Age and Experience vs. Youth and Enthusiasm

[darksome]

We have drafted some pretty good looking guys IMO. Some of which will not see a lot of playing time due to them being just that - rookies. We have some pretty good young guys from last year.

We also have some aging veterans, that have played solidly, but not necessarily in a fashion that we can expect will get us into the playoffs this upcoming year.

So this is about guys who have been in the league two years or under, vs. guys who have been in for 3 or more years.

Now we all know Joe Gibbs' way of playing veterans and relegating rookies/young'uns to the bench. But the way you fight the war has changed since Gibbs' last tenure. He himself has noticed that from just the clock management and some of the rules. We looked terrible making adjustments.

A lot of the mistakes came from veterans. Guys who get paid large salaries, with a lot of years under their belt making false starts (Samuels and Brown), dropping passes in key, tight game situations (Coles and Gardner), and do I really have to write about Brunell?

I am not saying we should throw caution, along with our season, out the window and go with a majority of the young guys, but how can it be much worse? McCune, Chris Clemons, Molinaro, Mark WIlson, Nemo, Carlos Rogers, Taylor Jacobs, and White. How do they stack up against the veterans already here, and the FAs? Will they get a fair shot to start? Or will they just be along as an insurance policy? I didn't list any DEs because we really don't have anyone solidified as a fixture there. I also left the JC and Ramsey issue off because we have talked about that enough.

So should Gibbs abandon the old ways and really, (not just the made for TV poker faced replies he gives - like "Ramsey is the future for us and championships") really give these guys a chance to compete for quality time on the field, if not in fact start, or should it be business as usual. Also, do you think that we would have a better chance with the new guys instead of the old? Not at all of the positions, just some. And if he does stick with his old ways, do you think he will make changes during the year to correct them? Like for example, on third and goal (from the 2 yard line), should he run a bigger back like Nemo (rookie), or stick with Portis or Betts (veterans)?

If all of the people that started last year, start this year, I don't feel we are going anywhere, again. IMO.

[RedskinsVision]

young guys will always be given a chance to compete for starting jobs or key backup roles.. Gibbs have always loved competition and knows it will help young guys improve and keep older guys on their toes. but Gibbs usually doesn't like starting rookies and neither does G. Williams.. but there's always exceptions. Gibbs have started to build this team the way he wants with FA and the draft.. the guys he's brought in the last 2 years are his type of players.

as for adjustments i think we've already started seeing some of it.. by bringing in Musgrave as QB coach who's offensive philosophies differ from Gibbs and have already started to implement the ideas of the shotgun.. the speedy receivers brought in to open up the deep passing game.. he's brought in short yardage/HB type players to pound the ball in the redzone and short yardage situations. there should be only 2 new starters on D (CB and MLB) and about 3 new starters on O (2 WR's and C).. minimal change to the core, building depth and strong special teams.. bringing in high character players.. and we have ourselves something closer to being a team Gibbs have envisioned.. not totally in his image yet but getting there.

[GMUskinsfan]

i think every rook gets his chance in camp, and whenever a vet doesn't play up to potential i know the coaching staff won't hesistate to go to an overacheiving rook. With that plus injuries and i'd say every guy gets his fair shot this season or the next.

[darksome]

i think every rook gets his chance in camp, and whenever a vet doesn't play up to potential i know the coaching staff won't hesistate to go to an overacheiving rook. With that plus injuries and i'd say every guy gets his fair shot this season or the next.

If that was the case last year, then Betts would have been used more in goal line or short yardage situations.

[redskinz#1fan]

We have some very strong rookies/ FA's and I believe that they will all get a fair shot of starting or playing a significant back-up role. They will determine their own fate. Just like the Vet's will determine their role on the team. I have a lot of confidence in what has been going on the last couple of months. I really could care less who gets the start at any position, just as long as they are giving 110% and making a contributing factor to our team that will lead to us being victorious. Just my take on things! I just hope that Gibbs can have the same results that he had in his 2nd year the first time around. :)

[Carmelo]

I think I'll let the preseason tell the tale on this one. I feel it's all about the player and what they show us, or more importantly, the coaches. I'd love to see some of these no name younger guys step up though. I'm always a fan of the underdog.

[hail2skins]

I think there will be fair competition. As far as some of the rooks surplanting vets, I'm not sure. It will depend on how much they pick up in training camp. A lot of the players last year had to think about their assignments but this year, that shouldn't be the case for returning vets. The rookies will be tested because they'll get alot of stuff thrown at them early and often and the must keep up. Remember, Gibbs watered down his system early last year too.

[GWBlitzST]

What did our team lack last year on offense? Explosiveness. We went out and got two receivers that can stretch the field, and our nastiest offensive lineman and team leader back at a critical position. Ray Brown not having to play the tackle position will be a major upgrade in our running game. The addition of Rabach basically makes the left side of our OLine one of the best in the league, whereas last year it was one of the worst. I think Randy Thomas will step up big this year and we will see the line domination of Joe Gibbs' last tenure here.
I do believe that Nemo or White will get their chance at short yardage situations, and hopefully we will have better play calling near the goal line that Portis or Cooley will be able to score from the 7 or 8 yard line, if Santana Moss hasn't caught a 70 yard bomb by Patrick Ramsey already.
I think with Musgrave in, the review of last year's film, and the new and returning personnel, we will be markedly improved from last year.

[darksome]

What did our team lack last year on offense? Explosiveness. We went out and got two receivers that can stretch the field, and our nastiest offensive lineman and team leader back at a critical position. Ray Brown not having to play the tackle position will be a major upgrade in our running game. The addition of Rabach basically makes the left side of our OLine one of the best in the league, whereas last year it was one of the worst. I think Randy Thomas will step up big this year and we will see the line domination of Joe Gibbs' last tenure here.
I do believe that Nemo or White will get their chance at short yardage situations, and hopefully we will have better play calling near the goal line that Portis or Cooley will be able to score from the 7 or 8 yard line, if Santana Moss hasn't caught a 70 yard bomb by Patrick Ramsey already.
I think with Musgrave in, the review of last year's film, and the new and returning personnel, we will be markedly improved from last year.

A lot of people don't feel the offense has been upgraded enough. I guess we will have to wait and see on that one.

[Spence]

One of the reasons the Redskins have relied so much on veterans in recent years is that they've drafted so poorly.

[CNYSkinFan]

One of the reasons the Redskins have relied so much on veterans in recent years is that they've drafted so poorly.

Or traded their draft picks for the vets in the first place. It was a chicken and the egg situation. They drafted poorly, so they went out and got some vets using their future draft picks to get them. THen they had to go get vets to plug holes because they had no picks.

[The Skinsinator]

I definetely feel there will be an open competition present come July. May the best man win the spot and make the least mistakes. The drops should be a heavily improved spot by getting rid of 50/50 and Coles. It is indeed imperative that the oline eliminate alot of mistakes. I think Buges and a year in the system for him/the players will aid this alot.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

i think the coaches give the young guys a fair chance to earn the starting jobs, but they also know who is ready to play big time minutes and who isnt. i think in some cases where the talent gap isnt much of a difference, the players that understand their system, whether they are the most talented or not, are the ones who get the starts first. we played a good amount of young players last season and some had huge impacts (namely, cooley and taylor). as the season went on, we saw more and more undrafted rookies hitting the field and getting some PT probably after they got used to the speed of the game and got the hang of the system.....

[Spence]

Or traded their draft picks for the vets in the first place. It was a chicken and the egg situation. They drafted poorly, so they went out and got some vets using their future draft picks to get them. THen they had to go get vets to plug holes because they had no picks.Yeah, I think that's a good point. The team drafted so poorly that I think they came to view it as less risky to trade draft picks for veterans than to make the picks themselves. Sort of a George Allen philosphy except that it doesn't work so well in the era of free agency, where almost all draft picks are cheaper than signing veteran players. So you wind up with a mediocre team that still manages to spend an ungodly amount of money.

Like the Mets.

[DUCKIN_TACKLERS]

If that was the case last year, then Betts would have been used more in goal line or short yardage situations.
Betts no way IMO..I understand what people say about a big back Vs Portis but this is my thing. In your opinion who was better around the goal line last year Tiki or Dayne, Martin or Jordan, Holmes or Johnson. Look Portis is a great back and his vision can not be taken for granted the guy knows how to get in the endzone but last year you could have piggybacked portis on Betts back and they still wouldnt have gotten that first down. the penetration from the D was widespread with multiple holes being filled by extra men in the box. If we had a backup like bettis who nemo may turn out to be like then okay let him tote the rock once in awhile but dont take the ball out of an All-Pro running back and give it to someone who isnt an All-pro yet. IMO big does not equal first down remember Dlineman are big too.

[DUCKIN_TACKLERS]

To reply to the main post question... I think some Rooks will show up and push Vets out the door but most of them where on the way out anyway like Barrow or Ray Brown possibly or Raymer. Im glad we are getting younger at spots that is what continuity is about but if a rook gets on the Squad trust me he earned it. Vets tend to be more prepared to make the right play due to the amount of reps they see but if a Rookie can cover his mistakes with superior athletacism(Sp?) then he will get the spot and eventually take those reps from the Vet. That the way it should be IMO.

[darksome]

Betts no way IMO..I understand what people say about a big back Vs Portis but this is my thing. In your opinion who was better around the goal line last year Tiki or Dayne, Martin or Jordan, Holmes or Johnson. Look Portis is a great back and his vision can not be taken for granted the guy knows how to get in the endzone but last year you could have piggybacked portis on Betts back and they still wouldnt have gotten that first down. the penetration from the D was widespread with multiple holes being filled by extra men in the box. If we had a backup like bettis who nemo may turn out to be like then okay let him tote the rock once in awhile but dont take the ball out of an All-Pro running back and give it to someone who isnt an All-pro yet. IMO big does not equal first down remember Dlineman are big too.

Aaiight Duck! Heckuva point! You right about that!

[darksome]

i think the coaches give the young guys a fair chance to earn the starting jobs, but they also know who is ready to play big time minutes and who isnt. i think in some cases where the talent gap isnt much of a difference, the players that understand their system, whether they are the most talented or not, are the ones who get the starts first. we played a good amount of young players last season and some had huge impacts (namely, cooley and taylor). as the season went on, we saw more and more undrafted rookies hitting the field and getting some PT probably after they got used to the speed of the game and got the hang of the system.....

I will never, ever, ever say chicks don't know football again!

You go girl! Very good points! I think that it is harder to get those minutes in a Gibbs system though. For instance, look at how Mark Rypien flew way under radar on IR before he was unleashed that fine statistical year we went to the bowl. We had some of our best stats that year though!

[COUNCILMAN]

I think the Skins biggest problem over the last 12 years has been drafting people or getting free agents and then STICKING WITH THEM too long. All successful coaches have drafted players who don't work out. But the difference between coaches like Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells and lets say...coaches like Norv Turner...is that winning coaches admit their mistake and move on. Its like an assembly line...NEXT.

This is what I see Coach Gibbs doing. Everybody had a fresh start last year in Gibbs first year. Rod Gardner could not and would not adjust..put out the work ethic...and so NEXT. Coles doesn't want to have surgery and he complains about not getting the ball with 90 catches....so NEXT.

Ramsey is on the hot seat also. He hasn't been part of a winning team but thats because he hasn't been surrounded by winners. So Gibbs is giving him an opportunity to play with an upgraded offense by getting rid of 50/50 and bringing in a center who doesn't hold on every play and aquiring a receiver who doesn't have a broken toe and can get deep.

I think we have the best of both worlds when you talk about veterans or young guys. Moss is 25 years old. He is a vet and is young. Taylor Jacobs is in his 3rd year like Ramsey. So we have young guys who can grow together, but we have the aging veteran in Patten who can show them a work ethic and brings more Superbowl rings to the football family.

The defense infused a ton of new talent last year and it paid dividends. Now the special teams is being almost totally rebuilt. I don't think there is any question that this team will be younger this year and filled with more competition than last year at a number of spots.

Also, this is a great thread and is something worth talking about right through summer camp and pre season because Gibbs is not locked into ANYBODY as a starter anymore. I think last year changed all of that. Everybody has to prove he can win the starters job this year.

[STaylor36boom]

Id go with a high concentrate of youth with a slight mixture of experience.

[darksome]

So Gibbs is giving him an opportunity to play with an upgraded offense by getting rid of 50/50 and bringing in a center who doesn't hold on every play and aquiring a receiver who doesn't have a broken toe and can get deep.

I think we have the best of both worlds when you talk about veterans or young guys. Moss is 25 years old. He is a vet and is young. Taylor Jacobs is in his 3rd year like Ramsey. So we have young guys who can grow together, but we have the aging veteran in Patten who can show them a work ethic and brings more Superbowl rings to the football family.

I finally found something I agree with you on. He still has to complete the pass though. If a RB drops out in the flat, with no LB around, you don't have to throw a rocket to him (especially one he has to reach for). Just get the ball to him timely, and let the play develop. That is the type of progress that I am waiting to see this guy make. The right throw, at the right time.

Agree?