Team Name...just because [Archive] - hailRedskins.com Fan Board

rskinsfan10

07-05-2003, 10:30 AM

If there was a way to poll every native american, and if a great portion of them, not even a majority, but a great portion IMO, speak out against the name then I think that it should be changed. I say a great portion because sometimes the majority winning doesn't give an accurate account of how the masses feel. 60% to 40% wins for the majority, but to me says that there are too many voices that cannot be ignored. We're talking about a name folks. It doesn't make the the team, nor does it make the players or coaches perform any differently. If it were about the name then we wouldn't be in this holding pattern that we have been in since '92 with only one divisional title and no SB trophies. The name and the tradition of that name hasn't won us jack in awhile. I'm not saying that I want the name changed, but if enough people are offended by it then I say do away with it. We as a people cannot walk around and tell others what they should and should not be offended by. It has nothing to do with political correctness but all to do with human beings showing their right voice how they feel about something that effects them personally.

LadyNRedskinsfan

07-05-2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by NeFan
How about something like the Bears did.

The Red Skins brought to you by Coppertone

Leave the name alone……………
LMAO!:lol1: :funpost: :sun:

...anyways...i vote NO. there is too much tradition wrapped up in the name.

baralufficus

07-05-2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by rskinsfan10
If there was a way to poll every native american, and if a great portion of them, not even a majority, but a great portion IMO, speak out against the name then I think that it should be changed. I say a great portion because sometimes the majority winning doesn't give an accurate account of how the masses feel. 60% to 40% wins for the majority, but to me says that there are too many voices that cannot be ignored. We're talking about a name folks. It doesn't make the the team, nor does it make the players or coaches perform any differently. If it were about the name then we wouldn't be in this holding pattern that we have been in since '92 with only one divisional title and no SB trophies. The name and the tradition of that name hasn't won us jack in awhile. I'm not saying that I want the name changed, but if enough people are offended by it then I say do away with it. We as a people cannot walk around and tell others what they should and should not be offended by. It has nothing to do with political correctness but all to do with human beings showing their right voice how they feel about something that effects them personally. No offense ....but that is Bullcrap...Just cause SOME Native Americans find in offensive DOES not mean the name should be changed ...

Everyday , i hear musicians singing/rapping , and saying some very offensive stuff...Does that mean they should have to change what they are saying ????

America is about Freedom of speech and what not ....we are a free country ....I vote to keep it that way ....If something is offensive to somebody ...then they should turn their cheek and ignore it ...that is what i do when i find something offensive ..

HTTR ~

rskinsfan10

07-06-2003, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by baralufficus
No offense ....but that is Bullcrap...Just cause SOME Native Americans find in offensive DOES not mean the name should be changed ...

Everyday , i hear musicians singing/rapping , and saying some very offensive stuff...Does that mean they should have to change what they are saying ????

America is about Freedom of speech and what not ....we are a free country ....I vote to keep it that way ....If something is offensive to somebody ...then they should turn their cheek and ignore it ...that is what i do when i find something offensive ..

HTTR ~

No, bullcrap is you only taking what you wanted from my post. Bullcrap is saying that just cause SOME natives are offended the name shouldn't be changed. Bullcrap is not respecting the views of a people who have been dissed and pissed on in this so called great, free country since the first person from Europe stepped foot in America. Comparing what a rapper says about someone in a song and a caricature on a side of a helmet is bullcrap. Saying that just because you live in a country with freedoms and those freedoms allow you to openly offend someone is bullcrap. Bullcrap is saying that just because you may turn the other cheek when someone offends you, so everyone else should do the same. That same freedom that you speak highly of gives these people that are offended the right to speak out and voice there displeasure about the name. Don't spit out the word freedom when it is convenient for your argument and not realize that it applies to those that don't share your views. And you are not to allowed to freely speak as you say. Yell "fire" in a crowded room when there isn't one or have a telephone conversation and use the words "you want to kill the president" and see how the Secret Service reacts to your freedom of speech.

Lastly, bullcrap is not being able to respond to my post with your disagreement without using the word bullcrap. If you don't agree with what I said, then fine, don't. Try not to shit on someone else's thoughts or beliefs next time.

rskinsfan10

07-06-2003, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by baralufficus

America is about Freedom of speech and what not ....we are a free country ....I vote to keep it that way ....If something is offensive to somebody ...then they should turn their cheek and ignore it ...that is what i do when i find something offensive ..

This is the part of your post that I find highly ridiculous. It spews nothing but ignorance IMO. If black people before my time on this earth had taken this approach then my family and I wouldn't enjoy a night out in a nice restaurant enjoying the company of everyone there, because they should have just ignored the offensive behavior and acts that they had to deal with. Rosa Parks should have ignored her tired feet and just gave up her seat on that bus. I probably wouldn't be able to enjoy this forum openly with the other fans here, who happen to be of different racial makeups. Turning the other cheek is not acceptable to all folks in all situations.

DallasSux

07-06-2003, 08:36 PM

No way

Spence

07-07-2003, 12:31 PM

I like the sound of Washington Warlords.

rskinsfan10

07-07-2003, 01:12 PM

Let me say this:

This has been and always will be a very sensitive and controversial topic. All topics that deal with race in this country usually are. While we collectively as a nation have made tremendous strides, there is still alot of work to be done.

I personally take serious issue with anyone saying how a particular race or culture of people should feel about their own thoughts as they pertain to their ancestry and the struggles that they may have had to endure, and how they should deal with it. As I stated before, I don't think that anyone has the right to tell anyone how they should feel about something that effects them personally. Sometimes it's difficult to see where people are coming from if you have never had to endure their shortcomings. On a personal note, I had to endure a terrible inner family fued some years ago because someone said something about someone else, which she found to be hurtful and disrespectful, but the name caller felt that she shouldn't have gotten so worked up over it just because. I've always felt the way I feel about the subject, but that instance within my own family strengthened those beliefs.

My point in this controversy is that there are so many other names that can be used for mascots. Think about it. They are being used in the same variences as some wild animals. Should many not be offended by that? What other race of people are used as mascots in this country? Outside of Irish, I cannot think of any. Before someone throws out Cowboys or Vikings or Raiders, those are names of groups of people. Not to be confused with a race of people.

As I said before, I would prefer not to change the name, but I think that it should be done to mend feelings and relations. I just don't correspond a name change to equalling the end of the world as some have implied, and I see nothing bad that could come from it. I've even read many times where people have said that if the name is changed that they will no longer support the team. That I cannot and will never understand.

My main point to this post is to tell all of you guys and gals that we welcome this discussion here. The more discussion the better. My temper seemingly flared up in my previous posts, and I'm trying to explain why it happened in this post. I just want everyone to know that although this is a subject full of sensitivty, we can all discuss it with civilty, and that includes myself.

Unless of course you are from an opposing team and your intent is to flame. Then the gloves come off.

Carry on..........:)

baralufficus

07-07-2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by rskinsfan10
No, bullcrap is you only taking what you wanted from my post. Bullcrap is saying that just cause SOME natives are offended the name shouldn't be changed. Bullcrap is not respecting the views of a people who have been dissed and pissed on in this so called great, free country since the first person from Europe stepped foot in America. Comparing what a rapper says about someone in a song and a caricature on a side of a helmet is bullcrap. Saying that just because you live in a country with freedoms and those freedoms allow you to openly offend someone is bullcrap. Bullcrap is saying that just because you may turn the other cheek when someone offends you, so everyone else should do the same. That same freedom that you speak highly of gives these people that are offended the right to speak out and voice there displeasure about the name. Don't spit out the word freedom when it is convenient for your argument and not realize that it applies to those that don't share your views. And you are not to allowed to freely speak as you say. Yell "fire" in a crowded room when there isn't one or have a telephone conversation and use the words "you want to kill the president" and see how the Secret Service reacts to your freedom of speech.

Lastly, bullcrap is not being able to respond to my post with your disagreement without using the word bullcrap. If you don't agree with what I said, then fine, don't. Try not to shit on someone else's thoughts or beliefs next time. wow , i guess you did take offence ....First off let me say this ....The team we route for is the Redskins...we as fans love that name , and do nothing to piss and crap on that name ...we all worship the Redskins ...So just cause i am proud of the name and team that happens to be "Redskins", then me as an American is shitting on Native Americans ???...I am not denying the fact that some of our ancesters did treat the Native Americans shity , and stole their land and ladies ....

MY POINT IS...What does that have to do with the name of a Football team ....I have heard from many Native Americans ...one happens to live next door to me, and he said that all this crap about the Redskins, and the names of pro sports is coming from Native Americans that are seeking attention ...as a matter of fact , he said that if there is one professional sports teams that is even a little offensive , it is the "Indians"....he said more Native Americans find the word Indian more offensive then anything else , plus the way the Indian is protrayed like a cartoon is also offensive ...

I don't mind people speaking out about what offends them ....but i will speak out if it makes the team i love change their name ...i love football , and i love the Skins ..The Fans don't go around pissing on the name Redskins ...from what i know , us Skins fans respect the tradition and never talk bad about our favorite team or Native Americans for that matter ....

BTW , I said no offence , hoping you would not be offended ....But i stick by my opinion in calling your opinion bullcrap ...Aint that what we do everyday on this message board ???...we talk about the :"Redskins"...When another fan comes in here and shits on our team , we take it in stride , and shit on their team .....that is football ...this is a place to talk football ....try to relax a little ....

HTTR ~

wait is HTTR offensive also??

baralufficus

07-07-2003, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by rskinsfan10
This is the part of your post that I find highly ridiculous. It spews nothing but ignorance IMO. If black people before my time on this earth had taken this approach then my family and I wouldn't enjoy a night out in a nice restaurant enjoying the company of everyone there, because they should have just ignored the offensive behavior and acts that they had to deal with. Rosa Parks should have ignored her tired feet and just gave up her seat on that bus. I probably wouldn't be able to enjoy this forum openly with the other fans here, who happen to be of different racial makeups. Turning the other cheek is not acceptable to all folks in all situations. why is this discussion turing into a racial debate ???

Let me just say this ....I have grown up in the "ghetto" my whole life...I know what racism has done to this great country ....for you to take what i said about the name Redskins , and switch it up makes me feel offended ....But i take it in stride ....i have been a victom of many rasist moments in the ghetto....I have stood in the same line with some very close friends of mine , and seen how many people are still rasist to this day ....But this a football forum people...

HTTR ~

rskinsfan10

07-07-2003, 02:16 PM

I guess my last post didn't mean a damn thing to you. So be it.

First of all, when did I say that YOU pissed and dissed anyone? You have seemingly taken great pride and joy in taking what you want to from my posts. So, show me where I accused you or anyone in particular in this thread of doing so. You cannot, because I did not. I personally do not LOVE anything about that name, so speak for yourself. I love the TEAM, the actual PLAYERS THEMSELVES.

I happen to partly be of native american ancestry (Cherokee), and I'm telling you that THIS part native american doesn't care for the name. I could give a rats ass what your neighbor thinks or feels, because he doesn't speak for everyone that has a personal stake in the matter, nor do I. The fact is that many natives can't stand the name, and they have the right to wish that it wasn't so.

Again, you are talking about a damn sports team's mascot in relation to a race of people. Will this team go up in flames because of a name change? Will they play like the worst franchise ever because of a name change? If this team was named the Blacks, or Hispanics or even Whites, should those that aren't of any of those racial backgrounds simply walk around and tell those that are that may be offended "suck it up because we like this name and that's all that matters". That may be your simple minded opinion, but don't try to act as though it is the only opinion. Well I guess you can try whatever the hell you want to, but that shit will not fly here.

Lastly, please read this last paragraph, over and over if you must. You will not come in here and call someone's opinion bullcrap unprovoked. Comparing that to what occurs when dealing with other teams fans doesn't fly. I'm here to tell you that thinking that you can and will do that on this board is BULLSHIT!! And the shit stops here. Like it or not, I could care less! You stated that someone's opinion, that yours differed from, was bullcrap. Although many folks before me posted that they didn't want the name to change, did I say anywhere that their opinions on the subject were bullcrap? I guess "I disagree" to start off your rebuttal just couldn't do, huh? No, you try and relax a little. Don't throw out advice that you can't seem to use yourself.

rskinsfan10

07-07-2003, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by baralufficus
why is this discussion turing into a racial debate ???

Let me just say this ....I have grown up in the "ghetto" my whole life...I know what racism has done to this great country ....for you to take what i said about the name Redskins , and switch it up makes me feel offended ....But i take it in stride ....i have been a victom of many rasist moments in the ghetto....I have stood in the same line with some very close friends of mine , and seen how many people are still rasist to this day ....But this a football forum people...

HTTR ~

Obviously you aren't as smart as you think you are. Maybe the word Redskins isn't registering to you as of one that effects a race of people. It has always been a racial debate.

Again, I see you are taking what you want from my post. I guess you can not see the correllation of that post and your remark about turning the other cheek and where balck people would be in this country if they didn't react the way they did to offensive behavior.

And the ghetto pedigree that you have is great. I'm happy for you. I have one too. At this pointit means absolutely nothing to me in this discussion.

I could care less that you are offended. You told me that me and my people shouldn't be offended by the name Redskins, or that we should turn the other cheek, so I say to you oh well.

PennSkinsFan

07-07-2003, 02:31 PM

Glad to have done my part in bringing this topic up.:D

rskinsfan10

07-07-2003, 02:34 PM

Yes, as usual you are to blame....:rpunch:

dj_stouty

07-07-2003, 03:33 PM

I just found out an interesting tidbit of info on the web:

"In 1933, when the name was changed to the Washington Redskins, the team was coached by Lone Star Dietz, who was part Sioux."

Anyway, back to the question at hand...

I don't doubt that there are Native Americans who find the name "Redskins" offensive. I'm sure that many feel that way. But, as rskinsfan10 said; there is no real way to poll the entire Native American public to see what their opinion is. But even if we could...is there a magic % number that would need to be established before we can deem the term "Redskins" as offensive? 51%? 40%? 5%? 0.5%? That is a whole 'nother debate for another time, I guess.

I can only answer the question at hand from my experience with the term "Redskin". I see it as the name of my favorite Football team. Plain and simple. I don't use the word in any derogotory fashions, and I never would. In fact, I've never even heard someone use the word "Redskin" in a derogotory manner. I'd be interested to know if anyone on the message boards have ever heard it used in modern day as a derogotory statement. Id also like to go out on a limb and say that the Washington Redskins organization may have single handedly "destroyed" the negotive connotations of a once harmfully used word. I may be wrong....but I'd like to throw that out there for discussion.

baralufficus

07-07-2003, 03:42 PM

well said

HTTR !!!!

Keino

07-07-2003, 04:00 PM

I feel the name should be changed. I won't go into all the reasons that Kenny stated, but I will say that the name sparks an inner conflict for me being a fan of the team. This is not about Political correctness, but righting a wrong. We are talkin about a group of people who not only had their homeland stolen from them, but a people who are reduced to sports mascosts to add insult to injury.
Let's not forget, no matter what the Team tries to say, the Term "Redskin" was used as a Racial Perjorative, much like the "N" word, or the "K" word for those who are jewish. No matter how hard we try we cannot seperate the origins of the word from this discussion. If there was a team called the "Eurotrash" or "Honkeys" or go forbid the "N" word, I think more people would be up in arms. That this only offends a portion of the less than 1% of the Native peoples in this country has further peripheralized their persepctive.

One last point. My favorite team is the Washington Football team. I will always love this Team. I don't care if they change ther team name to the Landover Hoodlums. I think there is a way the team can compromise with the native peoples. Maybe lose the Charicature (Despite how handsome, a charicature is a Charicature), call ourselves the Washington Warriors and still retain the color shceme. Use the Arrow instead. Seems to be a reasonable solution....the point Im making is that a simple name change will not do any irreparable harm to the tradition that is Washington Football.

rskinsfan10

07-07-2003, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by baralufficus
well said

HTTR !!!!

Yeah what he said was well said.

Take notes on how he did it.

baralufficus

07-08-2003, 03:21 AM

Originally posted by rskinsfan10
I guess my last post didn't mean a damn thing to you. So be it.

well, to be honest ....i was typing my responce to the previous post , so i didn't see it untill after i posted my post

First of all, when did I say that YOU pissed and dissed anyone? You have seemingly taken great pride and joy in taking what you want to from my posts. So, show me where I accused you or anyone in particular in this thread of doing so. You cannot, because I did not. I personally do not LOVE anything about that name, so speak for yourself. I love the TEAM, the actual PLAYERS THEMSELVES.

listen dude , you obviously took what i said , and twisted it to your liking also ....I was saying that if Native Americans find the word "Redskins" offensive , then that must mean every time you or me , or any other "Redskins" fan says "Go Redskins", then that must mean i am dissing and pissing on them them every time i cheer for the "Redskins", right ??....I mean, think about it ....These Native Americans that feel offended must feel this way from the "dissing and pissing" they have recieved since our "ancesters" took America from them when Columbus frist landed on this country ....I guess when you chose the words you use , some people form their own opinions about it ....remember , you were the one mentioning the Native Americans as being pissed and dissed on over 200 years ago..

I happen to partly be of native american ancestry (Cherokee), and I'm telling you that THIS part native american doesn't care for the name. I could give a rats ass what your neighbor thinks or feels, because he doesn't speak for everyone that has a personal stake in the matter, nor do I. The fact is that many natives can't stand the name, and they have the right to wish that it wasn't so.

I have some native american ancestry also my friend ...Hell, my sons mother is half Native American (Cherokee also)....a large amount of people have native american ancestry , due to some very cruel acts some of our Ancesters layed upon the native americans....BTW , alot of Native Americans don't care about the word "Redskins"...especially with it not being used in a derogatory manner ....and yes , the fact is that many natives can't stand the name, and they do have the right to "WISH" that it wasn't so ....Does that mean the name should be changed ???....I hear "White Boy" everyday on the radio....If i wished that the people saying that should not say it , should they be forced to ??

Again, you are talking about a damn sports team's mascot in relation to a race of people.

exactly, now see how immature this topic sounds ....That is my point ....the "Redskins" is a football team ...Not some orginization abusing and using the word "Redskins" in some derogatory manner

Will this team go up in flames because of a name change? Will they play like the worst franchise ever because of a name change? If this team was named the Blacks, or Hispanics or even Whites, should those that aren't of any of those racial backgrounds simply walk around and tell those that are that may be offended "suck it up because we like this name and that's all that matters". That may be your simple minded opinion, but don't try to act as though it is the only opinion. Well I guess you can try whatever the hell you want to, but that shit will not fly here.

Lastly, please read this last paragraph, over and over if you must. You will not come in here and call someone's opinion bullcrap unprovoked. Comparing that to what occurs when dealing with other teams fans doesn't fly. I'm here to tell you that thinking that you can and will do that on this board is BULLSHIT!! And the shit stops here. Like it or not, I could care less! You stated that someone's opinion, that yours differed from, was bullcrap. Although many folks before me posted that they didn't want the name to change, did I say anywhere that their opinions on the subject were bullcrap? I guess "I disagree" to start off your rebuttal just couldn't do, huh? No, you try and relax a little. Don't throw out advice that you can't seem to use yourself. [/B] wait , i was not the one pissed here ....you fliped out on me, even after i said "no offence" before i even typed what i typed in my original responce .....I said "no offence" first because i respected you as a person , and did not wish to offend you ...

But if you wish to ban me, then do so ....I am not going to beg for your forgiveness

HTTR ~

Spence

07-08-2003, 08:04 AM

Let's just relax a bit. No one is going to ban anyone because of a disagreement like this. This is a lively board. If we banned people just because they disagreed with us, there'd be about three people left--which means two admins would have also been banned. We don't do things that way here. Baralufficus, you've been here long enough to know that.

I think the name is very troublesome and I'd probably change it--to the Washington Warlords, as I indicated. Tradition is nice, but generally that's the argument used when all other arguments fail. I don't buy that. Nobody here is embarrassed by the tradition of the Redskins. The team was very racist once--and longer than other teams in the NFL--but that has been overcome. If all America had dealt with its history of racism as well as the Redskins have dealt with [I]their history of racism, the entire country would be better off now. So changing the name isn't a matter of turning our backs on the history of the team. Changing the name is a matter of recognizing how far the team has come and bringing the name into line with that improvement. At least, that's how I see it.

I don't sit up nights thinking about this topic, but it is worthy of discussion. I must admit that I tend to care more about how we did in the NFL draft than the appropriateness of the the name Redskins, but if it were left up to me, I'd change the name and end the discussion forever.

It isn't up to me, however. My guess is that eventually the name will be changed, but for business reasons. There are considerable legal problems associated with the name now. Copyright protection for a name considered legally offensive is difficult or impossible to obtain. Sooner or later, dollar signs will carry the argument. They usually do.

PennSkinsFan

07-08-2003, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by Spence
Let's just relax a bit. No one is going to ban anyone because of a disagreement like this. This is a lively board. If we banned people just because they disagreed with us, there'd be about three people left--which means two admins would have also been banned. We don't do things that way here. Baralufficus, you've been here long enough to know that.

Yeah Like he said!:goodpost:

Bara, you have been here too long pal. You know banning members does not come lightly here and is because of repeated personal attacks. You can argue point for point with whoever you wish. kenny has no desire to ban any member, including yourself. Some people get fired up over certain topics, and I can see why this one does as well. BUT, Bara, it is just an argument, you ain't going anywhere and we wont let you:D Fact is, this community is one fo the very best I have ever been on, everyone here adds flavor to each discussion in thier own unique way, you do as well, you are adament in your defense of the Redskins name, just like Kenny is adament that the name is a wrong. That is that. Keep arguing:D :sfight:

As for me, i am tron. I love the Redskins, I love the tradition and history, but I also respect a culture that was wronged. I voted to keep the name simply because it is my sentimental favorite cause I grew up with it, but there is a tearing inside me that understands the opposing argument and even understands it and agree in principal to it.

TexSkin

07-08-2003, 08:44 AM

This subject always brings up debate....I love the team andf its history more then the name...if they change I guess I will have an excuse to go out and by all new merchandise!! :Peace:

AZ#1SkinsFan

07-08-2003, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by Spence
I like the sound of Washington Warlords.

That might offend some of the US Veterans out there . . . try again . . . :rolleyes: everything is offensive to someone . . . its not about freedom of speech, freedom of speech gives us the rights to use the name "RedSkins" . . . YES . . . freedom of speech does NOT take away our morals and IF using the name "RedSkins" really is hurting the majority of Native Americans then we should look at the human side of the matter and Change the name . . . should we be forced to . . . NO . . . should we . . . MAYBE . . . the Native American communities accross America should vote and voice their oppinions so we can trully make an edjucated decision

Spence

07-08-2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by AZ#1SkinsFan
That might offend some of the US Veterans out there . . . try again . . . :rolleyes:

I don't think so. I've never heard of any veterans group protesting the name of the Golden State Warriors or the name of Soldier Field. Comparing racial nicknames like "Redskins" to soldiers is not a good analogy.

The fact is, not everyone is offended by any name. Look over the vast majority of professional sports teams in this country and find out how many deal with name controversies. Hardly any. Essentially, teams with Amerindian-centered names face protests. Virtually no one else does.

CarMike

07-08-2003, 01:46 PM

I will post this one more time. This is where the name "Redskins" were founded from.

This info was taken straight from the 2002-2003 media guide:

'Redskin' through the years...

Red Cloud. Red Thunder. Red Eagle. Redlands. Red Mud.

"The term Redskin, applied by Europeans to Algonquians in gerneral and the Delawares in particular," says the Reader's Digest in its book America's Fascinating Indian Heritage, "was inspired not by their natural complexion but by their fondness for vermilion makeup, concocted from fat mixed with berry juice and menerals that provided the desired color." The men "would streak their faces and bodies with bright red ocher and bloodroot," adds the Reader's Digest.

Indians painted their skin for decorative and ceremonial purposes. "Red is generally accepted as being one of the colors most easily available to and most used by Indians," as Ronald P. Koch states in his book Dress clothing of the Plains Indians.

rskinsfan10

07-08-2003, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by baralufficus
wait , i was not the one pissed here ....you fliped out on me, even after i said "no offence" before i even typed what i typed in my original responce .....I said "no offence" first because i respected you as a person , and did not wish to offend you ...

But if you wish to ban me, then do so ....I am not going to beg for your forgiveness

HTTR ~

Yeah, I was the one pissed, because you, unlike everyone else here who disagreed with me , chose to term my opinion as bullcrap. Obviously you don't seem to find any problem with that style of approach. As I said before, I guess a simple "I disagree" to start your post would have been too much for you. I guess you needed to describe my opinions and feelings on a subject that touches me personally as bullcrap. Throwing a nice little "no offense" before changing your tone doesn't soften the blow.

As far as being banned, who said you were about to be banned? I said that the unprovoked attacks on someone's (in desribing them as bullcrap or any other term that that poster may take offense to) opinions will not be tolerated. In deep respect for my fellow owners and admins that have just posted, you can and will be banned if you choose not to heed warnings that have been given to you. As they already stated, banning doesn't come easily around here. We can count the amount of members banned on one hand, and that only occured after repeated warnings to tighten up. I didn't ask you to beg for anything. I have not communicated with you about this subject beyond the posts that I have made to you on this thread, so where this begging for forgiveness bullcrap (to use your word) comes from, only you can answer that.

rskinsfan10

07-08-2003, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by AZ#1SkinsFan
IF using the name "RedSkins" really is hurting the majority of Native Americans then we should look at the human side of the matter and Change the name . . . should we be forced to . . . NO . . . should we . . . MAYBE . . . the Native American communities accross America should vote and voice their oppinions so we can trully make an edjucated decision

Those are basically my feelings in a nutshell. The part of my racial makeup that is Cherokee is small IMO, which is one reason why I have never publicly disclosed it before, except for when I took issue with Peter King's article last year about the Funky4. I don't feel that I have a right to make a decision in this regard because I cannot honestly say that I have endured the hardship that has been put before the Native American race. I think that the voices of all full blooded Natives should be polled.

I have never thought that this team meant to cause any Native American harm by using the name and the caricature that everyone identifies this team with. I know of no instances that where anything of that nature has ever occurred. That however doesn't translate IMO to the feeling that as long as that hasn't happened, then full blooded Natives should be cool with the name.

Although the media guide offers that as the teams position on where the name was derived as far as the team is concerned, there are Natives that associate the term Redskin to being scalped, with the enemy being told by those that led them to bring their "scalped, red skins" back as proof that the kill had been made. Again, I tend to believe the media guide as far as the intention of the name as far as the team goes, but do realize that to many that are of this culture that name means something totally different.

hamptonskinsfan

07-09-2003, 01:35 AM

not gonna get into the legallities here. i'll just say i voted for the keeping of the name. but i understand where the native americans are comming from but what's next? PETA starting to petition teams that use animals cause they either use actual animals or they portray the animals in a comic way.. I guess the animosity comes from the fact that not only do they want to take away the redskins but the braves, indians, warriors, seminoles, chiefs, of all of them i believe that the redskins may be the most offensive, but it was not meant to be a slander on the native americans, i mean really, when the team was started, i'm sure they didnot sit around and say "hmmm who can we offend" IF people actually thought it to be a negative thing then why did they use it??? i mean using the "N" word would have been just as bad if you listen to people and i dont think a team with that moniker would have been around. People say get rid of the face on the side of the helmet but if you look at that face it is of a proud warrior. enough i have said enough. by the way, if we were to change it "warlocks" would definately be just as offensive to die hard christians for the fact that they believe that magic of anykind is evil, therefore they would not support it.

RODDY

07-09-2003, 05:06 AM

This is crazy. We should not even be discussing this. The name of the team is the REDSKINS. It is represented with honer to Native Americans and that should be enough. What people mean when they use a term is whats really important..

Oh and rskinsfan10 - you need to get over yourself dude!

PennSkinsFan

07-09-2003, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by hamptonskinsfan
not gonna get into the legallities here. i'll just say i voted for the keeping of the name. but i understand where the native americans are comming from but what's next? PETA starting to petition teams that use animals cause they either use actual animals or they portray the animals in a comic way.. I guess the animosity comes from the fact that not only do they want to take away the redskins but the braves, indians, warriors, seminoles, chiefs, of all of them i believe that the redskins may be the most offensive, but it was not meant to be a slander on the native americans, i mean really, when the team was started, i'm sure they didnot sit around and say "hmmm who can we offend" IF people actually thought it to be a negative thing then why did they use it??? i mean using the "N" word would have been just as bad if you listen to people and i dont think a team with that moniker would have been around. People say get rid of the face on the side of the helmet but if you look at that face it is of a proud warrior. enough i have said enough. by the way, if we were to change it "warlocks" would definately be just as offensive to die hard christians for the fact that they believe that magic of anykind is evil, therefore they would not support it.

Good points Hampton. I can see the offense with Redskins. But, Braves, CCheifs, Seminoles, etc....Please taht si going too far. I guesws the Cowboys shoudl change there name as well, because that iod deragatory to those who were frontiersman, but maybe did not like the term Cowboys. How about Patriots? Aren't we belittleing these fin importnat me that founded this country by putting a Patriot logo on a football helmet for God Sakes!

Like I said, I agree Hampton, I can see the offense at 'Redskins' but not tribe or title names like seminoles or cheifs. Would any of you find it awkward or insenstive to have team names "Blackskins", "YellowSkins", "Whiteskins"...i think so, is this not the same thing?

dj_stouty

07-09-2003, 09:31 AM

The subject of the LOGO has been brought up. Lets take a look at the logos of the Indians and Redskins:

Washington Redskins:
http://www.thesle.com/nfl/was/nfl-was-00t.gif

Cleveland Indians:
http://www.thesle.com/mlb/cle/mlb-cle-00t.gif

I clearly think the Washington logo gives more respect than a cartoon character with a dumpy grin, IMO.

CarMike

07-09-2003, 09:41 AM

I don't see nothing derogatory in the name "Redskin". In my previous post, It states what the true meaning is behind the name Redskin. Its not talking about the color of a persons face. Its what they painted their face before going into battle.

Leave the name alone

PennSkinsFan

07-09-2003, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by CarMike
I don't see nothing derogatory in the name "Redskin". In my previous post, It states what the true meaning is behind the name Redskin. Its not talking about the color of a persons face. Its what they painted their face before going into battle.

Leave the name alone

Right, but, insnesitivity does not comign from 'real meanings' insensivitivty and derogatroy can be taken anyway. Come on Mike, woudl you name a team "Blackskins"?

rskinsfan10

07-09-2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by RODDY
This is crazy. We should not even be discussing this. The name of the team is the REDSKINS. It is represented with honer to Native Americans and that should be enough. What people mean when they use a term is whats really important..

Oh and rskinsfan10 - you need to get over yourself dude!

I need to get over myself? Why, because I don't share the same opinions as you? Why, because I choose to argue my thoughts on this sensitive subject, one that touches me personally?

Maybe you, the one that just said that all those that have chosen to talk about this, regardless of their opinions, shouldn't be talking about this, should get over himself.

I'll get over myself as soon as you get over yourself.

BTW, if you feel so strongly that something shouldn't even be discussed, try to just ignore it next time. Trust me, it does wonders.

CarMike

07-09-2003, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by PennSkinsFan
Right, but, insnesitivity does not comign from 'real meanings' insensivitivty and derogatroy can be taken anyway. Come on Mike, woudl you name a team "Blackskins"?

When was there ever a time when someone used "Redskin" in a derogatory manner? "Hey, F you Redskin"?

My point being that Redskin isn't about a group of people. It's about what Indians painted on their faces before going to battle. Just because it sounds like its about the color of ones face, thats not the true meaning of "Redskin" when it was brought about being the name of a football team.

Why can't it just be meant for the sole reason that its meant to be? Honor.

rskinsfan10

07-09-2003, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by CarMike
When was there ever a time when someone used "Redskin" in a derogatory manner? "Hey, F you Redskin"?

My point being that Redskin isn't about a group of people. It's about what Indians painted on their faces before going to battle. Just because it sounds like its about the color of ones face, thats not the true meaning of "Redskin" when it was brought about being the name of a football team.

Why can't it just be meant for the sole reason that its meant to be? Honor.

Mike,

As I've said before in this thread, as opinionated as I am about this topic, I openly admit that I know of no instance whatsoever that this orginization has done anything with malice in regards to Native Americans. They have never offered any kind of senseless promotion that anyone should take offense to. Like I said earlier, although the media guide offers the reasoning as to why the name Redskins was chosen for this franchise, many Natives relate that word "redskins" to when their ancestors were scalped. Eventhough bad intentions are never meant to be made in many instances, that doesn't mean the results of those actions aren't hurtful to many.

CarMike

07-09-2003, 06:26 PM

Kenny, I understand where you are coming from. And I respect your feelings on this matter. I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one Kenny.:)

rskinsfan10

07-09-2003, 09:57 PM

And I understand and respect your perspective also. :cool:

Spence

07-09-2003, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by RODDY
This is crazy. We should not even be discussing this.

You might not be in the right place, Roddy. We discuss issues like this all the time and will continue to do so. If you are uncomfortable or offended by the open discussion of controversial issues this Web site probably isn't for you.

RODDY

07-10-2003, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by rskinsfan10

Lastly, please read this last paragraph, over and over if you must. You will not come in here and call someone's opinion bullcrap unprovoked. Comparing that to what occurs when dealing with other teams fans doesn't fly. I'm here to tell you that thinking that you can and will do that on this board is BULLSHIT!! And the shit stops here. Like it or not, I could care less!

Ill defend my position, anyone who spews a tirade like this needs to get over himself, just a little bit.

And Spence, I really feel that this topic is senseless. The organization carries the name with great pride and honor. We should expending our efforts to try and convey this, not dragging up why it could be construed as negative.
The Yankees could be construed as negative, Still used as a negative term in some areas of the south. Should we change the name?

And last, this is my opinion. Are you suggesting that I am not welcome on this whole site because we disagree. Wow!

Redbeard

07-10-2003, 08:39 AM

1 WHITE PEOPLE SHUT UP: a poll was done at one point by espn to exclusively native americans on whether THEY found the name offensive. 80% said they DID NOT FIND IT OFFENSIVE. So I personally wish white americans would stop telling me its offensive. (half of which just use it to villianize a team they already didn't like, the other half are members of political "isms" trying to create an imaginary PG-13 world)

2 SHUT PEOPLE UP BY CHANGING IT: That being said, I have gone 180-degrees on this since my youth from when I would counter change it to the Washington Pale Faces and put George Armstrong Custer on the helmet. I now wish they would change the name not because it's offensive but to shut people up. For the record I am a 3rd generation Redskin Fan who grew up in DC. When I left DC in my 20s (returning later in my 30s) there was never an issue outside of washington metropolitan EVER only here.

3 REDSKINS WERE BOSTON TEA-PARTIERS NOT INDIANS: as most Pro-name changers don't know (as their opinions are bassed on ignorance & pseudo-moral zeal) the Redskins were named after the collonials made famous by Boston Tea Party raids (as the one guy previously refered). When the Boston Redskins were moved to Washington the name was kept but the mascot changed because the had won a championship under the Redskins name.

4 THE WASHINGTON MAROONS: the Pottsville Marroons were the team in the 1920s that was moved & turned into the Boston Redskins and later Washington Redskins. They were the only team to go undefeated in 1924 (I think? about), and won the championship game & were officially awarded
& proclaimed the champions. They were later uncerimoniously stripped of the championship because they went barnstorming across the nation that year as was custummary of the time but there was a discrepancy about the approval of one of the games. Ironically the Championship was awarded to the Chicago Cardinals (and I think to this day it is the Cardinals only championship, yes the now Arizona Cardinals). There is currently a movement to have that championship restored to the Pottsville Maroons. So why not?

Keino

07-10-2003, 08:57 AM

Actually Redbeard they were called Boston Braves.

As far as your assertion about the Boston Tea Partiers, you wil find that those who participated dressed up as "Indians" so they could participate in the protest without fear of Reprisal. The last thing these Tax protesters wanted was for British troops to visit their Businesses and homes and know who they are.

Again, It doesn't matter that the Team intends no offense. The fact is the word was imposed on the natives by European settlers as Carmike points out. Furthermore, it was not an endearing term, but a Perjorative.

I guess those Natives who protest putside of the stadium were not included in your ESPN Poll. ....by the way, do you have a link to this poll, or were you just repeating what you saw?

Spence

07-10-2003, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by RODDY
And Spence, I really feel that this topic is senseless. The organization carries the name with great pride and honor. We should expending our efforts to try and convey this, not dragging up why it could be construed as negative.
The Yankees could be construed as negative, Still used as a negative term in some areas of the south. Should we change the name?

And last, this is my opinion. Are you suggesting that I am not welcome on this whole site because we disagree. Wow!

Please pay attention to what I write before replying to me. Once again, here is what I typed to you in response to your post that we shouldn't be discussing the issue:

"You might not be in the right place, Roddy. We discuss issues like this all the time and will continue to do so. If you are uncomfortable or offended by the open discussion of controversial issues this Web site probably isn't for you."

If you read that carefully this time, you will see that at no time did I assert or imply that differing opinions are not welcome here. In fact, I made it clear just the opposite is true. It is you, Roddy, that wrote we shouldn't be discussing the issue. What I wrote was that this Website encourages free and open discussion of all topics, including controversial ones. I don't much care if you agree or disagree with me, all I insist on is that topics such as this one are not off limits. The other administrators, including those--like CarMike--who disagree with me about changing the name, are in complete agreement with me that topics such as this one are valid and important. [Notice how CarMike argues his position against mine using facts instead of just telling me to shut up because this topic cannot be discussed. Whatever your viewpoint, that is the attitude we want to encourage here.]

Free and open debate of all issues--trivial or controversial--is at the very heart of any successful and interesting message board. That is the sort of message board we have and want to keep here at hailRedskins.com. I think I can speak for all the Admins when I write that as long as we're running the place, that's how it is going to be.

Roddy, I don't want you or anyone else to leave the Website just because you disagree with me or another Admin about any particular issue. Disagree away. I like a good argument as well as the next guy. One of the ways we ensure there are always plenty of good arguments to be found here is by encouraging topics such as this one. If that is not the sort of message board you like, you won't like this place at all. If, on the other hand, you enjoy a friendly argument, you'll find this is the best Redskins fan Website on the Internet. I hope that is the attitude you will take and that you will stick around.

I hope we are clear on all that now.

hail2skins

07-10-2003, 09:39 AM

Very well said Spence.

CarMike

07-10-2003, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by hail2skins
Very well said Spence.

yep, very well said Spence.

RODDY. I happen to agree with a lot of what you said. I feel the same way as you. At the same time, we do encourage all posters to express themselves and their feelings. Thats what a MB is for.

How boring of a place would this be if we all agreed with each other 100% of the time? I'd get very tired of it if it were that way.

Lets all remember this too. We're all bonded by the love of the Redskins. Rather you're pro or con for the name of Redskins....

PennSkinsFan

07-10-2003, 09:56 AM

I disagree with all of you!:banghead:

Redbeard

07-10-2003, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by Keino
Actually Redbeard they were called Boston Braves.

As far as your assertion about the Boston Tea Partiers, you wil find that those who participated dressed up as "Indians" so they could participate in the protest without fear of Reprisal. The last thing these Tax protesters wanted was for British troops to visit their Businesses and homes and know who they are.

Again, It doesn't matter that the Team intends no offense. The fact is the word was imposed on the natives by European settlers as Carmike points out. Furthermore, it was not an endearing term, but a Perjorative.

I guess those Natives who protest putside of the stadium were not included in your ESPN Poll. ....by the way, do you have a link to this poll, or were you just repeating what you saw?

1 BRAVES TANGENT: they were called boston redskins, among otherthings, add what you like.

2 INDIANS vs. TEA PARTIERS TANGENT: so you agree the redskins were settlers not indians - THANKYOU. add what you like.

3 80% AMERICAN INDIANS DO NOT FIND IT PEJORATIVE: and they TRUMP YOU. The protesters WERE INCLUDED, that the 20%. (sorry your not as well represented as you would like others to believe) The pole was reported on ESPN tv years ago during one of the numerous previous campaigns for name change.
BY THE WAY ARE YOU AMERICAN INDIAN??? (just a hunch *lol*)

4 I'M FOR NAME CHANGE: but not for your reasons. And not that it matters so please spare the histrionics - *lol* the english & everyone knew it was settlers. The costumes were to hide their identity like a nylon stocking over the face, not CHANGE it *lol*. There was now confusion over who was responsible, thats WHY the term redskin was coined to distinguish between real indians.

5 SO WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE WASHINGTON MAROONS??

PennSkinsFan

07-10-2003, 11:05 AM

Washington Monuments

:lol3:

jporterweb

07-10-2003, 01:12 PM

Wow, this has become a great debate. So I want to throw in my 2 cents. First of all, this country has made great strides when it comes to race. However, these great strides are costing the people whos ancestors made mistakes. Because of the past, Blacks get favor over whites in some cases. Example: At my job, I am one of the top 1-3 people in statistics each day. However, I am still a temporary employee. Now there were 45 temps in this departament. Now, 41 of those have been hired on. The only ones that did not get hired on was me and 3 other white males. the 4 of us were the only white males, and we are the only ones of the temps that have been ignored when it comes to the hiring. Even though I have the best stats of the 80 people in this department, and I got looked over.Now, I could take that as Reverse Racisim. Or I could just realize that it's life, some people get left out for whatever reason. So, for those that think the name is racist, they are just looking for a reason to complain. It's quite obvious to me that I was discriminated against, but I've not gone to the civil rights unions or anything. I've just chilled and not worried about it. NOw while this doesn't have much to do with the Redskins thing, it's an example of how race affects everyone, not just Blacks and Native Americans. The thing that I find that pisses me off so much about this debate, is that with the Redskins, the Indian is revered. The mascot is a very prominent warrior that the Indians should be proud of! It's something to honor those people. I've also said before that if you have a problem with the Redskins, then we can't have teams called Cowboys, 49ers, Bucaneers, Raiders, Patriots, Giants, Vikings, Wizards, Rangers, Islanders, Devils, Yankees, Mariners, Pirates, and thats just to name a few. My point is, if we would looking at color and race and type in this country we wouldn't have these arguements. I'm sick of living in a world where something you say that means one thing could mean something totally differemt and offend someone. And I'm sure that I'm probably going to offend someone with evertthing I've written. I just have one point. They shouldn't change the name, and they should never be made to.

RODDY

07-10-2003, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by Spence

"You might not be in the right place, Roddy. We discuss issues like this all the time and will continue to do so. If you are uncomfortable or offended by the open discussion of controversial issues this Web site probably isn't for you.

.

Green-Is-Good

07-10-2003, 01:40 PM

why not change the name to the Washinton Braves? that way, we can keep the logo. it is not offensive either.

Spence

07-10-2003, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by jporterweb
Wow, this has become a great debate.

I'm glad someone noticed. Great debate is what this site is all about.

Spence

07-10-2003, 01:51 PM

You might be getting it, RODDY. Now all you have to decide is whether or not free and open debate makes you uncomfortable. When you figure that out, you'll know if this is the right website for you. Here's hoping you do stick around, RODDY. We want you here. The more, the merrier.

RODDY

07-10-2003, 01:53 PM

Spence, The fact that I fell a name change should not be an option and wasnt worth discussing is my opinion. you dont have to like it, but to suggest I go away? Well you should be above that.

The place isnt for me because of one post on a topic. Swift jugement. Kind of ironic to give the reason as being unconfortable with open discussion, when at the same time we were debating on Off Topics. But then again your behavior was similar there also.

Spence

07-10-2003, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by RODDY
Spence, The fact that I fell a name change should not be an option and wasnt worth discussing is my opinion. you dont have to like it, but to suggest I go away? Well you should be above that.

The place isnt for me because of one post on a topic. Swift jugement. Kind of ironic to give the reason as being unconfortable with open discussion, when at the same time we were debating on Off Topics. But then again your behavior was similar there also.

For the last time, Roddy, I have not suggested you leave. I keep suggesting otherwise. Please read before you write. Thanks.

Skinzaholic

07-10-2003, 03:39 PM

I thought about changing my name.:)

rskinsfan10

07-10-2003, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by RODDY
Ill defend my position, anyone who spews a tirade like this needs to get over himself, just a little bit.

And Spence, I really feel that this topic is senseless. The organization carries the name with great pride and honor. We should expending our efforts to try and convey this, not dragging up why it could be construed as negative.
The Yankees could be construed as negative, Still used as a negative term in some areas of the south. Should we change the name?

And last, this is my opinion. Are you suggesting that I am not welcome on this whole site because we disagree. Wow!

I've read over and over several of your posts. I've also read over and over the posts of a couple of my co-owners in which they seemingly have had to tell you more then once that no one is trying to run you or anyone that offers differing opinions away. My point is, it doesn't surprise me that you pointed to my post while seemingly neglecting what caused the reaction that you quoted, since you seem to only want to pick up on certain aspects of what was said. That post wasn't my first in this thread. It was a reaction to something that I personally took offense to, something that was said directly to me, not you. I consider your little one-liner to me, which happened to come within a thread of a topic that you said shouldn't even be discussed, yet here you are discussing it as a form of the pot calling the kettle black. That coming from bara would have been understandable. I wouldn't have liked it, but it would have made more sense. You seemingly wanted to inject yourself within his and my personal tussle, which again I find utterly amazing because you feel as though this shouldn't even be a topic of discussion here. Having said all of that, I again offer you this compromise. Whenever you want to meet me in the 5th floor conference room at hR Inc., in the Getting Over Yourself Dept., I'm sure we can hammer out a deal that will make both parties happy. My calender is open. Just remember, I can't do my part until you do yours.

Keino

07-10-2003, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Redbeard
1 BRAVES TANGENT: they were called boston redskins, among otherthings, add what you like.

2 INDIANS vs. TEA PARTIERS TANGENT: so you agree the redskins were settlers not indians - THANKYOU. add what you like.

3 80% AMERICAN INDIANS DO NOT FIND IT PEJORATIVE: and they TRUMP YOU. The protesters WERE INCLUDED, that the 20%. (sorry your not as well represented as you would like others to believe) The pole was reported on ESPN tv years ago during one of the numerous previous campaigns for name change.
BY THE WAY ARE YOU AMERICAN INDIAN??? (just a hunch *lol*)

4 I'M FOR NAME CHANGE: but not for your reasons. And not that it matters so please spare the histrionics - *lol* the english & everyone knew it was settlers. The costumes were to hide their identity like a nylon stocking over the face, not CHANGE it *lol*. There was now confusion over who was responsible, thats WHY the term redskin was coined to distinguish between real indians.

5 SO WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE WASHINGTON MAROONS??

1. The Team was called the Boston Braves, Here's a quote from the team's history:
"George Preston Marshall was awarded the inactive Boston franchise in July 1932. He originally named the team "Braves" because it used Braves Field, home of the National League baseball team."
Here is the Link http://www.haruth.com/WashRedskinsHistory.html
I was merely trying to point out to you that the team name was Braves before Redskins.

2. Im not sure anyone has ever claimed that Real "Indian" People were responsible for the Boston Tea Party. Not sure I understand your point. The reason I stated I thought was common knowledge. Guess not. The Settlers disguised themselves as "Indians" so they would not be recognized. Im pretty sure thats exactly what I said.

3. Until you produce this alleged poll, I can do nothing but take it with a grain of salt. I didn't say the word is used as a perjorative TODAY, but the originial use of the word was. Furthermore, My Great Grandmother on my Mother's side was 100% Cherokee. And I am personally offended by the name. To take it even further, given the poor history of Racial Equality in this nation, as a HUMAN BEING the Name offends me.

4. It's a shame that you come to such a Just conclusion with such faulty reasoning. I guess sometimes the ends do justify the means:p

5. I detest the name Maroons.

RODDY

07-10-2003, 09:26 PM

Are U saying u would like to fight me? I guess your very sensative. Please try to calm down.

rskinsfan10

07-10-2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by RODDY
Are U saying u would like to fight me? I guess your very sensative. Please try to calm down.

Thank you for verifying your intelligence level, sir. It makes alot of this back and forth with you alot clearer now.

RODDY

07-10-2003, 10:01 PM

OOPs now watch it my friend, your very close to that personal attack line. Just looking out for ya. You can thank me latter buddy.

rskinsfan10

07-10-2003, 10:05 PM

I am thanking you. Again for further verifying my suspicions. I can't thank you enough as a matter of fact.

RODDY

07-10-2003, 10:09 PM

Anytime

Chief Seeway

07-10-2003, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by Skinzaholic
I thought about changing my name.:)

:D

baralufficus

07-11-2003, 05:16 AM

Originally posted by rskinsfan10
Yeah, I was the one pissed, because you, unlike everyone else here who disagreed with me , chose to term my opinion as bullcrap. Obviously you don't seem to find any problem with that style of approach. As I said before, I guess a simple "I disagree" to start your post would have been too much for you. I guess you needed to describe my opinions and feelings on a subject that touches me personally as bullcrap. Throwing a nice little "no offense" before changing your tone doesn't soften the blow.

For somebody that doesn't take "bullcrap" lightly, you sure had no problem deeming a part of a previous post of mine as "ignorance".....2 wrongs don't make it right buddy....So i slung a little mud your way ...and yes , you threw it right back....big deal ...But IMO, i think you seeing a part of my post as "ignorance" is just as offensive as callings yours "bullcrap", don't you think???

[/B] Do the rules apply to everyone??

If so , then i think you broke the same rule as i did ....Forgive me for speaking in such a manner to a admin of this fine MB ....Before you flip out on me , try to think about what you type also ...

HTTR ~

PennSkinsFan

07-11-2003, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by seeway
:D

Hey Skinz....what would you change your name too?

Skinzaholic

07-11-2003, 08:29 AM

Fat Hairy White Boy

TexSkin

07-11-2003, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by Skinzaholic
Fat Hairy White Boy

Oh good lord now that what the hell would that logo look like!

Hailyeah

07-11-2003, 12:08 PM

Wow, this thread took most of my lunch time to read. Alot of verbal fisticuffs here. Nice.

I voted to keep the name. I can appreciate the validity of the argument that if it were somehow revealed that an overwhelming majority of native americans were personally offended by the name then it should be changed. Thats a good thought. Completely hypothetical, but thats OK. I just come back to the fact that we all (in the forum, in DC area, in this country) have bigger fish to fry than this. Bigger issues that would prevent this from ever being a real keep or not keep situation. Does everyone at least agree with that? In the end, this is a nonissue just because there's not much teeth behind banning the name. I honestly can understand the argument to ban, but people are being far more wronged currently through a variety of more serious infractions. Say, for instance, an unlawful and unjust pre-emptive strike and occupation of a sovereign nation. I'm not trying to start a new debate. Just trying to put the name change topic in perspective. No topic, it seems, is undebatable.

Redbeard

07-11-2003, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by Keino
1. The Team was called the Boston Braves, Here's a quote from the team's history:
"George Preston Marshall was awarded the inactive Boston franchise in July 1932. He originally named the team "Braves" because it used Braves Field, home of the National League baseball team."
Here is the Link http://www.haruth.com/WashRedskinsHistory.html
I was merely trying to point out to you that the team name was Braves before Redskins.

2. Im not sure anyone has ever claimed that Real "Indian" People were responsible for the Boston Tea Party. Not sure I understand your point. The reason I stated I thought was common knowledge. Guess not. The Settlers disguised themselves as "Indians" so they would not be recognized. Im pretty sure thats exactly what I said.

3. Until you produce this alleged poll, I can do nothing but take it with a grain of salt. I didn't say the word is used as a perjorative TODAY, but the originial use of the word was. Furthermore, My Great Grandmother on my Mother's side was 100% Cherokee. And I am personally offended by the name. To take it even further, given the poor history of Racial Equality in this nation, as a HUMAN BEING the Name offends me.

4. It's a shame that you come to such a Just conclusion with such faulty reasoning. I guess sometimes the ends do justify the means:p

5. I detest the name Maroons.

1. BOTH REDSKINS & BRAVES: I was aware, thank you. The championship they won in 33?ish was as the Boston Redskins which remains on title the today. Which is why I wondered why you'd take exception except to be misleading.

2. SETTLERS VS. "INDIANS": there was never any question whether the "redskins" who raided the Boston tea party were settlers or real indians, among anyone. Which is why I wondered what was your point.

3. THE POLL: the poll is truth on my honor. I don't value the argument enough to lie (& even). If it is convenient for you to discount if - fine. BUT, DON'T SPEAK TO ME EITHER OF WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK WITHOUT EQUAL DOCUMENTATION. Funny how standards apply to other but not oneself. I trade you grains of salt.

3b. AS HUMAN BEING ALSO! I FIND IT UNOFFENSIVE: *lmao* do you think that being a human being distinguishes you & your argument from me or anyone in this chatroom?? ;)

4. SHAME YOU WOULD DEMEAN THE REDSKINS AND FANS AS RACIST: under such modern political times the Redskins still consistantly out sell others. Are they racist too?

5. HATE THE MAROONS??: why pray tell? It may not charm you - but its hardly offensive? (maybe a C grade)

Redbeard

07-11-2003, 12:21 PM

KEINO: A great grandmother?? Without documentation I'll take you at your word. Even so you have completely validated my hunch (please see #1 of my first post)

Keino

07-11-2003, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by Redbeard
1. BOTH REDSKINS & BRAVES: I was aware, thank you. The championship they won in 33?ish was as the Boston Redskins which remains on title the today. Which is why I wondered why you'd take exception except to be misleading.

2. SETTLERS VS. "INDIANS": there was never any question whether the "redskins" who raided the Boston tea party were settlers or real indians, among anyone. Which is why I wondered what was your point.

3. THE POLL: the poll is truth on my honor. I don't value the argument enough to lie (& even). If it is convenient for you to discount if - fine. BUT, DON'T SPEAK TO ME EITHER OF WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK WITHOUT EQUAL DOCUMENTATION. Funny how standards apply to other but not oneself. I trade you grains of salt.

3b. AS HUMAN BEING ALSO! I FIND IT UNOFFENSIVE: *lmao* do you think that being a human being distinguishes you & your argument from me or anyone in this chatroom?? ;)

4. SHAME YOU WOULD DEMEAN THE REDSKINS AND FANS AS RACIST: under such modern political times the Redskins still consistantly out sell others. Are they racist too?

5. HATE THE MAROONS??: why pray tell? It may not charm you - but its hardly offensive? (maybe a C grade)

Redbeard, I wil try to explain my position in a way you can understand. It is clear to me that you haven't read all of the pages on this thread, because you would have seen me answer some of these questions you raise.

1. You're right, They were called the Boston Redskins as well. I didn't take exception, I just wanted to point out that the 1st name was Braves.....Nothing more nothing less.

2. My point was simply this. That the Settlers dressed up as "American Indians" and painted themselves red to avoid reprisal action by the Brits. That was my point. To illustrate that your assertion that the Term "Redskin" comes from the Boston Tea Party is absolutely incorrect. As stated earlier by Carmike and the Team itself, the origin of the word comes from European Settlers IMPOSING the name on the Algunquin (sp?) tribe in Deleware. NOT THE BOSTON TEA PARTY. Here's your quote for reference :
"the Redskins were named after the collonials made famous by Boston Tea Party raids ".
Furthermore, IF YOUR RIDICULOUS ASSERTION WERE TRUE, EXPLAIN THE AMERICAN INDIAN LOGO, IF THE TERM 'REDSKIN' IS MEANT TO REPRESENT THE COLONIAL TEA TAX PROTSTORS. This ought to be a beauty! Im always interested to read some Revisionist History, if for no other reason than pure comic value.

3. Im sorry, Ive supprted all my arguments with documentation. The only opinions offered were my own. Since you cite an ESPN poll, I thought it would be pretty simple to find a link to it, since you've seen this poll. This is exactly what I wrote...tell me where I cite anyone else's opinon other than my own:
"3. Until you produce this alleged poll, I can do nothing but take it with a grain of salt. I didn't say the word is used as a perjorative TODAY, but the originial use of the word was. Furthermore, My Great Grandmother on my Mother's side was 100% Cherokee. And I am personally offended by the name. To take it even further, given the poor history of Racial Equality in this nation, as a HUMAN BEING the Name offends me. " I REJECT YOUR GRAIN OF SALT AS NON-APPLICABLE GIVEN YOUR REASONING. The Only Opinion Cited here is MY OWN.

BTW - IM not questioning the humanity of or dehumanizing anyone. My sensitivites to the feelings of other human beings are different from yours. Nothing wrong with that.

4. Do you read ? Please see above. I said that the word TODAY is not used as a perjorative, but the original use of the word was used as a racial perjorative. I'M A FAN OF THE TEAM. IM NOT CALLING MYSELF OR YOU OR ANYONE ELSE A RACIST. That has nothing to do with the word's origins.

5. As far as my great-grandmother is concerned, take it with a grain of salt if you wish, I don't give a ratz ass. I have never met the woman and have no way to document it. You asked me a question about my heritage and you got an answer. All I know about her is what I've been told. I have no reason to doubt my own mother. Why ask a question and then reject the answer when it doesn't fit your argument? Unless of course you intend to be misleading. :whoknows:

6. I only use the word "Hate" when talking about the Dallas Cowboys. I believe I said I "detest" the name, because in my opinion it sucks. I think Warlords or Warriors would be much more appropriate. We are talking football, not some Pansy A$$ sport like Field Hockey.

Skinzaholic

07-11-2003, 02:46 PM

We are talking football, not some Pansy A$$ sport like Field Hockey. [/B]

Oh Great! Here comes the Field Hockey crowd... offended! Will this PC game EVER end????;)

rskinsfan10

07-11-2003, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by baralufficus
Do the rules apply to everyone??

If so , then i think you broke the same rule as i did ....Forgive me for speaking in such a manner to a admin of this fine MB ....Before you flip out on me , try to think about what you type also ...

HTTR ~

Why do you care about rules all of a sudden? The rules are that you don't attack anyone here for their beliefs, which IMO you did. You seem to have a problem with the fact that you received a response with a tone that you didn't seem to feel was needed. Oh well. Again, think back to how all of this started. I didn't attack your thoughts and opinions first. Once that occurs, it is up to whatever admin or mod that can or will react quickly enough to admonish for your actions. It was you that threw the first punch. Keep saying that over and over to yourself. I had confidence that you would eventually see the light, but I'm beginning to think otherwise. In your mind it seems that I was wrong to not share your thoughts about this topic, because "you love football". And please give up the little "the admins are oppressing you act" that you and your buddy RODDY have going here. The fact that you were even able to type your previous post proves that angle to be a waste of time. You said alot worse earlier, yet you still are allowed to be a member here. You questioned whether this was a football MB earlier in this thread, yet all you seem to want to do is discuss this controversial topic, to which you are no longer adding any worthwile dialouge.

And for the record, ignorance means to not have knowledge of a particular subject. To help you better understand my post, I stated that your advice to just turn the other cheek to offensive behavior in relation to racial relations is not acceptable to those that feel that things involving their race need to be changed, and not just pushed aside. I then gave you some examples of how things could and would be different for a race of people if they had just turned the other cheek. Everyone, I mean everyone is ignorant to something in this world. No one knows it all. Before you get offended by someone using that word towards you, try gathering the true meaning of it. Now, unless the term bullcrap has taken on a new meaning, I'm pretty sure I know what it means.

Redbeard

07-11-2003, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by Keino
Redbeard, I wil try to explain my position in a way you can understand. It is clear to me that you haven't read all of the pages on this thread, because you would have seen me answer some of these questions you raise.

1. You're right, They were called the Boston Redskins as well. I didn't take exception, I just wanted to point out that the 1st name was Braves.....Nothing more nothing less.

2. My point was simply this. That the Settlers dressed up as "American Indians" and painted themselves red to avoid reprisal action by the Brits. That was my point. To illustrate that your assertion that the Term "Redskin" comes from the Boston Tea Party is absolutely incorrect. As stated earlier by Carmike and the Team itself, the origin of the word comes from European Settlers IMPOSING the name on the Algunquin (sp?) tribe in Deleware. NOT THE BOSTON TEA PARTY. Here's your quote for reference :
"the Redskins were named after the collonials made famous by Boston Tea Party raids ".
Furthermore, IF YOUR RIDICULOUS ASSERTION WERE TRUE, EXPLAIN THE AMERICAN INDIAN LOGO, IF THE TERM 'REDSKIN' IS MEANT TO REPRESENT THE COLONIAL TEA TAX PROTSTORS. This ought to be a beauty! Im always interested to read some Revisionist History, if for no other reason than pure comic value.

3. Im sorry, Ive supprted all my arguments with documentation. The only opinions offered were my own. Since you cite an ESPN poll, I thought it would be pretty simple to find a link to it, since you've seen this poll. This is exactly what I wrote...tell me where I cite anyone else's opinon other than my own:
"3. Until you produce this alleged poll, I can do nothing but take it with a grain of salt. I didn't say the word is used as a perjorative TODAY, but the originial use of the word was. Furthermore, My Great Grandmother on my Mother's side was 100% Cherokee. And I am personally offended by the name. To take it even further, given the poor history of Racial Equality in this nation, as a HUMAN BEING the Name offends me. " I REJECT YOUR GRAIN OF SALT AS NON-APPLICABLE GIVEN YOUR REASONING. The Only Opinion Cited here is MY OWN.

BTW - IM not questioning the humanity of or dehumanizing anyone. My sensitivites to the feelings of other human beings are different from yours. Nothing wrong with that.

4. Do you read ? Please see above. I said that the word TODAY is not used as a perjorative, but the original use of the word was used as a racial perjorative. I'M A FAN OF THE TEAM. IM NOT CALLING MYSELF OR YOU OR ANYONE ELSE A RACIST. That has nothing to do with the word's origins.

5. As far as my great-grandmother is concerned, take it with a grain of salt if you wish, I don't give a ratz ass. I have never met the woman and have no way to document it. You asked me a question about my heritage and you got an answer. All I know about her is what I've been told. I have no reason to doubt my own mother. Why ask a question and then reject the answer when it doesn't fit your argument? Unless of course you intend to be misleading. :whoknows:

6. I only use the word "Hate" when talking about the Dallas Cowboys. I believe I said I "detest" the name, because in my opinion it sucks. I think Warlords or Warriors would be much more appropriate. We are talking football, not some Pansy A$$ sport like Field Hockey.

Well I thank you for expressing your opinion civily. Which not all posts do (I do hate the potty-mouths). Even if I don't find your argument particulary salient.

1. BOTHE BRAVES & REDSKINS: Then we agree.

2. THE LOGO: here you really assume too much. But I will teach as much as your lack of humbleness will allow. Quite simply - The early logo were an "R" not unlike the Greenbay "G" or Chicago "C". As that was before the TV era, most people are more familiar with the 'indian profile' introduced so recently as by Jack Kent Cooke. And also the spear which preceded it in Sonny's time. Please, learn history don't deduce it/or assert it.

3. DOCUMENTING: Pay attention - you have claimed it offends people besides you. Speak only for yourself & let them speak for themselves. As I said in my First Post I'm tired white people telling me it's offensive to others. Let the others speak for themselves.
Also simply stop buying or patronizing Redskins events and capitalism will take care of the rest... if it is sooo offensive.

4. DO you READ: :smash: here you border on being flagrantly offensive (though I'm not offended). That you would seek to offend others while sermonizing of offensive behavior though, is amusing.
Don't mince words. I did not say you said fans were racist. Neither do I need to, I feel it is implied by association (and I am offended by it)... otherwise how could fans/purchasers embrace somehthing sooo offensive. Indeed how do you?
Act consistantly. If I thought if were offensive... I would dump the Redskins so cold & quick you wouldn't believe. And it wouldn't matter how much I like the team or football. Why don't you?

5. YOUR CHEREKEE GREAT GRANDMA: you have your great grandma I have my poll. You do not have to accept mine, I do not have to accept yours. I asked because once again Non-american Indians are saying its offensive. And really it only matters what american indians think not you.
I repeat, stop buying or patronizing Redskins events and capitalism will take care of the rest... if it is sooo offensive.

6. Hate/detest?? whatever rocks your wolrd?? So it's not offensive you just don't like the style? fine just say so minus the emotional outburst. Say what do you think of the Washington Pale Faces with George Armstrong Custer on the side of the helmet. By the way, how old you? Personally I think Warlords is gayier than Wizards, Warriors is tolerable though, I suppose it could grow on me.

Keino

07-12-2003, 01:48 AM

Redbeard I will always voice/discuss my opinions in a civil manner. Sorry that you were remotely offended by my question, but clearly you haven't read my earlier comments. My very 1st post on this thread said that Im very conflicted inside over it. I love football and this has been my home since birth. I was a Fan of the team before I was politically conscious. I can live with being a fan of the team and not a fan of the name, but I do thank you for your concern on how I reconcile my contradictions (We all have them).

I would like to add a few more points. I am not a White person, nor am I trying to tell you what offends others. I have seen with my own eyes the protesters. You are saying they are the vocal Minority. I have said prove it. You have yet to do so. For the second time, Please show me the post where I offered an opinion other than my own. I am also curious as to why you assume Im White.

Your points about the logo, quite frankly are immaterial. The point of my comments about the logo was that the general theme of the team has always been American Indians not Boston Tea Party Participants. I also believe you to be incorrect about the "R" Logo. I thought that was only worn for the years Lombardi was coach. The first "logo" or helmet design was the feather also associated with Native American culture. The term Redskin is meant to equal American Indian. That you continually argue otherwise insults my intelligence.

Lastly, don't ask me questions if you truly do not want to know the answer. You asked what I thought I of the name, I told you. When you asked me why, I told you. Don't act like your feelings are hurt now especially after implying that I would lie about my own family heritage. To answer your question, I loathe the name Washington Pale Faces as well, and why in the world would anyone want Custer on the Helmet? That just sends the message that you get slaughtered. :doh:

Oh I am 30 By the way.

Redbeard

07-12-2003, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by Keino
Redbeard I will always voice/discuss my opinions in a civil manner. Sorry that you were remotely offended by my question, but clearly you haven't read my earlier comments. My very 1st post on this thread said that Im very conflicted inside over it. I love football and this has been my home since birth. I was a Fan of the team before I was politically conscious. I can live with being a fan of the team and not a fan of the name, but I do thank you for your concern on how I reconcile my contradictions (We all have them).

I would like to add a few more points. I am not a White person, nor am I trying to tell you what offends others. I have seen with my own eyes the protesters. You are saying they are the vocal Minority. I have said prove it. You have yet to do so. For the second time, Please show me the post where I offered an opinion other than my own. I am also curious as to why you assume Im White.

Your points about the logo, quite frankly are immaterial. The point of my comments about the logo was that the general theme of the team has always been American Indians not Boston Tea Party Participants. I also believe you to be incorrect about the "R" Logo. I thought that was only worn for the years Lombardi was coach. The first "logo" or helmet design was the feather also associated with Native American culture. The term Redskin is meant to equal American Indian. That you continually argue otherwise insults my intelligence.

Lastly, don't ask me questions if you truly do not want to know the answer. You asked what I thought I of the name, I told you. When you asked me why, I told you. Don't act like your feelings are hurt now especially after implying that I would lie about my own family heritage. To answer your question, I loathe the name Washington Pale Faces as well, and why in the world would anyone want Custer on the Helmet? That just sends the message that you get slaughtered. :doh:

Oh I am 30 By the way.

INNER CONFLICT?? that is a conflict which is easily resolved. Human decency over footbal. If I thought for a moment if was derogatory I'd dump the Redskins so quick it make your head spin.
This are my finding, benifit from them if you can. These facts were for my moral resolution, because unlike you I back my beliefs with conviction.
I spoke to offer you my thoughts & my findings. I am not here to prove the world is ot flat to the flat earth society. Nor will I sail around the world to prove it to you. You must prove to yourself what is true. Because their is no burden of proof great enough for those who do not want to believe. Choose not to believe them if you wish, but don't call them falsehoods without proof.

YOUR OWN UNPROVEN SUPPORTS
1 pejorative use of "redskin" (you admit it is not today, so obviously it is cannot be innately pejorative)
2 boston braves
3 cherekee grandmother
4 logo
5 that you are really 30 & not 16 year old pouty girl *lol*

The burden of proof works both ways my friend.

Redbeard

07-12-2003, 09:04 AM

Also capitalism is far more democratic & effective than protesting & babbling.

The day people find it offensive enough not to patronize or buy the merchandise... is the day the name will change overnight.

Not that offensive is it.

Keino

07-12-2003, 09:51 AM

I'll keep this brief, b/c we are never going to see eye to eye on this, and for me that is just fine.

Inner Conflict - I am not the only one who has posted such a notion. I am a fan of the team not the name. How you would handle the conflict has no bearing on how I should handle it, yet you are entitled to your opinion.

MY unproven Points:

1. Braves - I believe I provided a link demonstrating the Team's first name was Braves.

2. Perjorative use of the word. - Are you serious? In language words can transform meaning either by design (Washington Redskins) or by accident (Bad = Good). There is another Racial Perjorative Beginning with a "N" that is used quite commonly today and not as a perjorative.

3. Logo - Here's a link that will show you every Uniform style the team ever had. As you can see, the American Indian Logo/Theme has been incorporated from the beginning, once again disproving your Boston Tea Party Theory. http://www.mapleleafproductions.com/football/redskins/index.html
Be sure to click on each Uniform, as it gives a History. The Very First Boston Brave Uniform featured The Indian Head Logo which graces our favorite team's helmet today. The Only Helmet with the "R" logo was in 1969-1970 during Vince Lombardy's brief tenure as stated by yours truly. Unless you are completely obtuse, this point is proven beyond belief. Funny how that Documentation/Information age stuff works isn't it? Man, would you please use Google before trying to give me a Revisionist history lesson.

Your other points (regarding my Heritage and my age)are merely childish attempts at baiting me into a Flame War and I won't bite. I don't need to personally attack you in order to get my point accross. Believe whatever you want.

Hopefully you will be at the HR Tailgate and you will be able to see for yourself. I'll be the guy with the Retro Jersey #3 with "KEINO" on the back. I've also posted a pic of my entire family in the "Off topic" forum on a thread entitled "Show us what you look like".

baralufficus

07-12-2003, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by rskinsfan10
Why do you care about rules all of a sudden? The rules are that you don't attack anyone here for their beliefs, which IMO you did. You seem to have a problem with the fact that you received a response with a tone that you didn't seem to feel was needed. Oh well. Again, think back to how all of this started. I didn't attack your thoughts and opinions first. Once that occurs, it is up to whatever admin or mod that can or will react quickly enough to admonish for your actions. It was you that threw the first punch. Keep saying that over and over to yourself. I had confidence that you would eventually see the light, but I'm beginning to think otherwise. In your mind it seems that I was wrong to not share your thoughts about this topic, because "you love football". And please give up the little "the admins are oppressing you act" that you and your buddy RODDY have going here. The fact that you were even able to type your previous post proves that angle to be a waste of time. You said alot worse earlier, yet you still are allowed to be a member here. You questioned whether this was a football MB earlier in this thread, yet all you seem to want to do is discuss this controversial topic, to which you are no longer adding any worthwile dialouge.

I dont care about the rules , but i am civil....and in case you forgot ...You mentioned the rules first ...I was just simply pointing out that "bullcrap" and "ignorance" can be equally offensive , yet you had no problem throwing that out there ....you shouldn't mention banning in your post , and then cry about me pointing out to you what you did also ....Remember , 2 wrongs don't make a right ....And yes , i did throw mud first ...I was never saying otherwise....i guess I confused you into thinking i was trying to shift the blame to you ...i don't know , nor do i care.....I dont see how you think i was playing this "the admins are oppressing you act"....where did you get that crap from....is saying crap offensive ??....anways , your not the only one that was saying to change the name , so in the aftermath i guess everybody that agreed that they would change the name , are the people i called "bullcrap" on their opinions ....IMO , that is a not so bright way to feel after all the "real" issues going on in the world today

And for the record, [b]ignorance means to not have knowledge of a particular subject. To help you better understand my post, I stated that your advice to just turn the other cheek to offensive behavior in relation to racial relations is not acceptable to those that feel that things involving their race need to be changed, and not just pushed aside. I then gave you some examples of how things could and would be different for a race of people if they had just turned the other cheek. Everyone, I mean everyone is ignorant to something in this world. No one knows it all. Before you get offended by someone using that word towards you, try gathering the true meaning of it. Now, unless the term bullcrap has taken on a new meaning, I'm pretty sure I know what it means. Come on man , we were talking about changin the name "Redskins"....and then you come out of left field with all this racial relation "stuff"....I, like you , have Native American ancestary also ....Do i not have the right to voice my opinion on this matter without a fellow Native American taking offense???Does it shock you that we can be white and black , but still have a similar bloodline ?....Not me , and my opinion is that you have an "ignorance" about the "football team" we all love , the Washington Redskins....you glorify the name "Redskins" every time you post a message on this MB ....i mean , your screenname is rskinsfan.....maybe you should set an example , and change that name ...some people might take offense to it , you know ???

HTTR ~

rskinsfan10

07-12-2003, 02:36 PM

bara,

Seriously, is it beyond your realm of thinking and comprehension that Native Americans not liking the word Redskins isn't a racial issue? I did not inject racial issues into this topic. The root of this topic from the beginning of it's creation is racial. Surely you cannot have such a difficult time comprehending this. No I do not glorify the term Redskins with my screen name. It's just a way of letting you know what team I root for. Nothing about my screen name says that I root for the term Redskins. Nice try, but it won't fly.You seem to only be interested in arguing back and forth, to which I will no longer oblige you. You cannot understand that we are talking about a race of people, which makes this an issue of race. Out of all that rumbling that you just did, only one thing sticks out to me and that is what I will touch on.

You said in your last post that you don't care about the rules. Fine. If you don't, then sir leave this forum. Don't post here again. If you choose to blatantly disregard the rules (by stating that you don't care about them) that were set forth here by those that have worked hard to make this place somewhere that fans can talk about this team and whatever other topic that we see fit, then you don't need to be here, nor will you be allowed to stay here. If you don't like our rules, may I suggest to you that you create your own fan site complete with a forum where you can make your own rules to your individual liking. Or you may choose to not have any rules at all. That's your choice. This is all that will be and needs to be said about the matter. Sorry if you don't like it, but of course you probably know that I don't care.