Is the Name Really that offensive?

[BtwnDaTackles]

i just want to know where everyone stands with this i mean on one hand the name has history and and tradition but on the other had so does the word NI@@ER.....and i know nobody would stand for that so even though the team is in our hearts do you think the name "REDSKIN" is a bit much or no?

[redwolf1218]

no not at all. i'm half native american and half irish. i like it. if you outlaw "redskins" then you outlaw chiefs, reds, indians, braves, and many others.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

its ashame you werent around for the last year and a half. there was alot of talk about this very subject. it was blown so far out of proportion that im still tired of talking about it.

the "n" word is not necessarily a term of endearment. i dont think the term redskin is meant too offend. i dont think its offensive IMO.....

[SusQhnnaSkin]

I'm a white guy, so I really want to be carefull assuming how any minority feels because I've never had to deal with being discriminated against or anything like that. But I would like to know how some of the millions of black Redskins fans feel about the subject. Because the are millions of black Redskins fans, sounds to me like the name "redskin" is prob. not offensive at all.

[BandWagon]

I had heard that a very small percentage of native americans found it offensive in a survey. I want to say it was less than 5%

[RedskinsVision]

saying the color of our skin isn't offensive imo. people do it all the time.. might not be the best way to handle it but.. we hear songs where they say, "it doesn't matter if you're white, black, brown, yellow, or red".. i don't mind it.. and i'm yellow myself :) <--- like this smiley

[redskin_rich]

Its just a word. Its the context that makes it good or bad. I have always believed we are honoring Native Americans and I also have American Indian ancestry.

[D-Ruck #8]

No, no and no. What is it like 10 Native Americans that are upset about it?

[danny's stogie]

saying the color of our skin isn't offensive imo. people do it all the time.. might not be the best way to handle it but.. we hear songs where they say, "it doesn't matter if you're white, black, brown, yellow, or red".. i don't mind it.. and i'm yellow myself :) <--- like this smiley

people who write songs like that end up late for a court date because of *cough* back problems

[cmdlost29]

If you called a team WhiteSkins, or PinkSkins, or BrownSkins, or BlackSkins, or YellowSkins, do you think it would offend someone?

That is how you tell if the name RedSkin is an offensive name or not. If the above offends you then the name Redskin is an offensive team name, in my opinion.

The referance to Nigg** is not at all acceptable in this arguement to me because the meaning of that word is meant to offend and is derogatory in nature. The term Red Skin has to do with the color of a cultures skin tone. If you called me Cracker Skin or Honkey Skin then you'd upset me because that is derogatory. If you called the team "The Washington Blue Eyes" or "The Washington Big Feet" then would those people with blue eyes or big feet have a problem with it?

The name Redskin was never intended to alienate or upset a culture. The American Indians were a people that were greatly wronged for 100's of years in our country there is no denying that. I would hope that they would not be offended by the team name RedSkins but I cannot say for sure if they are because I am not one of them.

If were on the subject of offensive team names the team name that there is no denying would be offensive in my opinion is The Cleveland Indians. That is offensive to me. Would you like to have a new baseball team names The Cleveland Europeans, or The Cleveland Africans, or The Cleveland Mexicans? All of those examples are offensive to me and I hope that one day the owners of the Cleveland Indians see that and change the name.

[Keino]

The name, just like the N word has it's roots as a racial perjorative. There is no honor in it, no matter what spin we try to put on it. Do I find the name offensive to my sensibilities? Yes. At the same time it is the team that represents my city and as a result I am very conflicted about it, but ultimately I see the team as a representative of me and my town and was a a fan long before I had any education about the plight of the Ameri-Indian.

I'd prefer we switch back to Braves, or change it to Warriors or Warlords. We could then not need to change our colors or our Ameri-Indian theme.

I do believe that our charicature/logo is a most Handsome and honorable representation.....moreso than any other Ameri-Indian Themed team in College or Pros. I also think that we as fans don't disrespect the Ameri-Indian with psuedo chants and the like. Chief Wahoo of the Cleveland Indians is WAY more disrespectful than any logo ever displayed by the Washington Football franchise.

As for the team's explanation the of the name......Potomac Warriors painting themselves red when going to war....that is complete bunk. George Preston Marshall named the team Redskins (From it's original Braves) while the franchise was still in Boston. Furthermore, we know that Marshall was the staunchest of racists and marketed this team as the "team of the south" in an era when non-wasps caught hell in the south. I'd argue it was quite calculated despite the fact that Marshall may have had some aboriginal American blood in him......

Of course all this is my opinion.

[RedskinsVision]

people who write songs like that end up late for a court date because of *cough* back problems

:lol1: as soon as i clicked on "submit reply" i was like.. "uh oh.. that sounds just like that song by whats his name." it's sad to see old great athletes fall from grace but oh well.. just beat it!

EDIT: nevermind.. it's the same person.. heehee!

[redskin_rich]

I'd prefer we switch back to Braves, or change it to Warriors or Warlords. We could then not need to change our colors or our Ameri-Indian theme.

Great post Keino. I just isolated this part because I have always wanted the name Warriors if we had to change. And of course, we would keep the same logo and colors.

[danny's stogie]

:lol1: as soon as i clicked on "submit reply" i was like.. "uh oh.. that sounds just like that song by whats his name." it's sad to see old great athletes fall from grace but oh well.. just beat it!

EDIT: wait.. i don't think we're talking about the same person.. i digress!

now i'm confused...he's not an athlete but he did beat it and he stands accused of a lot more offensive things than call someone a Redskin.

[padraic]

I read an old history book on the washington redskins that the name came from the days when they were in boston. It was ment to have something to do with the Boston tea party when they painted themselves red and dumped the tea. As for any link to this area i do not know how that could be since they were in Boston first. Im with Keino i do think it can be taken as an offensive name. Do i want it changed? Heck no, i love it Braves would be cool with me, but i also like Warpath. We would be the only team in the league that would not have a team that ended in a S.

[redwolf1218]

I'm a white guy, so I really want to be carefull assuming how any minority feels because I've never had to deal with being discriminated against or anything like that. But I would like to know how some of the millions of black Redskins fans feel about the subject. Because the are millions of black Redskins fans, sounds to me like the name "redskin" is prob. not offensive at all.
i'm basically a white guy too, but the native american thing is real big in my family. actually, it used to be just indian, now its native american, just like it used to be negro, then colored, then black, then African American. i really dont think Redskins or any of the other names were meant to be offensive, but quite the contrary, like it is commemorative, a reminder, if you will. the heritage should not be forgotten. native americans can choose to be proud of the reminders of their heritage, or not. i'm proud of it, as is my dad, and my son. i think it's the coolest name in sports. there is not greater rivalry in sports than the cowboys and the redskins.

[RedskinsVision]

now i'm confused...he's not an athlete but he did beat it and he stands accused of a lot more offensive things than call someone a Redskin.

lol.. sorry i didn't include enough info. .. should've said it's sad to see old great athletes fall from grace but it's sadder to see the king of pop going to jail. ........... now back to the regularly scheduled program.

keino that was a fine post.

[inevitable]

Being of Navajo decent, I'm very much offended by the name, I mean, if we changed it to the Washington Blackskins, that wouldn't stand, would it?

That being said, this organization was one of the few run with class during my childhood when i started watching football. Thats why I enjoy and appreciate the team today.

Hrm, i like the ring of that, The Washington Blackskins.

Furthermore, teams like the Cleveland Indians have the big smilin' Indian as their mascot. This is also offensive. I mean, if they were the Cleveland Blacks and their mascot was a big smilin' Black guy with KFC or something, I think that would be offensive to a black person.

Overall, team names should shy away from this kind of thing because it is bound to insult people. And since this country shouldn't step on minority rights, even if "only 10 people" object, those peoples opinions should be respected, particuarly when it comes to their heritage.

[redwolf1218]

Being of Navajo decent, I'm very much offended by the name, I mean, if we changed it to the Washington Blackskins, that wouldn't stand, would it?

That being said, this organization was one of the few run with class during my childhood when i started watching football. Thats why I enjoy and appreciate the team today.

Hrm, i like the ring of that, The Washington Blackskins.

Furthermore, teams like the Cleveland Indians have the big smilin' Indian as their mascot. This is also offensive. I mean, if they were the Cleveland Blacks and their mascot was a big smilin' Black guy with KFC or something, I think that would be offensive to a black person.

Overall, team names should shy away from this kind of thing because it is bound to insult people. And since this country shouldn't step on minority rights, even if "only 10 people" object, those peoples opinions should be respected, particuarly when it comes to their heritage.
that's socialism, not democracy. that's like saying we cant talk about God or have a Bible in the school library. you have red skin in the summer right? i know i do. no one really has black skin, it's brown.

[inevitable]

Ok I'm not going to dignify that with a response. Flagrant disregard for my heritage.

[redwolf1218]

Ok I'm not going to dignify that with a response. Flagrant disregard for my heritage.
i'm half Sioux. i meant no offense to Navajo.

[inevitable]

Well, maybe its just I'm from a family that is sensitive to that kinda thing, but all I know is people would raise 'cane if a team name even remotely referred to a racist remark about certain other skin colors.

[redwolf1218]

Well, maybe its just I'm from a family that is sensitive to that kinda thing, but all I know is people would raise 'cane if a team name even remotely referred to a racist remark about certain other skin colors.
you are right about that. i just dont consider it a racist remark. i dont want it all to be forgotten. i am proud to be called redskin. "dude you're red, but you're not burnt!" "yea, i'm half indian." i collect books, arrowheads, teach my son about it, i think indian names are cool. i feel lucky to have the heritage. i respect your stance on it and it is not my intention to offend you.

[RedskinsVision]

Well, maybe its just I'm from a family that is sensitive to that kinda thing, but all I know is people would raise 'cane if a team name even remotely referred to a racist remark about certain other skin colors.

i had a co-worker who lived with Pamunkey Native Americans in their reservation in central Virginia and i asked him if they thought the name "Redskins" was offensive and he said no. but if there are people that are offended by it then the name's not right.

[redwolf1218]

i had a co-worker who lived with Pamunkey Native Americans in their reservation in central Virginia and i asked him if they thought the name "Redskins" was offensive and he said no. but if there are people that are offended by it then something's not right.
true. but if there are a few that are offended, and a million that are not, then what does that mean? and you know from our past history on here that i respect your opinion.

[RedskinsVision]

true. but if there are a few that are offended, and a million that are not, then what does that mean?

good question.. does it mean those few people are overly sensitive or does it mean the majority are wrong and that it's been institutionalized in us to accept it? i dunno. did St. John's and Syracuse changed their names from Redmen and Orangmen to Red Storm and Orange because of pressure... or was it because they thought they were being moralistic?

[redwolf1218]

good question.. does it mean those few people are overly sensitive or does it mean the majority are wrong and that it's been institutionalized in us to accept it? i dunno. did St. John's and Syracuse changed their names from Redmen and Orangmen to Red Storm and Orange because of pressure... or was it because they thought they were being moralistic?
you have raised an even better question. what in the world is an orangeman? and then, what is orange? and what is a red storm? i just feel like if you gave everyone a thousand dollars, someone would complain about the denominations.

[War Hogg]

I think the first step to answering a question like this is to discover the origin of the word and how the term became used originally. Obviously the native americans didnt call themselves redskins so obviously it was used and created by the first white settlers in America...I personally can see whynative americans may feel offended and I see it being just the same as using the word nigger to describe black people. (or the word NEGRO for that matter)

[Fathead]

I can understand how some could be offended. But where does this end? I have some norse blood in me, should I be offended at the Vikings mascot?


Where the line is, I don't know. I do think the organization as a whole tries to be respectful.

[redwolf1218]

I think the first step to answering a question like this is to discover the origin of the word and how the term became used originally. Obviously the native americans didnt call themselves redskins so obviously it was used and created by the first white settlers in America...I personally can see whynative americans may feel offended and I see it being just the same as using the word nigger to describe black people. (or the word NEGRO for that matter)
the word Negro was the word of choice a long time ago. here in my family, which is just myself and my son, we dont use any word to describe anyone.

[redwolf1218]

I can understand how some could be offended. But where does this end? I have some norse blood in me, should I be offended at the Vikings mascot?


Where the line is, I don't know. I do think the organization as a whole tries to be respectful.
exactly.

[SkinsKY]

Really when it comes down to it, why would you name a team after something that you felt didn't convey power and respect and something you could be proud of. If we didn't respect Native Americans we wouldn't have this name because you don't name a team after something for which you have no respect.

[redwolf1218]

Really when it comes down to it, why would you name a team after something that you felt didn't convey power and respect and something you could be proud of. If we didn't respect Native Americans we wouldn't have this name because you don't name a team after something for which you have no respect.
exactly. this is what i was trying to say.

[Redskin006]

Really when it comes down to it, why would you name a team after something that you felt didn't convey power and respect and something you could be proud of. If we didn't respect Native Americans we wouldn't have this name because you don't name a team after something for which you have no respect.

true, very true.

[lakeskin]

If native Americans find it offensive then its offensive.

There really is no argument. You can argue all you want about how it portrays power and that it shows pride. But you cant argue with how people should feel. Native Americans find it offensive then its offensive. Just as if a person from another race or creed would find something offensive, who am I to tell them that its wrong for them to be offended. I have no idea wat its like to walk in their shoes.

[silverspring]

i am so sick of political correct bs. if we were perfectly politically correct then we wouldn't be able to speak unless we would all sound like robots.
Sure redskins is traditionally a prejudicial term. Traditionally, bad meant bad. Traditionally, sick meant someone was unhealthy. Traditionally, sweet only referred to sugared food, now i hear upstanding politicians using it. Traditions change.
I would rather someone twists a horrible tradition into a great one rather then just throwing it away.

[redwolf1218]

If native Americans find it offensive then its offensive.

There really is no argument. You can argue all you want about how it portrays power and that it shows pride. But you cant argue with how people should feel. Native Americans find it offensive then its offensive. Just as if a person from another race or creed would find something offensive, who am I to tell them that its wrong for them to be offended. I have no idea wat its like to walk in their shoes.
wrong. that is socialism. if one person is offended and a million are not, then in a democracy it's ok.

[lakeskin]

wrong. that is socialism. if one person is offended and a million are not, then in a democracy it's ok.

We're not talking about one person we're talking about a group of people.

This is not an issue up to vote. Its just how a group of people feel. You cant dictate to what a person finds offensive regardless of the number of people who feel the same way. Just because a majority feels a certain way doesnt make it ok. There was a time in this country when a majority if the citzens felt slavery was good. Is that "ok"? Form of government has nothing to do with how people should and shouldnt feel.

[silverspring]

We're not talking about one person we're talking about a group of people.

This is not an issue up to vote. Its just how a group of people feel. You cant dictate to what a person finds offensive regardless of the number of people who feel the same way. Just because a majority feels a certain way doesnt make it ok. There was a time in this country when a majority if the citzens felt slavery was good. Is that "ok"? Form of government has nothing to do with how people should and shouldnt feel.


There is a whole huge group of people called redskins fans and they all find the term "Dallas Cowboys" offensive, but I don't see anyone asking them to change their name.

[gibbsisgod]

no not at all. i'm half native american and half irish. i like it.
Red I'm 1/4 native american 3/4 irish we should get together and have a drink :lol1: And the name should stay the same

[redwolf1218]

We're not talking about one person we're talking about a group of people.

This is not an issue up to vote. Its just how a group of people feel. You cant dictate to what a person finds offensive regardless of the number of people who feel the same way. Just because a majority feels a certain way doesnt make it ok. There was a time in this country when a majority if the citzens felt slavery was good. Is that "ok"? Form of government has nothing to do with how people should and shouldnt feel.
yes, if the majority feels a certain way, then that is democracy. the majority never wanted slavery.

[Warrior 007]

I am an african american redskins fan for life and, I love the burgandy and Gold. However some of you guys don't get it. I studied this subject in college, its not about being politically correct or incorrect. Native americans have been one of the most oppressed ethnicity in the U.S.

If you are white you need to understand this point about minorities in the U.S. As a minority we are forced to learn everything about your culture, however by whites being the majority race in this country you are not forced to learn anything about other cultures. So the majority race is not forced to to pay attention to the minorities concerns or change them unless there is a group of people with power forces the change. So, just because some of you don't care or see how someone finds it offensive doesn't mean its not. Some of you may not care because you are looking at the subject from the majorities eyes.

In other words if native americans finds it offensive than it is. Don't let your love for a teams name cloud your judgement. If the redskins changed there names in september than I would be fine with it because I know its for the right reasons.

:Peace: My vote isto change the name to the Warriors

[lakeskin]

yes, if the majority feels a certain way, then that is democracy. the majority never wanted slavery.

So because a majority feels a certain way then that means those that dont should disregard their feelings and fall in line? ummmm, ok.

And you should freshen up on American history.

[lakeskin]

There is a whole huge group of people called redskins fans and they all find the term "Dallas Cowboys" offensive, but I don't see anyone asking them to change their name.

:lol1: Yeah thats same thing dude... :rolleyes:

[War Hogg]

the word Negro was the word of choice a long time ago. here in my family, which is just myself and my son, we dont use any word to describe anyone.

"Negro"...The word of choice??

If you and I take a trip to Africa in the morning and meet 3 million africans I will bet you my annual salary that not one person there will refer to themselves as a negro...That is just another name that was given to people of african decent by someone else...Kind of like redskin....

[redwolf1218]

I am an african american redskins fan for life and, I love the burgandy and Gold. However some of you guys don't get it. I studied this subject in college, its not about being politically correct or incorrect. Native americans have been one of the most oppressed ethnicity in the U.S.

If you are white you need to understand this point about minorities in the U.S. As a minority we are forced to learn everything about your culture, however by whites being the majority race in this country you are not forced to learn anything about other cultures. So the majority race is not forced to to pay attention to the minorities concerns or change them unless there is a group of people with power forces the change. So, just because some of you don't care or see how someone finds it offensive doesn't mean its not. Some of you may not care because you are looking at the subject from the majorities eyes.

In other words if native americans finds it offensive than it is. Don't let your love for a teams name cloud your judgement. If the redskins changed there names in september than I would be fine with it because I know its for the right reasons.

:Peace: My vote isto change the name to the Warriors
and what does Warriors mean?

[redwolf1218]

"Negro"...The word of choice??

If you and I take a trip to Africa in the morning and meet 3 million africans I will bet you my annual salary that not one person there will refer to themselves as a negro...That is just another name that was given to people of african decent by someone else...Kind of like redskin....
yes, Negro, i remember when that was the word you were supposed to use. after that it was "Colored" and after that is was "Black". then it was Afro American, and now it is African American.

[swheeler]

One of the problems with racial names is even if its meant with the utmost respect, the nature of sports is competition. If you think about it, the name "Redskins" can't have a positive effect on Dallas fans' view of Native Americans... I know I have less interest in actual cowboys because of the football team. Just hearing the word puts a bad impression in my head.

I've grown up with the Skins and I would hate to change the name, but I can understand where people are coming from on this...

Can we all agree that changing the Bullets was the most ridiculous idea ever?

[War Hogg]

yes, Negro, i remember when that was the word you were supposed to use. after that it was "Colored" and after that is was "Black". then it was Afro American, and now it is African American.

I wasnt alive when all of those names were used but African would have been just fine....Im sure the native americans wouldnt mind if the Snyder changed the Redskins name to the ACTUAL TRIBE as opposed to the name that someone else GAVE to them...Thats all im saying....

Washington Navahos or Cherokees sounds good to me...

[flave1969]

I have been uncomfortable with the name for many years now. However the team portrays itself you can never forget how Native Americans were treated in the past. There is no denying that Redskin was a rascist term in days gone by. As mild as it may seem, it is not acceptable to call an Asian "a yellowman", and those of African descent do not find any of the legion of names they were called acceptable.

The Skins as a team have the power to do the right thing. It isn't about political correctness, it is about respecting an ancient people. English is a very descriptive language and unfortunately that means bad as well as good. The fact is it's original use was not positive, and that was the case for many decades.

When I read "Bury my heart at wounded knee". I don't think I have ever finished a book feeling more despair at the capabilities of man. When you tie in the name Redskin to that era, it is as potent as the N-Word, and as such it makes me uncomfortable.

This is my opinion, I would be all for change of the team name.

[redwolf1218]

I wasnt alive when all of those names were used but African would have been just fine....Im sure the native americans wouldnt mind if the Snyder changed the Redskins name to the ACTUAL TRIBE as opposed to the name that someone else GAVE to them...Thats all im saying....

Washington Navahos or Cherokees sounds good to me...
it would probably be Algonquians, from northern Va. Cherokees were in North Carolina, not sure about Navajos.

[flave1969]

it would probably be Algonquians, from northern Va. Cherokees were in North Carolina, not sure about Navajos.

Navajos call New Mexico, Utah, Arizona home I think.

[openallnight]

While we're on the subject . . .
I find the Vikings offensive to Norse people, Giants offensive to large people, the Buccanears offensive to pirates, the Packers offensive to homosexual people, the 49ers offensive to people born in 1949 and 49 year olds, the Patriots offensive to country men, the Chargers offensive to credit card holders, the Steelers offensive to mill workers, the Raiders offensive to ATF agents, the Saints offensive to catholics, the Chiefs offensive to presidents, the Bills offensive to people named William, the Texans offensive to people from TX, the Browns offensive to people with stained drawers, the Titans offensive to Greeks, the Cowboys offensive to ranchers, boys and people that where big hats.

[Spence]

if you outlaw "redskins" then you outlaw chiefs, reds, indians, braves, and many others.Just for the record, the name Reds in Cincinnati Reds refers to Redstockings, not Amerindians.

[Spence]

The Potomac River takes its name from an Amerindian tribe. Pretty close to and identified with D.C.

[cmdlost29]

that's socialism, not democracy. that's like saying we cant talk about God or have a Bible in the school library. you have red skin in the summer right? i know i do. no one really has black skin, it's brown.

We can't talk about God in certain places. We can't have a bible in schools. Does that mean were a Socialist nation now? :rolleyes:

[cmdlost29]

true. but if there are a few that are offended, and a million that are not, then what does that mean? and you know from our past history on here that i respect your opinion.

In our country if something offends someone like the Pledge of Aligance then we seem to change how we do things all the time to suit the needs of others.

[cmdlost29]

If native Americans find it offensive then its offensive.

There really is no argument. You can argue all you want about how it portrays power and that it shows pride. But you cant argue with how people should feel. Native Americans find it offensive then its offensive. Just as if a person from another race or creed would find something offensive, who am I to tell them that its wrong for them to be offended. I have no idea wat its like to walk in their shoes.

You nailed what I was trying to say earlier. Good post. The question raised was "Is the name offensive?" which only those people offended by it could say.

[smoak]

good question.. does it mean those few people are overly sensitive or does it mean the majority are wrong and that it's been institutionalized in us to accept it? i dunno. did St. John's and Syracuse changed their names from Redmen and Orangmen to Red Storm and Orange because of pressure... or was it because they thought they were being moralistic?

Syracuse isn't the Orangemen any more? Whats an Oreangeman any way?

[joethefan]

The name, just like the N word has it's roots as a racial perjorative. There is no honor in it, no matter what spin we try to put on it. Do I find the name offensive to my sensibilities? Yes. At the same time it is the team that represents my city and as a result I am very conflicted about it, but ultimately I see the team as a representative of me and my town and was a a fan long before I had any education about the plight of the Ameri-Indian.

I'd prefer we switch back to Braves, or change it to Warriors or Warlords. We could then not need to change our colors or our Ameri-Indian theme.

I do believe that our charicature/logo is a most Handsome and honorable representation.....moreso than any other Ameri-Indian Themed team in College or Pros. I also think that we as fans don't disrespect the Ameri-Indian with psuedo chants and the like. Chief Wahoo of the Cleveland Indians is WAY more disrespectful than any logo ever displayed by the Washington Football franchise.

As for the team's explanation the of the name......Potomac Warriors painting themselves red when going to war....that is complete bunk. George Preston Marshall named the team Redskins (From it's original Braves) while the franchise was still in Boston. Furthermore, we know that Marshall was the staunchest of racists and marketed this team as the "team of the south" in an era when non-wasps caught hell in the south. I'd argue it was quite calculated despite the fact that Marshall may have had some aboriginal American blood in him......

Of course all this is my opinion.

Very good point...I'd like to add that Bobby Mitchell the first Black player on the team pointed out that the Skins was the last Team in professional football to hire a Black player and out famous fight song "Hail to the Redskins song used to say, "Fight for old Dixie" referring to the South...but it was later changed to DC.

I try my best not to call Native Americans Indians because the name Indian is not the correct name for that culture.. If they aren't from India, then how can we call them Indians...That's why Native Americans is the true name that we should refer to them as. And I might add that if the name Redskin is offensive to them, then we should take that into acount, but what has the American Government taken into account when it comes to Native American's anyway? Nothing. Doesn't make it right though.

[RedskinsDave]

If we're going to pick a tribal name, make sure it's a tribe that worked under a salary cap.

[bwparker]

Whenever this comes up in my family I like to say:

It could be worse, we could be the Dirty Washington Savages. Seriously though, it has NO negative connotation for ME , and it would be heart breaking if we had to change it.

But, the term(Redskin) was common and offensive at one time and I would never use it in reference to an actual Native American. Which leads me to believe it is at the very best a borderline term. However, the courts have upheld our right to use it. SO, if I were Native American, I would choose to embrace it rather than shun it(much like African Americans have with "the N word"), robbing the word of its power.

[Spence]

If we're going to pick a tribal name, make sure it's a tribe that worked under a salary cap.The Creek Indians operated under a salary cap and were quite stringent about it. When the neighboring Pawnee tribe violated the cap back in 1581, it led to a war and the Creeks massacred over 400 Pawnee warriors at Broken Bonus.

[RedskinsDave]

The Creek Indians operated under a salary cap and were quite stringent about it. When the neighboring Pawnee tribe violated the cap back in 1581, it led to a war and the Creeks massacred over 400 Pawnee warriors at Broken Bonus.

And they had to sell off some tepees, hence the name "pawn shop."

[CNYSkinFan]

The Creek Indians operated under a salary cap and were quite stringent about it. When the neighboring Pawnee tribe violated the cap back in 1581, it led to a war and the Creeks massacred over 400 Pawnee warriors at Broken Bonus.


Now that is cap hell

[redwolf1218]

Indian names are cool.

[flave1969]

While we're on the subject . . .
I find the Vikings offensive to Norse people, Giants offensive to large people, the Buccanears offensive to pirates, the Packers offensive to homosexual people, the 49ers offensive to people born in 1949 and 49 year olds, the Patriots offensive to country men, the Chargers offensive to credit card holders, the Steelers offensive to mill workers, the Raiders offensive to ATF agents, the Saints offensive to catholics, the Chiefs offensive to presidents, the Bills offensive to people named William, the Texans offensive to people from TX, the Browns offensive to people with stained drawers, the Titans offensive to Greeks, the Cowboys offensive to ranchers, boys and people that where big hats.


I just find your post offensive full stop.

[CNYSkinFan]

I am torn on the issue of the name of the Washington Redskins. I really can see both sides of the issue.

On one hand the term Redskin was clearly used as a derogatory term towards a race of people. This is an important distinction for me. I have no problem with the Cleveland indians or Boston Celtics for example. But the term Redskin was a racial insult used to dehumanize a race of people making it easier for us to steal their land and practice genocide upon them.

But on the other hand, the Washington Redskins have never used that term in those ways. In fact during the 70+ years they and their fans have honored the American Indian by using their image in a positive ways. They are depicted as warriors fighting for the betterment of the entire tribe. Even our board pays homage to the different tribes.

I am truly split right down the middle. I am not sure the Redskins should be forced, legally to change their name. But if they did I can understand the motivation for doing so.

[smoak]

There are a lot of really great arguments from folks like keino redwolf, skinsky, ocskinfan, warrior007, and others...

I can't say I'd add much that hasn't been said.

Yes our first owner, George Preston Marshall, was a bigoted racist and maybe the team name was born out of hate. Maybe it wasn't. I don't know. I do know that now it is a symbol of deep pride for me and if we changed it, out of hurt I may no longer be a fan. I'm not a DC fan... I'm a Redskins fan. I need to go to another thread because it makes me very sad to think something that I love so dearly could be viewed in such a negative light.

I will say that maybe if Redskins fans (myself included) did a better job reaching out to the Native American people that maybe there could be more of a sharing between both of out POVs... but how do we accomoplish that? Would Native Americans even want to spend time with a group of culturally diverse NFL fans? I don't know. But my heart has always ached at the history of hatred we have in this country and the crimes we've committed against people... and continue to commit.

Maybe it is because I am such a mutt (with a Native American ancestor on my father's side), but I've never understood racial tension or hating someone because of their race or cultural background... I've also never understood ethnic or cultural pride. Like I said, I'm a mutt.

[RedskinsDave]

Okay people, Marshall's racism aside, the team is called the Redskins BECAUSE they were called the Braves, then when they moved to play in Fenway, they wanted to be associated with the Red Sox. The name was changed to the Redskins to do just that.

[warpaint]

no not at all. i'm half native american and half irish. i like it. if you outlaw "redskins" then you outlaw chiefs, reds, indians, braves, and many others.
i am half native american also, my mother was from the lumbee tribe , i attended and graduated from pembroke state college which at one time was just for native americans, i lived in this town for 4 years , most of locals there are native american , when i was the the school consisted of roughly 20% ,native americans , almost everyone there when i was there were redskins fans as well as myself, i never never once heard anyone say anything about the name .

[Keino]

Okay people, Marshall's racism aside, the team is called the Redskins BECAUSE they were called the Braves, then when they moved to play in Fenway, they wanted to be associated with the Red Sox. The name was changed to the Redskins to do just that.


LOL. Thats like the 5th version I've heard explaning the origin of the team name........

[smoak]

i am half native american also, my mother was from the lumbee tribe , i attended and graduated from pembroke state college which at one time was just for native americans, i lived in this town for 4 years , most of locals there are native american , when i was the the school consisted of roughly 20% ,native americans , almost everyone there when i was there were redskins fans as well as myself, i never never once heard anyone say anything about the name .

That is very encouraging. Thanks for posting! I've always heard that not many Native Americans are offended, but you just don't know what to believe... I personally think the symbol is on that honors Native Americans but I can see the issues with Chief Wahoo of the Cleveland Indians.

[RedskinsDave]

When they opened the National Museum of the American Indian, I saw more than a few people with Washington Redskins gear on. One guy was even singing on stage with a Skins hat on. I think if it were soooo offensive then these folks would certainly not wear this stuff.

Also, as far as not saying "indian", they say that themselves. There's the Indian Health Service in HHS the Bureau of Indian Affairs of DoI, not to mention the name of the Museum which I am quite sure was named by American Indians.

[RedskinsDave]

LOL. Thats like the 5th version I've heard explaning the origin of the team name........

Well check and see when they changed the name and when they moved to Fenway. It's the same year.

[redskinz#1fan]

I think that we need to look at the big picture here. This is a name of a football team. It is not a racist remark. If someone is really that shallow of a person to let the name of a football team offend them, then they need counseling. Everyday in life something occurs that we don't like or could offend us, but we as civilized and intelligent adults have to separate the bs from the real. The name needs to be embraced. People should be proud that there is a pro team named after them. Don't make this any more then what it already is. We need to just focus on getting our team back into the lime light that they were years ago. Personally I don't give a damn what you call the team, as long as we are putting up the numbers. I didn't hear too many complaints when the redskins were winning the 3 superbowl rings. Because then the REDSKINS were the Football Champions of the WORLD.

LETS JUST REMEMBER ONE THING- I GO TO SEVERAL GAMES A YEAR. I HAVE SEATS IN THE BOXES AND IN THE STANDS. THE ONLY THING THAT I REALLY NOTICE ON SUNDAYS IS NOT THE DIVIDING OF PEOPLE, BUT HOW ABOUT 91,000 FANS OF EVERY DIFFERENT RACE,ETHNIC BACKGROUND AND FINANCIAL STATUS COME TOGETHER AS ONE TO FORM THE BEST 12TH MAN IN THE LEAGUE. ALL THESE DIFFERENT PEOPLE AS 1! LETS TALK ABOUT THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :typeR2:

[J-Rod]

I, like most, am torn on the subject. I identify many fond memories with the name and the logo but if they change the name then fine, I'll adjust. If not, fine again. Football is a game for all races, creeds, religions, etc.

With that in mind I do have a funny story a professor told me in a civil liberties class in college:

In the late 1990's, a boys 12-14 AAU basketball team from Oklahoma (I believe) called the Redskins was set upon by a group of bureaucrats saying that the name was offensive. The boys did not want to change the name but children have now power in our society so a change was imminent. So the team, who had five Native American members, decided to vote on a new team name. Oddly enough, the name in which they came up with caused no stir within the bureaucratic world. They would later be beaten in the national AAU tournament as the "Fighting Whities".

As a caucasian, should I be offended?

[bwparker]

Maybe it is because I am such a mutt (with a Native American ancestor on my father's side), but I've never understood racial tension or hating someone because of their race or cultural background... I've also never understood ethnic or cultural pride. Like I said, I'm a mutt.
I have always felt the same way and I am caucasian. I'm half-jewish, which is about as "exotic" as my heritage gets(though that isn't an ethnicity). I'm pretty much a European mutt: German and Russian(there is the Jew) and French and Brit, mainly. I've alway thought that I felt this way because I haven't had to be subjected to recieving end of racism.

Racism is a frustrating issue for me because its only an issue because its an issue. If everyone just dropped it, just ignored it, just stopped caring, it would go away(and its more lasting effects would eventually be gone as well). You can't say that about anything else. Abortion or Gay marriage or the death penalty won't go away if we forget they are issues. But if everyone forgot what race and racism was, it would never come up again. All racism is(and ever was) is an excuse for people hate others. Its total BS.

NOTE: I am not making any comment on what public policies we should have. This is merely about social cohesion.

[openallnight]

Well check and see when they changed the name and when they moved to Fenway. It's the same year.
I always thought it was because William "Lone Star" Dietz brought in a bunch of players of american-indian descent . . .

[Warrior 007]

and what does Warriors mean?

Warriors does not refer to native americans. Any race or ethnicity can be a warrior. It is a term used for toughness.

:sfight:

[Warrior 007]

I think that we need to look at the big picture here. This is a name of a football team. It is not a racist remark. If someone is really that shallow of a person to let the name of a football team offend them, then they need counseling. Everyday in life something occurs that we don't like or could offend us, but we as civilized and intelligent adults have to separate the bs from the real. The name needs to be embraced. People should be proud that there is a pro team named after them. Don't make this any more then what it already is. We need to just focus on getting our team back into the lime light that they were years ago. Personally I don't give a damn what you call the team, as long as we are putting up the numbers. I didn't hear too many complaints when the redskins were winning the 3 superbowl rings. Because then the REDSKINS were the Football Champions of the WORLD.

LETS JUST REMEMBER ONE THING- I GO TO SEVERAL GAMES A YEAR. I HAVE SEATS IN THE BOXES AND IN THE STANDS. THE ONLY THING THAT I REALLY NOTICE ON SUNDAYS IS NOT THE DIVIDING OF PEOPLE, BUT HOW ABOUT 91,000 FANS OF EVERY DIFFERENT RACE,ETHNIC BACKGROUND AND FINANCIAL STATUS COME TOGETHER AS ONE TO FORM THE BEST 12TH MAN IN THE LEAGUE. ALL THESE DIFFERENT PEOPLE AS 1! LETS TALK ABOUT THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :typeR2:


I have a question for you? Are you a minority, my guess is that you are not!!! You are the shallow person to disregard the feelings of a entire race of people for a football team? This is the same ignorant thinking that has kept people oppressed for years.

:sfight:

[redwolf1218]

i've always been amazed whenever i'm in the northern VA and DC area, at all the different types of people from all over the world who live there, and it seems the Redskins bring everyone together. i figure the name will eventually be changed because it offends someone. then "in God we trust" will be removed from money. the word "God" will be removed from the pledge of allegiance. and already my son cant play dodgeball anymore. hell they dont even keep score in soccer games because someone might get their feelings hurt. my point is, it's just a name of a football team and there are bigger things going on, but it's a sign of the times. to answer the thread question, yes the name offends someone, and as a result will probably be changed soon IMO. i'm offended at how easily everyone is offended.

[redskinz#1fan]

I have a question for you? Are you a minority, my guess is that you are not!!! You are the shallow person to disregard the feelings of a entire race of people for a football team? This is the same ignorant thinking that has kept people oppressed for years.

:sfight:

First of all You shouldn't assume anything about my ethic background. In todays world who is really the minority? Because things sure have changed over the years, and the minorities are now the majority. I am a white male. I have a black wife and a mix daughter, so please don't talk to me about me being a racist or me oppressing any race. I am the most open minded person that you would ever know, but I don't let the small things like the name of a football team upset me. I have been through much discrimination and racism in my life time, because of the decisions that I have made about who I want to be with. So please, once again don't jump to conclusions about who I am and how I feel about being discriminated. Once again there will be something that occurs everyday in this world that could offend someone. What you need to ask yourself is are you going to be the person that is strong or weak. Because the strong person is the one that would be able to see that the name of a football team doesn't mean that you are any less quality of a person. Once again IF YOU ARE A TRUE REDSKINS FAN, THEN YOU KNOW THAT EVERY SUNDAY WE( MEANING EVERY RACE UNDER THE SUN) GATHERS TOGETHER TO CHEER ON OUR WASHINGTON REDSKINS. Last time I was there I didn't see anyone that looked like they were upset to be there. I am not trying to take anything from anyone's heritage, I am just saying that we are talking about a football team here. Thats it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :weak:

[OCSkinzFan]

I'm Scotch and Irish.
They've named two kinds of whiskey after my heritage.
I would be proud if there were a football team named the Washington Whiskeys to denigrate and honor my people.

For all you DC and MD HR folks you’ll find me in OC this Sat at the St. Patrick’s parade where people of every hue pretend they’re Irish just to make drunken asses of themselves. Does this event denigrate the great heritage and memory of the oppressed Irish of the past?
Sure it does, and it’s fun too. So in loving jest, it becomes an honor.

The name Redskins does the same thing. It commodifys something serious in a fun way, and ends up bestowing a loving honor that demonstrates respect.

[War Hogg]

This may not be the forum to discuss something of this magnitude (Ive noticed that none of the admins and most of the older members have not responded). However, I do find it very funny how alot of posters here try to turn the REDSKIN name into some small insignificant issue by saying things like its just football or that its just a fun way to show respect to the native american culture.

Bottom line is that native americans dont refer to themselves as "Redskins" and it in no way uplifts thier heritage. The name was used to describe their culture by early american settlers that obviously didnt give a damn about thier culture or heritage....

[Warrior 007]

First of all You shouldn't assume anything about my ethic background. In todays world who is really the minority? Because things sure have changed over the years, and the minorities are now the majority. I am a white male. I have a black wife and a mix daughter, so please don't talk to me about me being a racist or me oppressing any race. I am the most open minded person that you would ever know, but I don't let the small things like the name of a football team upset me. I have been through much discrimination and racism in my life time, because of the decisions that I have made about who I want to be with. So please, once again don't jump to conclusions about who I am and how I feel about being discriminated. Once again there will be something that occurs everyday in this world that could offend someone. What you need to ask yourself is are you going to be the person that is strong or weak. Because the strong person is the one that would be able to see that the name of a football team doesn't mean that you are any less quality of a person. Once again IF YOU ARE A TRUE REDSKINS FAN, THEN YOU KNOW THAT EVERY SUNDAY WE( MEANING EVERY RACE UNDER THE SUN) GATHERS TOGETHER TO CHEER ON OUR WASHINGTON REDSKINS. Last time I was there I didn't see anyone that looked like they were upset to be there. I am not trying to take anything from anyone's heritage, I am just saying that we are talking about a football team here. Thats it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :weak:


Your Quote says......... I don't let the small things like the name of a football team upset me. What you need to ask yourself is are you going to be the person that is strong or weak. Because the strong person is the one that would be able to see that the name of a football team doesn't mean that you are any less quality of a person.

After reading your response to my quote shows me how right I am about you. To call someone being offended small, shows my point how some individuals in the majority race sometimes doesn't pay attention to the feelings of a minority race. You proved my point even more pay calling it an issue of being strong or weak...... thats just stupid. Just because in your mind it doesn't put down native americans doesn't mean its not offensive. The problem is having a racist name for a football team will make individuals feel comfortable with racist terms. Thats the whole disrespect of the culture. Nice try for a comback but the fact of the matter is the name redskins is wrong and racist.

:sfight:

[redskinz#1fan]

Your Quote says......... I don't let the small things like the name of a football team upset me. What you need to ask yourself is are you going to be the person that is strong or weak. Because the strong person is the one that would be able to see that the name of a football team doesn't mean that you are any less quality of a person.

After reading your response to my quote shows me how right I am about you. To call someone being offended small, shows my point how some individuals in the majority race sometimes doesn't pay attention to the feelings of a minority race. You proved my point even more pay calling it an issue of being strong or weak...... thats just stupid. Just because in your mind it doesn't put down native americans doesn't mean its not offensive. The problem is having a racist name for a football team will make individuals feel comfortable with racist terms. Thats the whole disrespect of the culture. Nice try for a comback but the fact of the matter is the name redskins is wrong and racist.

:sfight:

Let me first of all apologize to you and anyone else that may have taken offense to anything that I have said. I will be the bigger man in this situation. I was just responding to a thread that was on the site. I have my opinion about this subject and you and everyone else has theirs. Never in my life have I been classified as being racist or discriminating against anyone, especially since my family is of several different races. I understand the point that your trying to make about how the name could be offensive, but I was just asking that you try and look @ it in the light that I was looking at it. When I joined this site it was to discuss football and my passion for the redskins. That is still my true intentions here. I am a die hard fan of this team, regardless of what their name may be. So if they change it or keep it the same, my motive we still be the same here. To support this team in any way that I can, and to support the fans of this team in anyway that I can.

[OCSkinzFan]

After reading your response to my quote shows me how right I am about you. To call someone being offended small, shows my point how some individuals in the majority race sometimes doesn't pay attention to the feelings of a minority race. You proved my point even more pay calling it an issue of being strong or weak...... thats just stupid. Just because in your mind it doesn't put down native americans doesn't mean its not offensive. The problem is having a racist name for a football team will make individuals feel comfortable with racist terms. Thats the whole disrespect of the culture. Nice try for a comback but the fact of the matter is the name redskins is wrong and racist.


Nice try! But how bout, words can't be racist. And words change over time. I have NEVER, NEVER EVER heard the term Redskin used as a racist comment or putdown. Tomboy used to be an insult. Now it's not, there are hundreds of examples of this.

If you have the ability to read, maybe you should read other posters in here that said many American Indians wear Redskin clothes and are Redskin Fans, and MOST Native Americans are not offended by the name Redskins not because the are made to, they want to.

Some people just like to have somthing to bitch about.

Bottom line , if you don't like the word Redskins, go start your own team.
Call'em Palefaces or whatever.

As for me and my friends (people of every hue, including Native Americans), we will continue to support the greatest football team of all, The Washington Redskins!

Now go away.

[Keino]

I was really pleased that up until recently, this thread,which is always a highly charged emotional topic was kept on a respectful and civil level. NOBODY has the right to invalidate someone else's opinion just because they disagree.

Whether you think the name should change or not, there is no reason to be disrespectful to fellow fans of the team. Im sorry some of you chose to go in that direction.

Words can't be racist? LOL. Racist is an adjective. It modifies nouns. Thoughts, words and deeds all can be racist......

[flave1969]

Nice try! But how bout, words can't be racist. And words change over time. I have NEVER, NEVER EVER heard the term Redskin used as a racist comment or putdown. Tomboy used to be an insult. Now it's not, there are hundreds of examples of this.

If you have the ability to read, maybe you should read other posters in here that said many American Indians wear Redskin clothes and are Redskin Fans, and MOST Native Americans are not offended by the name Redskins not because the are made to, they want to.

Some people just like to have somthing to bitch about.

Bottom line , if you don't like the word Redskins, go start your own team.
Call'em Palefaces or whatever.

As for me and my friends (people of every hue, including Native Americans), we will continue to support the greatest football team of all, The Washington Redskins!

Now go away.


Try do a search on Google.com and see whether the term Redskin is offensive to people. In the first three pages you will find protest sites, dictionary descriptions, websites on the origin of the name. There are obviously many people that still find the word offensive. Are they just bitching, all of them?

I am not sure what you mean about words cant be rascist, but if I take it at face value then a more stupid statement I have never heard. If you try and assert that the words are not rascist but the people who say them are, then you are giving free reign to people to use these words. Fact is throughout history man has coined terms that become embedded in langauge to the point of everyday use, there is no need to list them all we all know what they are.

I notice you use in your post the term "American Indian". That in itself was offensive to native Americans because it was factually incorrect. The first European settlers thought they had found India. Just because many Native Americans support our beloved team does not mean that the name is OK. They have made their choice. It does not mean that the many who find it rascist are wrong. My mother in law could not bare Rap music because of the frequent use of the N word. She only had to think back thirty years when that was all she was called on a daily basis, it would make her cringe. The context of the word has changed for sure, but it hurt her deeply to hear it every time.

Who are you to say that the word "Redskin" still does not hurt people because time has moved on. Just because you have never never ever heard it used as a rascist term does not mena it isnt. The native American was decimated by Europeans like me, and then by the earliest American settlers for years to follow, they still get a raw deal in many places in Arizona, New Mexico and Utah. You dont hear the decimation of their society called a Holocaust often but it was. To call words just words is denying what sets human beings apart. They are descriptive and yes meanings do change over time, but the old meanings never go away. Too be Gay still can mean too be happy, it just isn't used in that way any more. The term Redskin is rascist in origin and nothing will ever change that. Some people are big enough to ignore it, but many despise it. You cannot ignore that.

[flave1969]

I was really pleased that up until recently, this thread,which is always a highly charged emotional topic was kept on a respectful and civil level. NOBODY has the right to invalidate someone else's opinion just because they disagree.

Whether you think the name should change or not, there is no reason to be disrespectful to fellow fans of the team. Im sorry some of you chose to go in that direction.

Words can't be racist? LOL. Racist is an adjective. It modifies nouns. Thoughts, words and deeds all can be racist......

Very well said.

[Keino]

Very well said.

Likewise.......

[dj_stouty]

What once used to be a word slung around to deface a race, is now being used to glorify them. I have no problem with that. If anything, as a fan of the Redskins, I have gained an even bigger appreciation for Native Americans and their wonderful culture. I probably wouldn't have had that opportunity if they were named something else.

[Gump84]

Well, after reading through this thread, I figured I'd put in my thoughts and then see if anyone wants to yell at me about it.

Like what was essentially said before, words are words and people are racist. If people just didn't care about the meaning of certain words and took them at face value, then they wouldn't matter anymore. I just can't understand why people care so much about particular words yet don't seem to distinguish between people using them maliglantly and people using them otherwise. The term Redskin is offensive to some, but why? People can call me "cracker" all they want, and I have been called it before, just as many blacks have been called "nigger". The fact of the matter is that people who use these words against other people of other races are below the people who are forced to receive the insult. What did I do when I was called the "offensive" term? I ignored it and felt sorry for the person who said it. Additionally, certain races call each other their "derogatory term". Whites calling each other "cracker", blacks calling each other "nigger". People seemingly choose when to be offended and when to be not offended.

When I say "Redskins", I'm not referring to any group of people other than 52 guys who like to play football on Sundays in the fall.

I understand that some people are offended and respect that, but I just can't figure out why it bothers them so much. Any insight would be appreciated.

[RedskinsDave]

I notice you use in your post the term "American Indian". That in itself was offensive to native Americans because it was factually incorrect. The first European settlers thought they had found India. Just because many Native Americans support our beloved team does not mean that the name is OK. They have made their choice.

So I guess all the folks who built the NATIONAL MUSEUM OF THE AMERICAN INDIAN didn't ask any native americans their opinion on the name of the place. Trust me, if it were sooo offensive to people at the opening ceremony there certainly would not be a guy on stage in a Redskins cap.

[ryflan47]

wow this couldn't be more offensive than my younger sister calling me a "idiot"
its as simple as that

[Dzyde]

Well see it like this. To Native americans were the white man, to us there the red man blacks are black and so on. Theres no racism in that its a way of describing one self without discriminating.

[flave1969]

So I guess all the folks who built the NATIONAL MUSEUM OF THE AMERICAN INDIAN didn't ask any native americans their opinion on the name of the place. Trust me, if it were sooo offensive to people at the opening ceremony there certainly would not be a guy on stage in a Redskins cap.

Dave, I had the privelege of spending 10 days in Navajo country in 1994. I stayed in Albuquerque, a small place called Gallup and in Flagstaff. I can tell you for the fact that there are many, many Native Americans, who do find the name Indian offensive. This is mainly because they feel it strips away from an identity that has been eroded away to virtually nothing for the past two hundred years. The Navajo don't even have a direct word for Indian. Being on the Checkerboard reservation was an extremely eye opening experience for me and it is a world away from the Museum in Maryland.

I will tell you that their are many native Americans on the checkerboard who know very little outside New Mexico and Arizona and many have never heard the term Indian but there are some very militant and fundamentalist in their outlook.

The point is these names will be very offensive to some people and mean nothing to others. It just isn't a valid argument to say just because something is alright for some it should be alright for everyone. You may well be very comfortable with it, the guy up on stage wearing the Redskin cap may be comfortable with it. But I have met people face to face who are not, and I felt suitably chastised for using the name Indian.

Slightly off topic but interesting none the less. In this country we have many Indian, Pakistani and Sri Lankan people of at least five generations now. The rascists love to call them all Pakis. They all get tarred with the same brush because of the proximity of the nations. What is even more perverse Indians will use "Paki" as a rascist term against Pakistanis and Pakistanis call Indians "Chuds". These are only words but they have rascist overtones in everyday use.

The assertion earlier by OC that words are just words is misguided.

[Redskin006]

Quite honestly I don't believe that most Native Americans mind the name. I know many Native Americans, being that I live in Arizona, and I ask them if they are offended by the name. Not a single Native American has told me they are offended. Although I have not surveyed every Native American out there, I know that a great deal of them are not offended on. On the flipside, there are those who are offended by the name "Redskins." Although they may want the name changed, it probably won't happen because the majority of Native Americans do not mind our team name or a lot of Native Americans have never even heard of the Redskins.

[flave1969]

Well, after reading through this thread, I figured I'd put in my thoughts and then see if anyone wants to yell at me about it.

Like what was essentially said before, words are words and people are racist. If people just didn't care about the meaning of certain words and took them at face value, then they wouldn't matter anymore. I just can't understand why people care so much about particular words yet don't seem to distinguish between people using them maliglantly and people using them otherwise. The term Redskin is offensive to some, but why? People can call me "cracker" all they want, and I have been called it before, just as many blacks have been called "nigger". The fact of the matter is that people who use these words against other people of other races are below the people who are forced to receive the insult. What did I do when I was called the "offensive" term? I ignored it and felt sorry for the person who said it. Additionally, certain races call each other their "derogatory term". Whites calling each other "cracker", blacks calling each other "nigger". People seemingly choose when to be offended and when to be not offended.

When I say "Redskins", I'm not referring to any group of people other than 52 guys who like to play football on Sundays in the fall.

I understand that some people are offended and respect that, but I just can't figure out why it bothers them so much. Any insight would be appreciated.


I believe there are some words that simply cannot be seperated from the rascist. The N word is the prime example. It came into existence as a rascist term, it didn't exist prior to that. The term Redskin is descriptive in its nature and is obviously two words made into one. The Rascist element came in after. I believe our team is very repectful to the native American, I think our badge is fantastic. I am willing to give credence to both sides of the argument because there are obviously many native Americans who have no problem with the name.

What I object to is the lack of sensitivity some show to the subject. I also believe that seperating a man's words from the man himself is a cop out. Nothing we say would have meaning otherwise. I don't believe you can do this. If you want to know why the N word and the word Redskin is offensive to some, take a look at the history of the people who suffered the words, then you will see why it is offensive even today. The world moves on and we have come a long way. But the day we switch off and forget the true meaning of some of these words is the day the next bunch of Rascists moves in and starts a whole new bunch of terms that become everyday language.

[flave1969]

Further to my previous posts it seems that as asserted by many here including Dave, that many many native Americans do not feel offended by the term Indian. Indeed some find the term Native American inaccurate as anyone born in America is native.

Here is a link.

Go to the what name section #10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American#What_name.3F

It is very interesting.

Here also is a website from someone who feels strongly on the subject.
She refers to herself and her people as Indian many times.

http://pages.prodigy.net/munson/common_themes.htm

[skins111111]

just something for some people to whine about that have nothing better to do
I try to just ignore them. :rolleyes:

[redwolf1218]

that's some good information about the word Indian but the word in question here is Redskins.

[flave1969]

that's some good information about the word Indian but the word in question here is Redskins.

Apologies for drifting off topic.

[RedskinsDave]

Further to my previous posts it seems that as asserted by many here including Dave, that many many native Americans do not feel offended by the term Indian. Indeed some find the term Native American inaccurate as anyone born in America is native.

Here is a link.

Go to the what name section #10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American#What_name.3F



However, a 1996 survey revealed that more "natives" in the United States still prefer American Indian to Native American.

Despite the preferences of American Indians, American teachers and academics have persuaded most "white" Americans to use the term "Native Americans."

No need to comment after those two quotes...... :banghead:

[redwolf1218]

No need to comment after those two quotes...... :banghead:
that all kind of makes my point. it is impossible to please everyone. i was wondering how long it would be before someone pointed out that "native" might be offensive as well. they are really the only true Americans, as the USA is a melting pot of many cultures and ethnicities. but who thought up the name "America"...it's like tip-colesing around on eggshells all the time. oops, i meant tip-toeing.

[RedskinsDave]

but who thought up the name "America"...

Some guinea. ;)

[Bigskinsfan]

First off nobody has the right to tell anyone what they should find offensive. Yes ther are some native people that do not find the name offensive. Who is to say why that is. Some would says they have sa "house" mentality others would say the don't care. As a multiracial person who has seen racial issues from many percpectives the number of people who share particular view has zero baring on wether it is right or wrong. There is a mearueable number of native people who find the name offensive. The name not the logo. I don't see why it would be that horrible to change the name to something that is not raciaally focused yet still has the same logo.

[bigsetz]

I saw a MAD TV skit one time where the name was changed to the Washington Rednecks. Being from the great state of south carolina which is full of em, I think I'd drink a frosty one :beer: for the change rather than be offended. But all in all I'd hate to see a name change

[bwparker]

Well see it like this. To Native americans were the white man, to us there the red man blacks are black and so on. Theres no racism in that its a way of describing one self without discriminating.
the N word, is derived from Negro which is spanish for black...but the term is still offensive because of the history of how it was used. Yes, Native Americans have redish skin, but the term Redskin could still be offensive because of its history.

I'm not saying it IS offensive, but arguing that "they do HAVE red skin, so its ok" doesn't really hold water.

[Meatsnack]

I dont think anyone has argued that there aren't any people offended by our team's name or that they don't have a right to feel however they want to in a free country. What I think has been argued is that the name isn't intrinsically offensive and/or that it isn't put forward with the intent to humiliate or de-humanize (the typical context of "offensive" terms).

You don't name a team "The Big Fat Hairy Losers". You name your team after something that commands respect and for which you have admiration.

Being offended is a choice. By reacting in knee-jerk ways to words, you give the speaker inordinate power over you. If I choose to be offended by a speaker who is innocent of intent to offend, which is the greater transgression?

[bwparker]

I'm Scotch and Irish.
They've named two kinds of whiskey after my heritage.
I would be proud if there were a football team named the Washington Whiskeys to denigrate and honor my people.

For all you DC and MD HR folks you’ll find me in OC this Sat at the St. Patrick’s parade where people of every hue pretend they’re Irish just to make drunken asses of themselves. Does this event denigrate the great heritage and memory of the oppressed Irish of the past?
Sure it does, and it’s fun too. So in loving jest, it becomes an honor.

The name Redskins does the same thing. It commodifys something serious in a fun way, and ends up bestowing a loving honor that demonstrates respect.
This goes back to a point I made earlier. Irish Americans have embraced what you have mentioned and made it ok. But I would be quick to point out that most Irish(currently in Ireland) would probably be offended if an English Soccer team was given a derogatory Irish name(I'm not up on Brit slang terms and racial epithets so I won't try an example). Why would they be be pissed? Because the English stole their lands and raped thier women. Words have whatever meaning we chose to give them, and as the historical aggressor Americans should be considerate of Native Americans interpretations. If the NA chose to embrace the term, or even if they just don't care, then its cool. But if their was a large movement from the NA community to get this name removed, I'd jump on that bandwagon.



As it is, I'm very thankful that most NA are NOT offended(as I understand it) so that I may continue to cherish and honor a team that I grew up loving.

[bwparker]

I dont think anyone has argued that there aren't any people offended by our team's name or that they don't have a right to feel however they want to in a free country. What I think has been argued is that the name isn't intrinsically offensive and/or that it isn't put forward with the intent to humiliate or de-humanize (the typical context of "offensive" terms).

You don't name a team "The Big Fat Hairy Losers". You name your team after something that commands respect and for which you have admiration.

Being offended is a choice. By reacting in knee-jerk ways to words, you give the speaker inordinate power over you. If I choose to be offended by a speaker who is innocent of intent to offend, which is the greater transgression?
I agree, to a point, we should be aware of what CAN offend and attempt to avoid it. I might want to tell a co-worker that she is hot and I wanna have sex with her, but I don't because I know she would be offended. My purpose in telling her would be to complement her and become intimate with her(arguably noble intentions), but that doesn't preclude me from responsibility for the emotional reprocusions of my actions.


I agree that the best way for Native Americans to beat this(if they wanted to) would be to embrace the term, thereby robbing it of its power(I said so earlier). But if they chose NOT to, we HAVE to respect that. We can't stand here and tell them its dumb to be offended.

[flave1969]

No need to comment after those two quotes...... :banghead:

It surprised me as well Dave, it was not my experience in person, but it is very enlightening and it does make me look at the subject with a more open mind.

[smoss]

i just want to know where everyone stands with this i mean on one hand the name has history and and tradition but on the other had so does the word NI@@ER.....and i know nobody would stand for that so even though the team is in our hearts do you think the name "REDSKIN" is a bit much or no?

it's hard for me to say since I am nto Native American, I'd hate to see the name change and I doubt it will but I know it upsets alot of people.

[skins111111]

I have a question for you? Are you a minority, my guess is that you are not!!! You are the shallow person to disregard the feelings of a entire race of people for a football team? This is the same ignorant thinking that has kept people oppressed for years.

:sfight:

I have a question for you. Are you for real?

[redwolf1218]

Apparently the name upsets a lot of people who are not Native Americans, based on the fact that they believe it must be upsetting to Native Americans.

[bwparker]

Apparently the name upsets a lot of people who are not Native Americans, based on the fact that they believe it must be upsetting to Native Americans.

What upsets me is people saying Native Americans have no right to be angry. They definatley do. I don't think they ARE(for the most part), but when someone brings it up we shouldn't disregard it. As far as I understand, 90% or more of Native Americans don't care, so I don't care. But IF they DID, I would support a change 100%. God, that would suck

[redwolf1218]

What upsets me is people saying Native Americans have no right to be angry. They definatley do. I don't think they ARE(for the most part), but when someone brings it up we shouldn't disregard it. As far as I understand, 90% or more of Native Americans don't care, so I don't care. But IF they DID, I would support a change 100%. God, that would suck
well put. i've been trying to think what name would be close, but not offensive, in the event that it has to be changed. maybe Braves. that would honor the race by referring to their bravery instead of their skin color.

[War Hogg]

that all kind of makes my point. it is impossible to please everyone. i was wondering how long it would be before someone pointed out that "native" might be offensive as well. they are really the only true Americans, as the USA is a melting pot of many cultures and ethnicities. but who thought up the name "America"...it's like tip-colesing around on eggshells all the time. oops, i meant tip-toeing.

Its absolutely impossible to please everyone, BUT its very POSSIBBLE to not DISRESPECT anyone....

[flave1969]

well put. i've been trying to think what name would be close, but not offensive, in the event that it has to be changed. maybe Braves. that would honor the race by referring to their bravery instead of their skin color.

It was also the teams original name.

[bwparker]

Its absolutely impossible to please everyone, BUT its very POSSIBBLE to not DISRESPECT anyone....
^^Love it.^^

[Warrior 007]

I have a question for you. Are you for real?

Yeah I'm for real. Whats your issue

[bigcmr]

Come on people we are getting way too touchie over nothing. Leave the Redskins name alone. When was the last time you heard an Indian called a redskin? When you stop and think about it Indians have brown skin not red skin. If any thing people with sun burn should be offened...And on the topic Im not black but I dont see how anyone can compair the "N" word to redskin.

So leave the name Redskins alone!!!

[tommahawk]

I have seen people write "the term Redskins was used in a derogatory way toward a race of people" This is not true.
When Europeans first arrived here Native Americans called them white skins.
In turn the Europeans called Native Americans red skins.
Africans were called negro skins because the word black didn't exsist yet.
After Manifest Destiny when the plain wars took place many derogitory names were created for Native Americans.
But the original red skin was not meant to be derogatory.

[Keino]

I have seen people write "the term Redskins was used in a derogatory way toward a race of people" This is not true.
When Europeans first arrived here Native Americans called them white skins.
In turn the Europeans called Native Americans red skins.
Africans were called negro skins because the word black didn't exsist yet.
After Manifest Destiny when the plain wars took place many derogitory names were created for Native Americans.
But the original red skin was not meant to be derogatory.

The term coupled with the subsequent genocide is what makes it derrogatory. Any explanation to the contrary is revisionist history......

[Redblood]

Great post Keino. I just isolated this part because I have always wanted the name Warriors if we had to change. And of course, we would keep the same logo and colors.


I'd change it too!
If the name offends anyone, it is, and should be considered offensive by all!

However, please see my signature line!

[bwparker]

Would it be offensive if we were just the 'Skins? or would people associate that with scalping?

[RedskinsDave]

The term coupled with the subsequent genocide is what makes it derrogatory. Any explanation to the contrary is revisionist history......

Any attempt to tie the name of a football team in with genocide is hyperbolic at best.

[Keino]

Any attempt to tie the name of a football team in with genocide is hyperbolic at best.
Im sorry I was referring to the root of the racial perjorative, which as we all know, pre-dates any football team of the same name. This was in response to the misleading argument that the root of the word is not a racial perjorative. Is that also your contention?

[RedskinsDave]

Would it be offensive if we were just the 'Skins? or would people associate that with scalping?

No, then nudists would be offended. Maybe we should change the name to Fluffy Love Bunnies so no one can be offended. Of course they would be have to be pretend Fluffy Love Bunnies so no one can say they represent killing bunnies for fur coats.

[RedskinsDave]

Im sorry I was referring to the root of the racial perjorative, which as we all know, pre-dates any football team of the same name. This was in response to the misleading argument that the root of the word is not a racial perjorative. Is that also your contention?

Where is there any proof that the name was ever meant to be anything more than descriptive? There is a claim that the name is somehow equivalent to the "n" word but I see no evidence of this.

[Keino]

No, then nudists would be offended. Maybe we should change the name to Fluffy Love Bunnies so no one can be offended. Of course they would be have to be pretend Fluffy Love Bunnies so no one can say they represent killing bunnies for fur coats.

Isn't it a bit hypocritical to point out Hyperbole in one post then in the very next post use it as the entire basis of your argument?

[Keino]

Where is there any proof that the name was ever meant to be anything more than descriptive? There is a claim that the name is somehow equivalent to the "n" word but I see no evidence of this.

So if I go and pull instances of the word being used as an insult/perjorative/descriptioin less than honorable, then you will concede that the name is offensive to those it purports to honor?

Please answer this, because I don't want to do research projects for no reason when I should be working..........

[RedskinsDave]

So if I go and pull instances of the word being used as an insult/perjorative/descriptioin less than honorable, then you will concede that the name is offensive to those it purports to honor?

Please answer this, because I don't want to do research projects for no reason when I should be working..........

Sure but if the best you can do is someone who claims to be offended by the name Redskins in recent days then don't bother.

[Keino]

Interesting....according to Dictionary.com:

red·skin ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rdskn)
n. Offensive Slang
Used as a disparaging term for a Native American.

redskin

n : offensive terms for Native Americans [syn: Redskin, Injun, red man]

redskin
A common appellation for a North American Indian; so called from the colour of the skin.

[Keino]

Im sure the dictionary was just written by some bleeding heart, tree-hugging, liberal..........

But since you agreed to concede the point, I will find some more historical sources for you.

[RedskinsDave]

That's not historical. That's what someone currently claims. Considering the article posted earlier in the thread that points out that despite American Indians not being all that offended by being called Indians educators still push the term Native Americans, I'd have to assume these may be the same folks who publish dictionaries.

[War Hogg]

Sure but if the best you can do is someone who claims to be offended by the name Redskins in recent days then don't bother.

Hey, we should just call them the Washington NEGROES!... huh? That wont offend too many people...

I mean there are blacks that have accepted the name negro..

[RedskinsDave]

Hey, we should just call them the Washington NEGROES!... huh? That wont offend too many people...

I mean there are blacks that have accepted the name negro..

Uh, not the same first of all and second I was saying that the name is descriptive term sort if like the Black Yankees.

[War Hogg]

Uh, not the same first of all and second I was saying that the name is descriptive term sort if like the Black Yankees.

Well how about the Washington Blackskins....Hows that sound?

[RedskinsDave]

Well how about the Washington Blackskins....Hows that sound?

It doesn't offend me. Should it?

[Keino]

That's not historical. That's what someone currently claims. Considering the article posted earlier in the thread that points out that despite American Indians not being all that offended by being called Indians educators still push the term Native Americans, I'd have to assume these may be the same folks who publish dictionaries.

I agree...it's not historical which is why I said I would go pull more historical sources...I posted the Dictionary Definition of the word prior to you agreeing to concede the point upon being confronted with more historical sources.

[Jimreaper007]

Boy this has the potential to just get all kinds of ugly....


I call myself an African American because I am of African decent and I was born in America. I do not accept Negro because that denotes a color and not my ethnicity. If other African American choose to accept that then that is their business. I call Native Americans...Native American. I do not call them Indians because that name was based off someone's mistake years ago.

If some native Americans choose not to be offended by the name Indian that is their business, but the simple knowledge of the fact that the name is based off a mistake is enough reason for me never to use it again.


red·skin ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rdskn)
n. Offensive Slang
Used as a disparaging term for a Native American.

redskin

n : offensive terms for Native Americans [syn: Redskin, Injun, red man]

redskin
A common appellation for a North American Indian; so called from the colour of the skin.

Just because you do something for years does not make it right. The question is not if native americans are offended or not. The question is how long will this ignorance be allowed to continue because some folks are used to using a derrogatory term.

If you come into the knowledge that you are wrong, tradition is no excuse for not righting the wrong. Intelligent people learn from their mistakes, right the wrongs and move forward. Why would you want a football team named after something like that?

[RedskinsDave]

I call myself American. I'm just not a fan of hyphens.

[War Hogg]

It doesn't offend me. Should it?

No not at all. Thats a great name and since it doesnt offend you and probably a dozen other people here we should consider it if we decide to change our name in the future for whatever reason...

Does the name "Washington BLACKSKINS" offend anyone else here?

[Keino]

I call myself American. I'm just not a fan of hyphens.

Becuase you haven't been made to feel like a foreigner on your own land. Africans in America have a disticintly different experience than those Americans of European Ancestry. In fact it is the Americans of European ancestry that sought to make the distinction....legally.

[Keino]

And count me as one who would be offended by the use of the name "Blackskins".

[Jimreaper007]

I call myself American. I'm just not a fan of hyphens.


I am proud of my African heritage just like Italians, Irish and others are proud of theirs. Being American does not mean you forget your cultural background, but it does require all of us to sacrifice for the greater good.

[RedskinsDave]

Becuase you haven't been made to feel like a foreigner on your own land. Africans in America have a disticintly different experience than those Americans of European Ancestry. In fact it is the Americans of European ancestry that sought to make the distinction....legally.

And I thought the genocide comment was over the top.

[Jimreaper007]

The Bottom line is this...

Now that you KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT that Redskin is a derrogatory term, do you ignore the fact in favor of comfort and tradition or do you fix it and go forward.

It should not matter if native americans are offended or not...it's about your personal responsibility to right an obvious wrong.

[ryflan47]

Cheifs, Braves, Indians, Blackhawks

any problems with these names as well?

[RedskinsDave]

The Bottom line is this...

Now that you KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT that Redskin is a derrogatory term, do you ignore the fact in favor of comfort and tradition or do you fix it and go forward.

It should not matter if native americans are offended or not...it's about your personal responsibility to right an obvious wrong.

Know without a doubt? Because dictionary.com says so? I'm still gonna go with the actual American Indians I saw wearing Skins gear, thanks.

[War Hogg]

What are the feelings towards the team name "WASHINGTON BLACKSKINS".

Does this name offend or not offend anyone else here?

[ryflan47]

What are the feelings towards the team name "WASHINGTON BLACKSKINS".

Does this name offend or not offend anyone else here?

haha, that is a little bit over the top.. lets solve this problem and keep the name as REDSKINS

[Jimreaper007]

Know without a doubt? Because dictionary.com says so? I'm still gonna go with the actual American Indians I saw wearing Skins gear, thanks.


So you are saying it's not offensive because Native Americans wearing the gear choose to accept what it means? So you need a bigger dictionary with a better brand name before you believe it is a slur? No matter where you look Dave Redskin is derrogatory.


In every dictionary I've seen it has been described as a derrogatory term. So your excuse to support ignorance is that you saw Native Americans wearing it.

Ok..

So if you saw to African Americans wearing shirts that said the "N-WORD" you would wear it too because it's ok if they do it? That is what your reasoning sounds like.

[War Hogg]

haha, that is a little bit over the top.. lets solve this problem and keep the name as REDSKINS

Over the top?? Does the name offend you?

[ryflan47]

actually it doesnt haha

[Avg Joe]

As someone who is not of Native decent(I say native instead of Native American cause they were here long before this place was named America) I cannot say whether they should or shouldn't be offended. I thought the name was given in tribute to the original coach of the team who was of Native decent.

We can always find someone who finds something offensive, and those who don't; just as there are some of us in the African American community who find there N word offensive and some who don't. There is no absolute. I will say, if collectively, the Native's found the name offensive, it would be changed.

[RedskinsDave]

So you are saying it's not offensive because Native Americans wearing the gear choose to accept what it means?

Choose to accept what you say it means. I would guess they're like me and see it as a descriptive term and not a racial epithet.

[War Hogg]

actually it doesnt haha

great...


Does the name "Washington BLACKSKINS" Offend or NOT offend anyone else here?

[Jimreaper007]

As someone who is not of Native decent(I say native instead of Native American cause they were here long before this place was named America) I cannot say whether they should or shouldn't be offended. I thought the name was given in tribute to the original coach of the team who was of Native decent.

We can always find someone who finds something offensive, and those who don't; just as there are some of us in the African American community who find there N word offensive and some who don't. There is no absolute. I will say, if collectively, the Native's found the name offensive, it would be changed.


To me it's not a question on offensive/non-offensive, but if you know that the name Redskin is derrogatory why would you want to keep it? tradition?

[Jimreaper007]

Choose to accept what you say it means. I would guess they're like me and see it as a descriptive term and not a racial epithet.


Please show me another definition other than derrogatory.

Discriptive term which is derrogatory...you skipped that small fact.

[RedskinsDave]

Yeah, they must just be a bunch of ignorants who don't know better. Thank goodness for people like you who are there to tell them what is and is not offensive.

[Jimreaper007]

Show me someone with blackskin and then that name will make since.

Goodluck....

[ryflan47]

it can be USED as a derogatory term, but it is not described as a derogatory term.

[skins111111]

Yeah I'm for real. Whats your issue


Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior 007
I have a question for you? Are you a minority, my guess is that you are not!!! You are the shallow person to disregard the feelings of a entire race of people for a football team? This is the same ignorant thinking that has kept people oppressed for years.

Just wondering if you really thought like this or were being sarcastic.
Whatever, everybodys entitled to their own opinion....
I believe "Redskins" is a great name and it makes me want to puke when people with nothing better to do start whining about it.

[War Hogg]

Please show me another definition other than derrogatory.

Discriptive term which is derrogatory...you skipped that small fact.

Excuse me Jim...What are your feelings of the team name "Washington BLACKSKINS"? Would you find this name offensive or not a big deal?

[Jimreaper007]

Yeah, they must just be a bunch of ignorants who don't know better. Thank goodness for people like you who are there to tell them what is and is not offensive.


Again you evade the bottom line. You can choose to stick your head in the sand and act like the name Redskin is not a derrogatory term but the bottom line is you know it is.

The excuse of I've seen Native Americans wearing Redskins gear to continue your ignorance of the facts is interesting.

No one has answered the question yet of Why would you want your team named after a derrogatory term used to describe another culture? It is ignorant to know this and still not fix it...and it should not matter if someone is protesting or not.

[War Hogg]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior 007
I have a question for you? Are you a minority, my guess is that you are not!!! You are the shallow person to disregard the feelings of a entire race of people for a football team? This is the same ignorant thinking that has kept people oppressed for years.

Just wondering if you really thought like this or were being sarcastic.
Whatever, everybodys entitled to their own opinion....
I believe "Redskins" is a great name and it makes me want to puke when people with nothing better to do start whining about it.

Excuse me skins11111...What are your feelings of the team name "Washington BLACKSKINS"? Would you find this name offensive or not a big deal?

[Jimreaper007]

Excuse me Jim...What are your feelings of the team name "Washington BLACKSKINS"? Would you find this name offensive or not a big deal?


That name is fine by me...doesn't describe me or my ethnicity and I have not heard it in a derrogatory sense.

[Keino]

I stumbled accross this......No real reference to give as teh source, but I thought it intetresting. Im still searching for some insight into the history of the word that will be an acceptable source. Nevertheless, I think this is relevant:

I'm Blackfoot, Cherokee and Choctaw...and yes, the term [Redskins] is extremely offensive to me. Let me explain why. Back not so long ago, when there was a bounty on the heads of the Indian people... the trappers would bring in Indian scalps along with the other skins that they had managed to trap or shoot. These scalps brought varying prices, as did the skins of the animals. The trappers would tell the trading post owner or whoever it was that he was dealing with, that he had two bearskins, a couple of beaver skins...and a few scalps. Well, the term "scalp" offended the good Christian women of the community and they asked that another term be found to describe these things. So, the trappers and hunters began using the term "redskin" ...they would tell the owner that they had bearskin, deerskins...and "redskins." The term came from the bloody mess that one saw when looking at the scalp ...thus the term "red"...skin... So, you see when we see or hear that term...we don't see a football team... we don't see a game being played...we don't see any "honor"...we see the bloody pieces of scalps that were hacked off of our men, women and even our children... we hear the screams as our people were killed...and "skinned" just like animals. So, yes, ...you can safely say that the term is considered extremely offensive.

[RedskinsDave]

Again you evade the bottom line. You can choose to stick your head in the sand and act like the name Redskin is not a derrogatory term but the bottom line is you know it is.

The excuse of I've seen Native Americans wearing Redskins gear to continue your ignorance of the facts is interesting.

No one has answered the question yet of Why would you want your team named after a derrogatory term used to describe another culture? It is ignorant to know this and still not fix it...and it should not matter if someone is protesting or not.

What the hell are you talking about? Because YOU say it's derrogatory or some dictionary does then it is? I know you liberals like to tell people how to feel and act but really, I think American Indians have spent enough time being told what to do.

[ryflan47]

its not being used as a derogatory term to describe our beloved team!
thats the bottom line

[War Hogg]

That name is fine by me...doesn't describe me or my ethnicity and I have not heard it in a derrogatory sense.

Great....Does anyone else find the name "Wasington BLACKSKINS" offensive or not that big a deal at all....

[Jimreaper007]

I stumbled accross this......No real reference to give as teh source, but I thought it intetresting. Im still searching for some insight into the history of the word that will be an acceptable source. Nevertheless, I think this is relevant:


Thanks Keino...I was looking for that because I read that before. Now it should not matter is their is 1 protestor or 1 million. If you are of the knowledge that Redskin is a derrogatory term, why would you want to keep that name for your franchise? Tradition?

IMO that is ignorance at it's best... You fully acknowledge it is foul, yet it's ok because it is old or you like saying it.

[swheeler]

What the hell are you talking about? Because YOU say it's derrogatory or some dictionary does then it is? I know you liberals like to tell people how to feel and act but really, I think American Indians have spent enough time being told what to do.


Yeah not all Native Americans are offended by it, but read Kieno's last post. Obviously some are, and with very good reason.

[ryflan47]

not everyone can be satisfied.. ever

[Jimreaper007]

What the hell are you talking about? Because YOU say it's derrogatory or some dictionary does then it is? I know you liberals like to tell people how to feel and act but really, I think American Indians have spent enough time being told what to do.


(shaking head)

What do we usually use in this country to define things Dave? So in order to support your very weak position you are now arguing the legitimacy of dictionaries? How low will you go Dave? I tell you what...I will look in liberal dictionaries while you search conservative dictionaries and if you come up with anything not derrogatory about Redskin please enlighten me.

You know what it means and you know that when people opened their mouths to utter it they usually were bestowing compliments yet you choose to stick your head in the sand now. Native Americans can accept that if they choose, but I am not questioning them. I am questioning those who know what it means yet still use it.

That is called ignorance of the facts....no matter how deep you try to stick your head in the sand. Again I ask; Knowing what it means, why would you continue to call your team a derrogatory name?

That has nothing to do with Native Americans and everything to do with your personal responsibility to right an obvious wrong.

[RedskinsDave]

No Jim, for the umpteenth time, I think I'll stick with actual Indians versus you and a dictionary. Go fetch me an older dictionary. I got money that says the word "derrogatory" or "offensive" wasn't part of the definition until some bleeding heart like yourself said it should be.

[Keino]

I found another quote, this time sourced on it's use as a derrogatory term:

Quote Major John Vance Lauderdale, surgeon US Army in 1886: "... every redskin must be killed from off the face of the plains before we can be free from their molestations. They are of no earthly good and the sooner they are swept from the land the better for civilization... I do not think they can be turned and made good law abiding citizens any more than coyotes can be used for shepherd dogs"

Clearly a not so honorable usage. Note the comparisons to animals. Like most perjoratives, they serve to dehumanize.

Still researching.........

[Jimreaper007]

No Jim, for the umpteenth time, I think I'll stick with actual Indians versus you and a dictionary. Go fetch me an older dictionary. I got money that says the word "derrogatory" or "offensive" wasn't part of the definition until some bleeding heart like yourself said it should be.


So an older and more conservative definition is more acceptable to you then a current dictionary?

Dave, Dave, Dave.....

(laughing loudly)

I am sure if we went back far enough we would find positive arguments about slavery too. Let's just trash all progress so Dave can pretend that nothing bad or wrong happened in America.

Dave take the blinders off...It's a derrogatory name and going back in history to change dictionaries is not going to change the fact.

[Jimreaper007]

I found another quote, this time sourced on it's use as a derrogatory term:



Clearly a not so honorable usage. Note the comparisons to animals. Like most perjoratives, they serve to dehumanize.

Still researching.........


Maybe that goes back far enough in time to convince Dave it's a bad term.

[skins111111]

blackskins, Redskins, whiteskins, yellowskins........makes no difference to me
....just don't change the name of my team just because a few people whine about it.

[Jimreaper007]

blackskins, Redskins, whiteskins, yellowskins........makes no difference to me
....just don't change the name of my team just because a few people whine about it.


How about changing it because it's a derrogatory term?

Wrong is Wrong no matter how traditional it is.

Why would you want your team to be named after a derrogatory terminology?

[skins111111]

Maybe that goes back far enough in time to convince Dave it's a bad term.
you mean like "quick as a cat"....or "sly as a fox"..............this is so lame I can't believe I'm getting caught up in it.

[Keino]

Here's an article written by a Ameri-Indian PHD about the subject. Clearly the name offends him:

Redskin rooted in racial perjorative (http://www.allarm.org/articles/hook.html)

[Jimreaper007]

you mean like "quick as a cat"....or "sly as a fox"..............this is so lame I can't believe I'm getting caught up in it.


I agree.....this is incredibly lame

[RedskinsDave]

Here's an article written by a Ameri-Indian PHD about the subject. Clearly the name offends him:

Redskin rooted in racial perjorative (http://www.allarm.org/articles/hook.html)

American Indian Resource Center?!!! Don't they know that Indian is offensive? Someone call Websters!!!

I am shocked, just shocked that any of you who claim the name to be so pejorative could actually cheer for the team. You support a team that clearly only exists in order to defame American Indians. The shame of it.

[skins111111]

How about changing it because it's a derrogatory term?

Wrong is Wrong no matter how traditional it is.

Why would you want your team to be named after a derrogatory terminology?

you are completly right except for the fact that its not what you say a lot of the time but how you say it......hense- terminology

ex- I say Redskin in a proud way. it can be used in a derrogatory way.

you could say country boy in a proud way or a derrogatory way
how about gay or lots of other terms......
anyway......Hail to the Redskins......I ment that in the proud way :)

[Jimreaper007]

Here's an article written by a Ameri-Indian PHD about the subject. Clearly the name offends him:

Redskin rooted in racial perjorative (http://www.allarm.org/articles/hook.html)


Gold Keino...absolute Gold!

Basically what I see here is some thinking that Native Americans are whining about the name Redskin and that they are being forced into something by a few whining people.

Nope...

This is about you and your perception of right and wrong. This is not about Native Americans protesting. This is all about using a derrogatory term to describe your football team. Every dictionary you pickup is going to clearly show you it's derrogatory.

The real question is now that you know it is derrogatory do you still want your team associated with a word like that? If you know what it means and you still can accept that then arguing this point is a lost cause.

[RedskinsDave]

Uh Jim, that guy is saying that ALL indian mascots are bad.

[Keino]

Stumbled accross another gem during my research:

Contradicts the claim that most "Indians" aren't offended (http://people.ku.edu/~tyeeme/mascots_files/mascots_page2.html)

This one is sayiong that 81% of respondents indicated that use of American Indian names, symbols, and mascots, to them, are predominantly offensive and deeply disparaging.

I guess if poll the right people we can come up with any answer we want.....

[flave1969]

No Jim, for the umpteenth time, I think I'll stick with actual Indians versus you and a dictionary. Go fetch me an older dictionary. I got money that says the word "derrogatory" or "offensive" wasn't part of the definition until some bleeding heart like yourself said it should be.


Dave, why do you even need a Dictionary? Why do you choose to side with those American Indians wearing Redskin gear? Yet a simple search on google or any other search engine you care to choose, you will find dozens of web pages from American Indians who tell you "Redskin" is offensive too them. Is their view any less valid than the people you saw wear the Skins gear? Or is it just expedient for you to choose the point of view that suits you?

The very fact that people who or of the descent in question object should be enough to have the debate. As for your dictionary reference maybe the older ones didn't have derogatory next too the word Redskin. Then again I don't suppose there were too many American Indian editors of dictionaries 50 to 100 years ago. Mind you black people back then had to sit at the back of the bus, so it isn't likely is it.

[Jimreaper007]

Uh Jim, that guy is saying that ALL indian mascots are bad.


Let me guess, you disagree Dave?


Like I said before...If you know this is derrogatory and you do not see a problem with it then this is a lost cause and ignorance reigns supreme.


Last time: Why would anyone want their beloved football team to be associated with a name that represents everything bad in our nature?

[Keino]

American Indian Resource Center?!!! Don't they know that Indian is offensive? Someone call Websters!!!

I am shocked, just shocked that any of you who claim the name to be so pejorative could actually cheer for the team. You support a team that clearly only exists in order to defame American Indians. The shame of it.

I take it then you are ready to concede the point? Another Hyberbolic in nature filled post from RD blatenltly mischaracterizing the contrary position......Shocking.

[flave1969]

blackskins, Redskins, whiteskins, yellowskins........makes no difference to me
....just don't change the name of my team just because a few people whine about it.

What is a few people too you? How many do you want?

[RedskinsDave]

Because some people say they find the term offensive does not prove that the origination of the term was anything more than descriptive.

I still can't understand how you guys can cheer for the team. Seriously, they are offensive and you support them. How do you sleep at night?

[Jimreaper007]

What is a few people too you? How many do you want?


Like a magic number will instantly make you see the error of your ways?

Oh crap 10,000 people are offended by our blantantly derrogatory name. Maybe we should change it now.

How about changing it because YOU recognize the fact that the name is derrogatory in every dictionary on earth. That has nothing to do with people complaining. That is called personal responsibility to right an obvious wrong.

Do you require the courage of a group or can you standup on your own when you know something is wrong?

[flave1969]

Because some people say they find the term offensive does not prove that the origination of the term was anything more than descriptive.

I still can't understand how you guys can cheer for the team. Seriously, they are offensive and you support them. How do you sleep at night?

I sleep at night because I started supporting this team when I didn't know better and I also grew up learning that things can be changed from the inside as well. If I do something wrong personally and it is pointed out too me I do things to rectify it. I have had it pointed out too me by Native Americans that the term is offensive to them and as such have lobbied for a reasoned debate on the matter ever since. I am happy too do that from inside. Consider me a traitor if you feel like it, I frankly don't give a toss.

[Jimreaper007]

Because some people say they find the term offensive does not prove that the origination of the term was anything more than descriptive.

I still can't understand how you guys can cheer for the team. Seriously, they are offensive and you support them. How do you sleep at night?


Nice try, but no....


This issue and the team playing football are separate and the real question is how do you sleep at night knowing you are wrong and using every excuse known to man to excuse it?

Do you require anymore proof that the name is a bad one? Would you like an older dictionary perhaps? Might I suggest a cowboy dictionary.

Ignorance in any form is inexcusable. I think I will drive through the city at 90mph and say I did not know their was a speed limit when pulled over. Do you think that will work?

[Keino]

Because some people say they find the term offensive does not prove that the origination of the term was anything more than descriptive.

I still can't understand how you guys can cheer for the team. Seriously, they are offensive and you support them. How do you sleep at night?

Lets stop trying to change the subject. I think I provided sufficient evidence that the name itself has its roots as a perjorative. That was your initial claim was it not? That it cannot be proven that the name was used as a perjorative. I think the quote from the 1800's is pretty telling, no?

If you look on the first page on this thread, I explained how I sleep at night, but thats not the issue right now. Furthermore, the quotes from "Indians" themselves saying it offends them were also provided to refute the claim that most "Indians" are not offended by the term.


I will continue my research, but somehow I have a feeling that I could pull a quote from Marshall himself and you wouldn't be convinced.

[skins111111]

What is a few people too you? How many do you want?

how about over 50%....a simple majority.....not gonna happen....I'm betting most people really don't care and a lot of them would be native

[Keino]

how about over 50%....a simple majority.....not gonna happen....I'm betting most people really don't care and a lot of them would be native

I see. So if 49% of the Surviving Ameri-Indian Populous was offended, but the remainign 51% were not, then we can view it as non-offensive?

[Jimreaper007]

how about over 50%....a simple majority.....not gonna happen....I'm betting most people really don't care and a lot of them would be native


This is about right and wrong...not numbers


If you are accused of a murder in LA and you have never been to LA in your life, but 100 people swore they saw you, are you the murderer? Right and wrong does not require numbers to support itself because it stands alone.

This is about having the courage and humility to admit that Redskin is a derrogatory term and then moving forward by changing it. It does not mean you did anything wrong, but it goes a long way to correcting something that should have been corrected a long time ago.

[Jimreaper007]

how about over 50%....a simple majority.....not gonna happen....I'm betting most people really don't care and a lot of them would be native


A majority is anything but simple...and if people do not care then we are in serious trouble as a species.

Right and Wrong should never be decided in terms of majority minority otherwise we will have lynch mobs again.

[skins111111]

I see. So if 49% of the Surviving Ameri-Indian Populous was offended, but the remainign 51% were not, then we can view it as non-offensive?

NO that would be 50% of the American people.........1 word "Democracy"

it has served us well as we will all never agree on everything.......

[skins111111]

A majority is anything but simple...and if people do not care then we are in serious trouble as a species.

Right and Wrong should never be decided in terms of majority minority otherwise we will have lynch mobs again.

so what determins whats right and whats wrong? I strongly believe your wrong and I assume you believe I'm wrong. This is an age old problem taht was countered in a fair way by democracy.

I also believe we are making a mountain out of a very small molehill.

[Jimreaper007]

NO that would be 50% of the American people.........1 word "Democracy"

it has served us well as we will all never agree on everything.......


Again you make an issue of right versus wrong an issue of majority versus minority.

It does not work that way my friend. Right is right no matter how many people you have to back it. Wrong is wrong no matter how much ignorance is involved in covering for it.

[portis2endzone]

ok i havnt said anything about this subject but its still here after what a week???

for starters the world isnt a perfect place, oh no get use to it. there are going to be somethings that piss people off. i also find somethings offensive but i dont go try to change the world becuase i dont like it. i dont like hillary clinton, i think shes a @#$^&. there i voiced that i really dont like her. then you just have to deal with that fact that shes gonna be around for a while(not in the white house).

the only way you can get a sports team to change their name is if you get the entire support from the general public. ie the bullets. they changed their name to the wizards as everyone knows. people thought the name was too violent or something like that. when you get all of DC screaming to change the name it happens over night. right now the only screaming i hear from DC about the skins is for a superbowl...

i realize i might of really really pissed some people off....sorry....get over it.

p.s. im not going to check this thread again. i (try) to stay out of these things.

[swheeler]

NO that would be 50% of the American people.........1 word "Democracy"

it has served us well as we will all never agree on everything.......

This seems to come up a lot here. Does this mean slavery was "right" when the majority of the country supported it? What about burning "witches"? The majority has been wrong before, and it will probably always continue to be wrong on some issues.

[skins111111]

ok i havnt said anything about this subject but its still here after what a week???

for starters the world isnt a perfect place, oh no get use to it. there are going to be somethings that piss people off. i also find somethings offensive but i dont go try to change the world becuase i dont like it. i dont like hillary clinton, i think shes a @#$^&. there i voiced that i really dont like her. then you just have to deal with that fact that shes gonna be around for a while(not in the white house).

the only way you can get a sports team to change their name is if you get the entire support from the general public. ie the bullets. they changed their name to the wizards as everyone knows. people thought the name was too violent or something like that. when you get all of DC screaming to change the name it happens over night. right now the only screaming i hear from DC about the skins is for a superbowl...

i realize i might of really really pissed some people off....sorry....get over it.

p.s. im not going to check this thread again. i (try) to stay out of these things.

hey I'm not pissed off.....just glad to hear some common sense.
Jim must just be bored and having some fun cuz most of his other posts make a lot of sense.

[Keino]

NO that would be 50% of the American people.........1 word "Democracy"

it has served us well as we will all never agree on everything.......

How can People not American Indians vote on what offends American Indians?

[Jimreaper007]

ok i havnt said anything about this subject but its still here after what a week???

for starters the world isnt a perfect place, oh no get use to it. there are going to be somethings that piss people off. i also find somethings offensive but i dont go try to change the world becuase i dont like it. i dont like hillary clinton, i think shes a @#$^&. there i voiced that i really dont like her. then you just have to deal with that fact that shes gonna be around for a while(not in the white house).

the only way you can get a sports team to change their name is if you get the entire support from the general public. ie the bullets. they changed their name to the wizards as everyone knows. people thought the name was too violent or something like that. when you get all of DC screaming to change the name it happens over night. right now the only screaming i hear from DC about the skins is for a superbowl...

i realize i might of really really pissed some people off....sorry....get over it.

p.s. im not going to check this thread again. i (try) to stay out of these things.

Thanks for making my point...

Right and wrong is not a matter of the majority versus the minority. Often those in the right are the minority. The name is wrong and 1 billion people thinking otherwise does not make it right. Considering the vast amount of ignorance of those things called facts I guess it would be naive to expect the name change, but at least it's crystal clear that the name is derrogatory so that argument has been settled.

[RedskinsDave]

How can People not American Indians vote on what offends American Indians?

You don't seem to have a problem telling them they should be offended.

[skins111111]

This seems to come up a lot here. Does this mean slavery was "right" when the majority of the country supported it? What about burning "witches"? The majority has been wrong before, and it will probably always continue to be wrong on some issues.
unfortunatly it was considered right at the time.............thank God for growth

[skins111111]

How can People not American Indians vote on what offends American Indians?

We are Americians first.....all else is secondary..........BTW I'm Canadian and feel up here we are all Canadians first....

[Jimreaper007]

Unfortunately generations tend to think evolution will stop with their generation. Their are quite a few things considered right at the time by a majority that are very wrong.

Having a football team named the Redskins is one of those things. Hopefully at some point in our future group ignorance will not overule right.

[skins111111]

Unfortunately generations tend to think that the growth will stop with them. Their are quite a few things considered right at the time by a majority that are very wrong.

Having a football team named the Redskins is one of those things. Hopefully at some point in our future group ignorance will not overule right.

I'm glad your the minority...........Hey that makes you wrong :)

[tbfoster1]

ok time for my 2 cents

i am not offended the team name and i don't think they should change it.

some say it is wrong for the team to have the name "Redskins" and want it changed. but if you think it is wrong why do you support the team. why do you buy the tickets, merchindise and the products from sponsers. it seems to me if you want something changed you would boycott everything associated with the redskins not continue to buy products,you would not cheer "Go Redskins and sing "Hail to the Redskins". but you do do these things and only help solidify the name's place among this team. so your arguements seem contradictary.

[Jimreaper007]

I'm glad your the minority...........Hey that makes you wrong :)


Did you not get the email?

I'm never wrong

:lol1:

[swheeler]

I'm glad your the minority...........Hey that makes you wrong :)

I'm guessing, and hoping, that you meant that as sarcasm or a joke, but unfortunately that's basically been your argument on this issue.

[Keino]

You don't seem to have a problem telling them they should be offended.


Still no word on the historic perjorative eh?
Actually they have told me they are offended. Being also a ethnic minority I can certainly empathize with ther peripheralization of my perspective, so if that heightens my sensitivity to their cause, so be it. I've not told one Ameri-Indian it should offend them, I've only pointed out the word is historically rooted as an insult, regardless of how others try to spin it. I challenge you to find where I've told someone they should be offended by it.......

[skins111111]

Did you not get the email?

I'm never wrong

:lol1:

sorry Jim, I musta been doing the laurndry

[Jimreaper007]

ok time for my 2 cents

i am not offended the team name and i don't think they should change it.

some say it is wrong for the team to have the name "Redskins" and want it changed. but if you think it is wrong why do you support the team. why do you buy the tickets, merchindise and the products from sponsers. it seems to me if you want something changed you would boycott everything associated with the redskins not continue to buy products,you would not cheer "Go Redskins and sing "Hail to the Redskins". but you do do these things and only help solidify the name,s place among this team. so your arguements seem contradictary.

The team playing football and their name are two totally different issues. These arguments would seem contradictory if you cannot separate the issues.

I am not offended by the name because I am not Native American. My bigger concern is the fact that we know the name is a derrogatory slur yet we still choose to keep it. What does that say about you/us?

It should not be a question on if anyone is offended. the simple fact that it is what it is (a derrogatory slur) should be enough to warrant the change.

I think people here are getting defensive and reaching for any argument they can not to acknowledge the fact that the name is foul and should be changed. I would imagine most of the same people would be arguing for a change if the name were offensive to them.

Wrong is Wrong ....

And supporting the team has nothing to do with calling out something wrong when you see it. So by that argument if you get a ticket you don't think you deserve, then some of your tax money should not go to police.

[Jimreaper007]

sorry Jim, I musta been doing the laurndry


Washing the wrong outta your clothes?

:lol1:

[Keino]

We are Americians first.....all else is secondary..........BTW I'm Canadian and feel up here we are all Canadians first....

No. Our history shows very different experiences. The American Experience is not unilatteral, it is diverse. The American Indian Experience differs vastly from the Irish American experience.

To say we are Americans first is to view the issue too narrowly in my opinion. If a significant portion of the American Indian populous says the name offends them, why shoulodn't we take that into account? If we use your logic, simply because 50% of the larger American Population doesn't agree.

Next you'll be telling me that calling a team the "N word" is ok, so long as 51% of the country agrees.

[Jimreaper007]

The beauty of the country is it's diversity. I notice that when making a bad argument about ethnicity some try hide behind the we all are Americans stance.

Yes we are, but that is what makes us special. The fact that we can celebrate our different ethnicities and still come together as one when needed.

This is not one of those cases.....this is a simple case of right and wrong. The name is dead wrong no matter how many people love it.

It should not matter if anyone is offended...the fact that our football team is named after a derrogatory slur should be more than enough to warrant change.

Tradition is a galactically stupid reason to keep it because slavery was a tradition too...

[skins111111]

No. Our history shows very different experiences. The American Experience is not unilatteral, it is diverse. The American Indian Experience differs vastly from the Irish American experience.

To say we are Americans first is to view the issue too narrowly in my opinion. If a significant portion of the American Indian populous says the name offends them, why shoulodn't we take that into account? If we use your logic, simply because 50% of the larger American Population doesn't agree.

Next you'll be telling me that calling a team the "N word" is ok, so long as 51% of the country agrees.

I gotta get out of this thread ....logic is out the window......the REDSKIN name is in place and is a proud name ....going going going gone :rolleyes:

[Keino]

I gotta get out of this thread ....logic is out the window......the REDSKIN name is in place and is a proud name ....going going going gone :rolleyes:

Nothing proud about racial perjoratives that dehumanize people.

Our logo is a proud logo. Our Colors are proud colors. Our name was initially a racial perjorative...

[joethefan]

Nothing proud about racial perjoratives that dehumanize people.

Our logo is a proud logo. Our Colors are proud colors. Our name was initially a racial perjorative...

Very good post Keino...
It seems to me that the premis in tradition by which the team was develped was wrong.....wasn't a proud premis.

As I posted earlier, The Song Hail to the Redskins has a line in it that used to say, "Fight for Old Dixie" reffering to the south and "Jim Crow" That why JP Marshall was the last to hire lacks on his team. But the song was later changed to "DC". Quote was from Bobby Mithcell.

[flave1969]

ok time for my 2 cents

i am not offended the team name and i don't think they should change it.

some say it is wrong for the team to have the name "Redskins" and want it changed. but if you think it is wrong why do you support the team. why do you buy the tickets, merchindise and the products from sponsers. it seems to me if you want something changed you would boycott everything associated with the redskins not continue to buy products,you would not cheer "Go Redskins and sing "Hail to the Redskins". but you do do these things and only help solidify the name's place among this team. so your arguements seem contradictary.

I feel validated by the fact that I support our team. I am all for having the debate, and I feel my views are made more valid by being on the inside.

In the 1970's and 1980's there was a big problem with rascism in Soccer in the UK. Do you know how that was worked on? By the people on the inside. The players on the pitch and the fans on the terraces. Until the silent majority started the "Kick Rascism out of Football" campaign the silent majority just stood by and watched people throw Banana's at Black players and make Monkey noises each time they touched the ball. In the end people began to rebel against the supporters that did such things. That was done from the inside. Teams known for their rascist fans tackled the problem from within.

I feel that I can lobby from within the confines of our family, and I see no contradiction in that. My wish first and foremost is that people recognise that too many American Indians the term is and always will be Offensive. There are some unwilling to acknowledge that and I at least want to get them to recognise that in the debate.

[OCSkinzFan]

I'll jump in for skins111111.
The beauty of the country is it's diversity. I notice that when making a bad argument about ethnicity some try hide behind the we all are Americans stance.
Yes diversity; diversity of thought, expression, and interpretation. If I think a piece of art is offensive, I respect the diversity of the "other." In a free society I am not forced to purchase said art. No Native Americans have been forced to buy tickets. And furthermore defaming Native Americans is clearly not the intention of the name.

Yes we are, but that is what makes us special. The fact that we can celebrate our different ethnicities and still come together as one when needed.
Defaming Native Americans is clearly not the intention of the name. The name is intended as an homage to and celebration of the brave fighting spirit that some Native Americans have exhibited; a perfect opportunity to celebrate the uniqueness of America's past and present.

This is not one of those cases.....this is a simple case of right and wrong. The name is dead wrong no matter how many people love it.

It should not matter if anyone is offended...the fact that our football team is named after a derrogatory slur should be more than enough to warrant change.
"Derrogatory slur" is an opinion. "Right and wrong?" Like murder and slavery? I am aware of the philosophical foundation of those two principals being wrong. But language just isn't like that. It is elastic and constantly changing. Just because a word suggests a negative connotation does not make the word wrong in and of itself. Intentions must always be tied to names and words. Jew used to be an insult for many people, now it's not. The list goes on and on of examples. The fact is, I have never heard "Redskin" used as a derogatory term. I doubt that many people have. It is merely your opinion that the term is denotatively negative, not mine, not most people. And as far as I can tell not even Most Native American's.

Tradition is a galactically stupid reason to keep it because slavery was a tradition too...

On this point you are right: because Redskins=Slavery.
How could I have been so blind?

I'm taking my straw man and going home now.

[War Hogg]

Im so glad this thread was started.....Its almost as good as the "show us a picture of yourself" thread.....If you know what I mean...lol

[Jimreaper007]

I'll jump in for skins111111.

[QUOTE]Yes diversity; diversity of thought, expression, and interpretation. If I think a piece of art is offensive, I respect the diversity of the "other." In a free society I am not forced to purchase said art. No Native Americans have been forced to buy tickets. And furthermore defaming Native Americans is clearly not the intention of the name.

Oh so you want some too? ooookkkkay!

So because you have diversity of thought it is ok to tolerate a name that in every dictionary to date is derrogatory? So what does the Redskin mean to you on your planet? One of your fellow name supporters went so far to suggest that liberals changed the dictionary to make it mean a bad thing. I have a sneaking suspicion that if dictionaries were older the definitions would be even worse. The only thing this thread has shown me is that people will go out of their way to not accept personal responsibility and right an obvious wrong.


Defaming Native Americans is clearly not the intention of the name. The name is intended as an homage to and celebration of the brave fighting spirit that some Native Americans have exhibited; a perfect opportunity to celebrate the uniqueness of America's past and present.

Intent does not matter grasshopper. When I left the house this morning I intended not to speed but the trooper didn't buy that. The fact is you are aware of the fact that the name is a slur in every dictionary on the planet but your response is to try and twist it into something favorable. Please do not insult anyone's intelligence by trying to sugar coat a terd. If the intent were what you said then why not call them Braves, Warriors or Chiefs? The Fact is Redskin is particularly bad. Oh, was that another hole poked in your weak response?


"Derrogatory slur" is an opinion. "Right and wrong?" Like murder and slavery? I am aware of the philosophical foundation of those two principals being wrong. But language just isn't like that. It is elastic and constantly changing. Just because a word suggests a negative connotation does not make the word wrong in and of itself. Intentions must always be tied to names and words. Jew used to be an insult for many people, now it's not. The list goes on and on of examples. The fact is, I have never heard "Redskin" used as a derogatory term. I doubt that many people have. It is merely your opinion that the term is denotatively negative, not mine, not most people. And as far as I can tell not even Most Native American's.

Ok, if the language is so elastic please show me one dictionary on earth where the meaning of redskin has been stretched into a positive? Nice try grasshopper, but that dog will not hunt. This entire discussion is full of people who choose to ignore the fact in order to save face. I am sorry folks but this is a matter of right and wrong with no gray area. If the word had anything positive related to it someone would have posted it by now. Keino has posted several derrogatory definitions if you care to look back on the posts. There is no side stepping the fact that the name is bad. Intent is not the issue because if someone called me the N-Word and said they did not intend for it to be a slur they still get a beat down. Unless of course you can show me that the N-Word is not a slur in this magical word twisting dictionary you and others must have.


On this point you are right: because Redskins=Slavery.
How could I have been so blind? I'm taking my straw man and going home now.

This is not something you win because you are in the majority. This is something you win because you are right. The fact is the name is a slur everywhere where it is defined so no rosey rhetoric and spin is gonna change that. Next time bring a stronger argument cuz that one had holes in it.

Quote Major John Vance Lauderdale, surgeon US Army in 1886: "... every redskin must be killed from off the face of the plains before we can be free from their molestations. They are of no earthly good and the sooner they are swept from the land the better for civilization... I do not think they can be turned and made good law abiding citizens any more than coyotes can be used for shepherd dogs"

Yeah, I can see all the good in that statement. Anyone else care to take a stab at defending that? Maybe Major Lauderdale didn't really intend that in a derrogatory way? Maybe if you read that upside down it is praise for the Native American?

:sleep:

Folks please... every argument for keeping the name is just plain wrong.

[bishop56]

:sfight: Duking it out! Well why don't we do something that won't offend like the Washington Ninjas, oops asian culture. How about the Trees uh oh beavers will be upset as well as people with no teeth who can't say three. What about the Washington Senators damn already taken. How about the Washington Things we could just put a blank space everywhere and people could write in the name they want. This sight could be Hail________. We could say hey you watch that game between the Giants and the ______. That will be great. People need to realize that sticks and stones may break my bones but ahhh hell now I pissed off sticks(trees twice) and stones because I left out rocks and don't forget gravel. I also pissed off jellyfish(don't have bones) I don't know why we even communicate. I probably pissed off anybody whose illiterate and tried to read this.

[ryflan47]

that's the problem with our great nation, people get offended too easy. In a time where christmas trees are no longer acceptable on public property because Jewish people get offended, and minorahs are not allowed on public property because catholics get offended, the last thing we need is pro sports to get involved. Suck it up. I would'nt mind if there was a pro sports team named "the crackers" or "the creoles".. i find this very unoffensive.

[Jimreaper007]

Let's call it what it is,

The Washington Football Team that is overly expensive to see in person and not doing too well no matter the name.

(I wonder if that will fit on the side of a helmet)

[portis2endzone]

that's the problem with our great nation, people get offended too easy. In a time where christmas trees are no longer acceptable on public property because Jewish people get offended, and minorahs are not allowed on public property because catholics get offended, the last thing we need is pro sports to get involved. Suck it up. I would'nt mind if there was a pro sports team named "the crackers" or "the creoles".. i find this very unoffensive.
yea i completely agree.

and the politicly correct way to say christmas tree is "holiday tree" get it right. :lol1: haha j/k.

[Keino]

that's the problem with our great nation, people get offended too easy. In a time where christmas trees are no longer acceptable on public property because Jewish people get offended, and minorahs are not allowed on public property because catholics get offended, the last thing we need is pro sports to get involved. Suck it up. I would'nt mind if there was a pro sports team named "the crackers" or "the creoles".. i find this very unoffensive.

I wonder if you'd feel that way if White folks were hunted for their scalps until they were nearly extinct and then pushed on to reservations off of their land, all the while being called "Cracker" and "honkey'. Then 100 years later seeing a football team with the name "cracker" or "honkey" while your people largley remain on reservations in the same state. I think you'd feel differently. The truth of the matter, is that those two words don't have nearly the same hurtful effects, because there was no history of oppression from those who would use such words.

Again people, what makes the term offensive, besides it's root as a perjorative, is the oppression and injustice that accompanied it. Raiders, Buccaneers, Cowboys, Vikings were all occupations. Furthermore they are embraced by the people in question and said people were not oppressed/killed off etc. to the level that reaches genocidal proportions like the American Indian.

Sometimes, being human requires that we step outside of our own pitiful existance and try to see an issue from outside of your own perspective.

I love the Washington Redskins football team. It is the team that represents my city and consequently, me. As such, I'd like my team to make the honorable move and change its name to something more honorable. Braves on the warpath is already part of the fight song, and I can't think of a better alternative.

[ryflan47]

I wonder if you'd feel that way if White folks were hunted for their scalps until they were nearly extinct and then pushed on to reservations off of their land, all the while being called "Cracker" and "honkey'. Then 100 years later seeing a football team with the name "cracker" or "honkey" while your people largley remain on reservations in the same state. I think you'd feel differently. The truth of the matter, is that those two words don't have nearly the same hurtful effects, because there was no history of oppression from those who would use such words.

Again people, what makes the term offensive, besides it's root as a perjorative, is the oppression and injustice that accompanied it. Raiders, Buccaneers, Cowboys, Vikings were all occupations. Furthermore they are embraced by the people in question and said people were not oppressed/killed off etc. to the level that reaches genocidal proportions like the American Indian.

Sometimes, being human requires that we step outside of our own pitiful existance and try to see an issue from outside of your own perspective.

I love the Washington Redskins football team. It is the team that represents my city and consequently, me. As such, I'd like my team to make the honorable move and change its name to something more honorable. Braves on the warpath is already part of the fight song, and I can't think of a better alternative.

With all do respect, i do not find this name offensive, considering im about 1% american indian, i do have a say from that point of view

[Keino]

1% eh......What about the other 99%? You aren't going to claim American Indian Authenticity off of 1% are you? I mean jeez, at least 1/8 would 12.5%. BTW- I am 1/8 American Indian so I guess I can claim to speak as a Native person as well........... :rolleyes:

[Jimreaper007]

Again not a matter of who you are and if you are offended...

This goes more to the issue of right and wrong. Now everyone knows there is no good way to spin the word Redskin so please stop in your feeble attempts...

Grab any dictionary or enjoy this early sample of it's usage...

Quote Major John Vance Lauderdale, surgeon US Army in 1886: "... every redskin must be killed from off the face of the plains before we can be free from their molestations. They are of no earthly good and the sooner they are swept from the land the better for civilization... I do not think they can be turned and made good law abiding citizens any more than coyotes can be used for shepherd dogs"

Please get a positive spin on that...

[portis2endzone]

Again not a matter of who you are and if you are offended...

This goes more to the issue of right and wrong. Now everyone knows there is no good way to spin the word Redskin so please stop in your feeble attempts...

Grab any dictionary or enjoy this early sample of it's usage...



Please get a positive spin on that...
jeez youve been at this all day...lol

[bishop56]

To say Raiders and Buccaneers and Vikings were occupations is ridiculous. What about the victims they caused my great great great grandfather was robbed and killed by pirates(raiders, buccaneers) so now its a terrible situation when I see the Pittsburgh pirates or Tampa Bay, or the Raiders. This is all in interpretation. Do people get upset that ND is the fighting Irish. Because we depict the Irish to be an unruly sort. No the Irish embrace them and cheer for such a team. Instead of whining about being 1% NA why don't we have the highest Native American fan base in the NFL. Instead of brushing off such a ludicrous notion as we are the Redskins to degrade the Native Americans why not look at it for what it is. A mascot, a symbol. Should we hold the hands of everyone who was attacked by a bear every time Chicago plays? Should we bow to the demands of sequence wearing illusionists who find the Bengals offensive because Sig and Roy(don't know which one) were attacked. This is similar to the argument of the rebel flag. If I am Vietnamese and move here do I have the right to protest the American flag because "my people had been involved in a war" and the flag was a symbol of the enemy at the time but now its the symbol of the country I reside in. I question why we make such a big deal over these things. Why spend so much time dwelling on how something upsets you. Did the village people get this kind of flack from the guy they had wearing the head dress? I know I use alot of sarcasm but its just that I find this and most politically corrrect topics to be a bit cliched. It seems someone gets up and says something and right away the mob joins in.

[War Hogg]

I wonder if you'd feel that way if White folks were hunted for their scalps until they were nearly extinct and then pushed on to reservations off of their land, all the while being called "Cracker" and "honkey'. Then 100 years later seeing a football team with the name "cracker" or "honkey" while your people largley remain on reservations in the same state. I think you'd feel differently. The truth of the matter, is that those two words don't have nearly the same hurtful effects, because there was no history of oppression from those who would use such words.

Again people, what makes the term offensive, besides it's root as a perjorative, is the oppression and injustice that accompanied it. Raiders, Buccaneers, Cowboys, Vikings were all occupations. Furthermore they are embraced by the people in question and said people were not oppressed/killed off etc. to the level that reaches genocidal proportions like the American Indian.

Sometimes, being human requires that we step outside of our own pitiful existance and try to see an issue from outside of your own perspective.

I love the Washington Redskins football team. It is the team that represents my city and consequently, me. As such, I'd like my team to make the honorable move and change its name to something more honorable. Braves on the warpath is already part of the fight song, and I can't think of a better alternative.

You should know it takes a couple hundred years and a few generations for people to understand that something was wrong..... Its pointless man, it doesnt matter how you try to explain it...

[bwparker]

I was online doing some reading on this; I found that alot of what Native Americans are offended by has less to do with the offensiveness of the name as it does with the presentation of the mascot. Like the big cartoony looking cleveland indian. Or various mascots who parade around whooping and hollering. Or things that they consider sacred items for rituals being sold as souveniers.(Imagine if you went to a reservation and they was guy going "Buy a Cross and CRUCIFY your FRIENDS just like the Calcutta Christians CRUCIFY the opposition!!", LOL) This point is usually brought up when someone says "Shouldn't Christians be offended by the Saints, what about the Vikings, Notre Dame...etc. They say it isn't just the name, its the presentation.

On this level I feel Washington does a fairly good job.

The image of our mascot is proud and stoic. His expression is calm and confident, no hint of exaggeration or violence, I can't imagine anyone of any culture being offended by a image like this.

Other than that one guy who dresses up in full get up for the games(GOD I love that guy) there isn't any literal mascot that I've ever seen. We don't have a guy in a headress running around the field with a spear and a tomahawk scream "Hey-YAH hey-yah" or anything.

The only think I've seen that resembles a Native American object is the IMAGE of an arrow head. No Tomahawks or dream catchers or anything like that. In fact, most of the merchandise is a truck or bus or something.

By actions, the team doesn't merely respect the NA culture, they practically ignore it. If we were to change the name to something that had NO contriversy we could probably remove ourselves from the debate entirely. We would become a pillar of what a Native American mascot could be, and maybe serve as a counter agrument for the few people who think that NO Native American Mascots should be used at all.

[bwparker]

I was thinking of a possible new name. Of course we'd want something that allows us to keep our symbol, because it is the best symbol in all of football. So after I consider the usual: Braves, Warriors, Indians, Savages. Maybe we use an actual tribe. The Washington Apache? Meh...they are all overused, equally offensive or just dumb.

Then I think: We want to have a picture of a Native American, right? Why not have that be our name? The Washington Native Americans!

No ring to it. It sounds terrible.

What if we drop the "Native"? No one says "Native British" or "Native Chinese". Why not just the Washington Americans? Think about it:

We honor the Native Americans by admitting that they are Native enough to not need to be called Native.

We have the potential for more National appeal, because we aren't just in the Nation's capital, Our mascot is our country.

And the BEST REASON OF ALL: We piss of the Cowgirl's and take our rightful place as the TRUE "America's Team." After all, WE are in the nation's capital, WE represent the Native Americans, and WE were here first.


The difference between saying 'Skins and 'Cans isn't that much either...
just a thought...

[Jimreaper007]

You should know it takes a couple hundred years and a few generations for people to understand that something was wrong..... Its pointless man, it doesnt matter how you try to explain it...

1. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

2. Once someone sheds light on an obvious wrong it requires indivual courage to stand up for what is right. I know I am in the minority on this subject, but I also know I am right.

3. I never ever give up

[Jimreaper007]

Quote Major John Vance Lauderdale, surgeon US Army in 1886: "... every redskin must be killed from off the face of the plains before we can be free from their molestations. They are of no earthly good and the sooner they are swept from the land the better for civilization... I do not think they can be turned and made good law abiding citizens any more than coyotes can be used for shepherd dogs"

Why would you support keeping a name like that?