Ramsey's Stats indicate Playoff year

[COUNCILMAN]

After reviewing a number of successful QB's and highly drafted QB's and comparing their first 3 seasons to Patrick, I have come to the conclusion that year #4 should be a playoff year for the Redskins. This is based upon the success or failure comparisons to other QB's during their first THREE years as a STARTER....and I have found that the TD to Games/Started ratio seems to be a key for successful QB's.

Games started TD passes INT's TD/game started

Culpepper 27 47 29 1.7

Brady 30 46 26 1.5

McNabb 38 54 32 1.4

Ramsey 23 33 28 1.4

Plummer 36 41 59 1.1

McNair 22 23 18 1.0

D. Carr 43 34 42 .79

Notice David Carr and his very low TD per start ratio and of course Houston has had no playoff hopes yet. Steve McNair and the Titans did not become the Titans that we know until AFTER those first 3 years and McNairs 1.0 ratio.

Plummer has a big contract the the Broncos are always in the playoff hunt but his first 3 years his ratio was low.

Patrick Ramsey, considering he has had an erratic 3 years with 2 coaches and 2 different system and terrible receivers....has kept pace with McNabb and Tom Brady. This is very encouraging. He is poised to be a pro bowl player.

[akhhorus]

I would say the difference between Ramsey and the others on that list is that they all showed flashes of greatness. Ramsey hasn't. I would argue that Ramsey hasn't shown even that he is a compentant starter in the NFL. You can blame Spurrier all you want, but the fact is that Ramsey hasn't shown anything to get excited about. Stats dont tell you everything, and Ramsey, except for that 4 game stretch in 03, hasn't shown much.

Here's something you dont mention. Ramsey hasn't had a QB rating for a season over 75.8 in his 29 starts. McNabb(84.1), Culpepper(98.0), Brady(who hasn't been lower than 85.7), Bulger(101), McNair(80.1) had all done better by the same points in their careers. Carr has done worse than Ramsey, until 04, his qb rating was in the 60s. He posted an 83 in 04. Ramsey, despite the rep as a gunslinger, has only had 2 300 yard games and posted a 100+ qb rating in 5 starts.

Please tell me again how you think that he's this superstar waiting to happen?

[ShaggySkins]

Honestly I've never been sold on Ramsey. 2 years ago I questioned his ability to be a starter and said he was the biggest question mark and some people on this board wanted to hang me for that. I still think he remains the biggest question mark on the team, it just seems like everytime he begins to show some glimpses he then takes 2 steps back with a bonehead play. COUNCILMAN I really hope you are correct, I honestly just don't see it with Ramsey. I think this is the year he NEEDS to breakout, the excuses are now gone for him in my opinion. There has been enough excuses made for him everything from Spurrier to Brunell have been blamed on his lack of improvement at this point now 4 years into his career its time for him to really step up.

[bwparker]

I have been saying this...though in a slightly different way... for MONTHS...QBs almost ALWAYS suck their first three years. Ramsey wasn't SUPPOSED to be any good yet, if he is going to pan out, then it will happen this year...MAYBE next. People want every QB to be Peyton or Vick or Rothlesberger and the TRUTH is that is very **Spencored** rare, most QBs(including the great ones) do NOTHING of value until their 4th year


And I would say that Ramsey has shown that he can lead a team...what he's lacked is constistant quality decisions...i.e maturity. I won't make the bold prediction that CouncilMan is making(though I commend you for your faith), but I will say that fans have no justification for complaining about a QB until AFTER his fourth year.

[GMUskinsfan]

I think it's not exactly accurate to say ramsey has shown nothing. He's won tough games, displayed flashes of talent, and has shown poise, leadership, and courage all with average talent and marginal coaching. I do agree that all these things mean nothing if they don't equal wins especially in washington. But i do have faith in ramsey this season and i would disagree with anyone who's already prepared to declare him a bust. He has atleast one more season to show something. Give the man a fair chance.

[ShaggySkins]

My issue with Ramsey is that he has shown no real marked improvement. The team also hasn't improved and a part of that is due to Ramsey. If you look over the prior 3 years his stats have been nearly the same and at times have gone down.

The only stat that he has shown improvement on has been the completion % and a good portion of that can be attributed to Gibbs conservative offense in which a lot of shorter screen passes are thrown

Completion %:
2001: 51.5%
2002: 53.1%
2003: 62.1%

Interceptions:
2001: 8
2002: 9
2003: 11

He actually threw more interceptions last season despite playing in less games then in 2002. Also in 2002 he played in Spurriers throwing offense so you would have expected him to have more interceptions not less.

Touchdowns:
2001: 9
2002: 14
2003: 10

Nothing of note really here, he threw more in 2002 but he also played in 2 more games and started 11 games compared to only starting 9 in 2003.

QB Rating:
2001: 71.8
2002: 75.8
2003: 74.8

Again despite what many people said his best year came under Spurrier.


This post was not made to bash Ramsey and like I said I hope he is wrong. But to say he's shown improvement just doesn't show statistically. Maybe it appears like he is in the games but if you look at his stats and the team wins it just has not translated. This is the year where it HAS to translate to more wins and better statistics. This is going on his 4th year as a starter, he has to show improvement. Last year he actually regressed despite the common notion that this is a more QB friendly system then what Spurrier had. Maybe that doesn't worry many of you but it does me.

[COUNCILMAN]

Honestly I've never been sold on Ramsey. 2 years ago I questioned his ability to be a starter and said he was the biggest question mark and some people on this board wanted to hang me for that. I still think he remains the biggest question mark on the team, it just seems like everytime he begins to show some glimpses he then takes 2 steps back with a bonehead play. COUNCILMAN I really hope you are correct, I honestly just don't see it with Ramsey. I think this is the year he NEEDS to breakout, the excuses are now gone for him in my opinion. There has been enough excuses made for him everything from Spurrier to Brunell have been blamed on his lack of improvement at this point now 4 years into his career its time for him to really step up.

Shaggy, you're right on, and you're pointing out what we all know, that Ramsey has done nothing spectacular so far...and has suffered through a lot of disappointment and folks have made excuses. Of course he needs to breakout, and thats what this thread is about. Its about the timing. The 4th year is quite often the year than many QB's end up beginning their career. Sometimes its the 5th and sometimes its the 3rd...but generally it takes 3 years of playing or sitting and watching or sitting and playing or whatever...THREE years inside a pro environment in order to get ready. Thats includes Kurt Warner who played ball professionally before he joined the Rams.

Patrick has had a number of setbacks, many of which should not be looked at as EXCUSES...but should be looked at as OBSTACLES which he has had to battle. Remember, while McNabb and Brady have had the luxury of coming along in the same system with the same coach, Patrick Ramsey had had to unlearn, and relearn, and reload each season. Anyone who would say Patrick had not shown anything "special" up to now, really needs to get glasses and take a football 101 course. Thats because any QB who can play his first 3 years and end up with MORE TD passes than Ints while battling different coaches and different systems...is indeed special. That has been born out throughout the history of the NFL.

Lets revisit this thread in about 5 months and see if Ramsey is special AFTER 3 years instead of being labeled as nothing special during his first 3 years. Anybody can see what he has done in those initial 3 years and then lay claim that he has seen nothing special. Those are the people who continually have a bleak outlook and are shortsighted in nature. Those are the kinds of people who look at Peyton Manning and can predict with accuracy that he will have a good season this year.duh.

What I am predicting, over Dr. Doom....is that Ramsey will be a pro bowl QB this year and lead the Skins to a playoff spot. I believe the TD to game started ratio is the biggest single key in determining this and NOT his QB rating or even his completion percentage. I will put my rep on this factor and let DR. Doom continue to live out his life in his cubicle of negativity.

[redwolf1218]

i think Campbell, at his best, will be better than Ramsey at his best. therefore, i expect Ramsey to have a good year, then become 1st round trade bait, and then Campbell will take over.

[SonnyandSam]

I have to disagree with my buddy Akhorus on this one (and it doesn't happen often). We can't rely on the numbers game to figure out what Patrick can do. The poor guy has not had decent coaching and a consistent PRO offense to develop into a quality quarterback.

All the other quarterbacks used as a comparison have been nurtured by their coaches to succeed. Ramsey was essentially thrown to the wolves by Spurrier and told to "chuck the ol' ball" to somebody who's open. When protected, he played quite well. But when teams found out the ol' ball coach didn't give a ratz azz to protecting his quarterbacks, Patrick succumbed to the pressure. On top of that he had no running attack and pretty crappy receivers.

Frankly, I consider last year, Patrick's rookie season under Gibbs and company. I agree he needs to show his metal this season....and I think he will. Pro Bowl?........that may be a stretch....but I think Patrick can play quarterback in this league.....he has shown flashes of quality quarterbacking at times. Patrick can be as good as Rypien and Williams were when they led Joe's teams to the Super Bowl.

Give the kid a chance to play in a well coached environment for more than a handful of games.

[skins111111]

Ram--- had a 65% completion ratio and threw more TDs than pics at the end of last year........................now he is #1-healthy #2-matured #3-behind what looks to be a very good O-Line #4-has some healthy speed WRs #5-Cooley, DMac and Royal underneath not to mention CP #6-great coaching with a tweeked system #7 great run support #8 great D and ST for good field position
playoffs- no doubt in my mind, I would love to find someone willing to wager a little coin :)

[Kope65]

I don't know about Pro Bowl- but I will bet dollars to doughnuts he is one of the better QBs in the league next year. Here is the why- It is his team. Period. His play was not stellar last year, but the team as a whole played better and started to play in synch with each other. Brunnell flat lost the team and they played like it. He will get the team as a whole to play better and that is how we will win more games, by playing as a team- just like the D did last year. Leadership cannot be measured in stats.

[DUCKIN_TACKLERS]

There is 1 thing alot of people ignore IMO...most top flight QBs take so long to develop not cause they stink so to speak but generally thier team stinks. Everyone always talks about teams having 3 yr plans and alot of the time the first part of the plan is getting a QB the team comes together later and that is where I see the drastic improvement for alot of teams..Just look how much better Brees got with LT and then the final pieces coming in Gates and then Mccardell. The same can be said for Manning who got really good with the emergence of Edge and Harrison and then came Wayne. Big Ben benifited from stepping into a team that already had the parts around him and all he had to do was keep from loosing games. Ben is not that much more impressive to me than most QBs but his team was ready to win... This brings me to Ramsey he in essence hasnt had the complete puzzle when his WRs where crappy he only had Davis. Then they got rid of Davis and picked up Coles. Then they blew everything up and the O-line and WRs regressed. In all the stats of Ramsey just go to show me that he can perform if his team can perform. This tells me that he will never be a guy who will take over a game but he has the skills to manage a team and with Portis Moss and Jacobs(who I am expecting to emerge) Ramsey should have a decent shot at pulling a Brees or Manning,hell i'd even be happy if he pulled a Dilfer.

[ShaggySkins]

There is 1 thing alot of people ignore IMO...most top flight QBs take so long to develop not cause they stink so to speak but generally thier team stinks. Everyone always talks about teams having 3 yr plans and alot of the time the first part of the plan is getting a QB the team comes together later and that is where I see the drastic improvement for alot of teams..Just look how much better Brees got with LT and then the final pieces coming in Gates and then Mccardell. The same can be said for Manning who got really good with the emergence of Edge and Harrison and then came Wayne. Big Ben benifited from stepping into a team that already had the parts around him and all he had to do was keep from loosing games. Ben is not that much more impressive to me than most QBs but his team was ready to win... This brings me to Ramsey he in essence hasnt had the complete puzzle when his WRs where crappy he only had Davis. Then they got rid of Davis and picked up Coles. Then they blew everything up and the O-line and WRs regressed. In all the stats of Ramsey just go to show me that he can perform if his team can perform. This tells me that he will never be a guy who will take over a game but he has the skills to manage a team and with Portis Moss and Jacobs(who I am expecting to emerge) Ramsey should have a decent shot at pulling a Brees or Manning,hell i'd even be happy if he pulled a Dilfer.


Ramsey hasn't exactly played with bad players around him. He's had a pair of pro bowl tackles, 2 pro bowl RBs (Davis and Portis), a pro bowl reciever (Coles) along with other solid recievers although no one else spectacular. He has had around him a lot more then a lot of people realize. And certainly a lot more then Brees, Carr, and other young QBs have had around them.

[DUCKIN_TACKLERS]

Ramsey hasn't exactly played with bad players around him. He's had a pair of pro bowl tackles, 2 pro bowl RBs (Davis and Portis), a pro bowl reciever (Coles) along with other solid recievers although no one else spectacular. He has had around him a lot more then a lot of people realize. And certainly a lot more then Brees, Carr, and other young QBs have had around them.
True he had talent around him but never a team Spurrier had all those players playing below thier potential and Ramsey was eating a sack that killed a drive like every 3 snaps. The point I attempted to make is that QBs are most affected by the surrounding Team and most unless spectacular talents can only slightly raise the overall level of play. In essence I believe Ramsey will prove to be sufficent but not spectacular this year with the overall improved talent and scheme from years past.

[Death_Venom]

I would say the difference between Ramsey and the others on that list is that they all showed flashes of greatness.

Titans game, rookie year???...........Looked pretty good to me..........And please do not try to excuse it with the old "they had no film of Ramsey study"-cause that is just a piss poor excuse in any situation.

[Death_Venom]

Ramsey hasn't exactly played with bad players around him. He's had a pair of pro bowl tackles, 2 pro bowl RBs (Davis and Portis), a pro bowl reciever (Coles) along with other solid recievers although no one else spectacular.

Gardner is by no means a "great" player-he i shardly even decent at best. Coles was good and played well in the final year of Spurriers'. Ramsey & Coles were a good tandem yet Ramsey was picking himself off the ground every other play due to the fact we had traded Davis (fro what reason I have no clue) and RB core was superbly crappy. So it was easy to blitz Ramsey and essentially shut down the passing game knowing full well we could not run the ball with any effectiveness.

Now the reverse has happened Coles was traded due to lack of performance, most of our other WR's are average at best. Portis can barely run the ball with 8 in the box and most teams knew we couldnt pass the ball very last season.

Surrounding a player with "pro-bowl" caliber teammates is not the solution. Look at the '92 Skins great players, several were pro-bowl players and they were not very successful.

[akhhorus]

I have to disagree with my buddy Akhorus on this one (and it doesn't happen often). We can't rely on the numbers game to figure out what Patrick can do. The poor guy has not had decent coaching and a consistent PRO offense to develop into a quality quarterback.

All the other quarterbacks used as a comparison have been nurtured by their coaches to succeed. Ramsey was essentially thrown to the wolves by Spurrier and told to "chuck the ol' ball" to somebody who's open. When protected, he played quite well. But when teams found out the ol' ball coach didn't give a ratz azz to protecting his quarterbacks, Patrick succumbed to the pressure. On top of that he had no running attack and pretty crappy receivers.

Frankly, I consider last year, Patrick's rookie season under Gibbs and company. I agree he needs to show his metal this season....and I think he will. Pro Bowl?........that may be a stretch....but I think Patrick can play quarterback in this league.....he has shown flashes of quality quarterbacking at times. Patrick can be as good as Rypien and Williams were when they led Joe's teams to the Super Bowl.

Give the kid a chance to play in a well coached environment for more than a handful of games.

I hope you're right, but Ramsey has never shown any consistancy. Blame spurrier all you want, but Ramsey hasn't strung together 3 good games yet. Does he have talent? Sure. But unless he takes a major step this year, he'll never realize it.

My bigger concern is this: despite having an offense that wanted to go down field with Spurrier(and had the wideouts in 03) and one that in theory wanted to go down field with Gibbs, and despite having the reputation for a cannon of an arm: Ramsey only has 10 passes for longer than 40 yards.

I go back to what Wilbon has said that opposing defenders say is the book on Ramsey: He can make the throws, but he cannot read a defense. He's had three years, if he can't read what a defense is doing by now, he never will.

[silverspring]

I think we should all keep in mind when looking at these statistics that when comparing previous years to this year that we possible had the worst offense in the nfl and I would attribute a major part of that to the coaching decisions (play calling, actual plays themselves, clock mgmt, etc.) The only reason our offense may have seemed ok comparable is because our defense gave them so many opportunities.

-go bullets

[akhhorus]

What I am predicting, over Dr. Doom....is that Ramsey will be a pro bowl QB this year and lead the Skins to a playoff spot. I believe the TD to game started ratio is the biggest single key in determining this and NOT his QB rating or even his completion percentage. I will put my rep on this factor and let DR. Doom continue to live out his life in his cubicle of negativity.

DR. Doom? You can be more creative than that. You're the one who has been screaming about the demise of the Skins because they don't have a pass rush, dont have a reggie white-esque DE, don't have a #1 wideout, don't have you as GM. I just point out how you mislead people and use selective and wrong facts, thats not a "cubicle of negativity", that reality. Maybe if you actually debating when someone points out your crap, instead of running away which is what you always do. You have never debated an issue after someone brings up an obvious factual flaw in your argument. There's a word for someone like that.

So you believe that TD to game ratio is the best indicator of a QBs ability and nothing else matters? And Ramsey's TDs to game ratio is comparable to the great QBs of today?

Ramsey: first 29 games/33 TDs
Peyton Manning: first 29 games/52 TDs
McNabb: first 29 games/31 TDs+6 tds rushing
Culpepper: first 29 games/ 48 TDs
Brady: first 29 games/42 TDs
Aaron Brooks: first 29 games/45 TDs
Marc Bulger: first 29 games/44 TDs
Carr: first 29 games/18 TDs
Carson Palmer: 13 games/18 TDs
McNair: first 29 games/23 tds+10 tds rushing(but a lot less picks than Ramsey has and a better Qb rating)
Delhomme: first 29 games/31 Tds
Trent Green: first 29 games/34 Tds

It doesnt look like Ramsey is even in the the same ballpark as the good and decent QBs at this point of their careers. Your comparison is wishful thinking. Delhomme and Trent Green are the best comparisons, but Green ripped off
100 more TDs since then(and showed much more by this point of his career than Ramsey). Delhomme ripped off 17 TDs in the next 9 games after his first 29, do you see Ramsey doing that in his next 9 games?
And i would bet that Yards per attempt is seen as a better indication of a QB's proficiency. And Ramsey's(6.42) is pretty low:
Manning: 7.59
Culpepper: 7.78
McNabb: 8.26 in 04
Favre: 7.1
Delhomme: 7.25
Brady: 7.79 in 04
Trent Green: 7.66
Matt Hasselback: 7.1

Considering the accuracy of your usual predictions, Ramsey is destined for a terrible season and career.

So, since I've pointed out some facts that completely contradict your argument, now its time for you to ignore this thread?

[akhhorus]

I think we should all keep in mind when looking at these statistics that when comparing previous years to this year that we possible had the worst offense in the nfl and I would attribute a major part of that to the coaching decisions (play calling, actual plays themselves, clock mgmt, etc.) The only reason our offense may have seemed ok comparable is because our defense gave them so many opportunities.

-go bullets

I would say that despite getting plenty of opportunities from the Defense last year, Ramsey failed to capitalize on them, and often bungled games away. Thats a more damning indictment of Ramsey than any stat. He had a good running game and a great defense, and still had trouble scoring the ball. Why should Gibbs have major confidence in him. And before you say:
Well, he has Moss, Patten, Jansen, Portis, Rabach, etc this year. The good QBs don't need major talent around them. You see how good they are despite having crap around them. Do you think Favre would have done poorly if he was the skins' starter last year? Manning? Carson Palmer?

[ShaggySkins]

Titans game, rookie year???...........Looked pretty good to me..........And please do not try to excuse it with the old "they had no film of Ramsey study"-cause that is just a piss poor excuse in any situation.


Don't you find something wrong when the 1 game that you can point to where Ramsey showed flashes of being great was 3 years ago?

[redskin_rich]

Don't you find something wrong when the 1 game that you can point to where Ramsey showed flashes of being great was 3 years ago?
Ramsey looked very good in the 2nd Giants game last year and I would say he played decent on the whole once he became the starter. He made some mistakes but he also played through the toughest part of the schedule, 4 out of 7 were playoff teams.
In Gibbs' system the QB doesn't have to be great, they just have to not make mistakes and know when a play is dead and throw it away. Big difference from the "old ball coach" who detested giving up a play and punting.
Regardless of what the anti or pro Ramsey people think, the bottom line is, he has to improve this year and show once and for all that he can be a winning QB in the league, no more excuses whether they carry weight or not.

[silverspring]

I would say that despite getting plenty of opportunities from the Defense last year, Ramsey failed to capitalize on them, and often bungled games away. Thats a more damning indictment of Ramsey than any stat. He had a good running game and a great defense, and still had trouble scoring the ball. Why should Gibbs have major confidence in him.

I wouldn't say anything good about the offense Ramsey worked in last year. I think 1/3 fhe games he played he was put in losing games and another 1/3 was against very good football teams which we were not.



And before you say:
Well, he has Moss, Patten, Jansen, Portis, Rabach, etc this year. The good QBs don't need major talent around them. You see how good they are despite having crap around them. Do you think Favre would have done poorly if he was the skins' starter last year? Manning? Carson Palmer?

Yes I would say with confidence that I think Favre would have done poorly as the skin's starter last year. You can put the ball in favre's hand and give him randy moss to throw it too, but if you only throw it to the line of scrimmage you can only do so much.

[BIGSEF3]

man, i was getting worried. It had been a good 3 or 4 days since someone had made a new ramsey post.

[SonnyandSam]

I hope you're right, but Ramsey has never shown any consistancy. Blame spurrier all you want, but Ramsey hasn't strung together 3 good games yet. Does he have talent? Sure. But unless he takes a major step this year, he'll never realize it.

My bigger concern is this: despite having an offense that wanted to go down field with Spurrier(and had the wideouts in 03) and one that in theory wanted to go down field with Gibbs, and despite having the reputation for a cannon of an arm: Ramsey only has 10 passes for longer than 40 yards.

I go back to what Wilbon has said that opposing defenders say is the book on Ramsey: He can make the throws, but he cannot read a defense. He's had three years, if he can't read what a defense is doing by now, he never will.

You just need a little dose of optimism, my friend. You're spending too much time fretting over that dissertation.

One of my favorite book titles of all time......How to Lie with Statistics....great little text book that's pretty funny, too. So let me do my spin.

Let's look at the final five games of last year. Skins go 3-2 with losses to Philly and Dallas....Let's be honest, Philly was clearly the better team and had a great defense. Dallas....well we should have won and Patrick was part of the problem.

But in those five games, Patrick's completion percentage was over 64 percent in every game. His QB rating was over 100 in 3 of our final 5 games. He threw 7 TDs and had 4 interceptions. I think these are very encouraging numbers when you consider our receivers were not running precise routes and dropping easy catches far to often especially on third down (Gibbs admitted this), Gibbs playcalling was still quite conservative despite opening the attack up some, and Ramsey was under significant pressure.....10 sacks and a ton of hurries.

No doubt about it, Ramsey has to become more consistent and needs to prove himself this year.

But let's do a fair comparison. How has Ramsey done compared to those in his draft class (2002)? Has Carr or Harrington played better? Absolutely not. Neither has the 13 QBs drafted after him played even close to Ramsey.

Let's look at the Class of 2001....OK, I'll give you Vick; Brees was no better by his third year, His fourth year was a breakout year....and so might Patrick's. And the 9 QBs drafted after Brees have pretty much been camp fodder or 3rd string QBs.

So from those two draft classes, Ramsey ranks third best so far out of 27 drafted quarterbacks; SECOND if you don't count Brees fourth year which Patrick has not played yet.

Even if you throw in the 13 QBs from the class of 2003, has Leftwich or Palmer shown any more promise than Ramsey has? I think that's arguable. So during that three year span Ramsey has to rank somewhere between second and fifth best out of 40 drafted QBs over that three year period.

Sometimes we are toughest on our own children and forget our own children are pretty damn well behaved compared to all the other hellians in the neighborhood.

See, in relative terms, Ramsey's progress is not all that bad....is it?

[Ibleedburgundy]

I would say the difference between Ramsey and the others on that list is that they all showed flashes of greatness. Ramsey hasn't. I would argue that Ramsey hasn't shown even that he is a compentant starter in the NFL. You can blame Spurrier all you want, but the fact is that Ramsey hasn't shown anything to get excited about. Stats dont tell you everything, and Ramsey, except for that 4 game stretch in 03, hasn't shown much.

Here's something you dont mention. Ramsey hasn't had a QB rating for a season over 75.8 in his 29 starts. McNabb(84.1), Culpepper(98.0), Brady(who hasn't been lower than 85.7), Bulger(101), McNair(80.1) had all done better by the same points in their careers. Carr has done worse than Ramsey, until 04, his qb rating was in the 60s. He posted an 83 in 04. Ramsey, despite the rep as a gunslinger, has only had 2 300 yard games and posted a 100+ qb rating in 5 starts.

Please tell me again how you think that he's this superstar waiting to happen?

whoa, whoa, whoa. Did you not see the Giants game last year in which Ramsey went 19 of 22 (with Rod dropping an easy, easy pass)?!? That was a flash of greatness. Did you not see the game in Atlanta a year prior, when Ramsey lead the Redskins back from a huge deficit at halftime? I believe he had 340 plus passing yards and a couple td's. You don't call that a flash of greatness?!? Not to mention, when he throws the ball, he's accurate, has a gun, and when he's on, it's a beautiful thing. I know some folks just aren't too high on Ramsey, and they have bad memories of footballs sailing way over the head of a wide open Laverneaus Coles in the end zone, but to me he has earned this job TWICE now, it's freaking his. He's a vet now, the mistakes will subside. Joe Gibbs has won Super Bowls with lesser-talented QB's (namely Mark Rypien).

[Ibleedburgundy]

sources. It was off the top of my head the first time. Good to see my memory serves me well.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20030914_WAS@ATL

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20041205_NYG@WAS

[DUCKIN_TACKLERS]

sources. It was off the top of my head the first time. Good to see my memory serves me well.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20030914_WAS@ATL

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20041205_NYG@WAS
as i sit here in my redskin PJs i have to wonder am i the only one who thinks Ramsey is gonna do just as well as the whole. I just dont think he is able to carry a team the way Vick is. IMO if you believe Ramsey will be better you have to believe the team as a whole is better.

[redskinz#1fan]

Everyone just needs to relax and have a little faith in Ramsey. Please give the kid a chance this year, and if he stinks up the place then the hell with him. But I really don't see that happening. Ramsey will have an outstanding year. All the haters will be riding the bandwagon when he is doing the damn thing. The Kid will have a year like no other. Just wait and see! We will be in the playoffs this year and Ramsey will get us there.

[lrking75]

If Gibbs can win with Rypien, he can win with Ramsey. Ramsey will be a pro bowler next year. Everyone who says that Ramsey hasn't shown any skills or ability doesn't know football. Ask Jimmy Johnson (former Dallas coach) or Sean Salisbury what they think of Ramsey.. Praises him all the time and believes he will be a great QB. I read that someone said that on Campbell's best day is better than Ramsey's best day..lol That is so funny. Then again, thats my point about not knowing football. The kids a rookie, 3rd QB taken, not the 1st. Their is a reason for that. He played with great RB's and a great line. I don't care how fundamentally sound he is, if he throws more int's than td's his first year, alot of you will boo him out of town also like you do Ramsey. Campbell was drafted for the future. Because the redskins organization already know that Ramsey will walk when to contract is up. I don't blame him one bit. If I was him, I would walk too.

[akhhorus]

whoa, whoa, whoa. Did you not see the Giants game last year in which Ramsey went 19 of 22 (with Rod dropping an easy, easy pass)?!? That was a flash of greatness. Did you not see the game in Atlanta a year prior, when Ramsey lead the Redskins back from a huge deficit at halftime? I believe he had 340 plus passing yards and a couple td's. You don't call that a flash of greatness?!? Not to mention, when he throws the ball, he's accurate, has a gun, and when he's on, it's a beautiful thing. I know some folks just aren't too high on Ramsey, and they have bad memories of footballs sailing way over the head of a wide open Laverneaus Coles in the end zone, but to me he has earned this job TWICE now, it's freaking his. He's a vet now, the mistakes will subside. Joe Gibbs has won Super Bowls with lesser-talented QB's (namely Mark Rypien).

That was not a flash of greatness. Portis had 50 yards in the first drive and the Giants defense(which was pathetic at the time) let up over 200 yards rushing. If Ramsey needs those to show a "flash of greatness" he never will be a good QB. That was efficency against a terrible defense. He has shown 3 "flashes" in my book:
02 game in Philly
03 game versus Atlanta(which really shouldn't count since the Atlanta defense was pathetic and their offense couldn't do squat)
first Philly game in 03

He is nothing special, y'all need to take off the B&G colored glasses and look at him honestly. You want to talk about his "great" games, but what about these games?
First Giants game in 04: 9/18 142 yards 1 td 3 INT 3 SACKS 2 Fumbles(55.6 qb rating)
second dallas game in 04: 19/29 158 1 td 2 INT 2 SACKS (62.1 qb rating)
Tampa game in 03: 21/35 211 yards 1 td 2 INt 4 sacks (68.6 qb rating)
New Orleans in 02: 21/43 320 yards 1 TD 4 INT 7 Sacks (42.8 qb rating)
Green Bay in 02: 10/24 135 yards 6 SACKS 5 fumbles (60.2 qb rating)
Pittsburgh in 04: 19/34 138 1 td 1 int 5 Sacks 1 fumble (63.1 qb rating)
Buffalo in 03: 8/25 112 yards 1 td 1 SACK 3 fumbles (60.8 qb rating)

And the rest of his games mostly aren't exactly something to hang your hat on.

[akhhorus]

See, in relative terms, Ramsey's progress is not all that bad....is it?

I would love for him to become a pro bowl qb, but I just haven't seen enough from Ramsey to believe that he ever will. And apparently, Gibbs agrees.

[ChiefPowhatan17]

It should be the year that he has all the tools. But he should have never be benched for Brunell in the first place. Those 9 games would have added to his experience and level as a quarterback. They said that Brunell won the starting job in preseason, but it should've been Ramsey's to lose not to gain. No one won it, so gibbs gave it to Mark. oh well, I just think Ramsey would've had more to work with last season if he had come in earlier, he could have turned the season around, but he didn't get an opportunity till it was too late. Hopefully this is true that his stats say that this is the year.

[redskin_rich]

That was not a flash of greatness. Portis had 50 yards in the first drive and the Giants defense(which was pathetic at the time) let up over 200 yards rushing. If Ramsey needs those to show a "flash of greatness" he never will be a good QB. That was efficency against a terrible defense. He has shown 3 "flashes" in my book:
02 game in Philly
03 game versus Atlanta(which really shouldn't count since the Atlanta defense was pathetic and their offense couldn't do squat)
first Philly game in 03

He is nothing special, y'all need to take off the B&G colored glasses and look at him honestly. You want to talk about his "great" games, but what about these games?
First Giants game in 04: 9/18 142 yards 1 td 3 INT 3 SACKS 2 Fumbles(55.6 qb rating)
second dallas game in 04: 19/29 158 1 td 2 INT 2 SACKS (62.1 qb rating)
Tampa game in 03: 21/35 211 yards 1 td 2 INt 4 sacks (68.6 qb rating)
New Orleans in 02: 21/43 320 yards 1 TD 4 INT 7 Sacks (42.8 qb rating)
Green Bay in 02: 10/24 135 yards 6 SACKS 5 fumbles (60.2 qb rating)
Pittsburgh in 04: 19/34 138 1 td 1 int 5 Sacks 1 fumble (63.1 qb rating)
Buffalo in 03: 8/25 112 yards 1 td 1 SACK 3 fumbles (60.8 qb rating)

And the rest of his games mostly aren't exactly something to hang your hat on.
The way our line played last year and the extremely conservative playcalling makes it hard to judge our offensive players. Portis only had good games last year against bad defenses, does that mean he won't be a great player.

The New Orleans and Green Bay games you put up were his 1st and 2nd start's ever, so I don't put much stock into those.
I'm not going to sit here and say he will be great, I've seen enough to have my doubts but I have also seen enough to think he can run Gibbs system effectively and win.

Here are his stats and the breakdown of games from each year. What you find are good games and bad games, IMO, consistency comes with experience.

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302216
2002 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302216/gamelogs/2002)
2003 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302216/gamelogs/2003)
2004 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302216/gamelogs/2004)

[Ibleedburgundy]

That was not a flash of greatness. Portis had 50 yards in the first drive and the Giants defense(which was pathetic at the time) let up over 200 yards rushing. If Ramsey needs those to show a "flash of greatness" he never will be a good QB. That was efficency against a terrible defense. He has shown 3 "flashes" in my book:
02 game in Philly
03 game versus Atlanta(which really shouldn't count since the Atlanta defense was pathetic and their offense couldn't do squat)
first Philly game in 03

He is nothing special, y'all need to take off the B&G colored glasses and look at him honestly. You want to talk about his "great" games, but what about these games?
First Giants game in 04: 9/18 142 yards 1 td 3 INT 3 SACKS 2 Fumbles(55.6 qb rating)
second dallas game in 04: 19/29 158 1 td 2 INT 2 SACKS (62.1 qb rating)
Tampa game in 03: 21/35 211 yards 1 td 2 INt 4 sacks (68.6 qb rating)
New Orleans in 02: 21/43 320 yards 1 TD 4 INT 7 Sacks (42.8 qb rating)
Green Bay in 02: 10/24 135 yards 6 SACKS 5 fumbles (60.2 qb rating)
Pittsburgh in 04: 19/34 138 1 td 1 int 5 Sacks 1 fumble (63.1 qb rating)
Buffalo in 03: 8/25 112 yards 1 td 1 SACK 3 fumbles (60.8 qb rating)

And the rest of his games mostly aren't exactly something to hang your hat on.

You've cited a lot of games that have extenuating circumstances: The Giants game where the skins were way behind at half time and Ramsey came in unexpectedly, having taken only 10% of the snaps in practice. Or the Tampa Bay game under Spurrier, in which the old ball coach assumed Robert Royal could block Simeon Rice on deep pass plays. Not to mention our idiot recievers running the wrong routes and getting hit in the elbow. So far, Ramsey has played in one offense that had a pathetic offensive line scheme, and another offense straight out of 1992. Gibbs will make some adjustments, add some wrinkles, our improved O-Line will give Ramsey PLENTY of time and that will make all the difference in 2005. Ramsey will have a passer rating above 80 for the season.

[Blind-sided]

Well no matter his stats. Ramsey has to become the leader of this offense. As well as the complete package of field general and take this team into the post season. Starting with winning some games within the NFC east.

[Ibleedburgundy]

akhorus, exactly how good does a QB have to be before we let him actually start for a whole season? It's unlikely that John Elway is gonna walk through that door so you do have to settle for a guy to a degree. Would the Redskins have been better off if they had settled on a QB in the past? Yes. Trent Green was worthy of keeping around, so was Brad Johnson. So is Patrick Ramsey.

[ShaggySkins]

The way our line played last year and the extremely conservative playcalling makes it hard to judge our offensive players. Portis only had good games last year against bad defenses, does that mean he won't be a great player.

Portis has proven himself to be a pro bowler, Ramsey has yet to prove himself thats the difference between those 2.


The New Orleans and Green Bay games you put up were his 1st and 2nd start's ever, so I don't put much stock into those.
I'm not going to sit here and say he will be great, I've seen enough to have my doubts but I have also seen enough to think he can run Gibbs system effectively and win.

Yet many of you can point to the Titans as him showing Greatness when it was his first ever time in a game?


Here are his stats and the breakdown of games from each year. What you find are good games and bad games, IMO, consistency comes with experience.

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302216
2002 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302216/gamelogs/2002)
2003 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302216/gamelogs/2003)
2004 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302216/gamelogs/2004)

I think we can agree on this he shows A LOT of inconsistency. Last year was his 3rd year as a starter and he still showed that he at times will make very boneheaded plays. I hope your right and I hope this is the year he turns it around but I seriously have my doubts. He did not respond well to competition last year when Brunell was brought in and really struggled through the preseason. This year Campbell is in and I honestly expect him to struggle again with someone breathing down his neck.

[silverspring]

I would love for him to become a pro bowl qb, but I just haven't seen enough from Ramsey to believe that he ever will. And apparently, Gibbs agrees.

I would love to have a favre at the helm but the fact is we don't need a favre. QB is important but it is just one player on the team. The problem with the skins is we never develop a team. We are constantly searching for the quick fix. Instead we need to develop a system where even average qbs can win games. If gibbs and you really think that switching the qb position out will solve all our troubles than it is the wrong attitude. Our offense needs to be able to function without a favre at the helm. I would rather have a bunch of good players and a great team than a couple great players. Ramsey is not the problem.

[ryflan47]

Geez, Akh mopped the floor with COUNCILMAN in this thread!

[1994softtail]

In all reality, its no longer Spurrior, the OL, The recievers, Its Ramsey.
This year is the reality of Ramseys skills, no more excusses, no more shifting the blame, Its put up or shut up.
We as Redskins fans Know, its crunch time, and we can only hope he is the QB we all invision.

[portis2endzone]

In all reality, its no longer Spurrior, the OL, The recievers, Its Ramsey.
This year is the reality of Ramseys skills, no more excusses, no more shifting the blame, Its put up or shut up.
We as Redskins fans Know, its crunch time, and we can only hope he is the QB we all invision.
yep there are no more excuses for him. hes got to get the job done.

[colkurtz]

Ramsey had the fifth worst QB rating in 2004. He is pretty immobile, can't read defenses that well and stares too much at one guy, or goes to the dumpoff right away.

Having said that, this is Ramsey's season - the whole season. Unless he is hurt he'll get the entire year to prove himself. The OL is much more solid. Portis will be running tandem with Betts. The WR group is much more consistent and won't drop as many passes. Gibbs playcalling will improve [how much remains to be seen]. I see many more long passes this season. They'll use the shotgun.

Now it's up to him to prove he is the future QB, with a solid backup (eventually) with Campbell;.............................or.......... .............

Show what many of us suspect, which is that he won't be much above a journeyman QB wandering the NFL, after he is traded. Hope I'm wrong.

[COUNCILMAN]

as i sit here in my redskin PJs i have to wonder am i the only one who thinks Ramsey is gonna do just as well as the whole. I just dont think he is able to carry a team the way Vick is. IMO if you believe Ramsey will be better you have to believe the team as a whole is better.

Well, since you bring it up.......actually Patrick the QB carries a team BETTER than Michael Vick the QB. No Patrick can't run the ball for a first down like Vick can...but this is about his quarterbacking ability. Plus, once again we have somebody comparing a seasoned veteran to Patrick Ramsey since Michael Vick has ALREADY completed his 4th year...and as I keep stating to no avail...this thread is a prediction about Patrick's FOURTH year which hasn't happened yet.

Patrick has thrown 33 TD passes in only 3 years and Vick has thrown 36 TD passes in FOUR years. Patrick's TD/start ratio is much higher than Michael Vick. Patrick is 1.4 and Michael is 1.0. So maybe when you talk about carrying a team, you need to stop believing the media hype about Michael Vick and start just believing that Patrick is a BETTER QB than Michael Vick.

Vick is nothing but a fast running back who is a media darling and Patrick Ramsey is a QB who is being crucified for not performing with a different system and different coach every year.

[Meatsnack]

Well, since you bring it up.......actually Patrick the QB carries a team BETTER than Michael Vick the QB. No Patrick can't run the ball for a first down like Vick can...but this is about his quarterbacking ability. Plus, once again we have somebody comparing a seasoned veteran to Patrick Ramsey since Michael Vick has ALREADY completed his 4th year...and as I keep stating to no avail...this thread is a prediction about Patrick's FOURTH year which hasn't happened yet.

Patrick has thrown 33 TD passes in only 3 years and Vick has thrown 36 TD passes in FOUR years. Patrick's TD/start ratio is much higher than Michael Vick. Patrick is 1.4 and Michael is 1.0. So maybe when you talk about carrying a team, you need to stop believing the media hype about Michael Vick and start just believing that Patrick is a BETTER QB than Michael Vick.

Vick is nothing but a fast running back who is a media darling and Patrick Ramsey is a QB who is being crucified for not performing with a different system and different coach every year.I largely agree with the sentiment here, that 1) Ron Mexico is overrated and 2) he is a jaw-dropping athlete but so-so QB.

But...I wouldn't get carried away by the stats, either. Vick must, IMO, win a head-to-head comparison with Ramsey because of two factors:
1) he has led his team to the playoffs - and -
2) his athleticism allows all sorts of non-passing exploitation of a defense because of the fear he engenders. Teams defend Atlanta differently than any other team because of Vick.

With that said, I am a Ramsey believer. I think the guy has the work ethic and necessary QB skills to get it done. he certainly has the arm. If he can ever learn how to put some air under his throws to make them more catchable, he could really be something.

In the end, Ramsey will only improve with games played. The games he missed last season really stunted his professional growth. If he had come on in game 6 last year instead of game 11, we could have maybe done some things. But, we will never know. Ramsey isn't coming off crutches this off-season and will have all Summer and TC to come to grips with his new receiving corp. Since Ram loves to throw deep, his new WRs should suit him. I certainly wish him the best, for all our sakes.

[COUNCILMAN]

DR. Doom? You can be more creative than that. You're the one who has been screaming about the demise of the Skins because they don't have a pass rush, dont have a reggie white-esque DE, don't have a #1 wideout, don't have you as GM. I just point out how you mislead people and use selective and wrong facts, thats not a "cubicle of negativity", that reality. Maybe if you actually debating when someone points out your crap, instead of running away which is what you always do. You have never debated an issue after someone brings up an obvious factual flaw in your argument. There's a word for someone like that.

So you believe that TD to game ratio is the best indicator of a QBs ability and nothing else matters? And Ramsey's TDs to game ratio is comparable to the great QBs of today?

Ramsey: first 29 games/33 TDs
Peyton Manning: first 29 games/52 TDs
McNabb: first 29 games/31 TDs+6 tds rushing
Culpepper: first 29 games/ 48 TDs
Brady: first 29 games/42 TDs
Aaron Brooks: first 29 games/45 TDs
Marc Bulger: first 29 games/44 TDs
Carr: first 29 games/18 TDs
Carson Palmer: 13 games/18 TDs
McNair: first 29 games/23 tds+10 tds rushing(but a lot less picks than Ramsey has and a better Qb rating)
Delhomme: first 29 games/31 Tds
Trent Green: first 29 games/34 Tds

It doesnt look like Ramsey is even in the the same ballpark as the good and decent QBs at this point of their careers. Your comparison is wishful thinking. Delhomme and Trent Green are the best comparisons, but Green ripped off
100 more TDs since then(and showed much more by this point of his career than Ramsey). Delhomme ripped off 17 TDs in the next 9 games after his first 29, do you see Ramsey doing that in his next 9 games?
And i would bet that Yards per attempt is seen as a better indication of a QB's proficiency. And Ramsey's(6.42) is pretty low:
Manning: 7.59
Culpepper: 7.78
McNabb: 8.26 in 04
Favre: 7.1
Delhomme: 7.25
Brady: 7.79 in 04
Trent Green: 7.66
Matt Hasselback: 7.1

Considering the accuracy of your usual predictions, Ramsey is destined for a terrible season and career.

So, since I've pointed out some facts that completely contradict your argument, now its time for you to ignore this thread?


This guy Dr. Doom, akorrus, is a piece of work! He is actually comparing Brett Favre's career numbers to Patrick Ramsey after 3 years. This guy is so frustrated he can't make his point, that he is forced into using absurd situations and reaching deep into the future to pull out HOF quarterbacks to compare Ramsey to, just so he can say "see...Ramsey sucks, and I proved it".

Well just for the record guy....Patrick Ramsey looks as good as Favre for the FIRST THREE YEARS in their respective careers.

Brett Favre in his first 3 NFL years threw 37 TD's and 39 int's. Patrick has thrown LESS int's than he has TD's, and thats something not even Brett Favre could do. Plus, Brett played his 3rd season in the same system for 2 years in a row...Patrick began his 3rd season in yet another system.

If you want to compare Patrick to Brett I'll take that bet. But we're not going to compare a 15 year career with Brett playing in the same system to Patrick who starts over every single year. I'll be glad to compare this years Patrick Ramsey with Brett FAVRE's 4th season in the NFL because this is Patricks FOURTH season in the NFL.

You are good at trying to compare apples and oranges in order to make your point but this time everyone can see right through you. Brett Favre played his 3rd season and 4th season in the same system....so lets allow Patrick the decency to let him play his 4th year in the same system before we start comparing him to a HOF quarterback.

I love the stat when you pull out 7.1 yds/pass for Brett Favre and compare it to Patrick...considering that 7.1 represents Favre CAREER numbers. If you want to compare Brett's first 3 year numbers....Brett had 6.5 per pass. Thats a lot different. And as far as the most important number...TD's per start...well actually Patrick BEATS Favre. Patrick is throwing at 1.4 during his first 3 seasons...and Brett was actually at 1.3 But maybe we're not being fair to Brett...since we should be comparing 4th year numbers after Patrick is in the same system for 2 years in a row.

You shouldn't make yourself look silly by comparing all these other career number to a kid who has YET to play in his 4th season. You keep saying over and over that Patrick has shown nothing and he is in his 4th year....WRONG!

Patrick has shown you nothing apparently...but thats in THREE years. We haven't played a down in year FOUR. So we are not yet in his FOURTH year. If after this season Patrick doesn't put up your, quote...."spectacular" numbers...then okay we can discuss it and talk about it. But you need to wake up and stop comparing Patrick to HOF quarterbacks and stop telling us that Patrick has shown you nothing in his FOURTH year. Patrick hasn't played in his FOURTH season yet. Hold on to your complaining about Patrick until AFTER his 4th season Dr. Doom.

[gbalzac]

Patrick has shown you nothing apparently...but thats in THREE years. We haven't played a down in year FOUR. So we are not yet in his FOURTH year. If after this season Patrick doesn't put up your, quote...."spectacular" numbers...then okay we can discuss it and talk about it. But you need to wake up and stop comparing Patrick to HOF quarterbacks and stop telling us that Patrick has shown you nothing in his FOURTH year. Patrick hasn't played in his FOURTH season yet. Hold on to your complaining about Patrick until AFTER his 4th season Dr. Doom.


good post...I agree we need to see what he does in his 2nd season in the same system before being overly critical.

[COUNCILMAN]

good post...I agree we need to see what he does in his 2nd season in the same system before being overly critical.

Somethng else we might want to consider is the fact that Patrick did not start until week 10 last year and even then we asked him to face the 2 stingiest defenses in the National football league..Philly and Blitzburg.

We are starting 2005 off by playing a home game against Chicago and that will allow Patrick to show us immediately whether or not he has become a complete QB. Chicago may not be a strong team on offense but they have a defensive coach and some major players on the defensive side of the ball.

Then we go to Dallas to face that revamped 3-4 defense and Patrick will have to face a hostile sold out crowd in Texas. I don't think we will have to wait more than week TWO in order to evaluate if Patrick has shown improvement and can be "spectacular".

[ShaggySkins]

We are starting 2005 off by playing a home game against Chicago and that will allow Patrick to show us immediately whether or not he has become a complete QB. Chicago may not be a strong team on offense but they have a defensive coach and some major players on the defensive side of the ball.

Then we go to Dallas to face that revamped 3-4 defense and Patrick will have to face a hostile sold out crowd in Texas. I don't think we will have to wait more than week TWO in order to evaluate if Patrick has shown improvement and can be "spectacular".

It will be earlier then week 1 to see if Patrick has changed. He has to come in during the preseason and show he has learned the offense and improved. Last year in the preseason with the competition from Brunell he buckled. He played horribly and that was one of the biggest reasons he had to wait until midseason to see the field.

[COUNCILMAN]

It will be earlier then week 1 to see if Patrick has changed. He has to come in during the preseason and show he has learned the offense and improved. Last year in the preseason with the competition from Brunell he buckled. He played horribly and that was one of the biggest reasons he had to wait until midseason to see the field.

I agree with you that Patrick certainly has to win the job in pre season and look good...in fact he has to stay healthy and has to do a lot of things. BUT, what I was referring to when I mentioned the Chicago and Dallas games is the fact that no matter how well he performs in camp and pre season Dr. Doom and his alliance will always cite pre season games as meaningless or as practice and that they don't count. And I agree.

We really can only guage Patricks career by how well he performs in regular season, and certainly not by the accomplishment that he beats out Mark Brunell. I am also convinced that with all the new receivers and the competition going on at running back, we probaby won't see the real Patrick Ramsey until Gibbs opens up the full playbook. But I do agree that we will at least need to see "improvement" in Patrick's medium range passing, and in finding receivers, in preseason.

Let the competition begin.

[skinsfan36]

patrick has speed recievers now and with a better line,portis will run better and take pressure off ramsey and he will use his strong arm to get the ball downfield to tj/moss/patten. we know this guy has a strong arm and can throw a good deep ball and if we get ahead portis will eat the clock and then everyone knows how well our defense plays sso if he doesnt succeed soon he will probably be traded for a mid round pick and then the campbell pick would make sense.

[redskin_rich]

Portis has proven himself to be a pro bowler, Ramsey has yet to prove himself thats the difference between those 2.
That was the point of my statement, that Portis is a pro bowler yet he had an off year because of the problems with the offense. Shouldn't Patrick, being nowhere close to a pro bowler get the same leniance?


Yet many of you can point to the Titans as him showing Greatness when it was his first ever time in a game?
I don't use anything from his rookie year as a reference to what he could be. The only thing I saw his first year was that he is not afraid to take a hit and he has a strong arm.


I think we can agree on this he shows A LOT of inconsistency. Last year was his 3rd year as a starter and he still showed that he at times will make very boneheaded plays. I hope your right and I hope this is the year he turns it around but I seriously have my doubts. He did not respond well to competition last year when Brunell was brought in and really struggled through the preseason. This year Campbell is in and I honestly expect him to struggle again with someone breathing down his neck.
We are in total agreement here but I will give him the benefit of the doubt and I am crossing my fingers because I want something we have not had in a long time at the most important position on the team...Stability.

[akhhorus]

This guy Dr. Doom, akorrus, is a piece of work! He is actually comparing Brett Favre's career numbers to Patrick Ramsey after 3 years. This guy is so frustrated he can't make his point, that he is forced into using absurd situations and reaching deep into the future to pull out HOF quarterbacks to compare Ramsey to, just so he can say "see...Ramsey sucks, and I proved it".

ZZZZZZZZZZZ. I'm so "frustrated" that I cant make a point? Your initial post skewed stats so it would fit into your ridiculous idea. Ramsey has played 29 games(You only want to talk about 23 of them), you quote Culpepper's first 27. Brady's first 30, McNabb's first 38, Plummer's first 36, McNair's first 22, Carr's first 43. You are starting this by only picking and choosing the stats you want to make your point. I should have known, the truth is something you avoid at all costs.

Well just for the record guy....Patrick Ramsey looks as good as Favre for the FIRST THREE YEARS in their respective careers.

Ramsey first 3 years: 5300 yards, 38 Td/29 Ints
Favre(91 doesnt count, he played in 2 games): 10,400 yards 70 Tds/51
Favre(if you count 91): 5700 yards 37 td/39 INTs
Favre's record as a player 91-93: 19-15.
Ramsey's record as a player 02-04: 10-19.

Care to revise your statement here Real Rick?

Brett Favre in his first 3 NFL years threw 37 TD's and 39 int's. Patrick has thrown LESS int's than he has TD's, and thats something not even Brett Favre could do. Plus, Brett played his 3rd season in the same system for 2 years in a row...Patrick began his 3rd season in yet another system.

See the above stats, care to revise this statement as well?

If you want to compare Patrick to Brett I'll take that bet. But we're not going to compare a 15 year career with Brett playing in the same system to Patrick who starts over every single year. I'll be glad to compare this years Patrick Ramsey with Brett FAVRE's 4th season in the NFL because this is Patricks FOURTH season in the NFL.

More than happy to:
Ramsey first 3 years: 5300 yards, 38 Td/29 Ints
Favre(91 doesnt count, he played in 2 games): 10,400 yards 70 Tds/51
Favre(if you count 91): 5700 yards 37 td/39 INTs

Favre's record as a player 91-93: 19-15.
Ramsey's record as a player 02-04: 10-19.

You are good at trying to compare apples and oranges in order to make your point but this time everyone can see right through you.

As opposed to your picking and choosing stats and facts to prove your point? I gave the full stats, you didn't. Probably because they don't support your argument.

Brett Favre played his 3rd season and 4th season in the same system....so lets allow Patrick the decency to let him play his 4th year in the same system before we start comparing him to a HOF quarterback.

Oh, so it's the system's fault than Ramsey hasnt shown how great he is. Portis played in a terrible system for his talents, and was excluded from whole games due to the play calling. He still had 1300 yards. Blaming the system is ridiculous.

I love the stat when you pull out 7.1 yds/pass for Brett Favre and compare it to Patrick...considering that 7.1 represents Favre CAREER numbers. If you want to compare Brett's first 3 year numbers....Brett had 6.5 per pass. Thats a lot different. And as far as the most important number...TD's per start...well actually Patrick BEATS Favre. Patrick is throwing at 1.4 during his first 3 seasons...and Brett was actually at 1.3 But maybe we're not being fair to Brett...since we should be comparing 4th year numbers after Patrick is in the same system for 2 years in a row.

Oh, so in your one stat that you want to discuss, Favre does better? TDs per start. How about wins, yards, completion percentage, QB rating, 300 yard games, playoff appearances....but you don't want to discuss those because they make Ramsey not look like the great player you claim he is.

You shouldn't make yourself look silly by comparing all these other career number to a kid who has YET to play in his 4th season. You keep saying over and over that Patrick has shown nothing and he is in his 4th year....WRONG!

So, in your myopic world, I shouldn't compare his numbers at this point in his career to the other career numbers, when that's exactly what YOU did to start this thread? You make some stupid statements here Rick, but that takes the cake.

Patrick has shown you nothing apparently...but thats in THREE years. We haven't played a down in year FOUR. So we are not yet in his FOURTH year.

And water is wet. So, why isn't Ladell Betts being given a shot at Portis' job? He hasn't shown anything in his 3 seasons yet, but he has yet to play a down in his fourth year?


If after this season Patrick doesn't put up your, quote...."spectacular" numbers...then okay we can discuss it and talk about it. But you need to wake up and stop comparing Patrick to HOF quarterbacks and stop telling us that Patrick has shown you nothing in his FOURTH year. Patrick hasn't played in his FOURTH season yet. Hold on to your complaining about Patrick until AFTER his 4th season Dr. Doom.

I havent made one complaint about Ramsey's fourth season. My contention, which was obviously too complicated for you, was that I haven't seen from Ramsey any hope that he will become this Pro Bowl QB that you describe. With your skewed stats and ridiculous statements, and your usually patently wrong predictions, I don't see it happening.

[GoSkins!36]

Ramsey doesn't need to be great this year, why are we gonna compare him to Payton Manning or Brett Favre, he will never be as good as those guys, those two are HOF's, all Ramsey needs to be is average and he can take our TEAM a long way, if his QB rating is inbetween 10-16 of the top QB's i believe we will have a very successful year. He doesn't need to be great and throw 30 td passes or run 60 yards for a td. He just needs to run Gibbs offense correctly and effectively. We should not be talking about Ramsey's numbers and talents and compare them to Payton's and Favre's. and why is everybody makin a big deal about his mobility, look at Tom Brady, you dont consider him a mobile QB, Patrick just needs to know how to slide in the pocket like Brady can and he'l be ok. Ramsey's QB rating should be about 80 and throw around 20td's this year and around 12ints, those aren't Pro Bowl numbers but are solid and can be a playoff QB w/those.

[COUNCILMAN]

Well Dr. Doom has once again proven he is incapable of facing the facts and is only out to argue...period.

Whats with the "zzzzzzzzzzz"...and the "water is wet"....??? Why don't you try to stay on topic and be grown up.

Just for the record, everyone can now see how silly you are. That point you made about "Favre's first year doesn't count"...thats a good one. Yea..go ahead and pick and choose facts and figures and certain years when you compare QB's. Thats a good one. So Brett Favres 2nd, 3rd, and 4th years in the NFL...playing for the same coach in the same system.... count against Ramsey's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd years in the NFL playing for different coaches in different systems.

How come Patrick's first year doesn't count since he got into camp late? How come his 2nd year doesn't count since he was playing with a broken foot? How come his 3rd year doesn't count since he sat for 9 games and then started against Philly and Pittsburg? You simply can't judge talent even when it is right in front of you and your hatred of me has blinded your ability to see Ramsey's ability.


Like I said guys...Dr. Doom is a piece of work!

[ryflan47]

Well Dr. Doom has once again proven he is incapable of facing the facts and is only out to argue...period.

Whats with the "zzzzzzzzzzz"...and the "water is wet"....??? Why don't you try to stay on topic and be grown up.

Just for the record, everyone can now see how silly you are. That point you made about "Favre's first year doesn't count"...thats a good one. Yea..go ahead and pick and choose facts and figures and certain years when you compare QB's. Thats a good one. So Brett Favres 2nd, 3rd, and 4th years in the NFL...playing for the same coach in the same system.... count against Ramsey's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd years in the NFL playing for different coaches in different systems.

How come Patrick's first year doesn't count since he got into camp late? How come his 2nd year doesn't count since he was playing with a broken foot? How come his 3rd year doesn't count since he sat for 9 games and then started against Philly and Pittsburg? You simply can't judge talent even when it is right in front of you and your hatred of me has blinded your ability to see Ramsey's ability.


Like I said guys...Dr. Doom is a piece of work!

Well sorry, RICK. I agree with akh. In fact, YOU compared apples and oranges. You compared Ramsey's games with Favre's games and with Carr's games, which were an uneven amount of games. No hard feelings.

[akhhorus]

Well Dr. Doom has once again proven he is incapable of facing the facts and is only out to argue...period.

Really, how so? Please be specific. I have done nothing but debate the facts. You seem to want to avoid them.

Whats with the "zzzzzzzzzzz"...and the "water is wet"....??? Why don't you try to stay on topic and be grown up.

Again, avoiding the issue and not styaing on topic on your part.

Just for the record, everyone can now see how silly you are. That point you made about "Favre's first year doesn't count"...thats a good one. Yea..go ahead and pick and choose facts and figures and certain years when you compare QB's.

And yet, I included Favre counting in 1991 season in my post. You, on the other hand, skewed the other Qbs game totals until you had a number that would prove your point. I'm sure if I specifically picked out a couple of Emmitt Smith's games, I can make Trung Candidate's stats look like he's the next Emmitt. And Favre's 1991 season, where he played in 2 games, throwing 5 passes. How is that a good barometer of his talent? Ramsey has never had a season like that, and including in Favre's tally is unfair to Favre. Ramsey has never played in less than 9 games in a season, so Favre first three seasons where he played more than 9 games is a fair comparison. And Favre mops the floor with Ramsey. But, you doon't want to talk facts, you just want to say your usual drivel about how you're right about everything.

Thats a good one. So Brett Favres 2nd, 3rd, and 4th years in the NFL...playing for the same coach in the same system.... count against Ramsey's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd years in the NFL playing for different coaches in different systems.

Well, actually it was two different systems in 3 years, and yes, Favre had Holmgren. So, we give Ramsey a free pass on his lack of stats because he had two different systems? Thats a bad argument. Good Qbs will look good, even if they play for a bad coach. Average to bad players will look how their system looks. Brad Johnson is the best example of that.

How come Patrick's first year doesn't count since he got into camp late? How come his 2nd year doesn't count since he was playing with a broken foot? How come his 3rd year doesn't count since he sat for 9 games and then started against Philly and Pittsburg? You simply can't judge talent even when it is right in front of you and your hatred of me has blinded your ability to see Ramsey's ability.

So, because of all the reasons/excuses you give, Ramsey should be held up as a great talent? How about the fact that he has no consistancy when he plays. How about taking off the Burgundy and Gold glasses and seeing him for what he is. Far from a Pro Bowl QB. You act like he's Dan Marino, when he's closer to Joey Harrington. And no amount of fact twisting on your part will ever make him Marino.

And frankly, I don't care about you REAL RICK. Other people PM me whenever you do your usual condenscending and factual wrong crap; and I look forward to your posts because its always easy to find the giant flaw in your post and the easily available facts that totally contradict your argument. Even more entertaining is the fact that you run like a little girl whenever they are shown. I pray that they never ban you here because you make all the other bad posters here look good and you're a great example to the new posters of how not to act on a message board.

Like I said guys...Dr. Doom is a piece of work!

Thats rich. Maybe you should re-read your posts as COUNCILMAN and before as REAL RICK. You're a Chicken Little always screaming how the Skins are screwed because they didn't do your master plan.

Oh, and by the way, you chose to ignore Favre vs. Ramsey in record. Wonder why. Would this be the same reason you chose to ignore when I pointed out your statement: "The skins will not draft a QB with the 25th pick"?

[akhhorus]

And can everyone agree:
If Ramsey doesn't perform well this season, he's definitely not the QB of the future for the skins?

[redskin_rich]

And can everyone agree:
If Ramsey doesn't perform well this season, he's definitely not the QB of the future for the skins?
Absolutely, even those of us that think Ramsey can be a decent QB know that if it doesn't happen this year, it ain't gonna happen.

[Skinz4lyfe]

Absolutely, even those of us that think Ramsey can be a decent QB know that if it doesn't happen this year, it ain't gonna happen.

That's probably the most credible statement someone has made in this debate. IMO, he's lost some confidence along the way but Gibbs scaling down the playbook was actually an attempt to rebuild his confidence. I truly believe he can be an all-pro QB but I've come to the realization that it probably won't happen in DC. As much as I like and respect him, the best thing for Ramsey may be to get out of DC.

[akhhorus]

Absolutely, even those of us that think Ramsey can be a decent QB know that if it doesn't happen this year, it ain't gonna happen.

And I think people should ask themselves this question:
If Gibbs believed that there was even a fair chance that Ramsey would blossom into the player than REAL RICK believes he is/can be; why did he give up a future first rounder for Jason Campbell. Why would he do that, if he saw enough in Ramsey to make him believe that there was even an iffy chance of Ramsey becoming a good player?

[STaylor36boom]

What if this pushes Ramsey as Rivers did Brees and Ramsey opts out?
Do we have a young qb in Campbell that can stand tall in the pocket with nice mobility and a great ability to lead the incumbent speedy receivers and throw mid range laser beams, a known awesome team guy as well as a draft pick for Ramsey if he has a good year and signs elsewhere?

[akhhorus]

What if this pushes Ramsey as Rivers did Brees and Ramsey opts out?
Do we have a young qb in Campbell that can stand tall in the pocket with nice mobility and a great ability to lead the incumbent speedy receivers and throw mid range laser beams, a known awesome team guy as well as a draft pick for Ramsey if he has a good year and signs elsewhere?

Well, I believe Ramsey is locked in until after the 06 season, so he's not going anywhere. That gives you a year to decide what to do, and see if--if Ramsey has a great year in 05--it was a fluke.

[redskin_rich]

And I think people should ask themselves this question:
If Gibbs believed that there was even a fair chance that Ramsey would blossom into the player than REAL RICK believes he is/can be; why did he give up a future first rounder for Jason Campbell. Why would he do that, if he saw enough in Ramsey to make him believe that there was even an iffy chance of Ramsey becoming a good player?
I understand what you're saying and it was the first thought that crossed my mind when Campbell was drafted.
I also see that after this year Brunell is most likely gone, Ramsey will be in a contract year and we likely won't be in a position to draft a QB that is as good as Campbell. Also Gibbs likes to have his young QB's sit a year or two and learn and this was his best oppurtunity to have that scenario.
I don't think Gibbs has no faith in Ramsey, if he did, he would have traded him already.

[silverspring]

That's probably the most credible statement someone has made in this debate. IMO, he's lost some confidence along the way but Gibbs scaling down the playbook was actually an attempt to rebuild his confidence. I truly believe he can be an all-pro QB but I've come to the realization that it probably won't happen in DC. As much as I like and respect him, the best thing for Ramsey may be to get out of DC.

Good point. I think his confidence has been destroyed from being a tackling dummy in the fun n' gun to gibbs undermining him 2 years in a row by bringing in someone else. i think he has a serious confidence problem. Who wouldn't? If he can overcome that and become successful as a redskins with all those cards stacked against him it will be quite impressive. A fresh start might in fact be the best thing for him, but I would love to see him succeed here.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

starting for joe gibbs is the best thing that could for patrick ramsey right now because he wont have to be the man on offense (that title belongs to clinton portis and his back ups). he now needs to learn how to make some of the throws he has had trouble with since his rookie year and manage the game. if we can get the running game up to where it needs to be, patrick wont be asked to win games for us. we all know by now that patrick does not really thrive under pressure. just look at his years with the skins. he had an awful preseason last season because he had the pressure to win the starting job. in his first action as a rookie against tennesse, he played brilliantly because there was no pressure on him. plus, he tends to make some iffy decisions during games when the skins need a score. if he cant do manage the offense this season, IMO, he is as good as gone.

[darksome]

After reviewing a number of successful QB's and highly drafted QB's and comparing their first 3 seasons to Patrick, I have come to the conclusion that year #4 should be a playoff year for the Redskins. This is based upon the success or failure comparisons to other QB's during their first THREE years as a STARTER....and I have found that the TD to Games/Started ratio seems to be a key for successful QB's.

I for one, think this is a very good example of why stats should be thrown out the window. But I am sure Mr. Harrington in Detroit will find some measure of happiness in your futile findings: 46 -48 - 50 - 0.95

I think your math puts "The Captain" right up there for MVP. He better hope you are right. His future depends on it!!!

[darksome]

And I think people should ask themselves this question:
If Gibbs believed that there was even a fair chance that Ramsey would blossom into the player than REAL RICK believes he is/can be; why did he give up a future first rounder for Jason Campbell. Why would he do that, if he saw enough in Ramsey to make him believe that there was even an iffy chance of Ramsey becoming a good player?

That assessment is right on the money! Too bad other people can't see that in this forum. It would increase the longevity of their "fine manipulation" (keyboard typing).

[Meatsnack]

And I think people should ask themselves this question:
If Gibbs believed that there was even a fair chance that Ramsey would blossom into the player than REAL RICK believes he is/can be; why did he give up a future first rounder for Jason Campbell. Why would he do that, if he saw enough in Ramsey to make him believe that there was even an iffy chance of Ramsey becoming a good player?

You could certainly read it as a vote of no confidence. I can't explain the pick in any rational terms at all, even if Gibbs did think Ramsey was nothing more than a stop-gap QB. I would rather view it as a belt and suspenders approach to the QB position. Gibbs has learned to like having a QB in the stable who can step in and play because he has had to resort to back-ups so much during the season. Between injury (Theisman), personality disorder (Shroeder), or too little tread on the tires (Williams or Brunell), he has had to make some moves in-season. Since Hasselback and Brunnell are/were known quantities, he chose to draft a guy he thought could lead the team if it became necessary. Given that Gibbs has put Ramsey in the drivers seat and has not let in any inkling of a competition at the QB position going into camp, I would suspect that Campbell is the Plan when Brunnell is released next off-season.

No one has ever figured out who will definitely be a great QB in the NFL. If they had, San Diego wouldn't have ended up with Brees starting and a top 5 draft pick riding the pine. Ryan Leaf wouldn't be living large on a tropical island somewhere as a comfortably well-off beach bum. Heck, I wouldn't have been so desperate for us to draft Heath Shuler. ;) I certainly hope Coach is right about Campbell, because if he is the second coming of Elway no one will be happier than me (except maybe Campbell agent).

[aprius]

I look at Ramsey like I look at Testaverde.
Testaverde didnt impress anyone for about 8 years or so and he was supposed to be a great pro right out of college. He didnt get alot of snaps to start off with and he kept having new QB's brought in undermining his development and he had a really strong arm when he first came out and tried to rely on it.
He became a team leader and SB QB when he dropped his reliance on his arm and learned a bit of finesse.
Testaverde wont make the HOF but for several years he was a very good QB.
Ramsey will have the same type of career if someone gives him the chance and teaches him how to finesse the ball instead of slamming it into someones chest, not to overthrow the receiver and when to take a sack or throw the ball away.

[darksome]

I look at Ramsey like I look at Testaverde.
Testaverde didnt impress anyone for about 8 years or so and he was supposed to be a great pro right out of college. He didnt get alot of snaps to start off with and he kept having new QB's brought in undermining his development and he had a really strong arm when he first came out and tried to rely on it.
He became a team leader and SB QB when he dropped his reliance on his arm and learned a bit of finesse.
Testaverde wont make the HOF but for several years he was a very good QB.
Ramsey will have the same type of career if someone gives him the chance and teaches him how to finesse the ball instead of slamming it into someones chest, not to overthrow the receiver and when to take a sack or throw the ball away.

See, that is the thing that bothers me the most about this whole Ramsey issue. Since when is it a bad thing to have talent looking over your shoulder? That is called competition! Ramsey would not be driven by a subpar QB. Who the heck is going to believe that Gibbs would take him out for Babe Laufenberg or Heath Shuler? No, Ramsey is in a leadership position. And sometimes our leaders are baptized in fire. The whole kid gloves because he is young idea sucks because to me, it stunts his growth. Knowing that you have to bring it every day is a helluva driving force to excel both today AND tomorrow, versus resting on your past laurels. Ramsey has not given us anything consistently.

Now, you may think that is because we have a revolving door policy as far as regimes are concerned. Can you argue that while Lavar has not been a consistently spectacular player, he has been consistent in his growth despite "will our real D-Cord please stand up" year after year? Do you think that if they brought in a viable option at LB in his spot, that he would lay down on the job? It is about competition. Go to Redskins.com and check out the video interview that Gibbs did regarding the subject. That says it all. A lot of good he would do us at QB anyway if he can't handle a rookie looking over his shoulder! When they snap the ball, about 90,000 people will be doing just that every game! Not to mention the LBs and DEs coming for his head!

[RedskinsVision]

we all want Ramsey to succeed and become our next D. Williams or M. Rypien. but to go by what we've seen thus far doesn't lead us to believe that. he's 10-19 as a starter.. the team hasn't improved in his first 3 years (not all his fault and Gibbs is righting the ship) and he's been inconsistent. we'll find out this year if his cannon can find a slower speed for those touch passes, if he's improved his footwork enough to run Gibbs' multiple rollouts, if he can scan the field instead of fixating on one guy.

[Meatsnack]

See, that is the thing that bothers me the most about this whole Ramsey issue. Since when is it a bad thing to have talent looking over your shoulder? That is called competition! Ramsey would not be driven by a subpar QB. Who the heck is going to believe that Gibbs would take him out for Babe Laufenberg or Heath Shuler? No, Ramsey is in a leadership position. And sometimes our leaders are baptized in fire. The whole kid gloves because he is young idea sucks because to me, it stunts his growth. Knowing that you have to bring it every day is a helluva driving force to excel both today AND tomorrow, versus resting on your past laurels. Ramsey has not given us anything consistently.

Now, you may think that is because we have a revolving door policy as far as regimes are concerned. Can you argue that while Lavar has not been a consistently spectacular player, he has been consistent in his growth despite "will our real D-Cord please stand up" year after year?
I agree that competition is good. However, the QB position is an exception to the rule and every coach will tell you that. There is no way a team with an established QB brings in "competition". They bring in "back-ups" who know their role. We don't have an established QB, so I think that, having spent a lot to get the young Mr. Campbell, it will be good to see what he can do.

As to LaVar, I would argue strenuously that he has not progressed consistently every year. He has improved somewhat, but if he were getting that much better every year, I doubt they would have moved him from the Sam where he played under Marty and Marvin. Frankly, LaVar was too impetuous during Marvin's stay here to milk Coach Lewis for what he was worth. He has pouted about being asked to do things outside his college comfort zone - that is, he has specifically resisted opportunities to grow professionally.

I really believe that LaVar is a nice man. I also believe that he is a physiological freak who makes the game change around him, ala Ron Mexico. I do not believe that he has maximized his talent by learning his plays, playing with discipline, or being a team leader. He has poor impulse control and a need to talk. With any luck, his continuing maturation process (and, yes, I acknowledge again, there has been one) combined with the stellar coaching he will get under GW and staff, will show us the LaVar that could be. That is some scary junk.

[The Iceman]

the fact is this.... Ramsey has been set up for failure his entire pro career.. this year it is finally different.. he will get most of the snaps in training camp. he will be the man leading the team.. he will get protection. he will have a running game. he will have a solid defense , and most of all HE WILL HAVE THE SAME OFFENSE two years in a row. thanks

[NamVet4]

Ramsey would not be driven by a subpar QB. Who the heck is going to believe that Gibbs would take him out for Babe Laufenberg...


Uh Oh...... :( Somebody gonna git a whoopin with the rolling pin!!!! When you know who reads you know what !!!!!!!!!!


;)

[darksome]

I agree that competition is good. However, the QB position is an exception to the rule and every coach will tell you that. There is no way a team with an established QB brings in "competition". They bring in "back-ups" who know their role. We don't have an established QB, so I think that, having spent a lot to get the young Mr. Campbell, it will be good to see what he can do.

As to LaVar, I would argue strenuously that he has not progressed consistently every year. He has improved somewhat, but if he were getting that much better every year, I doubt they would have moved him from the Sam where he played under Marty and Marvin. Frankly, LaVar was too impetuous during Marvin's stay here to milk Coach Lewis for what he was worth. He has pouted about being asked to do things outside his college comfort zone - that is, he has specifically resisted opportunities to grow professionally.

I really believe that LaVar is a nice man. I also believe that he is a physiological freak who makes the game change around him, ala Ron Mexico. I do not believe that he has maximized his talent by learning his plays, playing with discipline, or being a team leader. He has poor impulse control and a need to talk. With any luck, his continuing maturation process (and, yes, I acknowledge again, there has been one) combined with the stellar coaching he will get under GW and staff, will show us the LaVar that could be. That is some scary junk.

I agree that Lavar has not proven to be all that he can be or is touted to be, but he has shown flashes at least, of greatness. I wasn't exactly saying that he is making us forget about LT or even Monte Coleman at this point, but year after year, that he is in there, he has been making some good plays. Opposing teams account for him in their game plan. The strong-side in the NFL wasn't using his strengths fully either. I have always said he is better suited playing across the line, rushing from different positions, or dropping back in coverage, not playing up against bigger OL or tight-ends.

Ramsey has not shown me anything. Well, I do believe he has moxie, but is short on the skills his position requires. With Lavar, you don't get that he CAN'T make plays, you just don't always see him do that. But that is also attributable to a different system every year. With Ramsey, I don't see it, I just don't see it. After a certain amount of years at QB, you can't keep calling it an experiment. It's an experience. A bad one.

As for the QB situation itself, we don't have anyone that we can say is the established guy in which we can build championships around. In all of the games that I have seen Ramsey play, and I saw them all, he has not even shown flashes of greatness, let alone a steady player at QB.

Bottom line, he needs to get it on, or get gone. Period. He will have had two off-seasons under Gibbs and that is enough time to learn the system (for all ye Ramsey faithful that keep implying that crutch). Give the young guy a chance (JC) after that.

[darksome]

Uh Oh...... :( Somebody gonna git a whoopin with the rolling pin!!!! When you know who reads you know what !!!!!!!!!!

Sorry about the Babe burning! LOL! :Peace:

[COUNCILMAN]

And I think people should ask themselves this question:
If Gibbs believed that there was even a fair chance that Ramsey would blossom into the player than REAL RICK believes he is/can be; why did he give up a future first rounder for Jason Campbell. Why would he do that, if he saw enough in Ramsey to make him believe that there was even an iffy chance of Ramsey becoming a good player?

And why the heck did Bill Walsh trade Tampa Bay to get Steve Young when he already had Joe FRIKKIN Montana? Use your brain. You pick up good QB's when you have an opportunity.

Steve Young warmed the bench in San Fran for 3 years but it sure was nice that he was there when Montana went down. Are you telling us that Bill Walsh didn't see enough in Joe Montana, his Superbowl QB, so he traded for Young so he could ditch Montana?

This may be hard for you to believe Dr. Doom, but all football knowledge doesn't end with you, and your reasoning doesn't necessarily reflect Joe Gibbs reasoning. I stand on my statement that Patrick Ramdsey will make the Pro Bowl and that your are wrong: Patrick is not being replaced...but instead, the QB position is simply being strengthened for the next couple of years when the Skins make their Superbowl run.

[COUNCILMAN]

I for one, think this is a very good example of why stats should be thrown out the window. But I am sure Mr. Harrington in Detroit will find some measure of happiness in your futile findings: 46 -48 - 50 - 0.95

I think your math puts "The Captain" right up there for MVP. He better hope you are right. His future depends on it!!!

What findings are those? I never included Joey Harrington in any stats and never claimed he would make it. Where did you get that? Joey Harrington has twice as many starts as Ramsey and is still throwing more interceptions than TD passes and his TD/starts ratio is at a 1.0. Even drafting excellent wide receivers and being in the same system for 2 years in a row...Joey just can't seem to cut it. Year 4 for him will be a failure.

Year 4 for Patrick will be a success. Thats the only claim I made.

[darksome]

And why the heck did Bill Walsh trade Tampa Bay to get Steve Young when he already had Joe FRIKKIN Montana? Use your brain. You pick up good QB's when you have an opportunity.

Steve Young warmed the bench in San Fran for 3 years but it sure was nice that he was there when Montana went down. Are you telling us that Bill Walsh didn't see enough in Joe Montana, his Superbowl QB, so he traded for Young so he could ditch Montana?

This may be hard for you to believe Dr. Doom, but all football knowledge doesn't end with you, and your reasoning doesn't necessarily reflect Joe Gibbs reasoning. I stand on my statement that Patrick Ramdsey will make the Pro Bowl and that your are wrong: Patrick is not being replaced...but instead, the QB position is simply being strengthened for the next couple of years when the Skins make their Superbowl run.

I agree with you 100%. Patrick "Ramdsey" might make the Pro Bowl, whenever he enters the NFL, but Patrick "Ramsey" sure as hell won't.

You said Steve Young and Joe Montana. That is not an accurate comparison to Campbell and Ramsey. In fact, it's laughable. Steve Young was established as a good quarterback already and was a very capable back-up to pick up where Joe left off when he retired, or if he got injured during a SB run. That pick-up was very much understood, though probably not appreciated by Joe as much as the fans.

The same situation is not what's happening in Washington, because Ramsey, gulp, is not on a same par LEVEL as Joe in terms of being the established (not accomplished) vet, and JC is no way the accomplished back-up. Getting JC was all about eventually supplanting Ramsey as the starter, a position which he is thrust into in the first place because of the "lesser of evils" rule, not because of his heroics or even STEADY play at QB.

Just the facts jack...

[darksome]

What findings are those? I never included Joey Harrington in any stats and never claimed he would make it. Where did you get that? Joey Harrington has twice as many starts as Ramsey and is still throwing more interceptions than TD passes and his TD/starts ratio is at a 1.0. Even drafting excellent wide receivers and being in the same system for 2 years in a row...Joey just can't seem to cut it. Year 4 for him will be a failure.

Year 4 for Patrick will be a success. Thats the only claim I made.

I used your formula. I never said you used his name. Read it again. It's the formula why you said Patrick will succeed, so what difference does it make which name I used? He had a low ratio as well, so why doesn't he apply. Look at your formula again.

[NamVet4]

Starting for Joe Gibbs is the best thing that could happen to Patrick Ramsey right now because he wont have to be the man on offense (that title belongs to clinton portis and his back ups). He now needs to learn how to make some of the throws he has had trouble with since his rookie year and manage the game.

Absolutely correct Lady!
These two points are the cornerstone to any future success for Patrick Ramsey. Coach Gibbs is building an offense that does not need a super star QB - the scheme will run well with a QB who can manage the game!!!! Ramsey’s assets need to be fine tuned, his shortcomings diminished and his natural talent worked into the scheme. As further justification, look back to Gibbs Era I and see if we really had any “super star” QB’s !

[darksome]

Absolutely correct Lady!
These two points are the cornerstone to any future success for Patrick Ramsey. Coach Gibbs is building an offense that does not need a super star QB - the scheme will run well with a QB who can manage the game!!!! Ramsey’s assets need to be fine tuned, his shortcomings diminished and his natural talent worked into the scheme. As further justification, look back to Gibbs Era I and see if we really had any “super star” QB’s !

With all due respect to the Gibbs I era, i think the game is a heck of a lot faster, and the time on the clock is shorter. You don't have as long to think about what you want to do anymore, you have to react quicker and get rid of the ball. He (Ramsey) has been hearing that since day one he got drafted. If we have to "over-haul" him, why not just groom Campbell?

[Redskinmayhem]

How many Games did Ram start under Gibbs? Was it 6? Sorry for getting into this thread kinda late but I'd like to see a comparison of Rams stats in all the games he started under Gibbs and the previous best 6 games of his NFL career.

[COUNCILMAN]

I used your formula. I never said you used his name. Read it again. It's the formula why you said Patrick will succeed, so what difference does it make which name I used? He had a low ratio as well, so why doesn't he apply. Look at your formula again.

First of all its NOT a math formula. You just don't plug in numbers and the value will always be the same. After all, we are dealing with human beings and each QB is in a different situation. What we are looking for is a pattern or a trend, rather than a formula.

The trend is that the higher the TD/starts ratio then the more likely you have a successful QB. Joey Harrington is a failure not just because his ratio is lower than Patricks but the CIRCUMSTANCES have a lot to do with it. Joey has been in the same system for 2 straight years already and has actually had some pretty good receivers too. Still, even being handed the job from day 1 and having many more starts than Patrick and being in the same system for 24 straight games...he didn't seem to show much improvement.

It is my opinion that Joey will not make it. Now...you can spin that or compare it to boiled water if you want...but we are not talking about an exact science but trends and stats and where we think they are leading.

As I said..this all leads me to believe that Patrick is on the verge of a pro bowl season because he has done well...considering...considering he has had a lot going against him and yet he has more TD passes than ints and he has kept a pretty good attutude during the whole process.

If you disagree with that...thats fine with me. Lets just not argue over whetehr there is a formula that works 100% of the time and every Dr. Doom out there believes in it or not. I just stated some facts...my opinion of them..and thats it. Now we just wait until September.

By the way...do you think Ramsey is A bomb or THE bomb.

[akhhorus]

And why the heck did Bill Walsh trade Tampa Bay to get Steve Young when he already had Joe FRIKKIN Montana? Use your brain. You pick up good QB's when you have an opportunity.

Yes, but that was before the Salary cap era, when you could stash good players on the bench for 3-5 years. You cannot afford to waste draft picks and cap money in the era of the salary cap. Especially first round picks on a team that has struggled for a long time.

Steve Young warmed the bench in San Fran for 3 years but it sure was nice that he was there when Montana went down. Are you telling us that Bill Walsh didn't see enough in Joe Montana, his Superbowl QB, so he traded for Young so he could ditch Montana?

So, you're comparing Montana now to Ramsey? LMAO. And Walsh got him as a good backup. There never was any QB contraversey, mainly because Montana was the greatest QB of all time--What has Ramsey done to show that he's good QB?

This may be hard for you to believe Dr. Doom, but all football knowledge doesn't end with you, and your reasoning doesn't necessarily reflect Joe Gibbs reasoning. I stand on my statement that Patrick Ramdsey will make the Pro Bowl and that your are wrong: Patrick is not being replaced...but instead, the QB position is simply being strengthened for the next couple of years when the Skins make their Superbowl run.

You are only right if Gibbs drafted a QB without trading up for him. He dealt away a future first for Campbell, and Gibbs(and 99% of the league) doesn't deal high drafts picks unless the player contributes soon. Like giving up the 2005 2nd rounder for Cooley. If you want to clutch your Ramsey doll every night and tell yourself that Campbell was merely traded up for and drafted to be Ram's backup, feel free to. Reality is completely different. If Gibbs dealt away three picks with the intend of making Campbell the backup QB, as you contend, then he isn't fit to be coach of the Redskins. Especially when he could draft a DE with those picks :D

And I would love for Ramsey to make the Pro Bowl, but I haven't seen much, if any evidence, that he ever will. Have faith all you want, but I'll deal with Reality.

[darksome]

First of all its NOT a math formula. You just don't plug in numbers and the value will always be the same. After all, we are dealing with human beings and each QB is in a different situation. What we are looking for is a pattern or a trend, rather than a formula.

The trend is that the higher the TD/starts ratio then the more likely you have a successful QB. Joey Harrington is a failure not just because his ratio is lower than Patricks but the CIRCUMSTANCES have a lot to do with it. Joey has been in the same system for 2 straight years already and has actually had some pretty good receivers too. Still, even being handed the job from day 1 and having many more starts than Patrick and being in the same system for 24 straight games...he didn't seem to show much improvement.

It is my opinion that Joey will not make it. Now...you can spin that or compare it to boiled water if you want...but we are not talking about an exact science but trends and stats and where we think they are leading.

As I said..this all leads me to believe that Patrick is on the verge of a pro bowl season because he has done well...considering...considering he has had a lot going against him and yet he has more TD passes than ints and he has kept a pretty good attutude during the whole process.

If you disagree with that...thats fine with me. Lets just not argue over whetehr there is a formula that works 100% of the time and every Dr. Doom out there believes in it or not. I just stated some facts...my opinion of them..and thats it. Now we just wait until September.

By the way...do you think Ramsey is A bomb or THE bomb.

I think Patrick is a bum, and he can't THROW the bomb!

If that changes this year, I don't apologize. So did Gus Frerotte.

[smoak]

I think Ramsey could potentially have a really good season, but the Pro Bowl will probably be out of his reach b/c it is more a popularity contest. Unless we win the East, it'll be Vick, Culpepper, McNabb/Favre... But honestly., who cares about the Pro Bowl??? All I want the young man to do is cut down on his turnovers and play smart football. He isn't going to pile up 4,500 yards in a conservative offense... Portis is always the first option in the offense if we are going to be successful.

[darksome]

. If Gibbs dealt away three picks with the intend of making Campbell the backup QB, as you contend, then he isn't fit to be coach of the Redskins. Especially when he could draft a DE with those picks :D

And I would love for Ramsey to make the Pro Bowl, but I haven't seen much, if any evidence, that he ever will. Have faith all you want, but I'll deal with Reality.

I just told that guy the same thing. Maybe he will listen if Ramsey himself told him that...BTW, love the Ramsey doll thing. That gets them everytime!

[smoak]

I think Patrick is a bum, and he can't THROW the bomb!

If that changes this year, I don't apologize. So did Gus Frerotte.

darksome -

Ramsey definitely has his weaknesses, but go back and look at some of the highlights in '04 (I know there aren't many). Ramsey can make the all the throws, but he needs to improve on reading defenses, getting the ball out quicker, and most importantly.... NOT throwing picks. If he cuts his INTs down, then IMO he is one of the better NFC QBs.

Of course the NFC is lacking in talent these days.

[akhhorus]

First of all its NOT a math formula. You just don't plug in numbers and the value will always be the same. After all, we are dealing with human beings and each QB is in a different situation. What we are looking for is a pattern or a trend, rather than a formula.

The trend is that the higher the TD/starts ratio then the more likely you have a successful QB. Joey Harrington is a failure not just because his ratio is lower than Patricks but the CIRCUMSTANCES have a lot to do with it. Joey has been in the same system for 2 straight years already and has actually had some pretty good receivers too. Still, even being handed the job from day 1 and having many more starts than Patrick and being in the same system for 24 straight games...he didn't seem to show much improvement.

It is my opinion that Joey will not make it. Now...you can spin that or compare it to boiled water if you want...but we are not talking about an exact science but trends and stats and where we think they are leading.

As I said..this all leads me to believe that Patrick is on the verge of a pro bowl season because he has done well...considering...considering he has had a lot going against him and yet he has more TD passes than ints and he has kept a pretty good attutude during the whole process.

If you disagree with that...thats fine with me. Lets just not argue over whetehr there is a formula that works 100% of the time and every Dr. Doom out there believes in it or not. I just stated some facts...my opinion of them..and thats it. Now we just wait until September.

By the way...do you think Ramsey is A bomb or THE bomb.

So is this your own personal formula, or where did you get it from? Jaws and all the QB analysts I've heard use the yards per attempt, rather than TDs per start. By your formula, a QB who had 99 yards and 3 TDs had a better game than the one who had 400 yards and 2TDs. I have a great stat: wins.

And Ramsey's TD stats can be misleading: he has 33 Tds, but out of 29 games, he has thrown for 22 of his TDs in 10 games. In the other 19 games, he has 7 TDs. Looks like he's very inconsistant with his play, eh?

[COUNCILMAN]

Yes, but that was before the Salary cap era, when you could stash good players on the bench for 3-5 years. You cannot afford to waste draft picks and cap money in the era of the salary cap. Especially first round picks on a team that has struggled for a long time.



So, you're comparing Montana now to Ramsey? LMAO. And Walsh got him as a good backup. There never was any QB contraversey, mainly because Montana was the greatest QB of all time--What has Ramsey done to show that he's good QB?



You are only right if Gibbs drafted a QB without trading up for him. He dealt away a future first for Campbell, and Gibbs(and 99% of the league) doesn't deal high drafts picks unless the player contributes soon. Like giving up the 2005 2nd rounder for Cooley. If you want to clutch your Ramsey doll every night and tell yourself that Campbell was merely traded up for and drafted to be Ram's backup, feel free to. Reality is completely different. If Gibbs dealt away three picks with the intend of making Campbell the backup QB, as you contend, then he isn't fit to be coach of the Redskins. Especially when he could draft a DE with those picks :D

And I would love for Ramsey to make the Pro Bowl, but I haven't seen much, if any evidence, that he ever will. Have faith all you want, but I'll deal with Reality.

Reality? The reality is that you are strange. You compare Ramsey to Brett Favre...and then you question why I could compare Montana to Ramsey. You are seriously losing it.

But just for the record, I never compared Montana to Ramsey. I challenge everyone viewing these rediculous posts of yours, to go back and find where I COMPARED Ramsey to any numbers of Montana. Didn't happen. What I simply did was compare a coaches philosphy(Walsh) of trading for a backup, to another coaches philosophy(Gibbs) of trading for a backup. Thats all.

Where in Gods name you got a Montana to Ramsey comparison is beyond anybody. You have lost it.

[akhhorus]

I think Ramsey could potentially have a really good season, but the Pro Bowl will probably be out of his reach b/c it is more a popularity contest. Unless we win the East, it'll be Vick, Culpepper, McNabb/Favre... But honestly., who cares about the Pro Bowl??? All I want the young man to do is cut down on his turnovers and play smart football. He isn't going to pile up 4,500 yards in a conservative offense... Portis is always the first option in the offense if we are going to be successful.

I fully agree, Ramsey can have 1000 yards passing, if they win 10+ games, I'm happy.

[akhhorus]

Reality? The reality is that you are strange. You compare Ramsey to Brett Favre...and then you question why I could compare Montana to Ramsey. You are seriously losing it.

But just for the record, I never compared Montana to Ramsey. I challenge everyone viewing these rediculous posts of yours, to go back and find where I COMPARED Ramsey to any numbers of Montana. Didn't happen. What I simply did was compare a coaches philosphy(Walsh) of trading for a backup, to another coaches philosophy(Gibbs) of trading for a backup. Thats all.

Where in Gods name you got a Montana to Ramsey comparison is beyond anybody. You have lost it.

So you tactic now to avoid what I posted, is to claim that I've lost it? How about debating the issue for once in your life?

How about debating the fact that it was a much different NFL era before the cap. And you compared this situation to Montana/Young, not me.

[akhhorus]

Reality? The reality is that you are strange. You compare Ramsey to Brett Favre..

No, you compared Ramsey to Favre, Culpepper, Brady, Carr, Plummer.

[akhhorus]

And REALRICK, I'm done debating this topic with you, all you want to do is to make your speech, and if someone dares debate you on your facts, you call them names and avoid the debate. Do it with someone else, its getting old here. May I suggest a weblog,where your view of reality will be unfettered by facts and truth and any actual debate.

[COUNCILMAN]

So is this your own personal formula, or where did you get it from? Jaws and all the QB analysts I've heard use the yards per attempt, rather than TDs per start. By your formula, a QB who had 99 yards and 3 TDs had a better game than the one who had 400 yards and 2TDs. I have a great stat: wins.

And Ramsey's TD stats can be misleading: he has 33 Tds, but out of 29 games, he has thrown for 22 of his TDs in 10 games. In the other 19 games, he has 7 TDs. Looks like he's very inconsistant with his play, eh?

And in some games Brett Farve and Joe Montana have thrown 4 TD passes and in other games they have thrown NONE. They are very inconsistent as well. Nevermind. I don't think you get it, especially since I just explained to you not to look at this as a math formula, and you just went right out and started plugging in numbers to fit in with your conclusion. Maybe you're stubborn or maybe you just don't read before you start typing. I;m not sure which...but go back and read what I just wrote in the previous thread about the HUMAN factor....and opinions.

You're just going to have to stop trying to find black and white answers to pre season predictions. That word prediction...is another word for opinion. And opinions vary based upon your outlook, gloom or doom...or who you are rooting for...as well as the results will end up varying based upon injuries, weather conditions, time of day, other players, coaches, etc etc.

ONCE AGAIN...let me say it over. We;ll just have to wait until September to see. My belief in what Ramsey is capable of...formula or not...shouldn't destroy your day or keep Dr. Doom up all night in his cubicle just looking for ways to prove he is right. There is no right or wrong at this point of the offseason. There are only opinions and predictions. Thats fine. I have mine. You all have yours. Now we can move on and talk about the offseason team practices going on. Please don't spend anothe minute trying to find numbers that plug into my analysis that prove YOU are the one who is right.

Nobody can be right...until after season number FOUR. That season is coming up for Patrick. Just file this away and you shall see what I am talking about come SEPTEMBER....not during your next post.

[darksome]

darksome -

Ramsey definitely has his weaknesses, but go back and look at some of the highlights in '04 (I know there aren't many). Ramsey can make the all the throws, but he needs to improve on reading defenses, getting the ball out quicker, and most importantly.... NOT throwing picks. If he cuts his INTs down, then IMO he is one of the better NFC QBs.

Of course the NFC is lacking in talent these days.

Yes, all of that is cool. But my thing is this. I don't get all caught up in the stats thing. I have been to games where we were in it, but taken out of it, by poor play from the QB position. Both him and Brunell. Sure, there was bad line play too, but getting rid of the ball to a guy on the sideline (throwing away, out of bounds) is still much better than not reading the defense and taking the sack cuz you held the ball too long. Ramsey holds the ball too long and doesn't complete the reads timely. He gets stuck on trying to make a play, but by the time it develops, LOOK OUT!

None of the over-throws, or almost INTs are in the stat sheets as such. They are only reflected as pass attempts. Neither is the look in his eyes that other team's defensive players say he has - the clueless look. I hate hearing that! Being a leader is innate mostly, and Ramsey does not show that he has that quality to step up to the plate, and make some things happen when we need it. That is how you get the troops, not just your roommate, rallied behind you. Just go get it. If you fail in the process, then that is cool. But smart, hard-nosed, leave it on the field football is always appreciated here. Not the costly gambling that Ramsey does.

Know what I mean?

[BurgundyNGold]

darksome -

Ramsey definitely has his weaknesses, but go back and look at some of the highlights in '04 (I know there aren't many). Ramsey can make the all the throws, but he needs to improve on reading defenses, getting the ball out quicker, and most importantly.... NOT throwing picks. If he cuts his INTs down, then IMO he is one of the better NFC QBs.

Of course the NFC is lacking in talent these days.
I agree, Smoak... almost. I think he has problems putting air under the ball, and I think he gets excited and launches the ball over his receiver's head, usually at the beginning of games and in the clutch drives.

Ramsey needs to work on two things:

1) His footwork is for crap. He needs to lose those happy feet and learn to bounce, set and step into his throws. The happy feet and relying on this arm alone bit is probably trauma left over from the Chuck-N-Duck. That throwing off the back foot crap just doesn't cut it for the good QBs.

And since he was mentioned, that goes for Favre too -- another guy who has footwork problems. You take a look at when Farve makes most of his famously God awful throws and you'll see that his feet and body are WAY out of position on most of them. I would say that poor fundamentals has always plagued Favre and kept him from being an even better QB. Ramsey is not Favre, so he has better get his fundamentals down and quick.

2) Settle down! He gets too excited and just launches passes. As I mentoined, especially at the beginning of games or on important 4Q drives. This is exacerbated by the poor footwork and form.

So, if Ramsey can fix #1, it should help reduce errant throws, especially on #2. If he can settle down, that will eliminate #2. If he can learn to deliver the medium-deep balls with a little air to allow the WR to run under the pass, he could be a very good QB.

But those are 3 big IFs.

[smoak]

Football is and always will be won on the offensive line IMO. It is easy for us to say Ramsey has "happy feet" in the pocket, but we are getting hit by 300 lb linemen coming unblocked... I'm no apologizing for him, he needs to improve.... However, some of the problems will improve as the team improves this season.

That said, I do think he needs to work on his mechanics and decision making ability (reading defenses), but not to the extent some believe. I think the kid will be fine (not great, but fine).

[smoak]

Yes, all of that is cool. But my thing is this. I don't get all caught up in the stats thing. I have been to games where we were in it, but taken out of it, by poor play from the QB position. Both him and Brunell. Sure, there was bad line play too, but getting rid of the ball to a guy on the sideline (throwing away, out of bounds) is still much better than not reading the defense and taking the sack cuz you held the ball too long. Ramsey holds the ball too long and doesn't complete the reads timely. He gets stuck on trying to make a play, but by the time it develops, LOOK OUT!

None of the over-throws, or almost INTs are in the stat sheets as such. They are only reflected as pass attempts. Neither is the look in his eyes that other team's defensive players say he has - the clueless look. I hate hearing that! Being a leader is innate mostly, and Ramsey does not show that he has that quality to step up to the plate, and make some things happen when we need it. That is how you get the troops, not just your roommate, rallied behind you. Just go get it. If you fail in the process, then that is cool. But smart, hard-nosed, leave it on the field football is always appreciated here. Not the costly gambling that Ramsey does.

Know what I mean?

Yeah, but dropped balls and deflected INTS are also in his stats... I know what you mean in that stats do not tell a story, but Ramsey is a good QB (IMO). From what I can see on TV, he is as poised as any player at a comprable stage in his career. It was really easy for Big Ben to appear cool and calm when he had a 15 point lead and was fedding Bettis/Duce all game. I'm not knocking Rothelisburger (sp?), but look at him in the playoffs and it is obvious when a QB hqas a "deer in the headlights" look. I didn't see that down the stretch with P-Ram. I saw a young QB coming off a crappy offensive system trying too hard to win the starting job. He has the respect of his teammates (especially the Oline) and I believe he is as much of a leader as any QB under Gibbs. His arm strength is there... If he works on decisions and accuracy, then we'll be in good shape.

[Dallas Sucks]

It is obvious that Ramsey will not be around much longer, unless he has two really great seasons this year and next year. I am more pissed about not taking Mike Williams in the draft since he was available. I know we need a corner since Smoot went to the vikes, but I think we could have picked up Marlin Jackson, or mcfadden out of FSU. I think with an excellent safety in Taylor and vet experience in springs and harris we would have been ok this season. Hell, you can't even touch them after five yards anyhow, might as well get a kid thats tall and fast.

I couldnt imagine the offense with Patten, TJ, Moss, and M. Williams. Three speedy WR's and one athletic tall WR. Would have been awesome with Portis in the backfield.

[smoak]

It is obvious that Ramsey will not be around much longer, unless he has two really great seasons this year and next year. I am more pissed about not taking Mike Williams in the draft since he was available. I know we need a corner since Smoot went to the vikes, but I think we could have picked up Marlin Jackson, or mcfadden out of FSU. I think with an excellent safety in Taylor and vet experience in springs and harris we would have been ok this season. Hell, you can't even touch them after five yards anyhow, might as well get a kid thats tall and fast.

I couldnt imagine the offense with Patten, TJ, Moss, and M. Williams. Three speedy WR's and one athletic tall WR. Would have been awesome with Portis in the backfield.

I wanted Will9iams as much as anyone, but having him would have cut down on touches for our boy Cooley. I think Cooley will be a huge factor in getting us some key first downs in '05. Ramsey is definitely not obviously "gone"... Lets see how he does this season first.

[Meatsnack]

Yes, but that was before the Salary cap era, when you could stash good players on the bench for 3-5 years. You cannot afford to waste draft picks and cap money in the era of the salary cap. Especially first round picks on a team that has struggled for a long time. That is a good point and one that has been raised few times as the primary difference between Gibbs I and Gibbs II. We were a team famous for stashing players before - how many years was Mark Rypien on IR? Two?



So, you're comparing Montana now to Ramsey? LMAO. And Walsh got him as a good backup. There never was any QB contraversey, mainly because Montana was the greatest QB of all time--What has Ramsey done to show that he's good QB? Actually, there was a controversy and that is why Montana finished his career in Kansas City. Montana was showing enough rust that his one flaw - lack of arm strength - was being exploited. Young had no such difficulties and there he went into the driver's seat.



You are only right if Gibbs drafted a QB without trading up for him. He dealt away a future first for Campbell, and Gibbs(and 99% of the league) doesn't deal high drafts picks unless the player contributes soon. Like giving up the 2005 2nd rounder for Cooley. If you want to clutch your Ramsey doll every night and tell yourself that Campbell was merely traded up for and drafted to be Ram's backup, feel free to. Reality is completely different. If Gibbs dealt away three picks with the intend of making Campbell the backup QB, as you contend, then he isn't fit to be coach of the Redskins. Especially when he could draft a DE with those picks :DThat is the thing I can't get. If we really wanted Campbell all along - why do this trade so far in advance of the draft to allow other teams to hose it up? We clearly had a player in mind, since you don't trade all those picks without a target, and I believe that target was Campbell or Matt Jones. What I can't figure out is why we did it the way we did it. Weird.

And I would love for Ramsey to make the Pro Bowl, but I haven't seen much, if any evidence, that he ever will. Have faith all you want, but I'll deal with Reality.When I look at Ramsey, I see most of the hard to come by intangibles that make great QBs. The toughness, the calm in the pocket he had before Spurrier beat it out of him, the intelligence to learn the total offense. He was sort of the anti-Jeff George, if you will, but also with the rocket arm. The one fly in the ointment, as I see it, is can he regain the pocket presence that he displayed so clearly as a rookie to allow him to do things like read to his 3rd option and look-off safeties? He seemed to settle down by the end of last season but only kickoff '05 will tell the true tale. I think he has all the ability to be a great QB. The only tool you'd like to see in his box that isn't there is mobility. Whether he will ever realize his potential is up in the air. I am certainly rooting for the young man.

[The Skinsinator]

I wanted Will9iams as much as anyone, but having him would have cut down on touches for our boy Cooley. I think Cooley will be a huge factor in getting us some key first downs in '05. Ramsey is definitely not obviously "gone"... Lets see how he does this season first.

Agreed. Gibbs will almost always use a run first offsense and Williams would have been more of a luxury than need. Rogers was the right pick. As long as the line and Ramsey come through this offense can be good, very good actually.

[akhhorus]

The question of Ramsey's oline and supporting players, Ive said it before; but if Ramsey needs good talent around him to look even just like a compentant starter in the NFL, then you might as well dump him and look for a Qb who doesn't need the supporting cast around him to look good. There's no point in relying on a QB who needs a very good supporting cast, they all need talent at the positions, but a good QB doesn't need great/pro bowl talent everywhere to succeed.

[RedHokieSkin]

The question of Ramsey's oline and supporting players, Ive said it before; but if Ramsey needs good talent around him to look even just like a compentant starter in the NFL, then you might as well dump him and look for a Qb who doesn't need the supporting cast around him to look good. There's no point in relying on a QB who needs a very good supporting cast, they all need talent at the positions, but a good QB doesn't need great/pro bowl talent everywhere to succeed.

Who are some QBs that have "succeeded" without talent around them?

Also, how does one define the term "succeed"? a win? high comp %? QB Rating? Super Bowl victory? This is subjective.

[BurgundyNGold]

Football is and always will be won on the offensive line IMO. It is easy for us to say Ramsey has "happy feet" in the pocket, but we are getting hit by 300 lb linemen coming unblocked... I'm no apologizing for him, he needs to improve.... However, some of the problems will improve as the team improves this season.

That said, I do think he needs to work on his mechanics and decision making ability (reading defenses), but not to the extent some believe. I think the kid will be fine (not great, but fine).
Watch the film Smoak. The kid is dancing around even when he has "all kinds of time". When he actually DOES set up and throw, he's as good as anybody. The problem is that his mechanics are erratic, which leads to erratic throws. He must lead the league in INTs that have come of of some sort of deflection by his WRs. Better mechanics = better throws = less INTs. When he gets that fixed, then we can focus on his decisions making.

[BurgundyNGold]

It is obvious that Ramsey will not be around much longer, unless he has two really great seasons this year and next year. I am more pissed about not taking Mike Williams in the draft since he was available. I know we need a corner since Smoot went to the vikes, but I think we could have picked up Marlin Jackson, or mcfadden out of FSU. I think with an excellent safety in Taylor and vet experience in springs and harris we would have been ok this season. Hell, you can't even touch them after five yards anyhow, might as well get a kid thats tall and fast.

I couldnt imagine the offense with Patten, TJ, Moss, and M. Williams. Three speedy WR's and one athletic tall WR. Would have been awesome with Portis in the backfield.
Welcome to HR, DS! Great screen name. I really would've guessed that screen name would've gone a lot sooner.

As for MW, I'm with you on that, but it's water under the bridge. Carlos Rogers is a Redskin now, so we have to support him. I will, however, be paying close attention to MW's carreer and what might've been.

[akhhorus]

Who are some QBs that have "succeeded" without talent around them?

Also, how does one define the term "succeed"? a win? high comp %? QB Rating? Super Bowl victory? This is subjective.

First question: How about guys like Favre? Since Sterling Sharpe left, his wideouts have been nothing special. He's had some good players around him, but no one you would remotely call a HOFer or borderline HOFer. Dan Marino never had great talent around him, I would venture to say that the player Miami had around him were ordinary, he was able to overcome that. Jake Delhomme has had nothing around him in Carolina, yet he's done very well. Peyton Manning? Harrison is a great wideout, but the rest of the offense is nothing special, they just benefit from Peyton.

2nd question: REAL RICK/COUNCILMAN is strictly defining success for a QB to mean "Touchdowns per start". He doesn't remotely want to discuss any other stat. He says that its the best indicator of a QB's ability, but I have never heard that from any real expert. I think you have to consider Yards, Yards per attempt, wins and completion percentage.

[redwolf1218]

Welcome to HR, DS! Great screen name. I really would've guessed that screen name would've gone a lot sooner.

As for MW, I'm with you on that, but it's water under the bridge. Carlos Rogers is a Redskin now, so we have to support him. I will, however, be paying close attention to MW's carreer and what might've been.
Welcome DS. Its funny you should say that, because i have been thinking the same thing. i said the same thing when we traded down to get Champ Bailey instead of Ricky Williams (watching Ricky Williams career).

As for Ramsey, he might be one of these QB's who blossums late in his career. Till now i have thought the world of him, but he cant seem to learn to put a touch on the ball. i dont understand why he cant get the timing down to lob it up there and let the guy run under it, instead of always firing it on a rope like a javelin.

[The Skinsinator]

The question of Ramsey's oline and supporting players, Ive said it before; but if Ramsey needs good talent around him to look even just like a compentant starter in the NFL, then you might as well dump him and look for a Qb who doesn't need the supporting cast around him to look good. There's no point in relying on a QB who needs a very good supporting cast, they all need talent at the positions, but a good QB doesn't need great/pro bowl talent everywhere to succeed.

Very good point. Im very torn concerning Ramsey. I really dont know and obviously Joe Gibbs doesnt either. However with his arm, toughness, and attitude greatness is still not out of the realm of possibilities. We all just need to cross our fingers with this season. It is definetely do or die time for him and he knows it. Not just for the Redskins but for alot of his nfl future.

[The Skinsinator]

Till now i have thought the world of him, but he cant seem to learn to put a touch on the ball. i dont understand why he cant get the timing down to lob it up there and let the guy run under it, instead of always firing it on a rope like a javelin.

Agreed. He needs to learn the touch pass or he will never come close to realizing his potential. The touch pass is undoubtedly a requirement for a successful nfl starter. Hopefully Musgrave and Gibbs can foster his development here.

[akhhorus]

Very good point. Im very torn concerning Ramsey. I really dont know and obviously Joe Gibbs doesnt either. However with his arm, toughness, and attitude greatness is still not out of the realm of possibilities. We all just need to cross our fingers with this season. It is definetely do or die time for him and he knows it. Not just for the Redskins but for alot of his nfl future.

A Quarterback's responsibility to the team is not like the responsibility of the Right Guard. He has to make the players around him better, not vice-versa. A Qb who needs talent better than his level of talent around him in order to look good is not a productive player. You can get away with that in a lot of other positions on the football field, but QB has to make everyone look good. You want WRs to leave and look bad, that means they looked good because of your QB. Ramsey is not fulfilling this, he requires talent great than his level of talent to even look like a servicable starter in NFL. Campbell is an unknown, but going into the unknown might be the smart play here.

[The Skinsinator]

A Quarterback's responsibility to the team is not like the responsibility of the Right Guard. He has to make the players around him better, not vice-versa. A Qb who needs talent better than his level of talent around him in order to look good is not a productive player. You can get away with that in a lot of other positions on the football field, but QB has to make everyone look good. You want WRs to leave and look bad, that means they looked good because of your QB. Ramsey is not fulfilling this, he requires talent great than his level of talent to even look like a servicable starter in NFL. Campbell is an unknown, but going into the unknown might be the smart play here.

Hes certainly an unknown. A very attractive unknown. However Ramsey is the starter for 2005 and we as fans need to pray that all these assumed reasons for his general mediocrity/unsuccessfulness bode true regarding different systems, happy feet, mental inferiority etc. No more excuses for him and his play. We shall all know soon. Probably within the first 4-6 games of the season. As leary as I am with Ramsey at this point starting a rookie makes me more nervous. Im not inferring that you are in favor of that whatsoever.

[akhhorus]

Hes certainly an unknown. A very attractive unknown. However Ramsey is the starter for 2005 and we as fans need to pray that all these assumed reasons for his general mediocrity/unsuccessful bode true regarding different systems, happy feet, mental inferiority etc. No more excuses for him and his play. We shall all know soon. Probably within the first 4-6 games of the season. As leary as I am with Ramsey at this point starting a rookie makes me more nervous. Im not inferring that you are in favor of that whatsoever.

As I have said a ton of times, I hope Ramsey proves me wrong, but I'm not counting on it.

[opel4449]

It is really surprising that we keep talking about Ramsey and try to find a way to call him a Nfl QB, when the guy is bearly a third string quality player with a strong arm.
I strongly feel that the Skins had a chance to draft a quality QB in Rogers (the Cal. guy) if they wanted to draft a QB by jumping to the 23rd pick. It would probably have cost an additional 4th round pick to jump 2 steps ahead.
The price for Campbell was too too high as he was bearly a 2rd rounder at best. But that price for Rogers would have been low as he was regarded as high a top pick. I think the coach has lost a bit of his cutting edge or Caritto is a total misfit as a GM. In my view the next years pick we gave will be a top 10 may be top 5 and Campbell was no way worth that (even without the other picks he cost us). I am huge Joe Gibbs fan but my be he has finally run out of ideas to become a top coach in the new era of the NFL.

[The Skinsinator]

It is really surprising that we keep talking about Ramsey and try to find a way to call him a Nfl QB, when the guy is bearly a third string quality player with a strong arm.
I strongly feel that the Skins had a chance to draft a quality QB in Rogers (the Cal. guy) if they wanted to draft a QB by jumping to the 23rd pick. It would probably have cost an additional 4th round pick to jump 2 steps ahead.


I would much rather have Jason Campbell over Rogers any day. Many nfl scouts/coaches would agree even after Washington took Campbell. It was about a 50/50 split. Campbell is bigger, faster, with a better arm. I really didnt care for Rogers overall attitude/demeanor during the draft. You can thank his bowl performance and everyones continual liking for Alex Smith for his fall in the draft.

[akhhorus]

It is really surprising that we keep talking about Ramsey and try to find a way to call him a Nfl QB, when the guy is bearly a third string quality player with a strong arm.
I strongly feel that the Skins had a chance to draft a quality QB in Rogers (the Cal. guy) if they wanted to draft a QB by jumping to the 23rd pick. It would probably have cost an additional 4th round pick to jump 2 steps ahead.
The price for Campbell was too too high as he was bearly a 2rd rounder at best. But that price for Rogers would have been low as he was regarded as high a top pick. I think the coach has lost a bit of his cutting edge or Caritto is a total misfit as a GM. In my view the next years pick we gave will be a top 10 may be top 5 and Campbell was no way worth that (even without the other picks he cost us). I am huge Joe Gibbs fan but my be he has finally run out of ideas to become a top coach in the new era of the NFL.

What concerns me about Rodgers is that he is a Tedford Qb, and they never do well in the NFL. He also has no arm strength. Campbell is big, fast and accurate. 25 might look high for him now, but I hope he proves you wrong.

[BurgundyNGold]

Who are some QBs that have "succeeded" without talent around them?

Also, how does one define the term "succeed"? a win? high comp %? QB Rating? Super Bowl victory? This is subjective.
I would think that QBs who will their team to win, making their teammates better in the process are successful QBs. John Elway and Brett Favre fit this definition.

I would look at Mike Vick, as an example too. Look at 2003 when he was out. That team was below .500. The year before, with Vick, they weny to the playoffs. The year after, they went to the NFC Championship game.

Who does he have around him? He has no clear #1 RB (smallish Warrick Dunn and disappointment TJ Ducket splitting time), he has no real WRs (Pierce is NOT a #1, and they had a rookie on the other side last year. Granted, Alge Crumpler is an All-Pro TE, but Vick makes him better.

[Death_Venom]

[/QUOTE] if Ramsey needs good talent around him to look even just like a compentant starter in the NFL, then you might as well dump him and look for a Qb who doesn't need the supporting cast around him to look good

Most QB's that are even modestly successful have at least decent players (aka supporting cast) around them. It is very well known that Gardener & Coles have had the exceptionally bad habit of dropping balls. It is also easily apparent that the Offensive Line had not been of the highest quality in recent years. In Spurrier's system we had a very poor running game that was easily stopped & shutdown and the pass blocking was horrible. All this can lead to the early demise of a QB.

A Quarterback's responsibility to the team is not like the responsibility of the Right Guard.

Here again I disagree. The RT has provide the block/move in order for the run or pass game to succeed. The Hoggs were excellent evidence of how a RT/LT/ETC. made a huge difference in gameplay. The responsiblities of a QB are just far more noticeable than that of a offensive lineman. Football is a TEAM sport-and it takes many players to create that team, each entrusted with specific tasks, which when not performed can make the QB look very bad at times.

When I look at Ramsey, I see most of the hard to come by intangibles that make great QBs. The toughness, the calm in the pocket he had before Spurrier beat it out of him, the intelligence to learn the total offense. He was sort of the anti-Jeff George, if you will, but also with the rocket arm. The one fly in the ointment, as I see it, is can he regain the pocket presence that he displayed so clearly as a rookie to allow him to do things like read to his 3rd option and look-off safeties? He seemed to settle down by the end of last season but only kickoff '05 will tell the true tale. I think he has all the ability to be a great QB. The only tool you'd like to see in his box that isn't there is mobility. Whether he will ever realize his potential is up in the air. I am certainly rooting for the young man.

I agree entirely. I have even heard Aikman, Young, and Theisman make several remarks about Ramsey-. Each of them seem to think much differently than some here on the board. NOW in conclusion of this I am quite sure the Ramsey we have all been waiting to see will arrive this season. SHOULD HE NOT well-I think the answer is quite obvious: We have a young, highly regarded Campell sitting in the wings, and a Pink Slip for Ramsey. Either way I am all for the best QB-Ramsey or Campbell.

[COUNCILMAN]

First question: How about guys like Favre? Since Sterling Sharpe left, his wideouts have been nothing special. He's had some good players around him, but no one you would remotely call a HOFer or borderline HOFer. Dan Marino never had great talent around him, I would venture to say that the player Miami had around him were ordinary, he was able to overcome that. Jake Delhomme has had nothing around him in Carolina, yet he's done very well. Peyton Manning? Harrison is a great wideout, but the rest of the offense is nothing special, they just benefit from Peyton.

2nd question: REAL RICK/COUNCILMAN is strictly defining success for a QB to mean "Touchdowns per start". He doesn't remotely want to discuss any other stat. He says that its the best indicator of a QB's ability, but I have never heard that from any real expert. I think you have to consider Yards, Yards per attempt, wins and completion percentage.

This is where you start to sound rediculous Dr. Doom. I started a thread to talk about Ramsey leading the team to the playoffs and my belief, my opinion that he will actually make the pro bowl this season, and somehow it has come full circle where you attempt to discredit me by saying that Patrick is no Brett Favre or Dan Marino.

I hope folks are seeing the outlandish take you have on Ramsey. Patrick can't show you anything because he can't elevate a team the way Favre and Marino can....2 first ballot HOF quarterbacks.

My expectations are a bit more conservative. All I said, and everyone can verify this, is that Patrick will lead the Skins to the playoffs this year and he will have a PRO BOWL season....NOT a hall of fame season. Still, talk about average receivers all you want, which Favre never has, because he has GOOD receivers...but you continue to gloss over the most important factor in all of this which I specifically highlighted in the original thread....

*Patrick has not had the benefit of having the same coach in the same system 2 years in a row under Joe Gibbs....which equates into nothing more than opportunity. I am looking at the big picture and wondering how much success Brett Favre would have with a different coach, different system, and different receivers entering that system each year. His greatest success came with guys like Brooks, Freeman, and Sharpe who were guys he was familiar with. Even Favre performs better when in the same system over and over and over again...just like Montana did by being in the same system over and over and over...just like Marino benefited by being in the same system with Don Shula year after year.

The biggest point you have ignored Dr. Doom...is this. All the great QB's are great because they benefit from learning and being comfortable in 1 system. Where are all the HOF quarterbacks who change coaches and systems and receivers every single year and perform like HOF quarterbacks in that scenario within their first 3 years.

Patrick will make the Pro Bowl this year....not the HOF this year. The Skins are likely to make the playoffs this year based upon some indicators which I have already laid out. They are not the ONLY indicators Dr. DOOM. Throwing TD passes doesn't mean anything if you throw twice as many int's...which Patrick does NOT. I stand firm. Patrick will make the pro bowl with the consistency he has now been given for the first time. This you shall witness my son...and all your doom and gloom won't prevent it from happening.

[The Skinsinator]

Patrick will make the Pro Bowl this year....not the HOF this year. The Skins are likely to make the playoffs this year based upon some indicators which I have already laid out. They are not the ONLY indicators Dr. DOOM. Throwing TD passes doesn't mean anything if you throw twice as many int's...which Patrick does NOT. I stand firm. Patrick will make the pro bowl with the consistency he has now been given for the first time. This you shall witness my son...and all your doom and gloom won't prevent it from happening.

Oh I pray you are correct Councilman. I applaud your courageous prognastication for Ramsey. If you are to be correct all of this debate will be forgotten. Id be very content with simply a playoff berth. A pro bowl year would indeed be an added benefit though unnecessary.

[BurgundyNGold]

Patrick has not had the benefit of having the same coach in the same system 2 years in a row under Joe Gibbs....which equates into nothing more than opportunity. I am looking at the big picture and wondering how much success Brett Favre would have with a different coach, different system, and different receivers entering that system each year. His greatest success came with guys like Brooks, Freeman, and Sharpe who were guys he was familiar with. Even Favre performs better when in the same system over and over and over again...just like Montana did by being in the same system over and over and over...just like Marino benefited by being in the same system with Don Shula year after year.
Anything is possible for Ramsey. He does have both the physical talent sans mobility and the talent around him to put up decent numbers.

One thing is for sure: He had better pay heed to the flaws in his mechanics and settle down or it could be a long season out of the QB position. And I'm not talking about the "still playing in January" long.

I am interested, however, in how the "Ramsey making the Pro Bowl" prognostication reconciles with your earlier "Mark Brunell being the Comeback Player of the Year" prognostication. :D I would think that these are two mutually exclusive theories.

[darksome]

A lot of good posts and points are being made about this guy Ramsey. I just hope come September, that I am wrong to the 10th degree!! Because that would mean we really have something to cheer about. I'm a Redskin fan, not a player hater. If Ramsey does it, then he has my backing because he would be doing it in the B&G!!

[redskin_rich]

What I think some here are forgetting is that even with an attrocious offense last year, we were close in almost every game, whether it was Brunell or Ramsey behind Center.
Now assuming our Defense is top 5 again and our offense can be in the top 16, I think we have a good shot at the playoffs.
We won a Super Bowl with Mark Rypien, who could not carry an offense at all. He was horrible when the line couldn't block for him.

[hail2skins]

It is really surprising that we keep talking about Ramsey and try to find a way to call him a Nfl QB, when the guy is bearly a third string quality player with a strong arm.
I strongly feel that the Skins had a chance to draft a quality QB in Rogers (the Cal. guy) if they wanted to draft a QB by jumping to the 23rd pick. It would probably have cost an additional 4th round pick to jump 2 steps ahead.
The price for Campbell was too too high as he was bearly a 2rd rounder at best. But that price for Rogers would have been low as he was regarded as high a top pick. I think the coach has lost a bit of his cutting edge or Caritto is a total misfit as a GM. In my view the next years pick we gave will be a top 10 may be top 5 and Campbell was no way worth that (even without the other picks he cost us). I am huge Joe Gibbs fan but my be he has finally run out of ideas to become a top coach in the new era of the NFL.Welcome to hR opel4449. So you're predicting that we'll finish worst than we did this year by saying our pic will be a top 5 or 10.

[akhhorus]

Welcome to hR opel4449. So you're predicting that we'll finish worst than we did this year by saying our pic will be a top 5 or 10.

And he thinks Ramsey is a 3rd string level Qb...me thinks we have a troll.

[Death_Venom]

We won a Super Bowl with Mark Rypien, who could not carry an offense at all. He was horrible when the line couldn't block for him.

My thoughts EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!

[darksome]

My thoughts EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!

Mark Rypien owned the deep ball that year! Where are you guys memory cells at? We looked good going to the Super Bowl. Mark had time to make a sandwich back there!

Ramsey's problem is he IS making a sandwich back there - him and 2 defensive guys cuz he won't throw the ball away or on time!

[Death_Venom]

Mark Rypien owned the deep ball that year!

Yeah he did because the line was blocking their butts off for him & WR's were very quick and DID NOT DROP BALLS...............*AHEM* Gardner *AHEM* :inkston:

[akhhorus]

Yeah he did because the line was blocking their butts off for him & WR's were very quick and DID NOT DROP BALLS...............*AHEM* Gardner *AHEM* :inkston:

And Byner averaged 3.8 yards a carry for that Super Bowl year. The same Portis did in 04.

[Death_Venom]

And Byner averaged 3.8 yards a carry for that Super Bowl year. The same Portis did in 04.

True. I loved Byner!!!

[darksome]

And Byner averaged 3.8 yards a carry for that Super Bowl year. The same Portis did in 04.

Why does that guy call you Dr. Doom? Does he view you as the harbinger of a bad season? Or did he find a pic of you in here and likened you to the nefarious Marvel arch-villian?

Unless you are sporting #11 this year in B&G, how does he feel you can tilt the scales to the negative for our season? That's it! He thinks you ARE Ramsey in disguise! That is the only way he can be assured you are Victor Von Doom! Eureka!

But I know you aren't Ramsey. Know how? Because dude you be throwing, AND hitting them with some mean, matter of fact, sometimes subtle vibes!! Ramsey can't throw and hit anything! No way you can be him, ergo, you are not Dr. Doom!

Keep up the good work! I'm in stitches over here the way you screw up their so called facts. Hey anybody who recognizes Ramsey is a lame, in the face of adversity on this board, just like I do, is cooler than the other side of the pillow with me jack!

Play on!

[Death_Venom]

;)Originally Posted by akhhorus And Byner averaged 3.8 yards a carry for that Super Bowl year. The same Portis did in 04.

I kinda figured most would remember the running game ;)

[smoak]

Watch the film Smoak. The kid is dancing around even when he has "all kinds of time". When he actually DOES set up and throw, he's as good as anybody. The problem is that his mechanics are erratic, which leads to erratic throws. He must lead the league in INTs that have come of of some sort of deflection by his WRs. Better mechanics = better throws = less INTs. When he gets that fixed, then we can focus on his decisions making.

I'll preface this with saying that b/c of where I live, I don't get to see every game.

I started collecting some vid clips of the '04 season to make a "year in review" DVD (I know, why would anyone want to remember that). I started with the Vikings and Niners games and noticed that mechanically Ramsey looked a lot better than I thought he would. He was stepping into his throws well and not holding on to the ball too long or forcing as many stupid plays. Maybe the key is to keep him clean early in the game b/c I know I've seen play the way you describe, but I've qalso seen the poised determined Ramsey who doesn't fall apart just b/c we fall behind in a game. Now maybe the issue is that I downloaded highlights that were outside of the norm (again, the games aren't broadcasted here often).... but I really liked what I saw. My guess is that the "gittery" Ramsey comes out when the O-line lets him get hit/pressured early in the game?

[Chief Redskin]

I agree with Smoake, Ramsey's mechanics are improving. You gotta believe that Ramsey will have a breakout year with the revamped o-line. This is the second season the o-line is working w/ Bugel & Gibbs. Not to mention they picked up Raybach and Jansen is coming back. This will be the best offensive line that Ramsey has ever played behind. The line last last year was almost as bad as the line when Spurrier coached.

I do agree that Ramsey's mechanics can be jittery at times, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Alot of QB's get a little jittery.. I have seen Pennington and P. Manning get jittery. I think Ramsey has the confidence this year, coming in as the starter is a big improvement. Add to that, the combination of new receivers and a revamped line and we should see Ramsey lead us into the playoffs.

[BurgundyNGold]

I agree with Smoake, Ramsey's mechanics are improving. You gotta believe that Ramsey will have a breakout year with the revamped o-line. This is the second season the o-line is working w/ Bugel & Gibbs. Not to mention they picked up Raybach and Jansen is coming back. This will be the best offensive line that Ramsey has ever played behind. The line last last year was almost as bad as the line when Spurrier coached.

I do agree that Ramsey's mechanics can be jittery at times, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Alot of QB's get a little jittery.. I have seen Pennington and P. Manning get jittery. I think Ramsey has the confidence this year, coming in as the starter is a big improvement. Add to that, the combination of new receivers and a revamped line and we should see Ramsey lead us into the playoffs.
He might throw it well 2/3 or maybe even 3/4 times. It's that 3rd or 4th time that kills us. That's the pass that ends up as an INT or it's on 3rd down when we really need the completion to keep the drive alive. IMO, as long as his mechanics improve, he is more than adequate to take this team into the playoffs.

[smoak]

He might throw it well 2/3 or maybe even 3/4 times. It's that 3rd or 4th time that kills us. That's the pass that ends up as an INT or it's on 3rd down when we really need the completion to keep the drive alive. IMO, as long as his mechanics improve, he is more than adequate to take this team into the playoffs.

True, but I'd rather have a guy who still makes a couple mistakes than a QB who just occasionally shows flashes of brilliance. I don't remember how many picks Ramsey threw in the Dallass game, but one hot a WR in the hands and another was just an amazing play by Newman... He had one against the Vikings which I don't remember... One REALLY STUPID one against the Iggles... So I think that makes either 4 or 5 total INTs in the last 5 games??

-----Never mind, I am looking up his stats-----

Basing it on his last 5 games (when we started playing better), if you told me Ramsey would throw 22 TDs and 12 INTs with 200 yds per game (in '05), I'd say we were in the playoffs. I am worried about him regressing and throwing closer to 1:1 in the TD to INT ratio.

---------------------------------------------

Everyone from Gibbs to Jimoh needs to better in the clutch. As good as our defense was, they cost us a couple games in clutch spots. 3rd down conversions are going to be HUGE this year and we need to improve in that area. Dumping Coles and Gardner will hep as both had the dropsies in '04. Mr. Portis can't lay the ball on the ground when we're driving for the go ahead score. Hall/"K to be named later" can't miss from inside 45 yards with the game on the line.

Winning is about fostering that attitude of cionsistently doing what it takes to come out on top (the cliche "little things"). I think we'll improve in '05 and '06... How far we improve is up to the players and how well they buy into what the coaches are selling.