Moss and Taylor absent from workouts

[danny's stogie]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32365-2005Apr6.html

S...followed by some other letters. Moss and Ramsey need to be spending every waking second together between now and the season opener.

[akhhorus]

Im betting they're in Miami, all those players workout together. But Moss should be up in DC.

[redskin_rich]

What I don't like is the part that Ramsey and Moss have not even spoken yet, let alone working to get timing together.

[danny's stogie]

What I don't like is the part that Ramsey and Moss have not even spoken yet, let alone working to get timing together.

yup, that worries me the most.

[whitskins]

This is frustrating... I really hope these guys don't plan on sitting out training camp as well because that would be some real garbage.

[LATrueRedskin]

Not a fan of that.

[skinsfan36]

yea moss needs to start working w/ramsey asap,taylor will be fine

[28thegreat]

I'm inclined to cut Moss a bit of a break. Not really sure why except that he has some transition time due him. ST however needs desperately to be at these workouts, for the comraderie if nothing else. He was around last year and hopefully wants to be a big part of things here...there certainly seems to be a different spirit around REdskins Park these days.

This quote from Ramsey is excellent. I have not been the biggest fan of Rams; but words like this show me he is maturing greatly. He is definitely showing signs of becoming the leader we need him to be.

"Our job now is to prepare," Ramsey said, "and you don't even want to really approach it from a job standpoint, you want to approach it kind of from a pride standpoint, that this is what I want, this is what I need to do -- and maybe even more than this -- to get ready to get to where we want to go as a team. It's not like I have to go do it, it's like, 'it's time to go get it done.' "

[joethefan]

Should I be concerned about this or not....I as least hope he's working out with Ed Reed....But we need both of them here.

[silverspring]

Taylor should be there he is still a rook and deserves no special treatment at all, especially when he is pining for a redone contract.

And it shocks me that we still don't have a contract for moss, c'mon this should have been set up before the trade was complete. We are going to get screwed by this contract.

[danny's stogie]

Should I be concerned about this or not....I as least hope he's working out with Ed Reed....But we need both of them here.

The fact that Gibbs wants them there makes me very concerned.

[redskin_rich]

This is kinda pissing me off. Moss should know that he won't get his new deal until after June 1. He is new and needs to show that he is a part of this.

[28thegreat]

The fact that Gibbs wants them there makes me very concerned.
Gibbs at some level wants them ALL there. I think he believes this is the best time to build necessary team chemistry. ...and I wholeheartedly concur.

[RedskinsVision]

they seem to be holding out.. Jacobs shares the same agent as Moss and he hinted that it's about the organization and the agent and the article said Moss wants big time signing bonus money which is stalling the negotiations. this is not good when we just had Cryveranues get his way with us.. i hope Gibbs and Snyder firm up and not let players dictate the way this team handles business. the U boys might be talented but they're not bigger than the team.. they both have a contract.. man up.

[akhhorus]

Im not concerned about this yet, but they need to get to camp in the near future. Simple as that. At the latest, by the mini camp right after the draft.

[skinsfan36]

Im not concerned about this yet, but they need to get to camp in the near future. Simple as that. At the latest, by the mini camp right after the draft.
i am about 80% sure they will both show up for mini camp

[akhhorus]

they seem to be holding out.. Jacobs shares the same agent as Moss and he hinted that it's about the organization and the agent and the article said Moss wants big time signing bonus money which is stalling the negotiations. this is not good when we just had Cryveranues get his way with us.. i hope Gibbs and Snyder firm up and not let players dictate the way this team handles business. the U boys might be talented but they're not bigger than the team.. they both have a contract.. man up.

yeah, but if the skins draft a Wideout in the first round; Moss can hold out. The skins still have Patten, the draftee and TJ.

[Axegrinder]

If Ramsey wants this to be his team,he'd better step up to the plate and take control of the situation.C'mon Patrick,show some leadership skills.

[RedskinsVision]

If Ramsey wants this to be his team,he'd better step up to the plate and take control of the situation.C'mon Patrick,show some leadership skills.

i think he did that pretty well with his comment about pride instead of taking it just as a job.

[Jimreaper007]

What a great way to start out Moss...

[Skins57]

What a great way to start out Moss...

I agree, I do not care where they are working out they should be with the rest of the team. Plain and simple

[CFerro07]

I doubt that this is accurate, I really hope it isnt accurate and the source isnt really that credible, infact as I type I am having doubts of even posting it but I figure it will bring up some discussion. I dont even think we would be under the cap if this deal was done but anyway...


-- Santana Moss to Get Huge New Deal --
Wed Mar 16, 2005 --from FFMastermind.com

The Washington Post reports according to sources, new Redskins WR Santana Moss, who was traded for WR Laveranues Coles, will sign a rich, multiyear contract befitting a No. 1 wideout. Sources said after the March 5 trade, the Redskins and Moss's agent, Drew Rosenhaus, agreed on the parameters of an extension, and Washington is waiting to announce the deal after creating cap space. According to one source, who requested anonymity because the new deal hasn't been announced, Moss will average more than the annual salary in Coles's original contract in Washington -- a seven-year deal worth $35 million that included a $13 million bonus. Rosenhaus, whose client was scheduled to earn about $450,000 in 2005, declined to comment last week.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

"Our job now is to prepare," Ramsey said, "and you don't even want to really approach it from a job standpoint, you want to approach it kind of from a pride standpoint, that this is what I want, this is what I need to do -- and maybe even more than this -- to get ready to get to where we want to go as a team. It's not like I have to go do it, it's like, 'it's time to go get it done.' "
nice quote. i think the fact that this is a contract year for patrick may be beginning to settle in with him now, lol.

this is not exactly the kind of start we were looking for from moss, but im not going to panic over this. if the guys come into camp all overweight and lazy, then ill be pissed.

[colkurtz]

First Coles wants a trade and gets one.
Gardner wants a trade and will get us a pittance or nothing.
DMC gives an interview, showing his underlying poor attitude.
Moss - not at practices. Not concerned yet, but just looking at this continuing trend............................................. .....

The team needs to be firm with these players. We can find players who want to be Redskins and then will win with them...............

[gibbsisgod]

If you think it's just about canes working together, then why isn't portis there? I think Mr #26 understands what gibbs is trying to do. Man, portis make the call to taylor and Moss, tell them to get here.

[bgforever]

i am about 80% sure they will both show up for mini camp

I am inclined to believe they the Miami relationships are as tight as a drum compared to other former college teammates. Its an oddity when this time rolls around, how they stick together in workouts. Edgerrin James did this often, leading some at times in Indy to believe it would back fire. Not.

However, about a week from now, they'll probably be in. Not sure how much Gator meat and wild boar they digest, but by then it should be adequate.

[becky]

I doubt that this is accurate, I really hope it isnt accurate and the source isnt really that credible, infact as I type I am having doubts of even posting it but I figure it will bring up some discussion. I dont even think we would be under the cap if this deal was done but anyway...


-- Santana Moss to Get Huge New Deal --
Wed Mar 16, 2005 --from FFMastermind.com

The Washington Post reports according to sources, new Redskins WR Santana Moss, who was traded for WR Laveranues Coles, will sign a rich, multiyear contract befitting a No. 1 wideout. Sources said after the March 5 trade, the Redskins and Moss's agent, Drew Rosenhaus, agreed on the parameters of an extension, and Washington is waiting to announce the deal after creating cap space. According to one source, who requested anonymity because the new deal hasn't been announced, Moss will average more than the annual salary in Coles's original contract in Washington -- a seven-year deal worth $35 million that included a $13 million bonus. Rosenhaus, whose client was scheduled to earn about $450,000 in 2005, declined to comment last week.


don't get me wrong, i am excited to have him on our team.. but i can't honestly say that i think moss is worth more than coles's original contract. from $500k to an average $5/year (i know that's not how contracts are structured, i'm just averaging it out)? that is a BIG raise. i REALLY hope that source is inaccurate.

as far as moss and taylor skipping workouts.. i really wish moss and ramsey were working together already, but it is a little early to panic. as long as they are working out on their own and aren't completely out of shape at minicamp, i won't stress out.. yet.

i've always thought ramsey was a classy guy. i'm hoping to see him really break out and work his butt off this year. and i'm hoping for our offensive line to let up ZERO sacks against dallas.

a girl can dream, right?

[War Hogg]

I doubt that this is accurate, I really hope it isnt accurate and the source isnt really that credible, infact as I type I am having doubts of even posting it but I figure it will bring up some discussion. I dont even think we would be under the cap if this deal was done but anyway...


-- Santana Moss to Get Huge New Deal --
Wed Mar 16, 2005 --from FFMastermind.com

The Washington Post reports according to sources, new Redskins WR Santana Moss, who was traded for WR Laveranues Coles, will sign a rich, multiyear contract befitting a No. 1 wideout. Sources said after the March 5 trade, the Redskins and Moss's agent, Drew Rosenhaus, agreed on the parameters of an extension, and Washington is waiting to announce the deal after creating cap space. According to one source, who requested anonymity because the new deal hasn't been announced, Moss will average more than the annual salary in Coles's original contract in Washington -- a seven-year deal worth $35 million that included a $13 million bonus. Rosenhaus, whose client was scheduled to earn about $450,000 in 2005, declined to comment last week.

WOW

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

don't get me wrong, i am excited to have him on our team.. but i can't honestly say that i think moss is worth more than coles's original contract. from $500k to an average $5/year (i know that's not how contracts are structured, i'm just averaging it out)? that is a BIG raise. i REALLY hope that source is inaccurate.
exactly. i dont think any of us are happy to hear those possible numbers for moss. as much as we hate the toe, he was more of a consistent #1 threat than moss has been at this point in their respective careers. i would at least like to see how moss plays under gibbs before he gets that kind of money from us.

[Taylor_36]

Im a huge Sean Taylor fan but him and Moss need to be at Redskin Park with the team. Like most people on here have said and what im guessing is Sean and Moss are down in Miami working out with some other nfl U guys. I'm disappointed in Taylor and Moss for not being there now, but like someone has said i wont hit the panic button yet. who knows maybe Sean has been in Miami working with Ed Reed. I guarantee if the Redskins get in the playoffs and Sean and Moss have good years, no one is gonna remember all this.

[techskinsfan]

yea wait we all debated whether or not moss was worht 5 mil a year. so what is that deal off now? i have a feeling this has nothing to do wiht contracts and i pray not...remember st wants to restructure or rework

[JoeDaSchmoe]

I doubt that this is accurate, I really hope it isnt accurate and the source isnt really that credible, infact as I type I am having doubts of even posting it but I figure it will bring up some discussion. I dont even think we would be under the cap if this deal was done but anyway...


-- Santana Moss to Get Huge New Deal --
Wed Mar 16, 2005 --from FFMastermind.com

The Washington Post reports according to sources, new Redskins WR Santana Moss, who was traded for WR Laveranues Coles, will sign a rich, multiyear contract befitting a No. 1 wideout. Sources said after the March 5 trade, the Redskins and Moss's agent, Drew Rosenhaus, agreed on the parameters of an extension, and Washington is waiting to announce the deal after creating cap space. According to one source, who requested anonymity because the new deal hasn't been announced, Moss will average more than the annual salary in Coles's original contract in Washington -- a seven-year deal worth $35 million that included a $13 million bonus. Rosenhaus, whose client was scheduled to earn about $450,000 in 2005, declined to comment last week.

That's terrifying.

[sdredskinsfan]

Jury is still out on Taylor for me. He doesn't seem to study as much as other players, and it showed on the field last year (especially against Dallas). Of course, he was a rookie, and I'll be a lil forgiving.

As for Moss, I'm hoping that he is avoiding the workouts at this point until his contract is signed. I think he needs to work out as much as possible with Ramsey more for Ramsey's sake than his own. If he doesn't make an effor to work out with Ramsey other than mini-camps and training camp (which are both mandatory) then I won't think much of him (i.e., typical miami punk). But, I also don't expect any of today's players to show the same work ethic of players who played 20 years ago.

[smoss]

Im betting they're in Miami, all those players workout together. But Moss should be up in DC.

Santana always works out in Miami w/ his fellow 'Canes.

[suppitty]

Nice way to start out your career Santanna. I fully expect Taylor to do this, but you are new to the team, and most likely our #1 wr, so get your ass into camp before you feel the wrath of coach Joe's doghouse.

[2Cooley]

this is what the canes do ed reed and shockey are also down there

[GolfFreak]

This is frustrating, but I'm not too worried right now - it's April. Some of these guys have their own offseason workout programs (my choice would be w/ the team, but oh well). I do think Moss needs to catch some balls from Ramsey here soon.

I sure hope there is no looming holdout from Taylor on redoing his deal. We can't have any of that around here ...

[NamVet4]

I believe Coach Gibbs will give these "'Canes" a time to find their place. I suspect after the draft everyone will be encouraged to be at minicamp!
And it's not on any player to make these guys show - it's on Coach Gibbs and the other Coaches to rattle these cages and get these guys ready!

[sdredskinsfan]

I believe Coach Gibbs will give these "'Canes" a time to find their place. I suspect after the draft everyone will be encouraged to be at minicamp!
And it's not on any player to make these guys show - it's on Coach Gibbs and the other Coaches to rattle these cages and get these guys ready!

From what I understand, minicamps are mandatory. So, it would be considered a holdout of sorts if a player did not show. The "workouts" are voluntary, but I would think if Moss and Ramsey don't put in time during these workouts, then we're in trouble this season. I'm hoping that Moss hasn't shown for these workouts because he hasn't yet signed his new contract.

[BigPlayJay]

Santana always works out in Miami w/ his fellow 'Canes.


Santana is not a "Cane" anymore, he's a Redskin. He should be doing things that make the Redskins better, not the Hurricanes.

[smoak]

I do NOT want Moss getting a new contract until he shows me something in a Redskins uniform, and if Taylor wants a new deal this is a really funny way to show it.

TEAM FIRST!!!?? :banghead:

[whitskins]

With regards to that contract article, we've been hearing that stuff for weeks now and nothing has come of it. The article posted in this thread is also dated March 16th so it's not exactly a new development. We've obviously hit a snag with Moss in signing an extension and the guy would be a moron not to sign a contract worth more overall than Coles' deal.

[Jimreaper007]

If this is a problem why don't they use some form of technology to allow him to attend the meetings virtually? Especially if these things are not mandatory.

[cmdlost29]

What is the big deal? They are missing VOLENTARY workouts, not training camp. If they had to be there they wouldn't be known as volentary, they'd be known as "Get your sweat on camp". Sure it might make the coach worry a bit not having two stars there, but for the fans don't make more out of this then that. The guys are on vacation, let them have their offseasons

[CNYSkinFan]

I believe Coach Gibbs will give these "'Canes" a time to find their place. I suspect after the draft everyone will be encouraged to be at minicamp!
And it's not on any player to make these guys show - it's on Coach Gibbs and the other Coaches to rattle these cages and get these guys ready!

Well just for clarification sake, minicamps are mandatory. If ANYONE does not go to the minis it is a sign of a major problem. Even unsigned draft picks go to the minis while they are in contract negotiations.

This is a little troubling but I find it ironic that Pastabelly was reporting that the Jets felt the skins were tampering since they already had a contract deal for Moss when the first trade fell through and now we are in a snag in the contract? Demasio was reporting last month that Sanatana had signed the deal and it was waiting for a June 1, 2005 to be announced. Someone is getting this wrong somewhere. Just not sure where.

[CNYSkinFan]

What is the big deal? They are missing VOLENTARY workouts, not training camp. If they had to be there they wouldn't be known as volentary, they'd be known as "Get your sweat on camp". Sure it might make the coach worry a bit not having two stars there, but for the fans don't make more out of this then that. The guys are on vacation, let them have their offseasons

"Voluntary" is the word you are searching for. And yes they are called "Voluntary" but players are highly encouraged to come. The union wants them to be voluntary to allow for exceptions but almost all players attend all the workouts with the exception of problem players or teams with bad morale. Or apparently U of M guys.

[28thegreat]

Santana is not a "Cane" anymore, he's a Redskin. He should be doing things that make the Redskins better, not the Hurricanes.
Here, Here!!! Excellent point of view Mr. BigPlayJay!! :awesomewo

[SkinsKY]

The team needs to be firm with these players. We can find players who want to be Redskins and then will win with them...............

That's the thing...You can't be firm with them. Regardless of their choice, they are voluntary workouts. Tom Coughlin got in trouble from the league because he tried to be firm with the players. You want them to come and you can tell them you want them to come build chemistry, but you have no authority because they are still voluntary workouts. I want them there too and and am disappointed they're not, but I'd rather Taylor be down at the U talking with Ed Reed and picking his brain. Moss needs to get up and start working with Ramsey though.

[28thegreat]

What is the big deal? They are missing VOLENTARY workouts, not training camp. If they had to be there they wouldn't be known as volentary, they'd be known as "Get your sweat on camp". Sure it might make the coach worry a bit not having two stars there, but for the fans don't make more out of this then that. The guys are on vacation, let them have their offseasons
The big deal is that almost the entire team has chosen to be at these VOLUNTARY sessions. Gibbs has made the importance of these workouts extremely clear. I don't believe there should any punishment or adverse reaction to them missing them. But one has to wonder how all of those who have managed to come together for the workouts as a team feel about those who have chosen to do it on their own. The TEAM these guys play for is no longer colored orange...it bleeds burgundy and gold; and they should too.

[cmdlost29]

-- Santana Moss to Get Huge New Deal --
Wed Mar 16, 2005 --from FFMastermind.com

The Washington Post reports according to sources, new Redskins WR Santana Moss, who was traded for WR Laveranues Coles, will sign a rich, multiyear contract befitting a No. 1 wideout. Sources said after the March 5 trade, the Redskins and Moss's agent, Drew Rosenhaus, agreed on the parameters of an extension, and Washington is waiting to announce the deal after creating cap space. According to one source, who requested anonymity because the new deal hasn't been announced, Moss will average more than the annual salary in Coles's original contract in Washington -- a seven-year deal worth $35 million that included a $13 million bonus. Rosenhaus, whose client was scheduled to earn about $450,000 in 2005, declined to comment last week.

I wouldn't doubt this is very far from the actual truth. Moss wants a big deal, he's got the right agent, and his new team is the Redskins. Unfortuantly I was flamed the last time I talked about his contract demands so I'll only say again we should make him prove his worth on the feild before signing him to a new deal, one that puts us right back into cap hell

[cmdlost29]

"Voluntary" is the word you are searching for. And yes they are called "Voluntary" but players are highly encouraged to come. The union wants them to be voluntary to allow for exceptions but almost all players attend all the workouts with the exception of problem players or teams with bad morale. Or apparently U of M guys.

And your point about this post was to explain how to spell a word? I don't see another point for this, you guys are freaking about nothing

[cmdlost29]

The big deal is that almost the entire team has chosen to be at these VOLUNTARY sessions. Gibbs has made the importance of these workouts extremely clear. I don't believe there should any punishment or adverse reaction to them missing them. But one has to wonder how all of those who have managed to come together for the workouts as a team feel about those who have chosen to do it on their own. The TEAM these guys play for is no longer colored orange...it bleeds burgundy and gold; and they should too.

Dude stop trippin. They look at this as a business, not the same as you or I bleeding Redkin colors. They aren't there, so what? They choose to workout in Miami, that is ok with me. If this was training camp then it would be a totally different matter but it's the first week of April, no one is worried about this. If Ramsey needs to work with Moss then so be it, in the summer make him work twice as hard. But we need to be discussing the draft now, not worrying about two players that choose not to show up for something they didn't have to in the first place

[chrisbcbu]

While i dont agree with this, but all Miami guys are in Miami. Shokey, Reed, Taylor, Moss, Lewis. Its just something they have been doing for a while. So this i expected this since most the other Miami guys work out there during the offseason. I would feel much better if he were in DC but i saw this coming. I wouldnt worry until he doesnt show up to minis.

[Redskinmayhem]

Dude stop trippin. They look at this as a business, not the same as you or I bleeding Redkin colors. They aren't there, so what? They choose to workout in Miami, that is ok with me. If this was training camp then it would be a totally different matter but it's the first week of April, no one is worried about this. If Ramsey needs to work with Moss then so be it, in the summer make him work twice as hard. But we need to be discussing the draft now, not worrying about two players that choose not to show up for something they didn't have to in the first place

I wonder how many of the Patriots DIDN'T show up for the "VOLUNTARY" Workouts???? Hmmmmm........

[cmdlost29]

I wonder how many of the Patriots DIDN'T show up for the "VOLUNTARY" Workouts???? Hmmmmm........

Look it up if a stat like this does in fact exist. Otherwise chill, we got better things to worry about then two stars not showing up to this

[ryflan47]

They're hurting themselves, if they want money, they better show up at voluntary workouts.

[kelly]

as far as s.moss goes;
it ALL come down to $.
he's just lookin' for a new contract.

cheers ~ ~ ~
:beer:

[dj_stouty]

I expected Taylor to miss practice. I fear he will hold out the entire training camp for a richer deal.

We shouldn't be surprised about Moss not attending either. One of the main reasons the Jets let him go was because of his high contract demands. I think he was a potential hold out if the Jets didn't deal him.

Hopefully the Skins don't jump off the deep end appeasing these guys. At some point, you have to do what is best for the entire organization.

[Keino]

So we traded one malcontent for another while taking a 9+Million Dollar cap hit. Great.

[redwolf1218]

i was willing to overlook it like it was no big deal, but then i read this:

Washington Redskins Coach Joe Gibbs expressed frustration yesterday over the absence of top wide receiver Santana Moss and starting safety Sean Taylor from voluntary offseason workouts, which are in their third week, and believes both key players should be attending regularly.

"Everybody should be here," said Gibbs, who stressed the importance of workouts during a team meeting that neither player attended last week. "Everybody should be here, and it's very disappointing to us when they're not here."

[dj_stouty]

So we traded one malcontent for another while taking a 9+Million Dollar cap hit. Great.

Potentially.

I really think the fanbase should prepare themselves for a Signing Bonus over 10 million...

[BurgundyNGold]

This is frustrating... I really hope these guys don't plan on sitting out training camp as well because that would be some real garbage.
Yeah. If there's one thing I can say for certain, it is "Do not hold out from the Redskins if this is your first year here". The fans might never forgive you.

[BurgundyNGold]

Potentially.

I really think the fanbase should prepare themselves for a Signing Bonus over 10 million...
While I don't hate Moss, I am against this. What has he EVER done to deserve a $10M SB?

[dj_stouty]

While I don't hate Moss, I am against this. What has he EVER done to deserve a $10M SB?

Nothing...but that is the way of the NFL now.

[redskin_rich]

Potentially.

I really think the fanbase should prepare themselves for a Signing Bonus over 10 million...
I would pull that deal off the table if he is not going to show up for the voluntary workouts. The word voluntary is only for the sake of the NFLPA, the players are expected to be there. Notice how Hasselbeck was "excused" from being there to be with his expectant(at the time) wife.

[BurgundyNGold]

Nothing...but that is the way of the NFL now.
No, that's not the way of winning teams in the NFL (Pots, Iggles, Stealers, et al), that's the way of the The Danny. IMO, it's foolish.

[BIGSEF3]

coles was a cancer, but you know he would have been there for the offseason workouts. for all his discontent, he was a hard worker and would have never missed something like this.

we should have just released coles, gotten our money back, and gone after whomever we chose. moss obviously has glaring character issues, and i cant see how we didnt see this sooner. the SOB must have pulled a number on gibbs. i wonder if moss will not be our "#1 WR" if this fiasco continues.

we may be more inclined to draft a WR now, b/c of the uncertainty surrounding moss.

[dj_stouty]

No, that's not the way of winning teams in the NFL (Pots, Iggles, Stealers, et al), that's the way of the The Danny. IMO, it's foolish.

Lots of teams overpaid for WRs this year. Winning teams and losing ones...

[whitskins]

coles was a cancer, but you know he would have been there for the offseason workouts. for all his discontent, he was a hard worker and would have never missed something like this.

we should have just released coles, gotten our money back, and gone after whomever we chose. moss obviously has glaring character issues, and i cant see how we didnt see this sooner. the SOB must have pulled a number on gibbs. i wonder if moss will not be our "#1 WR" if this fiasco continues.

we may be more inclined to draft a WR now, b/c of the uncertainty surrounding moss.

This is annoying but really far from the end of the world. If Moss comes out and scores 2 TDs on opening day we're all gonna be sucking up to him again so let's not go out and say he has "glaring character issues" just yet. Also why is a lot of the animosity on this thread directed at Moss and not Taylor? I love ST too but he seems to be getting a lot of breaks.

[RedskinRyan]

oh they have an excuse. they are just helping toeles get up to NY since his toe wont allow him to drive.

[rskinsfan10]

moss obviously has glaring character issues, and i cant see how we didnt see this sooner.

What exactly has Moss done to show you that he "obviously" has "glaring" character issues?

[BurgundyNGold]

Lots of teams overpaid for WRs this year. Winning teams and losing ones...
Who aside from The Rats with Dyson (maybe)? I don't know the terms of Plaxico's contract with the Gints.

[joethefan]

Well I'm not gonna trip about this till the minis....They better be here then. That's when we can have an issue.

[redskin_rich]

This is annoying but really far from the end of the world. If Moss comes out and scores 2 TDs on opening day we're all gonna be sucking up to him again so let's not go out and say he has "glaring character issues" just yet. Also why is a lot of the animosity on this thread directed at Moss and not Taylor? I love ST too but he seems to be getting a lot of breaks.
There is no excuse for ST either. I'm just especially upset with Moss since he hasn't even broke a sweat wearing the B&G yet and this is not a smart way to make a first impression.

[Bill Malinchak]

Santana is not a "Cane" anymore, he's a Redskin. He should be doing things that make the Redskins better, not the Hurricanes.


I agree 100% !!! These guys need to grow up. This ain't college anymore. Nothing was stopping them from working out in Miami for the past few months. It's time to come to Redskins Park to meet his new teammates and build a rapport with them.

Moss is part of the Redskins organization now. In the near future they will be paying him an ungodly sum of money. Show some respect to your job and co-workers and show up. It's what all the other regular guys and gals on this message board do. It's part of being a grown-up and not an oversized child.

[dj_stouty]

Who aside from The Rats with Dyson (maybe)? I don't know the terms of Plaxico's contract with the Gints.

I stand corrected. Not many current winning teams dipped into the WR free Agency pool this year. Probably b/c they already had the best WRs in place...

However, I still think WRs value themselves more than their actual value. Now-a-days, all they need is one 1,000 yard season and they want between 7 and 13 million dollars.

Guys like Porter, TJ Hush, Mushy, McCareins and Moss are all demanding (and usually getting) more than they should...and most of them have very little in terms of prior performances to back up that value.

[Redskinfan28]

This has to be contract related. Not really surprising....

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

What exactly has Moss done to show you that he "obviously" has "glaring" character issues?
yeah, im going to have to question that "glaring character issues" comments myself. that means 99.1% of NFL players have those exact same character issues. if glaring character issues translates into "wanting a more lucrative contract" then i guess he is correct....:rolleyes:

[skins4life24]

yea moss needs to start working w/ramsey asap,taylor will be fine
Taylor should be there as well tho . . .you can't just let him off the hook

[PennSkinsFan]

Taylor should be there as well tho . . .you can't just let him off the hook

Ansolutely. Taylor is too young to pull this crap. I would bench him again in the beginning of the season. Let Prioleau, or Clark start.

[ryflan47]

Taylor should be there as well tho . . .you can't just let him off the hook

Yes, but Santana Moss is needed there more than Taylor is.

[danny's stogie]

That's the thing...You can't be firm with them. Regardless of their choice, they are voluntary workouts. Tom Coughlin got in trouble from the league because he tried to be firm with the players. You want them to come and you can tell them you want them to come build chemistry, but you have no authority because they are still voluntary workouts. I want them there too and and am disappointed they're not, but I'd rather Taylor be down at the U talking with Ed Reed and picking his brain. Moss needs to get up and start working with Ramsey though.

I don't care if ST is down in Miami working with Ghandi...if Gibbs expects him to be there then he should be there. I know its hasty to bring this up and it probably won't happen, but dissention on a team starts with the little things like this. Players test their coaches limits until tensions are escalated. It's happened on every team I've been on...someone doesn't follow the dress code for a game and then before you know it players are skipping practices. When the team consists of 50+ players it's best if everyone honors the coaches wishes.

[Taylor_36]

Remember this is a one sided story, Sean and Santana havent had their chance to explain why there not at workouts. I think we all agree and even the Post article says Sean and Santana are down in Miami working out with other U guys, this is like a tradition that a few guys do that are from the U. If we all found out Sean and Ed Reed were working out together for the past 2 or 3 months and Ed helping Sean with becoming a better safety all of us would be really happy!But its not like they are the only 2 players in the NFL ever to miss voluntary workouts with their NFL teams. I dont like there not at Redskins Park but this isnt the end of the world! everyone just needs to take a deep breath and relax.

[chrisbcbu]

Ansolutely. Taylor is too young to pull this crap. I would bench him again in the beginning of the season. Let Prioleau, or Clark start.

You cant really bench Taylor for not showing up considering these are "Voluntary" workouts. I know Gibbs&Co loves to have everyone there, but these are not mandatory so you really cant punish a player for not showing up.

[BtwnDaTackles]

Aye, i agree 100% with what their doing, thi is how these guys eat man. This is a business and this is just a notion of letting the FO know that if the money aint in stone then you get nothing in stone from me....It's only fair, this is that line in Pro sports that sometimes fans cannot understand. There is a priority list with every athlete and "THE TEAM" is not #1 "MY MONEY" is #1. How many of you guys would work if you knew your deals at your job werent finalized?.....PLEASE!.....I got friends who are blessed enough to be in the league and the coined phrase amoung the players in the NFL is......"NO CREAM....NO TEAM".....The NotForLong players have a very short shelf-life.....500lbs. bench press and 4.4 40's dont last long....

[whitskins]

Aye, i agree 100% with what their doing, thi is how these guys eat man. This is a business and this is just a notion of letting the FO know that if the money aint in stone then you get nothing in stone from me....It's only fair, this is that line in Pro sports that sometimes fans cannot understand. There is a priority list with every athlete and "THE TEAM" is not #1 "MY MONEY" is #1. How many of you guys would work if you knew your deals at your job werent finalized?.....PLEASE!.....I got friends who are blessed enough to be in the league and the coined phrase amoung the players in the NFL is......"NO CREAM....NO TEAM".....The NotForLong players have a very short shelf-life.....500lbs. bench press and 4.4 40's dont last long....

However, both of these players are currently under contract.

[BtwnDaTackles]

However, both of these players are currently under contract.
Both pending a new one. The money has to be right man, under NO circumstances can there be uncertainty about their money. You never put yourself in that position, thats crazy to exurte your body(a.k.a. meal ticket) when you dont have your money right.

[whitskins]

Both pending a new one. The money has to be right man, under NO circumstances can there be uncertainty about their money. You never put yourself in that position, thats crazy to exurte your body(a.k.a. meal ticket) when you dont have your money right.

I understand your point but this isn't training camp, they're voluntary workouts. Not much more than weight lifting and conditioning, very likely the exact same things Moss and Taylor are doing right now in Miami, only Gibbs and co. want them to do it with the rest of their teammates. Their bodies are at no higher risk to be at Redskin Park instead of Miami.

By not being at Redskin Park Moss and Taylor are not protecting their bodies, they are making a statement, a statement that could be made in a much more professional manner while still promoting team unity and in Moss' case actually beginning his transition on a new team.

[redwolf1218]

i dont think it's a really big deal, but i'm not inclined to totally ignore it and overlook it, especially since Gibbs stated his dissappointment. i mean they are in the 3rd week of these workouts, so it's not like they only missed a coupld of days. they are totally blowing it off, in a time where relationships could be formed and foundations set. Cooley kind of summed up my opinion:

"I don't really understand how all this works, and I guess it's not a huge surprise to me that he's not here," said second-year H-back Chris Cooley, "but it's kind of weird that he's brand new here and it looks like he's not going to make it for the workouts."

[Keino]

However, both of these players are currently under contract.

Exactly.

[SkinsKY]

I don't care if ST is down in Miami working with Ghandi...if Gibbs expects him to be there then he should be there. I know its hasty to bring this up and it probably won't happen, but dissention on a team starts with the little things like this. Players test their coaches limits until tensions are escalated. It's happened on every team I've been on...someone doesn't follow the dress code for a game and then before you know it players are skipping practices. When the team consists of 50+ players it's best if everyone honors the coaches wishes.

Ghandi couldn't help him be a better football player. Ed Reed can.

Many players don't go to voluntary workouts. Not all players on a team feel like family the others. If Taylor comes into the next season with a bag of tricks he learned from Ed Reed, nobody is going to say "Yeah, but he didn't come to voluntary workouts." We have little turnover on a top ranked defense. We have a player in Taylor who started slow but became an impact player on that defense. It's not skipping practices if they are optional. I don't think he's testing the limits. Williams wasn't afraid to pull him or bench him last year. That's where you show authority. Taylor wants to play. It probably killed him to be on the bench, but GW did it when necessary. I know it's ideal that all players come to voluntary workouts, but it doesn't become the worst thing ever if they don't.

Again, with regards to Moss, he needs to show up to start working with Ramsey.

[redwolf1218]

I've noticed a lot of posts about Ed Reed. I've heard he is an avid student of the game, frequently studying game film. Is it a known fact that he misses his team's voluntary workouts every year?

[BIGSEF3]

What exactly has Moss done to show you that he "obviously" has "glaring" character issues?

not reporting to camp. sure, its "voluntary" but everyone else is there.

taylor has character issues and we know it from incidents last year. but he is much younger and deserves a little slack. moss is an experienced NFL veteran joining a new team. if he was a true redskin, he would WANT to meet his new quarterback ASAP and try to get some sort of report with him. he would WANT to get on the same page ASAP so his performance will be the best it can be in the regular season. ramsey made an effort to talk to him, and moss didnt have the decency to call him back.

thats a glaring character issue in my book. doesnt fit the bill of a "core redskin" in my opinion.

[cmdlost29]

Websters says:

Mandatory - Required by the order stipulated, eg, a specification or a specific description that may not be waived.

Voluntary - of your own free will or design; not forced or compelled; "man is a voluntary agent"; "participation was voluntary"; "voluntary manslaughter"; "voluntary generosity in times of disaster"; "voluntary social workers"; "a voluntary confession"


The practices were voluntary, no one has to go. If Taylor or Moss had to be there then they wouldn't have been voluntary they would have been mandatory. Next season maybe Gibbs needs to make this mandatory workouts instead of letting players choose, then he would have the right to bench people but honestly nothing will come of this crap and no way either player is benched opening day because they missed these practices.

:Peace:

[whitskins]

not reporting to camp. sure, its "voluntary" but everyone else is there.

taylor has character issues and we know it from incidents last year. but he is much younger and deserves a little slack. moss is an experienced NFL veteran joining a new team. if he was a true redskin, he would WANT to meet his new quarterback ASAP and try to get some sort of report with him. he would WANT to get on the same page ASAP so his performance will be the best it can be in the regular season. ramsey made an effort to talk to him, and moss didnt have the decency to call him back.

thats a glaring character issue in my book. doesnt fit the bill of a "core redskin" in my opinion.

I don't understand the anger at Moss but the leniency towards Taylor. Taylor is younger, Moss is joining a new team... Please, if we're going to make a big deal out of this then we might as well make a big deal out of both of them... I'm gonna wait til the first mini-camp to start getting worried.

[BIGSEF3]

i do wonder if their agent told them not to show up as part of a negotiating tactic, but drew doesnt seem like the type to do that. i think both of them just think too much of themselves and dont feel they NEED the practice to improve.

as far as the voluntary thing goes, from what i've read, they are the ONLY TWO players who are expected to be a part of the 2005 team who didnt show up. when EVERYONE else "voluntarily" attends a camp, it shows how serious those guys take their job, in comparision. it shows their eagerness to get back with their team and coaches and be the best they can be to help turn the team around. not attending sends the message that you are only concerned with yourself. hell, mccants seems to be the most self-absorbed player on the team, and even he showed up.

[Redskinfan28]

If it wasn't a big deal, then Gibbs wouldn't be so pissed. This workout is called "Voluntary" because it has to be under NFL rules; Gibbs, however, believes all workouts are mandatory, no matter how they are defined.

You think the guys that showed up did so because its fun? No, most knew that if they didn't show, they would be playing for someone else next year. Obviously, ST and SM want new contracts and more money and will not participate until they get them.

With that said, I'm not losing any sleep over this. I'm not even surprised that they did not show up.

[cmdlost29]

not reporting to camp. sure, its "voluntary" but everyone else is there.


So what? What the hell difference does it make if everyone else was there? If everyone had to be there then make them mandatory, otherwise there is no reason to bitch about two people who had something better to do with there time

[whitskins]

So what? What the hell difference does it make if everyone else was there? If everyone had to be there then make them mandatory, otherwise there is no reason to bitch about two people who had something better to do with there time

They can't be mandatory under league rules. And that something better to do with there time is in all likelihood the exact same thing the other guys are doing at Redskins Park, only Moss and Taylor are doing in Miami.

They are making a statement about their contracts. If this squabble goes on and leads to no-shows at mandatory events then I'll be upset.

[BIGSEF3]

If it wasn't a big deal, then Gibbs wouldn't be so pissed. This workout is called "Voluntary" because it has to be under NFL rules; Gibbs, however, believes all workouts are mandatory, no matter how they are defined.

You think the guys that showed up did so because its fun? No, most knew that if they didn't show, they would be playing for someone else next year. Obviously, ST and SM want new contracts and more money and will not participate until they get them.

With that said, I'm not losing any sleep over this. I'm not even surprised that they did not show up.


exactly. if they really wanted to impress gibbs and make him more likely to WANT to give them better contracts, then they could impress him by showing up at camp and giving 110%.

[cmdlost29]

If what is behind this worry about two players not showing up has to do with what happens at training camp, then worry about that when it gets here. There is nothing here that factualy tells anyone of us either player will hold out of camp because camp is not here. Worry about that when it gets here. Makes no sense to make a mountain out of a molehill, and assume players will not show up to camp because they didn't go to a voluntary workout. By the time camp is here they both might have new contracts or not, hell no one knows.

[BIGSEF3]

If what is behind this worry about two players not showing up has to do with what happens at training camp, then worry about that when it gets here. There is nothing here that factualy tells anyone of us either player will hold out of camp because camp is not here. Worry about that when it gets here. Makes no sense to make a mountain out of a molehill, and assume players will not show up to camp because they didn't go to a voluntary workout. By the time camp is here they both might have new contracts or not, hell no one knows.

im not concerned about training camp yet. im concerned about not showing up to a "voluntary" camp when all your other teammates are. it sends a message.

[whitskins]

If what is behind this worry about two players not showing up has to do with what happens at training camp, then worry about that when it gets here. There is nothing here that factualy tells anyone of us either player will hold out of camp because camp is not here. Worry about that when it gets here. Makes no sense to make a mountain out of a molehill, and assume players will not show up to camp because they didn't go to a voluntary workout. By the time camp is here they both might have new contracts or not, hell no one knows.

The entire purpose of the offseason is to make mountains out of molehills. There isn't much else to do.

[cmdlost29]

The entire purpose of the offseason is to make mountains out of molehills. There isn't much else to do.

HAhahah, :lol1:

[bgforever]

this is what the canes do ed reed and shockey are also down there

This is clearly the scenario suggesting that its normal for the league to experience this. Those two guys with the others are in discussion. Most of it relational to business, some just shooting the breeze, but the one thing they do, which is a throw back ritual to their school as of late, is working out in groups. Ray Lewis, Edge, and others will eventually be there too. Happens every year and yes the coaches are the first ones to sing. JG is seeing how things have changed in the NFL, yet I think ST will be back sooner than Moss.

If Moss weren't going to be serious, he wouldn't have come to D. C. He has his rep on the line and the way he does Washington will resonate around the league, just like Gardner's mishap at catching. Teams would back off, no matter how fast and fiesty. Look what happened to Plaxico Burress. Moss CAN be replaced, just not right now, but there is already a guy in Ohio State.

Skins can't formerly announce Moss' contract until summer. Everything else is speculation.

[miconnol]

I agree with that.

I just hope we don't pay Moss what Derrick Mason got in Baltimore. But you know what? We'll overpay anyone to come play in Washington. Players these days know that when Snyder and Gibbs come-a-knockin' the paychecks a come a rockin'. We're screwed as long as Snyder is conjuring up big contracts and Gibbs fails to understand that we can't overpay in this league anymore.

My take on the Coles situation:

Option 1. Retain Coles and make him play, or make him sit (Very much like what happend to Keyshawn two years ago). Pros : Save 9 mil in cap space. Get a problematic player off the field. Increase the possibility of retaining Smoot and Pierce with cap room. Cons : We're down 1 receiver. 1 player is being paid to do nothing for a season. It sucks but we're at least able to retain 2 who were grown in the farm and know the system on defense.

Option 2. Trade Coles for another player most likely another WR. Pros : player for player swap, means we don't loose a man. Cons : take 9 mil cap hit. repeat. take 9 mil cap hit. Greatly DECREASE our chances of retaining smoot or Pierce. Greatly DECREASE our ability to sign draft pics and or other free agents. - must try to resign new player to larger contract. THUS ADDING to our already problematic cap number.

Option 3. Release coles, save 5 mil if Coles gives the money back, and be down 1 player. Pro : smaller cap hit. maybe we can resign smoot / pierce. Definately have room for draft pics. Cons : we're down one body, and need another WR.

Of all these options Gibbs chose the incorrect one. It is this kind of thing that will and always has doomed the Redskins. No one wants to make the tough decision and go with Option 1. We always spend money and loose players. We're screwed as long as we don't realize this.

Sorry for the rant. These problems we experienced this year? YOu're going to see them occur next year, and the year after that, and the year after that. At some point the bleeding must stop. But it never does with the skins.

Your thoughts?

- bitter, BITTER skins fan.

[rskinsfan10]

I agree with that.

I just hope we don't pay Moss what Derrick Mason got in Baltimore. But you know what? We'll overpay anyone to come play in Washington. Players these days know that when Snyder and Gibbs come-a-knockin' the paychecks a come a rockin'. We're screwed as long as Snyder is conjuring up big contracts and Gibbs fails to understand that we can't overpay in this league anymore.

My take on the Coles situation:

Option 1. Retain Coles and make him play, or make him sit (Very much like what happend to Keyshawn two years ago). Pros : Save 9 mil in cap space. Get a problematic player off the field. Increase the possibility of retaining Smoot and Pierce with cap room. Cons : We're down 1 receiver. 1 player is being paid to do nothing for a season. It sucks but we're at least able to retain 2 who were grown in the farm and know the system on defense.

Option 2. Trade Coles for another player most likely another WR. Pros : player for player swap, means we don't loose a man. Cons : take 9 mil cap hit. repeat. take 9 mil cap hit. Greatly DECREASE our chances of retaining smoot or Pierce. Greatly DECREASE our ability to sign draft pics and or other free agents. - must try to resign new player to larger contract. THUS ADDING to our already problematic cap number.

Option 3. Release coles, save 5 mil if Coles gives the money back, and be down 1 player. Pro : smaller cap hit. maybe we can resign smoot / pierce. Definately have room for draft pics. Cons : we're down one body, and need another WR.

Of all these options Gibbs chose the incorrect one. It is this kind of thing that will and always has doomed the Redskins. No one wants to make the tough decision and go with Option 1. We always spend money and loose players. We're screwed as long as we don't realize this.

Sorry for the rant. These problems we experienced this year? YOu're going to see them occur next year, and the year after that, and the year after that. At some point the bleeding must stop. But it never does with the skins.

Your thoughts?

- bitter, BITTER skins fan.

To make this brief, the Skins kept the same offer on the table for both players that were offered to them before the seaon ended. That was before Coles was traded. The notion that trading Coles stopped us from retaining those two players is flawed. The notion that Snyder will pay anyone anything is flawed also, if for no other reason then the two players that are being used as examples in this post. Let's not forget that they stuck to their guns as far as Courtney Brown is concerned. The stereotype simply doesn't fit anymore.

[bgforever]

I agree with that.

I just hope we don't pay Moss what Derrick Mason got in Baltimore. But you know what? We'll overpay anyone to come play in Washington. Players these days know that when Snyder and Gibbs come-a-knockin' the paychecks a come a rockin'. We're screwed as long as Snyder is conjuring up big contracts and Gibbs fails to understand that we can't overpay in this league anymore.

My take on the Coles situation:

Option 1. Retain Coles and make him play, or make him sit (Very much like what happend to Keyshawn two years ago). Pros : Save 9 mil in cap space. Get a problematic player off the field. Increase the possibility of retaining Smoot and Pierce with cap room. Cons : We're down 1 receiver. 1 player is being paid to do nothing for a season. It sucks but we're at least able to retain 2 who were grown in the farm and know the system on defense.

Option 2. Trade Coles for another player most likely another WR. Pros : player for player swap, means we don't loose a man. Cons : take 9 mil cap hit. repeat. take 9 mil cap hit. Greatly DECREASE our chances of retaining smoot or Pierce. Greatly DECREASE our ability to sign draft pics and or other free agents. - must try to resign new player to larger contract. THUS ADDING to our already problematic cap number.

Option 3. Release coles, save 5 mil if Coles gives the money back, and be down 1 player. Pro : smaller cap hit. maybe we can resign smoot / pierce. Definately have room for draft pics. Cons : we're down one body, and need another WR.

Of all these options Gibbs chose the incorrect one. It is this kind of thing that will and always has doomed the Redskins. No one wants to make the tough decision and go with Option 1. We always spend money and loose players. We're screwed as long as we don't realize this.

Sorry for the rant. These problems we experienced this year? YOu're going to see them occur next year, and the year after that, and the year after that. At some point the bleeding must stop. But it never does with the skins.

Your thoughts?


- bitter, BITTER skins fan.


Tough act to follow. Hard to even argue that Gibbs made the wrong move.
Can say we are still better for it, because we are needing to replace certain underacheivers also and that is being shored more rapidly. True the WR spot, with both Coles and Gardner is just as bad as Smooty and AP leaving, but we were in better shape to replace them, than we were for Coles and Gardner.

JG is adjusting to a monster in a corner alone. He will either emerge victoriously or come away in tatters. He knows this, and so far, his profound approach is the best way for THIS team. Anticipation of contract requests from others would also pop up. Remember the small difference for Smoot, yet he still left. AP took what he could get, knowing full well the MASTER of the defense is still in Washington.

[scacchi]

It is my belief, that if these guys showed up, worked hard and led by example, than they would be making a better case for themselves. Personally, I'd be way more inclined to give someone like that more money than I would to someone who is a no show. Especially after what just happened with Coles. Moss needs to be with Ramsey right now, there's just no excuse. Taylor needs to be there too. I'm really disappointed by this.

[cmdlost29]

The notion that Snyder will pay anyone anything is flawed also, if for no other reason then the two players that are being used as examples in this post. Let's not forget that they stuck to their guns as far as Courtney Brown is concerned. The stereotype simply doesn't fit anymore.

Trends take time. I don't believe for a second that because we didn't overspend on two players this offseason that everyone knows we no longer are the overspenders of the league. We need to do this for the next couple years to really take effect

[bgforever]

It is my belief, that if these guys showed up, worked hard and led by example, than they would be making a better case for themselves. Personally, I'd be way more inclined to give someone like that more money than I would to someone who is a no show. Especially after what just happened with Coles. Moss needs to be with Ramsey right now, there's just no excuse. Taylor needs to be there too. I'm really disappointed by this.

If it persist for EVERY voluntary workout, then I'd be inclined to tell all Redskins fans, expect what you saw in Edgerrin James, a guy who got great stats, slowed his team down in prepartion twice in his career, kept his coaching staff off balance, and still has NO ring.

If ST and Moss want even more before Moss plays a single down with us and Taylor suddenly is pulling a trick for more money (please do the math my man and when you figure it out, you could get paid, but we'd be in the top 5 in 2006' NFL Draft too!

Yes I get pissed, but not yet. Right now, they just chillin'. Call it ego, or whatever, but they better be playing consistant, non stop All Pro Ball, to come in tooting the horn for more money. Frankly I am confused how ST would even want an adjusted contract at such a time as his teammates are struggling to get even a piece of what he got.

Yes, I could live without every big name player on the team. WHY?

I am a REAL REDSKIN!

[miconnol]

To make this brief, the Skins kept the same offer on the table for both players that were offered to them before the seaon ended. That was before Coles was traded. The notion that trading Coles stopped us from retaining those two players is flawed. The notion that Snyder will pay anyone anything is flawed also, if for no other reason then the two players that are being used as examples in this post. Let's not forget that they stuck to their guns as far as Courtney Brown is concerned. The stereotype simply doesn't fit anymore.


Courtney brown is somewhat of an extreme case. Everyone was cautious with that approach. But the notion that trading coles DIDN'T impact what happend to smoot and pierce is rediculous. Basically you're telling me that with 9mil of cap room we wouldn't be able to retain at least one of them. If this is so they must have been asking for a boat load of cash. I just can't believe that if we had coles at home in front of his big screen, and 9 mil in the bank, we wouldn't have pierce or smoot still in burgundy and gold. Thats really all i'm saying. Because when we overpay for moss, as we have for everyone really, this same situation is going to come full circle again in 2-3 years.

[Meatsnack]

I am inclined to treat this as an example of short-sightedness on ther part of Moss and ST. That Moss hasn't made establishing timing with his new QB his #1 job of the off-season tells me he doesn't have his priorities straight and that he isn't much of a competitor. 1500 yard seasons are made in the Summer. If Moss doesn't want to be great, stay in Miami. Maybe we'll draft Brock Berlin and he'll have his timing down with Brock. Sure.

As for ST, he isn't so free of mental mistakes that he needs to be missing sessions with his new mates. He'll be working with a new corner and a new MLB in front of him. Williams will be wanting to install new plays to build on what he got in last year. St is missing that crucial element no matter what he is doing in Miami.

Gibbs cannot legally nor should he punish players for missing voluntary workouts. That's what bit Coughlin. But Gibbs and the the rest of the guys on the team sweating together to get better can be angry and disappointed at the lack of commitment.

"All the 'u' players do it," is a crap excuse. Barrow and Portis are Miami grads and they are in Redskins Park. Ray Lewis is in Baltimore lifting according to the Ravens' web site. The last time I checked, Portis, Barrow (the last time he did play), and Ray were better at their positions than ST and Moss are at theirs. Coincidence? Champions are made in the of-season. Work in = Production out.

"They can't commit without the money," is also a crap excuse. Both players are under contract. In St's case, a very lucrative one. If I told my boss I wanted a raise but wasn't going to put the effort in to improve my performance, why in the world would he willingly accomodate me? To steal a phrase from the idiot Raiders, try showing a commitment to excellence. No one minds rewarding a champion.

[redwolf1218]

Courtney brown is somewhat of an extreme case. Everyone was cautious with that approach. But the notion that trading coles DIDN'T impact what happend to smoot and pierce is rediculous. Basically you're telling me that with 9mil of cap room we wouldn't be able to retain at least one of them. If this is so they must have been asking for a boat load of cash. I just can't believe that if we had coles at home in front of his big screen, and 9 mil in the bank, we wouldn't have pierce or smoot still in burgundy and gold. Thats really all i'm saying. Because when we overpay for moss, as we have for everyone really, this same situation is going to come full circle again in 2-3 years.
WELCOME!

i think the thing about Pierce and Smoot was more about team chemistry. a precedent was set. dont pay Pierce more than Marcus Washington, and dont pay Smoot more than Springs.

[rskinsfan10]

Courtney brown is somewhat of an extreme case. Everyone was cautious with that approach. But the notion that trading coles DIDN'T impact what happend to smoot and pierce is rediculous. Basically you're telling me that with 9mil of cap room we wouldn't be able to retain at least one of them. If this is so they must have been asking for a boat load of cash. I just can't believe that if we had coles at home in front of his big screen, and 9 mil in the bank, we wouldn't have pierce or smoot still in burgundy and gold. Thats really all i'm saying. Because when we overpay for moss, as we have for everyone really, this same situation is going to come full circle again in 2-3 years.

Gibbs has stated that he wouldn't give Pierce more then they gave Washington, and the reports of what Smoot was offered remained consistent throughtout the process. You also need to realize that trading Coles still left us with over $2mil in cap room. That would have been more then enough to use to keep them, if that is what they wanted to do. You have to remeber that Gardner being traded/released will free up $2+mil. There are several other players on the team that are candidates for release that could have been if the team was that hard up for cap room and wanted to give those players the extra money that they demanded. If Pierce and Smoot had taken the offers that the team gave them way back when the season was still in play and the negotiations were young, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The Coles trade had no bearing on those two not being here.

[kelly]

Potentially.

I really think the fanbase should prepare themselves for a Signing Bonus over 10 million...

if i may ,
we ( the jets ) traded santana moss/wr to you guys :banghead:
SANTANA moss,

NOT - - - RANDY moss !

[kelly]

coles was a cancer, but you know he would have been there for the offseason workouts. for all his discontent, he was a hard worker and would have never missed something like this.

we should have just released coles, gotten our money back, and gone after whomever we chose. moss obviously has glaring character issues, and i cant see how we didnt see this sooner. the SOB must have pulled a number on gibbs. i wonder if moss will not be our "#1 WR" if this fiasco continues.

we may be more inclined to draft a WR now, b/c of the uncertainty surrounding moss.

" . . . moss obviously has glaring character issues, . . . "
no, not really. he just wants $ ( a new contract ).

p.s.
" . . . we should have just released coles . . . "
i wish you guys would have done that. actually, if we ( the jets ) had NOT offered you SANTANA moss ;
you guys probably would have done just that :banghead:

[swheeler]

I agree with that.

I just hope we don't pay Moss what Derrick Mason got in Baltimore. But you know what? We'll overpay anyone to come play in Washington. Players these days know that when Snyder and Gibbs come-a-knockin' the paychecks a come a rockin'. We're screwed as long as Snyder is conjuring up big contracts and Gibbs fails to understand that we can't overpay in this league anymore.

My take on the Coles situation:

Option 1. Retain Coles and make him play, or make him sit (Very much like what happend to Keyshawn two years ago). Pros : Save 9 mil in cap space. Get a problematic player off the field. Increase the possibility of retaining Smoot and Pierce with cap room. Cons : We're down 1 receiver. 1 player is being paid to do nothing for a season. It sucks but we're at least able to retain 2 who were grown in the farm and know the system on defense.

Option 2. Trade Coles for another player most likely another WR. Pros : player for player swap, means we don't loose a man. Cons : take 9 mil cap hit. repeat. take 9 mil cap hit. Greatly DECREASE our chances of retaining smoot or Pierce. Greatly DECREASE our ability to sign draft pics and or other free agents. - must try to resign new player to larger contract. THUS ADDING to our already problematic cap number.

Option 3. Release coles, save 5 mil if Coles gives the money back, and be down 1 player. Pro : smaller cap hit. maybe we can resign smoot / pierce. Definately have room for draft pics. Cons : we're down one body, and need another WR.

Of all these options Gibbs chose the incorrect one. It is this kind of thing that will and always has doomed the Redskins. No one wants to make the tough decision and go with Option 1. We always spend money and loose players. We're screwed as long as we don't realize this.

Sorry for the rant. These problems we experienced this year? YOu're going to see them occur next year, and the year after that, and the year after that. At some point the bleeding must stop. But it never does with the skins.

Your thoughts?

- bitter, BITTER skins fan.

My thoughts: you complain that we overpay players, and then argue that we should have handled Coles differently specifically so that we could drastically overpay Smoot and Pierce. You can't have it both ways. Welcome to hR, btw.

Back on topic, I think if Moss wants a better contract he's more likely to get it by working his @ss off at voluntary workouts than by not showing up. He has to see that if he tries a real holdout all he'll get is a big screen from Snyder. But it's still a litle earluy to be worrying, and hopefully it won't come to that.

I am willing to give Taylor a little more slack because his position doesn't require the kind of coordination with other players that Moss needs to have with Ramsey, but he should still be there too. If he plays like he did last year I won't complain though.

[CLTSkin]

Courtney brown is somewhat of an extreme case. Everyone was cautious with that approach. But the notion that trading coles DIDN'T impact what happend to smoot and pierce is rediculous. Basically you're telling me that with 9mil of cap room we wouldn't be able to retain at least one of them. If this is so they must have been asking for a boat load of cash. I just can't believe that if we had coles at home in front of his big screen, and 9 mil in the bank, we wouldn't have pierce or smoot still in burgundy and gold. Thats really all i'm saying. Because when we overpay for moss, as we have for everyone really, this same situation is going to come full circle again in 2-3 years.

You have to re-read JG's comments on Smoot and Pierce. They offered them comparable contracts in relation to the other players in the same positions on this team... Whether we had more cap space or not, they werent getting more money offered to them as to not rock the boat with the other players. He was interviewed on this topic several different times and said the same thing every time. They werent going to offer Smoot a contract more than the deal they had just given Springs. As far as my opinion of the UM boys, regardless of their contracts, I dont think they would be at Redskin Park. I would be willing to bet after their deals get taken care of and next year at this time they will be in Miami again. If this is a sign of things to come with Moss then trade him and Gardner for draft picks... The arguments about them not showing up because of their money... They have contracts and are going to get paid, maybe not as much as they want, but welcome to the real world... How many people dont think they deserve more money. Some of you want to use this business analogy so if your boss said I really would like for you to come in, would you not come in? Joe Gibbs has asked them to be there and said its important, a Redskin would be there. Just my 2 cents!

[redwolf1218]

" . . . moss obviously has glaring character issues, . . . "
no, not really. he just wants $ ( a new contract ).

p.s.
" . . . we should have just released coles . . . "
i wish you guys would have done that. actually, if we ( the jets ) had NOT offered you SANTANA moss ;
you guys probably would have done just that :banghead:

and then you guys probably would have just released Moss...

we helped each other out, only we helped you more IMO. all you have to do is pay a guy a lot. now we have to pay a guy a lot plus absorb dead money.

[SkinsKY]

Gibbs has stated that he wouldn't give Pierce more then they gave Washington, and the reports of what Smoot was offered remained consistent throughtout the process. You also need to realize that trading Coles still left us with over $2mil in cap room. That would have been more then enough to use to keep them, if that is what they wanted to do. You have to remeber that Gardner being traded/released will free up $2+mil. There are several other players on the team that are candidates for release that could have been if the team was that hard up for cap room and wanted to give those players the extra money that they demanded. If Pierce and Smoot had taken the offers that the team gave them way back when the season was still in play and the negotiations were young, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The Coles trade had no bearing on those two not being here.

Thank you Kenny for bring some additional sense into this.

I really doubt this is an effort to make a statement about their contract. If that were the case then they would stay away from a mandatory minicamp or training camp. I think (and I may get stoned for it) that some people may be overreacting. gasp! Yep. In wanting a perfect team and situation some people seem to deify and demonize players on a moment's notice for things that may be inconsequential. But these players are causing dissent and hurting the team! Well, 90 some odd percent of our players are there and so that means 45-50 or so (assuming we're above the 53 man roster, which I believe is currently true). That's an overwhelming majority of players. That means most of the team is on the same page and moving forward. But Moss needs chemistry with Ramsey! True and he should be there, but we have two minicamps and training camp for that and the rest of the summer. Just because he's not there now doesn't mean Santana won't be there later.

I think many people need to calm down, keep a good resting heart rate, and relax. We're almost all agreed that the team is moving in the right direction. Give it time and things will work out.

[miconnol]

Gibbs has stated that he wouldn't give Pierce more then they gave Washington, and the reports of what Smoot was offered remained consistent throughtout the process. You also need to realize that trading Coles still left us with over $2mil in cap room. That would have been more then enough to use to keep them, if that is what they wanted to do. You have to remeber that Gardner being traded/released will free up $2+mil. There are several other players on the team that are candidates for release that could have been if the team was that hard up for cap room and wanted to give those players the extra money that they demanded. If Pierce and Smoot had taken the offers that the team gave them way back when the season was still in play and the negotiations were young, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The Coles trade had no bearing on those two not being here.

This is simply not true. It can't be true. 9 million of cap room would have easily translated to at least one of them signing, and its NOT overpaying because you know this player knows the system, he just proved it the previous year. Unless Gibbs and co had a preconceived notion of what pierce and smoot were worth, and didn't want to waver because they didn't think that they were worth any more than what they could fit under the cap.

Anyways. its a moot point because the situation is what it is, and the skins are set to suffer yet again by overpaying for moss. We're going to see an exact MIRROR of what has happened this year, two years down the road with another couple promising young, home grown players, and a disgruntled FA greedy vet. You heard it here first folks. The solution to this situation would have been to sit coles and save money, this would have incurred a smaller net loss than letting him go. I can't believe Gibbs didn't think this was an acceptable option. Really foolish. I guarantee you Andy Ried would have relased him, I guarantee you Parcells, Gruden and Belicheck would have released him or sat him, you don't let a player jerk you around like that.

hey coles guess what, you signed that big contract, you're unhappy now? Big f-ing deal, you're under contract. You can sit and home and suck your thumb, until you own up to your commitment to us. Or you can give us money to let you leave. For once Snyder took the right stance on something.

That is the proper solution to this problem. I'm still so bitter about this. I really don't understand why more people haven't supported this position in the Coles Moss fiasco.

[ArtMonk8191]

Now don't quote me on this but this is what I heard...
A lot of the players come down to Florida for workouts and also for other obligations such as Schooling and what they call NFL programs like singings, photo sessions and also the weather lol "
I understand everyone's concern about being with the team getting to know your QB and all that but I wouldn't get to worked up about it...remember it's not a job like you and I have were we have to be there everyday at 7 am or whatever time you start work... but this is the NFL
and things are done alot different.....

[miconnol]

My thoughts: you complain that we overpay players, and then argue that we should have handled Coles differently specifically so that we could drastically overpay Smoot and Pierce. You can't have it both ways. Welcome to hR, btw.

Back on topic, I think if Moss wants a better contract he's more likely to get it by working his @ss off at voluntary workouts than by not showing up. He has to see that if he tries a real holdout all he'll get is a big screen from Snyder. But it's still a litle earluy to be worrying, and hopefully it won't come to that.

I am willing to give Taylor a little more slack because his position doesn't require the kind of coordination with other players that Moss needs to have with Ramsey, but he should still be there too. If he plays like he did last year I won't complain though.

I dont' think what Pierce got and what smoot received were drastic overpayments. I think our offer to smoot was different from minnesotas byt a couple 100 G's, and maybe a little larger salary.

It would have been more beneficial to pay for those to players because they've already proven they know the system and are committed. Instead of pouring that money into a player who doesn't know the defense, who doesn't know the city, who doesn't know the coaches. who is brand new with a fat wallet. Not keeping your own talent is a mistake. If you want proof just look at the best teams in the league, they have the highest percentage of drafted players still on their roster. What the 'Skins do each and every year is pathetic, and Gibbs needs to pick up on it and start doing it.

[akhhorus]

This is simply not true. It can't be true. 9 million of cap room would have easily translated to at least one of them signing, and its NOT overpaying because you know this player knows the system, he just proved it the previous year. Unless Gibbs and co had a preconceived notion of what pierce and smoot were worth, and didn't want to waver because they didn't think that they were worth any more than what they could fit under the cap.

Anyways. its a moot point because the situation is what it is, and the skins are set to suffer yet again by overpaying for moss. We're going to see an exact MIRROR of what has happened this year, two years down the road with another couple promising young, home grown players, and a disgruntled FA greedy vet. You heard it here first folks. The solution to this situation would have been to sit coles and save money, this would have incurred a smaller net loss than letting him go. I can't believe Gibbs didn't think this was an acceptable option. Really foolish. I guarantee you Andy Ried would have relased him, I guarantee you Parcells, Gruden and Belicheck would have released him or sat him, you don't let a player jerk you around like that.

hey coles guess what, you signed that big contract, you're unhappy now? Big f-ing deal, you're under contract. You can sit and home and suck your thumb, until you own up to your commitment to us. Or you can give us money to let you leave. For once Snyder took the right stance on something.

That is the proper solution to this problem. I'm still so bitter about this. I really don't understand why more people haven't supported this position in the Coles Moss fiasco.

So the skins would still have Coles' salary on the books, only they would have no real replacement for him at all. Good plan. Sitting him would be the tough thing to do, but in the end, hurts the skins more. Then they have a highly paid wideout sucking cap money until his eventually cut. He's taking up 9 million this year, but will be off the books afterwards. And they got Moss out of it.

And you do not know that the skins would have resigned Smoot and/or Pierce. From Gibbs' comments, it wouldnt have mattered at all. He wasnt going to pay Smoot more than Springs and he wouldnt pay Pierce more than Washington. Your whole argument is a counter factual.

I love how people are hitting the panic button already. ITS FRICKING EARLY APRIL. Calm down.

[akhhorus]

not reporting to camp. sure, its "voluntary" but everyone else is there.

taylor has character issues and we know it from incidents last year. but he is much younger and deserves a little slack. moss is an experienced NFL veteran joining a new team. if he was a true redskin, he would WANT to meet his new quarterback ASAP and try to get some sort of report with him. he would WANT to get on the same page ASAP so his performance will be the best it can be in the regular season. ramsey made an effort to talk to him, and moss didnt have the decency to call him back.

thats a glaring character issue in my book. doesnt fit the bill of a "core redskin" in my opinion.

So obviously you would consider McCants a major character problem as well; he's done far worse than either Moss or Taylor.

[akhhorus]

I dont' think what Pierce got and what smoot received were drastic overpayments. I think our offer to smoot was different from minnesotas byt a couple 100 G's, and maybe a little larger salary.

You're right, BUT your missing the bigger issue. Both said they would resign with the skins if it was close. Both lied. Great examples of "core redskins", eh?

[swheeler]

I dont' think what Pierce got and what smoot received were drastic overpayments. I think our offer to smoot was different from minnesotas byt a couple 100 G's, and maybe a little larger salary.

It would have been more beneficial to pay for those to players because they've already proven they know the system and are committed. Instead of pouring that money into a player who doesn't know the defense, who doesn't know the city, who doesn't know the coaches. who is brand new with a fat wallet. Not keeping your own talent is a mistake. If you want proof just look at the best teams in the league, they have the highest percentage of drafted players still on their roster. What the 'Skins do each and every year is pathetic, and Gibbs needs to pick up on it and start doing it.

All I'm saying is we have to draw the line somewhere. I think Gibbs & co. know better where to do that than you or me. Way too many fans complain about overpaying and then want us to do whatever it takes to keep our talent. Keeping talent is great, but I don't want us to be like Indy, willing to pay whatever it takes for an extremely talented "homegrown" player and destroying the rest of the team in the process.

[rskinsfan10]

This is simply not true. It can't be true. 9 million of cap room would have easily translated to at least one of them signing, and its NOT overpaying because you know this player knows the system, he just proved it the previous year. Unless Gibbs and co had a preconceived notion of what pierce and smoot were worth, and didn't want to waver because they didn't think that they were worth any more than what they could fit under the cap.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is true, and has been documented several times in the press, and by others in this thread. You tell me what I said isn't true, then you proceed to basically say how it went down, which in turn is what has been told to you here. They didn't want to give Pierce more then they gave Washington, which equals preconceived notion that Pierce wasn't worth more the Washington. They didn't want to give Smoot more then they gave Springs, which equals preconceived notion that Smoot wasn't worth more then Springs. The fact that neither of these deals were pulled off the table at any time says that the Skins were able to pay them these contracts, which in turn proves that the Coles deal didn't hinder these two from signing here.

Now, unless you can show me (us) articles with quotes from Gibbs saying otherwise, then I will stand by what I have posted as I am getting my info from what Gibbs said out of his own mouth.

[akhhorus]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is true, and has been documented several times in the press, and by others in this thread. You tell me what I said isn't true, then you proceed to basically say how it went down, which in turn is what has been told to you here. They didn't want to give Pierce more then they gave Washington, which equals preconceived notion that Pierce wasn't worth more the Washington. They didn't want to give Smoot more then they gave Springs, which equals preconceived notion that Smoot wasn't worth more then Springs. The fact that neither of these deals were pulled off the table at any time says that the Skins were able to pay them these contracts, which in turn proves that the Coles deal didn't hinder these two from signing here.

Now, unless you can show me (us) articles with quotes from Gibbs saying otherwise, then I will stand by what I have posted as I am getting my info from what Gibbs said out of his own mouth.

Besides all the public and private statements Gibbs made, this is the clinching proof. After the deal when through, neither of the offers were pulled or reduced. If the Coles deal completely prevented both signings, then they would have been pulled, and Gibbs would have said that.

[rskinsfan10]

I think many people need to calm down, keep a good resting heart rate, and relax. We're almost all agreed that the team is moving in the right direction. Give it time and things will work out.

It amazes me that many Redskins fans have cried and whined over the years that Snyder isn't patient, he needs to not spend so much money, and when he finally does what they want, he gets even more criticism, this time for not overspending as swheeler mentioned earlier.

[miconnol]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is true, and has been documented several times in the press, and by others in this thread. You tell me what I said isn't true, then you proceed to basically say how it went down, which in turn is what has been told to you here. They didn't want to give Pierce more then they gave Washington, which equals preconceived notion that Pierce wasn't worth more the Washington. They didn't want to give Smoot more then they gave Springs, which equals preconceived notion that Smoot wasn't worth more then Springs. The fact that neither of these deals were pulled off the table at any time says that the Skins were able to pay them these contracts, which in turn proves that the Coles deal didn't hinder these two from signing here.

Now, unless you can show me (us) articles with quotes from Gibbs saying otherwise, then I will stand by what I have posted as I am getting my info from what Gibbs said out of his own mouth.

You're right. I understand we didn't want to pay him more than washington, and smoot more than springs. Thats fine.

But those players could have resigned with us, AND we could have upped the offer. That may not have been what happened, but it proves that Coles situation was a factor. If coles cap hit wasn't factored into the equation we might have been able to match the offer of at least one of them. I just think the Coles situation limited us in our FA movements. What if Pierce came back and said ,look I really want to be here but the giants are offering me a little bit more than what you've offered, will you up the contract a bit? Gibbs/Snyder would have had to turn around and say nope, sorry we just took a 9 mil cap hit, we'd like to accomodate you but we can't. This is all speculation, of course, but refers back to the bigger problem of absorbing all that cap hit, and thus put ourselves back into cap hell by signing moss to a lucrative contract. This situation is a mess and keeping coles and benching him a.la keyshawn johnson is the decision we should have made. I guarantee you these problems will persist for years to come. What happens when Barrow's contract escalates? What happens when we're finally forced to release Brunell because his cap hit is too big? What happens then? We loose taylor? We loose Cooley? Who knows. I'm thinking down the road here, I know Gibbs is the man for the job on the field, but I'm not convinced he's the man for the job in the front office making the tough decisions.

You're right about the smoot/springs pierce/washington situation. I see that now.

[portis&taylor]

Im concerned that ST is gonna make it hard for us to draft the best CB in antrel rolle i just hope gibbs gives them a chance and doesnt worry that this will be a normal thing if we draft antrel cuz we need that guy.

[miconnol]

So the skins would still have Coles' salary on the books, only they would have no real replacement for him at all. Good plan. Sitting him would be the tough thing to do, but in the end, hurts the skins more. Then they have a highly paid wideout sucking cap money until his eventually cut. He's taking up 9 million this year, but will be off the books afterwards. And they got Moss out of it.

And you do not know that the skins would have resigned Smoot and/or Pierce. From Gibbs' comments, it wouldnt have mattered at all. He wasnt going to pay Smoot more than Springs and he wouldnt pay Pierce more than Washington. Your whole argument is a counter factual.

I love how people are hitting the panic button already. ITS FRICKING EARLY APRIL. Calm down.


We should be hitting the panic button, at least I've been slamming on it the past couple years. Every year we do the same stuff to shoot ourselves in the foot. Brunell, trading portis for bailey AND a draft pick AND a huge contract, (i'm going to offend alot of people here) overpaying for samuels, AND arrington. When are we going to realize the error of our ways? Fiscal responsibility and good coaching are the keys to success in the salary cap era! Have we not seen the model franchise of the NFC whip our asses the last 5 years, and at least tried to take something away from that? We should fashion ourselves like the eagles, let the highpriced hot heads like trotter and douglas and freddie mitchell go, and build around core players. But we can't do that, because we overpay for overrated FA's and players and hamstring ourselves for the future. Its a vicious cycle, and I just don't see an end in sight. (Unless taylor and moss agree to modest contacts, which isn't going to happen)

[rskinsfan10]

You're right. I understand we didn't want to pay him more than washington, and smoot more than springs. Thats fine.

But those players could have resigned with us, AND we could have upped the offer. That may not have been what happened, but it proves that Coles situation was a factor. If coles cap hit wasn't factored into the equation we might have been able to match the offer of at least one of them. I just think the Coles situation limited us in our FA movements. What if Pierce came back and said ,look I really want to be here but the giants are offering me a little bit more than what you've offered, will you up the contract a bit? Gibbs/Snyder would have had to turn around and say nope, sorry we just took a 9 mil cap hit, we'd like to accomodate you but we can't. This is all speculation, of course, but refers back to the bigger problem of absorbing all that cap hit, and thus put ourselves back into cap hell by signing moss to a lucrative contract. This situation is a mess and keeping coles and benching him a.la keyshawn johnson is the decision we should have made. I guarantee you these problems will persist for years to come. What happens when Barrow's contract escalates? What happens when we're finally forced to release Brunell because his cap hit is too big? What happens then? We loose taylor? We loose Cooley? Who knows. I'm thinking down the road here, I know Gibbs is the man for the job on the field, but I'm not convinced he's the man for the job in the front office making the tough decisions.

You're right about the smoot/springs pierce/washington situation. I see that now.

The reason why I still insist that the Coles trade had no bearing goes back to the $2mil in cap space that remained afterwards. They could have used that to sweeten the bonus money, but it still would have made our contracts not as good as those that they received for one simple reason. Snyder's approach on contracts is to give miniscule base salaries over the first few years of the deals, as little as can be managed by the cap. I can say with confidence that Smoot's deal has relatively huge base salaries in the beginning years, which is a no-no in Snyder's eyes. Having the smaller base salaries gives the team better leverage and flexibility when renegotiations are needed, if my knowledge of the cap is correct. As I said before, there are others that could have been released if they wanted to do that, but they didn't because it's not Snyder's style.

[miconnol]

The reason why I still insist that the Coles trade had no bearing goes back to the $2mil in cap space that remained afterwards. They could have used that to sweeten the bonus money, but it still would have made our contracts not as good as those that they received for one simple reason. Snyder's approach on contracts is to give miniscule base salaries over the first few years of the deals, as little as can be managed by the cap. I can say with confidence that Smoot's deal has relatively huge base salaries in the beginning years, which is a no-no in Snyder's eyes. Having the smaller base salaries gives the team better leverage and flexibility when renegotiations are needed, if my knowledge of the cap is correct. As I said before, there are others that could have been released if they wanted to do that, but they didn't because it's not Snyder's style.


I think thats part of the problem, if you front-load these contracts with all this guarnateed money (in the form of a bonus), then after 3 years when the contract really gets cumbersome, and you don't want to pay the player the bigger parts of his seperated bonus, and his accelerated larger salary, why did you even go after him in the first place? This gives a player usually about 2-3 years to be worthy of his contract, and hamstrings us when we try to trade him, or release him, because his full bonus accelerates and slams us each and every year. OR if we want to keep him we have to get him to renegotiate his contract, and we all know how fun that situation becomes.

Snyder builds contracts for 3 year windows, which is terrible. Its never worked for us. Ever. With as much turmoil and turn around this team has had, its going to take much longer than 3 years to deep into the post season.

[rskinsfan10]

I think thats part of the problem, if you front-load these contracts with all this guarnateed money (in the form of a bonus), then after 3 years when the contract really gets cumbersome, and you don't want to pay the player the bigger parts of his seperated bonus, and his accelerated larger salary, why did you even go after him in the first place? This gives a player usually about 2-3 years to be worthy of his contract, and hamstrings us when we try to trade him, or release him, because his full bonus accelerates and slams us each and every year. OR if we want to keep him we have to get him to renegotiate his contract, and we all know how fun that situation becomes.

Snyder builds contracts for 3 year windows, which is terrible. Its never worked for us. Ever. With as much turmoil and turn around this team has had, its going to take much longer than 3 years to deep into the post season.

I believe you meant back load the deals, and my question is who doesn't back load their big deals these days?

The contracts with big base salaries in the early years of contracts certainly the exception, far from the norm, and not just out a Redskin Park. Most of the time, teams will front load deals when they are attempting to keep another team from matching or beating their offers. I've never heard of a team front loading a deal to keep their own FAs.

[miconnol]

I believe you meant back load the deals, and my question is who doesn't back load their big deals these days?

The contracts with big base salaries in the early years of contracts certainly the exception, far from the norm, and not just out a Redskin Park. Most of the time, teams will front load deals when they are attempting to keep another team from matching or beating their offers. I've never heard of a team front loading a deal to keep their own FAs.


I mean front loading with the bonus. Didn't mean the salary. We usually sign them with a HUGE bonus, sometimes chopped in two, and split up in the first 2 years or so. Players like those contracts because that bonus is guaranteed money, and all they have to do is play two seasons with the team and net that big pay day. The salary isn't what players care about. Anyways, it really limits us after year 2. We either release the player/trade the player (and take a massive cap hit), or restructure (which is sometimes next to impossible). With the restructuring we take the old contract that hs 4 years, or whatever, left on it, take some of that "unguaranteed" money and give it to the player in the form of a bonus, and create a new contract that is of a similar length, and announce it to the public, and the bonus is really all the player is looking for. We do it every 3 years. Its a bad system, because it doesn't foster continuity. And yes you're right that its not just the skins, that implement this system. But the best teams in the league typically, DON'T overspend, they take their lumps and dump those players before they corrupt the financial system the team has in place. The redskins refuse to do that.

Anyways, I have to boogie, this is a great forum, everyone I work with is a Eagles fan and never wants to talk Skins. Or they just bash the team for being so terrible.

[COUNCILMAN]

they seem to be holding out.. Jacobs shares the same agent as Moss and he hinted that it's about the organization and the agent and the article said Moss wants big time signing bonus money which is stalling the negotiations. this is not good when we just had Cryveranues get his way with us.. i hope Gibbs and Snyder firm up and not let players dictate the way this team handles business. the U boys might be talented but they're not bigger than the team.. they both have a contract.. man up.


I agree with you 100%. The Redskins need to take the attitude of Philadelphia and New England. Those teams have let guys go rather than submit to their demands. Loll at Jerimiah Trotter the first time around with Philly. Look at Ty Law and Lawyer Malloy with New England.

The franchise and the long term plan should take precedence...not the individual crybaby.

[bgforever]

I am inclined to treat this as an example of short-sightedness on ther part of Moss and ST. That Moss hasn't made establishing timing with his new QB his #1 job of the off-season tells me he doesn't have his priorities straight and that he isn't much of a competitor. 1500 yard seasons are made in the Summer. If Moss doesn't want to be great, stay in Miami. Maybe we'll draft Brock Berlin and he'll have his timing down with Brock. Sure.

As for ST, he isn't so free of mental mistakes that he needs to be missing sessions with his new mates. He'll be working with a new corner and a new MLB in front of him. Williams will be wanting to install new plays to build on what he got in last year. St is missing that crucial element no matter what he is doing in Miami.

Gibbs cannot legally nor should he punish players for missing voluntary workouts. That's what bit Coughlin. But Gibbs and the the rest of the guys on the team sweating together to get better can be angry and disappointed at the lack of commitment.

"All the 'u' players do it," is a crap excuse. Barrow and Portis are Miami grads and they are in Redskins Park. Ray Lewis is in Baltimore lifting according to the Ravens' web site. The last time I checked, Portis, Barrow (the last time he did play), and Ray were better at their positions than ST and Moss are at theirs. Coincidence? Champions are made in the of-season. Work in = Production out.

"They can't commit without the money," is also a crap excuse. Both players are under contract. In St's case, a very lucrative one. If I told my boss I wanted a raise but wasn't going to put the effort in to improve my performance, why in the world would he willingly accomodate me? To steal a phrase from the idiot Raiders, try showing a commitment to excellence. No one minds rewarding a champion.


Though I agree with you on the hype of the TYPE of excuse for "U" players, it happens at other teams as well for other schools, so don't forget to include them too. Also, I mentioned that Ray Lewis WILL probably be down there too (doesn't mean "right now"). Not taking it personal, but the timing of your response to whomever, left that door open for my response to you.

[hockeygoalie29]

They didn't want to give Pierce more then they gave Washington, which equals preconceived notion that Pierce wasn't worth more the Washington. They didn't want to give Smoot more then they gave Springs, which equals preconceived notion that Smoot wasn't worth more then Springs.

I don't know why but that is one of the funniest things I've heard all day! I know, I don't get out much...

[RedskinsVision]

just saw on CSN where they were interviewing players about this and Marcus Washington made a good analogy when asked how voluntary these workouts were.. he said, "it's like when it's your gf's or wife's bday, you don't have to bring a present but if you don't you're going to be in big trouble." it's pretty clear the players are not happy with Moss or Taylor.

[skins74]

I am sick of these bitches, they need to get their a$$es in there and start building cohesion. All these MFers care about is $$$. They have a FN contract and they should honor it. But these guys have no honor. Today's players win or lose are losers. They make me sick. When I sign a contract I honor it even if I lose money on the job, I stick it out because thats what you should do.

[BIGSEF3]

i say if moss doesnt shape up, we dont give him an extension and pay him the 455K hes set to make. sure, it makes the whole coles fiasco that much worse, but atleast we would be sending the right message to the rest of the team.

the same holds true for taylor, but its much more painful with him b/c hes so dang talented.

[techskinsfan]

just saw on CSN where they were interviewing players about this and Marcus Washington made a good analogy when asked how voluntary these workouts were.. he said, "it's like when it's your gf's or wife's bday, you don't have to bring a present but if you don't you're going to be in big trouble." it's pretty clear the players are not happy with Moss or Taylor.
good for M Wash...im startin to reallllly like this guy

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

I am sick of these bitches, they need to get their a$$es in there and start building cohesion. All these MFers care about is $$$. They have a FN contract and they should honor it. But these guys have no honor. Today's players win or lose are losers. They make me sick. When I sign a contract I honor it even if I lose money on the job, I stick it out because thats what you should do.
skins74....i think you need a hug....

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/love/2/love13.gif

lol....

[COUNCILMAN]

i say if moss doesnt shape up, we dont give him an extension and pay him the 455K hes set to make. sure, it makes the whole coles fiasco that much worse, but atleast we would be sending the right message to the rest of the team.

the same holds true for taylor, but its much more painful with him b/c hes so dang talented.


And that is EXACTLY what Gibbs may do. Moss has to play for 455k and because he is in a contract year he is forced to try to have a career year. If he doesn't then he isn't worth a long term deal...and if he has a great year the Skins can just franchise him. Its no big deal really. If he doesn't want to be a CORE player then why pay him like one. Just stick the Fricking franchise tag on him and let him work for peanuts. He is the one choosing to be a jerk.

SO TREAT HIM LIKE ONE.

[whitskins]

And that is EXACTLY what Gibbs may do. Moss has to play for 455k and because he is in a contract year he is forced to try to have a career year. If he doesn't then he isn't worth a long term deal...and if he has a great year the Skins can just franchise him. Its no big deal really. If he doesn't want to be a CORE player then why pay him like one. Just stick the Fricking franchise tag on him and let him work for peanuts. He is the one choosing to be a jerk.

SO TREAT HIM LIKE ONE.

The franchise tag will be at least 8 million for one year. Don't see that as an option at all.

I think an extension will be worked out once we free up some salary space by booting Gardner and others.

[akhhorus]

You're right. I understand we didn't want to pay him more than washington, and smoot more than springs. Thats fine.

But those players could have resigned with us, AND we could have upped the offer. That may not have been what happened, but it proves that Coles situation was a factor. If coles cap hit wasn't factored into the equation we might have been able to match the offer of at least one of them. I just think the Coles situation limited us in our FA movements. What if Pierce came back and said ,look I really want to be here but the giants are offering me a little bit more than what you've offered, will you up the contract a bit? Gibbs/Snyder would have had to turn around and say nope, sorry we just took a 9 mil cap hit, we'd like to accomodate you but we can't. This is all speculation, of course, but refers back to the bigger problem of absorbing all that cap hit, and thus put ourselves back into cap hell by signing moss to a lucrative contract. This situation is a mess and keeping coles and benching him a.la keyshawn johnson is the decision we should have made. I guarantee you these problems will persist for years to come. What happens when Barrow's contract escalates? What happens when we're finally forced to release Brunell because his cap hit is too big? What happens then? We loose taylor? We loose Cooley? Who knows. I'm thinking down the road here, I know Gibbs is the man for the job on the field, but I'm not convinced he's the man for the job in the front office making the tough decisions.

You're right about the smoot/springs pierce/washington situation. I see that now.

1-Could of, would of, should of. You cant have it both way: either the skins pay top money for everyone and you're not allowed to whine about the spending or exercise fiscal discpline and let players walk(no matter who they are) if they're gunning for more money
2-Again, your argument is flawed because the skins didn't retract their offers to both Smoot and Pierce after the Coles deal. Also, the players said publically and told the skins that they would stay if it was close. Well, it was close and they still left. Why do you want players like that on your team?
3-So if Pierce or Smoot came to the skins asking them to up their offer so he would stay-even if its a little bit--why should they? Again, they said that they would stay if it was close. You're completely assuming that Gibbs was lying when he said that he didnt want to pay Smoot more than Springs and Pierce more than Washington.
4-yeah, Coles' cap hit was such a problem that the Skins were able to give Samuels a massive deal, resign Salaeva, and sign Patten and Rabach to decent sized deals.
5-The skins arent in cap hell: cap hell is when you have to cut players to get to the cap. When have they done that recently?
6-Again, your perfect solution would be to have Coles still eat up 3.5 million this year(and more later on) and sit on the bench? Nice plan.
7-Barrow is making next to nothing, and if did get high, he would be gone.
8-"What if we lose Taylor, what if we lose Cooley": Jeebus, stop worrying. If they go, they go; I doubt Taylor will leave but Cooley is very replacable. But im sure you will blame Coles' situation for doing that.

So fine: what would have been your ideal situation? You offer a lot of nitpicking about the moves, but you seem to want things both ways.

I mean front loading with the bonus. Didn't mean the salary. We usually sign them with a HUGE bonus, sometimes chopped in two, and split up in the first 2 years or so. Players like those contracts because that bonus is guaranteed money, and all they have to do is play two seasons with the team and net that big pay day. The salary isn't what players care about. Anyways, it really limits us after year 2. We either release the player/trade the player (and take a massive cap hit), or restructure (which is sometimes next to impossible). With the restructuring we take the old contract that hs 4 years, or whatever, left on it, take some of that "unguaranteed" money and give it to the player in the form of a bonus, and create a new contract that is of a similar length, and announce it to the public, and the bonus is really all the player is looking for. We do it every 3 years. Its a bad system, because it doesn't foster continuity. And yes you're right that its not just the skins, that implement this system. But the best teams in the league typically, DON'T overspend, they take their lumps and dump those players before they corrupt the financial system the team has in place. The redskins refuse to do that.

Anyways, I have to boogie, this is a great forum, everyone I work with is a Eagles fan and never wants to talk Skins. Or they just bash the team for being so terrible.

Im sorry ,but you're mistaken. The bonus is split among the entire deal, so your scenario is wrong. The bonus isnt charged in two payments, but is pro-rated over the length of the entire deal. Now, the contract might have the bonus going to to players in two payments, but the NFL doesnt count that against the cap to prevent any teams from circumventing the guaranteed money. So it doesnt matter capwise, how the bonus is distributed.

[bgforever]

I am sick of these bitches, they need to get their a$$es in there and start building cohesion. All these MFers care about is $$$. They have a FN contract and they should honor it. But these guys have no honor. Today's players win or lose are losers. They make me sick. When I sign a contract I honor it even if I lose money on the job, I stick it out because thats what you should do.


Can't tell you how much emotion I have bottled up, but I have to keep it that way. I left EXTREMESKINS the wrong way because of it, even though I wasn 't banned, I just felt I burned a bridge with someone and I felt empty.
I love JG and the Skins, but I pray I never get that empty feeling. Players nowadays edge me ever closer.

compensation or none, something sick is going on with the insatiable appetite for money. I am curious, just how much is the owner allowed to keep for himself. In major corporations, the CEO's take the fat checks, though all some are, are lip service.

Sorry,but until Moss plays a single down, he's not a Redskin to me and ST has proven himself, however, he's as stubborn at times, because he will take longer to break in into the game of life. He may very well fall flat on his face first, BIGGER than before, to wake up, but that's on him. Moss should know better by now and I don't accept his excuse, unless he's had family issues and cleared with the FO. Otherwise, I can just as well be glad to see him traded before Training camp.

[War Hogg]

You're right. I understand we didn't want to pay him more than washington, and smoot more than springs. Thats fine.

But those players could have resigned with us, AND we could have upped the offer. That may not have been what happened, but it proves that Coles situation was a factor. If coles cap hit wasn't factored into the equation we might have been able to match the offer of at least one of them. I just think the Coles situation limited us in our FA movements. What if Pierce came back and said ,look I really want to be here but the giants are offering me a little bit more than what you've offered, will you up the contract a bit? Gibbs/Snyder would have had to turn around and say nope, sorry we just took a 9 mil cap hit, we'd like to accomodate you but we can't. This is all speculation, of course, but refers back to the bigger problem of absorbing all that cap hit, and thus put ourselves back into cap hell by signing moss to a lucrative contract. This situation is a mess and keeping coles and benching him a.la keyshawn johnson is the decision we should have made. I guarantee you these problems will persist for years to come. What happens when Barrow's contract escalates? What happens when we're finally forced to release Brunell because his cap hit is too big? What happens then? We loose taylor? We loose Cooley? Who knows. I'm thinking down the road here, I know Gibbs is the man for the job on the field, but I'm not convinced he's the man for the job in the front office making the tough decisions.

You're right about the smoot/springs pierce/washington situation. I see that now.

Finally I can agree with someone here....The FO is on crack...

[bgforever]

Finally I can agree with someone here....The FO is on crack...


I see it too now. JG means well and one point I thought he could do it as is, but it is very clear, all these """"""" players coming in with the B&G held high (taking our history for granted), only want money when they get a whif of what we have.

I am happy with 53 James Thrash's than I am with 10 big names. I want football players that not only want to play but have a sense of "how" business is conducted, how money requests affect other money requests, and I want a coach/President to realize when he's been licked in a given department. He (JG, along with Snyder and Cerrato) IMO have struck yet another spot that is 50-50 - MOSS. I know its voluntary, but first it was the point of his contract not being announced until league wide proper time.

Point, is MOSS' agent the culprit behind the propaganda so early, so to lobby for more money, then this is the corrupt side of football that is slowly but surely turning me off from supporting the team whole heartedly, because I am not used to hating the players while they wear the B & G and it has happened so often, that unlike others who get used to it, I walk away knowing I cannot pull for a team, while at the same time watch a viper suck the life out of the team and run (Coles, Deion, George).

I can't control the team, as I am just a bystander, but I can control my wallet, time and space. That's my decision and I can live with it, because the organization, not just the history and memories, would be a shell of itself, Something I have never been a fan of. Somebody somewhere, with some street hook up needs to school Joe on the finer points of when brothers are bullsh***** and when the aren't.

I listened to those press conferences and sorry, brothers from another, the less articulate, the most likely to fu! You're train of thought is usually associated with the way you connect socially and when ANALYZING a given situation, most of the time, the less sounding educated, means you really didn't pass with a C somewhere, and you'll try to cheat your way again.

I am tired of cheaters, liars, on and on, where the hell are the football players with common sense for business and greater appreciation of the history of the game, respect for structure!

gettin' off the soapbox and doing you guys a favor that want to throw bricks at me for dusting off a Cane', go ahead!

[miconnol]

I see it too now. JG means well and one point I thought he could do it as is, but it is very clear, all these """"""" players coming in with the B&G held high (taking our history for granted), only want money when they get a whif of what we have.

I am happy with 53 James Thrash's than I am with 10 big names. I want football players that not only want to play but have a sense of "how" business is conducted, how money requests affect other money requests, and I want a coach/President to realize when he's been licked in a given department. He (JG, along with Snyder and Cerrato) IMO have struck yet another spot that is 50-50 - MOSS. I know its voluntary, but first it was the point of his contract not being announced until league wide proper time.

Point, is MOSS' agent the culprit behind the propaganda so early, so to lobby for more money, then this is the corrupt side of football that is slowly but surely turning me off from supporting the team whole heartedly, because I am not used to hating the players while they wear the B & G and it has happened so often, that unlike others who get used to it, I walk away knowing I cannot pull for a team, while at the same time watch a viper suck the life out of the team and run (Coles, Deion, George).

I can't control the team, as I am just a bystander, but I can control my wallet, time and space. That's my decision and I can live with it, because the organization, not just the history and memories, would be a shell of itself, Something I have never been a fan of. Somebody somewhere, with some street hook up needs to school Joe on the finer points of when brothers are bullsh***** and when the aren't.

I listened to those press conferences and sorry, brothers from another, the less articulate, the most likely to fu! You're train of thought is usually associated with the way you connect socially and when ANALYZING a given situation, most of the time, the less sounding educated, means you really didn't pass with a C somewhere, and you'll try to cheat your way again.

I am tired of cheaters, liars, on and on, where the hell are the football players with common sense for business and greater appreciation of the history of the game, respect for structure!

gettin' off the soapbox and doing you guys a favor that want to throw bricks at me for dusting off a Cane', go ahead!


While I agree with most of that rant, hhaha. We can't forget that this is no longer a sport, its a business, and these guys have jobs, families and are out to make a buck. There are the occasional marco rivera's out there (dallas OG who was hurt after sigining a monster bonus, and offered to return his bonus because he wasn't able to perform with the team until the regular season), but for every rivera out there we have 12 deions, 15 cole's and 100 moss'. Its a shame that the skins ahve been a revoloving ATM for player the last couple years but hopefully Gibbs will figure it out.

[miconnol]

1-Could of, would of, should of. You cant have it both way: either the skins pay top money for everyone and you're not allowed to whine about the spending or exercise fiscal discpline and let players walk(no matter who they are) if they're gunning for more money
2-Again, your argument is flawed because the skins didn't retract their offers to both Smoot and Pierce after the Coles deal. Also, the players said publically and told the skins that they would stay if it was close. Well, it was close and they still left. Why do you want players like that on your team?
3-So if Pierce or Smoot came to the skins asking them to up their offer so he would stay-even if its a little bit--why should they? Again, they said that they would stay if it was close. You're completely assuming that Gibbs was lying when he said that he didnt want to pay Smoot more than Springs and Pierce more than Washington.
4-yeah, Coles' cap hit was such a problem that the Skins were able to give Samuels a massive deal, resign Salaeva, and sign Patten and Rabach to decent sized deals.
5-The skins arent in cap hell: cap hell is when you have to cut players to get to the cap. When have they done that recently?
6-Again, your perfect solution would be to have Coles still eat up 3.5 million this year(and more later on) and sit on the bench? Nice plan.
7-Barrow is making next to nothing, and if did get high, he would be gone.
8-"What if we lose Taylor, what if we lose Cooley": Jeebus, stop worrying. If they go, they go; I doubt Taylor will leave but Cooley is very replacable. But im sure you will blame Coles' situation for doing that.

So fine: what would have been your ideal situation? You offer a lot of nitpicking about the moves, but you seem to want things both ways.



Im sorry ,but you're mistaken. The bonus is split among the entire deal, so your scenario is wrong. The bonus isnt charged in two payments, but is pro-rated over the length of the entire deal. Now, the contract might have the bonus going to to players in two payments, but the NFL doesnt count that against the cap to prevent any teams from circumventing the guaranteed money. So it doesnt matter capwise, how the bonus is distributed.

Yeesh, I must have touched a nerve here. So let me get this straight, you seem to think that having players leave every 2-3 years is okay.

RE: 1. You say that I can't have it both ways? That I can't have cap problems AND retain good players at the same time? Look at what Philly does? They draft high-character guys, and they let the riff raff leave out of FA, and replace that FA with a home-grown player. They save money by letting the money grubbers go, and test out a new player and reward him with a modest contract if he plays well. I want it that way, I want both ways, and I'm telling you its possible. THAT is the way to manage these players.

(Side note : By letting Coles muscle us around and tell US what to do, you in essence handicap yourself later. Just because we didn't "pull our offers off the table to smoot, or pierce" doesn't mean the Coles situation didn't affect their contracts. Coles has been grumbling since the middle of last season, AND the front office knew about it, apparently he and Gibbs met a couple times and Coles discussed his dissapointment. This tells me that Gibbs probably knew he was going to have to get rid of him, and factored the ramification of the cap hit into those contracts proposed to AP and Smoot. I refuse to believe that the Coles situation didn't affect the contracts offered to AP and Smoot, and everyone here is naive to think otherwise. 9 mil cap hit? vs 11 mil of cap room?)

RE: 2. Does the public really know what we offered AP and Smoot? We say it was close? How close, we don't know. Was it even worthy of their contributions this year and previous years? Maybe, maybe not? Were we not factoring in potential cap problems with other individuals, and short changing our FA's? Did we tell them, hey AP, Smoot, sorry fellas, this is all the cash we have left, we'd like to pay you more but we just can't. Not paying smoot as much as springs, and pierce as much as washington could have been a cop out and a mask saying we don't have the cash to pay you that much. Again more speculation, as everyone here seems to believe everything that comes from the media, and Gibbs' mouth. Gibbs is notorious for smoke screens and being vague with the public.

RE: 3. Yes, they should have upped the contract offer to keep their talented players within their system. Gibbs saying what he did about not paying smoot and pierce more than their teamates at their respective positions belies a much deeper issue. I.e. we don't have the money. Gibbs is learning how to run a franchise, something he never did before. This was a convenient/nice way of saying, we dont have the money to pay these guys. He thinks the world of Smoot and Pierce. Again more smoke screens. Its amazing how everyone just takes what Gibbs says and takes it right to heart and believes every word of it. Are we robots?

RE: 4. We were able to sign Rabach, Salavea and Overpay for Samuels because all of these rediculous contracts are about the bonus, (who's real value is in the first 2-3 years of the contract) The salary kicks in the latter years of the contract and the bonus tapers out. The point here is the players care about up front guaranteed money and you're only gauranteed the money that is placed in your hand immediately, and that is the signing bonus. Minus Samuels these players received modest contracts and modest signing bonuses, AND yet AGAIN will not be around in 2-3 years. Patten is an older fella and Rabach's contract might need to be reworked in 2-3 years if he excells in our system, or he'll become a cap casualty. We persist these problems rather than solved them, and delay the inevitable. Samuels is overpaid and will continue to cause us cap problems for years to come. He and arrington are really holding this team back financially.

RE: 5. False. The skins ARE in cap hell. Cap hell is where the Cap is causing you problems by not allowing you to retain your core players. I refuse to believe that Gibbs didn't want to spend all he could to retain his "Core" players, the fact that he wasn't able to because of past contract problems is the real reason. Not because he "didn't want to pay him more than springs, or pierce more than washington." blah blah. I understand why he said that and thats fine. Its a convenient excuse.

RE: 6. I doubt barrow is making next to nothing. I'd love to see his cap number this year, his salary, and his cap and salary for next coming year. You tell me why we paid him all that money to ride the pine, and only to see Pierce grow as a player then depart because we didn't think we had anyone on our team worthy of our trust. BS people, this is BS. Barrow and Brunell are great examples of Gibbs' inability to successfully build franchises. He didn't think we had QB, he didn't think we had a MLB. So he got snyder to go out and by them. What are they doing now? Absolutely nothing, just taking up cap room. Gibbs will learn eventually, but it has to start now.

RE: 7. Yep. You sit the whining crying babies or your honor your verbale commitment to him and release him when he pays back whatever amount of the bonus he said he'd pay back. This sends a very Reid-like, a very Belichek-like message : Hey we don't want cry babies here. We're the boss here. That message wasn't sent across and I'll admit Gibbs was trying to make the best out of a bad situation, but in the end he made the wrong decision.

RE: 8. What if we loose Taylor and Cooley? Why worry? Because I like those players, we drafted them we cultivated them, and I don't want to see them go to Dallas, or Philly, or the Giants. I'm tried of all our homegrown talent going elsewhere and succeeding. (Stephen Davis, Smoot, Pierce and countless others)

My ideal situation? Gibbs puts his foot down. Takes the money Coles said he would give him, and release him. OR sit coles, and treat him like a child. The latter is good because :

A. The player will not sit the entire year because that is professional suicide, he'll have to give in at some point and either be a team player or work something out, or be comfortable at home like Keyshawn was last year. I think its obvious Coles wouldn't have liked sitting at home because he's a work out nut. We don't have to pay him his bonus if he's sitting at home because he's been deactivated. (Something like that is possible I believe, but Cerrato and I aren't good friends so I'm not sure about small details like that)

B. It sends the right message to the players that we're the boss here, you came to work for the Redskins and this is how its going to be. Its our way or the highway.

To sum up : Basically the problem with trading coles, is of course the cap hit, but more problematic is the fact that we now have to sign a new un-proven, often injury prone WR to a monster contract, and he excited to be a Redskins because now-adays being a redskins = $$$$$. He's coming to the Redskins to get paid. Every free agent knows that.

Solution: If we'd simply release coles, we could have drafted a WR, we could have promoted Jacobs, or possibly given McCants a chance. Why does everyone think this situation was ideal? Either way because of the contract we gave coles and every free agent for that matter, we have cap problems. We obviously don't trust our homegrown talent, and let it depart year after year. Everyone is naive to think Gibbs is making wise decisions as our GM. He knows Xs and Os football, NASCAR, and he says knows people, but how well he knows today's player is anyone's guess.

Your thoughts?

[akhhorus]

So let me get this straight, you seem to think that having players leave every 2-3 years is okay.

Good, bad: its gonna happen no matter what; better they let them go and not overpay

RE: 1. You say that I can't have it both ways? That I can't have cap problems AND retain good players at the same time? Look at what Philly does? They draft high-character guys, and they let the riff raff leave out of FA, and replace that FA with a home-grown player. They save money by letting the money grubbers go, and test out a new player and reward him with a modest contract if he plays well. I want it that way, I want both ways, and I'm telling you its possible. THAT is the way to manage these players.

So how is the Smoot and Pierce situation congruent to this? Smoot left for a heavily front loaded deal, and Pierce just lied and left for a little bit more money. Keep in mind: Pierce was just a Special teamer until his contract year and until GW. He's replacable. Paying them what they wanted(and I even thought the offers they made to them were too high) would make the skins' cap situation problematic in the future, even after Coles' deal was off the books.

(Side note : By letting Coles muscle us around and tell US what to do, you in essence handicap yourself later. Just because we didn't "pull our offers off the table to smoot, or pierce" doesn't mean the Coles situation didn't affect their contracts. Coles has been grumbling since the middle of last season, AND the front office knew about it, apparently he and Gibbs met a couple times and Coles discussed his dissapointment. This tells me that Gibbs probably knew he was going to have to get rid of him, and factored the ramification of the cap hit into those contracts proposed to AP and Smoot. I refuse to believe that the Coles situation didn't affect the contracts offered to AP and Smoot, and everyone here is naive to think otherwise. 9 mil cap hit? vs 11 mil of cap room?)

More counter factuals. When you want talk "facts", Ill be more than happen to discuss this. And Coles didnt muscle the Skins, he wanted to be a FA. Which didnt happen, now did it? You can refuse to believe it all you want, but the fact is that the skins were offering a contract worth X to both Smoot and Pierce and after the Coles deal, they were still offered X. That completely undermines your argument. But if you want to keep beleives that it matters, go right ahead.

RE: 2. Does the public really know what we offered AP and Smoot? We say it was close? How close, we don't know. Was it even worthy of their contributions this year and previous years? Maybe, maybe not? Were we not factoring in potential cap problems with other individuals, and short changing our FA's? Did we tell them, hey AP, Smoot, sorry fellas, this is all the cash we have left, we'd like to pay you more but we just can't. Not paying smoot as much as springs, and pierce as much as washington could have been a cop out and a mask saying we don't have the cash to pay you that much. Again more speculation, as everyone here seems to believe everything that comes from the media, and Gibbs' mouth. Gibbs is notorious for smoke screens and being vague with the public.

More counter factuals. The skins offered Smoot(and this came from public and private sources about 800,000 less overall than what the Viking ultimately gave him. Pierce's offer from the skins wasn't much less from what the Giants gave him(the skins offer a 4-6 million bonus, 23-25 million total over 6 years--he got 6 years-26 million with a 7.5 million bonus from the Giants). Both offers were in the WashPost and other sources LONG before they signed with their new teams.

[akhhorus]

RE: 3. Yes, they should have upped the contract offer to keep their talented players within their system. Gibbs saying what he did about not paying smoot and pierce more than their teamates at their respective positions belies a much deeper issue. I.e. we don't have the money. Gibbs is learning how to run a franchise, something he never did before. This was a convenient/nice way of saying, we dont have the money to pay these guys. He thinks the world of Smoot and Pierce. Again more smoke screens. Its amazing how everyone just takes what Gibbs says and takes it right to heart and believes every word of it. Are we robots?

Again, you want it both ways. You want the skins to pay Smoot and Pierce what they want, but you want the Skins to exercise fiscal discpline like what Philly and New England do.

RE: 4. We were able to sign Rabach, Salavea and Overpay for Samuels because all of these rediculous contracts are about the bonus, (who's real value is in the first 2-3 years of the contract) The salary kicks in the latter years of the contract and the bonus tapers out. The point here is the players care about up front guaranteed money and you're only gauranteed the money that is placed in your hand immediately, and that is the signing bonus. Minus Samuels these players received modest contracts and modest signing bonuses, AND yet AGAIN will not be around in 2-3 years. Patten is an older fella and Rabach's contract might need to be reworked in 2-3 years if he excells in our system, or he'll become a cap casualty. We persist these problems rather than solved them, and delay the inevitable. Samuels is overpaid and will continue to cause us cap problems for years to come. He and arrington are really holding this team back financially.

Im sorry; youre still wrong. The bonus might be payed out in the first two years, or in two payments. It all depends on the terms of the deal. BUT: The nfl doesnt recognize this structure and charges the pro-rated bonus amount each year agianst the team's cap. So a 15.75 million bonus over 6 years, might be paid in installments of 8.9 million--but the NFL charges about 2.5 million a year, and if you cut him, the cap is charged the remainder of the bonus minus the pro-rated years.

RE: 5. False. The skins ARE in cap hell. Cap hell is where the Cap is causing you problems by not allowing you to retain your core players. I refuse to believe that Gibbs didn't want to spend all he could to retain his "Core" players, the fact that he wasn't able to because of past contract problems is the real reason. Not because he "didn't want to pay him more than springs, or pierce more than washington." blah blah. I understand why he said that and thats fine. Its a convenient excuse.

Neither Smoot or Pierce were core players. And they arent in cap hell. By your definition, every team that lost a player they wanted to keep, but refused to pay them what they wanted would be in cap hell. The titans had to dump several good players to get to the cap, Tampa did as well; thats cap hell. You're just whining.

RE: 6. I doubt barrow is making next to nothing. I'd love to see his cap number this year, his salary, and his cap and salary for next coming year. You tell me why we paid him all that money to ride the pine, and only to see Pierce grow as a player then depart because we didn't think we had anyone on our team worthy of our trust. BS people, this is BS. Barrow and Brunell are great examples of Gibbs' inability to successfully build franchises. He didn't think we had QB, he didn't think we had a MLB. So he got snyder to go out and by them. What are they doing now? Absolutely nothing, just taking up cap room. Gibbs will learn eventually, but it has to start now.[/QUOTE

Brunell and Barrow were busts(which isnt fair, Barrow never played so we dont know how good he is)Yeah, but Taylor, Washington, Portis, Springs, Cooley were pretty good indications that Gibbs still knows talent. And I suspect that they thought Pierce would resign, consider all his public statement where he said: "I just want to see the offers, but im coming back here" and ended up signing for not much more. Why do you want players like that on the team? Barrow is making 2 million this year, but his bonus was small enough to cut him after June 1st if you want to and save about 1 million.

And I was advocating trading Samuels early, but only if they could replace him. Keep in mind, unless they gave him a new deal, there was no way he stayed. And there was NO-ONE on the FA market who could replace him. Unless you wanted to go into the season with a rookie LT, instead of addressing an actual need. The bonus is high, but he is a very good LT. Its very hard to find consistancy at the LT, and if you dont have that,, the entire offense will be dragged down by it.

[QUOTE=miconnol]RE: 7. Yep. You sit the whining crying babies or your honor your verbale commitment to him and release him when he pays back whatever amount of the bonus he said he'd pay back. This sends a very Reid-like, a very Belichek-like message : Hey we don't want cry babies here. We're the boss here. That message wasn't sent across and I'll admit Gibbs was trying to make the best out of a bad situation, but in the end he made the wrong decision.

but doesnt dumping that player show a strong Reid/Belecheck type message? Reid and Belecheck dont put up with aholes like Coles, they get rid of them. So did Gibbs.

RE: 8. What if we loose Taylor and Cooley? Why worry? Because I like those players, we drafted them we cultivated them, and I don't want to see them go to Dallas, or Philly, or the Giants. I'm tried of all our homegrown talent going elsewhere and succeeding. (Stephen Davis, Smoot, Pierce and countless others)

Davis has succeeded? He had one good year at Carolina and has been injured every since. Name another(besides Brad Johnson) who left and did extremely well. And you have no clue how Smoot and Pierce will do gone from the Redskins, you're already assuming that they will be good. Yet another counter factual. Smoot will probably be better, but what about Pierce? He was a special teamer who only did well in a great system. Now he's out of that system.

My ideal situation? Gibbs puts his foot down. Takes the money Coles said he would give him, and release him. OR sit coles, and treat him like a child. The latter is good because :

A. The player will not sit the entire year because that is professional suicide, he'll have to give in at some point and either be a team player or work something out, or be comfortable at home like Keyshawn was last year. I think its obvious Coles wouldn't have liked sitting at home because he's a work out nut. We don't have to pay him his bonus if he's sitting at home because he's been deactivated. (Something like that is possible I believe, but Cerrato and I aren't good friends so I'm not sure about small details like that)

B. It sends the right message to the players that we're the boss here, you came to work for the Redskins and this is how its going to be. Its our way or the highway.

First off, there were no guarantees that the NFL would have approved of that money give back by Coles. If the NFl rejects it, then where are you in your scenario.
A-The player isnt sitting, he's been benched. So he cant come back until the coach decides to bring him back.
B-Doesnt dumping him show that the FO wont tolerate people like him? Doesnt it show that its Gibbs' way or the highway?

To sum up : Basically the problem with trading coles, is of course the cap hit, but more problematic is the fact that we now have to sign a new un-proven, often injury prone WR to a monster contract, and he excited to be a Redskins because now-adays being a redskins = $$$$$. He's coming to the Redskins to get paid. Every free agent knows that.

I love how you think that having hamstring problems is worse than having a broken toe that the player refuses to have sugery on. Every FA comes to the Skins to get paid big bucks? Wow, ask Rabach and Patten about that.And the skins clear off Coles' ridiculous contract after this year. Moss might get a big deal, but it probably be less overall than Coles'

Solution: If we'd simply release coles, we could have drafted a WR, we could have promoted Jacobs, or possibly given McCants a chance. Why does everyone think this situation was ideal? Either way because of the contract we gave coles and every free agent for that matter, we have cap problems. We obviously don't trust our homegrown talent, and let it depart year after year.

Good plan. So dump Coles and save the money(which there was no guarantees that the NFL would have allowed that) and go into the season with a rookie or Taylor Jacobs or Darnarian "Im really Jerry Rice, but the skins wont play me to prove it" McCants to take over his role? That would condeming the skins offense to be worse than last year. And every team loses homegrown talent, thats FA for you. The skins dont have that many more FAs than most teams in the NFL.

When you actually want to debate facts, and stop bringing up counter factuals and supposition, I will be more than happy to debate you.

[hockeygoalie29]

RE: 1. You say that I can't have it both ways? That I can't have cap problems AND retain good players at the same time?


Actually, what he is saying is that you can't complain when we overpay players and create this so called "cap hell" that you think we are in and then complain when we show some restraint and DO NOT overpay a player. You can't have it both ways.


Just because we didn't "pull our offers off the table to smoot, or pierce" doesn't mean the Coles situation didn't affect their contracts.

The fact remains that if we had WANTED to pay them more, we could have. We had, and still have, the cap room to sweeten either or both of the deals. We CHOSE not too. Why? The front office decided how much they thought each player was worth and stuck to their guns. In my opinion, each would have been overpaid anyway because both of them can be easily replaced by cheaper, better players. They are not superstars by any means and both have several flaws in thier games.



RE: 3. Yes, they should have upped the contract offer to keep their talented players within their system. Gibbs saying what he did about not paying smoot and pierce more than their teamates at their respective positions belies a much deeper issue. I.e. we don't have the money. Gibbs is learning how to run a franchise, something he never did before. This was a convenient/nice way of saying, we dont have the money to pay these guys. He thinks the world of Smoot and Pierce.

Again, we could have upped either offer but chose not to, that shows me how much he thinks the world of them.

RE: 4. We were able to sign Rabach, Salavea and Overpay for Samuels because all of these rediculous contracts are about the bonus, (who's real value is in the first 2-3 years of the contract) The salary kicks in the latter years of the contract and the bonus tapers out.

The bonus does not taper out, it is spread evenly through the first 5 years of the deal this year and the first 6 for deals made last year.

The point here is the players care about up front guaranteed money and you're only gauranteed the money that is placed in your hand immediately, and that is the signing bonus.

Which makes sense because they are not guaranteed to be on the field to collect their checks the next year. Injuries occur all the time and end many careers so the players are protecting themselves here.

RE: 5. False. The skins ARE in cap hell.

You want to see cap hell? Become a Titans fan. That's cap hell.


RE: 6. I doubt barrow is making next to nothing. I'd love to see his cap number this year, his salary, and his cap and salary for next coming year. You tell me why we paid him all that money to ride the pine, and only to see Pierce grow as a player then depart because we didn't think we had anyone on our team worthy of our trust. BS people, this is BS. Barrow and Brunell are great examples of Gibbs' inability to successfully build franchises. He didn't think we had QB, he didn't think we had a MLB.

The Brunell issue I won't debate but Barrow is an entirely different scenerio. He did not "ride the pine", he was HURT. Don't kid yourself, this guy is 10 times the player that Pierce is and would have started had he recovered. Pierce was a back-up and special teamer before last season. There is no way you can predict injuries and to say he is a bad signing because he became injured is ridiculous. He never showed any history of being injury prone.

RE: 7. Yep. You sit the whining crying babies or your honor your verbale commitment to him and release him when he pays back whatever amount of the bonus he said he'd pay back. This sends a very Reid-like, a very Belichek-like message : Hey we don't want cry babies here. We're the boss here. That message wasn't sent across and I'll admit Gibbs was trying to make the best out of a bad situation, but in the end he made the wrong decision.

Do you realize how much money we are saving by getting rid of Coles? Cutting him alone means we are going to be fine with the cap next season when many experts believed that is the year things would fall apart for us. What do we gain by having him ride the bench? He wastes a roster spot and then we get nothing when we do get rid of him.

RE: 8. What if we loose Taylor and Cooley? Why worry? Because I like those players, we drafted them we cultivated them, and I don't want to see them go to Dallas, or Philly, or the Giants. I'm tried of all our homegrown talent going elsewhere and succeeding. (Stephen Davis, Smoot, Pierce and countless others)

Sorry, but that's the new NFL because of free agency.

[redwolf1218]

it seems the answer would have been to pay Smoot and Pierce, then give Springs and Marcus a raise to match. then the fact remains, Marcus and Springs are better than Smoot and Pierce, so we have a good deal for the guys we kept, and those other teams overpayed for our guys who left. IMO.

[miconnol]

Again, you want it both ways. You want the skins to pay Smoot and Pierce what they want, but you want the Skins to exercise fiscal discpline like what Philly and New England do.

Im sorry; youre still wrong. The bonus might be payed out in the first two years, or in two payments. It all depends on the terms of the deal. BUT: The nfl doesnt recognize this structure and charges the pro-rated bonus amount each year agianst the team's cap. So a 15.75 million bonus over 6 years, might be paid in installments of 8.9 million--but the NFL charges about 2.5 million a year, and if you cut him, the cap is charged the remainder of the bonus minus the pro-rated years.

Neither Smoot or Pierce were core players. And they arent in cap hell. By your definition, every team that lost a player they wanted to keep, but refused to pay them what they wanted would be in cap hell. The titans had to dump several good players to get to the cap, Tampa did as well; thats cap hell. You're just whining.

but doesnt dumping that player show a strong Reid/Belecheck type message? Reid and Belecheck dont put up with aholes like Coles, they get rid of them. So did Gibbs.

Davis has succeeded? He had one good year at Carolina and has been injured every since. Name another(besides Brad Johnson) who left and did extremely well. And you have no clue how Smoot and Pierce will do gone from the Redskins, you're already assuming that they will be good. Yet another counter factual. Smoot will probably be better, but what about Pierce? He was a special teamer who only did well in a great system. Now he's out of that system.



First off, there were no guarantees that the NFL would have approved of that money give back by Coles. If the NFl rejects it, then where are you in your scenario.
A-The player isnt sitting, he's been benched. So he cant come back until the coach decides to bring him back.
B-Doesnt dumping him show that the FO wont tolerate people like him? Doesnt it show that its Gibbs' way or the highway?



I love how you think that having hamstring problems is worse than having a broken toe that the player refuses to have sugery on. Every FA comes to the Skins to get paid big bucks? Wow, ask Rabach and Patten about that.And the skins clear off Coles' ridiculous contract after this year. Moss might get a big deal, but it probably be less overall than Coles'



Good plan. So dump Coles and save the money(which there was no guarantees that the NFL would have allowed that) and go into the season with a rookie or Taylor Jacobs or Darnarian "Im really Jerry Rice, but the skins wont play me to prove it" McCants to take over his role? That would condeming the skins offense to be worse than last year. And every team loses homegrown talent, thats FA for you. The skins dont have that many more FAs than most teams in the NFL.

When you actually want to debate facts, and stop bringing up counter factuals and supposition, I will be more than happy to debate you.

Our definitions on a few things are different, and since you're not going to agree with me that the coles for moss swap was a bad move, I think that we should move on. Basically : I'm pissed that doing this every year just puts us back to square 1, and it seems that the Redskins are okay with loosing our home-grown players every year, because our free agent decisions haven't panned out. Philly doesn't loose the majority of its draft pics each year. Neither does NE. I hate loosing players this way. People buy up jersees and get all excited about these draft pics, then watch as the draft pics leave in free agency. True this happens to every team, but the skins have made a habit of it lately, and I'm tired of it. Brunell and Barrow will both cause some of our home grown talent to leave soon. Mark my words. This, to me, is CAP hell.

I'm done arguing about this. You win.

[rskinsfan10]

and it seems that the Redskins are okay with loosing our home-grown players every year, because our free agent decisions haven't panned out. Philly doesn't loose the majority of its draft pics each year. Neither does NE. I hate loosing players this way.

Actually, this is far from the truth. Have you noticed that we seem to never get any compensatory picks, while Philly does?

[akhhorus]

Actually, this is far from the truth. Have you noticed that we seem to never get any compensatory picks, while Philly does?

Or despite the fact that there is this percieved massive leaving of Redskins' players, none of them do much after they leave. Davis had a 1000 yard season for the Panthers, but was injured last year. Green has looked good at times and Johnson won a super bowl(but the defense won that). Thats about it, all the rest havent done anything. On top of that, the skins arent really out of line with the rest of the league on signing FAs. The skins, like most teams, have about 50-55% of the team wasnt drafted by them.

[akhhorus]

Our definitions on a few things are different, and since you're not going to agree with me that the coles for moss swap was a bad move, I think that we should move on. Basically : I'm pissed that doing this every year just puts us back to square 1, and it seems that the Redskins are okay with loosing our home-grown players every year, because our free agent decisions haven't panned out. Philly doesn't loose the majority of its draft pics each year. Neither does NE. I hate loosing players this way. People buy up jersees and get all excited about these draft pics, then watch as the draft pics leave in free agency. True this happens to every team, but the skins have made a habit of it lately, and I'm tired of it. Brunell and Barrow will both cause some of our home grown talent to leave soon. Mark my words. This, to me, is CAP hell.

I'm done arguing about this. You win.

If the skins got to the point where they had to CUT players to get to the cap because of these contracts, that would be cap hell. This isnt that. Brunell and Barrow are costing 3.5 million combined this year, that must be the reason that the cap is choked. Philly loses a ton of players to FAgency. Thats why they keep getting comp picks. NE lets players walk all the time. They just replace them with FAs or draft picks well.

[miconnol]

Actually, this is far from the truth. Have you noticed that we seem to never get any compensatory picks, while Philly does?

Before we start judging who's right and wrong lets get some facts straight?

(from www.nfl.com)

Under terms of the NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement, a team losing more or better compensatory free agents than it acquires in a year is eligible to receive compensatory draft picks.

The number of picks a team receives equals the net loss of compensatory free agents up to a maximum of four. The 32 compensatory choices announced will supplement the 223 choices in the seven rounds of the 2005 NFL Draft (April 23-24). This year, the compensatory picks will be positioned within the third through seventh rounds based on the value of the compensatory free agents lost.

Compensatory free agents are determined by a formula based on salary, playing time and postseason honors. The formula was developed by the NFL Management Council. Not every free agent lost or signed by a club is covered by this formula.

(me: Philly doesn't go out buying up everyone's free agents like we do, we probably loose an equivalent number of free agents as philly each year, but because we have no faith in our ability to draft players and cultivate talent from within, we spend tons of money on players and get no compensatory draft picks because the number lost is evened out/or surpassed by the number gained. This doesn't reall matter because we'd probably use those picks in a blockbuster trade package with some other team for some other useless free agent. its the only way the skins know how to build a team, we don't have a GM to guide this team in the drafts and free agency. We have a football coach trying to do too much, and an owner with a bottomless walet. And the real problem is, all the players and teams in the league know it.)

[akhhorus]

Before we start judging who's right and wrong lets get some facts straight?

(from www.nfl.com)

Under terms of the NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement, a team losing more or better compensatory free agents than it acquires in a year is eligible to receive compensatory draft picks.

The number of picks a team receives equals the net loss of compensatory free agents up to a maximum of four. The 32 compensatory choices announced will supplement the 223 choices in the seven rounds of the 2005 NFL Draft (April 23-24). This year, the compensatory picks will be positioned within the third through seventh rounds based on the value of the compensatory free agents lost.

Compensatory free agents are determined by a formula based on salary, playing time and postseason honors. The formula was developed by the NFL Management Council. Not every free agent lost or signed by a club is covered by this formula.

(me: Philly doesn't go out buying up everyone's free agents like we do, we probably loose an equivalent number of free agents as philly each year, but because we have no faith in our ability to draft players and cultivate talent from within, we spend tons of money on players and get no compensatory draft picks because the number lost is evened out/or surpassed by the number gained. This doesn't reall matter because we'd probably use those picks in a blockbuster trade package with some other team for some other useless free agent. its the only way the skins know how to build a team, we don't have a GM to guide this team in the drafts and free agency. We have a football coach trying to do too much, and an owner with a bottomless walet. And the real problem is, all the players and teams in the league know it.)

Far from a fair system. Philly gets Jevon Kearse and a few others, loses Bobby Taylor and Troy Vincent and they get the most picks? The titans lose a ton of players, sign no-one really and only get a 3rd and a 7th? All this means is that the skins arent losing much talent of their own, whilst acquiring talent.

And again, the skins are such free spenders that they only signed two players to modest deals this offseason. Makes sense.

[BurgundyNGold]

Compensatory free agents are determined by a formula based on salary, playing time and postseason honors. The formula was developed by the NFL Management Council. Not every free agent lost or signed by a club is covered by this formula.
So Smoot and Pierce are good enough to be signed away from us for huge $$$, but not good enough to make the Pro Bowl? What a bunch of hooey.

[miconnol]

Before we start judging who's right and wrong lets get some facts straight?

(from www.nfl.com)

Under terms of the NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement, a team losing more or better compensatory free agents than it acquires in a year is eligible to receive compensatory draft picks.

The number of picks a team receives equals the net loss of compensatory free agents up to a maximum of four. The 32 compensatory choices announced will supplement the 223 choices in the seven rounds of the 2005 NFL Draft (April 23-24). This year, the compensatory picks will be positioned within the third through seventh rounds based on the value of the compensatory free agents lost.

Compensatory free agents are determined by a formula based on salary, playing time and postseason honors. The formula was developed by the NFL Management Council. Not every free agent lost or signed by a club is covered by this formula.

(me: Philly doesn't go out buying up everyone's free agents like we do, we probably loose an equivalent number of free agents as philly each year, but because we have no faith in our ability to draft players and cultivate talent from within, we spend tons of money on players and get no compensatory draft picks because the number lost is evened out/or surpassed by the number gained. This doesn't reall matter because we'd probably use those picks in a blockbuster trade package with some other team for some other useless free agent. its the only way the skins know how to build a team, we don't have a GM to guide this team in the drafts and free agency. We have a football coach trying to do too much, and an owner with a bottomless walet. And the real problem is, all the players and teams in the league know it.)


Here's the link with the text from above. You can see who was lost to each team, and the league some how puts a "value" on each player. Not sure how that is calculated, but notice who Philly let go last year (Duece Emmons, Taylor, Vincent), and who they picked up, this is first year they really "broke the bank" so to speak with TO and Kearse.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/8314832

[redwolf1218]

Or despite the fact that there is this percieved massive leaving of Redskins' players, none of them do much after they leave. Davis had a 1000 yard season for the Panthers, but was injured last year. Green has looked good at times and Johnson won a super bowl(but the defense won that). Thats about it, all the rest havent done anything. On top of that, the skins arent really out of line with the rest of the league on signing FAs. The skins, like most teams, have about 50-55% of the team wasnt drafted by them.
I cant wait to see what Smoot and Pierce do elsewhere. It was fun watching Champ get torched.

[rskinsfan10]

Before we start judging who's right and wrong lets get some facts straight?

I'm fully aware of the facts. You being new here, you may not realize that we've discussed the comp guidelines that you posted several times in hR's existence. Thanks for posting it again.

However, those guidelines do not stop what you said earlier about the Redskins losing homegrown talent compared to Philly from being any different, to which I feel you were incorrect. As a matter of fact, I believe it further proves my point, that Philly has lost more homegrown talent then we have. It seems that theirs has been deemed "more talented" as a matter of fact.

[miconnol]

I cant wait to see what Smoot and Pierce do elsewhere. It was fun watching Champ get torched.

YES it was. He's really been badmouthing the org since he left, and there was speculation that he was dissuading Courtney Brown from coming to Wash, and Smoot from staying.

[Noerlingm]

Im a huge Sean Taylor fan but him and Moss need to be at Redskin Park with the team. Like most people on here have said and what im guessing is Sean and Moss are down in Miami working out with some other nfl U guys. I'm disappointed in Taylor and Moss for not being there now, but like someone has said i wont hit the panic button yet. who knows maybe Sean has been in Miami working with Ed Reed. I guarantee if the Redskins get in the playoffs and Sean and Moss have good years, no one is gonna remember all this.


Sean Taylor wants a new contract 1 year after signing a contract. This is not the type of player we want....... Yes he's good, but what good is he to us if he holds out...... Why do you think he sign on a new agent! He wants a new deal...... Can you say HOLD OUT! We will see, but I bet I'm right...

[Noerlingm]

Taylor should be there as well tho . . .you can't just let him off the hook


I think Taylor will be a hold out.......If he got a new agent to work out a new deal 1 year after signing a deal, I doubt he will be in camp of any kind. :banghead: The skins won't give him a new contract when he just signed one..... would you? :cry:
I will make the call now....... Hold out for Taylor and Moss is already signed, just waiting for June 2nd!

[CNYSkinFan]

YES it was. He's really been badmouthing the org since he left, and there was speculation that he was dissuading Courtney Brown from coming to Wash, and Smoot from staying.

That aint speculation it is an fact. Champ is the biggest cry baby in the NFL right now. Former abused children complain less about their former home then Champ does about the skins. I wrote a blog post earlier about the most hated ex-redskin and surmised Champ is going to be up there soon. One more year and no one will metnion Deion's name as much as champ when thinking of the worse ex-redskin.

[skinsfan36]

hes not going to hold out last year he signed his contract quick(which he didnt like the most) just to get into camp

[akhhorus]

YES it was. He's really been badmouthing the org since he left, and there was speculation that he was dissuading Courtney Brown from coming to Wash, and Smoot from staying.

Champ might have helped us not get Brown, which is a good thing; but I knew Smoot was gone last year at the draft party when all he talked about was money and he had on a solid platinum watch with diamonds all over it. I think Champ didnt tell him to not resign with the skins, but to take the most money, no matter who gave it. Which is exactly what he did: smoot sold his loyalty and his word for 800,000 bucks.

[Noerlingm]

I think Denver is a good place for both champ and C. Brown! Both wanted too much money and neither of them was worth it. We should send champ a thank you because players like brown and his 2 sacks a year are a dime a dozen. Champ never played for coach Gibbs.... what could he possibly say? :cry:

This is the first time since the salary cap was introduced that the redskins have a plan in place. Don't over pay! I hope they stick to there guns.

[miconnol]

Champ might have helped us not get Brown, which is a good thing; but I knew Smoot was gone last year at the draft party when all he talked about was money and he had on a solid platinum watch with diamonds all over it. I think Champ didnt tell him to not resign with the skins, but to take the most money, no matter who gave it. Which is exactly what he did: smoot sold his loyalty and his word for 800,000 bucks.

Agreed. Brown would have been a gamble. I'm torn here. Is it wrong to fault Smoot and Pierce for not staying? I constantly forget its a business first, game second, and people need paychecks. These guys are in their prime-earning potential years, and need to strike while the iron is hot. Thought I'm not sure how much hotter then iron was with a 800 K difference. I liked smoot, but I liked pierce more and I doubt we restructure Taylor's contract this year, maybe next year. He's going to be one angry customer. I bet you he'll want to be the highest paid saftey in the NFL within 2-3 years.

[Noerlingm]

Good, bad: its gonna happen no matter what; better they let them go and not overpay



So how is the Smoot and Pierce situation congruent to this? Smoot left for a heavily front loaded deal, and Pierce just lied and left for a little bit more money. Keep in mind: Pierce was just a Special teamer until his contract year and until GW. He's replacable. Paying them what they wanted(and I even thought the offers they made to them were too high) would make the skins' cap situation problematic in the future, even after Coles' deal was off the books.



More counter factuals. When you want talk "facts", Ill be more than happen to discuss this. And Coles didnt muscle the Skins, he wanted to be a FA. Which didnt happen, now did it? You can refuse to believe it all you want, but the fact is that the skins were offering a contract worth X to both Smoot and Pierce and after the Coles deal, they were still offered X. That completely undermines your argument. But if you want to keep beleives that it matters, go right ahead.



More counter factuals. The skins offered Smoot(and this came from public and private sources about 800,000 less overall than what the Viking ultimately gave him. Pierce's offer from the skins wasn't much less from what the Giants gave him(the skins offer a 4-6 million bonus, 23-25 million total over 6 years--he got 6 years-26 million with a 7.5 million bonus from the Giants). Both offers were in the WashPost and other sources LONG before they signed with their new teams.


Ay least someone reads the paper! You are dead right! The way those players left after the statements that they made............. See Ya! We need team players :banghead:

[Noerlingm]

Agreed. Brown would have been a gamble. I'm torn here. Is it wrong to fault Smoot and Pierce for not staying? I constantly forget its a business first, game second, and people need paychecks. These guys are in their prime-earning potential years, and need to strike while the iron is hot. Thought I'm not sure how much hotter then iron was with a 800 K difference. I liked smoot, but I liked pierce more and I doubt we restructure Taylor's contract this year, maybe next year. He's going to be one angry customer. I bet you he'll want to be the highest paid saftey in the NFL within 2-3 years.

I'll bet it will be this year, He just signed a new agent to work out a new deal 1 year after signing. Can you say hold out this year? I think Sean will not show up to any of the mini camps or workouts until he gets a new deal and this is just the beginning of the Sean Taylor story! I hope I'm wrong, but true colors always shine through........ We will see!

You can bet on one thing, our front office has a handle on this and our 1st draft pick will probable tell us what to expect. If we go with a CB or safty, That tells me Taylor is expected to be a hold out. If we draft a reciever than the Moss storie could be true. The one thing I do know is, there are not too many situations that catch Gibbs by surprise.

[akhhorus]

Agreed. Brown would have been a gamble. I'm torn here. Is it wrong to fault Smoot and Pierce for not staying? I constantly forget its a business first, game second, and people need paychecks. These guys are in their prime-earning potential years, and need to strike while the iron is hot. Thought I'm not sure how much hotter then iron was with a 800 K difference. I liked smoot, but I liked pierce more and I doubt we restructure Taylor's contract this year, maybe next year. He's going to be one angry customer. I bet you he'll want to be the highest paid saftey in the NFL within 2-3 years.

Taylor has a 5-6 year deal, if he's the higest paid safety in the NFL-the skins are the ones giving it to him. And you should be mad at Smoot: he said many times publically that he would stay if it came down to a few million difference, I cannot blame the skins for believing this only to see him sign for a total of 800,000 more.

Im more irritated about Smoot than Pierce. Pierce was good, but he didnt turn it on until his Unrestricted Contract year and he got into GW's system. Who was he beforehand? A special teamer barely in the league. He's replacable...probably relatively easily replaced. Marshall, Barrow or a draftee can do his job.

You will always lose players in the FA system, the question comes: can you replace them?

[miconnol]

I'll bet it will be this year, He just signed a new agent to work out a new deal 1 year after signing. Can you say hold out this year? I think Sean will not show up to any of the mini camps or workouts until he gets a new deal and this is just the beginning of the Sean Taylor story! I hope I'm wrong, but true colors always shine through........ We will see!

You can bet on one thing, our front office has a handle on this and our 1st draft pick will probable tell us what to expect. If we go with a CB or safty, That tells me Taylor is expected to be a hold out. If we draft a reciever than the Moss storie could be true. The one thing I do know is not many situations catch Gibbs by surprise.

Unfortunately I think Pacman Jones and Rolle will not be around at our pick at 9, and there's no safety in the draft that warrants a pick that high. Its still too early to write off Taylor, I think, and it'd be great to lock him up, but the way we structure contracts he'll only be happy for 2-3 years. I'd love to trade down too, pick up another DL, and one of the 2nd tier corners.

If Rolle and Jones aren't available, I'd go with Merriman, or Derrick Johnson, or a DE. Kennard Lang was our last D-line first round pick, Marcus Spears, or one of those types of guys could be helfpul. I'd like to try and shore up the Front 4. Also, I'd really like to see Chris Clemons become an every down player.

[akhhorus]

Unfortunately I think Pacman Jones and Rolle will not be around at our pick at 9, and there's no safety in the draft that warrants a pick that high. Its still too early to write off Taylor, I think, and it'd be great to lock him up, but the way we structure contracts he'll only be happy for 2-3 years. I'd love to trade down too, pick up another DL, and one of the 2nd tier corners.

If Rolle and Jones aren't available, I'd go with Merriman, or Derrick Johnson, or a DE. Kennard Lang was our last D-line first round pick, Marcus Spears, or one of those types of guys could be helfpul. I'd like to try and shore up the Front 4. Also, I'd really like to see Chris Clemons become an every down player.

Lang wasnt exactly "worth" that first rounder. Taylor has a contract for 5 more years, its way too early to even be discussing his departure from the team. He'll be fine, even if he doesnt get a new deal. After his deal, he'll be franchised and be the highest paid safety in the NFL. I seriously doubt Taylor will ever not be a skin.

[BIGSEF3]

Lang wasnt exactly "worth" that first rounder. Taylor has a contract for 5 more years, its way too early to even be discussing his departure from the team. He'll be fine, even if he doesnt get a new deal. After his deal, he'll be franchised and be the highest paid safety in the NFL. I seriously doubt Taylor will ever not be a skin.

i wouldnt trade taylor for anything less than payton manning (assuming it were economically feasible.)

[miconnol]

Taylor has a 5-6 year deal, if he's the higest paid safety in the NFL-the skins are the ones giving it to him. And you should be mad at Smoot: he said many times publically that he would stay if it came down to a few million difference, I cannot blame the skins for believing this only to see him sign for a total of 800,000 more.

Im more irritated about Smoot than Pierce. Pierce was good, but he didnt turn it on until his Unrestricted Contract year and he got into GW's system. Who was he beforehand? A special teamer barely in the league. He's replacable...probably relatively easily replaced. Marshall, Barrow or a draftee can do his job.

You will always lose players in the FA system, the question comes: can you replace them?

Yeah I think you're right, "can we replace them" becomes the question, but it would have been nice to lock them down and pay them for what they've done for us last year. Also, Pierce didn't get a look until Williams took over the DC position, and Barrow remained injured. AP's strength was his knowledge of the system, he was never a freak of an athlete like LaVar, but he was rarely out of position, always made solid tackles, and was dependable. I think thats worth alot of money these days. Guys like that come to work and do the little things correctly. As far as smoot goes, I'm upset he left, if he'd stay if the offer was close, but we don't know exactly how close the skins were, maybe we were off by more than was was said, I think that 800 K difference was in the bonus, not the yearly salary. (am I wrong?) Hopefully my boy Garnell Wilds from VT can contribute next year. Lets see if these younger guys step up and contribute?

[akhhorus]

Yeah I think you're right, "can we replace them" becomes the question, but it would have been nice to lock them down and pay them for what they've done for us last year. Also, Pierce didn't get a look until Williams took over the DC position, and Barrow remained injured. AP's strength was his knowledge of the system, he was never a freak of an athlete like LaVar, but he was rarely out of position, always made solid tackles, and was dependable. I think thats worth alot of money these days. Guys like that come to work and do the little things correctly. As far as smoot goes, I'm upset he left, if he'd stay if the offer was close, but we don't know exactly how close the skins were, maybe we were off by more than was was said, I think that 800 K difference was in the bonus, not the yearly salary. (am I wrong?) Hopefully my boy Garnell Wilds from VT can contribute next year. Lets see if these younger guys step up and contribute?

Well Gibbs was straight forward with the players(and they of course blabbed it all to the Press). Smoot's contract was front loaded, but overall it was 800,000 more. Pierce did know the system, but that doesnt mean that he's not replacable with Barrow or Marshall or a draftee. Both are replacable. Who you cant replace are guys like Portis, Lavar, Washington, Taylor.

[miconnol]

Lang wasnt exactly "worth" that first rounder. Taylor has a contract for 5 more years, its way too early to even be discussing his departure from the team. He'll be fine, even if he doesnt get a new deal. After his deal, he'll be franchised and be the highest paid safety in the NFL. I seriously doubt Taylor will ever not be a skin.


Well we've locked up Samuels long term, AND lavar, there are only so many double digit salaries the skins can afford, and surely taylor will want that kind of salary..... you're right though, it is early, but this contract hold out thing, stinks worse than Todd Pinkston's skibbies on Sunday Night. Look waht T.O. is doing in Philly, 1 great year and "I want more money". It'll be interesting to see what Reid does. Its not enough that T.O. got to play for the team that he wanted to be with, he has to have more money. This is a loose loose for the Eagles.

[miconnol]

Well we've locked up Samuels long term, AND lavar, there are only so many double digit salaries the skins can afford, and surely taylor will want that kind of salary..... you're right though, it is early, but this contract hold out thing, stinks worse than Todd Pinkston's skibbies on Sunday Night. Look waht T.O. is doing in Philly, 1 great year and "I want more money". It'll be interesting to see what Reid does. Its not enough that T.O. got to play for the team that he wanted to be with, he has to have more money. This is a loose loose for the Eagles.

Also, people thought that Champ was a redskins through and through, never thought we'd loose a player like that. Look how that turned out. I think champ was upset because we'd tossed money to LaVar who's definately more marketable than Champ, and none to him that year. We invested in a LB and not a CB. Now if LaVar can come around and be a stud in Gwilly's system his money will start to pay off.

[redwolf1218]

i got the feeling that Champ wanted to leave no matter what the money offer was, but the Smoot and Pierce departures came after both said they wanted to stay if the money was close, so to me those were more surprising.

[Noerlingm]

Well Gibbs was straight forward with the players(and they of course blabbed it all to the Press). Smoot's contract was front loaded, but overall it was 800,000 more. Pierce did know the system, but that doesnt mean that he's not replacable with Barrow or Marshall or a draftee. Both are replacable. Who you cant replace are guys like Portis, Lavar, Washington, Taylor.


Did everyone see last season? Sean Taylor was not rookie of the year. Did not make the pro bowl and did anyone see the dallas game? :banghead: He made Vinny look 10 years younger, If your not gonna pay Smoot how can you pay Taylor after just one year. To say he cannot be replaced (sean taylor) is a little strong...... how many other players will it cost to keep him?

[akhhorus]

Did everyone see last season? Sean Taylor was not rookie of the year. Did not make the pro bowl and did anyone see the dallas game? :banghead: He made Vinny look 10 years younger, If your not gonna pay Smoot how can you pay Taylor after just one year. To say he cannot be replaced (sean taylor) is a little strong...... how many other players will it cost to keep him?

Yeah, he was just the 1st alternate in his rookie year, despite not being a factor until the Chicago game. The pass defense shut down Vinny until the final drive without Smoot and down to the back of the bench. And the pass defense was noticibly worse when Taylor was out. I suggest you look at the tapes of the Philly games, Pittsburgh...all the games he was in from the Chicago game on.

[smoss]

I do NOT want Moss getting a new contract until he shows me something in a Redskins uniform, and if Taylor wants a new deal this is a really funny way to show it.

TEAM FIRST!!!?? :banghead:

I think thta's why Santana has not shown up, he wants a new deal. Rumor had it he would hold out from Jets TC unless he got a new deal which they werent' going to give him and so I think he'll stay away until they sign him long term.

[skins74]

skins74....i think you need a hug....

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/love/2/love13.gif

lol....

Sounds good :lol1:

[The 6th Dirtbag]

Dude, I'm worried. Does anybody else see what I see developing here? Taylor and Moss are supposedly holding out for new contracts. Gibbs does not tolerate stuff like that. Something is going to have to give. What if Gibbs and Co. decide Sean Taylor is turning into more of a problem than a great player (DUI and absense from mandatory rookie meeting last year; skipping voluntary workouts this year). I will be very upset if we have problems with Taylor down the road (seeing him be traded within 2 more seasons...). He is/will be the top safety in the game very soon. So what if he wants to skip VOLUNTARY workouts and train at Miami w/ Santana Moss. Big freakin' deal. Taylor was an alternate to the Pro Bowl his first NFL season for crying out loud. As long as he is playing at a Pro Bowl caliber level who really cares where he works out in the OFFSEASON. It isn't like he is holding out training camp or anything. Plus, his rookie contract is kinda weak. He proved himself early and now he wants to ensure he gets fairly paid for the many spectacular seasons he will give our team. If Gibbs wants another Super Bowl victory he sure as hell better understand that a coach must put up with a certain amount of attitude problems on his squad. I'm not saying we should let Taylor turn into a Randy Moss or anything, but sometimes (in this era especially) great players have big egos and less than perfect attitudes. So what? Not every great player in the NFL these days will be as classy as Art Monk, Jerry Rice, or Reggie White was. Those days are over, so Gibbs needs to undersdtand this. We sucked last year and are in no position to get firm with our best players. Also, I want badly for the Redskins to pick Miami CB Antrel Rolle with the #9 pick. I am worried that the selfishness displayed by the other Miami alumni on the 'Skins (minus Portis) will deter us from picking him, but he will surely have a great career. In fact, I bet that Antrel Rolle will end up being a better CB than Smoot will be for the Vikings. The Redskins can still build a "Team first mentality with True Redskins", but they will just have to leave room for a few cocky players (Taylor, Moss,...) who just might be the difference between a 7-9 season and a 10-6 season. If you want to win you have to pay your best players first. The elite Sean Taylor is one of them.

[theskins89]

what were those two thinking? taylor is no vetern, he's a sophmore in the league and moss just joined the team. Dont tell me that it was voluntary because this is the NFL and voluntary means be there.

[redwolf1218]

SANTANA MOSS

On signing with Washington:
"I want to first thank Coach (Gibbs) and thanks to as we all know our wonderful owner Mr. Snyder. I just want to thank those guys for giving me a chance to come here and be a big play guy like I drive on being. I think in life you have opportunities and one thing I have been known to do in my history is that every time opportunity knocks I came through. That is one thing I have behind me. I want everyone to know that I am going to come up here and give my all. I always give my all. I practice and play at 150 percent. That is the only way I know how to do it. I want to have fun. I am happy to be a Redskin today."

I am going to work to do the best that I can do for this team and work to be the guy that I am and work to be the guy that I'm known to be in the past."

fast forward...

Washington Redskins Coach Joe Gibbs expressed frustration yesterday over the absence of top wide receiver Santana Moss...

"Everybody should be here," said Gibbs, who stressed the importance of workouts during a team meeting that neither player attended last week. "Everybody should be here, and it's very disappointing to us when they're not here."

[portis2endzone]

i think if this were a MANDATORY mini camp or weekly practice then this would be a issue. untill then.......

[bgforever]

That aint speculation it is an fact. Champ is the biggest cry baby in the NFL right now. Former abused children complain less about their former home then Champ does about the skins. I wrote a blog post earlier about the most hated ex-redskin and surmised Champ is going to be up there soon. One more year and no one will metnion Deion's name as much as champ when thinking of the worse ex-redskin.

Word, and if you ask me, if he keeps it up, both the league and Gene Upshaw may have a talk with him, because I could swear he's dancing with tampering, since he's been directly "involved" with a form of "negotiation" by "persuation". One more time should send an obvious flag, and who knows maybe their thinking of it now. In the meantime, it is true, he has become the Dog that saw his reflection in the pond, with his bone in his mouth, but thought he saw an additional bone in another dog's mouth, barked, and lost what he had. His time, like all of ours in life will come.

[Keino]

i think if this were a MANDATORY mini camp or weekly practice then this would be a issue. untill then.......

League rules and the CBA prevent it from being 'mandatory'. I would ask myself this "If it wasn't mandatory, then why are all the players there but these two?". If you think that 2 players thinking they don't have to play by the same rules as the rest of their teamates, one of whom having never spoken to, nevermind catching a ball from his new QB isn't an issue then I don't know what to tell you.

[redwolf1218]

Gibbs, commenting on the absence of Moss and Taylor for 3 weeks of workouts:
"...it's very disappointing to us..."
That's a far cry from the glowing introductory press conference.

[whitskins]

League rules and the CBA prevent it from being 'mandatory'. I would ask myself this "If it wasn't mandatory, then why are all the players there but these two?". If you think that 2 players thinking they don't have to play by the same rules as the rest of their teamates, one of whom having never spoken to, nevermind catching a ball from his new QB isn't an issue then I don't know what to tell you.

But this is an issue that all teams employing Miami superstars are forced to deal with, so it's not like we have just got a couple of bad apples here. I'm not using these Miami workouts as a way to justify their absense, but it provides a little perspective.

I wish dearly that Moss were here to start training with Ramsey, but I guess I'm just not that surprised that they're both not here. Andre Johnson, Edge James, Shockey, etc are all down there too. On the plus side I think something that isn't getting as much pub is what this situation implies about Portis, this guy showed up in great shape on day one and has really stepped up to become a leader on this team.

[Keino]

I don't care what happens to Miami Players on other teams. It's no friggin excuse. The team that employs them is the Washington Redskins. Clinton Portis is a bigger star than both of them (Santana Moss havng done nothing worthy of being called a star and S. Taylor is a rising star) and he found his way to Ashburn. Michael Barrow is another U player at Redskins Park shedding Blood, Sweat and Tears with his teamates.

I'd rather have our players that are under contract here participating in the off-season program, especially when they are playing on a new team with a new coach and a new QB.

[whitskins]

I don't care what happens to Miami Players on other teams. It's no friggin excuse. The team that employs them is the Washington Redskins. Clinton Portis is a bigger star than both of them (Santana Moss havng done nothing worthy of being called a star and S. Taylor is a rising star) and he found his way to Ashburn. Michael Barrow is another U player at Redskins Park shedding Blood, Sweat and Tears with his teamates.

I'd rather have our players that are under contract here participating in the off-season program, especially when they are playing on a new team with a new coach and a new QB.

Didn't say it was an excuse, just that it provides perspective, meaning that it isn't surprising.

[Keino]

Im not surprised either, just extremely disappointed. I thought the purpose of getting raped in a trade was to cause a more harmonious, team-first locker-room.