Got some good crazy for you here

[Spence]

Who is to blame for Katrina? Depends on who you ask. Let's ask Al Qaeda:A masked man claiming to speak for al-Qaida has produced a 16-minute Internet video "newscast" praising Iraqi insurgents and Palestinians.
...
The telecast concluded speaking of the Aug. 29 strike of Hurricane Katrina on the United States.

"The whole Muslim world was filled with joy," the anchorman said, adding U.S. President George Bush was "completely humiliated by his obvious incapacity to face the wrath of God, who battered New Orleans, city of homosexuals."Source (http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20050927-08300100-bc-alqaida.xml)

Now, let's ask the right-to-lifers at Columbia Christians for Life (http://www.christianlifeandliberty.net/) , who sent out this explanation in a mass e-mail:The image of the hurricane ... with its eye already ashore at 12:32 p.m. Monday, August 29, looks like a fetus (unborn human baby) facing to the left (west) in the womb, in the early weeks of gestation (approx. 6 weeks). Even the orange color of the image is reminiscent of a commonly used pro-life picture of early prenatal development.http://www.salon.com/ent/col/fix/2005/08/30/tue/story.gif

[C-7]

That is crazy. In fact, it's so crazy I don't even understand it.

[redskin_rich]

Oh boy, the Columbia Cristians for Life use the holocaust on their website in relation to abortion. It is simply amazing to me that we have worse religious zealots than Al Qaeda.

[GibbsRules!]

Columbia South Cakalaki.

Oh my....

[BurgundyNGold]

Oh boy, the Columbia Cristians for Life use the holocaust on their website in relation to abortion. It is simply amazing to me that we have worse religious zealots than Al Qaeda.
Not that I'm defending these whackos, but you don't 1.37 million abortions per year in the US alone qualifies as a holocaust? Not even a little bit?

[redskin_rich]

Not that I'm defending these whackos, but you don't 1.37 million abortions per year in the US alone qualifies as a holocaust? Not even a little bit?
I don't think it is anywhere near an accurate comparison.

[CNYSkinFan]

Not that I'm defending these whackos, but you don't 1.37 million abortions per year in the US alone qualifies as a holocaust? Not even a little bit?

There is serious disagreement over whether a zygote or a fertilized egg in the first 3 months of gestation represents a human life or not. I personally think it does, and that is why when I was 17 and my girlfriend was pregnant we decided to keep our child (I now have sole custody of my daughter who is turning 16 in January). However that distinction I believe can not be made on scientific grounds nor medical grounds but on personal beliefs and religious beliefs. Thus why I am pro-choice.

[BurgundyNGold]

I don't think it is anywhere near an accurate comparison.
Not to stir up an argument, but if it is their belief that a fetus is a person, well, let's just say that 1.37M is a big number.

[BurgundyNGold]

There is serious disagreement over whether a zygote or a fertilized egg in the first 3 months of gestation represents a human life or not. I personally think it does, and that is why when I was 17 and my girlfriend was pregnant we decided to keep our child (I now have sole custody of my daughter who is turning 16 in January). However that distinction I believe can not be made on scientific grounds nor medical grounds but on personal beliefs and religious beliefs. Thus why I am pro-choice.
Actually, you and I have the same position with the same reasoning. Well, aside from the fact that I don't have any children and I don't think it is "life" for at least 3 months. I'm pro choice. To a point. I feel the first trimester if enough time to realize that you're pregnant and whether or not you can give the child-to-be a good home. Since this is when 88% of abortions happen, it seems to be a popular cutoff point. Since the youngest preemies are living from about 4-1/2 months, it doesn't seem to be a conflict.

However, in the end I -- like I suspect many Americans -- choose to take the easy way out. When is a life a life? I don't know. Embarassingly, neither does science. I don't have the answers, so I don't think about it. Meanwhile, 1.3 million or so abortions happen every year in the US alone. That is a staggering figure that could be reduced by 90% or more within 10 years with the day after pill -- opposed by these pro-life groups.

So, we're at a stalemate. All the while, I can't help but think that 100 years from now, my grandchildren's children might look back at us with the same sense of barbarism that we see Nazis, slave traders and Spanish Conquistadors. All because we didn't want to ask ourselves the tough questions.

[redskin_rich]

Not to stir up an argument, but if it is their belief that a fetus is a person, well, let's just say that 1.37M is a big number.
I'm hopeful that those 1.37M weren't killed out of hatred.

[BurgundyNGold]

I'm hopeful that those 1.37M weren't killed out of hatred.
Not to sound callous, but dead is dead. How and why the holocaust victims died is completely overshadowed by the fact that they're gone. Millions of them. We can't bring them back either and there is no doubt that at one time these were living, vibrant souls. That said, if it turns out that life starts earlier than the actual birth of a child, wouldn't the victims of the millions of abortions that have happened be just as dead?

[redskin_rich]

Not to sound callous, but dead is dead. How and why the holocaust victims died is completely overshadowed by the fact that they're gone. Millions of them. We can't bring them back either and there is no doubt that at one time these were living, vibrant souls. That said, if it turns out that life starts earlier than the actual birth of a child, wouldn't the victims of the millions of abortions that have happened be just as dead?
I understand the argument you are making but I don't see how genocide and abortion can be equated.
There are many reasons for abortion, I don't agree with all of them but I do believe in choice.

[akhhorus]

Not that I'm defending these whackos, but you don't 1.37 million abortions per year in the US alone qualifies as a holocaust? Not even a little bit?

Even if you accept a fetus as a seperate life, I think there is a big difference between the government allowing its citizens the choice whether to have an abortion or not(and never officially encouraging it) and a government that systematically set about on exterminating undesirable peoples or many governments enslaving peoples. The right to choose an abortion isn't going anywhere not because we are morally hypocrites or because we are weak or morally bankrupt, it isn't going anywhere because this Government decided that the issue is one of privacy and privacy of choice and its not the government's place to get involved in this issue. So its up to the people to decide for themselves whether or not to have the procedure. Im all for realistic measures to reduce abortions, but criminalizing it isn't one of them. Expanding free birth control programs and pragmatic sex education(rather than the moronic abstinence progrmas) will do more to reduce abortion than anything else.

[BurgundyNGold]

I understand the argument you are making but I don't see how genocide and abortion can be equated.
There are many reasons for abortion, I don't agree with all of them but I do believe in choice.
I'm not asking you to believe or not believe anything. I'm pro-choice because I'm a pragmatist. I realize that, in light of the evidence or lack thereof, it is the choice of the woman to do what she will with her body. Easy, straightforward and nearly absolute. However, the same pragamtism that leads me to that position leads me to understand that since we don't have all the facts, we might very well be wrong about when life begins. Considering the 10s if not 100s of millions of aborted fetuses in human history, that prospect is a haunting thought.

If you and I turn out to be wrong -- and in the future we will know for sure -- it will most certainly be a holocaust. In fact the numbers would dwarf the actual holocaust. And the only reason for it would be convenience and prolonged indifference.

That's my only concern. What if we're wrong? And it makes me angry because this whole thing could become a non-issue if we approved that day after pill.

[BurgundyNGold]

Even if you accept a fetus as a seperate life, I think there is a big difference between the government allowing its citizens the choice whether to have an abortion or not(and never officially encouraging it) and a government that systematically set about on exterminating undesirable peoples or many governments enslaving peoples. The right to choose an abortion isn't going anywhere not because we are morally hypocrites or because we are weak or morally bankrupt, it isn't going anywhere because this Government decided that the issue is one of privacy and privacy of choice and its not the government's place to get involved in this issue. So its up to the people to decide for themselves whether or not to have the procedure. Im all for realistic measures to reduce abortions, but criminalizing it isn't one of them. Expanding free birth control programs and pragmatic sex education(rather than the moronic abstinence progrmas) will do more to reduce abortion than anything else.
I agree 100%. But you of all people know that the Henry Clay's of the world will keep the wrong to keep the peace. Just because government decides to do something or not do something doesn't make it right. It just so happens, since there is no definitive answer as to when life begins, government errs on the side of personal freedom. I think that's the right thing to do.

That said, if we woke up one day and there was incontrovertible proof that life started, say 12 weeks in, then government would have a dilemma indeed. After 12 weeks, they'd have to account for the personal rights and freedoms of two American lives.

[akhhorus]

I agree 100%. But you of all people know that the Henry Clay's of the world will keep the wrong to keep the peace. Just because government decides to do something or not do something doesn't make it right. It just so happens, since there is no definitive answer as to when life begins, government errs on the side of personal freedom. I think that's the right thing to do.

That said, if we woke up one day and there was incontrovertible proof that life started, say 12 weeks in, then government would have a dilemma indeed. After 12 weeks, they'd have to account for the personal rights and freedoms of two American lives.

Which is exactly why the Government took the correct position and said: Its up to you. Not our call. If you want one you have to live with that decision and if you don't want one you have to live with that decision as well. And this is why Roe v Wade will never be overturned no matter who's on the court.

[RedskinsDave]

Well there is more than ample evidence that late term abortions are taking a life so I take it all here are in agreement that those are murder.

[BurgundyNGold]

Which is exactly why the Government took the correct position and said: Its up to you. Not our call. If you want one you have to live with that decision and if you don't want one you have to live with that decision as well. And this is why Roe v Wade will never be overturned no matter who's on the court.
I don't think it'll ever be overturned either. However, I could see it getting "refined".

[swheeler]

Well there is more than ample evidence that late term abortions are taking a life so I take it all here are in agreement that those are murder.
Seeing as there's no real definition of when life begins, I don't think you can make that statement. I do not agree that it is murder. I don't wholeheartedly disagree either, but I don't think there's "ample evidence" to go one way or the other.

[Spence]

But does a satellite image of Katrina look like a fetus and, if so, does that mean Katrina was sent to punish New Orleans for its clinics that provide abortion? [And if so, what is God up to? Louisiana has far fewer such clinics than most states.]

[dukeuch]

Not that I'm defending these whackos, but you don't 1.37 million abortions per year in the US alone qualifies as a holocaust? Not even a little bit?

Nope. Now if it were 1.37 million live babies, than yes.

[dukeuch]

But does a satellite image of Katrina look like a fetus and, if so, does that mean Katrina was sent to punish New Orleans for its clinics that provide abortion? [And if so, what is God up to? Louisiana has far fewer such clinics than most states.]

Agreed. And if we are rebuilding on the WTC site to show the terrorists they can't win, then who are we showing when we rebuild New Orleans?

[RedskinsDave]

Seeing as there's no real definition of when life begins, I don't think you can make that statement. I do not agree that it is murder. I don't wholeheartedly disagree either, but I don't think there's "ample evidence" to go one way or the other.

I can make that statement just fine. When a doctor has to go in and kill the baby (oops, I mean fetus) when it can live outside the mother, it is murder. Medical science has proven that a baby can live outside the mother after the first trimester. Sure the odds aren't good but they exist. Partial birth abortion is flat out disgusting.

[redskin_rich]

I can make that statement just fine. When a doctor has to go in and kill the baby (oops, I mean fetus) when it can live outside the mother, it is murder. Medical science has proven that a baby can live outside the mother after the first trimester. Sure the odds aren't good but they exist. Partial birth abortion is flat out disgusting.
I agree with you for the most part. I don't know what medical science you are referring to though. A fetus/baby doesn't have lungs until after the 24th week, so how could it survive before then?


BTW, it is also disgusting to claim a natural disaster is an act of punishment from God.

[BurgundyNGold]

Nope. Now if it were 1.37 million live babies, than yes.
That's the point. Nobody can say for sure when life begins at this point. Not you or me or the whackos on either side of the pro-life/pro-choice political debates.

[BurgundyNGold]

Agreed. And if we are rebuilding on the WTC site to show the terrorists they can't win, then who are we showing when we rebuild New Orleans?
The world. Hubris rocks.

[BurgundyNGold]

BTW, it is also disgusting to claim a natural disaster is an act of punishment from God.
Agreed. It's amazing that these folks are certain that life exists in a zygote fetus from conception (without proof to that effect) and that God who they also know exists (without proof to that effect) has taken to punishing New Orleans for its subjective morality or lack thereof. It is simply amazing that these people warrant any sort of attention that doesn't involve thorazine.

[akhhorus]

Agreed. It's amazing that these folks are certain that life exists in a zygote fetus from conception (without proof to that effect) and that God who they also know exists (without proof to that effect) has taken to punishing New Orleans for its subjective morality or lack thereof. It is simply amazing that these people warrant any sort of attention that doesn't involve thorazine.

I was talking to my mother last week and she was railing how New Orleans was being punished for their sin(s) and I asked: "So, is God just biding his/her time on Amsterdam, Los Angeles and Las Vegas waiting for a time to strike?" I can't post her response to that.

[MoeRedskins]

Daily Show (http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_daily_show/index.jhtml)

On a related note, they talked about this on the Daily Show and it was histarical. Link to the show is above. Go to headlines and then look for This Week in God: Katrina.

[HAWGZHEAD]

Who is to blame for Katrina? Depends on who you ask. Let's ask Al Qaeda:Source (http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20050927-08300100-bc-alqaida.xml)

Now, let's ask the right-to-lifers at Columbia Christians for Life (http://www.christianlifeandliberty.net/) , who sent out this explanation in a mass e-mail:http://www.salon.com/ent/col/fix/2005/08/30/tue/story.gif
Speechless.... Completely Speechless.

[HAWGZHEAD]

The sattelite image looks more to me like a profile bust of Peter Griffin looking at Louisiana to me. MY GOD.... :thinker: Family Guy is responsible for Katrina.

[Spence]

Unlucky there's a family guy...

[PyroGenic]

I agree with you for the most part. I don't know what medical science you are referring to though. A fetus/baby doesn't have lungs until after the 24th week, so how could it survive before then?


BTW, it is also disgusting to claim a natural disaster is an act of punishment from God.

isn't that the month after the first trimester?

[redskin_rich]

isn't that the month after the first trimester?
Week 24 is near the end of the 2nd trimester. Each trimester is about 13 weeks.

[dukeuch]

The world. Hubris rocks.

But if God sent the hurricane, aren't we thumbing our nose at God's will?

[CNYSkinFan]

But if God sent the hurricane, aren't we thumbing our nose at God's will?

That is why God sent Rita tooo. Why does God hate Freedom?

[BurgundyNGold]

But if God sent the hurricane, aren't we thumbing our nose at God's will?
No, it's God's will to drive out the sinners (aka "have nots") so that we can show the world how we perservere and overcome as we put up those new, taxpayer-subsidized waterfront condos for his chosen people (aka "haves").

[CNYSkinFan]

No, it's God's will to drive out the sinners (aka "have nots") so that we can show the world how we perservere and overcome as we put up those new, taxpayer-subsidized waterfront condos for his chosen people (aka "haves").

blessed are the rich. For they shall inherit the earth....from the poor.

[Paintedbird]

Who is to blame for Katrina? Depends on who you ask. Let's ask Al Qaeda:Source (http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20050927-08300100-bc-alqaida.xml)

Now, let's ask the right-to-lifers at Columbia Christians for Life (http://www.christianlifeandliberty.net/) , who sent out this explanation in a mass e-mail:http://www.salon.com/ent/col/fix/2005/08/30/tue/story.gif

I knew it! Pat Robertson is working for Al Qaeda!

[Paintedbird]

There is no right or wrong on the issue. You might as well flip a coin. That's just the way it is about some things. Sorry.

[BurgundyNGold]

Apparently, this is left field --->
There is no right or wrong on the issue. You might as well flip a coin. That's just the way it is about some things. Sorry.