The panic really is starting to set in

[CNYSkinFan]

Man watching the rats scurry for the deck around here lately is just amazing. So many people are ready to throw out the baby with the bath water. Actually I would go on with more metaphors but I am just getting plain disgusted.

This is mainly an attack on the Article in the Washington Times this morning that has so many people reeled up. Let's take this point for point:

Coles for Moss: Those of you who are upset with the cap hit that we are taking this year on the trade have a right to be upset. But you are TOTALLY ignoring the cap savings for 2006. Before the offseason many writers were proclaiming that 2006 was a cap hell year for Washington. Who can say that now? With Samuels restructuring and Coles leaving we are in very good shape for next year.

Now many of you have parroted the notion that we got the lesser of the two receivers as well and we should of gotten a pick. I am poretty sure no one was going to give us a receiver and a pick for Coles. Coles was a malcontent who after the FIRST year of his contract wanted out and then it went public in the second year. He also is hampered by his toe injury. This is a chronic injury that he is refusing to get surgery on. That is his right, but it still undervalues him.

I rate this a wash, we got a reciever who wants to be here and we got rid of a malcontent who did not. The cap hit was going to happen whether we released him or traded him and at least we got value. You can pretend to be tough guys and say "I would of told Coles to Play and shut up" but we are building a team here not a street gang. When Randy Thomas who has been a teammate of coles since he came into the NFl called him out this week then you know it would of been a pproblem all year.

Losing Pierce/Smoot The coles trade had no impact on why we lost Pierce. We lost Pierce because the Giants overpaid for him and we felt that we could replace him. Our cap situation is not good but it is workable. We could of signed both if they were reasonable contracts. And Smoot is not gone yet. This might be the smartest move that the Redskins have done all season. Unless KC way overpays Smoot he is coming back homme at the contract that the Redskins originally offered.

Trotter This was a true mess. I was agianst his signing when it happened. MItchell did fine the year before. However this was a move that Snyder made in his rookie year. The right thing to do was to let him go and take the hit now instead of keeping him on the roster. When you make moves you will make mistakes. This was one of them.

Brunell I was totally agianst the signing of Brunell but the Times is inaccurate when they said no one else was pursuing the quarterback. For one Miami was, so were a couple of other people. Gibbs thought that Brunell still had something left. He was wrong. But he is still a decent backup qb. They will pay for this contract as well but If I remember right most of the people on this board thought Brunell was a good idea. Sign him up for a post 6-1-06 release. But Most of the signings last year panned out. We can get past one bad signing.

Morton The article is assuming a pre June 1, 2005 released. This is probably not the case. And does anyone disagree Bryant and Moss are upgrades in this department?

Barrow Barrow was hurt and this is not the Redskins fault. Also if he is released post June 1, 2005 he will not count that much against the cap. We will also negotiated a pretty good contract here with a medium SB. This will not be a big hurt.

2006 or 2007 cap hell myth The moves this year shores up great cap years for the near future. The myth that the Redskins will have to do what the titans did this year is just that....a myth. and are youn telling me one superbowl appearance 6 years ago is why the Titans are in cap hell now? That is just absurd.

There are logical inconsistincies with on one hand arguing that the Redskins have too much dead cap money and on the other hand wishing to overy pay for players. Overpaying for players is how we got into the minor mess we are in. Besides Smoot and Pierce are there really any other must have free agents out there we did not sign? We got our center in Rabach, our WR upgrade in Patten (No matter what anyone says the big name WR was never in the mix and not what the Redskins needed), and we can still sign Smoot if he accepts the offer before him. The times is the same paper that ran the hotly debated Lavar for Moss rumor.

Look guys panic and complain all you want, but until the games are played we will know nothing. I give Gibbs the benefit of the doubt. They are working to correct past mistakes this year so we can be better in the future. That is what this is all about. Small move to building a superbowl team. Patience....young men patience. Old Joe knows what he is doing.

If not...then we are all in trouble.

[akhhorus]

The panic here is getting beyond ridiculous.

[CNYSkinFan]

The panic here is getting beyond ridiculous.

I agree. We aren't Cowboy fans for christ's sake

[Dolla Bill]

Its just that everyone wants a win it all now season. That isn't how it works. Hell, it hasn't work the past 5 years. I like what Joe is bringing to the table now. An old school belief that the team comes first, not a team of superstars.

[Spence]

I'm with you, pal. Every year fans complain that the Skins spend their money too freely and then when the Skins show a bit of restraint, they panic. If titles were won in the offseason, the Redskins would be world champs and the Patriots would be world chumps. The Coles/Moss trade was bad in the sense that the Skins didn't get equal value, but the cap hole it creates this year [and this year only] doesn't bother me one bit. If it prevents the Redskins from offering Smoot [or some other better-than-average free agent cornerback] a $14 million signing bonus then I'll consider it money well not-spent.

The Redskins need to stop trying to spend their way out of trouble. They've got to develop a 3-5 year plan for returning to dominance and then stick with it. That plan should involve good drafting, player development and using free agency for depth, NOT FOR BUILDING A TEAM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

The panic here is getting beyond ridiculous.
Agree. I can't understand some guys, they complain if we spend big money, and then they complain if we don't.

Personally, I have GREAT expectations for next year. If we fail, then I was wrong, but if we succeed (and I'm pretty sure we will), I'll go back to remember some things to the doubters. I will trust in hR unofficial researcher akhhorus for help.

[guinness4health]

The panic here is getting beyond ridiculous.

i also agree...

the washington times never has valid points, no sense in driving ourselves crazy over their idiocy

[MoeRedskins]

I think it is just the frustration of the past five years boiling over plus no love from the media. Everywhere the redskins turn there another outlet bashing their moves and second guessing their mistakes. Hindsight is 20/20 and a little panic is due, but currently there is nothing to panic about as of yet. Everywhere you turn there is something about the lack of depth, the move made here, dead money there, and nothing we can do about it. It is good that one person with their head screwed on right is running the show in Redskins Park. Every person on this sight would handle almost every issue differently and some conflict feeds the fire of conversation. But along with the panic some other ridicolous assesments and suggestions for signing/drafting need to stop as well, but they won't. That is what makes us fans.

[cmdlost29]

Liked your post, wrote something similar to this here today. It took me a couple days to come around to the Moss for Coles trade but honestly if Coles doesn't return to form pre injury then I think we will actually look back on this move and see we made the right choice. We didn't screw our future by letting Pierce or Coles go. I think we lost with those two and will probably lose with there replacements but we at least were able to make the hard decisions based on information we had on them this season. If both go on to Pro Bowl caliber players I think I will faint (Pierce not so much). Needless to say this offseason has seen a dramatic change of pace with our beloved Redskins. We aren't morgaging the future to win it all THIS YEAR. We are planning to improve this upcoming season and do better in 06. Makes sense to me. Just took me a bit longer to see that then you quicker dudes.

What I don't like about your post is your belief that Brunell is a capable backup this year. I see him at best our #3 QB unless he can throw the ball again which I obviously think he can't. Brunell and the whole backup QB situation scares me to death right now. What happens if we get on a roll out the gates and in week 8 (we are at 6-2) Ramsey is lost for the season? Does anyone believe after what we saw in Brunell last season that he can come back and be productive again? I don't. He played in 3 games in 03 and sucked last season. He played in 9 games last season and sucked worse then in 03. What makes us believe he won't suck even worse in 05? We need a better backup QB in 05 then Brunell or better pray that Ramsey stays healthy all year.

[BurgundyNGold]

Well said. I agree with everything you said, including the FA signings you were against. I would add Barrow to that list too. If Joe is going to build a legacy for himselg here in DC that outlives his second stint, then he'll have to do it slowly and intelligently.

It's as if Joe is saying "I don't want the overpriced, pro bowlers with the 'me first' attitude. Give me the 80th - 85th percentile guys that I can pay well, but not overpay. Give me guys who are team players and are willing to do what the team needs them to do to win. That's how we'll build this team to last."

[The Skinsinator]

I like the fact that Gibbs has done a good job of essentially "cleaning house." This is going to be great for our team now and in the future. We still have a 9th pick, we really helped our o-line (our biggest problem last season), and now we have receivers who can attain separation. Screw Coles and Gardner. I'm excited about Patten & Moss.

[guinness4health]

Its just that everyone wants a win it all now season. That isn't how it works. Hell, it hasn't work the past 5 years. I like what Joe is bringing to the table now. An old school belief that the team comes first, not a team of superstars.

well put

[GibbsFan]

I like the way the offseason has gone, Patten/Moss are an upgrade to me because we had 2 self absorbed WR's who did not want to be here. Of course RG is still here but that will change on draft day or before. Our cap situation will improve, and most importantly team chemistry too. If Smoot has to come back, and PR improves(Gibbs-Musgrave) then we are poised for a good season.

[BurgundyNGold]

Oh yeah, one thing I didn't agree with was the assumption that Brunnell is a capable backup. If you mean he's capable while sitting on the bench, well, then you're right. But then again, I would be a capable backup sitting on the bench.

If you mean that he's capable on the field, I have to vigorously disagree. He proved that he cannot play in any capacity last year.

[whitskins]

What the Times and the Posts recent articles are trying to do is tie in the Coles trade, losing Pierce, and potentially losing Smoot to the days of signing Deion, Bruce Smith, Jeff George, in a half brained attempt to prove that our salary cap blunders are still running rampant.

The fact that alludes them (or perhaps more likely does not allude them but helps contribute panic and hence more readers -- maybe this point belongs in the Political Forum :)) is that these moves are all being made in the efforts of building a TEAM. Coles is a whiney punk who wants the offense to revolve around him and his bad toe, Pierce was looking to get seriously paid, no harm in that, but it would put a huge chink in the armour of our new team concept, not overpaying individual players beyond their worth, and Smoot is in the same situation.

Bruce, Deion, George, etc were mindless acquisitions with the exact opposite motivations behind them. I honestly believe we have learned from those mistakes, only now we are paying for them. But the rewards will be reaped soon...

Nobody rips the Patriots for building a team this way, they put them up on a pedestal. Hopefully the process works for us in the same way.

[Edskins_RVA]

I wish there was some way we could get Brunell to re-structure/reduce his salary. Not sure if it would help as far as the SB hit, but might make him a little more palatable... I still think Brunell can be an effective backup and a good mentor for Ramsey. However, I hate overpaying for him... :Padawan:

[Redblood]

I remember the Washington Times was running the story that we were actively persuing Jim Fassel, while the Washington Post was already pronouncing the HOF Coach Joe Gibbs Deal!

So, which one has a better track record?

And which one makes for entertaining reading?

Controversy spurs readership, and the Times is on that Bandwagon, bigtime!

[CNYSkinFan]

Oh yeah, one thing I didn't agree with was the assumption that Brunnell is a capable backup. If you mean he's capable while sitting on the bench, well, then you're right. But then again, I would be a capable backup sitting on the bench.

If you mean that he's capable on the field, I have to vigorously disagree. He proved that he cannot play in any capacity last year.

Well by capable I mean he can run the offense and is a good emergency measure. Brunell had problems last year, big ones. But if Ramsey went down Brunell could be serviceable. I think the pressure and the offense on a whole was too much for him as well. I still would take Brunell for one game if I had to. More so then an unproven UFA. You can make an interesting point that Hasselbeck mught be a better #2 but i guess what it comes down to is it's close in my mind and I would go with Brunell first.

[CNYSkinFan]

Nobody rips the Patriots for building a team this way, they put them up on a pedestal. Hopefully the process works for us in the same way.

Exactly. They cut Ty Law and Troy Brown this off season and have lost David Patten as well now and NO ONE is criticizing them. That is what winning 3 rings does for you. Can anyone name 1 free agent they signed?

We are following the NE blueprint circa 2000 right now. Getting rid of the dead weight from a former blow hard coach and now preparing ourselves for a 5 year run at the title. I like what I see.

[BurgundyNGold]

Well by capable I mean he can run the offense and is a good emergency measure.
OK, well I guess we're going to have to disagree here. I think this is more a description of the 3rd string QB.

Brunell had problems last year, big ones. But if Ramsey went down Brunell could be serviceable.
IMO, if Ramsey goes down and Brunnell steps in, our season is over.

[smoak]

I agree that people are worried for no reason. Everyone needs to relax....


Trotter This was a true mess. I was agianst his signing when it happened. MItchell did fine the year before. However this was a move that Snyder made in his rookie year. The right thing to do was to let him go and take the hit now instead of keeping him on the roster. When you make moves you will make mistakes. This was one of them.

Trotter was technically not Snyder's rookie year by any means? Snyder had three years under his belt before Trotter? Either way though it was a mistake BG (before Gibbs) that he had to address.


Brunell I was totally agianst the signing of Brunell but the Times is inaccurate when they said no one else was pursuing the quarterback. For one Miami was, so were a couple of other people. Gibbs thought that Brunell still had something left. He was wrong. But he is still a decent backup qb. They will pay for this contract as well but If I remember right most of the people on this board thought Brunell was a good idea. Sign him up for a post 6-1-06 release. But Most of the signings last year panned out. We can get past one bad signing.

Ok, the "Brunell mistake" is starting to bug me. ANYONE can look back at a signing or draft pick in hindsight and say it was a mistake. There were at least six teams looking for a veteran QB last season and the pickings were VERY slim. None of the veteran QBs did much of anything, but Gibbs thought he needed to make a move to get Brunell. If our fan base spent 1/100th of the time cheering as they do complaining then maybe FedEx would be a tough place to play. Brunell didn't play well people, but guess what... He has the coaches support and there is no reason to think he'll be cut in '06. Gibbs like veteran QBs and Brunell specifically.


Barrow Barrow was hurt and this is not the Redskins fault. Also if he is released post June 1, 2005 he will not count that much against the cap. We will also negotiated a pretty good contract here with a medium SB. This will not be a big hurt.

You can't fault Gibbs for injuries. Jansen, Daniels, and Barrow were all penciled in as starters that combined played what 3-5 games. Barrow was Williams boy and Daniels was Blanche's.


Look guys panic and complain all you want, but until the games are played we will know nothing. I give Gibbs the benefit of the doubt. They are working to correct past mistakes this year so we can be better in the future. That is what this is all about. Small move to building a superbowl team. Patience....young men patience. Old Joe knows what he is doing.

The problem is our fans are just not very good fans on the whole. I thought it was because of the time under Norv and the whole losing for over a decade, but guess what? Our fans have always been quick to jump ship and boo the team. They booed Gibbs and taunted him in his first season to the point where the man drove alternate routes home. 99% of football fans are just plain stupid in terms of football IQ and wouldn't know a pulling lineman from a zone blitz. If you want to be negative, then be negative, but you have to give me more than "we're going to be in cap hell in 200X".

[BurgundyNGold]

IOk, the "Brunell mistake" is starting to bug me. ANYONE can look back at a signing or draft pick in hindsight and say it was a mistake. There were at least six teams looking for a veteran QB last season and the pickings were VERY slim. None of the veteran QBs did much of anything, but Gibbs thought he needed to make a move to get Brunell. If our fan base spent 1/100th of the time cheering as they do complaining then maybe FedEx would be a tough place to play. Brunell didn't play well people, but guess what... He has the coaches support and there is no reason to think he'll be cut in '06. Gibbs like veteran QBs and Brunell specifically.
Hindsight? C'mon, smoak. Even you had to be grinding your teeth when we gave up a first day draft pick (2nd or 3rd round) AND an $8M signing bonus to a 34 year old QB. That was a bad deal... period. You don't need to be either clairvoyant see that beforehand or a historian to call it out afterwards.

[Keino]

I'm with you, pal. Every year fans complain that the Skins spend their money too freely and then when the Skins show a bit of restraint, they panic. If titles were won in the offseason, the Redskins would be world champs and the Patriots would be world chumps. The Coles/Moss trade was bad in the sense that the Skins didn't get equal value, but the cap hole it creates this year [and this year only] doesn't bother me one bit. If it prevents the Redskins from offering Smoot [or some other better-than-average free agent cornerback] a $14 million signing bonus then I'll consider it money well not-spent.

The Redskins need to stop trying to spend their way out of trouble. They've got to develop a 3-5 year plan for returning to dominance and then stick with it. That plan should involve good drafting, player development and using free agency for depth, NOT FOR BUILDING A TEAM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I agree with this completely.

Count me as a fan upset with the Moss-Coles trade, who has NOT ignored the cap savings of 2006. My reasoning is simple: Not equal value in present day terms.
I do not buy the argument that we had no choice but to make this bad deal. As it was, we had the leverage. Coles needed us to accomodate his request, not vice-versa. The worst possible outcome by keeping him was to have a disgruntled player on the roster. There are many ways to motivate disgruntled players, but the prospect of their rep being tarnished around the league and future earnings are at risk generally serve as motivation enough. How many of us knew that Coles wasn't happy before 2 weeks ago? That is my only issue with the off-season thus far. We made a depsertion trade when the situation didn't warrant desperation.

[CNYSkinFan]

Trotter was technically not Snyder's rookie year by any means? Snyder had three years under his belt before Trotter? Either way though it was a mistake BG (before Gibbs) that he had to address.


Trotter was signed in the same year as Carrier, George, Deion, and Bruce Smith, 2000. Thiw was truly Snyder's rookie year as he assumed ownership too late in 1999 to make football moves. This is the year that everyone rates Snyder by still.

The mistake was signing trotter in the first place. He was a better talent then Mitchell but was always out pof position and gambling too much. Our run defense, a MLB main responsibility, was horrid until after he left.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

Trotter was signed in the same year as Carrier, George, Deion, and Bruce Smith, 2000. Thiw was truly Snyder's rookie year as he assumed ownership too late in 1999 to make football moves. This is the year that everyone rates Snyder by still.

The mistake was signing trotter in the first place. He was a better talent then Mitchell but was always out pof position and gambling too much. Our run defense, a MLB main responsibility, was horrid until after he left.
That's not true, Trotter came when spurrier was HC. Not in 2000. Same year as Armstead.

[smoak]

Hindsight? C'mon, smoak. Even you had to be grinding your teeth when we gave up a first day draft pick (2nd or 3rd round) AND an $8M signing bonus to a 34 year old QB. That was a bad deal... period. You don't need to be either clairvoyant see that beforehand or a historian to call it out afterwards.

I was not a huge fan of the trade, but all picks and money aside I wanted Brunell more than Warner, Garcia, and Vinny. I stand by that. Of course I didn't want to give up a 3rd rounder, but the signing bonus while a little high is cheap for a QB you think can start for 4 years. The signing bonus becomes an albatross when you try to cut the player after one season. I was actually more upset that we gave a second rounder for Portis because I thought the trade was fair straight up. Then we gave Portis a monster bonus when he had two cheap seasons left and I was more upset about that than Brunell's deal.

Also, for the record, I am never going to fret much about giving up 5-7 round picks because there are always undrafted free agent gems out there. Losing the second and third was annoying though.

Hence I think Brunell is on the roster in 2007 assuming he has a solid camp and preseason.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

Trotter was signed in the same year as Carrier, George, Deion, and Bruce Smith, 2000. Thiw was truly Snyder's rookie year as he assumed ownership too late in 1999 to make football moves. This is the year that everyone rates Snyder by still.

The mistake was signing trotter in the first place. He was a better talent then Mitchell but was always out pof position and gambling too much. Our run defense, a MLB main responsibility, was horrid until after he left.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=4480

[smoak]

Trotter was signed in the same year as Carrier, George, Deion, and Bruce Smith, 2000. Thiw was truly Snyder's rookie year as he assumed ownership too late in 1999 to make football moves. This is the year that everyone rates Snyder by still.

The mistake was signing trotter in the first place. He was a better talent then Mitchell but was always out pof position and gambling too much. Our run defense, a MLB main responsibility, was horrid until after he left.

CYN - you're killing me. you gotta check the record books amigo! :D

but we agree on pretty much everything else. the negativity is out of hand.

[scacchi]

Couldn't agree more! Everyone is bugging out. You can't build a team overnight. Chemestry takes time and the Skins have the best chemist in Gibbs. I have always been a huge Skins/Gibbs fan and was so glad to hear he was coming back. A lot of people predicted playoffs right away, I didn't see it happening. What I did see though was a team. A team that plays until the whistle. A team that continues to progress. This team is headed in the right direction and you will definitly see an improvement next year. I'd much rather have team players with heart than a bunch of mefirsts. Let's go SKINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jimreaper007]

Hell...it's not my money so I'm not panicing about jack...

[IowaSkinsFan]

Trotter was signed in the same year as Carrier, George, Deion, and Bruce Smith, 2000. Thiw was truly Snyder's rookie year as he assumed ownership too late in 1999 to make football moves. This is the year that everyone rates Snyder by still.

The mistake was signing trotter in the first place. He was a better talent then Mitchell but was always out pof position and gambling too much. Our run defense, a MLB main responsibility, was horrid until after he left.

Sorry, but your wrong there. Trotter was signed in 2002, Spurrier's first season in DC.

[CNYSkinFan]

That's not true, Trotter came when spurrier was HC. Not in 2000. Same year as Armstead.

I am wrong......lol...it happens I guess I sort of lumped them all in there together.

[smoak]

I am wrong......lol...it happens I guess I sort of lumped them all in there together.

LOL! I did that with Norv Turner's entire stint until 1999.

[Skinsfan1906]

Man watching the rats scurry for the deck around here lately is just amazing. So many people are ready to throw out the baby with the bath water. Actually I would go on with more metaphors but I am just getting plain disgusted.

This is mainly an attack on the Article in the Washington Times this morning that has so many people reeled up. Let's take this point for point:

Coles for Moss: Those of you who are upset with the cap hit that we are taking this year on the trade have a right to be upset. But you are TOTALLY ignoring the cap savings for 2006. Before the offseason many writers were proclaiming that 2006 was a cap hell year for Washington. Who can say that now? With Samuels restructuring and Coles leaving we are in very good shape for next year.

Now many of you have parroted the notion that we got the lesser of the two receivers as well and we should of gotten a pick. I am poretty sure no one was going to give us a receiver and a pick for Coles. Coles was a malcontent who after the FIRST year of his contract wanted out and then it went public in the second year. He also is hampered by his toe injury. This is a chronic injury that he is refusing to get surgery on. That is his right, but it still undervalues him.

I rate this a wash, we got a reciever who wants to be here and we got rid of a malcontent who did not. The cap hit was going to happen whether we released him or traded him and at least we got value. You can pretend to be tough guys and say "I would of told Coles to Play and shut up" but we are building a team here not a street gang. When Randy Thomas who has been a teammate of coles since he came into the NFl called him out this week then you know it would of been a pproblem all year.

Losing Pierce/Smoot The coles trade had no impact on why we lost Pierce. We lost Pierce because the Giants overpaid for him and we felt that we could replace him. Our cap situation is not good but it is workable. We could of signed both if they were reasonable contracts. And Smoot is not gone yet. This might be the smartest move that the Redskins have done all season. Unless KC way overpays Smoot he is coming back homme at the contract that the Redskins originally offered.

Trotter This was a true mess. I was agianst his signing when it happened. MItchell did fine the year before. However this was a move that Snyder made in his rookie year. The right thing to do was to let him go and take the hit now instead of keeping him on the roster. When you make moves you will make mistakes. This was one of them.

Brunell I was totally agianst the signing of Brunell but the Times is inaccurate when they said no one else was pursuing the quarterback. For one Miami was, so were a couple of other people. Gibbs thought that Brunell still had something left. He was wrong. But he is still a decent backup qb. They will pay for this contract as well but If I remember right most of the people on this board thought Brunell was a good idea. Sign him up for a post 6-1-06 release. But Most of the signings last year panned out. We can get past one bad signing.

Morton The article is assuming a pre June 1, 2005 released. This is probably not the case. And does anyone disagree Bryant and Moss are upgrades in this department?

Barrow Barrow was hurt and this is not the Redskins fault. Also if he is released post June 1, 2005 he will not count that much against the cap. We will also negotiated a pretty good contract here with a medium SB. This will not be a big hurt.

2006 or 2007 cap hell myth The moves this year shores up great cap years for the near future. The myth that the Redskins will have to do what the titans did this year is just that....a myth. and are youn telling me one superbowl appearance 6 years ago is why the Titans are in cap hell now? That is just absurd.

There are logical inconsistincies with on one hand arguing that the Redskins have too much dead cap money and on the other hand wishing to overy pay for players. Overpaying for players is how we got into the minor mess we are in. Besides Smoot and Pierce are there really any other must have free agents out there we did not sign? We got our center in Rabach, our WR upgrade in Patten (No matter what anyone says the big name WR was never in the mix and not what the Redskins needed), and we can still sign Smoot if he accepts the offer before him. The times is the same paper that ran the hotly debated Lavar for Moss rumor.

Look guys panic and complain all you want, but until the games are played we will know nothing. I give Gibbs the benefit of the doubt. They are working to correct past mistakes this year so we can be better in the future. That is what this is all about. Small move to building a superbowl team. Patience....young men patience. Old Joe knows what he is doing.

If not...then we are all in trouble.

OK, I'm gonna say it...............this is probably the GREATEST REDSKINS POST THAT I HAVE EVER READ!!!! Seriously. Good stuff. You brought up many compelling points.

I must now go on the record and say that when the whole Coles for Moss thing was even talked about......I HATED it. Hated it from day one (mainly because of the Salary Cap hit).

You have opened my (our) eyes to the fact that all things considered, this isn't as bad as many of us thought. I was one of those "tough guys" that you talked about. I thought that we should take the position that he signed the contract, so we 'own' his sorry little butt and he does what we say. Give back some of the money and go to the Jets....and if you refuse, then you are STUCK with us!!! Take it or leave it.

That being said, you are right. We do not need a cancer in the locker room that doesn't want to be here. You are up in New York, so I'm sure that you are well aware that the JETS fans were as pissed at Coles then as we are now. They thought that he was detrimental to the team then (labeling him "Meshawn"....or selfish). It's kinda funny how many of them are welcoming him "back home". Well that's another story, but hilarious to say the least.

In any event, we are better off without Coles. For the record, I did not see him burn past anyone last year. Not even once. He has definitely lost 2 or 3 steps and his toe has something to do with that. Moss on the other hand has 'lost' his defender on some plays last year. Not saying that Moss is better than Coles, but he can stretch the field, which could at the very least, keep Defenses honest, plus open up underneath stuff for Cooley, Thrash, etc. Good post, my friend.

[RedskinsDave]

I agree regarding the panic that has set in. I am willing to give Gibbs this season to prove whether or not he can still make it. If we still stink I will lose all hope.

[tommahawk]

Morton The article is assuming a pre June 1, 2005 released. This is probably not the case. And does anyone disagree Bryant and Moss are upgrades in this department?

When Morton wasn't playing well the entire team wasn't including ST. So it would be unfair to say it was Mortons fault.
I don't know Mortons attitude toward team, but I don't think Gibbs will cut a team guy that got injured.
I don't know if Bryant or Moss would be an upgrade.

[redskin_rich]

No panic here. I'm quite satisfied with the way things have gone down. I am getting tired of all the chicken littles predicting doom around here. If/when Smoot gets signed with somebody else, I suspect a huge wave of negativity.
[Sigh] Hopefully we get Rod Gardner dealt this week, that will make most of us happy.
Keep the faith, Hail to the Redskins!

[CNYSkinFan]

When Morton wasn't playing well the entire team wasn't including ST. So it would be unfair to say it was Mortons fault.
I don't know Mortons attitude toward team, but I don't think Gibbs will cut a team guy that got injured.
I don't know if Bryant or Moss would be an upgrade.

Well Bryant immediately showed spark when he got in. He made people miss and did not make many mistakes (although that fumble against Dallas worries me). Morton is going to run into a numbers game. He is not an option in the Gibbs offense so is a pure special teams player. Gibbs will have to choose between Bryant who is cheap and maybe better and Morton who is more expensive and likes the sidelines too much.

I think Morton is all but gone.

[skins111111]

Well by capable I mean he can run the offense and is a good emergency measure. Brunell had problems last year, big ones. But if Ramsey went down Brunell could be serviceable. I think the pressure and the offense on a whole was too much for him as well. I still would take Brunell for one game if I had to. More so then an unproven UFA. You can make an interesting point that Hasselbeck mught be a better #2 but i guess what it comes down to is it's close in my mind and I would go with Brunell first.

Brunells arm and head are amoung the missing and I wish the rest of him was too. Hasslebeck should be our #2 QB, he has great pocket presence and vision, unfortunatly he has a weak arm and our O will be geared around Ram and our speed WRs and this will not be good for Tim. I think if we geared the O around Tim he could take us all the way, Then again so can Ram.

btw great post we needed that :)

[BurgundyNGold]

When Morton wasn't playing well the entire team wasn't including ST. So it would be unfair to say it was Mortons fault.
I don't know Mortons attitude toward team, but I don't think Gibbs will cut a team guy that got injured.
I don't know if Bryant or Moss would be an upgrade.
In his 2 seasons here, Morton has spent more time looking for the sideline than the Line Judge. We didn't sign him to took pretty and dress nice for the press. He's here to give 100% and turn it upfield.

[BurgundyNGold]

Well Bryant immediately showed spark when he got in. He made people miss and did not make many mistakes (although that fumble against Dallas worries me). Morton is going to run into a numbers game. He is not an option in the Gibbs offense so is a pure special teams player. Gibbs will have to choose between Bryant who is cheap and maybe better and Morton who is more expensive and likes the sidelines too much.

I think Morton is all but gone.
I would prefer to find a way to trade him for 5th rounder. Maybe the Jets?

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

good post CNY.....alot of people are tripping because we reach our normal quota of free agents. there is still the draft left and still time to sign a few guys floating around.

i was thinking earlier that we dont have very many holes to fill. we could go into the season with what we have now if need be. WR, DE, MLB, CB and TE are positions that could stand to be upgraded and we still have plenty of time to do it.

[akhhorus]

Agree. I can't understand some guys, they complain if we spend big money, and then they complain if we don't.

Personally, I have GREAT expectations for next year. If we fail, then I was wrong, but if we succeed (and I'm pretty sure we will), I'll go back to remember some things to the doubters. I will trust in hR unofficial researcher akhhorus for help.

There are already a couple new lists....

[CNYSkinFan]

I would prefer to find a way to trade him for 5th rounder. Maybe the Jets?

Right now I think Morton has very little value. Unimpressive numbers the last two years, coming off a season ending injury, and most teams will just wait for him to be cut.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

There are already a couple new lists....
oh boy...i remember those lists! just make sure im on the good ones, lol.....

[akhhorus]

oh boy...i remember those lists! just make sure im on the good ones, lol.....

Youre not on any lists.....yet...videos...thats a different story.

[Keino]

You know those of us who don't appreciate the team getting bent over on a trade shouldn't be characterized as whiners or Chicken Littles.

[silverspring]

well the skins made a lot of cap mistakes notable brunell. we also got truly unlucky on barrow and coles' toe and attitude.
It seems like the new attitude fiscally is much better and I think they are fixing it, but sometimes fixing problems hurts more then not fixing it. After this year things should be a lot better assuming we learned our lesson.

[akhhorus]

You know those of us who don't appreciate the team getting bent over on a trade shouldn't be characterized as whiners or Chicken Littles.

Keino, you've at least used argument, and I dont consider you a whiner on this-nor should anyone else-but the people who come here and just declare the season and the skins over because of all the moves and the dead cap room and Smoot possiblity leaving with just sophistry are whiners.

[BurgundyNGold]

well the skins made a lot of cap mistakes notable brunell. we also got truly unlucky on barrow and coles' toe and attitude.
It seems like the new attitude fiscally is much better and I think they are fixing it, but sometimes fixing problems hurts more then not fixing it. After this year things should be a lot better assuming we learned our lesson.As with Coles, we have to live with our mistakes. Best way to solve this problem is like taking off a band aid -- one swift motion. Sure, it hurts for a little while, but before you know it, you're glad you did it that way as opposed to tugging at it continuously, which IMO is ultimately more painful.

As for Barrow, I really hope that guy not only plays but plays at least as well as Pierce. Otherwise, Barrow will be the new Brunnell on this MB.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

Youre not on any lists.....yet...videos...thats a different story.
:sfight:

[CNYSkinFan]

You know those of us who don't appreciate the team getting bent over on a trade shouldn't be characterized as whiners or Chicken Littles.

I am not calling you a whiner but I really think you are over valuing Coles. Ever since his injury he has not been a top flight receiver. And now he is a malcontent. No one was going to offer a high draft choice for him so we did the best we could and got value in return.

If we kept Coles it would of been a situation all year long. We didn't need that. Look at his comments now, this had gotten super ugly. Coles is Randy Moss with the td dances (or tds for that matter). We got a decent wide out with huge potential for a wideo out with a great past but a serious question mark for the future.

Did we get the lesser end of the deal? Yes. Was it so bad that Redskin fans should be ready to hang themselves? No.

and I still think that we are better off for it.

[Keino]

Keino, you've at least used argument, and I dont consider you a whiner on this-nor should anyone else-but the people who come here and just declare the season and the skins over because of all the moves and the dead cap room and Smoot possiblity leaving with just sophistry are whiners.
Fair Enough. Im personally and emotionally tied to this Team (As well as financially. I will be flying up from my new home in Tampa for every home game). When we make bad deals, I feel bad about it. Personally, the only person/entity I want screwing me is my wife........

I feel like Coles and the Jets screwed us and it's our own fault.

[BurgundyNGold]

Clayton over at ESPN seems to think it was a good deal for everyone, with nobody getting the better of it He scored both the Redskins and the Jets with a 3/4 for the trade.

Here's the link (about 1/8 of the way down) (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=2004380)

[Ramsey2Moss]

Clayton over at ESPN seems to think it was a good deal for everyone, with nobody getting the better of it He scored both the Redskins and the Jets with a 3/4 for the trade.

Here's the link (about 1/8 of the way down) (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=2004380)
I like Clayton. Nice man.

[akhhorus]

Fair Enough. Im personally and emotionally tied to this Team (As well as financially. I will be flying up from my new home in Tampa for every home game). When we make bad deals, I feel bad about it. Personally, the only person/entity I want screwing me is my wife........

I feel like Coles and the Jets screwed us and it's our own fault.

TMI TMI!!! I agree with you on a straight paper deal. BUT Coles is not the Coles we had in 03, nor the one they had in 02. Coles cant get down the field and get seperation from DBs. Moss can. And Moss will save cap room in the end. The dead money sucks, but its gone after the year.

[Skinz4lyfe]

Fair Enough. Im personally and emotionally tied to this Team (As well as financially. I will be flying up from my new home in Tampa for every home game). When we make bad deals, I feel bad about it. Personally, the only person/entity I want screwing me is my wife........

I feel like Coles and the Jets screwed us and it's our own fault.

Keino, I totally agree w/you. I've stated time and time again that we got screwed in this deal and its our own fault. However, I would never say that this move is gonna ruin our season. I understand that Coles "might" have been a problem next year but he needed to realize that because of the contract that he signed he's obligated to play for this team. I don't think he would have been as much of an issue in the locker room or anywhere else if he had stayed. But its all water under the bridge now. I'm over it and I'm hoping for Moss to stay healthy and perform well.

[Keino]

CNY, I dont think Im over-valuing Coles at all. He has been injured since week 3 (The Atlanta game) of 2003. He went on to post season totals of 82 catches and 1200 yards.....the most by any one WR on this team since Gary Clark I believe (Thats off of memory, so I could be very wrong).

Last year he was clearly missed on numerous occasion by poor reads and QB play. He was open much more than people who are now bashing him would like anyone to believe. Seperation was not His issue last year at all, based on my own personal observation. SHeesh, I recall on several occasions watching LC do Jumping Jacks trying to get the QB's attention.....both of them.

Again my issue here is the way we used (or didn't use) our leverage. We could have forced him to forfeit the 5 Mill signing bonus or remain unhappy. We should've been (IMO) resigned to truning him into Terry Glenn rather than taking any deal. We made a desperation move that wasn't necessary. At the very least we should've demanded a draft pick if we are going to trade for Potential over Production.

Am I happy that we will have a seemingly "Pro-Gibbs/Skins" lockerroom? Of course. Im saying we didn't get fair value which you yourself acknowledge. There has not been one argument that I've seen that supports the notion that we HAD to take less than equal value for Coles. What that value actually is, is very debateable. What is not debatable is that Moss-for Coles straight up is not equal value.

Is it ultimately better that Coles is not here? Sure, but that's not my point of contention. My point of contention is not realizing market value for your investment. My point of contention is trading just to get rid of the guy. Accepting any deal. Something that could be done pre-salary cap era without serious ramifications. Surely if they are willing to accept him with his toe injury, then they would be willing to give fair value also.

[CNYSkinFan]

CNY, I dont think Im over-valuing Coles at all. He has been injured since week 3 (The Atlanta game) of 2003. He went on to post season totals of 82 catches and 1200 yards.....the most by any one WR on this team since Gary Clark I believe (Thats off of memory, so I could be very wrong).

Last year he was clearly missed on numerous occasion by poor reads and QB play. He was open much more than people who are now bashing him would like anyone to believe. Seperation was not His issue last year at all, based on my own personal observation. SHeesh, I recall on several occasions watching LC do Jumping Jacks trying to get the QB's attention.....both of them.

Again my issue here is the way we used (or didn't use) our leverage. We could have forced him to forfeit the 5 Mill signing bonus or remain unhappy. We should've been (IMO) resigned to truning him into Terry Glenn rather than taking any deal. We made a desperation move that wasn't necessary. At the very least we should've demanded a draft pick if we are going to trade for Potential over Production.

Am I happy that we will have a seemingly "Pro-Gibbs/Skins" lockerroom? Of course. Im saying we didn't get fair value which you yourself acknowledge. There has not been one argument that I've seen that supports the notion that we HAD to take less than equal value for Coles. What that value actually is, is very debateable. What is not debatable is that Moss-for Coles straight up is not equal value.

Is it ultimately better that Coles is not here? Sure, but that's not my point of contention. My point of contention is not realizing market value for your investment. My point of contention is trading just to get rid of the guy. Accepting any deal. Something that could be done pre-salary cap era without serious ramifications. Surely if they are willing to accept him with his toe injury, then they would be willing to give fair value also.

It is my understanding that the problem with Coles toe injury was not the injury itself but the refusal to get surgery after the 2003 season. This made the toe athritic and it is now a chronic situation. The Coritsone shot in 2004 helped but not enough.

That being said I understand your points but I do not think the Redskiins had any leverage here. IF the trade was not done we either would of potentially had a cancer in the club house or releasing him and getting no value.

But only time will tell which one of us is right. Perhaps neither. We will see what happens.

[Keino]

We had a valid and enforceable contract that didn't require us to do anything. That was the leverage. Coles wanted out. We made the accomodations by taking less than we should've, and he gets rewarded with a new contract.

All that said, Im tired of saying how bad a deal this was. Santana Moss has my full support and I hope he flourishes under Gibbs' system with some of his "U" teamates. I hope he proves me wrong.

[IMALILTEAPOT]

im one of those who are panicking a little, and i have a good reason too. all my life of being a redskin fan I have been used to losing. every year i would think we would go to the playoffs, but we always lose. I have faith in Gibbs, but im looking at things differently. I think everyone on this site is always looking at things optimistically, but for some reason, im just tired of that. i need to see winning, its been too much. i think the cowboys game made me like this. damn patrick crayton