Moron Alert

[Spence]

Discussing his position on embryonic stem cell research with Baltimore Jewish leaders yesterday, Lt. Gov. Michael S. Steele said he is "concerned about the destruction of human life" and made a comparison between the controversial science and experiments done on Jews during the Holocaust.

"You of all folks know what happens when people decide they want to experiment on human beings, when they want to take your life and use it as a tool," said Steele, a Republican candidate for U.S. Senate, to a crowd of about 40 at a Baltimore Jewish Council board meeting. "I know that as well in my community, out of our experience with slavery, and so I'm very cautious when people say this is the best new thing, this is going to save lives."

Steele's remarks, which followed a well-received speech about his trip to Israel in November, came in response to a board member's question about Steele's stance on embryonic stem cell research. His answer stunned many in the audience.

"If the lieutenant governor was drawing a comparison between stem cell research and human medical experimentation during the Holocaust, he must understand the pain this kind of analogy would inflict on survivors and their families," Art Abramson, executive director of the Baltimore Jewish Council, said in a statement to The Sun. "We absolutely reject any comparisons between ethical and lifesaving medical research, and the horrors committed by the Nazis in their evil drive to create a master race. We welcome any clarification Lt. Gov. Steele can offer about his remarks."

Steele later issued a statement expanding on his comment.

"When I was asked the question about stem cell research, I had just finished speaking at length about my first trip to Israel and the powerful memories I had of my visit to the Holocaust museum there," Steele said. "Those memories have had a lasting impression on me, but in no way did I intend to equate the two or trivialize the pain and suffering of more than six million Jews."

Jewish Council board member Michele Lax said after the lunch that Steele's comments revealed a "total lack of sensitivity."

"I was just really shocked and outraged," said Lax, a retired attorney from Owings Mills. "I can't believe that he could make a comparison to the Nazis with embryonic stem cell research, which saves lives. It just shows you what his true colors are and how far right wing he is."

Sam Penn, a retired businessman and the board member who questioned Steele, said he thought the lieutenant governor's answer was "ludicrous."Source (http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-te.md.steele10feb10,0,7203255.story?coll=bal-business-headlines)

[Agrawog]

In this case I can see his point. You have to follow a right to lifer's logic here:

Embryos = life (as alive as any Jew in any concentration camp).
Stem Cell Research = medical experimentation (just like Mengele).
End Justifies the Means = same reason the Nazis gave.

let's not forget that Nazi scientists made a bunch of discoveries and advances using live, human test subjects. The point of comparison is simple if you believe an embryo is as alive as you and me and deserves the same righs as you and me.

This is a classic case of getting burned by the PC police because you touched one of the third rails of modern society: The Holocaust. The comments from some of the audience shows they did not understand his point at all.

"I was just really shocked and outraged," said Lax, a retired attorney from Owings Mills. "I can't believe that he could make a comparison to the Nazis with embryonic stem cell research, which saves lives. It just shows you what his true colors are and how far right wing he is."

The point of the research is immaterial (although Nazi scientists had mixed motives), the use of live subjects to conduct those tests is a disgusting practice - the difference comes in how you define 'live subjects'.

Once again a discussion in public has gotten off track and this guy started to back off his statements. It is said to see that no one is willing to stick by statements that are clearly his private thoughts. I may not agree with his position but I could at least respect when he took it. Now he is just a loser with no spine.

[RedskinsDave]

Excellent summarization Agrawog.

[Spence]

In this case I can see his point. You have to follow a right to lifer's logic here:

Embryos = life (as alive as any Jew in any concentration camp).
Stem Cell Research = medical experimentation (just like Mengele).
End Justifies the Means = same reason the Nazis gave.Good point and precisely the reason I named this thread Moron Alert. Anyone who equates gruesome experimentation on living human beings with experimentation on cells in a petri dish is a moron. One of those things thinks, feels pain, has family and memories. The other is a cell in a petri dish.

[dukeuch]

In this case I can see his point. You have to follow a right to lifer's logic here:

Embryos = life (as alive as any Jew in any concentration camp).
Stem Cell Research = medical experimentation (just like Mengele).
End Justifies the Means = same reason the Nazis gave.

let's not forget that Nazi scientists made a bunch of discoveries and advances using live, human test subjects. The point of comparison is simple if you believe an embryo is as alive as you and me and deserves the same righs as you and me.



Agrowog:

let's focus on this tidbit; could you please name me just ONE unique discovery/advance the Nazi scientists made as a result of their experiments in death camps?

[BurgundyNGold]

Agrowog:

let's focus on this tidbit; could you please name me just ONE unique discovery/advance the Nazi scientists made as a result of their experiments in death camps?
How is that relevant? The comparison is between life and perceived life.

[akhhorus]

Agrowog:

let's focus on this tidbit; could you please name me just ONE unique discovery/advance the Nazi scientists made as a result of their experiments in death camps?

Sad to say, but those experiments helped Werner Von Braun's program which he applied as head of NASA during the 60s.

[Keino]

How is that relevant? The comparison is between life and perceived life.


Not relevent to the discussion, but if Agrawog is going to assert that the Nazis made a bunch discoveries and advances, naming one shouldn't be too difficult. I was taken aback by that comment as well and would welcome some education as to what, if any, beneficial discoveries were made as a result of experimentation on live human beings.

[CNYSkinFan]

If Steele is actually comparing a full formed human life to stem cell research as Agrawog suggested then he should have stated so in his response. He did not he tried to mollify his comments to make them more acceptable seeing the ****censored by spence****storm that his comments dug up. So that either means:

A.) He is afraid of his own convictions and would rather foopl the public by mwatering down his original statement for fear of losing the vote of reasonably minded people

or more likely

B.) He was attempting to frame a debate on a current issue by inflaming the senses ofhis audience and comparing those he disagreed with to the Nazis and/.or committing genocide.

Either way he is remarkably unelectable and if as I think his choice was actually the latter he is using the holocaust to further his petty political views which is unfortunately unremarkable in the current political climate, but in this case so far off base it is not even funny.

[dukeuch]

How is that relevant? The comparison is between life and perceived life.

In terms of life vs. perceived lifem, it is not relavant. I am addressing Agrawog's arguement regarding benefits of otherwise repugnant policies. Look at the text of his I quoted, and ask him.

[BurgundyNGold]

Not relevent to the discussion, but if Agrawog is going to assert that the Nazis made a bunch discoveries and advances, naming one shouldn't be too difficult. I was taken aback by that comment as well and would welcome some education as to what, if any, beneficial discoveries were made as a result of experimentation on live human beings.
Agreed, that was a stupid statement.

[dukeuch]

Sad to say, but those experiments helped Werner Von Braun's program which he applied as head of NASA during the 60s.

I'm not questioning that you are correct, but I am interested in what, at least in general terms, you are talking about. Otherwise, I don't want to get into Nazis involvement in the US's rocket and space program. I got into all kinds of trouble the last time I did.

[akhhorus]

I'm not questioning that you are correct, but I am interested in what, at least in general terms, you are talking about. Otherwise, I don't want to get into Nazis involvement in the US's rocket and space program. I got into all kinds of trouble the last time I did.

Ok, in a nutshell:
Von Braun was in charge of the Nazi Rocket Program. He tested(or had tested) the effects of space vacuums on the human body on Concentration Camp prisoners and the physical human limits on simulated space travel on the human body on the same prisoners. This wasn't an official nazi project, he was allowed this project because his V-1, V-2 and V-3 rocket programs were successful(Not so much on the v-3, but it would have destroyed London if it wasn't destroyed). He then took the raw data he learned from these ghastly experiments and used them to accelerate the work for the NASA Apollo program and he was rewarded/punished for this work by being placed in charge of NASA.

[OCSkinzFan]

"I know that as well in my community, out of our experience with slavery, and so I'm very cautious when people say this is the best new thing, this is going to save lives."


HIS COMMUNITY!!??

Does he mean Republicans? Because as far as I know, a lot of his "community" throws marshmallows at him for some reason don't they?

[dukeuch]

Ok, in a nutshell:
Von Braun was in charge of the Nazi Rocket Program. He tested(or had tested) the effects of space vacuums on the human body on Concentration Camp prisoners and the physical human limits on simulated space travel on the human body on the same prisoners. This wasn't an official nazi project, he was allowed this project because his V-1, V-2 and V-3 rocket programs were successful(Not so much on the v-3, but it would have destroyed London if it wasn't destroyed). He then took the raw data he learned from these ghastly experiments and used them to accelerate the work for the NASA Apollo program and he was rewarded/punished for this work by being placed in charge of NASA.

Thanks for the info. By the way, I have long thought that, and stated in this forum, that the US's acceptance of Nazi scientists is one of the prime examples of American hypocrisy, that our stated ideals, such as denouncing torture, are often secondary to "practical" expediency.

[akhhorus]

Thanks for the info. By the way, I have long thought that, and stated in this forum, that the US's acceptance of Nazi scientists is one of the prime examples of American hypocrisy, that our stated ideals, such as denouncing torture, are often secondary to "practical" expediency.

Then you would be agreeing with Agrawog's original post, which you didn't to begin with.

[dukeuch]

Then you would be agreeing with Agrawog's original post, which you didn't to begin with.

No, I just thought that his point was not supported by fact. OK, the fact apparently is true, but I still think the point is moot. I understand and agree that if one reduces it to a matter of "well, if you beleive that stem cells represent life" than there is SOME merit.

But I think that any rational person, whatever your belief in stem cell research is, would agree that the jews killed in prison camps were more "alive" than a stem cell.

While I guess you have to acknowledge that even out of some evil acts, some benefit is derived, I have never felt too comfortable with such recognition. I mean, one could argue that at least because of 9/11, the US is more prepared against a nuclear attack by terrorists, but I would'nt do it.

[akhhorus]

No, I just thought that his point was not supported by fact. OK, the fact apparently is true, but I still think the point is moot. I understand and agree that if one reduces it to a matter of "well, if you beleive that stem cells represent life" than there is SOME merit.

But you just wanted to discuss that one little tidbit. Why is this suddenly tied into the wider issue?

But I think that any rational person, whatever your belief in stem cell research is, would agree that the jews killed in prison camps were more "alive" than a stem cell.

Some people don't make the distinction. Life is life; whether its in a petri dish or walking around.

While I guess you have to acknowledge that even out of some evil acts, some benefit is derived, I have never felt too comfortable with such recognition. I mean, one could argue that at least because of 9/11, the US is more prepared against a nuclear attack by terrorists, but I would'nt do it.

Thats completely different. Von Braun was scum of the earth, but his experiments advanced the US space program(this isn't an ends justifying the means comment, its repugnent to me). A major disaster leading to better preparation isn't a positive effect. Its a badly needed adjustment.

[dukeuch]

But you just wanted to discuss that one little tidbit. Why is this suddenly tied into the wider issue?



Some people don't make the distinction. Life is life; whether its in a petri dish or walking around.



Thats completely different. Von Braun was scum of the earth, but his experiments advanced the US space program(this isn't an ends justifying the means comment, its repugnent to me). A major disaster leading to better preparation isn't a positive effect. Its a badly needed adjustment.

I wonder how those people would view, say, their wife's fertilized egg in a test tube, as opposed to their wife sleeping next to them, equally? I mean, life is life to those folks, right?

As far as the Nazi experiments as originally brought up, I guess I don't understand how it relates to this whole argument. Do you? I questioned whether there were any positive contributions as a result of the experiments. Someone (not the original poster) brought one up. OK, so there was one, maybe more.

[akhhorus]

I wonder how those people would view, say, their wife's fertilized egg in a test tube, as opposed to their wife sleeping next to them, equally? I mean, life is life to those folks, right?

To some people, life begins after the woman says: "We can try again later, honey"

As far as the Nazi experiments as originally brought up, I guess I don't understand how it relates to this whole argument. Do you? I questioned whether there were any positive contributions as a result of the experiments. Someone (not the original poster) brought one up. OK, so there was one, maybe more.

Do you want me to come back after you're done talking to yourself? :D

[Agrawog]

Duke,

Your question caught me off guard and making an assumption. I thought it was common knowledge that medical advances were made in the concentration camps at the cost of human lives. I have never actually bothered to research that fact so you may be right (other than Van Braun about whom I know very little).

My overall point was in response to the comment quoted in my post. The commenter said that stem cell research could save lives while what happened to the jews was just death by cruel torture. I do not know the second part to be fact. Some of these doctors (in their demented minds) may have thought there was "benefit" to their experiments. I could make their argument but it is too disgusting to make even as a devil's advocate.

I thought commenter was comparing apples to oranges. The man in the article should have simply said he believes life is life and murder is murder so there is no difference no matter what the potential 'benefits'. Maybe that would have required too much intellectual integrity, I don't know.

Well after some research there appears to be some useful medical data from nazi experiments but they are not used for ethical reasons and it appears the scientists had no positives motives even if twisted.

Article: http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/NaziMedEx.html

An interesting topic for another time, but thanks for calling me on it Duke. I should always know what I am talking about.

[Spence]

Senator Arlen Specter [R-PA] makes a joke:
"Did you hear Sam Brownback made a movie? It's about two cowboys who meet, go straight and decide to devote their lives to stopping stem cell research. It's called Brownback Mountain."

and another one:
Senators Bill Frist, Sam Brownback and John McCain are talking about the presidency. Frist says, "I had a dream last night, and the Lord said to me, 'Sen. Frist, you are going to be the Republican nominee for the presidency.' "

Brownback says, "I had a dream last night, and the Lord told me that I would be the Republican nominee, and I would win the election."

John McCain says, "That's interesting, because I had a dream last night, and I don't remember speaking to either of you."Source (http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/local/13851519.htm)

[RedskinsDave]

Senator Arlen Specter [R-PA] makes a joke:


and another one:
Source (http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/local/13851519.htm)

:lol1:

[BurgundyNGold]

Senator Arlen Specter [R-PA] makes a joke:


and another one:
Source (http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/local/13851519.htm)
LOL! I especially like the McCain one. ;)