Austria and Germany need lessons on free speech

[RedskinsDave]

Right-wing British historian David Irving pleaded guilty Monday to charges of denying the Holocaust and was sentenced to three years in prison

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11455196/

A German court on Thursday convicted a businessman of insulting Islam by printing the word "Koran" on toilet paper and offering it to mosques

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060223/wl_nm/crime_religion_germany_dc_2

[akhhorus]

Nothing wrong with throwing David Irving in jail. He's a scumbag. And there's specific laws in Germany and Austria against claiming that the Holocaust never happened.

[fent]

Nothing wrong with throwing David Irving in jail. He's a scumbag. And there's specific laws in Germany and Austria against claiming that the Holocaust never happened.

has this case been going on for a while? i recognize his name and don't know if it's because of this case or something else.

[Keino]

Nothing wrong with throwing David Irving in jail. He's a scumbag. And there's specific laws in Germany and Austria against claiming that the Holocaust never happened.


You have to admit that seems pretty ridiculous though. Jailed for 3 years for making a bogus claim?

[fent]

You have to admit that seems pretty ridiculous though. Jailed for 3 years for making a bogus claim?

everyone that posts in here would have life sentences by now ;)

[akhhorus]

has this case been going on for a while? i recognize his name and don't know if it's because of this case or something else.

He has been sued (and counter-sued) with historians in Britain over this issue. The charge relates to a lecture he gave in 1989 that he was charged with and then left Austria. He came back to face the charge and was arrested. Every time he tries to defend his thesis and every time he loses, not matter where he is. He finally said in court that he believed the Holocaust happened and there were death camps, but the Austrians don't have a sense of humor about this. The irony of this is that he's going to be jailed in an old Gestapo jail.

You have to admit that seems pretty ridiculous though. Jailed for 3 years for making a bogus claim?

Not really. Its a specific law in those parts that you can't make this claim. You won't go to jail for just saying it in public, but you will go to jail if you make it as an academic claim or publish this claim. Irving flaunted this law and got nailed. He was convicted in Germany of this, but he agreed to never go to Germany again as a deal. Reportedly, he made the same deal with Austria in 1989, but obviously reneged on it.

[Spence]

Germany and Austria are both very free countries, with robust and rambunctious media. Not every country's experience is the same. Countries with a bad history in some areas may limit certain elements of free speech in ways that do not inconvenience 99.99999 percent of the population.

I would bring this up to a German friend I have, but he'd only laugh at me for complaining about this when I come from a country where half the population faints with moral outrage when Janet Jackson's nipple is exposed for half a second.

[RedskinsDave]

Germany and Austria are both very free countries, with robust and rambunctious media. Not every country's experience is the same. Countries with a bad history in some areas may limit certain elements of free speech in ways that do not inconvenience 99.99999 percent of the population.

This would be like us jailing some moron for saying that slavery never existed. It's so ridiculous, what is gained by jailing the idiot? I just think it adds to the embarassment of what occured years ago.

[Spence]

This would be like us jailing some moron for saying that slavery never existed. It's so ridiculous, what is gained by jailing the idiot? I just think it adds to the embarassment of what occured years ago.That's the American view and I'm sympathetic to it, but that's because I'm an American. If you're Austrian and Hitler was born in your country and Kurt Waldheim humiliated your country when his crimes were discovered and you're constantly watching for any signs of Nazi sympathy, you'd have a different viewpoint. Part of getting along in the world is attempting to understand the experiences of other people and learning not to necessarily regard their differences as inferiority.

Bride Burning = Cultural difference that is evil
Jailing Nazi sympathizers - Cultural difference that is not evil

[fent]

London's Mayor now in trouble for the other side of the coin.

http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/PA_NEWA8288901140777516A0000?source=PA%20Feed&ct=5

[RedskinsDave]

Part of getting along in the world is attempting to understand the experiences of other people and learning not to necessarily regard their differences as inferiority.

Three years in prison.... Sorry there's just no excuse for it unless they want to be told they still appear to hold some of the Nazi mentality.

[Ibleedburgundy]

Never underestimate the ethnocentricity of a staunch Republican.

[fent]

Never underestimate the ethnocentricity of a staunch Republican.

what the heck does this have to do with anything?

[Spence]

Three years in prison.... Sorry there's just no excuse for it unless they want to be told they still appear to hold some of the Nazi mentality.Hey, it's pretty rotten when some British nurse gets ten years in prison for having a bottle of booze in Saudi Arabia. It sucks. On the other hand, it's been the law of the land in that part of the world for about 13 centuries. When you travel in a foreign country you play by their rules or you stay home or you have some uncomfortable conversations with the local constabulary. This guy knew what he was doing when he did it and he knew the possible consequences. Save your sympathy for someone who deserves it.

[Keino]

what the heck does this have to do with anything?

I believe he is calling Dave Ethnocentric and further saying that it is a GOP trait.

eth·no·cen·trism
n.

The tendency to evaluate other groups according to the values and standards of one's own ethnic group, especially with the conviction that one's own ethnic group is superior to the other groups.

I tend to agree with Dave, but Spence's points are well received.

[RedskinsDave]

Never underestimate the ethnocentricity of a staunch Republican.

Never underestimate the stupidity of the first person eliminated from a 5th grade spelling bee.

[akhhorus]

Hey, it's pretty rotten when some British nurse gets ten years in prison for having a bottle of booze in Saudi Arabia. It sucks. On the other hand, it's been the law of the land in that part of the world for about 13 centuries. When you travel in a foreign country you play by their rules or you stay home or you have some uncomfortable conversations with the local constabulary. This guy knew what he was doing when he did it and he knew the possible consequences. Save your sympathy for someone who deserves it.

In the airport for Istanbul it has a big sign in English, German and French that reads:
"If deal in or use drugs, if you carry a gun or if you harm a child; you will find out that Midnight Express wasn't just a movie"

People have to realize that the Consitution doesn't apply to the entire world and while we might not agree with the law, it is still a law. Irving was charged in 89 and agreed to stay out of Austria. He knew what he was getting into when he returned there.

[RedskinsDave]

Jesus people, sorry to question the laws of another country. I now have no problem with jailing people for making statements and I also now have no problem with female genitalia mutilation because, as we know, it's legal in some places. :banghead:

[fent]

I believe he is calling Dave Ethnocentric and further saying that it is a GOP trait.

eth·no·cen·trism
n.

The tendency to evaluate other groups according to the values and standards of one's own ethnic group, especially with the conviction that one's own ethnic group is superior to the other groups.

I tend to agree with Dave, but Spence's points are well received.

considering IBB's inability to do anything but repeat "we good, you bad" in his best tarzan-esque grunt, i should expect nothing less.

[Spence]

Jesus people, sorry to question the laws of another country. I now have no problem with jailing people for making statements and I also now have no problem with female genitalia mutilation because, as we know, it's legal in some places. :banghead:Dave, you entirely missed the point I was making. How can anyone in their right mind seriously equate jailing a neo-Nazi with intentionally mutilating a young woman? It's an absurd comparison. As I noted:

Bride burning = cultural difference that is evil
Jailing neo-Nazis = cultural difference that is not evil

I'm an American. I wouldn't want someone jailed for neo-Nazism. But that's coming from an American experience. The Austrian and German experience with Nazism is different than ours and much, much worse. Societies deal with problems in their own ways. I don't see the Austrian law as awful. I wouldn't have that law myself, but I don't see any Austrians protesting against it either, so it must be fairly popular in the country.

[CNYSkinFan]

I have to say I find myself oddly on Dave's side here. While we can argue that Germany and Austria have different perspectives when it comes to Naziism and the holocaust to pass a law against free speach is violating what Thomas Jefferson called inalienable human rights belonging to all mankind, not just Americans.

China could very well make the same claim about it's jailing of those speaking in favor of taiwanese indepence. They could simply say that they have the right to do this because of their history with Taiwan.

I do believe what he said was reprehensible and I am dumbfounded that there are people who believe it. But to jail him over it is only creating a martyr with more power.

[Agrawog]

Dave, you entirely missed the point I was making. How can anyone in their right mind seriously equate jailing a neo-Nazi with intentionally mutilating a young woman? It's an absurd comparison. As I noted:

Bride burning = cultural difference that is evil
Jailing neo-Nazis = cultural difference that is not evil

I'm an American. I wouldn't want someone jailed for neo-Nazism. But that's coming from an American experience. The Austrian and German experience with Nazism is different than ours and much, much worse. Societies deal with problems in their own ways. I don't see the Austrian law as awful. I wouldn't have that law myself, but I don't see any Austrians protesting against it either, so it must be fairly popular in the country.

I wouldn't equate the two experiences either but it is clearly a law that would not pass the constitutional test in this country and since we helped set up the modern constitutions in both Germany and Austria I am surprised they don't have some version of the 1st amendment that would preclude that law from taking effect.

Wow.

[swheeler]

I wouldn't equate the two experiences either but it is clearly a law that would not pass the constitutional test in this country and since we helped set up the modern constitutions in both Germany and Austria I am surprised they don't have some version of the 1st amendment that would preclude that law from taking effect.

Wow.
When we were involved with setting up those countries, we were a lot more worried about a return to Naziism than any free speach issues.