Just Don't Try to Order Pepperoni on Friday....

[akhhorus]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2058771,00.html

'Pizza pope' builds a Catholic heaven
Tony Allen-Mills, New York
A FORMER marine who was raised by nuns and made a fortune selling pizza has embarked on a £230m plan to build the first town in America to be run according to strict Catholic principles.

Abortions, pornography and contraceptives will be banned in the new Florida town of Ave Maria, which has begun to take shape on former vegetable farms 90 miles northwest of Miami.

Tom Monaghan, the founder of the Domino’s Pizza chain, has stirred protests from civil rights activists by declaring that Ave Maria’s pharmacies will not be allowed to sell condoms or birth control pills. The town’s cable television network will carry no X-rated channels.

[VTBob]

eh I don't really care much what he does with his money, he can have his Catholictopia in FLA as long as he isn't screwing with me personally - if people wanna move there, they know what kind of rules they'll be living by...

[smoak]

OMG! My sister-in-law goes to Ave Maria University in Florida and I've heard really mixed things (she loves it). Some of the stories make it seem a little out there. Interesting...

I wonder if Ave Maria, Florida will have a Papa Johns? Maybe John Schnatter should build a "sin city" right next door to Ave Maria, Florida.

[Spence]

I have a feeling this town won't be abiding by strict Catholic rules about caring for the poor.

[RedskinsDave]

Shocking that a liberal "catholic" group and the ACLU have a problem with this.

[Spence]

Shocking that a liberal "catholic" group and the ACLU have a problem with this.Come on, Dave, you know you wouldn't want to live in a town without porn!

[dj_stouty]

Howard Stern was talking about this subject this morning...

Overall; this doesn't bother me, just like communes or co-ops don't bother me. But they are very WIERD...and usually attract very wierd people. Lets hope this doesn't turn into a cult situation like David Korresh. (sp)

It is a bit scary that you can literally create your own city with your own rules and such; simply because you own the land. (and MASSIVE land, at that) Will this man create the "rules" for the city beyond disallowing certain contraband such as condoms and porn?

[akhhorus]

Howard Stern was talking about this subject this morning...

Overall; this doesn't bother me, just like communes or co-ops don't bother me. But they are very WIERD...and usually attract very wierd people. Lets hope this doesn't turn into a cult situation like David Korresh. (sp)

It is a bit scary that you can literally create your own city with your own rules and such; simply because you own the land. (and MASSIVE land, at that) Will this man create the "rules" for the city beyond disallowing certain contraband such as condoms and porn?

Well, you can't just declare your own rules if they violate state/federal law. You can have your own laws if they don't violate those. This town's charter and laws will probably end up in court at some point.

[Spence]

Previous court rulings, DJ, have held that ownership of a town doesn't give someone the right to impose any rules he/she/it likes. The U.S. Constitution still applies in any territory governed by the United States of America and the rules Mr Monaghan wants to create would appear to clearly violate the U.S. Constitution in certain areas.

[dj_stouty]

Well, you can't just declare your own rules if they violate state/federal law. You can have your own laws if they don't violate those. This town's charter and laws will probably end up in court at some point.

How does local zoning come into play? Can you simply buy a piece of land and start selling residential homes? I would imagine the county would have a say in that...

[RedskinsDave]

Come on, Dave, you know you wouldn't want to live in a town without porn!

I'd never live there but I won't fault people who would. Monoghan is almost hoping for a lawsuit.

[smoak]

At the University it seems that the really encourage the priest/nun route, but maybe I am hearing things out of context as a third party. I'd almost think a religion would want to try and turn you away from a position of leadership until/unless you have proven you are truly dedicated.

[RedskinsDave]

Previous court rulings, DJ, have held that ownership of a town doesn't give someone the right to impose any rules he/she/it likes. The U.S. Constitution still applies in any territory governed by the United States of America and the rules Mr Monaghan wants to create would appear to clearly violate the U.S. Constitution in certain areas.

He can't stop people from not playing by his rules but he's looking for like-minded residents and proprietors. If someone really wants to go in there and try and bust up these folks perceived utopia then they need to seek help. Of course, they would be major hypocrites too since they would be enforcing their morals on folks who don't want them.

[akhhorus]

He can't stop people from not playing by his rules but he's looking for like-minded residents and proprietors. If someone really wants to go in there and try and bust up these folks perceived utopia then they need to seek help. Of course, they would be major hypocrites too since they would be enforcing their morals on folks who don't want them.

But by this logic, the North shouldn't have invaded the South in the War of Northern Aggression to eliminate Slavery/restored the Union. There has to be common laws that apply everywhere or this isn't a country, just a collection of provinces that just defend each other.

[RedskinsDave]

But by this logic, the North shouldn't have invaded the South in the War of Northern Aggression to eliminate Slavery/restored the Union. There has to be common laws that apply everywhere or this isn't a country, just a collection of provinces that just defend each other.

They aren't making any laws contrary to the Constitution. Not selling condoms and birth control isn't anywhere near owning people.

[akhhorus]

They aren't making any laws contrary to the Constitution. Not selling condoms and birth control isn't anywhere near owning people.

We don't know yet what their laws will be. Yes, not selling birth control isn't a violation of the Consitution, but it could violate state law. It all depends on what they specifically ban. I compare this to the Morman communities in Utah. Do they have the right to allow Polygamy in contradiction of US/State law?

[RedskinsDave]

We don't know yet what their laws will be. Yes, not selling birth control isn't a violation of the Consitution, but it could violate state law. It all depends on what they specifically ban. I compare this to the Morman communities in Utah. Do they have the right to allow Polygamy in contradiction of US/State law?

No, they don't and they are prosecuted when they are found to violate the laws. Last I checked though there isn't anything in the Catholic faith that so grossly contradicts law like the Mormons old rules did.

[Spence]

Laws forbidding the sale of contraceptives would seem to pretty obviously violate the Supreme Court's ruling in Griswold. It's all highly speculative right now since we have no idea what sort of laws would actually be promulgated. Once Mr Monaghan's lawyers get through with this, the town charter and laws might be rather less ambitious than this report. Lawyers have a way of delivering bad news to people with more ambition than good sense. That's one reason people hate them.

[dj_stouty]

Laws forbidding the sale of contraceptives would seem to pretty obviously violate the Supreme Court's ruling in Griswold.


I heard that they would take bids from several pharmacies. They would rate the pharmacies that would agree to not sell contraceptives HIGHER than those who wouldn't. Obviously, only those who don't plan on selling them would actually get a "spot" in this town. I think that is the way around this, since the US Government can't force a store to sell a product or not.

Same would apply to grocery stores and any other store that would sell things like contraceptives or porn...etc.

[Spence]

I heard that they would take bids from several pharmacies. They would rate the pharmacies that would agree to not sell contraceptives HIGHER than those who wouldn't. Obviously, only those who don't plan on selling them would actually get a "spot" in this town. I think that is the way around this, since the US Government can't force a store to sell a product or not.

Same would apply to grocery stores and any other store that would sell things like contraceptives or porn...etc.It's not that easy to get around the U.S. Constitution. Every store barred for unconstitutional reasons would sue in court and allege illegal bid rigging and conspiracy. And since Mr Monaghan appears to be virtually daring -- or even encouraging -- lawsuits, I think there'd be plenty of bids from people waiting for him to do as he's promised so they can take him to court.

[smoak]

I heard that they would take bids from several pharmacies. They would rate the pharmacies that would agree to not sell contraceptives HIGHER than those who wouldn't. Obviously, only those who don't plan on selling them would actually get a "spot" in this town. I think that is the way around this, since the US Government can't force a store to sell a product or not.

Same would apply to grocery stores and any other store that would sell things like contraceptives or porn...etc.

Wait, your grocery store sells porn!!? There are just too many jokes there and I don't want to get banned. :D

[dj_stouty]

It's not that easy to get around the U.S. Constitution. Every store barred for unconstitutional reasons would sue in court and allege illegal bid rigging and conspiracy. And since Mr Monaghan appears to be virtually daring -- or even encouraging -- lawsuits, I think there'd be plenty of bids from people waiting for him to do as he's promised so they can take him to court.

Can't a land owner who is deciding who will be a future tenant demand certain things from them? I would think it is no different than me renting out a house to non-smokers ONLY, right?

[dj_stouty]

Wait, your grocery store sells porn!!? There are just too many jokes there and I don't want to get banned. :D

LOL...yeah...I guess my Wegmans isn't actually selling porn.

[akhhorus]

Can't a land owner who is deciding who will be a future tenant demand certain things from them? I would think it is no different than me renting out a house to non-smokers ONLY, right?

i believe there are limits to what you can demand. Such as non-smoking, pets, etc.

[Spence]

Can't a land owner who is deciding who will be a future tenant demand certain things from them? I would think it is no different than me renting out a house to non-smokers ONLY, right?There are some legitimate demands. That power is limited. For example, clauses forbidding sale or rental to people of a certain race or religion or political orientation have been found unconstitutional.

[Keino]

But by this logic, the North shouldn't have invaded the South in the War of Northern Aggression to eliminate Slavery/restored the Union. There has to be common laws that apply everywhere or this isn't a country, just a collection of provinces that just defend each other.


Don't you mean War of Southern Secession?

[Keino]

No, they don't and they are prosecuted when they are found to violate the laws. Last I checked though there isn't anything in the Catholic faith that so grossly contradicts law like the Mormons old rules did.

Wait...they changed their rules?

[RedskinsDave]

It's not that easy to get around the U.S. Constitution. Every store barred for unconstitutional reasons would sue in court and allege illegal bid rigging and conspiracy. And since Mr Monaghan appears to be virtually daring -- or even encouraging -- lawsuits, I think there'd be plenty of bids from people waiting for him to do as he's promised so they can take him to court.

I can't see how a store who wins a bid for saying they will not sell condoms, etc. isn't violation any law. Any store that would sue for their right to sell condoms to people who do not want them offered needs to get a life.

[RedskinsDave]

Wait...they changed their rules?

I am pretty sure the official church stance is against polygamy now.

[dj_stouty]

There are some legitimate demands. That power is limited. For example, clauses forbidding sale or rental to people of a certain race or religion or political orientation have been found unconstitutional.

What about age? I see those housing communities for "Seniors" popping up all over Fairfax County. They basically only sell townhomes/condos to AARP-aged seniors who want to live a quieter lifestyle with like-folks.

[smoak]

I am pretty sure the official church stance is against polygamy now.

I asked an LDS co-worker once and he glazed over it and something about the church admitting they were wrong? I didn't get details though...

[Agrawog]

Will there be a town filter for the Internet?

Will they scan the incoming mail, FEDEX, and UPS for packages wrapped in plain brown paper?

Can you install a satellite dish?

If so, I tell you what, I have a great idea for a store - the Sin store located just one Foot outside town limits. Here is what we sell:

Porn - in all types (we have booths!)
Medical Clinic - in the back

All items sold with special "Ave Maria Friendly" packaging for you discrimminating buyers.

Discrete, three turn driveway from highway to prevent anyone from knowing where you are shopping.

Three star motel (Rooms to rent by the hour!)

=================

You notice he didn't mention alcohol or cigarettes. Those you can get by the pound!

[Spence]

I can't see how a store who wins a bid for saying they will not sell condoms, etc. isn't violation any law. Any store that would sue for their right to sell condoms to people who do not want them offered needs to get a life.I don't know how this town is going to be incorporated, but I'm not sure how they would stop Joe Blow from opening a pharmacy and then selling contraception. He opens up and starts selling. They order him to stop, pointing to town law. He sues, citing Griswold [and possibly Florida laws permitting the sale of contracption]. Town loses. That's how I think it goes.

[Spence]

I asked an LDS co-worker once and he glazed over it and something about the church admitting they were wrong? I didn't get details though...The official LDS position has been against polygamy since the late 19th century. Part of the deal the LDS made to get Utah into the Union was to condemn polygamy. Utah became a state in 1896, I believe.

[RedskinsDave]

You notice he didn't mention alcohol or cigarettes. Those you can get by the pound!

I didn't hear when those things became morally objectionable. They're Catholics, not fundamentalists.

Again though Tom, someone would have to be a real jerk to go into this town and try to sell something only to make some point.

[akhhorus]

I didn't hear when those things became morally objectionable. They're Catholics, not fundamentalists.

Again though Tom, someone would have to be a real jerk to go into this town and try to sell something only to make some point.

America was founded on Jerks trying to provoke local authories just trying to make a point!

[smoak]

The official LDS position has been against polygamy since the late 19th century. Part of the deal the LDS made to get Utah into the Union was to condemn polygamy. Utah became a state in 1896, I believe.

Interesting. I loved hearing about the history of the LDS Church, but I really didn't know that. It was more about the "translation" of the book of Morman and the trials of Joseph Smith that led to the western migration. I didn't think polygamy was legal, but I didn't know it was necessarily "condemned".

Good stuff.

[dj_stouty]

I don't know how this town is going to be incorporated, but I'm not sure how they would stop Joe Blow from opening a pharmacy and then selling contraception. He opens up and starts selling. They order him to stop, pointing to town law. He sues, citing Griswold [and possibly Florida laws permitting the sale of contracption]. Town loses. That's how I think it goes.

Actually...the Dominos owner owns the 500-acre plot of land that this "community" would live on. No store could simply plop down on his land and open up shop.

[smoak]

I wonder if they'd pass laws banning HR thongs???

:D

[akhhorus]

Actually...the Dominos owner owns the 500-acre plot of land that this "community" would live on. No store could simply plop down on his land and open up shop.

It might be difficult for him to not sell to people who want to buy the land to develop it. This might be where the lawsuits start.

[dj_stouty]

It might be difficult for him to not sell to people who want to buy the land to develop it. This might be where the lawsuits start.

As far as I know...this is his private land; and can develop it as he sees fit; right? If he wants to build 200 homes on 500 acres with a grocery store (no contraception), video store (Blockbuster doesn't have porn), liquor store, church, dry cleaning and heath facility; I imagine he can.

I think the biggest pitfall will be zoning laws; not facing those who want to be vendors.

[Keino]

I am pretty sure the official church stance is against polygamy now.

Then I shouldn't bother watching that new HBO series? Damn!

[akhhorus]

As far as I know...this is his private land; and can develop it as he sees fit; right? If he wants to build 200 homes on 500 acres with a grocery store (no contraception), video store (Blockbuster doesn't have porn), liquor store, church, dry cleaning and heath facility; I imagine he can.

I think the biggest pitfall will be zoning laws; not facing those who want to be vendors.

This is true, but someone could claim discrimination. It would like be not selling your house to certain people because of certain criteria. Thats illegal.

[Fathead]

Boy, it's amazing how many misconceptions there are about mormons.



1st, there are no "mormon" cities practicing polygamy. If the church finds out that a member practices polygamy, you are excommunicated. Immediately. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. These areas that it happens in are breakoff groups. They are in no way affliated with the church.

2nd, polygamy has been banned by the church since the 1890s. Since obeying the law of the land is a commandment held by the church, polygamy wasn't going to work. So they stopped the practice.

[CNYSkinFan]

I have a feeling this town won't be abiding by strict Catholic rules about caring for the poor.

Nor Capitol punishment. i doubt convicted murderers will be spared from the Florida electric chair. I know that murder will be prosecuted by a county DA and death sentences are a state crime, but I would think if an entire town government asked for Clemency it would be honored...at the least they would be required to ask.

[Keino]

Boy, it's amazing how many misconceptions there are about mormons.



1st, there are no "mormon" cities practicing polygamy. If the church finds out that a member practices polygamy, you are excommunicated. Immediately. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. These areas that it happens in are breakoff groups. They are in no way affliated with the church.

2nd, polygamy has been banned by the church since the 1890s. Since obeying the law of the land is a commandment held by the church, polygamy wasn't going to work. So they stopped the practice.

Im not sure anyone was really serious with the Tounge in Cheek remarks. I have my own objections to Mormonism, unrelated to polygamy that I won't go into on this particular thread as it would be very O/T.

[Fathead]

Im not sure anyone was really serious with the Tounge in Cheek remarks. I have my own objections to Mormonism, unrelated to polygamy that I won't go into on this particular thread as it would be very O/T.



And that's fine, you can think/believe whatever you want. I just wish people would bother to know about a group of people before they start claiming things about them.


As for this "community", until they break the law, I see nothing wrong with what they are doing. I do believe they have the right to peaceably assemble.