View Full Version : Ah more freedom of speech....not
RedskinsDave
10-27-2005, 03:18 PM
We have the right to say what ever we want in this country. Unless of course what we say offends someone.
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/5187226/detail.html
I don't agree with the kid but he has as much a right to say what he said as anyone does to disagree with it.
one more reason to despise PA ;)
smoak
10-27-2005, 03:51 PM
Wouldn't the University have the right to set forth their own code of conduct that has nothing to do with freedom of speech. For example, I culd not at work go off on a similar and rant as this kid? I would rightly be fired or at the least it would be addressed with me by an HR representative?
Wouldn't the University have the right to set forth their own code of conduct that has nothing to do with freedom of speech. For example, I culd not at work go off on a similar and rant as this kid? I would rightly be fired or at the least it would be addressed with me by an HR representative?
if he was representing the university, yes. facebook, however, is not associated with any university nor is it regulated by an intercollegiate body.
PyroGenic
10-27-2005, 03:57 PM
if he was representing the university, yes. facebook, however, is not associated with any university nor is it regulated by an intercollegiate body.
what if it was an NFL player or something? You'd think the NFL would probably fine them. Look at what Parcells got for comparing football to a kamikaze attack or whatever he said, no fine but he had to apologize (which I'm guessing the 10 - Page essay is gonna have to be about).
smoak
10-27-2005, 03:59 PM
Yeah, I didn't really read the full article (just skimmed it), but I can see where his comments made away from the University shouldn't necessarily be taken into consideration. it is a fine line though... I don't think 1st ammendment protects against punishment from private institutions/organizations?
what if it was an NFL player or something? You'd think the NFL would probably fine them. Look at what Parcells got for comparing football to a kamikaze attack or whatever he said, no fine but he had to apologize (which I'm guessing the 10 - Page essay is gonna have to be about).
that's not comparable as the referees are employees of the NFL. in this case, there is no connection to the school.
MoeRedskins
10-27-2005, 04:18 PM
Why would people complain to the school about something this kid said on facebook.com? Who reads what people say on facebook.com? I just think the university probably has bigger issues then what one kid said on a website that has no officalition with the school in a little blurb.
akhhorus
10-27-2005, 04:23 PM
I believe Duquesne is a private college, they can make the rules they want. They weren't censoring him, he violated a specific rule on harrassment or discrimination that the college had. He knew the rules when he went to the school. BYU bans sex on campus, can a student sue for being expelled for having sex since sex is legal? If a private college bans guns from campus, can a student sue since having a gun is legal?
Ibleedburgundy
10-27-2005, 05:27 PM
A University can deny a student a degree for any reason it chooses. They don't have to award you their seal of approval and after what this kid said, I could never give him mine. Duquesne may have felt similarly so they are trying to make him write a paper about gays in the Catholic Church.
They call it "higher education" because you are supposed to graduate from ignorant points of view. That's a leap this guy isn't going to take anytime soon.
Spence
10-27-2005, 05:47 PM
Subhuman? I could start off by noting that it is always the ones screaming the loudest about it, but...Well, I guess I just did. :D A private university can establish a code of conduct that restricts speech like that. Whether they should do that is, of course, an entirely separate issue. This is another one of those issues complicated by the internet. Is posting such a slur on a website fundamentally different from writing a letter to the school newspaper or putting up a flier near the student union? I'm not familiar with that particular school, but if it is a private university this kid doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. If I was the chancellor I'd issue a press release condemning the little twerp and then take him aside privately and suggest that Regent University and Liberty University are eager for applicants such as him. Not sure what I'd do beyond that.
Now, what if he'd called African-Americans "subhuman"? Or Jews? Or Methodists? Catholics? Does that change anyone's opinion of how to handle the kid? Should the university allow people to say things about gays they wouldn't allow them to say about other people? Or should there be a single standard?
CNYSkinFan
10-27-2005, 06:32 PM
If I read this write he also postd a link on his online Profile at the University to the blog, thus using the University as a sounding board for his thoughts. I doubt if he just posted the blog and made no reference to it on his online profile they would have any case to actually do anything about it. However since the student used the University to promote his beliefs he is responsible for the consequences of those beliefs.
And besides he is probably gay anyways and just trying to hide it.
Paintedbird
10-27-2005, 08:17 PM
Subhuman? I could start off by noting that it is always the ones screaming the loudest about it, but...Well, I guess I just did. :D A private university can establish a code of conduct that restricts speech like that. Whether they should do that is, of course, an entirely separate issue. This is another one of those issues complicated by the internet. Is posting such a slur on a website fundamentally different from writing a letter to the school newspaper or putting up a flier near the student union? I'm not familiar with that particular school, but if it is a private university this kid doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. If I was the chancellor I'd issue a press release condemning the little twerp and then take him aside privately and suggest that Regent University and Liberty University are eager for applicants such as him. Not sure what I'd do beyond that.
Word: Don't send the little creep to us.
Sincerely, Chancellor Paintedbird
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b265/crazyhorse123456/Paintedbird.jpg
RedskinsDave
10-28-2005, 12:18 PM
As I suspected. The predictable defense of the school's actions by the left. Had this been a black kid who called whites "the devil" or something along those lines there would be kicking and screaming over the kid's right to say what he wants. Thanks for playing.
lakewinola
10-28-2005, 12:20 PM
As I suspected. The predictable defense of the school's actions by the left. Had this been a black kid who called whites "the devil" or something along those lines there would be kicking and screaming over the kid's right to say what he wants. Thanks for playing.
You can't be on both sides dude. You can't argue for the right of the boy scouts to actively engage in discrimination and be against the right of a private university to establish its own rules and enforce them.
Spence
10-28-2005, 12:30 PM
As I suspected. The predictable defense of the school's actions by the left. Had this been a black kid who called whites "the devil" or something along those lines there would be kicking and screaming over the kid's right to say what he wants. Thanks for playing.What nonsense. Private schools have the right to create their own speech codes. That's a fact. If you don't like it you should take it up with those librulcommiepinkos who wrote the Constitution. The notion that I'd answer differently if this involved a black kid writing/uttering bigotry about whites is absurd. Where's your evidence of this? When are you going to outgrow this incredibly childish stereotype you have of liberals? Here's a bit of help: We don't like being called "the devil" by anyone. [Full disclosure: No black person has ever called me "the devil," though a few right-wing whites have come pretty close.]
All I did was defend the school's legal right to expel or otherwise punish the kid if they so desire. I never wrote that they should do that. As chancellor, I'd encourage someone like that kid to go to a different school because bigots of all kinds generally don't belong at diverse institutions. I wouldn't throw him out of the school, though. I tend to think morons like that kid help the cause of tolerance. The more bigotry is publicly associated with idiots, the better.
Spence
10-28-2005, 12:32 PM
You can't be on both sides dude. You can't argue for the right of the boy scouts to actively engage in discrimination and be against the right of a private university to establish its own rules and enforce them.That's a great point. Wish I'd thought of it. Of course, Dave can be on both sides -- just watch him. He can't do it convincingly, though.
RedskinsDave
10-28-2005, 12:50 PM
That's a great point. Wish I'd thought of it. Of course, Dave can be on both sides -- just watch him. He can't do it convincingly, though.
So you think that a kid speaking his mind is the same thing as a group discriminating? I surely don't. Here's the thing kids, he didn't discriminate against anyone. He gave an opinion. That's it. He didn't stop any gay person from doing anything. You are the ones trying to be on two sides as usual. It's always the "right of the school" to make their own rules when the offender disagrees with you. On that same note, I take it you feel that the Boy Scouts are well within their grounds to decide what is or is not offensive and homosexuality can be one of them.
Spence
10-28-2005, 01:01 PM
So you think that a kid speaking his mind is the same thing as a group discriminating? I surely don't.Eh? What's this about? If you believe one private institution has the right to admit whomever it likes [the Boy Scouts of America] then you must, to be consistent, admit that other private institutions have the right to admit whomever they like [Duquesne University].
Here's the thing kids, he didn't discriminate against anyone. He gave an opinion. That's it. He didn't stop any gay person from doing anything.Who suggested this kid discriminated against anyone? Dave, what are you getting at here? The kid is not discriminating against anyone, he's just using poisonous language to verbally assault a lot of people. No one thinks that's discrimination. As far as I know, nobody has accused him of discrimination. I certainly have not.
You are the ones trying to be on two sides as usual. It's always the "right of the school" to make their own rules when the offender disagrees with you.Dave, seriously -- are you feeling all right? I'm not trying to be on two sides. My position is perfectly consistent. Private institutions may admit whomever they like. That's my view as applied to universities or country clubs or the Boy Scouts of America. I reserve the right to deplore their decision, but they have the right to make it. Just as I have the right to form a private club that refuses to admit as a member anyone who thinks homosexuals are "subhuman." My positions is perfectly consistent and perfectly clear. I don't see how you can maintain your accusations.
On that same note, I take it you feel that the Boy Scouts are well within their grounds to decide what is or is not offensive and homosexuality can be one of them.You take it correctly. As with the school in question, a private institution can establish its own rules about who it admits and what sort of behavior they permit. Neither you nor I have to approve of those rules, we just have to accept that they have a right to exist.
RedskinsDave
10-28-2005, 01:31 PM
My bad, I meant harassment when I wrote discriminate. He didn't harass anyone as well.
akhhorus
10-28-2005, 03:19 PM
My bad, I meant harassment when I wrote discriminate. He didn't harass anyone as well.
The school felt he did, and again, they are a private institution. And he's not being expelled for writing what he wrote, he's being expelled for refusing to write an essay about it. If you were wearing a sign on the street saying: "All (Insert ethnic group here) are subhuman!!!" and your company fired you because they had a rule against their employees engaging in any sort of discriminatory behavior or discriminary harrassment, you would have no law suit.
BYU prohibts members of the opposite sex from entering the bedrooms of a student in off campus housing. Thats more of a violation of civil rights than what Duquense is doing.
Spence
10-28-2005, 03:21 PM
BYU prohibts members of the opposite sex from entering the bedrooms of a student in off campus housing.But it is perfectly okay to enter the bedroom of someone from your own sex? Sounds like BYU is promoting the "homosexual agenda." I always knew those Mormons were a bit fruity.
And in other news, Sulu is gay. No kidding.
akhhorus
10-28-2005, 03:23 PM
But it is perfectly okay to enter the bedroom of someone from your own sex? Sounds like BYU is promoting the "homosexual agenda." I always knew those Mormons were a bit fruity.
And in other news, Sulu is gay. No kidding.
Yeah, I saw that last night, but c'mon, everyone saw the looks that him and Scotty were shooting at each other.
CNYSkinFan
10-28-2005, 11:06 PM
Yeah, I saw that last night, but c'mon, everyone saw the looks that him and Scotty were shooting at each other.
I still think something wqqas up with Deforest Kelly....I mean the guy wore an ascot everywhere he went.
Agrawog
10-31-2005, 01:43 AM
We have the right to say what ever we want in this country. Unless of course what we say offends someone.
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/5187226/detail.html
I don't agree with the kid but he has as much a right to say what he said as anyone does to disagree with it.
for the last time: the 1st ammendment does not allow for anyone to say anything. It is not a 'right'. All it says is that the Government can not pass a law preventing free speech. That's it.
private institutions can make any rule they want when it comes to their employees or students and their speech. Please stop throwing around the 1st amendment in this moronic fashion.
BTW - looks like this kid comes from the Santorum school of gay rights:
When asked if he thought calling something subhuman was harassment, Miner replied, "I don't in the context I meant it to be. I meant the actions are subhuman, not the individual."
All of your arguments about whether or not the guy actually harassed anyone or discrimmated against anyone are moot. A private instituation can do what they want within certain limits and I am sure the student had some code of conduct to read and sign so he has no excuses. If he doesn't like it, guess what - leave the University.
As for if a black man started talking about 'white devils' i would hope the university would do the same - absolutely.
RedskinsDave
10-31-2005, 08:37 AM
I am so glad I can hold onto this thread so the next time some conservative group wants to exclude someone I can bring it back and so many will be forced to stay quiet or eat their words.
Keino
11-01-2005, 06:38 PM
So you think that a kid speaking his mind is the same thing as a group discriminating? I surely don't. Here's the thing kids, he didn't discriminate against anyone. He gave an opinion. That's it. He didn't stop any gay person from doing anything. You are the ones trying to be on two sides as usual. It's always the "right of the school" to make their own rules when the offender disagrees with you. On that same note, I take it you feel that the Boy Scouts are well within their grounds to decide what is or is not offensive and homosexuality can be one of them.
He gave an opinion using the University Message board and posting a link to it. Knowing it wouldn't be tolerated and was against the rules of the University to dehumanize an entire group of people. That would be like someone putting a link to a porn site in their profile here and then getting upset when we banned their butt for doing it.
swheeler
11-02-2005, 10:30 PM
He gave an opinion using the University Message board and posting a link to it. Knowing it wouldn't be tolerated and was against the rules of the University to dehumanize an entire group of people. That would be like someone putting a link to a porn site in their profile here and then getting upset when we banned their butt for doing it.
Good analogy, but you wouldn't even have to ban them. The real comparison would be if you just asked for an apology.
Agrawog
11-04-2005, 02:16 AM
I am so glad I can hold onto this thread so the next time some conservative group wants to exclude someone I can bring it back and so many will be forced to stay quiet or eat their words.
Hey Dave, the next time someone in a private institution wants to exclude somebody based on what they say, do, or believe rather than their race, sex, or sexual orientation then i will also be on your side. Don't confuse the two things - they are entirely different. People control what they say or do, they don't control what color they are.
Duh.
VTBob
11-12-2005, 11:45 AM
for the last time: the 1st ammendment does not allow for anyone to say anything. It is not a 'right'. All it says is that the Government can not pass a law preventing free speech. That's it.
Thats all it might say in writing, but through precident it has come to cover free speech. Same with the right to privacy, its not written anywhere in the Constitution but through court argument and precident its become a right the Supreme Court has upheld...
BurgundyNGold
11-12-2005, 01:54 PM
Wouldn't the University have the right to set forth their own code of conduct that has nothing to do with freedom of speech. For example, I culd not at work go off on a similar and rant as this kid? I would rightly be fired or at the least it would be addressed with me by an HR representative?
You get paid to go to work. You pay a university for the service of providing you an "education". Big difference.
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