harris...That's 12 first rounders -- including 9 of the 15 (and 1 of those 15 didn't play at all last year - KWII) -- who not only played, but by the end of the season were some of the better players, and in some cases the best, on their respective unit.

[Redskinmayhem]

It's hard for a rook to come in and start esp. on a Gibbs team. I wouldn't put it past Gibbs to start a rookie WR in a 3 wr set though. Early round rooks(1-3), if they pan out, should come in early in the season and win the starting job by mid season.

[chrisbcbu]

I would take a trade for some draft picks!! Gimme some picks!! We need more!!!

[Redskinmayhem]

I'm starting to lean more and more towards picks. There's some quality depth in this years draft. no superstars really but that's what we're trying to get away from anyway.

[joethefan]

And the Wash Times article today said that this deal was discussed, but they had moved on to discussing COles for picks .That is more realistic.
Now, I like that other than getting someone who's always hurt...the difference is that At least Coles will play hurt.!!

[akhhorus]

Thanks akh and CYN.

I understand about signing bonuses and guaranteed money. I guess what I was thinking was, signing a player to a one-year, min vet salary deal, no signing bonus, with a trade already worked out with another team. The trade takes place and the player works out a long term deal with the new team.

He could in theory: but why would they?

[smoak]

In the NBA I think the incentive and hence why you see it so often is that the team re-signing a player is allowed to offer him more money.

[Redskinmayhem]

He could in theory: but why would they?

yeah, this isn't the 1940's where players play for the love of the game. besides, he has no real reason to show loyalty to a team.

[akhhorus]

In the NBA I think the incentive and hence why you see it so often is that the team re-signing a player is allowed to offer him more money.

exactly. If an old team could offer a UFA more money, then you would see sign and trades; but they can't. Good Pull Smoak.

[akhhorus]

yeah, this isn't the 1940's where players play for the love of the game. besides, he has no real reason to show loyalty to a team.

Well there are some players like that in the nFL, but they are few and far between.

[Redskinmayhem]

Well there are some players like that in the nFL, but they are few and far between.

Agreed, Thrash seems to be one of them.

On a side note, Akh, you've turned me into such a cynic(sp?)!

[akhhorus]

Agreed, Thrash seems to be one of them.

On a side note, Akh, you've turned me into such a cynic(sp?)!

I dunno about Thrash: but Jansen taking a far lower contract to stay with the Skins tells me a lot about him.

[ShaggySkins]

An Abraham for Coles deal would be very good for both teams. Abraham is a premiere pass rusher and would save us from having to go after one in the draft. This will let us grab a WR or CB at pick #9 while still addressing one of our other main concerns in the DL.

[dj_stouty]

I would take a trade for some draft picks!! Gimme some picks!! We need more!!!

I agree. If anything else...it makes draft day that much more enjoyable for Skins fans.

[PA Skins Girl]

He could in theory: but why would they?
I guess you're right. The player wouldnt agree to it. Not unless there was a threat of him being franchised.

[akhhorus]

An Abraham for Coles deal would be very good for both teams. Abraham is a premiere pass rusher and would save us from having to go after one in the draft. This will let us grab a WR or CB at pick #9 while still addressing one of our other main concerns in the DL.

One minor problem: That would mean the Jets would have Santana Moss, McCariens and Coles. And no Abraham. Coles for S. Moss is more likely.

[CarMike]

I agree. If anything else...it makes draft day that much more enjoyable for Skins fans.

its been a long time since i've enjoyed draft day. Hopefully we'll be able to get some extra picks somehow.....

[Redskinmayhem]

One minor problem: That would mean the Jets would have Santana Moss, McCariens and Coles. And no Abraham. Coles for S. Moss is more likely.

Jets fans would all instantly spontaneously combust if that trade was even *entertained*.

[akhhorus]

Jets fans would all instantly spontaneously combust if that trade was even *entertained*.

Yeah, but Coles for anything else makes no sense unless they are planning another big move involving Moss or McCariens.

[nyjunc]

Yeah, but Coles for anything else makes no sense unless they are planning another big move involving Moss or McCariens.

I don't think we'd trade any players for Coles, it would be Coles for a 3rd rd pick or if you wanted a blockbuster w/ Abe then Abraham for Coles and your 1st rd pick. It makes no sense to give Wash any more b/c it's very likely they'll wind up releasing him plus Derrick Mason is out there and he thrived under Mike Heimerdinger in tennessee(he's our new OC) and would be a logical signing.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

I don't think we'd trade any players for Coles, it would be Coles for a 3rd rd pick or if you wanted a blockbuster w/ Abe then Abraham for Coles and your 1st rd pick. It makes no sense to give Wash any more b/c it's very likely they'll wind up releasing him plus Derrick Mason is out there and he thrived under Mike Heimerdinger in tennessee(he's our new OC) and would be a logical signing.
Abraham for Coles AND our first?????????? I wouldn't give our first for Abraham.... alone!

[Redskin006]

it may be thatm we are looking to trade coles for abraham, but i think there's another trade that we're looking to do because they were the one's willing to get rid of coles in the first place.

[nyjunc]

Abraham for Coles AND our first?????????? I wouldn't give our first for Abraham.... alone!

You gave up the #13 pick for Coles 2 years ago, you wouldn't give up a 1st rounder for Abraham????

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

You gave up the #13 pick for Coles 2 years ago, you wouldn't give up a 1st rounder for Abraham????
We have a great Defense. We don't need a DE like SS needed a big time WR.

[akhhorus]

I don't think we'd trade any players for Coles, it would be Coles for a 3rd rd pick or if you wanted a blockbuster w/ Abe then Abraham for Coles and your 1st rd pick. It makes no sense to give Wash any more b/c it's very likely they'll wind up releasing him plus Derrick Mason is out there and he thrived under Mike Heimerdinger in tennessee(he's our new OC) and would be a logical signing.

Coles will get more than a 3rd rounder, despite your assertion that he's "damaged goods". They will not deal COles and the #9 for Abraham and it is even more doubtful that the Jets will go after Mason; considering they still have Moss and McCariens. Unless they plan on moving one of them.

[nyjunc]

Coles will get more than a 3rd rounder, despite your assertion that he's "damaged goods". They will not deal COles and the #9 for Abraham and it is even more doubtful that the Jets will go after Mason; considering they still have Moss and McCariens. Unless they plan on moving one of them.

Moss is a FA after this season and we'll most likely lose him if we get a Mason, Coles or Randy Moss. The skins have little leverage to get anything mor than 3rd rounder b/ there are good WRs available and it's more than likely they'll win up releasing hi for nothing so you might as well take what you can get if a 3rd rounder is offered.

[akhhorus]

Moss is a FA after this season and we'll most likely lose him if we get a Mason, Coles or Randy Moss. The skins have little leverage to get anything mor than 3rd rounder b/ there are good WRs available and it's more than likely they'll win up releasing hi for nothing so you might as well take what you can get if a 3rd rounder is offered.

I disagree: there will be a team offering much more than a third.

You know what is hilarious about your posts nyjunc: How you extremely inflate the worth of Jets players(ie: "Dewayne Robertson is a Top Five DT in the NFL") and trash the value of ex-Jets players. I would be surprised if the Skins got less than a high 2nd rounder for Coles. Considering that there will be teams that dont want to get into a bidding war for him and see his price double.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

I disagree: there will be a team offering much more than a third.

You know what is hilarious about your posts nyjunc: How you extremely inflate the worth of Jets players(ie: "Dewayne Robertson is a Top Five DT in the NFL") and trash the value of ex-Jets players. I would be surprised if the Skins got less than a high 2nd rounder for Coles. Considering that there will be teams that dont want to get into a bidding war for him and see his price double.
I noticed that also, and let him know. The Jets are great, but the ex-Jets stink.

If we do trade Coles, we will get at least a 2nd.

[akhhorus]

I noticed that also, and let him know. The Jets are great, but the ex-Jets stink.

If we do trade Coles, we will get at least a 2nd.

The Ex-Jets thing, thats understandable. But calling Dewayne Robertson a "Top Five DT in the NFL" is hilarious.

[nyjunc]

I disagree: there will be a team offering much more than a third.

You know what is hilarious about your posts nyjunc: How you extremely inflate the worth of Jets players(ie: "Dewayne Robertson is a Top Five DT in the NFL") and trash the value of ex-Jets players. I would be surprised if the Skins got less than a high 2nd rounder for Coles. Considering that there will be teams that dont want to get into a bidding war for him and see his price double.

No I don't, I talk realistically about players. Robertson and Abraham are much more vaulable than Coles at this point. Big time DTs and pass rushers are more valuable than good WRs. It's not my fault you just look at stats to determine the worth of a DT, Robertson is w/o a doubt top 5 and he is on the verge of stardom. Coles is a good player but he's not great and the skins have no leverage, if it was a weak WR market then I think they could get a 2(the Jets sent a 2 for Justin McCareins last year but he was the best guy available after TO).

What is hilarious is how you guys talk about his injury as to reasons why he wasn't great then you want a 2nd or 1st rd pick for a guy who when healthy was never great just very good. WRs are alot easier to find and replcae than DTs or pass rushers so obviously Robertson and Abraham are much more vaulable than Coles.

[Sweepea436]

I'd like to see Abraham in our D scheme, but I don't want anybody on this team anymore that other teams don't want because the price tag is too high. I'm sure that won't be a popular sentiment, but I'm tired of overproced slackers.

[nyjunc]

I noticed that also, and let him know. The Jets are great, but the ex-Jets stink.

If we do trade Coles, we will get at least a 2nd.

I never said the ex-Jets stink, Randy Thomas is good, Coles is very good. I said we replcaed them well, we never fully replaced Cols but we've done ok w/o him and I think Pete Kendall is as good or better than Randy Thomas.

The Ex-Jets thing, thats understandable. But calling Dewayne Robertson a "Top Five DT in the NFL" is hilarious.

It's hilarious to folks who just use stats to gauge everything. Dewayne was the Most irreplaceable player on our D. We lost Abe and were ok, we lost Ellis and were ok but if we lost Robertson we would have been in big trouble.

[akhhorus]

No I don't, I talk realistically about players. Robertson and Abraham are much more vaulable than Coles at this point. Big time DTs and pass rushers are more valuable than good WRs. It's not my fault you just look at stats to determine the worth of a DT, Robertson is w/o a doubt top 5 and he is on the verge of stardom. Coles is a good player but he's not great and the skins have no leverage, if it was a weak WR market then I think they could get a 2(the Jets sent a 2 for Justin McCareins last year but he was the best guy available after TO).

What is hilarious is how you guys talk about his injury as to reasons why he wasn't great then you want a 2nd or 1st rd pick for a guy who when healthy was never great just very good. WRs are alot easier to find and replcae than DTs or pass rushers so obviously Robertson and Abraham are much more vaulable than Coles.

LOL. So a Wideout, in a bad offense for two years, with a toe injury: still gets 2000 yard recieving is worth LESS than a DT who has 4 career sacks and it generally regarded as above-average. Abraham is worth more than Coles, but Robertson is nowhere near his value. He is not a Top 5 DT, He is not on the verge of stardom. The Skins still have all the leverage: he's under contract to the skins. Coles has none. The Skins can just tell him to F-off and pout if he wants.

[redskin_rich]

I don't think we can afford any high priced FA's this season with what has happened over the last 48 hours. We have too many holes to fill and not enough cap space. I'm starting to doubt if we can even resign Pierce.
We are going to have to get draft picks to fill our needs cheaply. It may not be what everybody wants to hear but its the only way I see us filling holes at WR,C,LT?,CB,DE,MLB?.

[akhhorus]

It's hilarious to folks who just use stats to gauge everything. Dewayne was the Most irreplaceable player on our D. We lost Abe and were ok, we lost Ellis and were ok but if we lost Robertson we would have been in big trouble.

:lol1: You have to be Dewayne Robertson's agent, or related to him. He was nowhere near a star this past year.

[LATrueRedskin]

Coles for Abraham? I'll take that.

[nyjunc]

LOL. So a Wideout, in a bad offense for two years, with a toe injury: still gets 2000 yard recieving is worth LESS than a DT who has 4 career sacks and it generally regarded as above-average. Abraham is worth more than Coles, but Robertson is nowhere near his value. He is not a Top 5 DT, He is not on the verge of stardom. The Skins still have all the leverage: he's under contract to the skins. Coles has none. The Skins can just tell him to F-off and pout if he wants.

Absolutely, what did that offense do w/ those grat #s from Coles? Nothing, butt he Jet D was a big time D this year thanks to the alot of things but the biggest reason was the emergence of #63. Sacks don't tell the story, there's alot more to the game than getting sacks. I'd rather have a guy putting pressure on the QB constantly than getting sacks occassionally and not putting pressure on the other times he's in there. Dewayne Robertson is more valuable than John Abraham, I'd sooner part w/ Abe than Dewyane.

[akhhorus]

Dewayne Robertson is more valuable than John Abraham, I'd sooner part w/ Abe than Dewyane.

ROTFLMAO

You are his agent!

[nyjunc]

ROTFLMAO

You are his agent!

I can see you are just a #s guy and haven't watched the Jets play.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

It's funny how every Coles thread ends talking about D.Robertson..... and with nyjunc involved.

[akhhorus]

I can see you are just a #s guy and haven't watched the Jets play.

Not at all. I watched them play a few times this year with a friend who is a huge Jets fans. Robertson has a nice push from time to time, but I think it had to do with Abe and Ellis on the edges. BUt he's not a Top 5 DT and he wasnt worth the #4 pick.

[nyjunc]

Not at all. I watched them play a few times this year with a friend who is a huge Jets fans. Robertson has a nice push from time to time, but I think it had to do with Abe and Ellis on the edges. BUt he's not a Top 5 DT and he wasnt worth the #4 pick.

So what were the reasons why he was playing big time football down the stretch when Abraham wasn't in? I think the reason that Ellis has all of a sudden become a big time DE is b/c of Dewayne, he was an inconsistent, struggling DE before Dewayne came aboard and now he is one of the best all around DEs in the game.

It's funny how every Coles thread ends talking about D.Robertson..... and with nyjunc involved.

They are connected b/c that was who we wound up w/ after we got your #1 pick and I didn't bring up dewayne today, others did and I responded.

[LATrueRedskin]

I disagree. Rookies can have an impact. The #9 pick will have an impact, and if we can pick up a late first rounder for Coles, we can nab a pass rushing DE that can have an immediate impact. Remember 2004, one fo the biggest impacts came from our third rounder, Chris Cooley.

Absolutely. I'd rather get a late first, early second pick for Coles. What team has two first rounders?

[nyjunc]

I have to go, I'll pick this discussion up later w/ you guys. Take care.

[redskin_rich]

Absolutely. I'd rather get a late first, early second pick for Coles. What team has two first rounders?
San Diego and Dallas are the only ones I think.

[Dexter72]

It's hilarious to folks who just use stats to gauge everything. Dewayne was the Most irreplaceable player on our D. We lost Abe and were ok, we lost Ellis and were ok but if we lost Robertson we would have been in big trouble.

Here's the problem: You don't draft a DT in the top 5 because he can occupy blockers and occasionally requires a double-team. Ted Washington, Pat Williams, Keith Traylor, Joe Salavea, those guys can occupy players and require the occasional double-team, and they do it for cheap. You draft a DT in the top 5 because he is supposed to be able to get to the QB...he's supposed to be quick enough to beat the OL help...the way a young Warren Sapp could. Sapp had 9 sacks his 2nd year, Robertson had 3. You got Dan Wilkinson 2.0.

[chrisbcbu]

This thread is about Coles, not about Robertson. I dont think anyone here cares about Robertson.

[Bill Malinchak]

Didn't Abraham sit out a playoff game to protect his FA value? No thanks. Wynn just renegotiated and we also have a healthy ( I hope) Daniels.

[techskinsfan]

listening ot 980 now...mentioned coles...said according to the times...were not tradin for abe now

[whitskins]

To think that Coles will get us nothing better than a 3rd rounder b/c we're
"just going to release him anyways" is totally incorrect. Why would we just release Coles anyways? His cap number is very manageable this year, if we can't get a good deal then why the heck not just say "sorry LC, you're stuck here". If we're going to cut him at all it will be next year.

It seems like out of town fans are putting much more stock into the Nunyo article than their teams' front offices will be.

Plus, teams will offer more than a 3rd b/c they are bidding against each other. I'm pretty confident that the Jets aren't the only team in the NFL interested in Coles. We won't get less than a 2nd rounder.

[whitskins]

listening ot 980 now...mentioned coles...said according to the times...were not tradin for abe now

At least that was put to rest, that rumor may have gotten our pulses racing but it didn't make sense. The Jets would have gotten hosed and the last thing we need is a top five paid player on defense...

[PA Skins Girl]

listening ot 980 now...mentioned coles...said according to the times...were not tradin for abe now
According to the Times? The Washington Times? I dont think that is what the Times article said. It said:

"The source said the Jets are the focus of at least some trade talks. A deal for Jets defensive end John Abraham, who has been given the franchise tag, apparently was broached. The sides also could complete a deal involving draft picks. Talks should heat up at the NFL Scouting Combine this week."

[techskinsfan]

According to the Times? The Washington Times? I dont think that is what the Times article said. It said:

"The source said the Jets are the focus of at least some trade talks. A deal for Jets defensive end John Abraham, who has been given the franchise tag, apparently was broached. The sides also could complete a deal involving draft picks. Talks should heat up at the NFL Scouting Combine this week."
i didnt read the article...im just sayin what 980 said their source was

[CNYSkinFan]

To think that Coles will get us nothing better than a 3rd rounder b/c we're
"just going to release him anyways" is totally incorrect. Why would we just release Coles anyways? His cap number is very manageable this year, if we can't get a good deal then why the heck not just say "sorry LC, you're stuck here". If we're going to cut him at all it will be next year.

It seems like out of town fans are putting much more stock into the Nunyo article than their teams' front offices will be.

Plus, teams will offer more than a 3rd b/c they are bidding against each other. I'm pretty confident that the Jets aren't the only team in the NFL interested in Coles. We won't get less than a 2nd rounder.

I tend to agree here, but if other teams do a physical and the to concerns them it could go down to 3. Maybe the Redskins FRont OFfice is right about this injury.

[whitskins]

I tend to agree here, but if other teams do a physical and the to concerns them it could go down to 3. Maybe the Redskins FRont OFfice is right about this injury.

That could happen but this is an injury that has caused Coles to miss zero games in the last two years. I'd rather keep him another year than get less than a 2nd rounder.

[skins111111]

Coles did say he was happy with the cortizone treatment he recieved latter in the season.

[smoak]

I'd definitely take a second or third IF he greatly lessens the cap hit for us. Basically we'd be getting something where there could have been nothing and I don't want someone on the team who is not 100% committed to the Redskins, Gibbs, and winning a SB.

[BurgundyNGold]

After I calmed down, I started to feel that way. Coles is a great WR and I don't see us replacing his production, but I think we can "spread the wealth" and not rely on a guy who has a chronic injury and is disenchanted with the organization/coach.
Good point and that's probably what will happen. If I'm not mistaken, none of the trio or WRs that took us to the SB in '82 (Charlie Brown, Alvin Garrett or Virgil Seay) were even in the league 3 years later, so Gibbs can certaily do it. I hate to say it, but more recently, Philly went to 3 straight NFC championship games before getting TO with the perhaps the weakest WR corps in the league. How'd they do it? They spread it around.

[chad101]

LOL. So a Wideout, in a bad offense for two years, with a toe injury: still gets 2000 yard recieving is worth LESS than a DT who has 4 career sacks and it generally regarded as above-average. Abraham is worth more than Coles, but Robertson is nowhere near his value. He is not a Top 5 DT, He is not on the verge of stardom. The Skins still have all the leverage: he's under contract to the skins. Coles has none. The Skins can just tell him to F-off and pout if he wants.


You know zero about football if you think a WR who has been asked by his own team to have surgery is worth a 2nd year top 5 DT.

Skins have zero leverage....they either take what someone offers...2nd rounder maybe..,,,....release Coles or ... keep a disgruntled player.

[Redskinmayhem]

Seriously, if we can't work out a good deal for both Coles and the Skins, I say we just keep him and if he decides to be a cancer, then bench his butt. No true athlete(As Coles is) would be willing to dogg it and risk his own perception by the media and fans.

BTW, I can't keep up with this thread. I just got back from lunch and there's like 4 more pages added to it. same with all the other LC threads. Sheesh.

[chad101]

ROTFLMAO

You are his agent!

He is absolutely correct.....The Jets would trade Abraham long before Robertson. Robertson had a better year than Abraham as well.

[nyjunc]

Here's the problem: You don't draft a DT in the top 5 because he can occupy blockers and occasionally requires a double-team. Ted Washington, Pat Williams, Keith Traylor, Joe Salavea, those guys can occupy players and require the occasional double-team, and they do it for cheap. You draft a DT in the top 5 because he is supposed to be able to get to the QB...he's supposed to be quick enough to beat the OL help...the way a young Warren Sapp could. Sapp had 9 sacks his 2nd year, Robertson had 3. You got Dan Wilkinson 2.0.

DTs are not about sacks it is a position about stuffing the run, occupying blockers for your pass rushers and getting pressure on the QB. he does all 3 at a pro bowl level and he will be a pro bowler next year, guys usually break through the year after they deserve it and he definitely deserved it this year.

To think that Coles will get us nothing better than a 3rd rounder b/c we're
"just going to release him anyways" is totally incorrect. Why would we just release Coles anyways? His cap number is very manageable this year, if we can't get a good deal then why the heck not just say "sorry LC, you're stuck here". If we're going to cut him at all it will be next year.


You are forgetting if you release coles he will be giving some of his signing bonus back to create cap room so the chances are as long as he agrees to give some of his bonus back he will be cut but if he doesn't then he stays, so the likelihood of him just being released is pretty good.

[PA Skins Girl]

i didnt read the article...im just sayin what 980 said their source wasI know. Sorry if I sounded like I was coming down on you. I was trying to make the point that 980 might not have the sorry right.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

this trade isnt going to happen....but i would love if we could get a 1st or 2nd for LC. anyone think the chargers would give up a 1st for coles and a another later round pick?

[akhhorus]

this trade isnt going to happen....but i would love if we could get a 1st or 2nd for LC. anyone think the chargers would give up a 1st for coles and a another later round pick?

Yes. Either:
Coles for:
San Diego 1st rounder #11 and WR Eric Parker
or
San Diego 1st rounder #28, Eric Parker and a 2nd rounder.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

Yes. Either:
Coles for:
San Diego 1st rounder #11 and WR Eric Parker
or
San Diego 1st rounder #28, Eric Parker and a 2nd rounder.
but san diego really likes parker dont they?

[akhhorus]

but san diego really likes parker dont they?

Yes, but Coles is better.

[Skinsfan1906]

Then I guess it's damaged goods for damaged goods. Let's be realistic. A straight up trade is fair for both teams.

You know, with the injury issues of both, I was thinking the exact same thing. With that being said, if we got Abraham and he remained healthy, then our D would be a BEAST. As for our offense........

[Dexter72]

DTs are not about sacks it is a position about stuffing the run, occupying blockers for your pass rushers and getting pressure on the QB.[/B] he does all 3 at a pro bowl level and he will be a pro bowler next year, guys usually break through the year after they deserve it and he definitely deserved it this year.

Exactly; a top 5 DT is supposed to do all 3, Robertson hasn't shown the ability to be a big-time pass rusher and he's not near being a premeire run-stopper. How do you get pressure "at a Pro Bowl level" yet somehow only manage to get 3 sacks in a season? If he was getting any kind of pressure on a consistent basis, he would've had 3 sacks by accident, to go along with another 6-8. Shawn Springs is a CB, and he had twice as many sacks as your boy.

[akhhorus]

Exactly; a top 5 DT is supposed to do all 3, Robertson hasn't shown the ability to be a big-time pass rusher and he's not near being a premeire run-stopper. How do you get pressure "at a Pro Bowl level" yet somehow only manage to get 3 sacks in a season? If he was getting any kind of pressure on a consistent basis, he would've had 3 sacks by accident, to go along with another 6-8. Shawn Springs is a CB, and he had twice as many sacks as your boy.

And nyjunc glosses over the fact that Robertson also plays with 3 good Dlinemen. That could make him look better than he actually is.

[candeeman]

And nyjunc glosses over the fact that Robertson also plays with 3 good Dlinemen. That could make him look better than he actually is.
Love is blind!

[The Skinsinator]

That could happen but this is an injury that has caused Coles to miss zero games in the last two years. I'd rather keep him another year than get less than a 2nd rounder.

I totally agree. Anything less than a 2nd round pick is not what we need. We need minimum a 2nd rounder. The heart of this draft is basically mid 1st-end of 2nd round anyway. With a 2nd rounder, we could fill a need nicely on the o-line or get another wideout. This is definetly going to be interesting how all this pans out.

[nyjunc]

Exactly; a top 5 DT is supposed to do all 3, Robertson hasn't shown the ability to be a big-time pass rusher and he's not near being a premeire run-stopper. How do you get pressure "at a Pro Bowl level" yet somehow only manage to get 3 sacks in a season? If he was getting any kind of pressure on a consistent basis, he would've had 3 sacks by accident, to go along with another 6-8. Shawn Springs is a CB, and he had twice as many sacks as your boy.

He opens things up for the rest of the DL which is why they had alot of sacks. DTs are not required to be great pass rushers, I'd rather have a guy putting constant pressure and opening things up for others than a oure sacks guy.

And nyjunc glosses over the fact that Robertson also plays with 3 good Dlinemen. That could make him look better than he actually is.

Abe was just a pass rusher before Robertson now he's good against the run as well, Ellis was a disappointment now he made the PB last year and is one of the best all around DEs in the game, Ferguson was washed up and had struggled for a few years before Robertson got here and now he is once again considered a good DT. You have it the wrong way, our DL was always about potential but as Dewyane developed this year that potential turned into one of the best DLs in the game.

[akhhorus]

You have it the wrong way, our DL was always about potential but as Dewyane developed this year that potential turned into one of the best DLs in the game. :lol1: :lol1:

You are smoking the Crack rock now. Dewayne isnt even in the top 20 of DLmen. I sometimes overestimate the talent of skins players, but I'm not this big a homer J Simpson.

[IMALILTEAPOT]

i would trade coles for abraham, but im just so depressed rite now, why are people wanting to leave dc? cant they see we have a good thing going here?

[Dexter72]

You have it the wrong way, our DL was always about potential but as Dewyane developed this year that potential turned into one of the best DLs in the game.

Wow, he's responsible for the single biggest jump in play of the players around him since Canseco went to Texas.

[candeeman]

I would take griffin.

[akhhorus]

I would take griffin.

And:
Laroi Glover
Kevin Williams
Jason Ferguson
Corey Simon
Darwin Walker
Casey Hampton
Sam Adams
Kevin Carter
Rod Coleman
Darnell Dockett
Albert Haynesworth
Kris Jenkins
Shaun Rodgers
Randy Starks
Jamal Williams

[LATrueRedskin]

i would trade coles for abraham, but im just so depressed rite now, why are people wanting to leave dc? cant they see we have a good thing going here?

What people? Coles is the only one. We WANT Gardner out of here.

[IMALILTEAPOT]

What people? Coles is the only one. We WANT Gardner out of here.
smoot

[LATrueRedskin]

smoot

Oh yeah, him. IMO, Smoot's already gone. I forgot all about him.

[deviljets7]

Abraham for Coles straight up is pure insanity for the Jets. Abraham is a better player than Coles plus pash rushing DE's are significantly harder to find than quality WR's (free agent history shows that).

Coles has some trade value no doubt about it, but it is nowhere near the #13 pick he was worth 2 years ago. He's 2 years older, has the toe issue, and is now starting to get into the bigger money part of his deal. He is a good receiver, but he is imo a 2nd tier WR with genuine questions about health and attitude. With that in mind and some of the wide receivers that are available, I think fair value for Coles is probably a 3rd round pick, maybe a #2.

[smoak]

Abraham for Coles straight up is pure insanity for the Jets.

Just for the record, my argument against Coles for Abraham was because I don't like JA's attitude and price tag. It was not because of his ability (when he plays). I actually agree that Coles' value is down from when we acquired, but probably not by much. He is still a #1 WR but now has some health concerns.

[akhhorus]

Abraham for Coles straight up is pure insanity for the Jets. Abraham is a better player than Coles plus pash rushing DE's are significantly harder to find than quality WR's (free agent history shows that).

Coles has some trade value no doubt about it, but it is nowhere near the #13 pick he was worth 2 years ago. He's 2 years older, has the toe issue, and is now starting to get into the bigger money part of his deal. He is a good receiver, but he is imo a 2nd tier WR with genuine questions about health and attitude. With that in mind and some of the wide receivers that are available, I think fair value for Coles is probably a 3rd round pick, maybe a #2.

Right. Considering that Jerry porter is off the market? A high 2 at least.

[deviljets7]

I think the key is just how bad this toe injury is. While he was able to play through it, according to some reports this is a pretty major issue. Let us not forget that T.O. went for a #2 and a backup DE.

[deviljets7]

Just for the record, my argument against Coles for Abraham was because I don't like JA's attitude and price tag. It was not because of his ability (when he plays). I actually agree that Coles' value is down from when we acquired, but probably not by much. He is still a #1 WR but now has some health concerns.

I understand some of the reservations about Abraham considering his injury history and the fact that the Redskins have a very good defense. With Abraham's injury history, his price tag (the franchise on DE is 6.67 mil), and the way the Jets D played after he left, I am in favor of trading him (if they can get a #1) and using the savings to fill in 2-3 holes. I just don't think that Coles is anywhere close to equal value for Abraham even with Abraham's injury issues.

[akhhorus]

I think the key is just how bad this toe injury is. While he was able to play through it, according to some reports this is a pretty major issue. Let us not forget that T.O. went for a #2 and a backup DE.

1-His toe was so bad that it limited to 90 catches
2-The TO situation is not congruent. He was about to become a Free Agent and the 49ers had to dump him immediately.

[Skinz4lyfe]

1-His toe was so bad that it limited to 90 catches
2-The TO situation is not congruent. He was about to become a Free Agent and the 49ers had to dump him immediately.

I second that. Peerless Price went for a 1st. AJ Feeley went for a 2nd. Hey even Brunell went for a 3rd. Its all in "perceived value".

[2Cooley]

I agree, look at Jansen his rookie year and he was a secound round draft pick right? Who is to say a second round Center (Bass out of Michigan) could also not do as well, also Mike Williams at #9 or possibly trading down getting HEath at TE and another Wr at another pick.

Draft picks are nice and cheap as well. Which we need because even best case scenarios with Coles shows we will take a 5 million dollar dead cap hit this year.


The # 9 pick wont be all that cheap and you can not start a rookie C and expect him to have any impact C does not work like that. If we started bass at guard maybe but not C.

[akhhorus]

I second that. Peerless Price went for a 1st. AJ Feeley went for a 2nd. Hey even Brunell went for a 3rd. Its all in "perceived value".

I thank the Gentleman from LA for his kind words. Price, even Coles leaving the JEts are congruent situations. The only difference is that there is only one top flight WR on the FA market now. I suspect that the Skins can get good value for him.

[CNYSkinFan]

The # 9 pick wont be all that cheap and you can not start a rookie C and expect him to have any impact C does not work like that. If we started bass at guard maybe but not C.

#9 will be moderately expensive but the way the FO does the deal the first couple of years will not be that expensive and we need that to buy some times.

I want us to get a veteran C and Bass and use the vet to work Bss into the offense but I think by the end of the year or in 2006 a young C in this year's draft could have a huge impact for us.

[2Cooley]

i would trade coles for abraham, but im just so depressed rite now, why are people wanting to leave dc? cant they see we have a good thing going here?


They are leaving cause we are not winning and the only reason that we will (if we do) get a big name FA it will be because we can pay them alot of money cause they know they are coming to a not so good situation.

[akhhorus]

They are leaving cause we are not winning and the only reason that we will (if we do) get a big name FA it will be because we can pay them alot of money cause they know they are coming to a not so good situation.

We dont know why Smoot is leaving(we have a good idea-he wants top flight money), and COles(there are rumors but nothing solid)

[deviljets7]

I second that. Peerless Price went for a 1st. AJ Feeley went for a 2nd. Hey even Brunell went for a 3rd. Its all in "perceived value".

It is all in perceived value, but most of the big trades involving proven WR's have not been very good lately.
Coles for a #1
Price for a #1
Joey Galloway for 2 #1's
Keyshawn for 2 #1's

That combined with the new contact rules making it easier for WR's to succeed (especially rookies making an immediate impact) and I think the perceived value for WR's is not as high as it was 2 year ago (let alone 5 years ago with Galloway and Keyshawn). Also in the context of WR for DE trades, when the Dolphins traded Ogunleye (who was holding out) they got Marty Booker and a #3 pick.

[Redskinmayhem]

I thank the Gentleman from LA for his kind words. Price, even Coles leaving the JEts are congruent situations. The only difference is that there is only one top flight WR on the FA market now. I suspect that the Skins can get good value for him.

exactly, as more FA WR's sign with teams Coles become more Valuable. I'm glad Porter signed today. That instantly gives coles more value. I would honestly say that of all the FA WR's out thereas of right now, coles may be the best. Sure there are bigger stronger guys but look at coles' consistency. Do Plax, Muhammy, TJ Houshman, etc have that? no. Coles has had 80 plus catches the past 3 years and has caught more balls every year for the past 3. He's a good WR, bad toe or not. I didn't mention Derrick Mason because I want him to continue under the radar until Redskin one pulls up to his home.
:)

[2Cooley]

#9 will be moderately expensive but the way the FO does the deal the first couple of years will not be that expensive and we need that to buy some times.

I want us to get a veteran C and Bass and use the vet to work Bss into the offense but I think by the end of the year or in 2006 a young C in this year's draft could have a huge impact for us.


I doubt it I have never seen a good 2nd to 3rd yeear center cause they dont really exist, but i guess it might be an upgrade. If you look at all of the best players at every postion you could argue that they are fairly young except center.


The average age for a good center has to be atleast 27-28 now there are some exceptions Bass could be one, but i would rather get a true center like Vince Carter or Big Ben (they are both names of basketball players and soon to be rookie centers lol) and they are calling this the best draft for centers ever i would like to look at that guy for mississippi also.

[deviljets7]

I thank the Gentleman from LA for his kind words. Price, even Coles leaving the JEts are congruent situations. The only difference is that there is only one top flight WR on the FA market now. I suspect that the Skins can get good value for him.

Derrick Mason and Mushin Mohammed would disagree with you.

[Redskinmayhem]

It is all in perceived value, but most of the big trades involving proven WR's have not been very good lately.
Coles for a #1
Price for a #1
Joey Galloway for 2 #1's
Keyshawn for 2 #1's

That combined with the new contact rules making it easier for WR's to succeed (especially rookies making an immediate impact) and I think the perceived value for WR's is not as high as it was 2 year ago (let alone 5 years ago with Galloway and Keyshawn). Also in the context of WR for DE trades, when the Dolphins traded Ogunleye (who was holding out) they got Marty Booker and a #3 pick.

Good point, Ogun is a good DE but but both sides got screwed on the deal. Da bearsss gave up a very productive and consistent WR and a pick, for good DE(what did he have like 6 sacks this year?) and the phins got a total bust of a WR who's no better now than Derrius Thompson.

[akhhorus]

Derrick Mason and Mushin Mohammed would disagree with you.

Mason has been cut, Muhammed hasnt(yet). Both are older, and Coles is probably better than both. You also dont have to get into a bidding war over them.

[deviljets7]

Mason has been cut, Muhammed hasnt(yet). Both are older, and Coles is probably better than both. You also dont have to get into a bidding war over them.

They also won't cost any picks to acquire in addition to money.

[2Cooley]

We dont know why Smoot is leaving(we have a good idea-he wants top flight money), and COles(there are rumors but nothing solid)

Smoot is leaving because he does not have a mind of his own and what were the rumors about coles leaving was there something besides down-field production that is the only thing i have heard. Does he have a problem with gibbs?

[akhhorus]

They also won't cost any picks to acquire in addition to money.

This is true. But Musin is 5 years older and only did well against bad pass defenses. Mason is 4 years older. Both are inferior to Coles, even with his bad toe. Consider that there will be 8 teams bidding on Musin, Plaxico, TJ Houz, Mason: I would rather call the Skins and ask about Coles.

[akhhorus]

Smoot is leaving because he does not have a mind of his own and what were the rumors about coles leaving was there something besides down-field production that is the only thing i have heard. Does he have a problem with gibbs?

reportedtly, the Skins told him to get the surgery or else. And he declined.

[Spence]

Smoot is leaving because he does not have a mind of his ownCome on! How do you know that? Don't you have any respect at all for Fred Smoot? Do you think he's a complete idiot? He's behaving the way almost all free agents behave. He thinks he's worth a lot of money and he'll go anywhere he thinks he can get it. There's nothing unusual about that. Don't question the mind of Fred Smoot. Question the mind of anyone who thought he'd ever behave differently.

[2Cooley]

Come on! How do you know that? Don't you have any respect at all for Fred Smoot? Do you think he's a complete idiot? He's behaving the way almost all free agents behave. He thinks he's worth a lot of money and he'll go anywhere he thinks he can get it. There's nothing unusual about that. Don't question the mind of Fred Smoot. Question the mind of anyone who thought he'd ever behave differently.


so you think it would be this way if he never knew champ and deion?

[2Cooley]

reportedtly, the Skins told him to get the surgery or else. And he declined.


o i did not know about that, why is everyone saying he quit on the team. from the team saying "or else" it sounds like the are cutting him.

[Redskin006]

o i did not know about that, why is everyone saying he quit on the team. from the team saying "or else" it sounds like the are cutting him.

if they were cutting him, he wouldnt be giving back any of his signing bonus, so he must have wanted to leave as well.

[smoak]

o i did not know about that, why is everyone saying he quit on the team. from the team saying "or else" it sounds like the are cutting him.

coles initiated the "i don't want be here" conversation. i think gibbs sensed this attitude from some players and gave an open invitation for people to approach him if they didn't want to play for the Redskins in 2005. to my knowledge (which is vastly limited) coles is the only player to approach gibbs regarding leaving the Redskins.

[deviljets7]

This is true. But Musin is 5 years older and only did well against bad pass defenses. Mason is 4 years older. Both are inferior to Coles, even with his bad toe. Consider that there will be 8 teams bidding on Musin, Plaxico, TJ Houz, Mason: I would rather call the Skins and ask about Coles.

Musin is debatable considering his streaks of inconsistency, but there is no way Coles is better than Mason. I mean he only had 191 receptions over the last 2 years.

I could be wrong, but with the huge increase in passing total thanks to the new contact rules I don't think the demand for 2nd tier WR's (which Coles and Musin are) will not be the same it once was. Just for example last year there were 49 players with 700 or more receiving yards and 24 with more than 1,000 in 2004. In comparison there were only 41 with more than 700 and 12 with more than 1,000 in 2003.

[nyjunc]

And:
Laroi Glover
Kevin Williams
Jason Ferguson
Corey Simon
Darwin Walker
Casey Hampton
Sam Adams
Kevin Carter
Rod Coleman
Darnell Dockett
Albert Haynesworth
Kris Jenkins
Shaun Rodgers
Randy Starks
Jamal Williams

:lol3: :lol3:

Honestly, you haven't got a clue and there is no point discussing this further.

[akhhorus]

:lol3: :lol3:

Honestly, you haven't got a clue and there is no point discussing this further.

Oh please, I want to hear your explanation how Dewayne is better than them.
I want to hear the logical corkscrew in which you'll say Dewayne is better than Kevin Williams, Kris Jenkins, Glover, Hampton, Shaun Rodgers. Just those guys, I want to hear that one.

[Skinz4lyfe]

Well I'm not so sure about that. I believe a healthy Coles is better than D. Mason (because he can pose more of a deep threat) but he hasn't been healthy in a year and a half. I love Coles toughness and I believe they're about equal in talent. However, the reason why I'd prefer Coles is because he's 5 years younger than Mason. Their stats for the last 3 years aren't that different (especially considering who's throwing the ball).

[akhhorus]

:lol3: :lol3:

Honestly, you haven't got a clue and there is no point discussing this further.

And obviously, you have the biggest prescription for homer glasses when looking at your NFL team.

[nyjunc]

Oh please, I want to hear your explanation how Dewayne is better than them.
I want to hear the logical corkscrew in which you'll say Dewayne is better than Kevin Williams, Kris Jenkins, Glover, Hampton, Shaun Rodgers. Just those guys, I want to hear that one.

I have gone through it, I want to hear your logical explanation this time.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

I have gone through it, I want to hear your logical explanation this time.
do you really believe DR is better than those guys?? REALLY??

[akhhorus]

I have gone through it, I want to hear your logical explanation this time.

all you've given is sophistry. You havent provided anything. And it's you who are making the point that I have not seen anywhere else.


The floor is yours.

[RedskinsDave]

all you've given is sophistry. You havent provided anything. And it's you who are making the point that I have not seen anywhere else.


The floor is yours.

First he has to look up sophistry. Your wait will be longer now. Next time just say delusion.

[BurgundyNGold]

First he has to look up sophistry. Your wait will be longer now. Next time just say delusion.
Uh, just to be safe, just say "stuff that's not real" :D

[dj_stouty]

Robertson isn't all those NYJ homers make him out to be....

So what if he "commanded" double teams and helped the Jets limit their opposing RB to 3.6 yards per carry. I know that the rotation of lesser named DTs for the Skins had the league's BEST rush defense in the yards per carry category at 3.1ypc. Not bad for a below .500 team who had teams running on them all year.

[akhhorus]

First he has to look up sophistry. Your wait will be longer now. Next time just say delusion.

Robertson is a good young player: but to call any player who got 3 SACKS a top five DT is ridiculous.

[GoDannyBoy]

Let Abraham play (or not Play) for somebody else. Let's not get another high paid head case.

Keep our picks and grow some talent.

[IowaSkinsFan]

First he has to look up sophistry. Your wait will be longer now. Next time just say delusion.

:lol1:

[Redskinmayhem]

JOE SALAVE'A IS BETTER THAN D. ROBERTSON!!!! At the very least his air guitar is way better than DR's. no one can argue that!

Oh yeah!!!!

[techskinsfan]

best celebration in the league last year hands down...in my books at least

[nyjunc]

do you really believe DR is better than those guys?? REALLY??

Not all of them but most of them.

all you've given is sophistry. You havent provided anything. And it's you who are making the point that I have not seen anywhere else

I'm still waiting for you, you have not given me anything bsides wathcing 3 Jet games which I am sure you were watching Dewayne intently :rolleyes:

First he has to look up sophistry. Your wait will be longer now. Next time just say delusion.

and now RedskinsDave chimes in. Another who I debated w/ and could not show me any proof. Hey Dave I'm still waiting for your list of big shots by JJ redick.

Robertson is a good young player: but to call any player who got 3 SACKS a top five DT is ridiculous.

Once again DTs are not about sacks. DE's are judged on sacks NOT DTs.

I guess Dave Butz and darryl Grant weren't very good, after all they just had 1 season each over 6 sacks.

[PA Skins Girl]

Can we start a Dewayne Robertson thread and put it on the all NFL forum. I'm tired of checking this thread to find it is a debate about frickin' Dewayne Robertson. Who gives a crap?

[techskinsfan]

Can we start a Dewayne Robertson thread and put it on the all NFL forum. I'm tired of checking this thread to find it is a debate about frickin' Dewayne Robertson. Who gives a crap?
i know right

[akhhorus]

Not all of them but most of them.

I'm still waiting for you, you have not given me anything bsides wathcing 3 Jet games which I am sure you were watching Dewayne intently :rolleyes:

Once again DTs are not about sacks. DE's are judged on sacks NOT DTs.

I guess Dave Butz and darryl Grant weren't very good, after all they just had 1 season each over 6 sacks.

Hey, he's your boy: Explain why he's in the top five of DTs in the league. And yes, DTs aren't expected to get sacks: but the best ones do. Please explain how Kevin Williams got 11.5 sacks. There are plenty of good DTs who take up blockers and frustrate the run: Robertson fits in this category. He is nowhere near the cream of the DTs. Those guys get the sacks anyways.

Butz and Grant were not great players by any stretch of the imagination. They were role players on great teams.

[NCskinfan]

Now that Moss is in Oakland and The Vikings have two #1's . . .

How about LC and our 4th rounder to Minnesota for their #18 overall? That makes them less likely to take a WR at 7. I think we'll need more, but that is the kind of place LC would like to play.

[akhhorus]

Now that Moss is in Oakland and The Vikings have two #1's . . .

How about LC and our 4th rounder to Minnesota for their #18 overall? That makes them less likely to take a WR at 7. I think we'll need more, but that is the kind of place LC would like to play.

I think we could get Coles for the #18 pick and a conditional pick in 06(based on Coles' performance).

[techskinsfan]

I think we could get Coles for the #18 pick and a conditional pick in 06(based on Coles' performance).
yea the vikes trade could help us...cuz they will probably have interest in coles...but it could hurt us also...cuz they could go after a mason or some other wr we are targeting

[whitskins]

yea the vikes trade could help us...cuz they will probably have interest in coles...but it could hurt us also...cuz they could go after a mason or some other wr we are targeting

Hopefully they go after Burress and leave Mike Williams alone so we can draft him. I could definitely see Burress doing jumping jacks to join the Vikes and they have a TON of cap room. The Vikes are still crap on D and will likely have to deal with Favre for one more year, they should draft Pac Man. Or maybe I'm telling myself this b/c I want MW to fall to us.

[colkurtz]

I've read this ENTIRE thread. Sure the 'skins talked to the Jets about JA. So what? They probably wanted to see what the Jets had to say.

The real problem with the 'skins is their lack of cap space. How are they going to pay a guy like Abramson? The same problem came last year - do you hire one player, like J. Kearse, who essentially empties the coffers, or hire more, but cheaper players?

The end result of the Coles saga is a trade for draft pick - my guess is in the second round. I really liked Coles and thought he had great heart and toughness. but he doesn't want to play here and has made that public. A trade will be made.

The Redskins experiment for the last 5 years has been to hire top-name players for tons of money. Many came and performed just enough to get those fat paychecks. Our record has been terrible.

The Gibbs team drafted very well last year. Trading some of our players, who want out, is the logical conclusion. I see us using FA for Center and a WR. We'll draft for WR, DE and OL [again].

[ConradCountry]

I've read this ENTIRE thread. Sure the 'skins talked to the Jets about JA. So what? They probably wanted to see what the Jets had to say.

The real problem with the 'skins is their lack of cap space. How are they going to pay a guy like Abramson? The same problem came last year - do you hire one player, like J. Kearse, who essentially empties the coffers, or hire more, but cheaper players?

The end result of the Coles saga is a trade for draft pick - my guess is in the second round. I really liked Coles and thought he had great heart and toughness. but he doesn't want to play here and has made that public. A trade will be made.

The Redskins experiment for the last 5 years has been to hire top-name players for tons of money. Many came and performed just enough to get those fat paychecks. Our record has been terrible.

The Gibbs team drafted very well last year. Trading some of our players, who want out, is the logical conclusion. I see us using FA for Center and a WR. We'll draft for WR, DE and OL [again].

WR Lavernius Coles to the Jets for 2{58} and MLB Victor Hobson

[Redskin006]

WR Lavernius Coles to the Jets for 2{58} and MLB Victor Hobson

I know this wont happen, but the Jets 2 and MLB Jonathan Vilma. Vilma is a great MLB. THe only thing is that they just drafted him in the first last year, so they look at this trade as trading a 1st and 2nd. But Victor Hobson is a definite option, if need be. But, I still have faith that the Skins will sign Pierce.

[colkurtz]

I know this wont happen, but the Jets 2 and MLB Jonathan Vilma. Vilma is a great MLB. THe only thing is that they just drafted him in the first last year, so they look at this trade as trading a 1st and 2nd. But Victor Hobson is a definite option, if need be. But, I still have faith that the Skins will sign Pierce.

I agree, i think the 'skins will re-sign Pierce. They just had a real nice article in Redskins.com about him. They wouldn't be giving him props if they really thought he was gone................................

[smave]

did coles have surgery on his toe or not?

[akhhorus]

did coles have surgery on his toe or not?

Nope, he's refusing; the skins are insistant that he have it. This might be the reason why he's asking out.

[bwparker]

Nope, he's refusing; the skins are insistant that he have it. This might be the reason why he's asking out.
I wish they would release more info about this. I remember reading that if he had surgery it could never heal and end his career. What the hell is so wrong with his toe?

[Redskinfan28]

Skins apparently willing to trade Coles without restructure. Thats why they are so anxious to restructure Samuels. WTF???? Why not keep Coles, restructure Samuels, and sign Mason? Anyway.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1998972

[akhhorus]

I wish they would release more info about this. I remember reading that if he had surgery it could never heal and end his career. What the hell is so wrong with his toe?

He had a tiny bone broken in his foot, it has to be removed. It could end his career.

[BIGSEF3]

man, it looks like we should have signed samuels to that innitial offer, then we would be set.

[BIGSEF3]

Skins apparently willing to trade Coles without restructure. Thats why they are so anxious to restructure Samuels. WTF???? Why not keep Coles, restructure Samuels, and sign Mason? Anyway.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1998972

because that would be rediculously expensive. mason is without a doubt the premier WR in free agency and will demand a high price. we cant afford mason and coles salaries in 2006 and beyond.

[ArRiNgToN_56]

Not to be rude, but I'd rather have a guy who doesn't sit out playoff games because he is concerned about his chance to be a FA. (That was from an interview with Abraham during the playoffs.) Not only that, but the cap hit for JA ia not one I'd personally be willing to take considering the injury concerns.

Why should he stick his neck and risk injury for a team that won't give him a contract? Lets say he does play and agravates his injury what now? I'll tell you what hes out millions. I don't think you should be so quick to judge him.

[akhhorus]

Why should he stick his neck and risk injury for a team that won't give him a contract? Lets say he does play and agravates his injury what now? I'll tell you what hes out millions. I don't think you should be so quick to judge him.

What are you talking about? Coles has a contract with the Skins. He's an investment for the Skins, they want that investment to get healthy. Whats wrong with that? And if he has to retire, then he still keeps his 13 million dollar bonus and gets a portion of his salary.

[RoanokeSkin]

What are you talking about? Coles has a contract with the Skins. He's an investment for the Skins, they want that investment to get healthy. Whats wrong with that? And if he has to retire, then he still keeps his 13 million dollar bonus and gets a portion of his salary.


I believe he was referring to Abraham, not Coles

[akhhorus]

I believe he was referring to Abraham, not Coles

Oh well, nevermind then.

[Redskinfan28]

because that would be rediculously expensive. mason is without a doubt the premier WR in free agency and will demand a high price. we cant afford mason and coles salaries in 2006 and beyond.

You don't think the Skins would go after Mason if Coles stays? If Samuels restructures, some people think we will have more than 10 Mil in cap space. Seems doable to me.

[techskinsfan]

link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1998972)

looks like there is legit interest...lets get sam redone and trade coles

[Redskinfan28]

link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1998972)

looks like there is legit interest...lets get sam redone and trade coles

With or without the restructure?

[joethefan]

With or without the restructure?

i say we make is A$$ stay...and play. Then if he starts to complain again,,,Keyshawn!!!!

[techskinsfan]

i think they arent gonna make him restructure...it just hinges on sam freein up enough room...i hope he cuts the hit down some though

[PA Skins Girl]

If Coles gives back only $5.0 million of the bonus, it means $4.286 million in dead cap money ($0.929 million more than he would cost for being on the roster), plus we have a major hole to fill. If the Skins do that deal, it means the Skins want to get rid of him as much as he wants to leave.

[Redskinfan28]

If Coles gives back only $5.0 million of the bonus, it means $4.286 million in dead cap money ($0.929 million more than he would cost for being on the roster), plus we have a major hole to fill. If the Skins do that deal, it means the Skins want to get rid of him as much as he wants to leave.

Lenny P. seems to think the Skins will do the trade and absorb the 9 Mil dollar hit. That is what does not make any sense to me.

Maybe i read his article wrong, but that is what I think he is saying.

[akhhorus]

If Coles gives back only $5.0 million of the bonus, it means $4.286 million in dead cap money ($0.929 million more than he would cost for being on the roster), plus we have a major hole to fill. If the Skins do that deal, it means the Skins want to get rid of him as much as he wants to leave.

I hope he restructures. But if he doesnt, the skins will have eat a big charge this year, but have huge space in the cap.

[PA Skins Girl]

Lenny P. seems to think the Skins will do the trade and absorb the 9 Mil dollar hit. That is what does not make any sense to me.

Maybe i read his article wrong, but that is what I think he is saying.
He's saying we take a $9 million cap hit if we trade him without him giving up the $5 million in bonus.

From Lenny's article:
"The salary cap math involved in the Coles mess: If Washington trades the wide receiver, whom they signed as a restricted free agent in 2003, forfeiting a first-round draft choice to the New York Jets in that transaction, they face a cap impact in excess of $9 million. Efforts to have Coles bypass a $5 million deferred signing bonus due him on April 1, a move that would have dramatically decreased the cap hit, seem to have fallen apart."

If we trade him without him giving back the $5 million bonus, we would have $9.286 million in dead money.

[Redskinfan28]

He's saying we take a $9 million cap hit if we trade him without him giving up the $5 million in bonus.

From Lenny's article:
"The salary cap math involved in the Coles mess: If Washington trades the wide receiver, whom they signed as a restricted free agent in 2003, forfeiting a first-round draft choice to the New York Jets in that transaction, they face a cap impact in excess of $9 million. Efforts to have Coles bypass a $5 million deferred signing bonus due him on April 1, a move that would have dramatically decreased the cap hit, seem to have fallen apart."

If we trade him without him giving back the $5 million bonus, we would have $9.286 million in dead money.

That is certainly the reality of the situation. I did not think there was any way the Skins would trade Coles without him first giving back some money because of the cap hit. However, it appears that the Skins may simply trade Coles and absorb the 9 Million dollar hit.

That would be incredibly stupid, IMO.

[PA Skins Girl]

That is certainly the reality of the situation. I did not think there was any way the Skins would trade Coles without him first giving back some money because of the cap hit. However, it appears that the Skins may simply trade Coles and absorb the 9 Million dollar hit.

That would be incredibly stupid, IMO.
No way. Why would they?

[akhhorus]

He's saying we take a $9 million cap hit if we trade him without him giving up the $5 million in bonus.

From Lenny's article:
"The salary cap math involved in the Coles mess: If Washington trades the wide receiver, whom they signed as a restricted free agent in 2003, forfeiting a first-round draft choice to the New York Jets in that transaction, they face a cap impact in excess of $9 million. Efforts to have Coles bypass a $5 million deferred signing bonus due him on April 1, a move that would have dramatically decreased the cap hit, seem to have fallen apart."

If we trade him without him giving back the $5 million bonus, we would have $9.286 million in dead money.

Well, it would be 9 million minus his base salary for 05(1.5 or 2.5 million). It would hurt, but its palatable. And the skins would save a ton of room over the next few years.

[silverspring]

That is certainly the reality of the situation. I did not think there was any way the Skins would trade Coles without him first giving back some money because of the cap hit. However, it appears that the Skins may simply trade Coles and absorb the 9 Million dollar hit.

That would be incredibly stupid, IMO.

yeah it seems like the best strategy for the skins is to put the ball in coles' court and force him to give or keep him. They need to test and see how much he really wants to leave.

[akhhorus]

yeah it seems like the best strategy for the skins is to put the ball in coles' court and force him to give or keep him. They need to test and see how much he really wants to leave.

Then this trade talk could be smoke to get Coles to restructure. If we look like we're going to trade him no matter what, he could be persuaded to give up bonus money to get traded to his choice of teams.

[PA Skins Girl]

His salary this year is $1.5 million. His bonus counts 1/7 x $13 million = $1.857. So, he counts $3.357 this year if he stays on the roster.

If we release or trade him, without him giving back any bonus, he counts 5/7 x $13 million = $9.286

So, we would lose $5.929 million of the cap space we've been working so hard to create. How would that make the guys that just restructured feel?