Settle down folks, it was only a cartoon..

[RedskinsDave]

These morons are going to keep dying over a couple "offensive" cartoons in a Danish newspaper.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/07/AR2006020700243.html

[BurgundyNGold]

Yeah, I saw that. Who cares, really? If you're dumb enough to get yourself killed protesting over a stupid cartoon, I say you should be up for the Darwin awards. Good riddance.

[Spence]

What really bothers me is that the Danes keep apologizing. Since when do we need to apologize for free speech? And why is the Danish government apologizing for the Danish press? The only way to deal with a thug is to stand up to him and, if necessary, punch his evil-smelling teeth down his throat. STOP COWERING, GODDAMMIT! STOP TELLING THESE MONSTERS THAT YOU'RE WEAK!

[BurgundyNGold]

What really bothers me is that the Danes keep apologizing. Since when do we need to apologize for free speech? And why is the Danish government apologizing for the Danish press? The only way to deal with a thug is to stand up to him and, if necessary, punch his evil-smelling teeth down his throat. STOP COWERING, GODDAMMIT! STOP TELLING THESE MONSTERS THAT YOU'RE WEAK!
It's Europe in the 21st century, Spence. They are weak. And yet, still snobishly superior about it.

[fent]

apparently Iran is hosting a counter-cartoon "protest"

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-02-07T152958Z_01_L07723729_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-CARTOONS-IRAN-HOLOCAUST.xml&rpc=22

their mindset amazes me. someone draws a cartoon that offends you so you riot. trust me, as a republican and former DeLay staffer, i feel their pain, but rioting? c'mon now! then you look at the reaction to a ship that sank. do they sue or take other legal action to remedy the situation? no...people storm the company headquarters with torches and bombard the place with rocks. brilliant!

[Seebs]

Just for info, cos I don't know if it made it through the Atlantic, but we are already to 3 newspapers reproducing those cartoons in France. 2 being among the national daily newspaper.
We also had 2 bomb alerts on the HQ of those newspaper...
And the politics just say it is freedom of speech, even if you have to pay attention not to offend people's belief.

[Spence]

It's Europe in the 21st century, Spence. They are weak. And yet, still snobishly superior about it.Well, none of us should feel superior, since 15 Saudi Arabians funded almost entirely by Saudi Arabians murdered 3000 Americans on a single day and this is how our government responded:

[BurgundyNGold]

apparently Iran is hosting a counter-cartoon "protest"

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-02-07T152958Z_01_L07723729_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-CARTOONS-IRAN-HOLOCAUST.xml&rpc=22

their mindset amazes me. someone draws a cartoon that offends you so you riot. trust me, as a republican and former DeLay staffer, i feel their pain, but rioting? c'mon now! then you look at the reaction to a ship that sank. do they sue or take other legal action to remedy the situation? no...people storm the company headquarters with torches and bombard the place with rocks. brilliant!
Exactly. They looted a Christian neighborhood in Beirut over this. So, apparently, drawing an image of Mohammed is unforgivable, but looting, buring and stealing is just fine. That sounds EXACLTY like the teachings of the Koran. :rolleyes:

[BurgundyNGold]

Well, none of us should feel superior, since 15 Saudi Arabians funded almost entirely by Saudi Arabians murdered 3000 Americans on a single day and this is how our government responded:
I don't feel superior to anyone. Except maybe sherry/kelly/merlin. I just get a kick out of how others on the decline publish that facade and perpetuate the denial.

[Spence]

I don't feel superior to anyone. Except maybe sherry/kelly/merlinl.:)

[RedskinsDave]

My real problem with the cartoons is they weren't funny. The only one that was worth anything was the one of Mohammad standing in "heaven" saying "stop it, we're out of virgins." That one was okay.

[BurgundyNGold]

My real problem with the cartoons is they weren't funny. The only one that was worth anything was the one of Mohammad standing in "heaven" saying "stop it, we're out of virgins." That one was okay.
So, to paraphrase "Seinfeld", you weren't offended by the cartoons as a Muslim, you were offended as a comedian? :)

[Ibleedburgundy]

The one where Muhammad has a bomb for a turban is not funny but there is a sobering truth about it.

[BurgundyNGold]

What the Danes SHOULD do is to put out a cartoon about a bunch of idiots rioting in the Middle East, lol.

[Axegrinder]

Just think of the damage the creators of South Park could cause.

[flave1969]

It's Europe in the 21st century, Spence. They are weak. And yet, still snobishly superior about it.

I take great exception to this statement. With all due respect the fact that Denmark published these pictures first and Half a dozen countries followed suit in solidarity would contradict your assertion of weakness. As the Danish Government watch their Middle Eastern businesses go up in flames along with their embassies, I am not surprised they are apologising for the offence caused. It is the diplomatic thing to do because whenever this dies down we all have to move on. We should be clear here they are not apologising to the protestors they are apologising to fellow Governments. I am also yet to see Denmark apologise for having free speech, only that sensitivities having been trampled on.

Is the UK weak because we have not published the cartoons? It has been a conscious decision to show restraint, but if your way of thinking is right we have been weak.

The reaction to the photos has been completely disproportionate yet you could have seen it coming a mile off. Why we engage and feed these maniacs with the propaganda they need is completely beyond me. Let them be mad and crazy under their own steam.

[Seebs]

I don't know if all people are aware, but those cartoons were published 4 month ago in Denmark. It just found echo those past weeks as Imams from Denmark toured arabic nations for support.

I wanted to report sth on that (sth I heard on the radio this morning) but I can't find a link so I won't do it for now.
I find quite disturbing not to find a link as this radio is quite serious.

[tommahawk]

Just think of the damage the creators of South Park could cause.

I have a vision..

Mohammad, Sadam, and the devil in hell......

[RedskinsDave]

Funny story on MSNBC last night. A flag store owner in Gaza heard about the cartoons and put in an order for Danish flags so he could sell them to the folks looking to burn one. First democracy and now capitalism. I'm all misty.

[BurgundyNGold]

I take great exception to this statement. With all due respect the fact that Denmark published these pictures first and Half a dozen countries followed suit in solidarity would contradict your assertion of weakness. As the Danish Government watch their Middle Eastern businesses go up in flames along with their embassies, I am not surprised they are apologising for the offence caused. It is the diplomatic thing to do because whenever this dies down we all have to move on. We should be clear here they are not apologising to the protestors they are apologising to fellow Governments. I am also yet to see Denmark apologise for having free speech, only that sensitivities having been trampled on.

Is the UK weak because we have not published the cartoons? It has been a conscious decision to show restraint, but if your way of thinking is right we have been weak.

The reaction to the photos has been completely disproportionate yet you could have seen it coming a mile off. Why we engage and feed these maniacs with the propaganda they need is completely beyond me. Let them be mad and crazy under their own steam.
No offense meant to the UK, flave. You guys are technically Europe (when you want to be ;)) but my assessment was more directed at continental Europe. I should've made that ditinction.

And yes, the Danes are being pansies and seccumbing to pressures about free speech. Enough apologizing. The government never should've apologized in the first place.

[BurgundyNGold]

I have a vision..

Mohammad, Sadam, and the devil in hell......
What are you doing? Trying to start a riot in the Potomac???

:D

[flave1969]

No offense meant to the UK, flave. You guys are technically Europe (when you want to be ;)) but my assessment was more directed at continental Europe. I should've made that ditinction.

And yes, the Danes are being pansies and seccumbing to pressures about free speech. Enough apologizing. The government never should've apologized in the first place.

But there is a bigger picture here. The Danes surprisingly have huge business interests in the middle east, especially in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon. Thousands of jobs are on the line in Denmark, the trade with the middle east is worth in region of $2.5Billion Dollars. Denmark is a small country and I definately feel it is simply trying to protect its interests as well as the 3000 Danish citizens working in the Middle East. They are in a dangerous situation right now.

As I said earlier the reaction has been ridiculous around the world. It has actually opened a healthy debate within Denmark itself as this article shows.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4692318.stm

[BurgundyNGold]

But there is a bigger picture here. The Danes surprisingly have huge business interests in the middle east, especially in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon. Thousands of jobs are on the line in Denmark, the trade with the middle east is worth in region of $2.5Billion Dollars. Denmark is a small country and I definately feel it is simply trying to protect its interests as well as the 3000 Danish citizens working in the Middle East. They are in a dangerous situation right now.

As I said earlier the reaction has been ridiculous around the world. It has actually opened a healthy debate within Denmark itself as this article shows.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4692318.stm
The apologies and abandonment of free speech -- one of the Western world's core values -- is a national embarassment for the Danes. The economic interests will be there after all of this. The Danish dignity was taken a hit, though.

BTW, here's what should've been said by the Danish government in response to the moron herds in riot:


It's called freedom of the press. You should try it sometime.

Next question?

[flave1969]

BNG
Are you saying it was wrong for the Danes to apologise for the Offence caused.

Also please show me where free speech has been abandoned by the Danes.

[BurgundyNGold]

BNG
Are you saying it was wrong for the Danes to apologise for the Offence caused.
Yes. It is not the government's responsibility nor is it it's place to apologize for their newspapers. If an apology was to be issued, it should've been by the newspaper and/or the artist.

Also please show me where free speech has been abandoned by the Danes.
The government's job is to defend free speech. Not to kowtow to those who would not only seek to squash it, but that are in the middle of rioting, buring and murdering because of it.

[flave1969]

Yes. It is not the government's responsibility nor is it it's place to apologize for their newspapers. If an apology was to be issued, it should've been by the newspaper and/or the artist.

So when Danish Ambassadors were being called before various governments around the world to explain you think they should have basically said it wasn't me and done nothing on a diplomatic level to quell the obvious growing crisis. Which is basically what happened.

When the Danish Prime Minister met with Danish Muslim groups, should he not have sought to reassure those groups that offence was not meant.

The newspaper which is well known for it's provocative stance and it's far right leanings but it actually did apologise

The government's job is to defend free speech. Not to kowtow to those who would not only seek to squash it, but that are in the middle of rioting, buring and murdering because of it.

Again I am yet to see where the Danes have failed to defend free speech. These cartoons appeared last September. There has been no censure handed down, no prosecutions have taken place, no orders were handed down to withdraw the cartoons. This has gone where it has because a group of ten Danish Clerics were not satisfied with the reaction of the Danish Government. As a result they took the cartoons and travelled overseas to garner support for their poison little cause. Four months later it all blows up onto a bigger stage.

As for Kowtowing to the protestors, I have seen little of that, in fact the Danish PM has openly accused Syria and Iran of causing the trouble we see around the world. Asking for all sides to have an open constructive dialogue as the Danish PM in the face of an obvious growing crisis does not smack of restricting speech but actually encouraging it in a much more constructive platform.

I see the line my Government has taken as being much more accommadating of Muslim sensitivities. Saying that we support freedom of speech, but at the same time welcoming the restraints that British papers have taken by not publishing the Cartoons is a far more hypocritical stance.

[BurgundyNGold]

So when Danish Ambassadors were being called before various governments around the world to explain you think they should have basically said it wasn't me and done nothing on a diplomatic level to quell the obvious growing crisis. Which is basically what happened.
What crisis? A bunch of idiots are rioting. They could've called the incident "regrettable" or something, but it was neither their place to apologize nor to tell the newspaper what it could or could not publish. At least they got the second part right.

When the Danish Prime Minister met with Danish Muslim groups, should he not have sought to reassure those groups that offence was not meant.
He shouldn't have been meeting with those groups about this issue any more than you or I should be. As I read that link you posted, the Mislim groups value Western ideals. Part of that is free speech. It's OK to be upset about it, as I'm sure they were, but you can't change the rules just because you don't like what someone else says. BTW, I notice how it never crossed the minds of Danish Muslims to go our rioting and looting. Maybe this isn't a Muslim or diplomatic problem. Maybe it's an idiot problem.

The newspaper which is well known for it's provocative stance and it's far right leanings but it actually did apologise
As I would've if I were in their position. Truth be told, even I knew better to even depict the prophet Mohammed as anything other than a single dot -- let alone suggesting a bomb for a turban. Ever seen a movie about Mohammed? There's a reason for that. There's only one movie I know of that attempts to depict Mohammed and it did so as a sinlge dot on a page.

Again I am yet to see where the Danes have failed to defend free speech. These cartoons appeared last September. There has been no censure handed down, no prosecutions have taken place, no orders were handed down to withdraw the cartoons. This has gone where it has because a group of ten Danish Clerics were not satisfied with the reaction of the Danish Government. As a result they took the cartoons and travelled overseas to garner support for their poison little cause. Four months later it all blows up onto a bigger stage.
Yeah, I listened to an interview with one of those clerics on NPR this morning. This guy knew what he was doing and took no responsibility for the results of doing it.

As for Kowtowing to the protestors, I have seen little of that, in fact the Danish PM has openly accused Syria and Iran of causing the trouble we see around the world. Asking for all sides to have an open constructive dialogue as the Danish PM in the face of an obvious growing crisis does not smack of restricting speech but actually encouraging it in a much more constructive platform.
How many times has a Danish representative apologized for what was written in a private newspaper? Each time is a blow to free speech. You might not see it that way, but I do. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

I see the line my Government has taken as being much more accommadating of Muslim sensitivities. Saying that we support freedom of speech, but at the same time welcoming the restraints that British papers have taken by not publishing the Cartoons is a far more hypocritical stance.
Again, the Danish government had no grounds to get involved. These other countries governments might've called the Danes, but then again they all run state controlled or monitored news services. The answer to them is clear: "What happened is regrettable but it does not reflect the opinions of the Danish people. I hope this minor incident does not affect our relationship moving forward". Done and done.

As for the British opting to not show the cartoons, that is their right. Free speech also includes the right to NOT say something. I don't begrudge them for their discretion. It is their right as much as it is to run the cartoon, which I also wouldn't begrudge. I might personally think such a decision to be insensitive and stupid, but that's how it goes.

[RedskinsDave]

I think the basic gist of all of this is that these people are nuts and will basically look for any reason at all to riot and burn things.

[flave1969]

All quotes are from B&G, I cant remember how to quote multiple paragraphs seperately. sorry.

What crisis? A bunch of idiots are rioting. They could've called the incident "regrettable" or something, but it was neither their place to apologize nor to tell the newspaper what it could or could not publish. At least they got the second part right.

On a diplomatic level it is very much a crisis. If countries are expelling your Ambassadors, it is a diplomatic crisis. Also I would say burning of Embassies is pretty serious. What it has done is actually switched the point of focus to the fundamentalists, and that is a good thing because the more we see these idiots the more people rally against them, this is actually the case in Denmark.

He shouldn't have been meeting with those groups about this issue any more than you or I should be. As I read that link you posted, the Mislim groups value Western ideals. Part of that is free speech. It's OK to be upset about it, as I'm sure they were, but you can't change the rules just because you don't like what someone else says. BTW, I notice how it never crossed the minds of Danish Muslims to go our rioting and looting. Maybe this isn't a Muslim or diplomatic problem. Maybe it's an idiot problem.

I don't think it is unusual for Politicians to meet with interest groups on any subject in most Western countries. It happens in the UK all the time. There is definately a seperation from the moderate Danish Muslims and the Imams who started this. The article below shows the cartoons and alludes to this.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698

I think you may be right this is an idiot problem.

How many times has a Danish representative apologized for what was written in a private newspaper? Each time is a blow to free speech. You might not see it that way, but I do. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

We will have to disagree. Apologising for the offence caused is not the same as apologising for what was written IMO. I would be worried if the Danes had censured the newspaper but they didn't and are on record for saying that the newspaper had the right to do what it did, and also that they were not responsible for what it did.

Again, the Danish government had no grounds to get involved. These other countries governments might've called the Danes, but then again they all run state controlled or monitored news services. The answer to them is clear: "What happened is regrettable but it does not reflect the opinions of the Danish people. I hope this minor incident does not affect our relationship moving forward". Done and done

I don't think things work that way on a diplomatic level. Despite all this they do have interests outside this issue and interests that need protecting. Do you think the US administration is a bull in a China shop in these countries, I do not think so. In fact George Bush has had conversations with the Danish PM on exactly how to handle the situation. I think Britain and the US are acutely aware of what a tricky situation this is.

[flave1969]

I think the basic gist of all of this is that these people are nuts and will basically look for any reason at all to riot and burn things.

Basically Dave, you are right. I hope they carry on because soon people will forget the reason and just see the ugly face that spurred some of the cartoons in the first place.

[BurgundyNGold]

On a diplomatic level it is very much a crisis. If countries are expelling your Ambassadors, it is a diplomatic crisis. Also I would say burning of Embassies is pretty serious. What it has done is actually switched the point of focus to the fundamentalists, and that is a good thing because the more we see these idiots the more people rally against them, this is actually the case in Denmark.
I certainly think that the burning of embassies is a much larger crisis. Perhaps Denmark should be pulling their diplomatic staff to protest the stunning lack of security exhibited by those complaining countries. I might remind them that priorities seem out of whack.

I don't think it is unusual for Politicians to meet with interest groups on any subject in most Western countries. It happens in the UK all the time. There is definately a seperation from the moderate Danish Muslims and the Imams who started this. The article below shows the cartoons and alludes to this.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698

Certainly, meeting with constituents is what politicians do. Speaking on behalf of a private newspaper should not be and catering to the demands of people who are not your constituents is unacceptable.

We will have to disagree. Apologising for the offence caused is not the same as apologising for what was written IMO. I would be worried if the Danes had censured the newspaper but they didn't and are on record for saying that the newspaper had the right to do what it did, and also that they were not responsible for what it did.
Then they should be done with it already. I'm tired of seeing and hearing more and new responses to theis issue. What's done is done. The spotlight should be on those countries whose rioting and looting fools are embarassing Muslims the world over.

I don't think things work that way on a diplomatic level. Despite all this they do have interests outside this issue and interests that need protecting. Do you think the US administration is a bull in a China shop in these countries, I do not think so. In fact George Bush has had conversations with the Danish PM on exactly how to handle the situation. I think Britain and the US are acutely aware of what a tricky situation this is.
It is not a tricky situation. That's kind of what I was referring to with the whole "weak" comment. When dealing with this particular culture, you absolutely must have backbone. I wouldn't be surprised in the governments of the Middle East weren't inflaming this as a prodding maneuver to determine how the West might be exploited in future dealings.

The Danes should not make things more complicated than they already are. They should not inject shades of gray into a situation that they are already struggling to separate out to its black and white and primaries. Most importantly, they need to stop perpetuating this thing with press releases and sound bites. It's done. Nobody can take it back. International relationships exist because of mutual benefit. The Danes are in the Middle East because it benefits both parties. Nothing is going to happen to that. They should have just issued the statement that I suggested and let it dies out like the Salman Rushdie thing.

[flave1969]

I certainly think that the burning of embassies is a much larger crisis. Perhaps Denmark should be pulling their diplomatic staff to protest the stunning lack of security exhibited by those complaining countries. I might remind them that priorities seem out of whack.


Certainly, meeting with constituents is what politicians do. Speaking on behalf of a private newspaper should not be and catering to the demands of people who are not your constituents is unacceptable.


Then they should be done with it already. I'm tired of seeing and hearing more and new responses to theis issue. What's done is done. The spotlight should be on those countries whose rioting and looting fools are embarassing Muslims the world over.


It is not a tricky situation. That's kind of what I was referring to with the whole "weak" comment. When dealing with this particular culture, you absolutely must have backbone. I wouldn't be surprised in the governments of the Middle East weren't inflaming this as a prodding maneuver to determine how the West might be exploited in future dealings.

The Danes should not make things more complicated than they already are. They should not inject shades of gray into a situation that they are already struggling to separate out to its black and white and primaries. Most importantly, they need to stop perpetuating this thing with press releases and sound bites. It's done. Nobody can take it back. International relationships exist because of mutual benefit. The Danes are in the Middle East because it benefits both parties. Nothing is going to happen to that. They should have just issued the statement that I suggested and let it dies out like the Salman Rushdie thing.

I will draw a line under this I simply do not believe it is ever as Black and White as you suggest, but we are bound to have different perspectives because of where we are from.

Interesting that you mention Salman Rushdie, well it never really died down for him. He was forced into hiding after the Fatwa was issued. His publisher was attacked in 1993 five years after the book was published. A million pound bounty was doubled to 2 million in 1997 and the fatwa renewed. Protection for Rushdie has now cost Millions in the past 16 years. So it has not died out for all those involved, especially Rushdie.

[BurgundyNGold]

I will draw a line under this I simply do not believe it is ever as Black and White as you suggest, but we are bound to have different perspectives because of where we are from.

Interesting that you mention Salman Rushdie, well it never really died down for him. He was forced into hiding after the Fatwa was issued. His publisher was attacked in 1993 five years after the book was published. A million pound bounty was doubled to 2 million in 1997 and the fatwa renewed. Protection for Rushdie has now cost Millions in the past 16 years. So it has not died out for all those involved, especially Rushdie.
I meant in the context of the daily dealings of the world. Folks were out rioting about Rushdie too, but that died down. This cartoonist will probably get himself a Fatwa out of all of this too. The good news is that he can go live with Rushdie and the bill will be only half of what it would be otherwise. ;)

[flave1969]

I meant in the context of the daily dealings of the world. Folks were out rioting about Rushdie too, but that died down. This cartoonist will probably get himself a Fatwa out of all of this too. The good news is that he can go live with Rushdie and the bill will be only half of what it would be otherwise. ;)


Thats if they can find the guy, apparently the Cartoonists are laying so low you need to go Pot-Holing to find them.

[RedskinsDave]

Jesus H, do these people have jobs? Who's milking the goats?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/14/pakistan.cartoons.ap/index.html

Okay, we get it, you don't like pics of your great prophet. :weak:

[BurgundyNGold]

Jesus H, do these people have jobs? Who's milking the goats?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/14/pakistan.cartoons.ap/index.html

Okay, we get it, you don't like pics of your great prophet. :weak:

Torched Western businesses
Translation? Five finger specials all the way around in Lahore.

[RedskinsDave]

This just in: 15,000 athiests riot in London after a blank piece of paper was found on a cartoonist's desk.

[CNYSkinFan]

This just in: 15,000 athiests riot in London after a blank piece of paper was found on a cartoonist's desk.
that is pretty good even if you took a month to think about it.

[Spence]

This just in: 15,000 athiests riot in London after a blank piece of paper was found on a cartoonist's desk."That cartoonist would be struck down by our angry and vengeful God...if He existed. Which He doesn't. Hey, anyone wanna get some lunch?"

[CNYSkinFan]

And of course agnostics aren't sure whether to be offended or not while unitarians are both offended and tolerant at the same time.


and Scientologists are just crazy..

[Spence]

and Scientologists are just crazy..Uh-oh. That's a lawsuit.

[RedskinsDave]

Uh-oh. That's a lawsuit.

Or an ass-whoopin from Chef!