The Official Skins/Broncos Trade thread (Keep It All In Here!!)

[suppitty]

I'll say one thing for being a Skins fan.... There is never a dull moment.
Except when our offense is on the field. Zing.

[ShaggySkins]

I don't like the deal from the standpoint that I believe our first rounder will be worse then 25th next season. My thought is that this will allow us to deal the 25th pick for Buchannon.

[DUCKIN_TACKLERS]

Save your breath. A couple of us have already said as much. It simply isn't working.
oh well... I look at it this way this trade is like a pack of skittles.....IMAGINE THE POSSABILITIES...damn i wish i was coming to the draft party now.

[tbfoster1]

Is anyone grasping the fact that we are not mortgaging next years draft...Its just 2 picks all be it a first but we still have Free agency next year and this draft is deep in DE WR and CB the 3 needs we have. im glad we jumped on this. to heck with next years draft we can add FAs or trade back into the first with a player or two.

thats what I'm saying. we need to worry about this year this year and next year next year. there will be plenty of time next year to talk about the 2006-2007 season. They pay people to worry and plan for the future. Lets all enjoy this moment, this week and this year. This trade is exciting

[whitskins]

I don't like the deal from the standpoint that I believe our first rounder will be worse then 25th next season. My thought is that this will allow us to deal the 25th pick for Buchannon.

Cerrato gave an interview with Redskins.com almost immediately after this trade went down saying we will absolutely not trade a first round pick for Buchanon. He also said we WILL explore trading down from #9 thoroughly despite what the Post reported today.

I really think the Buchanon rumors were the result of tear filled begging from the Raiders.

Here's the interview: LINK (http://www.redskins.com/uploads/files/JHCMDCDDGPID/Redskins.com%20Cerrato%20On%20Trade.mp3)

[SkinsASchamps]

The evolution of this thread is phenominal to read start to finish. that said i just talked to my friend (broncos fan). He said the broncos had been trying to trade out of that pick and didnt want it. he also said that he thinks they got a good deal out of this because he believes us to get another high pick slot in 2006. to which i told him where to stick it and that was over.

Im so excited about the draft now i dont think i will sleep or eat all week and i have two tests before friday....

[skinfandan]

This tells me that there is more to come as far as posturing for position. I agree that now we can move the #9 pick and still grab a CB or WR with the #25, stay tuned!

[ConradCountry]

I think that we will do this

-If Williams is at 9 then we take him and draft a CB at 25.

-If Williams is gone we take Pac Man at 9 and take Heath Miller at 25.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

I'm trusting Gibbs and the FO again.

I don't know how exactly, but I guess we will end up with a CB and a DE after the 1st round. If the team wanted to sign Courtney Brown and it couldn't, they must STILL feel we are missing a DE. I don't think we're going after Miller. Gibbs shows a lot of confidence in Taylor Jacobs. If we draft a WR it will be in the later rounds IMO.

[DUCKIN_TACKLERS]

I really think the Buchanon rumors were the result of tear filled begging from the Raiders.

Here's the interview: LINK (http://www.redskins.com/uploads/files/JHCMDCDDGPID/Redskins.com%20Cerrato%20On%20Trade.mp3)
I think the Raiders are in Cap hell arent they like 12 mil over how will they draft anyone? or have things changed.

[smoak]

So if everyone doesn't share in your opinion they are wrong? Yes, I can see getting on people who say "trade Arrington for Moss", but this is totally different. If a person can articulate why they feel the way they do (rather than just saying "this sux") why are they berated and belittled???

I personally am not a HUGE fan of the deal. I think the price was a little steep, especially considering we might have a top 10 pick next year. I hope not, but it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

But go ahead and cast me as the village idiot... I'm too busy updating my mock draft.

[whitskins]

I think the Raiders are in Cap hell arent they like 12 mil over how will they draft anyone? or have things changed.

Buchanon doesn't cost much on their cap, he is still under his rookie contract, but he's underachieved and has publicly asked out from the team.

[smoak]

I'm trusting Gibbs and the FO again.

I don't know how exactly, but I guess we will end up with a CB and a DE after the 1st round. If the team wanted to sign Courtney Brown and it couldn't, they must STILL feel we are missing a DE. I don't think we're going after Miller. Gibbs shows a lot of confidence in Taylor Jacobs. If we draft a WR it will be in the later rounds IMO.

I agree. While I am not a huge fan of this deal, I still completely trust the FO and coaching staff.

[rskinsfan10]

So if everyone doesn't share in your opinion they are wrong? Yes, I can see getting on people who say "trade Arrington for Moss", but this is totally different. If a person can articulate why they feel the way they do (rather than just saying "this sux") why are they berated and belittled???

I personally am not a HUGE fan of the deal. I think the price was a little steep, especially considering we might have a top 10 pick next year. I hope not, but it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

But go ahead and cast me as the village idiot... I'm too busy updating my mock draft.

No, differing opinions are welcome, but must they be of the variety that today's trade will be the cause of us never being a competitive team ever again, as many seem to be implying if you read between the lines?

[miconnol]

Dude you're right! We should have kept Bailey because he has such a low cap number and he didn't single handedly lose the Bucs game for us in 2003. Do you remember the TE scoring on the same play 3 times right in the spot Bailey should have been.

Also I don't think using future picks to trade up is ever a good idea. Last year the Front Office gave up a 2nd this year for a 3rd last year and all we got was Cooley. What a bad move!!! All these bad moves we have made, as of right now I am no longer a fan. I can't wait for Hockey to start!!!


You're telling me portis' cap number is any better than Baileys? Sean Taylor single handedly lost the 2nd cowboys game for us. So there goes that argument. Do we really know for sure if Bailey was supposed to be on those TE flats you were talking about. I know the plays, they frustrated me too.

Yes Chris Cooley, = 1 player. 2nd rounder, plus 3rd rounder = 2 players.
How is the math here for bodies difficult to comprehend? Cooley is a growing player, he showed us some stuff this year, but don't tell me that a 3rd rounder last year, and a 2nd rounder this year couldn't have shown us just as much, maybe more? Do you disagree?

[rskinsfan10]

You're telling me portis' cap number is any better than Baileys?

Yes it is. Bailey's deal is more expensive and heavily front loaded.

[RedskinRyan]

Hind site may be 20/20 but you wouldn't rather have Davis, champ and our 2nd round pick? Portis is eating up huge cap space, and it'll only get worse each year he's here. I'm glad portis delivered last year, but his 1300 yards didn't warrant a 2nd round pick AND champ bailey. Denver robbed us last year and they're robbing us this year. Complete horse crap.


so you;d rahter have chump, who would be making even more money than portis, and a player that you have no lcue really if he'll pan out or not? im not too big on this trade, but im more than pleased with last year's deal.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

Sean Taylor single handedly lost the 2nd cowboys game for us.

Do you remember the FF against Jones? And all the hits to Keyshawn? And the tackles behind the line? Don't look at just 1 play.

[smoak]

No, differing opinions are welcome, but must they be of the variety that today's trade will be the cause of us never being a competitive team ever again, as many seem to be implying if you read between the lines?

That is fair... I guess I just didn't see any of the extreme opinions yet. And this was NOT directed at you. I just saw a bunch of posts that seemed to belittle people who are 100% thrilled and that didn't make sense.

[whitskins]

The Raiders have just agreed to trade Buchanon to Houston. THANK THE LORD.

Just saw this on the breaking news header on ESPNNEWS, will post link ASAP.

[SkinsASchamps]

Can we get some sort of poll up about whether people like this trade or not now? and then one after the draft is over to see if we all like it then?

would be interesting.

[tbfoster1]

The Raiders have just agreed to trade Buchanon to Houston. THANK THE LORD.



Ditto

[hockeygoalie29]

You're telling me portis' cap number is any better than Baileys? Sean Taylor single handedly lost the 2nd cowboys game for us. So there goes that argument. Do we really know for sure if Bailey was supposed to be on those TE flats you were talking about. I know the plays, they frustrated me too.

Yes Chris Cooley, = 1 player. 2nd rounder, plus 3rd rounder = 2 players.
How is the math here for bodies difficult to comprehend? Cooley is a growing player, he showed us some stuff this year, but don't tell me that a 3rd rounder last year, and a 2nd rounder this year couldn't have shown us just as much, maybe more? Do you disagree?

Where do I start?!?! Portis' contract is definately better than Champs. In fact, his and Springs contracts PUT TOGETHER are worth LESS than Baileys.

Taylor making one bad play = waste of a pick? You've got to be kidding! How about we blame that game on our horrible offense?

Third, we did NOT give up a third and second for Cooley. We gave up this years second. That's it. Our second this year became our third last year.

[redskin_rich]

I'm staying on the fence on this one, as I'm pretty sure there is more moves to come.
To those of you that feel strongly one way or the other, there will be no definitive answer whether this was a good move or not any time soon. It will be years before we can properly evaluate this move.

[fent]

Start watching for that. When there is a dramatic move, it is a guarantee that about half the people hate it for undefined reasons. This site is one big psyche expirement. I plan on administering the MMPT at the draft party!

that's rich for a guy stuck in charleston...

[SkinsASchamps]

The Raiders have just agreed to trade Buchanon to Houston. THANK THE LORD.

Just saw this on the breaking news header on ESPNNEWS, will post link ASAP.


EXCELLENT. what did they do it for?

[CarMike]

http://www.planetnz.com/palmheads/images/button.gif

[rskinsfan10]

The Raiders have just agreed to trade Buchanon to Houston. THANK THE LORD.

Just saw this on the breaking news header on ESPNNEWS, will post link ASAP.
Maybe #25 for Clement, if they want to go that route with trading for an experienced CB. Williams drafted him I believe so I can see that happening.

[danny's stogie]

The Raiders have just agreed to trade Buchanon to Houston. THANK THE LORD.

Just saw this on the breaking news header on ESPNNEWS, will post link ASAP.

This night keeps getting better.

[RedskinRyan]

good, i'd hate the sight of buchanon in a skins jersey. i'd still like a cornerback with our 1st pick, and then maybe heath miller if he's still available. one of the picks has to be on offense, and i dont think any of the offensive players left when we come up first are worthy of the #9 pick.

[Bigskinbauer]

i heard this before i came to the site and at first i thought that i heard it wrong. I knew that Denver didn't want their pick so i was like maybe we could trade with them but the fact of the matter is that i think we could have gotten it cheaper b/c they didn't want that pick N E WAYS. our first will most likely be below and be better than the 25th next year. I mean first for first makes sense but not a third and a forth this is complete b/s

I'll just trust gibbs and co. like i have all last year

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

The Raiders have just agreed to trade Buchanon to Houston. THANK THE LORD.

Just saw this on the breaking news header on ESPNNEWS, will post link ASAP.
seriously.....

[rskinsfan10]

Can we get some sort of poll up about whether people like this trade or not now? and then one after the draft is over to see if we all like it then?

would be interesting.

Great idea. I'm about to change the poll on the homepage in a sec.

[SkinsASchamps]

jason campbell? (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2041257)

[whistleandthumb]

So, by that logic, 3 okay players are more valuable than 1 very good player? So Rod gardner, Renaldo Wynn and Matt Bowen are more valuable than Portis?


Classic post. Classic.

Come to think of it, Akh, this entire thread is some of your best work.

[SkinsASchamps]

Great idea. I'm about to change the poll on the homepage in a sec.

thank you

[miconnol]

mic and akh you both bring up good points. Loosing our 2nd round pick last year was bad considering Portis and Bailey are (or at least seemed at the time to be) of equal value. Then again maybe it was that or having to release Champ and get nothing. On the other hand, great teams are built through draft picks, and we have 2 first round picks amd there's alot of value there. Last but not least, and this is a question to mic. Do you know who Gibbs is looking at? have you interviewed him? have you watched film on him? do any of us have that 6th sense when it comes to finding the player with that intangiable that not many other scouts or coaches can find? NO, NO, and of course not. Gibbs does.

I agree with the first part of what you're saying here. But my argument here is that Gibbs is gambling here with our draft picks. It doesn't matter who Gibbs is targeting, in my mind 1 player doesn't justify loosing 3.

This is kind of how I see it. We have a better chance of finding talent with more picks (i.e. more bodies). If we keep trading them away every year how can we expect to get an return on our investments when we limit our chances from the get go? Why does no one agree with me here?

[fent]

Why does no one agree with me here?

why don't you agree with us? you can continue to think what you want, and we can continue to think you're wrong.

[miconnol]

People fear change and dramatic moves. Just notice the posts when there is a dramatic move with the skins.

When have these "changes" and "dramatic moves" we all speak of netted us a winning season in the last couple years? Why haven't these "changes" and "dramatic moves" lifted us into the playoffs?

[redwolf1218]

why don't you agree with us? you can continue to think what you want, and we can continue to think you're wrong.
that is the key. everyone has an opinion. i like this trade, but i dont feel the need to convince anyone else to join me, or call anyone names for their opinion. i just like to point out why i like it, and those who dont like it can point out their reasoning. i think we are heading into this draft without a lot of desparate needs on this team, so it's my opinion that we dont need a lot of picks. the extra picks might get cut anyway. we are now in a position to add a few select impact players to an already deep roster.

[Redskin4Life]

I don't know, I'm usually very supportive of our front office, especially this offseason, but this trade seems like a lot to give up to me... Can anyone make me feel better about this?
Now what if the 9 for PB, 2nd is true... except the 1st next year is added now. Then the thinking by the FO is that we gave up a 3rd this year and a 4th next for 2nd and a veteran CB. We still have a first (although we've fallen 16 picks) and picked up a 2nd and a CB.

We could still get a third for Gardner. And there's also the chance that we trade this pick (the 25) to the Bills for Clement and their 3rd.

Maybe the FO thinks MW will be gone and we need to get Matt Jones to replace him. Then use the 9 to move down 3-4 picks, get a 2nd and still have 3 picks in the first two rounds.

Do not fret yet. This trade is VERY INTERESTING.

[RedskinRyan]

Classic post. Classic.

Come to think of it, Akh, this entire thread is some of your best work.

thats cause there's plenty of chances for him to unleash on people's ideas and opinions

i'd prefer to use the 25th pick on offense, and get a CB at #9 or trade down and get one in the mid-1st and pick up another draft pick.

[lakeskin]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2041257

I hope they haven't given up on Pat already. I hope this is just more draft fodder that no one should pay attention too. Still scary tho.

[smoak]

I agree with the first part of what you're saying here. But my argument here is that Gibbs is gambling here with our draft picks. It doesn't matter who Gibbs is targeting, in my mind 1 player doesn't justify loosing 3.

This is kind of how I see it. We have a better chance of finding talent with more picks (i.e. more bodies). If we keep trading them away every year how can we expect to get an return on our investments when we limit our chances from the get go? Why does no one agree with me here?

Who cares if people believe you?

I'm not thrilled with the trade, but I don't care for the "chicken littles" who cry doom and gloom after every move.

How do you know Gibbs is targeting 1 player? I can think of about 10 guys around the 25th pick that would be GREAT additions.

[miconnol]

Is anyone grasping the fact that we are not mortgaging next years draft...Its just 2 picks all be it a first but we still have Free agency next year and this draft is deep in DE WR and CB the 3 needs we have. im glad we jumped on this. to heck with next years draft we can add FAs or trade back into the first with a player or two.

This is the kind of mentality that has burned us the past several years:

where is the wisdom in this : "to heck with next years draft" ?

[miconnol]

So if everyone doesn't share in your opinion they are wrong? Yes, I can see getting on people who say "trade Arrington for Moss", but this is totally different. If a person can articulate why they feel the way they do (rather than just saying "this sux") why are they berated and belittled???

I personally am not a HUGE fan of the deal. I think the price was a little steep, especially considering we might have a top 10 pick next year. I hope not, but it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

But go ahead and cast me as the village idiot... I'm too busy updating my mock draft.

You're not a village idiot, you have an informed opinion and you consider the big picture. If you're a village idiot then I probably have the town dunce cap on.

[WinnpegSkinsFan]

thats cause there's plenty of chances for him to unleash on people's ideas and opinions

i'd prefer to use the 25th pick on offense, and get a CB at #9 or trade down and get one in the mid-1st and pick up another draft pick.

this is exactly what I was thinking. Just heard the news about the trade. OMFG!!!! we sure have given up a lot but I think we can get a lot if we trade down draft Rogers to get another 2nd or 3rd rounder. I guess I'll have some real lively discussions with a Bears fan at work tomorrow.

[Bigskinbauer]

can someone make a poll to see if we like the trade yes or no

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

can someone make a poll to see if we like the trade yes or no
its been done.....go ahead and vote!

[WorldBFree76]

Wow...if they don't win at least 10 games this year, they got royally messed up.

[miconnol]

Yes it is. Bailey's deal is more expensive and heavily front loaded.

I don't have any cap numbers infront of me, nor do I know where to get them. But didn't portis become the highest paid RB in the game this past year? Then Bailey the highest paid corner? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. How much could these contracts have actually differed.

[redwolf1218]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2041257

I hope they haven't given up on Pat already. I hope this is just more draft fodder that no one should pay attention too. Still scary tho.
how ironic. we took ramsey last in the first when we felt he was on par with Carr and Harrington. now we are supposedly targeting Campbell late in the first with the thinking that he is on par with Smith and Rogers.

[miconnol]

why don't you agree with us? you can continue to think what you want, and we can continue to think you're wrong.

Sure. But haven't you seen this scenario before? Us, trading away draft picks for marquee players? Has this really worked out for us? And by worked out I mean : playoffs, and winning seasons?

[colkurtz]

1. The future is now.
2. The Redskins have changed their philosophy from building through FA to [mostly] building through the draft.
3. The FO thinks the team is just a few players, at key positions, from being a playoff contender. Those positions are C [Rabach], CB; WR; TE;DE.
4. This is a bold move shifting future assets toward moves for this season.
5. If we win a lot of games, this was a great move; if Ramsey plays mediocre football or the team falters again, this trade will be a disaster.
6. I see no way we trade up. Costs too much for one player and goes against the other new strategy to spread out the wealth.
7. #9 goes to a small tradedown to SD or KC, and they'll still try to get Rogers at CB.
8. CYNSkins may get his wish for Heath Miller (my new wish), although I think they will go for a WR like Clayton.

The skins drafted extremely well last year. The FO is betting they can do the same this draft, fill some holes with very good impact players in this season; win some games and leave those less valuable picks for Denver.
It's a gamble, it's bold, it's shows they have sand - let's see how it plays out.

[MWballer]

Gibbs & Co. know something that we dont or have something planned that we definetly dont know about you can say one thing there goes our quiet boring offseason lol. I think we should trade down our #9 pick for some more picks and use the 1st we pick up to get Demarcus Ware hes going to be a beast and with the 25th pick up Matt Jones then with the other picks get a corner like Ronald Bartell or Fabian Washington pick up a tightend and some line help on both sides of the ball.

[hockeygoalie29]

I don't have any cap numbers infront of me, nor do I know where to get them. But didn't portis become the highest paid RB in the game this past year? Then Bailey the highest paid corner? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. How much could these contracts have actually differed.

Champ signed at 63 million dollar deal. Portis signed a 50 million dollar deal. That's 13 million saved, which we used to go get Springs who has done just as good if not better than Champ.

I'll use your anology: 2 players and less money vs. 1 player and more money, which would you rather have?

[rskinsfan10]

I don't have any cap numbers infront of me, nor do I know where to get them. But didn't portis become the highest paid RB in the game this past year? Then Bailey the highest paid corner? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. How much could these contracts have actually differed.

Bailey 7 years $63mil $23mil in bonus money

Portis 8 years $50.5mil $17mil in bonus money

[joethefan]

What we have to understand is that if the Bronco's have a high pick next year, we won't have the cap space to sign a high draft pick anyway next year. I don't have a problem with it. I knew their was a poan in place....we just need to be patient.

[miconnol]

that is the key. everyone has an opinion. i like this trade, but i dont feel the need to convince anyone else to join me, or call anyone names for their opinion. i just like to point out why i like it, and those who dont like it can point out their reasoning. i think we are heading into this draft without a lot of desparate needs on this team, so it's my opinion that we dont need a lot of picks. the extra picks might get cut anyway. we are now in a position to add a few select impact players to an already deep roster.

I like your point there. I really don't mean to force my opinion on people, I come off that way. its just that I'm arguing for something that I'm passionate about. I see us make this mistake every year and it ALWAYS burns us, and really Gibbs' biggest knock is his ability to draft players. I think the last player he drafted before he retired was Desmond Howard (#5 overall)? I don't know.... I don't like giving away multiple players and putting much more pressure on that one we draft in they're stead.

[smoak]

how ironic. we took ramsey last in the first when we felt he was on par with Carr and Harrington. now we are supposedly targeting Campbell late in the first with the thinking that he is on par with Smith and Rogers.

I certainly don't think Carr or Harrington have been much better than Ramsey.... All have disappointed.

[miconnol]

Bailey 7 years $63mil $23mil in bonus money

Portis 8 years $50.5mil $17mil in bonus money


I don't know how these are broken up, but can they really be that different? Sure we're saving a bit more $ by not paying Bailey, but how much more is the question, I'm saying its not THAT much more.

[whitskins]

I like your point there. I really don't mean to force my opinion on people, I come off that way. its just that I'm arguing for something that I'm passionate about. I see us make this mistake every year and it ALWAYS burns us, and really Gibbs' biggest knock is his ability to draft players. I think the last player he drafted before he retired was Desmond Howard (#5 overall)? I don't know.... I don't like giving away multiple players and putting much more pressure on that one we draft in they're stead.

You're still holding Desmond Howard against Gibbs when he drafted Sean Taylor and Chris Cooley LAST YEAR??

[colkurtz]

Champ signed at 63 million dollar deal. Portis signed a 50 million dollar deal. That's 13 million saved, which we used to go get Springs.

People just conveniently forget the fact that Champ was burned for 8 TDs his last year with us. The "shutdown CB" hype did not meet reality. He also DID NOT WANT TO STAY ON THIS TEAM AT ANY PRICE!

Bottom line is we will not know how good this trade was until after the draft and then when the season ends (i.e., did we make the playoffs?)

[ImmortalDragon]

You're still holding Desmond Howard against Gibbs when he drafted Sean Taylor and Chris Cooley LAST YEAR??
Gibbs knows what he's doing, he proved that last year when he traded this years 2nd rounder to get Cooley.

[DUCKIN_TACKLERS]

This is the kind of mentality that has burned us the past several years:

where is the wisdom in this : "to heck with next years draft" ?
to heck with next years draft is not what im saying....Im saying let next year happen next year. You can hate this all you want i am inclined to think that we may end up with awesome additions this year and then we wont be in dire need of anything next year. see IMO it goes like this.
THE GIBBS PLAN
YEAR 1 - Bring in FAs to help the Team immediately and evaluate Roster.
Year 2 - ADD IMPACT young players on the first day to anchor this team
Year 3 - Pick up a FA or 2 a Draft Pick or 2 and reap what we have sown from year 1 or 2
WE are just seeing the different ends of the spectrum this year.

[fent]

Sure. But haven't you seen this scenario before? Us, trading away draft picks for marquee players? Has this really worked out for us? And by worked out I mean : playoffs, and winning seasons?

again, we're not talking players, we're talking picks. we can take a chance and draft two first rounders who have a higher possibility of contributing both now and in the future, or we can take a chance and take a player 50-100 picks later with a MUCH smaller chance of equal contribution.

[miconnol]

1. The future is now.
2. The Redskins have changed their philosophy from building through FA to [mostly] building through the draft.
3. The FO thinks the team is just a few players, at key positions, from being a playoff contender. Those positions are C [Rabach], CB; WR; TE;DE.
4. This is a bold move shifting future assets toward moves for this season.
5. If we win a lot of games, this was a great move; if Ramsey plays mediocre football or the team falters again, this trade will be a disaster.
6. I see no way we trade up. Costs too much for one player and goes against the other new strategy to spread out the wealth.
7. #9 goes to a small tradedown to SD or KC, and they'll still try to get Rogers at CB.
8. CYNSkins may get his wish for Heath Miller (my new wish), although I think they will go for a WR like Clayton.

The skins drafted extremely well last year. The FO is betting they can do the same this draft, fill some holes with very good impact players in this season; win some games and leave those less valuable picks for Denver.
It's a gamble, it's bold, it's shows they have sand - let's see how it plays out.

Don't your 1stand 2nd points contradict one another? How can you say the future is now, and then try and build through the draft, if you build through the draft you're saying you're taking your time developing a team. Growing your draft picks and keeping them around. We simply don't do that here in Washington.

[whitskins]

I don't know how these are broken up, but can they really be that different? Sure we're saving a bit more $ by not paying Bailey, but how much more is the question, I'm saying its not THAT much more.

How are you still arguing this? Portis is cheaper and filled a huge need. Bailey would never have come back to our team and is grossly overpaid with the new CB rules, we also signed a player for half Champ's price who was far better last year, Shawn Springs.

Who cares how close the contracts are, Champ would have never played for us again and we upgraded him for half the price with Springs, while getting a Pro Bowler to play RB...

[rskinsfan10]

I don't know how these are broken up, but can they really be that different? Sure we're saving a bit more $ by not paying Bailey, but how much more is the question, I'm saying its not THAT much more.

Dude, you are talking about almost $13mil more in total salary, $6mil more in total bonus money, and 1 less year to spread it out? And to boot, as I said earlier, Bailey's deal is heavily front loaded.

I don't know about your math, but mine tells me that Portis' deal is way more friendlier then Bailey's.

[redwolf1218]

i couldnt believe it when i got on here and read about this trade. i find it totally shocking and exciting after so much boredom. i bet we still have some tricks up our sleeves.

[WinnpegSkinsFan]

1. The future is now.
2. The Redskins have changed their philosophy from building through FA to [mostly] building through the draft.
3. The FO thinks the team is just a few players, at key positions, from being a playoff contender. Those positions are C [Rabach], CB; WR; TE;DE.
4. This is a bold move shifting future assets toward moves for this season.
5. If we win a lot of games, this was a great move; if Ramsey plays mediocre football or the team falters again, this trade will be a disaster.
6. I see no way we trade up. Costs too much for one player and goes against the other new strategy to spread out the wealth.
7. #9 goes to a small tradedown to SD or KC, and they'll still try to get Rogers at CB.
8. CYNSkins may get his wish for Heath Miller (my new wish), although I think they will go for a WR like Clayton.

The skins drafted extremely well last year. The FO is betting they can do the same this draft, fill some holes with very good impact players in this season; win some games and leave those less valuable picks for Denver.
It's a gamble, it's bold, it's shows they have sand - let's see how it plays out.

I agree. I may have to aplogize to CYNSkins because #25 definetly could be a spot for Miller. I could see that happening now. Either Miller or a WR.

[PennSkinsFan]

Well, the next four days are going to be very interesting because something tells me this is the beginning of our moves. I simpyl do not seeing us staying with #9 and #25, not both.

[skins4life24]

My fingers hurt.
well now your backs going to hurt . . .cause you just pulled landscaping duty!
:lol1:

[BigCountry]

What is it about Ramsey that Gibbs dislikes so much? He seems like the type of guy Gibbs would like. If this happens, Gibbs looses the benefit of my doubt at least. Who else is on the Green Bay drafting Jason Campbell bandwagon?

[DUCKIN_TACKLERS]

to heck with next years draft is not what im saying....Im saying let next year happen next year. You can hate this all you want i am inclined to think that we may end up with awesome additions this year and then we wont be in dire need of anything next year. see IMO it goes like this.
THE GIBBS PLAN
YEAR 1 - Bring in FAs to help the Team immediately and evaluate Roster.
Year 2 - ADD IMPACT young players on the first day to anchor this team
Year 3 - Pick up a FA or 2 a Draft Pick or 2 and reap what we have sown from year 1 or 2
WE are just seeing the different ends of the spectrum this year.
Also the players i remember giving picks for where Portis, Cooley, Thrash and all have been productive how is this burned

[miconnol]

You're still holding Desmond Howard against Gibbs when he drafted Sean Taylor and Chris Cooley LAST YEAR??

Point taken. But, for the sake of argument, was Howard the no-brainer that Sean Taylor was?

[skinsfan36]

this is great now we can pac man,and matt jones we will be alotr better now

[miconnol]

well now your backs going to hurt . . .cause you just pulled landscaping duty!
:lol1:

Good stuff..hahah.

[redwolf1218]

Point taken. But, for the sake of argument, was Howard the no-brainer that Sean Taylor was?
i think so. i've heard it said that at the time, anyone would have taken him. everyone thought he was awesome.

[rskinsfan10]

Point taken. But, for the sake of argument, was Howard the no-brainer that Sean Taylor was?

We are talking about the Heisman Trophy winner, aren't we?

[PennSkinsFan]

this is great now we can pac man,and matt jones we will be alotr better now
Don't think so. I just don't see us keeping both. In order for Gibbs to acquire #25 that tells me plans have been made for #9, which we woudl have problems fitting under the cap.

[bgforever]

Which is why we made a trade like this to get another high quality impact player, not more projects. We have plenty of depth on offense, the problem is too many of them were starting last year (Raymer, Brown, Brunell, Gardner, whoever played TE)...

Great point for me. I see where many of you feel we have more coming on this to grab rd2 and rd 3slots too. I better cool on this one, cause the real gun slingers are dealing in the FO, which means I'd go nuts trying to figure their exact scenario for draft day. I am getting at least a feel from you guys, cause there are so many options :)

[skins74]

I guess Denver has naked pictures of Vinny and Snyder....... :weak:

That must be it. Because this is insane. Unfortunately its not suprising. :cry:

[miconnol]

How are you still arguing this? Portis is cheaper and filled a huge need. Bailey would never have come back to our team and is grossly overpaid with the new CB rules, we also signed a player for half Champ's price who was far better last year, Shawn Springs.

Who cares how close the contracts are, Champ would have never played for us again and we upgraded him for half the price with Springs, while getting a Pro Bowler to play RB...

This is easy to argue now for you, because it seems we've gotten more value for Portis, all I'm saying is their contracts are NOT that much different, we're paying Portis a TON of money, it just happens that we're getting a little ROI.

[whitskins]

Point taken. But, for the sake of argument, was Howard the no-brainer that Sean Taylor was?

He was a Heisman winner and a true blue chipper, but either way who care? So Taylor was a no brainer, what about Chris Cooley? Nobody knew who this kid was and he was one of our offensive MVP's. My point is judging Gibbs' drafting abilities on Desmond Howard doesn't make sense when he had a great draft in his first year back from 12 years away from the game.

[akhhorus]

When have these "changes" and "dramatic moves" we all speak of netted us a winning season in the last couple years? Why haven't these "changes" and "dramatic moves" lifted us into the playoffs?

And keeping players and doing nothing would have gotten the skins wins? If the skins gave Champ what he wanted to stay(which would have been a boatload). You can forget Samuels, Taylor, Springs, Washington, pierce, Smoot, Portis and the skins would have had to cut a player or two. I dont think you concieve how much Bailey is costing. 68 million total, 20+ of that in the first 2 years.

[rskinsfan10]

This is easy to argue now for you, because it seems we've gotten more value for Portis, all I'm saying is their contracts are NOT that much different, we're paying Portis a TON of money, it just happens that we're getting a little ROI.

Their contracts are drastically different. What are you talking about?

[akhhorus]

I don't have any cap numbers infront of me, nor do I know where to get them. But didn't portis become the highest paid RB in the game this past year? Then Bailey the highest paid corner? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. How much could these contracts have actually differed.

Portis 50 million total(back loaded) Bailey 63 million(front loaded). Clear as the summer sun now?

[bgforever]

i couldnt believe it when i got on here and read about this trade. i find it totally shocking and exciting after so much boredom. i bet we still have some tricks up our sleeves.

Hey I'm in the pinch me club too! I wish I was a bit better on personnel changes under a Gibbs regime, but he is so darn tricky.

[skins4life24]

portis wasn't the highest running back he got the biggest signing bonus i believe

[redwolf1218]

Don't think so. I just don't see us keeping both. In order for Gibbs to acquire #25 that tells me plans have been made for #9, which we woudl have problems fitting under the cap.
excellent point. they have now stated they are shopping the 9. salaries drop drastically from there down to mid-first round. if they want Campbell, i seriously doubt he'll be around at 25. they could move down to around 15 and get him, plus gain another pick, and still have the 25.

[whitskins]

Portis 50 million total(back loaded) Bailey 68 million(front loaded). Clear as the summer sun now?

Apparently not b/c Kenny said the exact same thing a few pages ago and the contracts are still being referred to as similar by the opposition.

[Skinzealot]

QB? If that is the case, Gibbs would have to be unimpressed with Ramsey. I can't imagine them taking a QB without inviting them in first. If they want a QB, do they think Rodgers will fall to 9?

Matt Jones makes a lot of sense. He could potentially play three positions that worry us: QB, WR, TE.

Could they have targeted Jones, and be planning on not taking any chances?

I don't see why you would make this trade unless there was a specific player with superstar potential you are specifically targeting.

I do feel bad for Ramsey if it is a QB besides Jones, as he'll never really have had an entire year with a solid scheme where he was unquestionably the starter.

Yeah, competition is good, etc., but I would think it gets psychologically wearing to never have actions from the organization that tell you you are the starter.

I love the Jones pick. I say draft him, start him from day one as reciever, let him learn under fire, and if Ramsey blows, he's learned the offense anyway.

[Redskin4Life]

Well, for those of you that don't know yet... Buchanon's NOT coming to Washington. He was traded to the Texans for their 2 and 3 picks. I guess that's why we traded our 3 away.

[akhhorus]

I don't know how these are broken up, but can they really be that different? Sure we're saving a bit more $ by not paying Bailey, but how much more is the question, I'm saying its not THAT much more.

:rolleyes: this has to be one of the ridiculous statements of the night. Its significantly higher and you said "Can they really be different". C'mon, you're just looking for reasons to criticize now.

[skins4life24]

Well, for those of you that don't know yet... Buchanon's NOT coming to Washington. He was traded to the Texans for their first. But the Texans got Oak's 2 and 3 picks.
very interesting . . .there goes another rumor down the drain . . .my bet is 2 will take its place
Patrick Surtain anyone!? lol

[miconnol]

again, we're not talking players, we're talking picks. we can take a chance and draft two first rounders who have a higher possibility of contributing both now and in the future, or we can take a chance and take a player 50-100 picks later with a MUCH smaller chance of equal contribution.


Well this is tough to argue because it becomes a numbers game. Like: How many first round draft picks never pan out, and how many 50-100 picks actually become legit talent. I think those two numbers are much closer than people think, thus making draft picks that much more valuable.......

"MUCH smaller chance of equal contribution?" thats where I disagree.

These late round draft pics are where you build your depth, and ultimately your team.

[redwolf1218]

i think the people who want all the late round picks are thinking about guys like Tom Brady taken in the 5th. personally, i want the 1st round picks to make day 1 of the draft last longer. i'm excited.

[akhhorus]

Well this is tough to argue because it becomes a numbers game. Like: How many first round draft picks never pan out, and how many 50-100 picks actually become legit talent. I think those two numbers are much closer than people think, thus making draft picks that much more valuable.......

"MUCH smaller chance of equal contribution?" thats where I disagree.

These late round draft pics are where you build your depth, and ultimately your team.

And the skins still have those picks. What your next complaint?

[skins4life24]

i think the people who want all the late round picks are thinking about guys like Tom Brady taken in the 5th. personally, i want 1st round picks to make day 1 of the draft to last. i'm excited.
brady was 6th rounder

[redwolf1218]

so right now what do we have exactly? (2) 1st's, a 4, a 6 and a 7? is that correct?

[miconnol]

Apparently not b/c Kenny said the exact same thing a few pages ago and the contracts are still being referred to as similar by the opposition.

Someone want to break down the front loaded contract Bailey got, and the back-loaded contract Portis got? Year by year? WHich years the bonus go on, and how the salaries escalate? Can someone provide accurate numbers on this, or show me where to find them. If there is a multiple million dollar (5+ mil) difference in the first 3 years of the contract I'll shut my mouth. Otherwise the difference, in my eyes is negligible(sp?). Portis = lots of money Bailey = lots of money.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

What a complete and utter disgrace of a trade. I'm apalled at what the front office has just done. I can't believe, after how many times the fans, coaches, journalists, heck, even Snyder himself, have all said that we need to stop giving away our draft picks, we turn around and do the exact same thing. And for the 25th pick? Twenty-fifth? Is that some kind of horrible joke? Does anyone here really think our first-rounder next year is gonna be lower than twenty-fifth? In all likelihood, we just gave them a higher first-rounder, plus two lower picks, in order to get one player. "But we could trade down with it and pick up more," you say. Great. That doesn't fix next year.

I'm disgusted.

[akhhorus]

Someone want to break down the front loaded contract Bailey got, and the back-loaded contract Portis got? Year by year? WHich years the bonus go on, and how the salaries escalate? Can someone provide accurate numbers on this, or show me where to find them. If there is a multiple million dollar (5+ mil) difference in the first 3 years of the contract I'll shut my mouth. Otherwise the difference, in my eyes is negligible(sp?). Portis = lots of money Bailey = lots of money.


Portis:
http://nflpa.org/Members/playerProfile.asp?ID=33030
First 3 years: 4.5 million+bonus+3-4 million roster bonus, so about 13.5-14.5 million
Bailey:
http://nflpa.org/Members/playerProfile.asp?ID=26997
first 3 years: 7.5 million+signing and roster bonuses, so about 17-20 million.

[COUNCILMAN]

I have no idea what to even say at this point. But I sure as hell wish that this thread would be closed so I don't have to sift through 20 pages of reactionary posts exclaiming "I can't believe what the Skins did!"

Please Por Favor...lets close out this thread and start a day after the trade thread so we can have some sanity on the posts.

P.S. you outta check out what the Bronco fans are sayings on their thread.

They all think its a great trade because this is such a weak draft and then next year they will have a top 10 pick because the Skins suck and always pick in the top 10. Got to thinking about it and they are actually right. We almost always do pick in the top 10.

Thats how we got Michael Westbroke....Heath Shuler....Champ Bailey.....Sean Taylor....Lavar Arrington.....and we even finished 15...thats how we got Rod Gardner. Plus we traded away our 1st round pick for Brad Johnson just so Minnesota could draft Dante Culpepper.

We have a lot of history of screwing up 1st round picks or WASTING THEM...including trading away a number 1 pick for Coles only to lose Coles.

Maybe that has all stopped now that we had a successful draft with Sean Taylor last year and Chris Cooley. Lets continue that and hope the Skins don't give the Broncos a top 10 pick.

[DUCKIN_TACKLERS]

Someone want to break down the front loaded contract Bailey got, and the back-loaded contract Portis got? Year by year? WHich years the bonus go on, and how the salaries escalate? Can someone provide accurate numbers on this, or show me where to find them. If there is a multiple million dollar (5+ mil) difference in the first 3 years of the contract I'll shut my mouth. Otherwise the difference, in my eyes is negligible(sp?). Portis = lots of money Bailey = lots of money.
Are you asking this Question over and over to build your post numbers. Let me explain it to you the best I can the Broncos paid Bailey a huge bonus and we gave Portis a Large signing bonus but not as big and it is spread over an extra year and Baileys base money was mostly up front where as we back loaded Clintons contract so in 5 Years if he pans out which he will we give him another Big Signing Bonus which delays his cap hits years out. Where Bailey will Require High Salarys paid up front and if he Get another SB it will be almost all bonus as opposed to when we give portis one mostly it will be converting future salarys to Garunteed money.

[redwolf1218]

classic Gibbs. he gave away picks for guys like Gerald Riggs and Wilbur Marshall. he traded Schraeder for Jim Lachey (i've been warning about trading Ramsey for a while). he had nightmares over 1st rounders like Desmond. i dont blame him.

[MoeRedskins]

so, is anybody ever not amazed by what happens week to week now. I have less of an idea now as to what the skins will do then I ever did. Weekends don't start soon enough.

[tbfoster1]

What a complete and utter disgrace of a trade. I'm apalled at what the front office has just done. I can't believe, after how many times the fans, coaches, journalists, heck, even Snyder himself, have all said that we need to stop giving away our draft picks, we turn around and do the exact same thing. And for the 25th pick? Twenty-fifth? Is that some kind of horrible joke? Does anyone here really think our first-rounder next year is gonna be lower than twenty-fifth? In all likelihood, we just gave them a higher first-rounder, plus two lower picks, in order to get one player. "But we could trade down with it and pick up more," you say. Great. That doesn't fix next year.

I'm disgusted.

maybe nothing will need to be fixed next year after a good draft this year

[akhhorus]

What a complete and utter disgrace of a trade. I'm apalled at what the front office has just done. I can't believe, after how many times the fans, coaches, journalists, heck, even Snyder himself, have all said that we need to stop giving away our draft picks, we turn around and do the exact same thing. And for the 25th pick? Twenty-fifth? Is that some kind of horrible joke? Does anyone here really think our first-rounder next year is gonna be lower than twenty-fifth? In all likelihood, we just gave them a higher first-rounder, plus two lower picks, in order to get one player. "But we could trade down with it and pick up more," you say. Great. That doesn't fix next year.

I'm disgusted.

Jds, I disagree with you, but thank you for making a coherent argument.

[colkurtz]

Don't your 1stand 2nd points contradict one another? How can you say the future is now, and then try and build through the draft, if you build through the draft you're saying you're taking your time developing a team. Growing your draft picks and keeping them around. We simply don't do that here in Washington.

No, we tried to use FA to upgrade quickly for 5 straight seasons, but we've had a lot of busts. The team record has consistently been poor with this "building through FA" idea. Meanwhile NE and the Beagles draft well and consistently win.

Time to change the way we do business, wouldn't you say?

If you draft smart and get high quality players they can make an impact their first year. Taylor and Cooley both did that. My point is that the FO thinks they can repeat the draft results from last year. Get players who move up quick, make a wave and are younger, home-grown to the Redskins idea and finally ... cheaper. Like I said: the future is now, through the draft.

The FO has just spoken with bold action toward this idea.

[miconnol]

And the skins still have those picks. What your next complaint?

Um, we have 1 selection in 4th round this year? Correct? We lost our 2nd last year for Cooley, our 3rd this year for Denvers "amazing" 25th pick. That leaves us 1 pick in the "build a franchise" range, instead of 3.

1-32 = 1st round
33-62 = 2nd round
63-95 = 3rd round
95 - 127 = 4th round

(supplementals fit in there somewhere, but we don't have any those, so it doesn't matter)

My next complaint is that I pay good money for football tickets, expensive beer and food, parking passes, overpriced jerzees and am constantly mocked by my friends who are eagles/cowboys/giants fans because we never amount to squat.

akhhorus, cmon man side with me on this one.

[redwolf1218]

Someone want to break down the front loaded contract Bailey got, and the back-loaded contract Portis got? Year by year? WHich years the bonus go on, and how the salaries escalate? Can someone provide accurate numbers on this, or show me where to find them. If there is a multiple million dollar (5+ mil) difference in the first 3 years of the contract I'll shut my mouth. Otherwise the difference, in my eyes is negligible(sp?). Portis = lots of money Bailey = lots of money.
i think if you look at it over the 1st 3 years, we got Portis and Springs for less than they are paying Champ.

[miconnol]

No, we tried to use FA to upgrade quickly for 5 straight seasons, but we've had a lot of busts. The team record has consistently been poor with this "building through FA" idea. Meanwhile NE and the Beagles draft well and consistently win.

Time to change the way we do business, wouldn't you say?

If you draft smart and get high quality players they can make an impact their first year. Taylor and Cooley both did that. My point is that the FO thinks they can repeat the draft results from last year. Get players who move up quick, make a wave and are younger, home-grown to the Redskins idea and finally ... cheaper. Like I said the future is now, through the draft.

The FO has just spoken with bold action toward this idea.


Okay, well then maybe I mis-interpreted your definition of "The future is now."

[cwh25]

according to Fatsquarelli, the 'Skins are eyeing Jason Campbell with the 25th pick. (not sure if anyone already posted this)

link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2041257)

[akhhorus]

Um, we have 1 selection in 4th round this year? Correct? We lost our 2nd last year for Cooley, our 3rd this year for Denvers "amazing" 25th pick. That leaves us 1 pick in the "build a franchise" range, instead of 3.

1-32 = 1st round
33-62 = 2nd round
63-95 = 3rd round
95 - 127 = 4th round

(supplementals fit in there somewhere, but we don't have any those, so it doesn't matter)

My next complaint is that I pay good money for football tickets, expensive beer and food, parking passes, overpriced jerzees and am constantly mocked by my friends who are eagles/cowboys/giants fans because we never amount to squat.

akhhorus, cmon man side with me on this one.

Yeah, because 3rd and fourth rounders are always great picks. Yes, sometimes you hit homeruns, but more often than not, you dont. The skins gave up the 76 or 77th pick to Denver. Both picks last year: Derrick Strait and Derrick Hamilton. Who? And there there were no stars coming out of the fourth round last year. Settle down.

And if you want to b*tch about paying for tickets, then sit at home and watch the game for free. I have no sympathy if you're paying for tickets, jerseys and stuff and getting teased. You made the committment, and nowhere on the ticket does it say: playoffs or your money back.

Your next complaint?

[redwolf1218]

according to Fatsquarelli, the 'Skins are eyeing Jason Campbell with the 25th pick. (not sure if anyone already posted this)

link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2041257)
i think someone mentioned it about 15 pages back...and of course a new thread was started about it.

[cwh25]

i think someone mentioned it about 15 pages back...and of course a new thread was started about it.

I was sure someone had to have, I just didn't see it. this thread has gotten huge.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Jds, I disagree with you, but thank you for making a coherent argument.

As much fun as it would be to read through 25 pages of thread, any chance you could save me the trouble by explaining why you like the trade? Honestly, I think this is the worst draft-related move we've made since Michael Westbrook.

[rskinsfan10]

WARNING!!!!

This thread will be shut down and archived shortly.

[colkurtz]

CYNYSkins - where are you dude? I thought you'd have fired up the "Heath Miller" bus in a big cloud of white smoke [no pun intended]. #25 is right down there in the territory for Mr. Miller, although the Jets may be going to him earlier.........

Get that bandwagon going, Heath may yet get a jet ride with Dan Snyder!