Well, this is one way to view the Redskins offseason so far.....

[Redskinfan28]

www.czabe.com

Gibbs Making Eyebrow Raising Moves - 03/07/05
More Churn and Burn
Even though I knew it was coming, I can’t begin to describe just how pissed off I am as a Redskin fan about the Coles for Moss deal that (did) finally go down over the weekend. Here’s the shorthand on the deal, which is all that really matters. We paid a player $3 million more than even he wanted to “steal” him from the Jets at the cost of a first round pick. A full $13 million in bonus money later, we trade him for a LESS productive, less physical, less everything player in Santana Moss. We take a massive cap HIT, to DOWNGRADE at wideout. A position, by the way, where the Skins remain OVER-stocked. A team, by the way, that throws to H-backs and runs first, and then worries about using WR’s later. (Which is why Gardner and Coles both wanted out. Coles got his, Gardner’s exit is coming). It is, excuse my French, f***ing AMATUER HOUR at Redskins Park these days when it comes to (mis)managing the salary cap. I thought that when we rented Jeremiah Trotter from the Eagles for two years only to see him re-sign with his old team for much less – and to be very productive - was a painful movie I would at least not have to watch again. I guess I was wrong. Combine this jackass stunt with the needless signing of career #3 wideout David Patten ($3.5 million bonus) and the sudden penny pinching attitudes about Antonio Pierce (gone) and Fred Smoot (about to be gone), and never thought there would be a worse free agency season than the Jeff George/Bruce Smith/Deion Sanders off-season. We now know, that Redskin stupidity works both ways. Grab a Snickers, Skins fans. We ain’t goin’ anywhere for a while.

I am kind of torn. Aside from being a jerk, is he wrong about this? If so, why?

[SusQhnnaSkin]

Keep the faith #28. Love your passion for our team, but I don't think it's quite that bad. LC cap hit aside, I actually like the way the FO is taking care of business this time. Trust in Joe, man!

[bwparker]

Yes, we took a cap hit this year, but get a cap BREAK next year for the Coles deal. Whether Gardner wants out or not is irrelevant, because he sucks. I think Trotter is over rated, he stuffs the middle that is ALL.(Thats all philly needs so thats peachy for them). David Patten is a good speed reciever who will get solid production out of and will be a great locker room presence, and we didn't over pay him.

Penny Pinching with Smoot and Pierce is NOT a bad move its a good move.

This guys just wants to bitch. If we had done nothing with our wideout and had paid Smoot and Pierce what they wanted his article would have read like this:

OMFG, the Skins totally overpaid for FA, AGAIN. And they didn't address their worst area last year, WR. They r, like, so dumb.

This off season, in my opinion, is riddled with smart moves and savy comprimise. Not everything is perfect, but we have made good sound choices and given ourself a future to look forward too AFTER next season.

[bgforever]

Keep the faith #28. Love your passion for our team, but I don't think it's quite that bad. LC cap hit aside, I actually like the way the FO is taking care of business this time. Trust in Joe, man!

Yes, trust in Joe. He re-signed Sellers today and that is a HUGE plus in depth at either TE or FB, because for short yardage WITH PORTIS in the backfield and with 3 WR set, or 2 or even 1, he's familiar with the offense!

I forgot, add to that we WILL sign a WR, DE and this has success all over it.
The off season isn't over and neither is our dealing. In one of my post, it clearly shows we are in a positive position for the first time in YEARS to have so much youth and big play makers at the same time. Witness that Baltimore immediately signed Rolle, because Billick knows teams like Washington are going to be more than fit to handle any range of passing. Ditto for Dallas loading up on pass D.

[SusQhnnaSkin]

BWP- love the pic of Williams giving what looks like an atomic elbow drop!

[Redskinfan28]

Keep the faith #28. Love your passion for our team, but I don't think it's quite that bad. LC cap hit aside, I actually like the way the FO is taking care of business this time. Trust in Joe, man!

I guess you are not a local. These are not my rantings. They belong to a local sports radio personality, Steve Czaban (sp). I just want to see if people agree with his assessment of the offseason but were just afraid to say so. Other than the Rabach signing, I think its been a poor offseason. Not ready to throw in the towel though.

[Kope65]

The single and most important thing needed to win in the NFL is unity in the lockeroom. If the players believe in one another and the coaching staff- they - will - win. Period. that is how Pittsburgh wins, and yes that is how the Pats win.

You need talent, yes...but unless it is unified and given a common direction and focused it is wasted except for highlight clips and media controversy - Vikes and Raiders come to mind.

The only thing I am worried about is if Moss will buy into what Gibbs is selling (I think Patton will). If he does then I think we won this trade hands down.

2 Skins players gave quotes that make me believe we have turned the corner- If he doesn't want to be here then good riddance- about Coles.

IMHO Gibbs is almost done with the really hard work- molding TEAM. I cannot overstate how important the character the team showed last year by not quitting. That was the first step ...we have a ways to go, but have no doubt, the corner was turned.

[smoak]

www.czabe.com

Gibbs Making Eyebrow Raising Moves - 03/07/05
More Churn and Burn
Even though I knew it was coming, I can’t begin to describe just how pissed off I am as a Redskin fan about the Coles for Moss deal that (did) finally go down over the weekend. Here’s the shorthand on the deal, which is all that really matters. We paid a player $3 million more than even he wanted to “steal” him from the Jets at the cost of a first round pick. A full $13 million in bonus money later, we trade him for a LESS productive, less physical, less everything player in Santana Moss. We take a massive cap HIT, to DOWNGRADE at wideout. A position, by the way, where the Skins remain OVER-stocked. A team, by the way, that throws to H-backs and runs first, and then worries about using WR’s later. (Which is why Gardner and Coles both wanted out. Coles got his, Gardner’s exit is coming). It is, excuse my French, f***ing AMATUER HOUR at Redskins Park these days when it comes to (mis)managing the salary cap. I thought that when we rented Jeremiah Trotter from the Eagles for two years only to see him re-sign with his old team for much less – and to be very productive - was a painful movie I would at least not have to watch again. I guess I was wrong. Combine this jackass stunt with the needless signing of career #3 wideout David Patten ($3.5 million bonus) and the sudden penny pinching attitudes about Antonio Pierce (gone) and Fred Smoot (about to be gone), and never thought there would be a worse free agency season than the Jeff George/Bruce Smith/Deion Sanders off-season. We now know, that Redskin stupidity works both ways. Grab a Snickers, Skins fans. We ain’t goin’ anywhere for a while.

I am kind of torn. Aside from being a jerk, is he wrong about this? If so, why?

Don't have time to get into all the specifics now (I'm tired and 5:30 comes early). However I will point out that all your complaints were problems made BG (before Gibbs) and the decisions you are not happy with AG are directly impacted by the garbage that took place before he got here.

Yes, Coles was a bad signing. Trotter was worse... But Gibbs has to try and field a wininng team while fixing the sins of the past. We'll see I suppose, but I really like our offseason except for the Moss trade and that was forced because Coles has no heart.

[whitskins]

The cap hit sucks but we bite the bullet this year and get rid of a guy who would end up being the most overpaid possession receiver in the NFL. It hurts but Coles wasn't going to do much more for us than he did this year, management decided he wasn't worth the rest of his contract.

If we draft well again this year we will field a superior team to last year.

[bgforever]

The single and most important thing needed to win in the NFL is unity in the lockeroom. If the players believe in one another and the coaching staff- they - will - win. Period. that is how Pittsburgh wins, and yes that is how the Pats win.

You need talent, yes...but unless it is unified and given a common direction and focused it is wasted except for highlight clips and media controversy - Vikes and Raiders come to mind.

The only thing I am worried about is if Moss will buy into what Gibbs is selling (I think Patton will). If he does then I think we won this trade hands down.

2 Skins players gave quotes that make me believe we have turned the corner- If he doesn't want to be here then good riddance- about Coles.

IMHO Gibbs is almost done with the really hard work- molding TEAM. I cannot overstate how important the character the team showed last year by not quitting. That was the first step ...we have a ways to go, but have no doubt, the corner was turned.

As short as it is, outstanding post. Patton recognized the terminology and terms Gibbs was speaking. Not just his pay, he recognize the similar voice in none other than Belichick.

[BandWagon]

Ok that's hypotrical...in the same breath he slams us for signing Trotter and letting him go back to Philly for less, but then hits us for not resigning Pierce????

Sounds like the way Philly handled Trotter to me!

So let's make sure I get this right. It was wrong for Philly to let Trotter go for "pinching pennies"...oh wait we're not talking about Philly are we? Silly me, just trying to put the shoe on the other foot. I should know better than that. Bad Redskins, SHAME, SHAME....

[Keino]

As much as I hate Czaben, he is 100% correct in his assessment of the Coles for Moss trade. It sucks. We take a huge cap hit, get a lesser player and no draft picks out of the deal. I reserved my comments until it actually happenned and I saw the details. When I heard it was player for player straight up, I was tempted to drive to Ashburn, VA to voice my displeasure. Im amazed so many here are putting positive spin on this deal. It's horrible.

The rest of his rant is moronic. Last season Gibbs turned over most of the roster with signings that for the most part addressed immediate needs. This year, hardly any roster turnover and more needs are addressed. I couldn't disagree with him more about the Patten signing which was fiscally responsible and a good charcter signing. I firmly believe that Patten will be a stabalizing force for our WR corps. Experience and ethic he brings to the table is the kind of integrity and stabilizing presence we need on this team.

Czaben is one of the many fans that Kenny is writing about in the latest Funky Take. He wants it both ways. If we don't spend the money, he blames the ownership and if we do he blames the ownership. He refuses to goto the stadium, citing the experience, but has never experienced the experience.

[SusQhnnaSkin]

I guess you are not a local. These are not my rantings. They belong to a local sports radio personality, Steve Czaban (sp). I just want to see if people agree with his assessment of the offseason but were just afraid to say so. Other than the Rabach signing, I think its been a poor offseason. Not ready to throw in the towel though.

Sorry #28, my bad. (no, not a local) No I don't agree w/ his assessment. I believe Gibbs is in control of this ship which is exacty what I want.

[Davey]

My thoughts:

Pierce-hate to see him go, but if we'd matched NY's offer we'd have way too much invested in our linebackers.

Trotter-that mistake was made three years ago.

Coles-I don't think it was a mistake to sign Coles or to trade him. Yes the Redskins got hosed overall, but that's what happens when you change coaches. You have to adjust and those adjustments don't always look good on paper.

[SusQhnnaSkin]

My thoughts:

Pierce-hate to see him go, but if we'd matched NY's offer we'd have way too much invested in our linebackers.

Trotter-that mistake was made three years ago.

Coles-I don't think it was a mistake to sign Coles or to trade him. Yes the Redskins got hosed overall, but that's what happens when you change coaches. You have to adjust and those adjustments don't always look good on paper.

Excellent post. 100% agree

[COUNCILMAN]

CZABAN is partially correct. But he is incorrect...actually waaaaay off base about Moss. How can anybody say that Moss is not a threat to take it in from anywhere on the field. Who cares if he catches 45 passes. Coles caught 90 balls but nobody who covered him backed off of the line of scrimmage more than 5 yards because they weren't afraid of him beating them deep.

At least with Moss...he might only catch 10 balls this year but everytime he lines up the corner will be 10 yards off the line and the safety will be back there with him.

Moss is basically Bob Hayes. He won't catch 80 passes....Hayes never did either. But he struck fear into the defense and kept them backing up all the time.

[colkurtz]

This radio guy calls Gibbs & Williams & Bugel - "amateur hour"? Ask him to talk about the SB rings he has earned sitting on his butt ranting into the radio.

Coles - Moss trade was not a great deal for the Redskins. However, we won't know who got the better part of this trade until the end of this next season. This may turn out to be a boon for the 'skins.

What I do know is that Coles DID NOT WANT TO PLAY HERE ANYMORE! He had an injured toe that he refused to get surgury on, effecting his speed. For all his talent, he still dropped 6 balls in one game. In the end, you simply have got to get rid of malcontent players.

Philly regulary dumps players who get too old, too expensive, too big-headed. No one says a word. Their defense is always good (due to Def Coordinator J. Johnson). Now the Redskins are learning from that book. The team will be better for these moves and restraint. Let the naysayers continue to cast spears. The Redskins are doomed to poor press until they start winning.

[War Hogg]

Czban is partially right and partially just pissed-off
The Coles-Moss man for man deal was terrible. Coles let us know that he didnt want to be here at the last meeting of the season and we should have immediatley been shopping him to ensure that he was traded before the deadline. What did we do.....D!@#ing around playing hardball like we were gonna keep him when we should have been seriously shopping him. Then we say we arent taking anything less than a couple 1st round picks, then turn around and trade him straight up for a less productive player and take a cap hit! Many of the decisions made by the FO look unthought out and desperate.

A couple more things that make me wonder what the "H" is gong on...

The deal that should have been a straight up trade (Bailey for Portis) shouldnt have cost us this years 2nd round pick.

Now we have given Gardner permission to seek a trade when we should be aggressively seeking a trade for him...

The worst offseason move made in the LAST DECADE was Gibbs bringing Brunell here.


David Patten is not a impact player and is no better than James Thrash and he will not change the culture of our locker room just because he's been to the superbowl lately. Has anyone asked the question of why they let him go so easily.

Bottom line is.... Just because we sign a bunch of subpar, low salary, so-called character players doesnt mean we automatically start winning games.

[akhhorus]

I had to take issue with some of these statements

Czban is partially right and partially just pissed-off
The Coles-Moss man for man deal was terrible. Coles let us know that he didnt want to be here at the last meeting of the season and we should have immediatley been shopping him to ensure that he was traded before the deadline. What did we do.....D!@#ing around playing hardball like we were gonna keep him when we should have been seriously shopping him. Then we say we arent taking anything less than a couple 1st round picks, then turn around and trade him straight up for a less productive player and take a cap hit! Many of the decisions made by the FO look unthought out and desperate.

Yes, it is a cap hit this year--BUT THE SKINS SAVE A TON OF CAP ROOM IN THHE YEARS TO COME. Considing Coles' toe, no-one will give more than a mid-first for him.


A couple more things that make me wonder what the "H" is gong on...

The deal that should have been a straight up trade (Bailey for Portis) shouldnt have cost us this years 2nd round pick.

yeah, because that has worked out so well from the Broncos. Portis, despite being the team's only consistant offensive weapon and facing stacked run defense still had over 1300 yards.

Now we have given Gardner permission to seek a trade when we should be aggressively seeking a trade for him...

You assume they arent. It seems like they are close to a deal.


The worst offseason move made in the LAST DECADE was Gibbs bringing Brunell here.

I suggest you examine the FA signings by guys like Casserly and Norv before you say something like this. The Brunell move is a lowly little monk compared to the Dahlai Lama-esqueness of moves like:
-Drafting Heath Shuler
-Drafting Michael Westbrook
-Deion
-The Redskins drafts from 1994-1998: out of 36 picks came one decent player-Stephan Davis
-Free agent bust after Free agent bust after Free agent bust.

Facts elude you

David Patten is not a impact player and is no better than James Thrash and he will not change the culture of our locker room just because he's been to the superbowl lately. Has anyone asked the question of why they let him go so easily.

Thrash last 3 years: 48 games/36 starts 118 catches 1396 yards 7 tds
Patten last 3 years: 38 games/30 starts 114 catches 1764 yards 12 tds
Thrash is a #4 at best, Patten contributes. You are fooling yourself if you think Patten wont contribute. They let him go because they want to clear the path for guys liike Deion Branch, David Givens and Bethel Johnson. Patten, they would have kept if he wasnt a UFA, but they have emerging talent. But feel free to keep beleiving that the Pats thought he was a stiff.

Bottom line is.... Just because we sign a bunch of subpar, low salary, so-called character players doesnt mean we automatically start winning games.

Yeah, lets go back to signing high priced talent. That made more sense.

GET A GRIP. If you want to jump ship on the skins, go ahead--dont blather on with bad facts and sketchy opinions and pied piper others into your lemming hole.

[War Hogg]

I had to take issue with some of these statements



Yes, it is a cap hit this year--BUT THE SKINS SAVE A TON OF CAP ROOM IN THHE YEARS TO COME. Considing Coles' toe, no-one will give more than a mid-first for him.




yeah, because that has worked out so well from the Broncos. Portis, despite being the team's only consistant offensive weapon and facing stacked run defense still had over 1300 yards.



You assume they arent. It seems like they are close to a deal.




I suggest you examine the FA signings by guys like Casserly and Norv before you say something like this. The Brunell move is a lowly little monk compared to the Dahlai Lama-esqueness of moves like:
-Drafting Heath Shuler
-Drafting Michael Westbrook
-Deion
-The Redskins drafts from 1994-1998: out of 36 picks came one decent player-Stephan Davis
-Free agent bust after Free agent bust after Free agent bust.

Facts elude you



Thrash last 3 years: 48 games/36 starts 118 catches 1396 yards 7 tds
Patten last 3 years: 38 games/30 starts 114 catches 1764 yards 12 tds
Thrash is a #4 at best, Patten contributes. You are fooling yourself if you think Patten wont contribute. They let him go because they want to clear the path for guys liike Deion Branch, David Givens and Bethel Johnson. Patten, they would have kept if he wasnt a UFA, but they have emerging talent. But feel free to keep beleiving that the Pats thought he was a stiff.



Yeah, lets go back to signing high priced talent. That made more sense.

GET A GRIP. If you want to jump ship on the skins, go ahead--dont blather on with bad facts and sketchy opinions and pied piper others into your lemming hole.

First thing....I dont drink the KOOLAid (Jim Jones story...look it up) I believe Gibbs will finally adapt and become a winner again but Im not a blind brainless follower...He has made a few mistakes in his one year back and miscalculated some things and im not blind to that. I will be a redskins fan 10 years AFTER GIBBS RETIRES FOR THE SECOND TIME!

#1 Fact, we looked extremely desperate taking Moss in a straight up deal when there are plenty of other teams out there that were (and still are) looking for receivers. Why did we not demand a draft pick with the player like the Broncos did in the Champ-Portis deal. At least in the Broncos deal you could say that they played opposite sides of the ball so thier values couldnt be properly compared...But look at the Coles_Moss deal....Same position, but a clear difference in player potential...When these type of things happen constantly It should make you wonder who the hell is working these deals...

Another thing, You will never hear another word about Coles toe...

#2 Who is close to a deal with Gardner?, and if this true, I would be very surprised One)if anything happens in the next 30 days.... 2) if we get anything worthwhile out of his trade.

#3 I will start a poll and bet large sums of money that the concensus is that Brunells signing is the worst deal in 10 years..NFL WIDE!

#4 Stats dont always tell the whole story. Patten will contribute, hopefully. But dont get it twisted Patten is no upgrade to Thrash no matter what the stats say... 1) You are comparing numbers of one reciever who had a quarterback who has won 2 SB MVP's and SPECIALIZES in spreading the ball around TO a receiver who's QB is barely above average IMO.

come on now AK, I didnt take you to be the follower type...Put the koolaid down my friend...

[Kope65]

I dont care who is a # what reciever. How many really great skins were high round draft picks? Let me list some high round meadia loved players the skins aquired: Dave Butz, Neil Okelwitz, Joe Jacoby etc....Oh wait they weren't......they were charachter guys.

hmmm that kind of explains this off season to me.

[saviour]

Taking a cap hit of this nature when there are still team needs to be filled just looks rushed and appears to not be well thought in my opinion. You have to get something other than a equal player at best in this deal if you are going to essentially lose 7 million dollars to complete a deal. A draft pick, a rarely used bench player, anything just to make the deal appear worthwhile. It just looks like the Jets took advantage of an inexperienced FO. Just like the Broncos took advantage of us, as well as the Jags. Everyone in the world knew that the Jags were going to release Brunell and we traded for him and signed him to a big money deal to supplant the up and coming young, strong armed Ramsey. What happens, Brunell proved what the Jags predicted, that he was washed up and Ramsey outperforms him to get his job back.

Because of this cap hit, Smoot is definately a goner now and everyone is going to say that he left for the money even though we can't sign him even if we wanted to. Wynn will get released, Ray Brown probably wont get resigned and I am sure that other players will be affected as well. Patten does not need to be here with all of the recievers we have now as he is just more of the same. You just wonder if Jacobs will ever get on the field becuase even with all of the praise the coaches give him they keep putting people in front of him. Last year it was Thrash, now its Patten. We need a tightend and Pollard signed for 6 million over 3 years. Hopefully this means that Royal and Cooley will have huge seasons as none of our recievers are not possesion guys. Maybe if McCants can get out of the doghouse he can become that guy or if they draft Mike Williams he can fill that role. Even though signing Williams will be a problem as he will cause other players to be cut. I know it's early in the off season but I am concerned.

Why didn't Gibbs force Coles to stay like he did with Ramsey last year? If it didn't work out you trade him next season when your cap hit will be signifigantly less.

I have been a SKins fan for over 18 years and I am going to be one until I die but it is frustrating to see moves like this. I will not close my eyes and tell myself that I am eating cake when I know I was served soup.

[redwolf1218]

I have been a SKins fan for over 18 years and I am going to be one until I die but it is frustrating to see moves like this. I will not close my eyes and tell myself that I am eating cake when I know I was served soup.
i like that cliche. i also like "dont piss down my back and tell me it's raining" -Fletcher, The Outlaw Josie Wales...but anyway, i've been a Redskins fan for over 30 years and i am trying to remember when i've felt like this...i'm not sure how to describe it, it's a mixture of good and bad, and i'm resigned to hoping the good out-weighs the bad. Getting Rabach was awesome...SOUP IS GOOD FOR YOU. but i tend to agree a little bit at least...restructuring a bunch of guys to cover a dead money cap hit, replacing Coles and Gardner with S. Moss and Patten...i would not be surprised if neither of these guys even start for us...any combination of Moss, Patten, Thrash and Jacobs is not going to scare anyone. sometimes you have to take a step back, regroup, and then take steps forward. i think we are in that process.

[chad101]

Don't have time to get into all the specifics now (I'm tired and 5:30 comes early). However I will point out that all your complaints were problems made BG (before Gibbs) and the decisions you are not happy with AG are directly impacted by the garbage that took place before he got here.

Yes, Coles was a bad signing. Trotter was worse... But Gibbs has to try and field a wininng team while fixing the sins of the past. We'll see I suppose, but I really like our offseason except for the Moss trade and that was forced because Coles has no heart.

Hello....Gibbs is responsible for Brunell being in Washington.
He is also responsible for the WR's questioning the offense.

[MoeRedskins]

Czabe is half right, half wrong. One major issue that letting go of both Smoot and Pierce. That is going to hurt the Skins. You really can't let two starters from your defense go, especially if they are the two most important positions in the scheme. I would have told coles to shut up and play. He bitched about not going downfield, but hey, give it a year. Sorry your love buddy Spurrier isnt' here any more to console you when your feelings get hurt. Moss is not an upgrade, but he sure isn't a huge drop off. And besides, if this does turn around Czaban will be tooting another tune of how great a move that is. They guy lives on shocking and making wild statements. All we really know from this offseason is that it is going to take a little longer then we thought to get this ship in the right direction.

[smoak]

If you want to jump ship on the skins, go ahead--dont blather on with bad facts and sketchy opinions and pied piper others into your lemming hole.

Great point. I think the nay-sayers are quicker to spread the disease of doubt and negativity without being able to figure why they feel that way.

I'll remain cautiously optimistic.

[dj_stouty]

Czaban was right about the Coles/Moss deal stinking in terms of financial stipulations. He was also right about the Trotter "mistake". Too bad mulligans don't exist in the NFL...

However he is wrong about Moss. When given the opportunity, he has been a fairly decent performer. Look at 2003, when he was the #1 WR, and racked up 1,100 yards and 10 TDs. (When was the last time a Redskin receiver put up 10 TDs? Gary Clark...14 years ago)

Regardless...Czabe got the reaction he wanted. ;)

[smoak]

Hello....Gibbs is responsible for Brunell being in Washington.
He is also responsible for the WR's questioning the offense.

For the last time.

Bringing Brunell to DC was not a mistake at the time we signed. the only thing ANYONE could scoff at was the SB being a bit high. We needed a veteran QB and the market was slim. I'll still today go with Brunell over Vinny or Garcia. Other teams were reportedly interested in Brunell and the fact that he didn't perform at all could not have predicted. Just stop the insanity.

And don't get me started on the no heart pansy %&*$ WRs. You blame Gibbs because some jerk wants to whine after being the third most thrown to WR in the league??? The guy has no heart and should have apologized to the team for his attitude and drops.

Gibbs isn't perfect, but he has done a great job rebuilding the team. We had NO horses in the defensive stable and he brought in Williams, Griffin, Piere (re-signed), Washington, Taylor, and Springs.

[dj_stouty]

For the last time.

Don't bother reasoning with him about Quarterbacks...He probably forgot that the Jets were the only team to show an interest in and sign Quincy Carter last year...

[Spence]

What Steve Czaban does not know about football is a lot. David Patten was an excellent signing and his bonus is small. Antonio Pierce would have given the Skins three very expensive linebackers. No team can afford that. The Skins didn't do a good job in the Moss-Coles trade.

[akhhorus]

First thing....I dont drink the KOOLAid (Jim Jones story...look it up) I believe Gibbs will finally adapt and become a winner again but Im not a blind brainless follower...He has made a few mistakes in his one year back and miscalculated some things and im not blind to that. I will be a redskins fan 10 years AFTER GIBBS RETIRES FOR THE SECOND TIME!

Do yourself a favor, dont assume that there is history I dont know



#1 Fact, we looked extremely desperate taking Moss in a straight up deal when there are plenty of other teams out there that were (and still are) looking for receivers. Why did we not demand a draft pick with the player like the Broncos did in the Champ-Portis deal. At least in the Broncos deal you could say that they played opposite sides of the ball so thier values couldnt be properly compared...But look at the Coles_Moss deal....Same position, but a clear difference in player potential...When these type of things happen constantly It should make you wonder who the hell is working these deals...

You are making two huge assumptions:
1-That teams offered more in value than Santana Moss--YOU DO NOT KNOW IF THEY DID ARE NOT. And absense of fact do not prove your point
2-You're also assuming that the skins got a better offer for Bailey. The Skins made out pretty well in that deal.

Another thing, You will never hear another word about Coles toe...

Because the Skins didnt want to mention it while trade talks were going on, and the Jets dont want to mention in now. They will.

#2 Who is close to a deal with Gardner?, and if this true, I would be very surprised One)if anything happens in the next 30 days.... 2) if we get anything worthwhile out of his trade.

Do you even pay attention? A couple months ago, Tampa was negotiating for him and Minnesota has been talking about him with the skins

#3 I will start a poll and bet large sums of money that the concensus is that Brunells signing is the worst deal in 10 years..NFL WIDE!

IN the entire nfl? How about trading Champ Bailey and Chris Samuels for SEAN GILBERT? How about trading your entire draft for Ricky Williams?

#4 Stats dont always tell the whole story. Patten will contribute, hopefully. But dont get it twisted Patten is no upgrade to Thrash no matter what the stats say... 1) You are comparing numbers of one reciever who had a quarterback who has won 2 SB MVP's and SPECIALIZES in spreading the ball around TO a receiver who's QB is barely above average IMO.

You are a fool if you believe this. Thrash is a special teamer, Patten has had two 800 yard recieving season in the last three years.

come on now AK, I didnt take you to be the follower type...Put the koolaid down my friend...

Dont change the subject. You are not my friend and you view of the skins is beyond flawed. Do some deep breathing exercises and find a creative outlet for your rage.

[bwparker]

Dont change the subject. You are not my friend and you view of the skins is beyond flawed. Do some deep breathing exercises and find a creative outlet for your rage.

War Hogg:Oh yeah, that's a walk off challenge my friend.

Akhhorus: Ten minutes, old Member's Only warehouse. You ought to remember that, you're a dinosaur. Come on, let's go. Open up.

I've heard some bad stories about this guy, man, he's limber. Too Limber.


Gentlemen we have ourselves a walkoff. Its a walkoff.

[BurgundyNGold]

War Hogg:Oh yeah, that's a walk off challenge my friend.

Akhhorus: Ten minutes, old Member's Only warehouse. You ought to remember that, you're a dinosaur. Come on, let's go. Open up.

I've heard some bad stories about this guy, man, he's limber. Too Limber.


Gentlemen we have ourselves a walkoff. Its a walkoff.
:lol1:

[akhhorus]

War Hogg:Oh yeah, that's a walk off challenge my friend.

Akhhorus: Ten minutes, old Member's Only warehouse. You ought to remember that, you're a dinosaur. Come on, let's go. Open up.

I've heard some bad stories about this guy, man, he's limber. Too Limber.


Gentlemen we have ourselves a walkoff. Its a walkoff.

I thought the admins had banned all Zoolander references from now on..

[BIGSEF3]

noooo, dont ban zoolander!

akh, i must say your "arrogance" is absolutely hillarious when i am not on the receiving end of it.

well played. well played, indeed!

[BurgundyNGold]

I thought the admins had banned all Zoolander references from now on..
Oh, then they're gonna be p*ssed at me!

[War Hogg]

Do yourself a favor, dont assume that there is history I dont know





You are making two huge assumptions:
1-That teams offered more in value than Santana Moss--YOU DO NOT KNOW IF THEY DID ARE NOT. And absense of fact do not prove your point
2-You're also assuming that the skins got a better offer for Bailey. The Skins made out pretty well in that deal.



Because the Skins didnt want to mention it while trade talks were going on, and the Jets dont want to mention in now. They will.



Do you even pay attention? A couple months ago, Tampa was negotiating for him and Minnesota has been talking about him with the skins



IN the entire nfl? How about trading Champ Bailey and Chris Samuels for SEAN GILBERT? How about trading your entire draft for Ricky Williams?



You are a fool if you believe this. Thrash is a special teamer, Patten has had two 800 yard recieving season in the last three years.



Dont change the subject. You are not my friend and you view of the skins is beyond flawed. Do some deep breathing exercises and find a creative outlet for your rage.

Poor Ak, your panties seem to stay in your butt...

You come across as a geek who has benifited from a few years of Madden Franchise mode. You run around this board making all these little cute queerish remarks but from what Ive observed you dont know alot about real football. Bottom line is our FO are terrible negotiators and Gibbs has made some costly mistakes in a little over a year...

[War Hogg]

War Hogg:Oh yeah, that's a walk off challenge my friend.

Akhhorus: Ten minutes, old Member's Only warehouse. You ought to remember that, you're a dinosaur. Come on, let's go. Open up.

I've heard some bad stories about this guy, man, he's limber. Too Limber.


Gentlemen we have ourselves a walkoff. Its a walkoff.

Oooohhhhhhh, he has a cheerleader....Do another split ma....

[whitskins]

Poor Ak, your panties seem to stay in your butt...

You come across as a geek who has benifited from a few years of Madden Franchise mode. You run around this board making all these little cute queerish remarks but from what Ive observed you dont know alot about real football. Bottom line is our FO are terrible negotiators and Gibbs has made some costly mistakes in a little over a year...

If you disagree and think you know more about "real football" then how bout some hard facts, or basically something other than "you'll never hear about the toe again", "I haven't heard about Gardner being traded", and "The Skins could have gotten more for Coles even though I have no connection to their front office".

[War Hogg]

If you disagree and think you know more about "real football" then how bout some hard facts, or basically something other than "you'll never hear about the toe again", "I haven't heard about Gardner being traded", and "The Skins could have gotten more for Coles even though I have no connection to their front office".

Try-outs are closed for today ma, be here at 8:30am sharp with your bloomers and pom-poms

Hard facts? I dosent take a genius to know that Washingtons FO needs to hold a JOB FAIR....EVERY team in the league wanted Champ last year and their was no need to give away this years 2nd rounder and Champ for Portis. terrible negotiations/bad decisions/very desperate looking.

Why and more importantly HOW the he!! did Brunell become last years first FA quarterback to sign a contract...

Its not neccasary to know someone in the Redskins FO to know that we could have gotten more for Coles from somewhere else.

Holler at me when Gardner leaves...

NEXT...

[whitskins]

Try-outs are closed for today ma, be here at 8:30am sharp with your bloomers and pom-poms

Hard facts? I dosent take a genius to know that Washingtons FO needs to hold a JOB FAIR....EVERY team in the league wanted Champ last year and their was no need to give away this years 2nd rounder and Champ for Portis. terrible negotiations/bad decisions/very desperate looking.

Why and more importantly HOW the he!! did Brunell become last years first FA quarterback to sign a contract...

Its not neccasary to know someone in the Redskins FO to know that we could have gotten more for Coles from somewhere else.

Holler at me when Gardner leaves...

NEXT...

You're right, I give up, those are some top notch assumptions there... Let me guess, you were Debate Team captain??

You're all tears and no solutions, opinions like yours are a dime a dozen.

If the Skins FO does hold a job fair I hope you're there because you've got an answer for everything (extreme sarcasm).

[BIGSEF3]

warhogg, i notice you live in dallas. i havent bothered to read most of your posts, so im not entirely sure, but are you a dallas fan?

you must be, because no self-respecting redskins fan would ever live in dallas, tx. in fact, redskins fans have to immunize themselves before even visiting that hell hole you call a city for our away games.

if you are, in fact, a dallas fan, don't you have anything better to do than make nearly 600 posts in a redskins forum. i know dumbass, pardon me, i mean dallass fans, arent the most literate fans around, but i would think there would be atleast 1 cowgirls forum out there.

if you are, in fact a redskins fan, living in dallas, then you are truly a pilgrim in an unholy land, to quote the great sean connery. i suggest you take a reality check. some of that cowpuke dallas air may have poisioned your mind....

[BurgundyNGold]

warhogg, i notice you live in dallas. i havent bothered to read most of your posts, so im not entirely sure, but are you a dallas fan?

you must be, because no self-respecting redskins fan would ever live in dallas, tx. in fact, redskins fans have to immunize themselves before even visiting that hell hole you call a city for our away games.

if you are, in fact, a dallas fan, don't you have anything better to do than make nearly 600 posts in a redskins forum. i know dumbass, pardon me, i mean dallass fans, arent the most literate fans around, but i would think there would be atleast 1 cowgirls forum out there.

if you are, in fact a redskins fan, living in dallas, then you are truly a pilgrim in an unholy land, to quote the great sean connery. i suggest you take a reality check. some of that cowpuke dallas air may have poisioned your mind....
I was in Dallass last year. I was given a disinfectant washdown by CDC when I drove into Arkansas. Arkansas of all places. Needless to say, I got the same treatment when I left Arkansas and entered Tennessee. :D

[War Hogg]

warhogg, i notice you live in dallas. i havent bothered to read most of your posts, so im not entirely sure, but are you a dallas fan?

you must be, because no self-respecting redskins fan would ever live in dallas, tx. in fact, redskins fans have to immunize themselves before even visiting that hell hole you call a city for our away games.

if you are, in fact, a dallas fan, don't you have anything better to do than make nearly 600 posts in a redskins forum. i know dumbass, pardon me, i mean dallass fans, arent the most literate fans around, but i would think there would be atleast 1 cowgirls forum out there.

if you are, in fact a redskins fan, living in dallas, then you are truly a pilgrim in an unholy land, to quote the great sean connery. i suggest you take a reality check. some of that cowpuke dallas air may have poisioned your mind....

First and foremost.....GET A LIFE..

Yes I do live in Dallas and and no im not a Dallas fan...

Second of all....How was it possible for you to type two full paragraghs and not make one single intelligent comment.

Pull the needle out of your arm...

NEXT...

[War Hogg]

You're right, I give up, those are some top notch assumptions there... Let me guess, you were Debate Team captain??

You're all tears and no solutions, opinions like yours are a dime a dozen.

If the Skins FO does hold a job fair I hope you're there because you've got an answer for everything (extreme sarcasm).

I have not suggested anything in this particular post in reference to how the FO should handle thier business.

Again, whats your point.

[whitskins]

I have not suggested anything in this particular post in reference to how the FO should handle thier business.

Again, whats your point.

My point is back up your whining with some facts, not speculation or random thoughts pulled out of your a@@. Then when you've dried your tears, maybe an opinion on what you think we should be doing (note: this would actually require an "intelligent thought" which you have claimed lacking in others' posts).

Until then I'll just regard you as a crybaby with no point on a message board, where the point is to debate, not just say our FO sucks they should have gotten more for every trade!!! There are a number of other regular posters on this site who are upset with our offseason, yet they offer educated opinions and add something to the discussion.

Nobody is mistaking your tough talk for actual football knowledge so try to contribute something if it's not to much to ask.

[War Hogg]

My point is back up your whining with some facts, not speculation or random thoughts pulled out of your a@@. Then when you've dried your tears, maybe an opinion on what you think we should be doing (note: this would actually require an "intelligent thought" which you have claimed lacking in others' posts).

Until then I'll just regard you as a crybaby with no point on a message board, where the point is to debate, not just say our FO sucks they should have gotten more for every trade!!! There are a number of other regular posters on this site who are upset with our offseason, yet they offer educated opinions and add something to the discussion.

Nobody is mistaking your tough talk for actual football knowledge so try to contribute something if it's not to much to ask.

Sorry to offend you, but the problem is that you came in on the ass-end of a debate and you didnt know what the conversation was about...This wasnt a discussion on "what can the FO do to become more effective"( read the title of the post). I was simply stating why or why not I felt the post was accurate....

Peace be unto you...lol

[akhhorus]

Poor Ak, your panties seem to stay in your butt...

You come across as a geek who has benifited from a few years of Madden Franchise mode. You run around this board making all these little cute queerish remarks but from what Ive observed you dont know alot about real football. Bottom line is our FO are terrible negotiators and Gibbs has made some costly mistakes in a little over a year...


Is this all you have?

You had all day to read and think about my retort and this is the best you can come up with?

BIGSEF is more intelligent and insightful than you. When you want to actually debate the issues, feel free to pm me. If you want to continue to call me a cheerleader, I will refer to you as a Dallas fan.

[bwparker]

Oooohhhhhhh, he has a cheerleader....Do another split ma....
WOAH!! Don't call me a cheerleader, War Hogg. I take no sides. It was merely a bit of levity to brighten the situation. Didn't seem to work though. Personally, I think that some of our moves this offseason have been questionable and some have been shrewd. I think we will be a better team overall next season. But who knows, all the decisions I think are good could turn out bad and vice versa. I just tend towards optimism, its more fun. Guess I'll just have to wait and see.

Now I've become bored with this thread. I'm gonna go look at some porn. :flower1:

[War Hogg]

WOAH!! Don't call me a cheerleader, War Hogg. I take no sides. It was merely a bit of levity to brighten the situation. Didn't seem to work though. Personally, I think that some of our moves this offseason have been questionable and some have been shrewd. I think we will be a better team overall next season. But who knows, all the decisions I think are good could turn out bad and vice versa. I just tend towards optimism, its more fun. Guess I'll just have to wait and see.

Now I've become bored with this thread. I'm gonna go look at some porn. :flower1:


Sorry about that bro, I was just taking them as they came ....lol

MENTAL NOTE: (bwparker is a friendly.)

[War Hogg]

Is this all you have?

You had all day to read and think about my retort and this is the best you can come up with?

BIGSEF is more intelligent and insightful than you. When you want to actually debate the issues, feel free to pm me. If you want to continue to call me a cheerleader, I will refer to you as a Dallas fan.


BIG SEF! Ok, holdup, now thats where I draw the line.....

[akhhorus]

BIG SEF! Ok, holdup, now thats where I draw the line.....

(crickets)

Again avoiding the debate. That shows your level of maturity.

[bwparker]

:D

[Jimreaper007]

Ohhhhhh...another fight I'm not in!!!!

Lemme go grab some popcorn!

Please gentlemen.....Carry on

[War Hogg]

(crickets)

Again avoiding the debate. That shows your level of maturity.

What debate....I think our FO lacks negotiating skills and solid decision making which has resulted Alot of throwing money around (picks) and hasty decisions.

These 3 in particular: Brunell being the first QB picked out of FA last year along with this years 3rd rounder; Coles for Moss straight up deal; Champ and this years 2nd rounder for Portis.

You feel as though these deals were handled well and FO is doing a satisfactory job. I disagree...


move on....

[akhhorus]

What debate....I think our FO lacks negotiating skills and solid decision making which has resulted Alot of throwing money around (picks) and hasty decisions.

These 3 in particular: Brunell being the first QB picked out of FA last year along with this years 3rd rounder; Coles for Moss straight up deal; Champ and this years 2nd rounder for Portis.

You feel as though these deals were handled well and FO is doing a satisfactory job. I disagree...


move on....

Oh really. Care to explain how they got Marcus Washington, Griffin, Springs and Jansen on the cheap? And how they got Portis-who got the fourth highest rushing total for a Redskin despite having no passing game to take the pressure off and inconsistant line play-for a player who was never coming back here anyways and a second rounder? And how they dumped a ton of salary in Coles and still got a gamebreaking Wideout in return? And how Brunell will never see 80% of the money in his contract?

Sounds like its not the FO screwing up.

And also, please go into more depth how the Brunell deal was the worst move in the NFL in the last 10 years. I would love to hear how that was worse than trading up for Ryan Leaf. Or worse than trading Champ Bailey and Chris Samuels for Sean Gilbert.

[BandWagon]

Some of the premium we paid for a guy like Brunell was really insurance...insurance that he would not hit the open market and put at risk an acquisition the coaching staff felt strongly about. In hindsight was it a good deal? Probably not, but I can't fault them for not wanting to compete for the guy. They assigned a price point for that insurance and backloaded his contract to mitigate the risk. I don't see how you can really tee off on that one...
Oh really. Care to explain how they got Marcus Washington, Griffin, Springs and Jansen on the cheap? And how they got Portis-who got the fourth highest rushing total for a Redskin despite having no passing game to take the pressure off and inconsistant line play-for a player who was never coming back here anyways and a second rounder? And how they dumped a ton of salary in Coles and still got a gamebreaking Wideout in return? And how Brunell will never see 80% of the money in his contract?

Sounds like its not the FO screwing up.

And also, please go into more depth how the Brunell deal was the worst move in the NFL in the last 10 years. I would love to hear how that was worse than trading up for Ryan Leaf. Or worse than trading Champ Bailey and Chris Samuels for Sean Gilbert.

[cowboyuptx]

good analysis!

[ChiefPowhatan17]

Hello, old posts!!!