Special Teams and Offense Need Improvement

[santanadasavior]

I have noticed over the last few weeks, John Hall's kickoffs only go to the 15. He gets them deep sometime but that's not good enough. And Derrick Frost, on the biggest punt of the season. Kicks it to the first down marker. Our cover units have been good on punts but the one today was iffey (DID YOU SEE DERRICK FROST FLY, OOOOO YEAH). Our kickoff coverage has been laughable. Our returns have been consistant but I would like more. What's wrong with our guys?

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I completely agree..the other team's offense keep starting drives on their 35 yard line, even when we have good coverage...and that punt by Frost was UNBELIEVABLE...14 yards...I mean, I'm positive I could have kicked it further than 14 yards...
And while we're at it..Antonio Brown cannot keep fumbling the ball..aside from one good return he really hasn't done anything good this year..

[EberKain]

We were bad at ST last year, we have vastly improved this year but occasionally relapse. I just have to lay it on the ST Coordinator Danny Smith. At this point we have to consider a new coach there. We made one coach change last season, I think this should be on the consideration table for next season. And hey, I love Antonio Brown, and I love his potential. But we need to fire his ass, again.

[silverspring]

Don't get me started about frost. He had some horrible ones. Like that one he put in the endzone when we were looking for a short punt, it would have been better if we went for it. Frost makes me pull out my hair every game.

Hall doesn't seem as strong as he once was. But he kicked decent and he made that 47 yard field goal, so i can't complain.

[santanadasavior]

I completely agree..the other team's offense keep starting drives on their 35 yard line, even when we have good coverage...and that punt by Frost was UNBELIEVABLE...14 yards...I mean, I'm positive I could have kicked it further than 14 yards...
And while we're at it..Antonio Brown cannot keep fumbling the ball..aside from one good return he really hasn't done anything good this year..

That's why I like a guy like Thrash back there. He's not going to break a lot of big ones, BUT HE WILL MAKE NO MISTAKES.

[silverspring]

I agree with the negative sentiment towards danny smith...he needs to go this offseason, not only do his guys not execute but he makes some poor player decisions...frost.

I will give brown a break on this one, he did recover and he did get clocked, but yes bonehead play.

[whistleandthumb]

Hard to knock Frost too hard, when he put his body on the line to save a TD earlier in the game.

[IHATEDALLAS'82'87'91]

I completely agree..the other team's offense keep starting drives on their 35 yard line, even when we have good coverage...and that punt by Frost was UNBELIEVABLE...14 yards...I mean, I'm positive I could have kicked it further than 14 yards...
And while we're at it..Antonio Brown cannot keep fumbling the ball..aside from one good return he really hasn't done anything good this year..
Yea I agree

[Odyn]

Well, to back John Hall is kicks did get remarkably better. If I recall his first went to the 15, second to the 10 then to the 5, and after he made the fg he actually made it down to the goalline. Hmmm....seems like he relaxed a bit.

On Frost....hey we all knew it was coming. That S.O.B had been playing too good so he needed a sh*t one to balance out all the 50 yarders.

[whitskins]

I think it's hard to criticize how deep Hall kicks the ball off. Hall got it near the goalline once and barely at the 15 a couple other times. This could be part of the coverage scheme. Novak used to pop the ball up almost straight in the air when he was here. It looked like Smith had Hall kicking the ball off short and when that wasn't working he had him go for longer kicks. But it's hard to assume either way because we just don't know.

Frost had some pretty good punts today but his 14 yarder was a joke. For everyone who wants to blame Smith for this I'd ask them to pay attention to any other team in the NFL who has lost their starting punter or kicker. The guys who are on the streets at these two positions freaking suck. This is a universal truth in the NFL. The Cowboys went through like 200 terrible kickers this year off the scrap heap. All were garbage. Should their special teams coach get fired too?

The coverage units on kicks and punts were a little leaky at times today, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt because they have been solid all year. One game isn't going to sour me on these units.

Our return game is very lacking, mostly because we hitched our wagon to Antonio Brown who seems like a great guy and has serious speed, but absolutely no moves when trying to avoid a tackle. His TD return against Arizona was great, but that was the most dominant wedge blocking I had ever seen. He just ran through a massive hole. He also fumbles way too much. I'd love to draft a pure return guy like Hester from Miami if we can this year. If we just got a guy who was a legit threat back there then we'd be in great shape.

Also, to everyone who wants to see Smith fired, get over it because Gibbs loves him like a brother and if our punter and kicker had both stayed healthy we'd probably have one of the top overall units in the league. Right now Fox's DVOA rankings has us at 14 overall in special teams, that's still pretty good compared to what we're usually seeing from our ST units.

[Axegrinder]

They are all that we have.
Next season,different story.

[GolfFreak]

Hall needs to get them deeper more consistently. There were a couple that went deep, but most were short.

Something to work on!

[Syllable]

The kick where he landed it at the 1-3 was when he had some more room to run before the kick.

[dcumdfan]

They are all that we have.
Next season,different story.

Amen to that! Hall needs to get healthy or we need to bring in Novak. Hall has nice accuracy but the power just isnt there anymore.

[TupaFan]

Frost isn't consistant. He had two punts around 50 yards. That last one was just horrible. One punt should have gone towards the corner, but went into the end zone. I sure hope Tom is back next year. I'm used to more perfect punting. :)

John's FG was AWESOME!! That one kickoff was at the 5. Positives. Is John at 100%?

Coverage units were horrible. They have been a big improvement from last year. I hope next week is much better.

Danny, he will be here next year. When you have the injuries, it is hard to work around that. Next year will tell if he stays or goes.

[The Iceman]

I'd like to see Frost GONE.. Bring back the Ohio State boys!!!!!!!!!!!!!


John Hall..... healthy or no?? I say no. Two years ago he was one of the leaders in kickoffs for touchbacks in the League. I think he'll be good to go next year.

[santanadasavior]

I'd like to see Frost GONE.. Bring back the Ohio State boys!!!!!!!!!!!!!


John Hall..... healthy or no?? I say no. Two years ago he was one of the leaders in kickoffs for touchbacks in the League. I think he'll be good to go next year.

I just want to know what do we do now to minimize mistakes and help the game of field position. If Seattle starts at the 35 every possesion, they will get into field goal range 9 out of 10 times just because of Alexander. I would like to see Thrash returning punts because he will not make a mistake and he won't lose yard trying to make a play.

[FanFromArizona]

I am surprised we have not heard anything about our famed punter, Tom Tupa. How is he doing and what should we expect next year?

I for one would like to have Tupa and someone other than Hall next year.

Hey, TupaFan, how's your boy doing? Is he coming back to us healthy next year?

[santanadasavior]

I am surprised we have not heard anything about our famed punter, Tom Tupa. How is he doing and what should we expect next year?

I for one would like to have Tupa and someone other than Hall next year.

Hey, TupaFan, how's your boy doing? Is he coming back to us healthy next year?

Another fact to remember, Tupa is old. He could be thinking about retirement after this injury. I think that a healthy hall is a top 10 kicker in the league, so I would just like to give him time to get better. Also, he has a fire that you can't find of a kicker very often. He makes sure we have 11, not 10, guys covering the kickoffs. I like him when he is healthy, but if he gets cut again he is gone.

[FanFromArizona]

Another fact to remember, Tupa is old. He could be thinking about retirement after this injury. I think that a healthy hall is a top 10 kicker in the league, so I would just like to give him time to get better. Also, he has a fire that you can't find of a kicker very often. He makes sure we have 11, not 10, guys covering the kickoffs. I like him when he is healthy, but if he gets cut again he is gone.

Tupa is still definitely a top 5 punter, he was CRITICAL last year with his booming kicks and his ability to punt directionally and to place the punt accurately enough to pin the opponents' offense deep in their end zone.

Old for a punter is not really as bad as being old at other positions. I think Tupa still has a few years left in him, and I would even venture that your statement of "I like him when he is healthy, but if he gets cut again he is gone" would apply just the same to Tupa.

Hall, however, just has not been the same. I think his kick is losing some distance, and if you can't muster it up effectively, we need to look somewhere else. Hall has been critical this year in a comprehensive sense, but I must look at his ability to kick a long field goal, I seem to remember the game against San Diego where he failed to have the distance to make the last second field goal from about 47,48 yards out. I would have been more sympathetic if he had hooked it , but I am concerned that he could not even reach the field goal, to me that is a sign of weakness in the leg, and does not inspire my confidence in his ability to kick long field goals. It is imperative in this league to be able to kick long field goals, considering how stingy defenses are becoming. I think he is rapidly approaching the downturn in his career, he has already peaked and seen his best days.

JMO.

[smoak]

Chill folks! Frost had a game and a half until the punt where Tampa brought the house. He had to get the kick off in a hurry and shanked it.... But folks we don't win that game without his tackle. And Hall's kickoffs got better and better...

Anyone who wants me to pull over so they can get off the bandwagon is more than welcome to raise their hand!

[redwolf1218]

Frost also booms them into the end zone a lot. when we are trying to win a field position battle, he doesnt seem to be able to kick them high and drop them down inside the 10.

[Dept_of_Defense]

What is going on with our special teams? I almost had a heart attack watching Tampa return some of our kickoffs. They brought it out to the 40 almost every time. Brunnell throwing 7 completions for 41 yards? 125 total yards of offense? Wow.... Our defense really saved us and I don't know if they can keep doing that. Defenses have completely shut down Cooley the last 2 games and he fumbled today... We need to get Cooley involved again and keep pounding Portis to open up Santana. Our defense is amazing, but we still have to find ways to put up more points on offense or we won't be playing for much longer.

[Fathead]

Frost almost killed us with the shank. But he also made a game saver on a return. We are just inconsistent on special teams.

[whitskins]

Chill folks! Frost had a game and a half until the punt where Tampa brought the house. He had to get the kick off in a hurry and shanked it.... But folks we don't win that game without his tackle. And Hall's kickoffs got better and better...

Anyone who wants me to pull over so they can get off the bandwagon is more than welcome to raise their hand!

Seriously, Smoak. I'm with you on this, our return unit gives up a few early runs and a scrap heap punter shanks a kick (even after having probably his best game as a Skin up until that point) and people want to talk about firing folks after our first playoff win in six years.

Sometimes I don't get it. It's like no matter what there's gotta be someone to hurl tomatoes at. I'm as critical of some Redskins as anyone else, but we did just win a massive playoff game against a division winner on the road. And we're still whining about the PUNTER???

I don't get it...

[colkurtz]

I think Hall has lost some of his distance. Yes he made a 48 yd FG and had a kick to the 5, but most of his kicks are shorter than that, with teams starting around the 35.

Frost is inconsistant - that 14 yarder could have cost us the game.

Overall the lick coverage is either good or almost breaks it.

Antonio Brown will not be a Redskin next season. Too many fumbles. I can't really say our ST are a positive for our team. With our offensive issues, we need improvement in the part of the game.

[WorldBFree76]

John Hall has been struggling a bit with the kickoffs, which is part of the reason why they were always taking it back so far.

[CNYSkinFan]

The offense was horrible, but it was going against the #1 defense in the league. I will wait and see what happens next week.

That said Danny Smith has made EVERY wrong decision when it came to the kicking game this year. It is obvious Hall has never healed and why we got rid of Nick Novak , who btw is a kickoff specialist in AZ, I will never know. And Derrick Frost is just HORRIBLE and has been HORRIBLE all year. Groom was better and why this switch was made I will never know either.

Danny Smith, thie kicking game is all on you my boy.

[NamVet4]

Special Teams .... inconsistent, up and down... No continuty...
I agree with Dustin, it is on Coach Danny Smith... However, that being said, it is still the 11 men on the field that make the effort. IMHO we need a ST player who can step up and take charge... and no, I don't know who that player is.....
just my 2 cents....

[IHATEDALLAS'82'87'91]

We need to make some moves in the off-season. Like we need a punter. Frost Sucks.

[helimech24]

I don't know what to do about Frost. One kick and he launches it 50+ yards, and then the next one is 17 yards. Everyone makes mistakes, but this happens every game. I would rather a punter that gets 40 every time than to go between 50-17 at any given time.

[SkinsKY]

Chill folks! Frost had a game and a half until the punt where Tampa brought the house. He had to get the kick off in a hurry and shanked it.... But folks we don't win that game without his tackle. And Hall's kickoffs got better and better...

Anyone who wants me to pull over so they can get off the bandwagon is more than welcome to raise their hand!

we have a winner. Frost shanked the punt because he had to get it off quicker due to poor blocking. If you watch it, he can't extend his leg out for fear of getting it blocked. Now, if it had gotten blocked, we would have been in a world of trouble. Not a great punt, but better than the alternative. I don't really want Frost back next year, but he didn't do much wrong yesterday.

[DarkLord91]

Derrick Frost: master of the 20 yd roll. At least he made that tackle.

[redwolf1218]

maybe we were all just spoiled by Tupa last year. he could angle it to the corners, or drop it down to Thrash at the one, or boom it. If Tupa was a QB converted into a punter and he could learn to do all that, then i hope Frost can eventually learn it too. if all you have to do to make a living is punt a football, it doesnt seem like too much of a stretch to be able to master those things.

dude showed some speed on that tackle though! we have the best tackling kicker and punter combo in the league, but i keep hoping they wont have to be used in that capacity too much.

[redskin_rich]

I don't know what to do about Frost.
I do, get him the heck out of here before he costs us a game.

[helimech24]

That's why I like a guy like Thrash back there. He's not going to break a lot of big ones, BUT HE WILL MAKE NO MISTAKES.

I agree with you, but we can't get another receiver hurt that is playing #2 WR. If we had Patten still, Thrash would be back there, but he is now starting so I don't think they want to jeapordize it.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Threads merged.

[helimech24]

Chill folks! Frost had a game and a half until the punt where Tampa brought the house. He had to get the kick off in a hurry and shanked it.... But folks we don't win that game without his tackle. And Hall's kickoffs got better and better...

Anyone who wants me to pull over so they can get off the bandwagon is more than welcome to raise their hand!

YOU DA MAN. You nailed it with this post on the kicking and the negative threads going up. We WON. For the most part, Frost was doing great. And I don't care if Hall never gets the ball down to the 10 yard line. Hall tackles like a LB and give 110% on the kickoffs. He also get involved in the game and getting these hyped up. Name another kicker that does any of that.

[Dept_of_Defense]

maybe we were all just spoiled by Tupa last year. he could angle it to the corners, or drop it down to Thrash at the one, or boom it. If Tupa was a QB converted into a punter and he could learn to do all that, then i hope Frost can eventually learn it too. if all you have to do to make a living is punt a football, it doesnt seem like too much of a stretch to be able to master those things.

dude showed some speed on that tackle though! we have the best tackling kicker and punter combo in the league, but i keep hoping they wont have to be used in that capacity too much.
I know Tupa was put on the IR this season, but what are the chances he'll be back next year? We really miss this guy...

[Blind-sided]

S.T. does need improvement , as far as the O. Well they faced the number one D in the NFL in there house and did enough to win. I don't think theres any thing wrong with the O. Just faced a very ,very, tough D is all. So now all we're gonna hear all week is our offense is not there ,not ready , can't score. Which will over shadow what an excellent job the D did. This team will be ready for the hawks on both sides the ball. They have a good defense but nothing like Tampa's. M. Brunell and this team will get things going next Saturday and will give our D a chance to T-OFF on the hawks. Besides who cares about stats a win is a win. I'm proud of everyone on that team. They all played hard and the coachs had them well prepared.

[GoDannyBoy]

I am happy to wait for next season.

When are punter went down in the last preseason game and then our kicker goes down in first game I thought the season was over.

I would have liked to keep Groom, but it didn't happen. We made it though the season where other teams with kicking trouble didn't. So give the coaches the benefit of the doubt and let them change the broken parts next year.

Enjoy the playoffs!

[Chief Seeway]

Our teams are pretty bad. I was talking about it at the game yesterday, on fourth down we should throw a hail-mary.

[GWBlitzST]

I can't excuse Frost for the punt into the end zone when we were on the freaking 34 yard line. Antonio Brown should never be anywhere near a football. I can't believe he's on the team. It's the playoffs, where is Moss? If we're not gonna throw it to him, then at least let him field punts. He ran one back last postseason.

[GWBlitzST]

Danny Smith=bad special teams. I've said it from the get-go, and he reinforces it every week. Horrible field position, week in, week out.

[TupaFan]

I am surprised we have not heard anything about our famed punter, Tom Tupa. How is he doing and what should we expect next year?

I for one would like to have Tupa and someone other than Hall next year.

Hey, TupaFan, how's your boy doing? Is he coming back to us healthy next year?

Well, from what I know as of the beginning of November, Tom was still having some trouble. I don't know to what extent. He was still getting therapy at Redskins Park. I think the good news is, he has had no surgery or anything like that. Being on IR, if surgery was something that needed done, it would have been done by now. So, I would assume he is getting better and will be OK to go next year. As long as he can go next year, no reason to sign another punter. Well, to challenge Tom in training camp and preseason!! Tom still has 2 years left on his contract, so he should be around, as long as he can play. Tom should have gone to the Pro Bowl last year. Darn it!!

Yeah, my boy will be 40 on February 6th. He is just like fine wine though. Just gets better with age!! :) Sean Landetta is still playing. He is 44. Age is not a factor when you are a kicker. As much as the other positions on the team.

Oh, BTW, Tom is on the sidelines during the games. Looks pretty good to me!! He is always standing. He will be back!!

[smoak]

YOU DA MAN. You nailed it with this post on the kicking and the negative threads going up. We WON. For the most part, Frost was doing great. And I don't care if Hall never gets the ball down to the 10 yard line. Hall tackles like a LB and give 110% on the kickoffs. He also get involved in the game and getting these hyped up. Name another kicker that does any of that.

Plus on top of that, at this point in the season, guys don't want to go to war with someone new in there. These are people you've worked with all season and you know what to expect even if it is not perfection.

Relax everyone. Gibbs knows what his doing.

[FanFromArizona]

Plus on top of that, at this point in the season, guys don't want to go to war with someone new in there. These are people you've worked with all season and you know what to expect even if it is not perfection.

Relax everyone. Gibbs knows what his doing.


For what we have, we need to stick with continuity.

However, IN THE OFFSEASON, we need to do another re-evaluation of what we have, especially on special teams, we need better results. I think we will make some adjustments.

[whitskins]

The offense was horrible, but it was going against the #1 defense in the league. I will wait and see what happens next week.

That said Danny Smith has made EVERY wrong decision when it came to the kicking game this year. It is obvious Hall has never healed and why we got rid of Nick Novak , who btw is a kickoff specialist in AZ, I will never know. And Derrick Frost is just HORRIBLE and has been HORRIBLE all year. Groom was better and why this switch was made I will never know either.

Danny Smith, thie kicking game is all on you my boy.

How has he made every wrong decision? This doesn't make sense. You'd like to keep Novak solely as a kickoff specialist? When our roster is short of CBs and WRs as it is you want to keep 2 kickers? Or are you saying that Novak should be the only kicker and Hall should be cut? Because Novak had TWO field goals blocked in 7 attempts (that's outrageous) while Hall has only missed two FGs all season, one of which was a 53 yarder. Where exactly did Smith blow it there?

And I'll just say again in regards to the punter that while Frost is far from good, Andy Groom ALSO SUCKED. For some reason Groom had a heck of a fan club for his two whole weeks on the team, but when he was cut he was the second to worst ranked punter in the NFL. 31 out of 32. Groom is no stud but right now he is ranked 22nd out of 32. He's also 17th in punts inside the 20. That's an improvement. Granted we need another improvement in the offseason (or get Tupa back healthy) but it's clearly the best we could do after losing our starting punter for the year in preseason and having to pick off the scrap heap.

Sorry if I sound like a Danny Smith apologist sometimes but it annoys me to hear calls that the guy should be fired or botched decisions all year when the ST units as a whole are much improved and he was hit by horrible luck with injuries to our starting kicker and punter this year.

It's also odd that people often justify other coaches decisions like Gregg Williams' by saying Gibbs has ultimate authority and if it's with him it's ok with us, but no one says this with regards to Smith and our special teams.

[santanadasavior]

we have a winner. Frost shanked the punt because he had to get it off quicker due to poor blocking. If you watch it, he can't extend his leg out for fear of getting it blocked. Now, if it had gotten blocked, we would have been in a world of trouble. Not a great punt, but better than the alternative. I don't really want Frost back next year, but he didn't do much wrong yesterday.

Either way you look at it our special teams is letting us down right now. I don't no how many times we've been biled out by the kick being so hort that the returner cannot field it and we then get a great roll to save ourselves. We cannot keep banking field position on which way that goofy looking ball will bounce.