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ItchySkin
02-23-2005, 06:09 PM
On Peirce:I see there's been some discussion on whether or not AP is worth the money. All i can say is that AP has been a great player for the redskins and he is indeed a joe gibbs-type player BUT he is definitely not worth a lot of money. It's really hard for a lot of fans to realize that its really not the players who made our defense so good last year; its the system. If you think about, our defense has suffered the most losses in terms of personnel. We lost Matt Bowen, Philip Daniels, and Mike Barrow early in the season. Then we lost Lavar and Smoot had to sit out a lot of plays because of injuries, etc. But how did we manage to be so good? How in the world can a guy named Garnel Wilds play Randy Moss in man coverage and piss him off so much that he had to leave the stadium? How can guys like your Ade Jimohs and Todd Franz's play so well and not get burned? Two words: GREGG WILLIAMS. The best coaches out there design schemes so that players can maximize their talents and boost their confidence by designing plays that are complex yet, easy for players to execute (kinda like NE system). AP is a smart player, but his intelligence is not worth the investment. Williams system works best when players dont have to think too much but rather, be able to react and locate where the ball is. If I were to invest money in William's system, I would take players who are physically gifted like Kendral Bell (injuries might be a prob.) but he's only 23/24 yrs old and has played with excellent LB corps in pittsburgh. I genuinely like AP but if we lose him, we really havent lost anything...it would be like losing Lavar (though I think he's overrated) but still have a top defense.
On Samuels: It would be very stupid for us to release him. An O-Line is not an easy thing to build. We need his experience playing with Jansen, Dockery, and Thomas. Plus, I really think that this guy can bounce back. He suffered under Spurrier's system and is slowly working his way back...I truly believe he is still a top tackle along with Jansen. Our O-line should have more edge next year.
Our receiving corps: Losing Coles would be a huge blow if we dont have a replacement for him but its not as bad only because Thrash and Jacobs are still around. Jacobs can be deep threat if we give him an opportunity to play (#2 receiver). And I believe we can win with mediocre WRs (just like NE) as long as we perfect our running game, but I have a feeling we would get a veteran wideout like Givens or maybe even Bruce. If we can trade Coles we can probably get John Abraham that should solidify our D-Line (not a bad deal).
The draft: its really hard to tell what we're going to do but I have a feeling we're getting either a WR (most likely in the 2nd rnd) or DE (even if we get Abraham via trade). I wont be surprised if we get a QB and a MLB in the 3rd.
On FA signings: I think all these contract restructuring means there could be a major signing of a premier player. Maybe there's a reason why everyone is restructuring? Chipping in?
This is all i have to say...sorry for such long post.

akhhorus
02-23-2005, 06:12 PM
I dont agree with everything here, but I like to see someone give his opinion not in piecemeal fashion.

And Welcome to HR!

And I can't resist: How's Scratchy?(lol--sorry)

redskin_rich
02-23-2005, 06:16 PM
Good, thought out post, Itchy.
I agree with most of what you are saying. Samuels and Coles are still big questions though and we will have to wait and see with them.
As of yet, we do not have a 2nd round pick, so right now we would likely have to use our 1st on a WR.

chad101
02-23-2005, 06:23 PM
Nice post , One question.
What makes you think the Jets would trade John Abraham for Coles?

I don't understand the Washington media as well as members of this board thinking that is a valid NFL trade.

whitskins
02-23-2005, 06:26 PM
I don't understand the Washington media as well as members of this board thinking that is a valid NFL trade.

It isn't. Nobody should hold their breath for that one...

ItchySkin
02-23-2005, 06:27 PM
http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20050223-122443-5441r.htm
Its only a rumor but all Im saying is that it wouldn't be a bad deal if they would trade JA.

akhhorus
02-23-2005, 06:28 PM
http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20050223-122443-5441r.htm
Its only a rumor but all Im saying is that it wouldn't be a bad deal if they would trade JA.

It would be a great deal, but the odds are slim to none.

whitskins
02-23-2005, 06:29 PM
http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20050223-122443-5441r.htm
Its only a rumor but all Im saying is that it wouldn't be a bad deal if they would trade JA.

I agree it wouldn't be bad for us at all (besides dealing with JA's salary), but the Jets would be foolish to do it. We can probably get a 2nd rounder for him, if we have to settle for less we should just hold on to him I think.

Skinz4lyfe
02-23-2005, 06:30 PM
I agree with some of what you're saying. I've been on Samuels butt for quite sometime. IMO he is good but not near the money we're paying him. He either must restructure or be released!

IMO, we must pick up a good (not great) receiver w/experience if Coles is let go (Ahem Mason and Givens would be a nice place to start). Jacobs is improving and it would be great to get Williams in the draft but you gotta go by the 3 year rule w/receivers. The rule of thumb (especially in Fantasy Football) is that receivers generally "break out" in their 3rd year. There of course are exceptions but that is a general rule of thumb. I think we'll seriously cripple our anemic offense if we don't get a proven receiver to replace Gardner and Coles. Jacobs can be good but he hasn't had the chance to prove his worth.

It would be nice to have Pierce but if he's not taking the money we're offering, then let's roll the dice on Barrow and/or our existing LBs. We gotta do what's best for the franchise and save the cap

chad101
02-23-2005, 06:31 PM
http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20050223-122443-5441r.htm
Its only a rumor but all Im saying is that it wouldn't be a bad deal if they would trade JA.

I understand the article but my point is draft picks(as the article mentions) would also have to be involved that benefit the Jets as Abraham for a unhappy Coles is just never gonna happen straight up.

akhhorus
02-23-2005, 06:31 PM
I agree it wouldn't be bad for us at all (besides dealing with JA's salary), but the Jets would be foolish to do it. We can probably get a 2nd rounder for him, if we have to settle for less we should just hold on to him I think.

I think Coles for Santana Moss and a Conditional pick in 06(based on if Moss resigns with the Skins) is much more realistic. And it wouldn't be a bad deal.

whitskins
02-23-2005, 06:33 PM
I think Coles for Santana Moss and a Conditional pick in 06(based on if Moss resigns with the Skins) is much more realistic. And it wouldn't be a bad deal.

The Jets might be smart to get value for Moss before can demand a massive contract, but their fans would likely go insane. I'd love to have a guy like Moss though, he has some serious wheels.

chad101
02-23-2005, 06:34 PM
I think Coles for Santana Moss and a Conditional pick in 06(based on if Moss resigns with the Skins) is much more realistic. And it wouldn't be a bad deal.

Reasonable but I don't see the Jets adding the pick.

akhhorus
02-23-2005, 06:34 PM
The Jets might be smart to get value for Moss before can demand a massive contract, but their fans would likely go insane. I'd love to have a guy like Moss though, he has some serious wheels.

Not if they were getting Coles in return. I think the Skins should talk to the Jets about it.

redskin_rich
02-23-2005, 06:35 PM
I think Coles for Santana Moss and a Conditional pick in 06(based on if Moss resigns with the Skins) is much more realistic. And it wouldn't be a bad deal.
Maybe we could throw in Morton.

akhhorus
02-23-2005, 06:35 PM
Reasonable but I don't see the Jets adding the pick.

It doesnt have to be a high pick: a 2nd-3rd rounder if he doesnt resign with the Skins; a 5th-6th if he does.

Redskin006
02-23-2005, 07:24 PM
I understand the article but my point is draft picks(as the article mentions) would also have to be involved that benefit the Jets as Abraham for a unhappy Coles is just never gonna happen straight up.

the jets gave him up coles 2 years ago. im pretty sure they didnt want to pay him what he was asking for. so why would they want to get him back and have to pay him a ton of money? i may be wrong, but that's why i dont see the abraham-coles trade happening at all.

IowaSkinsFan
02-23-2005, 07:29 PM
And I can't resist: How's Scratchy?(lol--sorry)

Damn I knew you would beat me to it, I just knew it. I was saying to myself: "Self, I'll bet akhhorus already posted this!"

IowaSkinsFan
02-23-2005, 07:30 PM
On Peirce:I see there's been some discussion on whether or not AP is worth the money. All i can say is that AP has been a great player for the redskins and he is indeed a joe gibbs-type player BUT he is definitely not worth a lot of money. It's really hard for a lot of fans to realize that its really not the players who made our defense so good last year; its the system. If you think about, our defense has suffered the most losses in terms of personnel. We lost Matt Bowen, Philip Daniels, and Mike Barrow early in the season. Then we lost Lavar and Smoot had to sit out a lot of plays because of injuries, etc. But how did we manage to be so good? How in the world can a guy named Garnel Wilds play Randy Moss in man coverage and piss him off so much that he had to leave the stadium? How can guys like your Ade Jimohs and Todd Franz's play so well and not get burned? Two words: GREGG WILLIAMS. The best coaches out there design schemes so that players can maximize their talents and boost their confidence by designing plays that are complex yet, easy for players to execute (kinda like NE system). AP is a smart player, but his intelligence is not worth the investment. Williams system works best when players dont have to think too much but rather, be able to react and locate where the ball is. If I were to invest money in William's system, I would take players who are physically gifted like Kendral Bell (injuries might be a prob.) but he's only 23/24 yrs old and has played with excellent LB corps in pittsburgh. I genuinely like AP but if we lose him, we really havent lost anything...it would be like losing Lavar (though I think he's overrated) but still have a top defense.
On Samuels: It would be very stupid for us to release him. An O-Line is not an easy thing to build. We need his experience playing with Jansen, Dockery, and Thomas. Plus, I really think that this guy can bounce back. He suffered under Spurrier's system and is slowly working his way back...I truly believe he is still a top tackle along with Jansen. Our O-line should have more edge next year.
Our receiving corps: Losing Coles would be a huge blow if we dont have a replacement for him but its not as bad only because Thrash and Jacobs are still around. Jacobs can be deep threat if we give him an opportunity to play (#2 receiver). And I believe we can win with mediocre WRs (just like NE) as long as we perfect our running game, but I have a feeling we would get a veteran wideout like Givens or maybe even Bruce. If we can trade Coles we can probably get John Abraham that should solidify our D-Line (not a bad deal).
The draft: its really hard to tell what we're going to do but I have a feeling we're getting either a WR (most likely in the 2nd rnd) or DE (even if we get Abraham via trade). I wont be surprised if we get a QB and a MLB in the 3rd.
On FA signings: I think all these contract restructuring means there could be a major signing of a premier player. Maybe there's a reason why everyone is restructuring? Chipping in?
This is all i have to say...sorry for such long post.

My thoughts on Pierce are that GW made him, he can replace him. Clifton Smith, Khary Campbell, Barrow may return?

It would be nice to get him back, but I wouldn't break the bank to get him.

cmdlost29
02-23-2005, 07:52 PM
I think Coles for Santana Moss and a Conditional pick in 06(based on if Moss resigns with the Skins) is much more realistic. And it wouldn't be a bad deal.

Dude Moss? Are you Serious? I highly doubt the Jets give us Santana Moss for L. Coles straight up, let alone give us a draft pick as well! SM is all they got back there besides McCarrins and without Moss to stretch the feild then Coles routes will be crap. Coles doesn't have the speed to outrun D's like Moss can do, I don't think any Redskins fans should be banking on this deal. If we could trade Coles for Moss straight up I'd do it in a heartbeat personally. And Abraham isn't coming here, too pricey for us and the Jet's won't get a good enough return on that deal. I believe part of this talk with the Jet's has to do with the fact we raided them like we did. They want some payback on us big time.

Coles should be going to Baltimore or Atlanta. They are both dying for a reciever and only Mason and Burress are left with Moss and Porter taken off the board already. Rather see him go to the Ravens as they are in the AFC. Send him up there for a 2nd and a 6th round pick and I think we did good. If we send him away we must draft a WR and also land a FA (Mason or Husmanzaddeh). I'm sorry but if we think now that Jacobs who was Spurriors biy wasn't good enough to play for Steve when he was here and Thrash who couldn't make play for the Eagles when they had NOBODY is going to be good enough with one rookie, we are in deep deep trouble

akhhorus
02-23-2005, 07:58 PM
Dude Moss? Are you Serious? I highly doubt the Jets give us Santana Moss for L. Coles straight up, let alone give us a draft pick as well! SM is all they got back there besides McCarrins and without Moss to stretch the feild then Coles routes will be crap. Coles doesn't have the speed to outrun D's like Moss can do, I don't think any Redskins fans should be banking on this deal. If we could trade Coles for Moss straight up I'd do it in a heartbeat personally. And Abraham isn't coming here, too pricey for us and the Jet's won't get a good enough return on that deal. I believe part of this talk with the Jet's has to do with the fact we raided them like we did. They want some payback on us big time.

Coles should be going to Baltimore or Atlanta. They are both dying for a reciever and only Mason and Burress are left with Moss and Porter taken off the board already. Rather see him go to the Ravens as they are in the AFC. Send him up there for a 2nd and a 6th round pick and I think we did good. If we send him away we must draft a WR and also land a FA (Mason or Husmanzaddeh). I'm sorry but if we think now that Jacobs who was Spurriors biy wasn't good enough to play for Steve when he was here and Thrash who couldn't make play for the Eagles when they had NOBODY is going to be good enough with one rookie, we are in deep deep trouble

1-I am spitballing here with this idea. I havent heard anything to back this up.
2-The funniest part is how you think Coles doesnt have speed.
3-And if we go through with youre plan to resign Pierce and Smoot, we'll be lucky to have Thrash and Jacobs as our WRs.

cmdlost29
02-23-2005, 08:21 PM
1-I am spitballing here with this idea. I havent heard anything to back this up.
2-The funniest part is how you think Coles doesnt have speed.
3-And if we go through with youre plan to resign Pierce and Smoot, we'll be lucky to have Thrash and Jacobs as our WRs.

1 - Your dreaming talking about Moss for Coles, I was pointing out the obvious

2 - If Coles had speed like Moss then he'd have broke plays open like Moss did. With his bumm toe he'll never get to plant and show the speed he does have. I never said he was slow but that toe hurts him a lot

3 - This to me is halarious. If we resigned Smoot and Pierce, were not putting 75% of the cap into them. Can you get real please? Thrash, Jacobs, McCants, Garder, and Coles are all signed though next season, tell me honestly why you would say we'd lose Jacobs and Thrash to resign those two? We could sit on Gardner and make him a Redskin next season, same with Coles. And Coles has been on the record saying if he isn't released or traded he'd still play here. What is your deal?

joethefan
02-23-2005, 08:26 PM
Itchy .... I appreciate your post. I agree with some and disagree with others, but all and all, I can appreciate your tought process..welcome to the family.

akhhorus
02-23-2005, 08:33 PM
1 - Your dreaming talking about Moss for Coles, I was pointing out the obvious

2 - If Coles had speed like Moss then he'd have broke plays open like Moss did. With his bumm toe he'll never get to plant and show the speed he does have. I never said he was slow but that toe hurts him a lot

3 - This to me is halarious. If we resigned Smoot and Pierce, were not putting 75% of the cap into them. Can you get real please? Thrash, Jacobs, McCants, Garder, and Coles are all signed though next season, tell me honestly why you would say we'd lose Jacobs and Thrash to resign those two? We could sit on Gardner and make him a Redskin next season, same with Coles. And Coles has been on the record saying if he isn't released or traded he'd still play here. What is your deal?

1- "You're", not "Your". And its no different than any idea.
2-Coles is still faster than Moss. Always has been.
3- "hilarious". Smoot is asking for a 14 million dollar bonus over 7 years. Pierce is looking for a 7 million dollar bonus over 6 years. Thats 3+ million of bonuses+ another 750,000 each in base salary. So thats nearly 5 million when the Skins have 6 million in cap room. Do some basic math.
And Thrash is not signed, he's UFA.

akhhorus
02-23-2005, 08:33 PM
1 - Your dreaming talking about Moss for Coles, I was pointing out the obvious

2 - If Coles had speed like Moss then he'd have broke plays open like Moss did. With his bumm toe he'll never get to plant and show the speed he does have. I never said he was slow but that toe hurts him a lot

3 - This to me is halarious. If we resigned Smoot and Pierce, were not putting 75% of the cap into them. Can you get real please? Thrash, Jacobs, McCants, Garder, and Coles are all signed though next season, tell me honestly why you would say we'd lose Jacobs and Thrash to resign those two? We could sit on Gardner and make him a Redskin next season, same with Coles. And Coles has been on the record saying if he isn't released or traded he'd still play here. What is your deal?

1- "You're", not "Your". And its no different than any idea.
2-Coles is still faster than Moss. Always has been.
3- "hilarious". Smoot is asking for a 14 million dollar bonus over 7 years. Pierce is looking for a 7 million dollar bonus over 6 years. Thats 3+ million of bonuses+ another 750,000 each in base salary. So thats nearly 5 million when the Skins have 6 million in cap room. Do some basic math.
And Thrash is not signed, he's UFA.

And I havent heard Coles say that he will play here if he isnt cut/traded. Did Coles come to you in your sleep and tell you?

NCskinsfanatic
02-23-2005, 08:41 PM
Maybe we could throw in Morton.
LMAO yeah and the judges season tickets that awarded him to us :rolleyes: !
But we still get to keep Hall and Thomas...right?

bwparker
02-23-2005, 09:16 PM
On FA signings:[/B] I think all these contract restructuring means there could be a major signing of a premier player. Maybe there's a reason why everyone is restructuring? Chipping in?
This is all i have to say...sorry for such long post.

I think this is a really interesting and original point. At least I hadn't heard it yet. I'd been thinking something big was brewing, this idea lends some credence to it...

chrisbcbu
02-23-2005, 09:21 PM
And Thrash is not signed, he's UFA.

And I havent heard Coles say that he will play here if he isnt cut/traded. Did Coles come to you in your sleep and tell you?

Actually Thrash is signed until 2008, and Coles did say he would play if he wasnt cut. Or at least im sure i read that somewhere as well.

cmdlost29
02-23-2005, 09:21 PM
1- "You're", not "Your". And its no different than any idea.
2-Coles is still faster than Moss. Always has been.
3- "hilarious". Smoot is asking for a 14 million dollar bonus over 7 years. Pierce is looking for a 7 million dollar bonus over 6 years. Thats 3+ million of bonuses+ another 750,000 each in base salary. So thats nearly 5 million when the Skins have 6 million in cap room. Do some basic math.
And Thrash is not signed, he's UFA.

And I havent heard Coles say that he will play here if he isnt cut/traded. Did Coles come to you in your sleep and tell you?

Well you got me on my spelling dude, I'll give you that one, sorry it bothered you so much.

As for Coles being faster then Moss, when they came out of college sure but not now, not a chance. Coles has lost some of his speed with that toe, it's evident in his cuts and runs. If he were 100% healthy he'd burn Moss. Coles posted a 4.17, 40 time when he was healthy. Moss posted a slower time. But were not back in 2000, and Coles isn't the same player he was today that he was back then. If he was then we'd not be having this conversation and he'd have broken some plays last season.

As for your basic math comment, your ignoring the fact that our cap is so tied up in the contract of Samuals. If that gets restructured then you've got room to play with. And if that didn't work out then cut some players we don't need (Barrow and Morton are two that come to mind) and you'll free up more money. Your still believing this is an impossibility when in fact it could easily get done. Without some tweaking it would eat up alot of cap space sure but it could be done and should be done.

As for the comment about me dreaming, well I'll back that one up with something I read:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45510-2005Feb22.html

"Coles's contract does not expire until 2010, which means the team can force him to return. And according to one teammate with knowledge of the situation, Coles has said he would return -- and play hard -- if necessary"

akhhorus
02-23-2005, 09:22 PM
Actually Thrash is signed until 2008, and Coles did say he would play if he wasnt cut. Or at least im sure i read that somewhere as well.

Unless he signed an extention I didnt hear about, he's a UFA.

chrisbcbu
02-23-2005, 09:24 PM
Unless he signed an extention I didnt hear about, he's a UFA.

http://redskins.scout.com/3/contractdetails.html

He signed a new contract when the redskins got him from Philly.

akhhorus
02-23-2005, 09:25 PM
As for your basic math comment, your ignoring the fact that our cap is so tied up in the contract of Samuals. If that gets restructured then you've got room to play with. And if that didn't work out then cut some players we don't need (Barrow and Morton are two that come to mind) and you'll free up more money. Your still believing this is an impossibility when in fact it could easily get done. Without some tweaking it would eat up alot of cap space sure but it could be done and should be done.

When/if he gets restructed or cut or traded, they you would be right. But its moot, Pierce and Smoot are gone.

As for the comment about me dreaming, well I'll back that one up with something I read:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45510-2005Feb22.html

"Coles's contract does not expire until 2010, which means the team can force him to return. And according to one teammate with knowledge of the situation, Coles has said he would return -- and play hard -- if necessary"

Thanks for the quote, I didnt see that.

akhhorus
02-23-2005, 09:26 PM
http://redskins.scout.com/3/contractdetails.html

He signed a new contract when the redskins got him from Philly.

How come everyone has him listed as a UFA?

chrisbcbu
02-23-2005, 09:30 PM
How come everyone has him listed as a UFA?

Some sites have him listed as one, but others dont. I dont understand it as well.

chrisbcbu
02-23-2005, 10:06 PM
I looked on NFLPA just to be sure and they say the Skins have James Thrash until 2008.

http://www.nflpa.org/Members/playerProfile.asp?ID=25265