A Much More Detailed Brunell/Ramsey Poll

[akhhorus]

The question of Ramsey or Brunell is too complicated for just a question of Brunell or Ramsey. There are many different opinions on this and I want to see where HR exactly stands on this Gordian knot.

[Sonoma]

The way I look at things is very evident to the 1st game.

1st game Ramsey 104 yds passing 2 to 2 fumbles in about 1 qtr. and 1/3

Brunell 70 yards the entire game, no TO.


Ramsey gives us the oppurtunity to score more but also he can kill us by turning the ball over. If Ramsey has a perfect game which is rare we easily win but if he is shaky and inconsistent you have no idea how we are going to do.

Brunell manages the game and doesn't take many shots plus he doesn't turn the ball over much which Gibbs loves.

[redskin_rich]

2nd option pretty much nails it for me.

[OCSkinzFan]

Call me Alexander, and where's my sword?

Oh, here it is: I think it was Ramsey's to loose and in three series he gave up the ball three times. That's just not acceptable. (Except for Brett Farve)

I picked #1

[smoak]

I voted "I like polls", but mostly because my option wasn't there. In terms of production, it is absolutely the right move, but I am worried about team chemistry if Brunnel looks as bad against Dallass as he did in '04.

[C-7]

Good idea Akh.


Ramsey has played poorly, but Brunell sucks, and I believe he will play even worse than last year. ramsey should be given the entire season.

[ShaggySkins]

I voted the 1st option. I think Brunell gives us the BEST chance to win right now. I don't think Ramsey is ready to be a starter and Dallas is a very aggressive defense in teh 3-4. They are going to be blitzing from all angles and I think Brunells mobility and better awareness will be a big advantage for the team agansit that defense which is something Ramsey lacks.

[The Skinsinator]

Brunnel does give us the best chance to defeat Dallas monday night. I wouldn't say Ram looked horrible but I expected more. I had a feeling during the summer Brunnel wasn't done yet and he gets his 2nd chance with the Skins. Make it count Mark.

[swheeler]

I went with option 5: Ramsey deserved a few games, but Brunell should stay loose.
I think Ramsey would be able to play the whole season if he had been given a longer leash. However, I'm not so brainwashed as to think that if he proved he was not up to the task he should keep the job just on principle. But 3 series, or even a whole game, is not enough tiome to decide unless it was based on preseason. And if it was based on preseason, he shouldn't have started.

[bfauble83]

Ramsey deserved more games, or if Gibbs didn't trust him then he shouldn't have been the starter in the first place.

[RoanokeSkin]

Put in Campbell and let him go. I dont think this means you are giving up on the season. He is the best quarterback we have.

[CarMike]

Option 2. If Ramsey hadn't been hurt would Gibbs have made the move? I don't know the answer but I think he would have kept in there. Ramsey did start slowly by throwing the INT then fumbling twice. But he did pick it up and looked pretty sharp.

I was close to picking option #1. I was surprised that Coach didn't make the switch before the opening game. Brunell is his QB. He doesn't often make mistakes and has looked the best during preseason.

[hockeygoalie29]

I went with #2. Gibbs should have waited until the bye week if for no other reason than to give Brunell more time to work with the offense after working with the 2nd team all offseason.

I don't think we've seen the last of Ramsey quite yet. I think Gibbs is sending him the message that he needs to stop the turnovers or be benched like he did to Rypien back in the day.

[CapitalDefense]

Gibbs made the right move, Ramsey looks terrible(and not improving) and Brunell deserves a shot.

Its number one, Ramsey never actually won the job, he was handed it after Brunell stunk it up last year. Then Gibbs hands it to him in the offseason, thinking Ramsey would improve his mistakes and stop turning the ball over. After mini-camps and OTA's and training camp he still makes huge mistakes and turns the ball over. Brunell deserves another shot...

[dabro]

I chose number one because Ramsey makes me nervous! Some here have talked about Ramsey getting more passing yardage in only 1-1/3 quarters, but, you will remember, Chicago was stopping the run well, and we had to pass. For some reason, once Brunell got in, the run opened up, and they pretty much ran the ball for the rest of the game. They had as many yards rushing as passing, a pretty strange stat! But it ate up the clock, and we got the win.

[skinsdude]

As of my post more people have voted for "I wish Gibbs had waited another week until the Bye, but I understand the move" than "Gibbs made the right move, Ramsey looks terrible(and not improving) and Brunell deserves a shot". Why? What would Patrick do with one more week? I watched all four preseason games, two in person, and attended the Bears game. What makes the people that voted for "I wish Gibbs had waited another week until the Bye, but I understand the move" think that Patrick is magically going to finally "get it"? Do you expect some kind of major improvement against our division rival (that owns us) on Monday night on national TV? I applaud this move by Coach Gibbs for being proactive and realizing the importance of this game. Mark Brunnel may very well not be the answer but I think that it's unbelievable that anyone is questioning this move or it's timing after having watched Patrick for almost 4 1/2 games this year. Wait another week? Why so that we can be 1-1. If Patrick had finished the Bears game and was to play against the Pokes, we would be 0-2. Mark may or may not win the game on Monday but there in no reason whatsoever for me to think that Patrick could win it for us. It's been forever since we have been to the playoffs and forever since we beat Dallas. I'm tired of it.

[LATrueRedskin]

I said start Campbell. Brunell and/or Ramsey aren't going to lead us anywhere special, so let's get the kid in there. Might as well speed up the process, and he doesn't seem to be much worse than any of those two.

[flave1969]

If Joe Gibbs felt this way then he should have done this weeks ago. How is this the best preparation for getting of to a strong start. If Brunell is the Coach's man then he should have started against the Bears. I voted I like Polls.

[whistleandthumb]

I voted Option TWO, but am really between two and three. I think it's unfair what he did, especially the way Brunell stunk up the joint last year, but I can understand why he's making the switch. I still think Ramsey is going to do well in this league, but he's just never had the opportunity to lead a team for a season. He's always come in half-way, or not been able to finish the season. So, again, not really fair to Ramsey, nor the rest of the team, but I can understand, and even sort of agree, with the decision.

[The Skinsinator]

I said start Campbell. Brunell and/or Ramsey aren't going to lead us anywhere special, so let's get the kid in there. Might as well speed up the process, and he doesn't seem to be much worse than any of those two.
Perhaps, but starting a rookie now usually doesn't work and frankly I haven't entirely given up on either. I want Campbell to learn and sit for a minimum of a 1/2 season, preferably a season. The Roethlisberger situation last year was an anomaly.

[CapitalDefense]

There is a Gibbs press conference over on Redskins.com for those interested, there is also an article where Patrick answered a few questions about Gibbs decision.

Not quite to the posting limit or I would have made a new thread

[silverspring]

ramsey deserves a few more games.

[The Skinsinator]

there is also an article where Patrick answered a few questions about Gibbs decision.
http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=10312

Interesting comments. You can tell he's more frustrated than ever. I certainly would like to hear the details between the Ramsey-Gibbs talk over the decision. Ramsey is extremely humble about all this. Very likable guy as we have all noted. Maybe a change is for the best for him.

[BurgundyNGold]

I wish that Gibbs had waited until the bye week, but I'm highly doubtfult that it would've made that much of a difference.

In fact, I'm not sure that starting any of our 3 QBs will make a difference as I have serious reservations about us having a NFL caliber QB at this point. IMO, Brunell might well be a "has been", Ramsey is a "never was" and Campbell is an "isn't yet".

[LATrueRedskin]

Perhaps, but starting a rookie now usually doesn't work and frankly I haven't entirely given up on either. I want Campbell to learn and sit for a minimum of a 1/2 season, preferably a season. The Roethlisberger situation last year was an anomaly.

If you start a rookie and don't play musical chairs with him, he can get a really good jump start on his career. I'd prefer him to sit as well, but we're going to continue to switch QB's all year, and that'll get us nowhere. There's no way in hell Brunell can play 15 more games, the guy is 35 years old. So we might as well speed up the process and not waste next year and get it over with now.

[The Skinsinator]

If you start a rookie and don't play musical chairs with him, he can get a really good jump start on his career. I'd prefer him to sit as well, but we're going to continue to switch QB's all year, and that'll get us nowhere. There's no way in hell Brunell can play 15 more games, the guy is 35 years old. So we might as well speed up the process and not waste next year and get it over with now.
You really want Jason Campbell opening up his nfl career against Dallas monday night? No pressure there. Dallas owns us, Parcells has plenty of new blitz monsters, MNF, preserving a winning record, and getting adjusted to pro ball. Way too much to ask right now. I understand your frustration with our current qb situation, but I want JC to start in a low stress environment. Our game mon night, arguably, may be our most stressful.

[danny's stogie]

I'm glad Gibbs went ahead and made the change. Brunell, while not being great, gives the team the best chance to win, especially with both the defense looking unbelievable and the running game really coming around. There are 50 some odd players on that team who play hard every week and they deserve a shot to win. People may say that going back on his word will make the team lose respect for Gibbs, but have you ever played on a little league team where a dad is the coach and he lets his crappy son pitch? It's similar to that situation, in that you lose respect for your coach if the players on the team know a person shouldn't be playing and he starts anyway.

[redwolf1218]

I voted:
Gibbs made the right move, Ramsey looks terrible(and not improving) and Brunell deserves a shot.
Second choice: I like polls.
Ramsey seems to think he has to win the game, when really all he has to do is "not lose" the game. Benching Ramsey and releasing Antonio Brown sends the message that repeated mistakes and turnovers will not be tolerated. Of course accidents will happen...accidents are unnexpected, which is why they are called "accidents", but repeating mistakes is not the same as an accident. Both Brown and Ramsey displayed more repeated, costly mistakes than anyone on the team, IMO.

[LATrueRedskin]

You really want Jason Campbell opening up his nfl career against Dallas monday night? No pressure there. Dallas owns us, Parcells has plenty of new blitz monsters, MNF, preserving a winning record, and getting adjusted to pro ball. Way too much to ask right now. I understand your frustration with our current qb situation, but I want JC to start in a low stress environment. Our game mon night, arguably, may be our most stressful.

No, I really want a QB who can really play football. We don't have that right now, we're grabbing at straws. I do agree with you that putting Campbell in vs. Dallas is too much, but put him in after the bye week.

[CarMike]

My personal feelings on starting Campbell is pretty simple. If we were to start Campbell, coach would be sending the wrong message to the team and the fans. To start a rookie right now would throwing this year away. Remember guys...we're 1-0. We won last week. With Brunell playing most of the game.

OMT. Every rookie QB will not have the success that Big Ben had last year. Heck. The difference between BR and PR is the fact that Ben doesn't make the mistakes that Ramsey makes. He doesn't kill his defense by turning the ball over and giving the other team a small field to play on. The Steelers didn't allow him to lose games last year. Week 1 this year is the same story. Big Ben went 9-11. And he didn't attempt a pass for most of the 2nd half. [I think I read he attempted one pass on the first offensive possession of the 2nd half]

[Keino]

I voted option #1, but I really see option 1 and 2 as pretty much being the same thing. HOw can you not understand the move?

[bwparker]

This was my Gut response:
Ramsey deserved one more week, and Gibbs is being unfair to Ramsey.

This is how I feel now(and how I voted):
I wish Gibbs had waited another week until the Bye, but I understand the move.

[bwparker]

I voted option #1, but I really see option 1 and 2 as pretty much being the same thing. HOw can you not understand the move?
I think there are two levels of understanding.

I can understand why Hitler tried to erraticate the Jews, but I'll never understand why Hitler would try to erraticate the Jews. Its an extreme example, but I'm just trying to show a point.

Then there is. I understand why my friend chose a mustang over a hybrid civic. I personally perfer more fuel efficiency and cost effectiveness to flash, but I understand why he made his decision.

I think everyone understands why Gibbs made his choice in the Hitler sense, in that the reasoning follows a certain logic. But not everyone understands it in a Mustang sense, in that they agree that the logic is an equally good and plausible solution.

I think this option means you understand it in the Mustang sense.

[BIGSEF3]

I am really surprised with the poll results so far. The numbers seem to indicate people have settled down some and are thinking rationally about the whole thing now.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

i voted for #7, but my true feelings are in #2. im ready to move on and focus on dalass now.

[Blind-sided]

Well I.M.O. the O seemed to move btter with M. Brunell in there. With Ram it seemed stale at times. Oh yeah because of turn overs. Don't get me wrong i think he desrves another week atleast . But i'm sure Gibbs inc. are maken, what they feel to be the best chioce for the team.

[The Skinsinator]

I think there are two levels of understanding.

I can understand why Hitler tried to erraticate the Jews, but I'll never understand why Hitler would try to erraticate the Jews. Its an extreme example, but I'm just trying to show a point.

Then there is. I understand why my friend chose a mustang over a hybrid civic. I personally perfer more fuel efficiency and cost effectiveness to flash, but I understand why he made his decision.

I think everyone understands why Gibbs made his choice in the Hitler sense, in that the reasoning follows a certain logic. But not everyone understands it in a Mustang sense, in that they agree that the logic is an equally good and plausible solution.

I think this option means you understand it in the Mustang sense.
This is a bit above my head, but I think I gotcha. Here's another scenario, what if we won by a miniscule amount Mon night and Brunnel played terribly? I'm talking utterly horrific. What does Gibbs do then? Can't go own his gut every week.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Good poll, akh.

I voted for the 2nd option. I had been telling myself all preseason that if Ramsey didn't get the job done after the Dallass game to yank him. And I am a Ramsey fan, and I thought I was being unfairly tough on him. Never did I think that Pat would only have 26 snaps in week 1 before getting pulled. I mean, after all, Brunell had 7 weeks of the worst QB play I can remember before getting pulled.

[HAWGZHEAD]

I would opt for another choice.

Ramsey shoulda been benched preseason.

[HAWGZHEAD]

I can understand why Hitler tried to erraticate the Jews, but I'll never understand why Hitler would try to erraticate the Jews. Its an extreme example, but I'm just trying to show a point.

.

Yeah a little extreme lol.

[hail2skins]

I thought we were done with this topic.

[akhhorus]

I thought we were done with this topic.

I was curious of the exact feelings of the Brunell/Ramsey debate. Just saying whether or not you agreed with benching Ramsey wasn't edifying enough for me. And the poll results are interesting.

[hail2skins]

I gotcha.

[whistleandthumb]

No, I really want a QB who can really play football. We don't have that right now, we're grabbing at straws. I do agree with you that putting Campbell in vs. Dallas is too much, but put him in after the bye week.
No way, mate!!

If we beat Manbreasts and the Girls on Monday, we're 2-0 heading into the bye, and it's very possible we could be atop the NFC East. There is no way in hell you can put JC in there if we're 2-0. Absolutely no way. It'd be the worst coaching move in the history of the NFL, with the exception of everything Spurrier did.

Now, if MB looks totally lost, and we get killed, then maybe it's a consideration. I still think the best thing for JC is to sit and watch this year.

[skins74]

Good idea Akh.


Ramsey has played poorly, but Brunell sucks, and I believe he will play even worse than last year. ramsey should be given the entire season.


That's kinda what I was thinking but I guess Gibbs knows something we don't know, I guess?

[Brokenstriker]

Fact is I think the only reason Ramsey started the opener was as a courtesy based on a man's word (i.e, because Gibbs told Ramsey he was the starter ... he was the starter) ...

but everyone needs to justify their time on the field as a function of what they do on it ... Ramsey dug a hole this preseason that would have fully justified benching him except for the fact that the coach told him he was the starter. He started ... and he didn't impress. Three drives ... the first should have been a 3 and out but saved by a penalty ... interception (and an ugly one at that) ... and one ended fumble due "potentially" to holding the ball to long and not having a better view of the field (both receivers and pass rush) ... something of a Ramsey hallmark.

for what Ramsey and Brunell have been bringing to the office most recently ... I think the only thing that kept Brunell from being the starter was Gibbs' word and the appearent committment to give Ramsey every good chance to show us all that he really deserves to be the starter.

[NCskinsfanatic]

Option 1 for me Akh, as bad as I hate to admit it Ramseys has not progressed, at all, zero, zilch, nada.

[BigPlayJay]

Ramsey just reminds me too much of Frerotte. A promising start and then regression. I don't know if it was Spurrier or getting pounded or being in a conventional offense for the first time in many years but Ramsey has become a turnover machine.

[inevitable]

I really really think Ramsey will get better with age. However, Gibbs decided to turn to JC for the future. Wherever Ramsey ends up - if he doesn't stay with us - he will, eventually, be a very good football player. He just has a lot of maturing and learning to do before he ever truly suceeds in an NFL offense.

[BigPlayJay]

I really really think Ramsey will get better with age. However, Gibbs decided to turn to JC for the future. Wherever Ramsey ends up - if he doesn't stay with us - he will, eventually, be a very good football player. He just has a lot of maturing and learning to do before he ever truly suceeds in an NFL offense.
Maybe. I think he needs to develop some touch on the long passes and accuracy on the short ones. His biggest problem may be knowing when to get rid of the ball.

Man, I remember the opener against the Jets (I was there) a few years ago. I thought we finally had a franchise qb.

[GibbsFan]

I went with the first option. Prior to the announcement, I believed Ramsey should have had another start with a short leash like pull him on the first or 2nd series if he made a bonehead turnover that cost a TD or 2. I realized that Brunell would have real trouble coming from behind 10-0 or 14-0, and we stand a much better chance if we can minimize turnovers and get on top early.

So, coach made the right move because beating Dallass is more important than Ramsey's feelings or the chance to prove himself. But you never know what can happen. Ramsey is but 1 snap of the football from getting back on the field, so I hope he keeps his chin up and stays ready, because you never know when you'll be called upon.

Anyway, Mary Poppins could QB for all I care if we just beat the damn Cowturds!

[colkurtz]

Ramsey deserves nothing except a chance to compete. Do people honestly think Gibbs and his coaching staff should go against their best judgement; potentially loss the first two or more games to be "fair" to Patrick? Go 0-2 so we can fulfill a "promise" which was never made?

Why not 0-5 just to be sure the Ramsey is not the next Pro Bowler?

Brunell offers us the best chance to win this season. That's why Gibbs made the decision.

P.S. I thought Brunell should have started the first game against the Bears based on a far-better pre-season.

[BigPlayJay]

Ramsey deserves nothing except a chance to compete. Do people honestly think Gibbs and his coaching staff should go against their best judgement; potentially loss the first two or more games to be "fair" to Patrick? Go 0-2 so we can fulfill a "promise" which was never made?

Why not 0-5 just to be sure the Ramsey is not the next Pro Bowler?

Brunell offers us the best chance to win this season. That's why Gibbs made the decision.

P.S. I thought Brunell should have started the first game against the Bears based on a far-better pre-season.
True that!

[RedskinsVision]

the writing was on the wall when a few weeks ago Bugel was asked if the coaching staff was "confident" in Ramsey and he replied that they were after he had a good practice the other day. this was not too long before the season started which led us believe Ramsey performed as he is.. shows potential but is inconsistent for the liking of a veteran coaching staff.. he was on a short leash all along.

[X-Factor13]

I chose the second option simply because it is hard to part ways with someone that has been your hope for the past three years.

There was a good article about this at nfl.com:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/8842074

The guys does a good job summing up what we pretty much all know now.

[skinsorbust]

ramsey deserves one year of total control of the offense.if he sucks the whole season or if he gradually gets better and more comfortable with the offense.he's just never had that chance to see. or us for that matter.a first round pick qb should be given the chance to go thru the ups and the downs at least two full seasons.then decide of what you've got.the redskins have dramatically screwed up the development of ramsey so much that he's mentally a rookie.i think the redskins would be a playoff team today if we would have started ramsey the day we drafted him.

[GibbsFan]

ramsey deserves one year of total control of the offense.if he sucks the whole season or if he gradually gets better and more comfortable with the offense.he's just never had that chance to see. or us for that matter.a first round pick qb should be given the chance to go thru the ups and the downs at least two full seasons.then decide of what you've got.the redskins have dramatically screwed up the development of ramsey so much that he's mentally a rookie.i think the redskins would be a playoff team today if we would have started ramsey the day we drafted him.

If he would have signed his contract and not held out he might have started immediately. But SS would have ruined it for him anyway, so your theory has little merit. By the time time Gibbs got him he was damaged goods.

[SkinsDominate]

I think Gibbs is being unfair. Anyone who thinks Ramsey has been given a fair shot is crazy. So what happens Monday when not if Brunell struggles, and Gibbs decides to stick Ramsey back in. He expects Ramsey to just come in with a smile on his face and be a team player. I wouldnt.

[Paintedbird]

Ramsey is a far better player than Brunell right now and will probably be a star in the NFL if he can recover from being stupidly handled by Spurrier and Gibbs. Spurrier had no idea how to protect an NFL QB and failed to provided him even passable receivers. Still, he had acceptable stats, against all odds and represented the Skins' best chance for victory. Under Gibbs, functioning in one of the worse designed offenses in the NFL, he came in far too late, after Brunell had turned the season into a fiasco, and did well, helping the Skins to three wins down the stretch and giving the better teams in the league real battles. At the end of the season, he was rightly considered the Redskin hope for the future...by just about everyone around the league and on this site.
The great Joe Gibbs had been proven wrong, and it apparently rankled. Gibbs was looking for any excuse to redeem himself for the old Brunell mistake....and found one that some fans would fall for. A pick and two fumbles. The trouble was Brunell also had a pick and missed two receivers in the end zone. So Gibbs had to let it be known mistakes (fumbles only) were the problem. Some fans brought it, some idiot commentators did too.
Suddenly, a QB being stripped from the blindside while trying to pass was the QB's fault, not the tackle's and being stripped had never happened to Brunell or Ripien (who used to get stripped from the backside about every game).
Also, in a shocking display of butter fingers, Ramsey let the ball go after Jansen missed a block and Ramsey had his head half taken off by an illegal clothesline to the head that turned out his lights and could have killed him.
Gibbs, of course, knew that Brunell wouldn't have dropped the ball in that circumstance. Brunell doesn't make mistakes.
But, let me hasten. I'm getting angry at the absurdity, the unfairness, the stupidity, the hypocracy.
We will not win with Brunell. I repeat. We will not win with Brunell. He can no longer successfully play in the NFL.
A lot of you are going to say. "But he was hurt last year. This year he's better."
Well, think about it. What the hell was Gibbs doing last year in letting a hurt, old QB absolutely, game after game, destroy our season. Gibbs is simply not rational about Brunell, not then, not now. He paid too much money for him...his ego won't let him write it off. I'm sure he absolutely hates Ramsey. By this time, if Ramsey is better than Brunell, Gibbs (in the eyes of everyone) is very, very wrong.
Be prepared for Gibbs to save himself from that humiliation, or try to.
It's gone too far. It's another Spurrier and Danny Wawful. We will lose to Dallas.

[WarEagle]

The whole dynamic of "staying with your first string QB" for weeks and weeks has changed. I was in Boston when Drew Bledsoe was injured, and fans were like, "Brady who??" He was way off our radar screen. But the injury to Drew was a blessing, and the rest is history. Despite his uneven play, a healthy Drew would never have been benched in favor of Brady, and the Pats would not have seen such a level of success.
I salute Coach G's quick move. Three early losses because of loyalty to the QB could scuttle the season. If Brunny can't cut it, bring in Jason. He had multiple offensive coordinators at Auburn, so he is probably already totally versed on the plan.

[jsagan77]

Why didn't we sign Rohan Davey?

[Joe-T]

Who made the poll up ,Gibbs PR man?

[Skins57]

I thought the switch was quick but I do not have any faith in Ramsey at this point, so I say let Brunell have the team and let Campbell take over next season

[Redskin-4-life]

I picked the 3rd option. The int was his fault, but I don't think the fumbles was. Remembering the shots he took, I can't think of anyone who wouldn't fumble. I saw Ramsey's confidence go up on that last drive, and then he nearly go his head taken off. I think it's unfair, because he was developing rythem and moving the offense. Any QB that got hit the way he did would've fumbled the ball IMO.

[Joe-T]

lol, the ploll shows that we believe Gibbs did the wrong thing. Add up the desenting opinions and it overwhelmingly is against Gibbs .

[Spence]

I like the decision. Ramsey is just far too mistake-prone.

[Redblood]

Gibbs decided to turn to JC for the future.


HOF Coach Gibbs turned to Jesus Christ a long, long time ago. His conservative Christianity is well documented.

About your poll, AKH, I simply do not see my choice. #8 Do not like polls that don't show your choice in the matter!

First and foremost:
1.HOF Coach Gibbs has those three letters in front of his name for a very good reason. People need to use them in their posts about him. No other team in the NFL has a HOF Coach at the helm.

2. HOF Coach Gibbs may be rusty/crusty but he has a gut feeling about his work just as we all do about our own work!

3. PRam had some good stats, and some bad stats from game #1. 3 of 5 third down conversions is great, the pick wasn't. The yardage he threw for was great, ...............hmmmm did I mention the fumble on top of the pick?

3. Brunnell showed flashes both in PS and the first game that he can still manage a clock, manage a team, knows the plays, knows how to scramble when needed, and knows where the players are going. May or may not still have the arm. Threw pretty well in PS, however!

4. HOF Coach Gibbs did fulfill his commitment to start PRam for the game.

5. HOF Coach Gibbs fell in love with Brunnell the night they first met, when Brunnell saved his life! HOF Coach Gibbs has a great memory!

6. HOF Coach Gibbs did not draft PRam. He did, however spend LDS'S BIG money to sign Brunnell.

7. HOF Coach Gibbs gives Brunnell credit for hanging tough despite his hammy injury last year.

8. HOF Coach Gibbs and the coaching staff tweaked the O during the offseason. Of that, we are positive!

9. We have a great D, a nearly top rated D actually, and a terrific back in Portis.

10. We all feel we have added to the WR corps by subtraction!

11. The season ain't over till it's over!

12. It ain't over! No need to throw JCampbell to the wolves! Few here think he can handle the rookie pressure, despite the fact that he was HOF Coach Gibbs hand-picked (with three draft picks, yet!) choice.

13. Because of those three letters, mentioned in #1 above, we have to trust HOF Coach Gibbs. But, our week depends on what happens Sunday, so, we tend to over-react based on the game results.

14. Some of us need to slow down, catch a breath, smell the coffee, enjoy the sun, and allow the season to come to us to enjoy!

15. The move to Brunnell imho is neither detrimental or helpful. But, I'm sure the coaches of the raisens and the jets wish they had a man like Brunnell to turn their team over to! The total breakdown of Pennington was nightmarish!
The injury to Boller looked painful, very painful!

16. I've checked the Boston & Atlanta papers the past two days. This story about HOF Coach Gibbs with Brunnell & PRam hasn't got the same interest in those two major cities. Nationally, NFL fans don't care about what folks in this forum aparently are so fired up about!

17. Our opinion cannot be heard by the FO, or HOF Coach Gibbs! The FO does not make decisions based on fan opinion, anyway! All we can do is buy our tickets, and cheer like always, and we will continue to cheer, no matter the QB!

18. It's dallas week! We have another team "America's most wanted" team to beat! We need to unite behind the B&G, and destroy all of the morale in the cowroid camp!

:dalassuk:

19. Almost forgot, all of us need to utilize the dalassuk smile behind every last post this week! Only wish we had a "We want Dallas" smilie!

:dalassuk:

[akhhorus]

lol, the ploll shows that we believe Gibbs did the wrong thing. Add up the desenting opinions and it overwhelmingly is against Gibbs .

Really? 63 of 110 right now don't disagree with the move, 35 believe that it was the wrong move(in varying degrees). They must have some sort of different math where ever you were raised...

[akhhorus]

Ramsey is a far better player than Brunell right now and will probably be a star in the NFL if he can recover from being stupidly handled by Spurrier and Gibbs.

Ramsey can be a star in the NFL? LMAO. Maybe in the Arena Leagues, but he hasn't shown this great talent you think he has in 4 years.

[flave1969]

I voted option #1, but I really see option 1 and 2 as pretty much being the same thing. HOw can you not understand the move?


What I don't understand is why now? The timing makes no sense at all.

[flave1969]

What I will add is that an awful lot of people seem totally willing to forget Brunell last year. Where is the evidence that this a different Brunell with substance. Where is the evidence that Brunell can throw at least 1TD per game. I see cosmetically Brunell is moving a lot better, but I did not see a player with the killer instinct needed to stop this Offense from being mediocre at best.

I guess what I cant understand the most is why more people are not seriously worried whoever is QB.

[BigPlayJay]

What I don't understand is why now? The timing makes no sense at all.
Because we play mayber the most important game of the year this week as far as getting this season going. Why penalize the rest of the team because your qb turns it over on every drive.

It's too late to throw the conseravtive QB in down 14-0.

[flave1969]

Because we play mayber the most important game of the year this week as far as getting this season going. Why penalize the rest of the team because your qb turns it over on every drive.

It's too late to throw the conseravtive QB in down 14-0.

Then Brunell should have been playing four weeks ago, because one week of full practice is not enough if this game is so important.

[BigPlayJay]

Then Brunell should have been playing four weeks ago, because one week of full practice is not enough if this game is so important.
It's just the way things worked out. Don't think for a minute that Gibbs didn't want to see Ramsey shred the Bears and hold onto the ball. I am sure if JG knew that Ramsey would still be turning it over so consistently by now he would have switched QB's back in the spring. Who knows he may have even brought another one in. Thats what probably should have happened.

[flave1969]

It's just the way things worked out. Don't think for a minute that Gibbs didn't want to see Ramsey shred the Bears and hold onto the ball. I am sure if JG knew that Ramsey would still be turning it over so consistently by now he would have switched QB's back in the spring. Who knows he may have even brought another one in. Thats what probably should have happened.


I am sure you are right. What I can't get past in my own head is that Brunell scares me much more than Ramsey, and only good steady play can convince me. Going on last year, Brunell being twice as good as last year only takes him to mediocre.

[BigPlayJay]

Brunell being twice as good as last year only takes him to mediocre.
True that!

[CNYSkinFan]

I went with the second option. I would have preferred a change during the bye week. I agree with the change but I felt for Brunell's sake, a change at the bye-week would have been an easier transition. I agree Ramsey has looked horrible but I also know Ramsey is better in the 2nd half of games and not the first....

So the second option is where I am.

[ChiefPowhatan17]

Ramsey has had a bad preseason, but he still took the majority of the snaps this off season, they sould have had an open camp for te starting job. But I wish he had waited one more week. Don't worry we will see Ramsey again. You always need 2

[Patrick]

Hmmmmmmmm. Interesting - the arguing back a forth in several threads seems to be 50/50 but according to this poll (and discount those who answered it with the "I like this poll" choice .......... OVER 60% believe that Ramsey should have at least been given another game.

BUT this information and a quarter is still not going to get you a cup of coffee. ...... Just shows Akh has over 60% of us to argue with .... ;)

[akhhorus]

Hmmmmmmmm. Interesting - the arguing back a forth in several threads seems to be 50/50 but according to this poll (and discount those who answered it with the "I like this poll" choice .......... OVER 60% believe that Ramsey should have at least been given another game.

BUT this information and a quarter is still not going to get you a cup of coffee. ...... Just shows Akh has over 60% of us to argue with .... ;)

Im only happy when Im arguing with everybody else :D

But this poll can be interpreted in many ways. Yes, about 60% believe that Ramsey deserved one more week, but 58% agree with the move. And less than 5% like polls.

[whitskins]

I think if our second game was against a non-divisional opponent Gibbs would have given Ramsey til the bye week. But this is Dallas. We have to beat Dallas. Sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures.

[Skins57]

we are about to find out if brunell was truely injured last season and it added to his play. I think Joe saw many of the same tings in Ram that he saw last year and which is why he waited so long to make a change. joe hates turnovers...just ask antonio Brown

[Skins57]

I think if our second game was against a non-divisional opponent Gibbs would have given Ramsey til the bye week. But this is Dallas. We have to beat Dallas. Sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures.


and not only is this a divisional game it is freakin dallas and we all know what joe thinks of dallas. Joe is one of us

[JoeDaSchmoe]

I think Ramsey should have had at least one more week, but I can at least understand the move... for the moment, anyway. If it turns into last year, when I absolutely, positively could not understand why Brunell was still starting past Week 5 or 6, then I'll be very upset.

[IowaSkinsFan]

I think Ramsey should have had at least one more week, but I can at least understand the move... for the moment, anyway. If it turns into last year, when I absolutely, positively could not understand why Brunell was still starting past Week 5 or 6, then I'll be very upset.

I feel the same.

[The 6th Dirtbag]

Dude, I wonder if Moss would have signed with us had he known Gibbs never had any faith in Ramsey to begin with. Everyone knows Brunell can't throw deep anymore. He sucks.

[akhhorus]

Dude, I wonder if Moss would have signed with us had he known Gibbs never had any faith in Ramsey to begin with. Everyone knows Brunell can't throw deep anymore. He sucks.

Randy Moss? Kinda of hard since he wasn't a free agent. And giving them Lavar in a trade would have been moronic.

[NamVet4]

I believe 6th Dirtbag is referring to Santana Moss and the possibility that he now must anticipate the throwing distance and accuracy of Mark Brunell as opposed to Patrick Ramsey...

[akhhorus]

I believe 6th Dirtbag is referring to Santana Moss and the possibility that he now must anticipate the throwing distance and accuracy of Mark Brunell as opposed to Patrick Ramsey...

Ah, but Moss didn't have much choice, he was traded here. He would have had to deal with Brunell no matter what, at least for one year. And the skins would have had a big salary cap chip to use if he left.

[BigPlayJay]

Hmmmmmmmm. Interesting - the arguing back a forth in several threads seems to be 50/50 but according to this poll (and discount those who answered it with the "I like this poll" choice .......... OVER 60% believe that Ramsey should have at least been given another game.

BUT this information and a quarter is still not going to get you a cup of coffee. ...... Just shows Akh has over 60% of us to argue with .... ;)

I would be curious to know how many people are basing this on performance. It seems like many just feel bad for Ramsey (which is understandable), or think the hook is too quick. Ramsey is clearly regressing, maybe taking the pressure off of him will help him in the long run.

[camasterton]

I read in the paper today, a player stated that a wide reciever ran the wrong route causing the interception last week. The last fumble (after a bogus pass interference on Cooley) was caused just as much by the o-line (and the officials) letting a QB get nearly decapitated. BTW I understand the Atlanta player that hit McNabb (looked like a hard but clean hit) got fined. Was Briggs fined?

[akhhorus]

I read in the paper today, a player stated that a wide reciever ran the wrong route causing the interception last week. The last fumble (after a bogus pass interference on Cooley) was caused just as much by the o-line (and the officials) letting a QB get nearly decapitated. BTW I understand the Atlanta player that hit McNabb (looked like a hard but clean hit) got fined. Was Briggs fined?

I dont buy the "the wr ran the wrong route" excuse. Ramsey was overthrowing a bunch of passes to start the game and thats why the ball was picked on the first drive. And if you're going to mitigate that INT, then we should go through out all of Ramsey's and Brunell's INTs and see how many drops the wideouts had for each player. Ramsey threw a pick, simple as that. And had two fumbles(one lost).

I believe it was the Falcon who started the fight who got fined, not the DLman who hit McNabb. And I haven't heard that briggs was fined, probably because he never touched Ramsey's facemask(it probably still deserved a flag, but not a fine).

[camasterton]

Brunell threw an absolutely awful ball that was intercepted by Chicago and returned 55 yards and was bailed by a call. Brunell never attempted an aggressive throw, by design. All of these and the above, things happened. They all happened with circumstances. Seems to me some circumstances are over looked and others are wieghted. Ramsey's last fumble never happens if as you say a flag was proper. Brunell's interception never happened...

[Lonestar]

How bout this little nugget of wisdom. Neither one is any good. They both stink-and so does your team.

[camasterton]

How bout this little nugget of wisdom. Neither one is any good. They both stink-and so does your team.
Put your "little nugget" back in your pants there Lonestool.

[akhhorus]

Brunell threw an absolutely awful ball that was intercepted by Chicago and returned 55 yards and was bailed by a call. Brunell never attempted an aggressive throw, by design. All of these and the above, things happened. They all happened with circumstances. Seems to me some circumstances are over looked and others are wieghted. Ramsey's last fumble never happens if as you say a flag was proper. Brunell's interception never happened...

1-The only reason Brunell's pass was picked off was because Moss was held. He had them beat underneath and Brunell nailed him. The CB had to hold him just to stop Moss, and he ended up making a pick. And the refs saw it.

2-But there wasn't a flag and it was a fumble unlike Brunell's "int". I didn't think at the time that a flag was warranted because he didn't touch Ramsey's facemask and you could plausibly make the case that since Jansen pushed him inside, he was aiming for Ramsey's shoulder pad. What I was upset about was that in San Diego, Bledsoe was being sacked and they called a roughness penalty because the DT slapped his helmet.

3-Ramsey still threw a bad INT and had another fumble. Brunell didn't have any fumbles or other phantom Ints.

[camasterton]

All agreed. I find it hard to justify one's mistakes over the other's. And that's what's being done by the Coach.

[whitskins]

All agreed. I find it hard to justify one's mistakes over the other's. And that's what's being done by the Coach.

This is only true if you qualify Brunell's called back INT as mistake (I don't think it was, I believe Moss catches or at least contests that ball if he's not held) and only judge the QBs against each other in that one game.

Gibbs is not doing that. This is not a knee jerk reaction. This is a decision that has been 6 weeks in the making, since Brunell has looked like clearly our best QB since training camp began. At some point Gibbs had to decide that he needed to play the guy who looks like the best QB. And preseason does matter, where Ramsey had many, many more mistakes than Brunell. When you look at the entire season as a whole, like Gibbs is, it's easy to justify one's mistakes over the other's because Ramsey has had so many more.

[BigPlayJay]

All agreed. I find it hard to justify one's mistakes over the other's. And that's what's being done by the Coach.
No one is justifying any mistakes by Brunell. Ramsey had a fumble or int on every series he played. That is a fact.

[IowaSkinsFan]

How bout this little nugget of wisdom. Neither one is any good. They both stink-and so does your team.

Listen up simpleton, if the quality of your posts don't start improving rapidly, they will be deleted like the troll posts that they are and you will soon find yourself banned.

Last warning.

[redskn65]

I took option 2 only because I think Ramsey should have been given one more game and also I feel it wouldn`t of had the impact or came as such a surprise to everyone if it had been done during the bye week. Having said that Brunell is the QB and thats who I`ll support.

[Ibleedburgundy]

I put I like polls because I do. Seriously though, at first I felt like Ramsey deserved a more significant chance but he didn't play well in the preseason or against the Bears. He moved the ball some but that doesn't outweigh the turnovers. I'm hoping Brunell is not 2004 Brunell, but 2001 Brunell. The second 2004 Brunell rears his ugly head, put Ramsey back in.

I'm not a big believer in QB loyalty. All this talk about confidence is overrated. If the QB is confident in his ability and his knowledge, unless he's a 13-year old the coach shouldn't have to nurse his feelings. IT'S FREAKING FOOTBALL! Besides, sometimes it's just not your day. Why can't QB's ever admit that? They put themselves above the team.

[dabro]

I think Gibbs is being unfair. Anyone who thinks Ramsey has been given a fair shot is crazy. So what happens Monday when not if Brunell struggles, and Gibbs decides to stick Ramsey back in. He expects Ramsey to just come in with a smile on his face and be a team player. I wouldnt.

That's what Ramsey is paid for, to perform when asked to. If he doesn't do what he's paid for, he's just stealing money.

[Axegrinder]

I believe that we should have stuck with Ramsey until the bye week.
This looks like a Spurrier move.
Gibbs is undermining his credibility and continuing the penchant for making the Redskins look like the Keystone Kops.This is another example of why we aren't getting any respect.

[NCskinsfanatic]

Quite frankly I liked what Campbell had to say in this article on the home page, in the following quote he was talking about being benched at Auburn even though they had a winning record at the time,4 games in: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/14/AR2005091402196.html

When it happened, it hurt my feelings," Campbell said. "But deep down inside I had a lot of pride. I knew that I could still go out there and do it. It was just a block in the road. You have to keep the faith. It's just a test of your faith." .

Maybe Ramsey should keep the faith, admit his mistakes and realize his defeciencies,and nothing else, are responsible for his demotion. If he can work with Musgrave and improve his slow release and propensity to turn the ball over then he may very well find his way back to the starting position. Thats exactly what happened to Rypein early on in Joes first go round.Maybe, just maybe, Gibbs is trying to send Pat a message and see if he can finally rise to the occasion and improve on the things he's asked him to for over a year now......... :rolleyes: .

[colkurtz]

This move is a gamble and the timing isn't great. However, gibbs and his coaching staff felt this was what the team needs to win.

If the team wins this week and Brunell plays well enough everyone will forget this.

The Eagles and Patriots are utterly ruthless with their players:

Ask for more money - "you're fired"
Get too old - "you're fired"
Say the wrong things to the press - "you're fired".
These two coaches rule with an iron fist and the players know it.

Gibbs was hounded by the media about Ramsey and makes a statement that Ramsey is the starter. Now he's being vilified by posters here because he broke a promise, was dishonest, never gave Ramsey a chance, etc,etc,etc.

Folks, it's about winning people and not about fan favorites. Personally, I just want us to beat Dallas.

[Keino]

I think Ramsey should have had at least one more week, but I can at least understand the move... for the moment, anyway. If it turns into last year, when I absolutely, positively could not understand why Brunell was still starting past Week 5 or 6, then I'll be very upset.

From the announcement it seemed to me that Gibbs implied that he would have a short leash on Brunell as well. Something tells me that if Brunell has the same type of performance as last year, Gibbs won't wait long. If you get a chance, watch the Redskins.com video. I am glad to see you have an openmind about it.

[colkurtz]

From the announcement it seemed to me that Gibbs implied that he would have a short leash on Brunell as well. Something tells me that if Brunell has the same type of performance as last year, Gibbs won't wait long. If you get a chance, watch the Redskins.com video. I am glad to see you have an openmind about it.

If any player is performing poorly thay should be replaced - including Brunell. Ramsey may get a chance to redeem himself.

[Gclark84]

I think there are two levels of understanding.

I can understand why Hitler tried to erraticate the Jews, but I'll never understand why Hitler would try to erraticate the Jews. Its an extreme example, but I'm just trying to show a point.

Then there is. I understand why my friend chose a mustang over a hybrid civic. I personally perfer more fuel efficiency and cost effectiveness to flash, but I understand why he made his decision.

I think everyone understands why Gibbs made his choice in the Hitler sense, in that the reasoning follows a certain logic. But not everyone understands it in a Mustang sense, in that they agree that the logic is an equally good and plausible solution.

I think this option means you understand it in the Mustang sense.




I can't understand how you can make any kind of point giving an example of that twisted sick nut who murdered over 6 million human beings!!!!!

[tbfoster1]

I chose option 1. I've been a big Ramsey fan but he is just not cutting it. I felt sick watching him in preseason and was actually excited to see Brunell. I don't like it that I've become a flip flopper since I hated Brunell last year but thats the way it goes.

Certainly Brunell did not look as sharp against a first string defense as he did in preseason. But he didn't look horrible either. In the preseason he had alot of zip and accuracy that wasn't there last year. I think or at least I hope that with practice with the first team this week and that couple of quarters in a real game under his belt he will become comfortbable and tear Dallas a new arsehole on Monday.

Really I think that whoever is under center is going to be on a short leash for me this year. I want production. With our roster there is no reason for no production. :dalassuk: :dalassuk:

[Patrick]

I have the feeling that a loss in Dallas and Patrick will be the starting QB for the Seattle game.

[bwparker]

I can't understand how you can make any kind of point giving an example of that twisted sick nut who murdered over 6 million human beings!!!!!
Umm...The heinousness of his actions have absolutely zero effect on the ability to use him as part of an arguement. The point here is that people have tried to understand WHY he did what he did(and I'll point out its important to learn about these sort of things to help prevent them.) And while any sain person may be able to articulate a reason for doing so, I'm not sure if I can ever UNDERSTAND it, in the whole sense of the word. Its too horrible of an, too far gone, too sick and twisted for me to identify with. So not only CAN I make an aguement based on him, I have and its a good one.

[smoak]

I have the feeling that a loss in Dallas and Patrick will be the starting QB for the Seattle game.

At that point we might as well go to Campbell. Honestly, a loss in Dallass and we might as well kiss the season goodbye. I know most wouldn't agree with that, but I see this team as fragile and needing a spark to bring it all together. Beating Dallass would be that spark.

[IowaSkinsFan]

I have the feeling that a loss in Dallas and Patrick will be the starting QB for the Seattle game.

Brunell would probably need 3 TO's in this game to get pulled. Even then it probably wouldn't happen.

But if Joe is serous about showing the team that he wants TO's eliminated, then yanking Brunell under the same conditions that he yanked Ramsey would send that message. But it doesn't mean he can keep flip flopping on starting QB's. At some point he has to pick one.

[redwolf1218]

i thought Brunell should have started in the first place.

[RedKnight]

How about we use Ramsey to start the game and Burnell finish the game when we have the lead ?

[70chip-on-1]

Yeah Quarterback by committee! Its Ramsey's ball to march down the field from our own territory.. then down in the red zone we give the ball over to brunell (our redzone speacialist)!