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Skinzaholic
08-07-2003, 11:54 AM
I have posted many things stating my disagreement with liberals and their "non-American" point of view It is my belief that they are systematically tearing apart the fabric of our nation by changing the intent of statements and rulings throughout history to support their particular agendas. I do not believe this is due to some deviant desire to ruin our freedom... but instead just plain ignorance. Most of the people who vote Democrat have no idea what the individuals really stand for... and simply vote out of ignorance and the empty promises of more government programs.

The recent court ruling that saying "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance threatens our American form of government came as a shock to millions of Americans. Even the cynical "nothing-can-surprise-us" national media raised its collective eyebrow at the decision.

Given the popularity of the Pledge, the reaction to that ruling was not surprising. For example, Members from both the House (mostly the Republicans) and Senate walked outside their chambers, faced the Supreme Court, and recited the Pledge - with a particularly loud emphasis on the "offensive" phrase.

This decision was described by White House and congressional leaders with adjectives such as "outrageous," "ridiculous," "stupid," "asinine," "twisted," etc.

However, it was not, as many might believe, far and away the single worst decision rendered by courts in recent years; it was just the one we all heard about. This decision, for example, was no less egregious than when the federal judge in Texas warned students that if they used the word "Jesus" in a prayer, a federal marshal would arrest them and give them six months in jail. Nor was this decision less despicable than when a federal judge in Alabama ordered undercover monitors into the classrooms to report to him if students engaged in illegal and forbidden religious conduct - such as praying over their lunches at school. No, these unpublicized decisions were just as unsavory as the recent one by the 9th Circuit.

Nonetheless, millions of Americans, now made aware of this absurd decision, are properly asking whether it will be overturned. Yet the more important question is how this decision came to be made in the first place.


The nation received its first public glimpse into what lay behind this decision during the second presidential debate in St. Louis in 2000. Al Gore promised that if he were elected President, he would continue the practice of his predecessor and place judges on the courts who believed that the Constitution was a living document. George Bush, on the other hand, pledged that his judicial nominees would be strict constructionists.

A strict constructionist interprets the Constitution as it is written, not as he or she wished it had been written. Thus, the Constitution's guarantee of the "free exercise of religion" would protect the right to use "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.

A judge who believes in a "living constitution" believes that what the Supreme Court says about an issue is more important than what the Constitution says about the same issue. These judges agree with the philosophy set forth by former Supreme Court Chief Justice Charles Evan Hughes that, "We are under a Constitution, but the Constitution is what the judges say it is."

The decision of the three judges in the Pledge case revealed that only one of the three was a strict constructionist - and unfortunately he was outvoted by the two "living constitution" judges. Significantly, those two did not use the Constitution to strike down the Pledge but instead cited three recent tests erected by the Supreme Court to replace the express language of the Constitution.

The first test was established in 1971 when the Court decided that the language of the religion clauses in the Constitution would be replaced with what it called its "Lemon Test." Under this test, unless a public religious activity had a primarily secular purpose, that religious activity would be unconstitutional. In 1984, the Court established its second test, the "Endorsement Test," declaring that if it appeared that the government was permitting a public religious activity, then the activity would be unconstitutional because someone might think that the government was "endorsing" religion. Then, in 1992, the Court added its third test, the "Psychological Coercion Test." Under this test, if a single individual (such as the atheist in California who objected to the Pledge) is uncomfortable in the presence of a public religious public activity, then the Court will make that activity stop.

The two judges who ruled against the Pledge cited each of these three Tests rather than the Constitution. They struck down the Pledge because it failed the "Lemon Test," the "Endorsement Test," and the "Psychological-Coercion Test."

While most Americans are completely unaware of these two judicial philosophies, those in Washington are not. In fact, it is the Senate's clear understanding of these two philosophies that has caused one of the biggest unreported battles this session.
President Bush, true to his promise, has nominated 103 "strict constructionists" to fill federal judgeships. The Senate leadership, however, has refused to confirm his judges slated for the Court of Appeals. The Senate understands that if "strict constructionists" were placed on the courts, then the judicially-enacted national policies against school and graduation prayers, against the protection of innocent life, against traditional morality, etc. would be threatened. In fact, many of President Bush's judicial nominees have gone more than a year without Senate action while it took President Clinton an average of only 77 days for the Senate to get his "living constitution" judicial nominees confirmed.

Therefore, even though the Senate voted a 99-0 condemnation of the Pledge decision, for many Senators this vote was largely disingenuous since more that half the Senate (nearly all the Democrats) is actively engaged in keeping judges off the courts who would uphold the Pledge.

The problem is that good-moral people are not voting. They have the belief that their vote doesn't count... while the liberal activists come out in swarm to push their agendas down the throat of real America. If good-moral people had voted for good-moral Senators last election, not only would we have a different type of judge moving into the federal judiciary but fifty-three measures now languishing in the Senate would now be law. Those measures include a ban on human cloning, a ban on partial-birth abortions, a ban on "aborting" children after they are born (called the "Infants Born-Alive Protection Act"), a reversal of the discrimination against marriage, protection for faith-based programs, and many other measures. The President wants to sign these bills; the House has already passed them; but the Senate leadership refuses even to hold hearings on them.

President James A. Garfield (an ordained minister of the Gospel) foresaw a century ago where we are today:

Now, more than ever before, the people are responsible for the character of their Congress. If that body be ignorant, reckless, and corrupt, it is because the people tolerate ignorance, recklessness, and corruption. If that body be intelligent, brave, and pure, it is because the people demand these high qualities to represent them in the national legislature. If the next centennial does not find us a great nation, it will be because those who represent the enterprise, the culture, and the morality of the nation do not aid in controlling the political forces.


When the good people spread across this country start to get a revelation that their vote together counts... and can help stem the rising tide of liberalism in our nation, then we will see an end to stupid people making stupid issues out of nothing... and thus killing everything our ancestors fought and died for.

Spence
08-07-2003, 12:05 PM
Rising tide of liberalism? Ha! I wish. The Republicans control all three elected branches of the federal government and in 2000 they proved they don't even have to win the election to win the office. They've taken us to war on false pretenses, turned the biggest budget surpluses in the history of the world into the biggest budget deficits in the history of the world, and destroyed three million jobs in less than three years. This is what you Republicans wanted. This is what you got. At least have the guts to take responsibility for it.

Skinzaholic
08-07-2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Spence
Rising tide of liberalism? Ha! I wish. The Republicans control all three elected branches of the federal government and in 2000 they proved they don't even have to win the election to win the office. They've taken us to war on false pretenses, turned the biggest budget surpluses in the history of the world into the biggest budget deficits in the history of the world, and destroyed three million jobs in less than three years. This is what you Republicans wanted. This is what you got. At least have the guts to take responsibility for it.


You ignored everything I said... and followed the masses like a Lemming by pulling out the same old overused arguments evey other agenda driven Democrat is vomitting on every news channel on TV. (Yet when anyone tries to rebute it they get shouted down).

This reinforces why I feel most Dems are mostly too ignorant or uninformed to have a unique opinion about anything at all.

Spence
08-07-2003, 03:46 PM
Skinz, you keep mentioning the word 'agenda.' What's up with that? Of course I have an agenda. Anyone with ideas has an agenda. Look at the highly partisan stuff you post here. If you don't have an agenda, nobody does. So, what's the deal? Or do you think only people like you are allowed to have an agenda? Yeah, I've got an agenda. Always have, always will. Get used to it.

As a lawyer, I know a thing or two about strict constructionism and those who prefer a less literal reading of the Constitution. Strict constructionism is a minority view among American judges, lawyers, and law professors. Even very conservative judges, like Chief Justice William Rehnquist, dismiss strict constructionism. In a very real sense, the Constitution IS what the Supreme Court decides it is. The Constitution gives the power to interpret the Constitution to the courts, not to legislators or executives, which were perceived as too willing to bend the document to suit their political beliefs.

Since the 1803 decision by Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall in Marbury v. Madison, the Supreme Court has been recognized as having the authority to declare acts of Congress, and by implication acts of the president, unconstitutional if they exceeded the powers granted by the Constitution. More importantly, the Court became the arbiter of the Constitution, the final authority on what the document means. The other two branches of the federal government have obeyed and respected this concept for 200 years.

Most strict constructionists would agree that the Supreme Court was correct when it decided Plessy v. Ferguson, which found racial segregation to be constitutionally permissible. Are you sure you want to sign on with the segregation crowd?

Back to the Pledge of Allegiance case. One of the two judges who ruled the Pledge of Allegiance to be unconstitutional was appointed by a Republican President [Richard Nixon]. The other was appointed by a Democratic President [Jimmy Carter]. How is it that liberals or Democrats bear an unusual blame for that silly decision? The 99-0 vote was not disingenuous at all. It is perfectly consistent to believe in the Constitution as a "living document" and to believe the Pledge of Allegiance is not unconstitutional. That is, I'm quite sure, the opinion of the vast majority of judges, lawyers, and professors in the country. It is certainly mine.

You should be aware that most federal judges have been appointed by Republican Presidents and a great many of the decisons you find objectionable were handed down by Republican appointees. What's more, Democrats are simply blocking Mr Bush's judicial nominees in a manner similar to the way Republicans blocked President Clinton's judicial nominees. When it was happening to a Democratic President, conservatives didn't seem to have a problem with it. Now they do. Too bad.

You've got to be kidding about liberals shouting down conservatives in the media. My side should only be so lucky. The media is controlled by big corporations [like General Electric], which overwhelmingly support Republicans. Liberals don't have hour after hour after hour of blowhard, know-nothing bozos and their armies of dittohead zombies dominating the public airwaves. Which conservative gets shouted down on the Rush Limbaugh Show? The Sean Hannity Show? Every single show on FOX? It doesn't happen. It's a fantasy.

I agree with you that more people need to vote, though. And since the people who tend not to vote [ethnic minorities, the poor] overwhelmingly support Democrats when they do vote, you can see why increasing public participation is so important to a liberal like myself.

Skinzaholic
08-07-2003, 04:05 PM
Spence...

I guess we are just going to see things differently... and that is OK... I see Liberals as easily controlling the media and it's lopsided inhumaine point of view... I see that MOST of the stupid issues brought into our courts nowadays are brought in by Democrats trying to get preferential treatment. I dont see it the way you do.

I dont consider myself a Republican either... because they have been stupid int he past as well. Libertarian probably more suits my beliefs... the government needs to shut up and stay out of our beliefs. Dont think that is gonna happen soon though.


In the end I will say what I have said hundreds of times... I totally respect your position because you (unlike so many other Democrats) possess the ability to articulate it in an intelligent manner. That speaks volumes to me... even if I see your views as short-sighted and force-fed.


If I ever run into legal problems... I will call you in a second to represent me. (There you go... got me saying something nice now...:mad: )

Skinzaholic
08-07-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Spence
I agree with you that more people need to vote, though. And since the people who tend not to vote [ethnic minorities, the poor] overwhelmingly support Democrats when they do vote, you can see why increasing public participation is so important to a liberal like myself.


Another great comment... and I guess this IS my agenda. I spend my time telling 1000 people a week to get out and vote. Maybe it will change some things soon.

Spence
08-07-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by Skinzaholic
Spence...If I ever run into legal problems... I will call you in a second to represent me. (There you go... got me saying something nice now...:mad: )
I'd give you a special rate, Skinz. And just for the record, I say nice things about you all the time. Not always to your face, though. Don't want you to get a big head. :D

Skinzaholic
08-07-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Spence
I'd give you a special rate, Skinz. And just for the record, I say nice things about you all the time. Not always to your face, though. Don't want you to get a big head. :D


:lol1:

jsarno
08-08-2003, 12:22 PM
why is it we're always separating people. I've been against "parties" since high school. I call my self and "Independant" because I am independant from all parties (even though on the scale I lean towards republican). We should drop all names that constrict us.. DEMOCRAT / REPUBLICAN, UPPER CLASS / LOWER CLASS, HOMOSEXUAL / HETEROSEXUAL etc. Why don't we just argue the views without party brainwashing? What's even the point of parties but to separate America?
Skinz, I agree with most everything you have to say...I find myself agreeing with you every day which is making me a bit scared! ;)
I do want to hear why you want everyone to vote so badly. I have only voted in ONE presidential election, and of course, being independant, I was not allowed to vote in the primaries which I feel is against my right to vote. I do vote for small city votes such as VOTE YES ON NUMBER 23 etc. At least there my voice is heard. My problem with voting is that too many COMPLETELY ignorant people go in not having a clue what is going on, and they vote. This is why soooo many people put picket signs up. Not for the intellegent, but for the ignorant (which is another example of the dummies in this world I said in a previous thread). The people who actually know better are drowned out by the masses of ignorant.
I REALLY don't think I'll ever vote for a president again due to the electoral college. MY VOTE should be the only one that matters. Not voting so someone esle can vote for me, who may or may not pick who I want.
So please Skinz, please give me your reasoning for wasting my time at a booth when 9 times out of 10 it doesn't matter. (except in small elections like I already stated that most ignorant don't even know are going on).

Keino
08-08-2003, 02:51 PM
Ijust want to mention that the original pledge of allegiance DID NOT contain under God in it. That was inserted in the 1930's.........

jsarno
08-08-2003, 04:01 PM
actually it was 1954.

Here is a link to the history of the pledge http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

I'd like to point out something I never thought of until today. Why are we pledging allegiance to the "REPUBLIC for which it stands"?
I didn't realize you could be a democracy AND a republic at the same time.

Keino
08-08-2003, 05:49 PM
This is a Democratic Republic....closest thing since the Greek Polis to a True Democracy........

Keino
08-08-2003, 05:53 PM
Also, a strict constructionist would take the 1st Ammendment (You know the ammendment that calls for separation of Church and State) literally, unlike the GOP who attempts to ram religion down the collective throats of the American public.

Skinzaholic
08-08-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Keino
Also, a strict constructionist would take the 1st Ammendment (You know the ammendment that calls for separation of Church and State) literally, unlike the GOP who attempts to ram religion down the collective throats of the American public.


Actually that is not correct Keino. A strict contructionist allows the constituion to stand on its own... choosing not to re-interpret it's meaning for evey individual situation. That is the whole argument with original intent. I have already shown gobs of quotes and facts which document original intent (as well as the original meaning of "separation of church and state"... which isnt even IN the constitution).

A strict constructionist reads the Constitution as it was originally intended to mean and judges the laws based on the document... not judging the document on the current wave of opinion in society.

Skinzaholic
08-08-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by jsarno
So please Skinz, please give me your reasoning for wasting my time at a booth when 9 times out of 10 it doesn't matter. (except in small elections like I already stated that most ignorant don't even know are going on).


Jsarno:

That point of view is exactly why we as a nation are currently sifting through the slime that we find ourselves in.

There are 65 MILLION professed Christians in this country... Now aside from the fact that many say it and arent it... Most of the Senators who are currently in the Senate clogging up the legistlation won their races by 100,000 votes (or less). Many good Senators who support Christian values did not get elected because so many people who agree with them took the attitude "it doesn't matter".

Spence said it best... the Democratic party has targeted the poor welfare community... offering government hand-outs with my tax increases... and many other government interferance programs designed to make life more comfortable for the lazy and uneducated. It is this part of our population which hits the polls in masse to defend their welfare checks etc etc etc. (actually that is MY version of what he said!).

IF the throngs of good people who live in the outskirts of America would gather together and vote like they should... the Democrats would not have a chance. Because it is the Farmer in Iowa who pays through the nose, the woman with 10 kids living on welfare in Chicago can continue to do nothing except be a baby factory so that she can get more welfare. He works hard... yet she wins. Democracy?

I know those statements will spur a cacophony of voices screaming for the poor souls down and out on welfare... but that isnt the extent of this discussion... I am simply stating why I think everyone should vote.

jsarno
08-08-2003, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Skinzaholic
IF the throngs of good people who live in the outskirts of America would gather together and vote like they should... the Democrats would not have a chance. Because it is the Farmer in Iowa who pays through the nose, the woman with 10 kids living on welfare in Chicago can continue to do nothing except be a baby factory so that she can get more welfare. He works hard... yet she wins. Democracy?

very good point...and your point above definitely struck a nerve with me.
I do not believe our government was put in place to help those who choose not to help themselves. Even those who can't help themselves. I feel we should do away with food stamps and welfare, and let those people go be responsible and practice abstenance, and work for $5.15 and hour flipping burgers. If they don't like it, they don't eat. I work VERY hard for my money, and I can't stand to see people on welfare, or food stamps. I worked for Schwans food for about a year way back and I used to get people handing me food stamps (now it's an EBT card) for this gormet food and they lived in a better house and drove a better car than I.
Sad part is, I know there will be a few that will suffer. But the marjority will eventually learn lessons.
Meanwhile our seniors who gave their blood sweat and tears to this country are getting next to nothing from social security. A Lot of whom are physically unable to work. It makes me sick.
I know you probably didn't want me to go down this road, but I think you opened a flood gate, and possibly won yourself a voter.