Vision Quest: A Tale of Two Draft Days.... on the Blog!!!

[CNYSkinFan]

I have posted my latest VQ article on the blog. If you are excited by the amount of late round draft picks the Redskins have this year's, you might want to read about the Snyder era history on the 2nd Day of the Draft.

You can read the article by clicking the link below:

Vision Quest: A Tale of Two Draft Days (http://www.hailredskins.com/blog/index.php?p=267)

And you can comment on it if you like in this thread.

[finnspidey]

I dont the last 2 drafts as so bad for the picks that we had... I look at it more as the FA's we got for getting rid of those picks. All in all the second day wasn't that bad, its not the Patriots. Other than them who really has a good second day?

[shally]

I have posted my latest VQ article on the blog. If you are excited by the amount of late round draft picks the Redskins have this year's, you might want to read about the Snyder era history on the 2nd Day of the Draft.

You can read the article by clicking the link below:

Vision Quest: A Tale of Two Draft Days (http://www.hailredskins.com/blog/index.php?p=267)

And you can comment on it if you like in this thread.


add to it these facts...

philly has 14 second day picks on their current roster
dallas has 10
the giants 7
redskins 5 (of which 3 are from last years draft)

what makes it unnerving is that gibbs success rate was not much better the first time around-- and the draft was longer.

we better get it right in free agency

[Skinsfan1311]

A little too much doom & gloom. But that's just me. I often don't see the forest through trees, as I seldom remove my B&G shades to truly look.

I thought it was a good analysis, and my eyes have been opened, concerning our depth. My views are probably typical....I like what was done in FA, and have scratched my head about the hoopla over the resigning of Holdman. I figure Lindsey knows more than me in that dept.

I've been pretty concerned about our LB corp but, after reading your blog, I'm a little moreconcerned about our O-line.

The in-depth analysis, was an eye-opener and a good read. I learned something today..... thanks!

BTW....I got your PM and info was sent.....

[Redskinfan28]

I agree with the essense of your article - we pick good when we pick high (the risk should be low in getting a bad player when you pick in the top 5) but we do not seem to scout very well to find late round gems. I have have two comments:

1. I think Rounds 1-3 happen on the first day and Rounds 4-7 happen on the second day. Therefore, Cooley and Dockery were first day picks.

2. I don't know how Jason Campbell can be considered a "Contributing Player." Although a first round pick, he did not play at all last year and may turn out to be a complete bust. McCune actually contributed more to the team last year.

[redwolf1218]

i have always been bothered by the players taken around the same time as some of our picks, meaning, the players we could have taken instead of guys like Taylor Jacobs, Rod Gardner, Kenard Lang, Ladell Betts, etc. It's funny how some of those same players we did not draft ended up on our team anyway, like Portis, Moss, Archuletta, etc.

[CNYSkinFan]

I agree with the essense of your article - we pick good when we pick high (the risk should be low in getting a bad player when you pick in the top 5) but we do not seem to scout very well to find late round gems. I have have two comments:

1. I think Rounds 1-3 happen on the first day and Rounds 4-7 happen on the second day. Therefore, Cooley and Dockery were first day picks.

2. I don't know how Jason Campbell can be considered a "Contributing Player." Although a first round pick, he did not play at all last year and may turn out to be a complete bust. McCune actually contributed more to the team last year.

Ok I was almost SURE that rounds 1-2 were on the first day and 3-7 on the second day but I am wrong. At least this year I am wrong.

Funny thing is my original assumption when I started writing the article was a drop in draft selections after round 3 but I wanted to break it into the day to day breakdown and begrudgingly moved my 3rd round picks into the 2nd day picks.

This would mean 4 out of 22 picks on the second days have contributed to the team in a meaningful way. Pretty sad huh?

[redwolf1218]

great article, thanks for taking the time to research it.

this tells me we have to either draft better, or trade away those late picks and move up for guys like Cooley.

and you are right, we better do something about the o-line.

[CNYSkinFan]

I have edited the article to reflect the fact that the third round is on the first day of the draft. As I said above it was my original idea anyway and somehow as I was writing the article I talked myself into the idea that the first two rounds were on the first day.

That being said here are the new breakdowns on my "Contributing Selection" criteria.

First Day Picks (1-3) in Snyder Era: 14 picks 11 Contributing players

Second Day Picks (4-7) in Snyder Era: 22 Picks 4 Contributing Players

And of those 4 contributors are guys like D-Mac and Andre Lott. Once again let me stress I do not think that we should have a 100% success rate in the second day. I would be happy with 50% of our second day picks contributing to the team in a reasonable way (Depth or role players). But they don't ever seem to work out.

With 5 picks on the second day and lots of need for depth the Redskins better do better this year.

[redwolf1218]

we have probably had just as many contributing players that were not drafted at all, which tells me there's not much difference between taking a player on the second day, and just inviting a bunch of guys to camp from after the draft. that, in turn, tells me to package those late picks and move up to get someone good.

[shally]

we have probably had just as many contributing players that were not drafted at all, which tells me there's not much difference between taking a player on the second day, and just inviting a bunch of guys to camp from after the draft. that, in turn, tells me to package those late picks and move up to get someone good.

that is exactly how i feel.. fewer picks, more first day picks, lots of post draft free agents...

[redskin_rich]

that is exactly how i feel.. fewer picks, more first day picks, lots of post draft free agents...
The problem is that those last 5 picks we have don't even equal 1 early 5th rounder, on the value chart. We would have to throw in a first day pick from next year or a player, to move up.

[CNYSkinFan]

The problem is that those last 5 picks we have don't even equal 1 early 5th rounder, on the value chart. We would have to throw in a first day pick from next year or a player, to move up.

And the NFL is not Madden...you can't just package a whole bunch of picks and shop em around to get the highest pick you can.

That and we have 5 positions that can use depth in the draft to flush them out. In order of Importance are: Linebacker (specifically outside), Safety, Tight End, Corner, Offensive Line. Perhaps Corner and Safety can be a combo player and perhaps we go with the guys on the O-line we got...but I don't want to trade too much next year for this year.

That means picking smart on the 2nd Day.

[Redblood]

A little too much doom & gloom. But that's just me. I often don't see the forest through trees, as I seldom remove my B&G shades to truly look.


This I agree with. The rest, you notice I threw away.

I consider it One (1) NFL Draft over two days. Not two different drafts.

If we were to start the season today, I'm sure HOF Coach Gibbs already has his team roster set, and his depth chart as well. The draft is slightly overhyped, but we love it! So, bottom line, the Draftees fill in here and there. If you can come up with enough replacement parts to fill in where retirements and FA left for greener pastures, and hope your FA signees fill in ok, then the Draft is icing on the cake, and gravy on the mashed potatoes.

Some folks peel icing off before eating cake, other folks always refuse the gravy because of the fat content.

The Blog could have mentioned the success in FA, the past successes in FA, and Last year's record because of the FA pick-ups and the fewer starting Draft picks. In other words, the Blog was a little too confining for me.

I've taken to not watching the Draft so hard anymore. I'll look at a Mock or three, and compare what we pick up to where they fall on a seven round Mock, and hope our HOF Coach and outstanding Play-off-record-setting-top-ranked Defensive & Offensive Coordinators can "coach-em-up"! No, I've got my B&G glasses firmly on, and in-place. I need them. I can't even read my Large print Bible anymore without my glasses!

[CNYSkinFan]

This I agree with. The rest, you notice I threw away.

I consider it One (1) NFL Draft over two days. Not two different drafts.

If we were to start the season today, I'm sure HOF Coach Gibbs already has his team roster set, and his depth chart as well. The draft is slightly overhyped, but we love it! So, bottom line, the Draftees fill in here and there. If you can come up with enough replacement parts to fill in where retirements and FA left for greener pastures, and hope your FA signees fill in ok, then the Draft is icing on the cake, and gravy on the mashed potatoes.

Some folks peel icing off before eating cake, other folks always refuse the gravy because of the fat content.

The Blog could have mentioned the success in FA, the past successes in FA, and Last year's record because of the FA pick-ups and the fewer starting Draft picks. In other words, the Blog was a little too confining for me.

I've taken to not watching the Draft so hard anymore. I'll look at a Mock or three, and compare what we pick up to where they fall on a seven round Mock, and hope our HOF Coach and outstanding Play-off-record-setting-top-ranked Defensive & Offensive Coordinators can "coach-em-up"! No, I've got my B&G glasses firmly on, and in-place. I need them. I can't even read my Large print Bible anymore without my glasses!

I didn't talk about FA because I was focusing on the draft, since FA is over and the draft is on the way.

We have had successes in Free Agency, espescially FA under Gubbs versus before Gibbs. However Free Agency does not build depth. Not with the Salary cap in place. Free Agency is used mainly to fill holes and upgrade starting positions. A few vet minimum signings happen but most of those players enter free agency looking to start somewhere to earn a big payday or are no good to begin with.

Looking over the last 3 or 4 years I can't see many free agent signings that provided adequate depth when called upon. Ray Brown certainly was one, but not many others.

[joethefan]

dustin great article....I thought the 2004 draft was the better of them all...If we can learn to hold on to our picks then maybey we can truley have a great draft and pick some descent players...

[shally]

The problem is that those last 5 picks we have don't even equal 1 early 5th rounder, on the value chart. We would have to throw in a first day pick from next year or a player, to move up.

not only that, you cannot trade the compensatory picks.. which is why i think that, rightly or wrongly, you are goingto see the skins use 1 or more of next years picks to add picks on the first day or to move up in this years draft

[Redskinfan28]

This would mean 4 out of 22 picks on the second days have contributed to the team in a meaningful way. Pretty sad huh?

you are correct, sir.

[MWballer]

Gr8 article but I think you're being to criticle of last years draft. For one it's to early to try and evaluate it. Late day picks aren't supposed to do anything their first year I think we need to wait till atleast after preseason to fully evaluate that second day.

Can't evaluate White never got a chance and no one knows Gibbs exact plan for White.
Nemo looked good in spot duty during the preseason.
McCunne who knows maybe he'll be a special teams nut!

[SeanTaylor36]

Good read CNY... I agree with you in all aspects of your draft analysis. I think with all of the late picks in this years draft maybe the skins should try a new strategy, take the best player available. Regardless if this best player is a runningback (most wouold consider this a stupid move because of Portis)... maybe, just maybe this would allow our team to showcase some talent in pre-season games, giving us added value for in trade situations in the next 2 maybe 3 years. As many of you know, this draft is deep at lots of positions... so what the heck lets go for it Skins.

[CNYSkinFan]

dustin great article....I thought the 2004 draft was the better of them all...If we can learn to hold on to our picks then maybey we can truley have a great draft and pick some descent players...
2004 was a great draft....on the first day. Cooley and Taylor are great. But Wilson was cut after one year and Molinaro probably will be this year. And that is my point we aren't getting players who can provide good depth.

[CNYSkinFan]

Gr8 article but I think you're being to criticle of last years draft. For one it's to early to try and evaluate it. Late day picks aren't supposed to do anything their first year I think we need to wait till atleast after preseason to fully evaluate that second day.

Can't evaluate White never got a chance and no one knows Gibbs exact plan for White.
Nemo looked good in spot duty during the preseason.
McCunne who knows maybe he'll be a special teams nut!
I am not sold on the 2005 second day picks at all. And I wasn't when we made the picks either.

We drafted a guy in Manny White to be our backup h-back who didn't beat out Mike Sellars and may have been cut if he did not get injured.

We drafted two lbers in Robert McCune and Jared Newberry who were supposed to beat out Chris Clemons and Khary Campbell. They didn't and neither made the opening day roster thought McCune went to the practice squad and made the roster late in the year after injuries.

We drafted Nemo and he could not beat out Rock for the thirdstring RB position. We kept 4 rbs which was a mistake when we were light at WR and CB.

So either we are seriously misjudging our draft picks or seriously underestimating our existing talent on the roster.

It is probably a little of both. Either way it is resulting in wasted picks.

[CNYSkinFan]

Good read CNY... I agree with you in all aspects of your draft analysis. I think with all of the late picks in this years draft maybe the skins should try a new strategy, take the best player available. Regardless if this best player is a runningback (most wouold consider this a stupid move because of Portis)... maybe, just maybe this would allow our team to showcase some talent in pre-season games, giving us added value for in trade situations in the next 2 maybe 3 years. As many of you know, this draft is deep at lots of positions... so what the heck lets go for it Skins.
I think the Skins will do something like that. The 2nd round pick will be either an OLB or Corner/Safety Hybrid player. Whichever position is picked in the 2nd we will pick the other position in the 5th. Our 6ths and 7ths will be used to get the best players available at o-line, safety, & TE (and possibly trade up within the 2nd and 5th rounds).

I don't think we even look at the following positions QB, RB, WR, D-line

[shally]

you are correct, sir.

not only that

we now have on the roster 10 players who were signed as college free agents post draft (as opposed to second day draft picks)

boschetti
sellers
alston
c clemons
n clemons
d patterson
a jimoh
j combs
woodard
s harris

some of them are obviously camp fodder. but others have contributed quite a bit to the team. it would seem that we do better at that type of selection than onthe second day of the draft

[shally]

I think the Skins will do something like that. The 2nd round pick will be either an OLB or Corner/Safety Hybrid player. Whichever position is picked in the 2nd we will pick the other position in the 5th. Our 6ths and 7ths will be used to get the best players available at o-line, safety, & TE (and possibly trade up within the 2nd and 5th rounds).

I don't think we even look at the following positions QB, RB, WR, D-line


i think we should look at a 2 gap, nose tackle type of def tackle in the second day.. someone like monds, but with a heart and motor.. if we lose griffin our middle tends to get soft..

[Meatsnack]

It is certainly treu that the 'Skins have had no track record of success on the 2nd day of the draft since Casserly left. Charlie would routinely blow first day picks, though, so I'll take the swap.

Our drafts under Marty and The Ole' Ball Coach were attrocious from top to bottom. Marty has no ability to evaluate players and Steve had no interest.

What Gibbs brings is an integrated approach with everyone on the coaching staff and the scouts/FO giving player evaluation their whole attention. I was stung watching day two last year. There were major college players who had dropped or skilled specialists available when we picked the players we did. That said, it is too soon to call the grade on day two. You really have to wait three seasons to do that. If Nemo is our change of pace/goalline back in '06 or '07, you have to consider that pick a success. Same with White, if he is ever a contributing FB or TE by '07.

My 2006 day-two/UDFA pool looks like:
Brandon Marshall - WR - Central Florida
Dwayne Slay - SS - Georgia Tech
Victo Adeyanju - DE - Indiana
Brandon Johnson - OLB/DE - Louisville
Jason Hatcher - DE - Grambling State
Eric Bassey - CB/FS - Oklahoma (UDFA/7th)
Will Allen - OG - Texas
Manase Hopoi - DT - Washington
Marques Colston -WR - Hofstra
Terna Nande - LB - Miami of Ohio
Kwakou Robinson (7th) - DT - Virginia
Matt Lentz - OG - Michigan
Jami Hightower - OT/OG - Texas A&M
Chris Gocong - DE - Cal Poly
Anthony Mix - WR/TE - Auburn - this guy was JCs fav. WR at Auburn
Barry Cofield - DT - Nebraska
Albert Toeaina - OT - Tennessee
Chris Kuper - OG - North Dakota (can long snap, convert to Center)
Gerrick McPhearson - CB - Maryland

[shally]

It is certainly treu that the 'Skins have had no track record of success on the 2nd day of the draft since Casserly left. Charlie would routinely blow first day picks, though, so I'll take the swap.

Our drafts under Marty and The Ole' Ball Coach were attrocious from top to bottom. Marty has no ability to evaluate players and Steve had no interest.

What Gibbs brings is an integrated approach with everyone on the coaching staff and the scouts/FO giving player evaluation their whole attention. I was stung watching day two last year. There were major college players who had dropped or skilled specialists available when we picked the players we did. That said, it is too soon to call the grade on day two. You really have to wait three seasons to do that. If Nemo is our change of pace/goalline back in '06 or '07, you have to consider that pick a success. Same with White, if he is ever a contributing FB or TE by '07.

My 2006 day-two/UDFA pool looks like:
Brandon Marshall - WR - Central Florida
Dwayne Slay - SS - Georgia Tech
Victo Adeyanju - DE - Indiana
Brandon Johnson - OLB/DE - Louisville
Jason Hatcher - DE - Grambling State
Eric Bassey - CB/FS - Oklahoma (UDFA/7th)
Will Allen - OG - Texas
Manase Hopoi - DT - Washington
Marques Colston -WR - Hofstra
Terna Nande - LB - Miami of Ohio
Kwakou Robinson (7th) - DT - Virginia
Matt Lentz - OG - Michigan
Jami Hightower - OT/OG - Texas A&M
Chris Gocong - DE - Cal Poly
Anthony Mix - WR/TE - Auburn - this guy was JCs fav. WR at Auburn
Barry Cofield - DT - Nebraska
Albert Toeaina - OT - Tennessee
Chris Kuper - OG - North Dakota (can long snap, convert to Center)
Gerrick McPhearson - CB - Maryland

i would add thomas, the tight end from texas.. too small.. too slow.. all he does is catch 3rd down passes over and over. he reminds me of frank wycheck and i think he will be a productive pro.. too small for a true tight end but should be a solid H back.. take some of the sting away if manny white turns out to be a bust..

[redwolf1218]

not only that

we now have on the roster 10 players who were signed as college free agents post draft (as opposed to second day draft picks)

boschetti
sellers
alston
c clemons
n clemons
d patterson
a jimoh
j combs
woodard
s harris

some of them are obviously camp fodder. but others have contributed quite a bit to the team. it would seem that we do better at that type of selection than onthe second day of the draft
according to CNY's 4/22 ratio, this list means we have the same # of guys contributing from after the draft as we do who were drafted on day 2. i cant remember if Dimitri Patterson played any or not.

[CNYSkinFan]

according to CNY's 4/22 ratio, this list means we have the same # of guys contributing from after the draft as we do who were drafted on day 2. i cant remember if Dimitri Patterson played any or not.
I don't know if Boschetti would make the cut...but maybe. He did play some, but so did Nic Clemons.

the real question is shouldn't we be doing better with 2nd day draft picks then ufas?

[redwolf1218]

I don't know if Boschetti would make the cut...but maybe. He did play some, but so did Nic Clemons.

the real question is shouldn't we be doing better with 2nd day draft picks then ufas?
probably so. to be certain, i would have to see the ratio across the league, between 2nd day picks and ufa's, but i am pretty sure we'd be behind that curve.

[CNYSkinFan]

probably so. to be certain, i would have to see the ratio across the league, between 2nd day picks and ufa's, but i am pretty sure we'd be behind that curve.
That my friend would take way more work then I could possibly hope to accomplish and not get totally fired from my job.

[redwolf1218]

That my friend would take way more work then I could possibly hope to accomplish and not get totally fired from my job.
i understand, you already did enough with the research you put into your article. that 4/22 number is disturbing to say the least. one other variable to add into the equation is some of the picks that were turned into players who were restricted free agents. 2 were used to get Lloyd, some others were used to get Bowen, Thrash, and some other guys.

however i still get your point. 4 out of 22 is pretty lousy.

[HanburgerBum]

Excellent analysis, CNY. I tend to be an optimist and I feel that three things this year will work in the Skins favor.

1) The law of averages. Washington can't be this dismal in second day picks forever. What do they say about a blind man finding an acorn?

2) Safety in numbers. I believe this is the largest (number wise) contingent of second day picks for the Skins maybe ever. That increases the odds of finding a couple of contributors.

3) Deep draft. 2006 is supposedly one of the deepest drafts ever at several positions. So, maybe the talent will spill over into day two.

If all those fail, I will still have my rabbit's foot.

[shally]

I don't know if Boschetti would make the cut...but maybe. He did play some, but so did Nic Clemons.

the real question is shouldn't we be doing better with 2nd day draft picks then ufas?


yes we should... but i do not know that we have for some time now..that is the reality of the situation

incidentally, patterson did play and got an interception inthe dallas game..

and alston is projected to be reserve at tackle-- maybe even over molinaro

[redwolf1218]

yes we should... but i do not know that we have for some time now..that is the reality of the situation

incidentally, patterson did play and got an interception inthe dallas game..

and alston is projected to be reserve at tackle-- maybe even over molinaro
then that would mean we actually have 6 ufa's contributing, opposed to only (4) 2nd day draft picks contributing. however, we have brought in a lot more ufa's after each draft, so the ratio of 4/22 draft picks would have to be compared to a ratio of 6/(?-insert huge number) ufa's.

[shally]

then that would mean we actually have 6 ufa's contributing, opposed to only (4) 2nd day draft picks contributing. however, we have brought in a lot more ufa's after each draft, so the ratio of 4/22 draft picks would have to be compared to a ratio of 6/(?-insert huge number) ufa's.


totally agree that you need to cast a wide net on ufa's... but since few get much in the way of bonuses there is little downside.. you just have to convince them they have a chance..
plus, there is a total limit on signed players (80?? or something of that order) so you have tobe selective to some degree

[SeanTaylor36]

I think the Skins will do something like that. The 2nd round pick will be either an OLB or Corner/Safety Hybrid player. Whichever position is picked in the 2nd we will pick the other position in the 5th. Our 6ths and 7ths will be used to get the best players available at o-line, safety, & TE (and possibly trade up within the 2nd and 5th rounds).

I don't think we even look at the following positions QB, RB, WR, D-line


See now some may say I am completley crazy, but this is where I venture off into a "never never land". What if we did pick up a RB in the 5th or 6th... anybody for Leon Washington, a touted Florida State RB coming into the '05 season but had a par senior year. Maybe he was just in a slump, and if the skins took a gamble on someone like this instead of a no-name linebacker (even though it is a need position) or an O-Line man, I am willing to bet my left kidney that Washington would make the roster before the OLB, if not find himself an integral part of speacial teams this year.

Also take note of Cedric Humes of VT. He was consistent all four years that he was there.

Demetrius Summers RB, I played football with him for 6 years, middle school, highschool.... the kid is an animal. He has put on about 20 pounds working out in Rock Hill, SC this year, and he is faster and quicker than ever. Hes projected 28th because he did not play in the 05 season here at South Carolina (where I am a student) because he tested positive twice for marijuana (which I know for a fact was a mistake on the universities part, but that is a whole 'nother story in itself). Also keep in mind he was ranked higher than reggie bush coming out of high school :) . I would say a 7th round pick is worth spending on this guy after letting him run over me the last 6 years of my life (I am a WR, he didnt understand the concept of running AROUND blocks just quite yet), and another 2 on the sidelines in college.

Now this is of course just an opinion, and I am challenging myself to go against the grain... but I really see this as a different, yet intelligent strategy.
I would also like to reiterate my self here saying that the purpose of drafting the best talent here, regardless of position, should be to showcase these players in preseason games, or against weaker teams in our schedule (the few that there are) and possibly earn trade value out of them if they do well.

Here is a link that shows most every player at every position and theyre projected round. http://www.nflreport.com/Draft_Prospects_RB.htm

[whitskins]

The numbers don't lie, we haven't done well on the second day of the draft, but two things stand out to me.

1) We rarely put late round draft picks in a position to prove their worth. We sign so many free agents to fill our holes that late round picks rarely take the field for us. And when they do we usually look for a more expensive upgrade because we can afford it.

2) I think it's too early to judge Gibbs' success on the second day. Guys like Molinaro, Manuel Wright, McCune, Nemo, etc just haven't been in the league long enough to get their chance. It took Antonio Pierce several years to get a chance to see the field and show what he can do. So a lot of these guys need to just hang on and see if they get their chance, but if they play for the Skins then their odds are probably a lot longer because we are always so active in free agency.

That doesn't really change the lack of success we've had on the second day, but I can deal with it. Our method has brought us success and will bring us even more in the future, so I'm satisfied.

[guinness4health]

good points on the 2nd day of picking.... we have not done a very good job.... but it should be pointed out that our front office has done a fantastic job of finding undrafted gems.... especially during gibbs stay....

sellars in '98, pierce in '01, marshall (was undrafted, signed with tampa but never played), Ryan Boschetti in '04, chris clemons in '03....

and there have been numerous others that have giving us strong contributions before moving on to other squads....

it seems odd that we have had more success with undrafted free agent rookies than our second day draft picks...

either way good write up

[redwolf1218]

good points on the 2nd day of picking.... we have not done a very good job.... but it should be pointed out that our front office has done a fantastic job of finding undrafted gems.... especially during gibbs stay....

sellars in '98, pierce in '01, marshall (was undrafted, signed with tampa but never played), Ryan Boschetti in '04, chris clemons in '03....

and there have been numerous others that have giving us strong contributions before moving on to other squads....

it seems odd that we have had more success with undrafted free agent rookies than our second day draft picks...
either way good write up
that might be partly because of the broader net for ufa's. we might bring in 3 or 4 2nd day picks, but then bring in about 20 undrafted guys.

[CNYSkinFan]

See now some may say I am completley crazy, but this is where I venture off into a "never never land".

On that we agree lol.

Just joking but seriously, I just don't see us drafting ANY running backs. Someone could possibly make a case for QB (competition for Collins) or WR (competition for the 5th WR spot), but not RB. They resigned rock, have Nemo and have ufas in Combs and Lumsford. That is 6 guys (including Betts and Portis) for more then likely 3 spots.

If we pick an RB expect another article from me blasting our 2nd day selections next year as well.

[shally]

The numbers don't lie, we haven't done well on the second day of the draft, but two things stand out to me.

1) We rarely put late round draft picks in a position to prove their worth. We sign so many free agents to fill our holes that late round picks rarely take the field for us. And when they do we usually look for a more expensive upgrade because we can afford it.

2) I think it's too early to judge Gibbs' success on the second day. Guys like Molinaro, Manuel Wright, McCune, Nemo, etc just haven't been in the league long enough to get their chance. It took Antonio Pierce several years to get a chance to see the field and show what he can do. So a lot of these guys need to just hang on and see if they get their chance, but if they play for the Skins then their odds are probably a lot longer because we are always so active in free agency.

That doesn't really change the lack of success we've had on the second day, but I can deal with it. Our method has brought us success and will bring us even more in the future, so I'm satisfied.

a couple of points.. pierce was a free agent..we signed him post draft

and i would humbly disagree about us giving the second day picks a full chance because, seldom do any of them do much better with subsequent teams.. they were just poor picks all the way around..

[CNYSkinFan]

good points on the 2nd day of picking.... we have not done a very good job.... but it should be pointed out that our front office has done a fantastic job of finding undrafted gems.... especially during gibbs stay....

sellars in '98, pierce in '01, marshall (was undrafted, signed with tampa but never played), Ryan Boschetti in '04, chris clemons in '03....

and there have been numerous others that have giving us strong contributions before moving on to other squads....

it seems odd that we have had more success with undrafted free agent rookies than our second day draft picks...

either way good write up
I think we do well with UFAs out of neccesity. Our 2nd day picks have been less over the years because of trades (Portis, the Jet SKins, Campbell, etc etc). And the ones we have picked have not panned out. So we sign a few UFAs and try to coach them into real players. Luckily we have some of the best coach's in the NFL to do that with. Just imagine what they could do with some real talent to work with.

[CNYSkinFan]

The numbers don't lie, we haven't done well on the second day of the draft, but two things stand out to me.

1) We rarely put late round draft picks in a position to prove their worth. We sign so many free agents to fill our holes that late round picks rarely take the field for us. And when they do we usually look for a more expensive upgrade because we can afford it.

2) I think it's too early to judge Gibbs' success on the second day. Guys like Molinaro, Manuel Wright, McCune, Nemo, etc just haven't been in the league long enough to get their chance. It took Antonio Pierce several years to get a chance to see the field and show what he can do. So a lot of these guys need to just hang on and see if they get their chance, but if they play for the Skins then their odds are probably a lot longer because we are always so active in free agency.

That doesn't really change the lack of success we've had on the second day, but I can deal with it. Our method has brought us success and will bring us even more in the future, so I'm satisfied.
I hope your right whitskins but I am not banking on it. Maybe one of these guys we opicked the last two years will pan out. But even if one does, there are a whole bunch that won't.

I love Gibbs but I am not giving him a pass on this. His 2nd day selections have been just as bad as Spurrier, Marty, and Norv...if not worse. Out of 6 selections only 2 were on the roster last year (Molinaro and Nemo) and neither saw significant game time despite injuries at the position they cover. 2 are already gone (Wilson and Newberry) and the other 2 are having problems learning the system (McCune and White).

[whitskins]

I hope your right whitskins but I am not banking on it. Maybe one of these guys we opicked the last two years will pan out. But even if one does, there are a whole bunch that won't.

I love Gibbs but I am not giving him a pass on this. His 2nd day selections have been just as bad as Spurrier, Marty, and Norv...if not worse. Out of 6 selections only 2 were on the roster last year (Molinaro and Nemo) and neither saw significant game time despite injuries at the position they cover. 2 are already gone (Wilson and Newberry) and the other 2 are having problems learning the system (McCune and White).

Yes, there will probably be a whole bunch of low round picks that do not pan out, but that's why they are low round picks. They aren't guys who are expected to have long careers. They are projects and most of them will not make it, no matter what team they are on. Not to mention that the Skins rarely give low round or undrafted guys chances to compete because of their preference to add free agents, so I just don't see how a lack of production from 2nd day picks really hurts us at all.

And McCune had made it on the roster by the end of last season, he played on special teams. Wilson and Newberry clearly didn't pan out, but I'm not sure how anyone can claim that McCune and White are having problems learning the system when we haven't seen them play since preseason. And White broke his leg and was out for the year, so it's impossible to judge him. And even if these guys were on the roster all year long, they never would have played, so even if they are future stars they would not have gotten a chance to instantly impress because they were low on the depth charts and their positions were luckily not struck by injuries. They will need to stick around for years like Pierce did in order to get a chance to be properly judged.

I'm not saying we have a good track record with second day picks, we clearly don't, but we don't put a lot of emphasis on them in the first place. There are only rare instances on the team when a low round or undrafted guy gets a chance to play full time, and we've actually had a lot of success with those guys (Pierce, Marshall, Clark).

I just don't think we'll get many chances to see what second day guys can do because we fill our roster with so many free agents that we're not going to put a fifth round CB on the field full time, or a sixth rounder at backup QB most of the time. Gibbs has had a ton of success picking early round players and free agents, so when your roster is full of strong players, it's hard to find a place where a low round guy can make an impact, especially right away.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I hope your right whitskins but I am not banking on it. Maybe one of these guys we opicked the last two years will pan out. But even if one does, there are a whole bunch that won't.

I love Gibbs but I am not giving him a pass on this. His 2nd day selections have been just as bad as Spurrier, Marty, and Norv...if not worse. Out of 6 selections only 2 were on the roster last year (Molinaro and Nemo) and neither saw significant game time despite injuries at the position they cover. 2 are already gone (Wilson and Newberry) and the other 2 are having problems learning the system (McCune and White).
Dustin I think you were actually pretty balanced on your judgement of the last draft..it's true that McCune or White could end up contributing in some fashion, but after all you did include Jason Campbell in the "good" picks even though he has never stepped on the field..so all in all I think you gave a fair, yet painful, assessment...
I completely agree with you that 2nd day picks have been a real problem..don't forget guys that when Randy went down last year we had to play a 42 year old guard, and when he went down, in came the abominable Cory Raymer..

[whitskins]

a couple of points.. pierce was a free agent..we signed him post draft

and i would humbly disagree about us giving the second day picks a full chance because, seldom do any of them do much better with subsequent teams.. they were just poor picks all the way around..

Undrafted free agent and 6-7th round draft pick are about the same to me, at that point it's pretty much a toss up whether a team picks you in the draft or signs you afterwards. So I see Pierce in pretty much the same boat.

And yes many of our second day picks were poor players, but most low round draft picks turn out to do nothing in the NFL. Many guys hang on at the bottom of their team's depth chart until fate smiles on them and they get a chance, but the majority of the ones who get an early shot to show their stuff on game day are the ones who play for dreadful teams or cheap ones.

The Redskins are neither, so they are going to play low round guys the least out of almost every team in the league. The Redskins could have done what a lot of teams do when they have a hole at backup QB, TE, or nickel corner, and just draft a guy on the second day and plug them right in. But the Skins plug nearly every hole in free agency before they are forced to insert a low round rookie into a significant situation. So these guys need to hang on for several years before they are in a position to get their shot.

[whitskins]

Dustin I think you were actually pretty balanced on your judgement of the last draft..it's true that McCune or White could end up contributing in some fashion, but after all you did include Jason Campbell in the "good" picks even though he has never stepped on the field..so all in all I think you gave a fair, yet painful, assessment...
I completely agree with you that 2nd day picks have been a real problem..don't forget guys that when Randy went down last year we had to play a 42 year old guard, and when he went down, in came the abominable Cory Raymer..

Good point about the O-line, some quality depth could absolutely have been used there. That was no doubt a mistake and I think we'll make a concerted effort to repair that situation with our pleathora or second day picks this year.

My stance is that in most positions it's simply very difficult for a low round guy to see the field on this team, but we made a mistake in not taking at least one OL last year in the draft. This year I think we'll take at least two, maybe three, in addition to the two guys we have already signed.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Good point about the O-line, some quality depth could absolutely have been used there. That was no doubt a mistake and I think we'll make a concerted effort to repair that situation with our pleathora or second day picks this year.

My stance is that in most positions it's simply very difficult for a low round guy to see the field on this team, but we made a mistake in not taking at least one OL last year in the draft. This year I think we'll take at least two, maybe three, in addition to the two guys we have already signed.
I really really agree with you..if it were up to me, in rounds 5-7 I would take only o-line, CB, and d-line..those are positions where you absolutely need depth, and because it's only about a 3-1 shot of finding a decent player in those rounds, might as well draft as many of them as you can..
I can't understand why we chose 2 RBs last year..it's a position where we are extremely well set, and it's also a position where you might pick up somebody from the street during the season if you have a ton of injuries, and he might not be that bad..like what happened to GB this year..

[OCSKINSFAN]

I didn't talk about FA because I was focusing on the draft, since FA is over and the draft is on the way.

We have had successes in Free Agency, espescially FA under Gubbs versus before Gibbs. However Free Agency does not build depth. Not with the Salary cap in place. Free Agency is used mainly to fill holes and upgrade starting positions. A few vet minimum signings happen but most of those players enter free agency looking to start somewhere to earn a big payday or are no good to begin with.

Looking over the last 3 or 4 years I can't see many free agent signings that provided adequate depth when called upon. Ray Brown certainly was one, but not many others.

CNY - another one of your great articles (did you ever consider being a sportswriter?). I find that I almost always agree with your comments (I even was hoping the Skins would draft H Miller with their second 1st round pick last year - who knows what would have happened last season if the Skins had an effective additional receiving target). However, the Skins did do some FA depth signings this year - Wright, Collins, Pucillo, and Walter. I guess on past experience they weren't planning on successfully being able to do that in the draft (being an optimist, maybe that will change this year).

[shally]

CNY - another one of your great articles (did you ever consider being a sportswriter?). I find that I almost always agree with your comments (I even was hoping the Skins would draft H Miller with their second 1st round pick last year - who knows what would have happened last season if the Skins had an effective additional receiving target). However, the Skins did do some FA depth signings this year - Wright, Collins, Pucillo, and Walter. I guess on past experience they weren't planning on successfully being able to do that in the draft (being an optimist, maybe that will change this year).

problem is that none of those guys is a reserve tackle... that is were we are thin in reserves..

[CNYSkinFan]

CNY - another one of your great articles (did you ever consider being a sportswriter?). I find that I almost always agree with your comments (I even was hoping the Skins would draft H Miller with their second 1st round pick last year - who knows what would have happened last season if the Skins had an effective additional receiving target). However, the Skins did do some FA depth signings this year - Wright, Collins, Pucillo, and Walter. I guess on past experience they weren't planning on successfully being able to do that in the draft (being an optimist, maybe that will change this year).
lol...once when I was young and idealistic. I don't think I could have the passion to write about anything but football and the redskins anyways so it is probably all for the best I did not pursue a journalism degree.

Shally has already made this point but we are extremely thin at tackle. Alston is a former UFA and Molinaro is not progressing enough to feel safe with them at tackle. A low round pick at tackle is probably a good thing here. If the guy is not a wash out.

[CNYSkinFan]

I really really agree with you..if it were up to me, in rounds 5-7 I would take only o-line, CB, and d-line..those are positions where you absolutely need depth, and because it's only about a 3-1 shot of finding a decent player in those rounds, might as well draft as many of them as you can..
I can't understand why we chose 2 RBs last year..it's a position where we are extremely well set, and it's also a position where you might pick up somebody from the street during the season if you have a ton of injuries, and he might not be that bad..like what happened to GB this year..
I am not sure we need any dline. I think we are pretty set there. Carter, wynn, Daniels, and Evans on the ends, Grtiffen, Salve'a, Killings, and Boschetti at the tackles. You aren't going to find anyone in the low rounds of the draft better then those 8 guys who will take up the roster spots designated for the dline. Remember there is alot of versatility there with Evans, Boschetti and Wynn both able to play either tackle or end

[whitskins]

lol...once when I was young and idealistic. I don't think I could have the passion to write about anything but football and the redskins anyways so it is probably all for the best I did not pursue a journalism degree.

Shally has already made this point but we are extremely thin at tackle. Alston is a former UFA and Molinaro is not progressing enough to feel safe with them at tackle. A low round pick at tackle is probably a good thing here. If the guy is not a wash out.

I have noticed that the website Realfootball365.com is taking applications for freelance writers who are asked to write about their favorite teams.

There is no pay but it could be a cool opportunity.

http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/writers/

[CNYSkinFan]

I have noticed that the website Realfootball365.com is taking applications for freelance writers who are asked to write about their favorite teams.

There is no pay but it could be a cool opportunity.

http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/writers/

Thanks I will keep that in mind. I like writing here at hR though. Real fans many with way more knowledge then me anyways lol.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I am not sure we need any dline. I think we are pretty set there. Carter, wynn, Daniels, and Evans on the ends, Grtiffen, Salve'a, Killings, and Boschetti at the tackles. You aren't going to find anyone in the low rounds of the draft better then those 8 guys who will take up the roster spots designated for the dline. Remember there is alot of versatility there with Evans, Boschetti and Wynn both able to play either tackle or end
Yeah we are pretty set at dline..in fact I was talking in general..if I were a GM I would use the latter rounds to try and find somebody that could help at the premium positions..the lines, secondary, QB...I'm not gonna waste a pick on a fullback or a tight end or even a linebacker when I could find a bunch of them on the undrafted market..and in general it's much cheaper to sign depth for less important positions in free agency then it is to sign back up linemen or corners..

[shally]

Undrafted free agent and 6-7th round draft pick are about the same to me, at that point it's pretty much a toss up whether a team picks you in the draft or signs you afterwards. So I see Pierce in pretty much the same boat.

And yes many of our second day picks were poor players, but most low round draft picks turn out to do nothing in the NFL. Many guys hang on at the bottom of their team's depth chart until fate smiles on them and they get a chance, but the majority of the ones who get an early shot to show their stuff on game day are the ones who play for dreadful teams or cheap ones.

The Redskins are neither, so they are going to play low round guys the least out of almost every team in the league. The Redskins could have done what a lot of teams do when they have a hole at backup QB, TE, or nickel corner, and just draft a guy on the second day and plug them right in. But the Skins plug nearly every hole in free agency before they are forced to insert a low round rookie into a significant situation. So these guys need to hang on for several years before they are in a position to get their shot.

that is just the way the skins work things.. the younger, lower round players are expected to contribute on special teams.. if they can't, then you are correct, the skins are going to go out and get players like khary campbell or sykes to fill that role..

there is a great article by tandler (he is on a roll) over at warpathinsiders.com today on the skins drafting philosophy. he predicts the skins are going to continue to try and trade up.. and i agree with his take on things..

[CNYSkinFan]

that is just the way the skins work things.. the younger, lower round players are expected to contribute on special teams.. if they can't, then you are correct, the skins are going to go out and get players like khary campbell or sykes to fill that role..

there is a great article by tandler (he is on a roll) over at warpathinsiders.com today on the skins drafting philosophy. he predicts the skins are going to continue to try and trade up.. and i agree with his take on things..
Yeah I saw that too. Tandler is probably right. I wiould hope we package our 5th this year along with our 6th and maybe a 5th next year to move into the 4th round and get a shot at one of the quality TEs that will be available.

[shally]

Yeah we are pretty set at dline..in fact I was talking in general..if I were a GM I would use the latter rounds to try and find somebody that could help at the premium positions..the lines, secondary, QB...I'm not gonna waste a pick on a fullback or a tight end or even a linebacker when I could find a bunch of them on the undrafted market..and in general it's much cheaper to sign depth for less important positions in free agency then it is to sign back up linemen or corners..

i think that killing and boschetti are marginal players at best. killings played decently and surprised me a bit last year. boschetti seemed to take a step back compared to his first year. both salave'a and griffin are getting older and take a huge amount of punishment abd both missed time last year. when either is out, the defense is not nearly as solid. wynn and evans are ends playing tackle when they get in.
my point is that i would love to see them take a pure run stuffer, 2 gap player like gilbert brown on the second day.. someone to give the line some depth and push the last 2 guys for a position on the team

[SpicyMcHaggis]

i think that killing and boschetti are marginal players at best. killings played decently and surprised me a bit last year. boschetti seemed to take a step back compared to his first year. both salave'a and griffin are getting older and take a huge amount of punishment abd both missed time last year. when either is out, the defense is not nearly as solid. wynn and evans are ends playing tackle when they get in.
my point is that i would love to see them take a pure run stuffer, 2 gap player like gilbert brown on the second day.. someone to give the line some depth and push the last 2 guys for a position on the team
Fine by me..just as long as we steer clear of fullbacks..
But I think Dustin's point (and I agree) is that killings and boschetti, while marginal, are still decent players, and the odds of finding somebody better that low aren't high..it might end up being a wasted pick...

[shally]

Yeah I saw that too. Tandler is probably right. I wiould hope we package our 5th this year along with our 6th and maybe a 5th next year to move into the 4th round and get a shot at one of the quality TEs that will be available.

what tandler said, and what i agree most with, is that you do not try and change your drafting philosophy after your are 80-90 of the way there (at least i hope the skins are, and i do believe it..).

for all the people who are worried about trading off the future in terms of draft picks... welll.. that is just the way the skins have determined they are best able to to utilize that resource.. they are not the steelers or eagles that way and it would serve little purpose at this juncture to do so.. let them go out and get d quell or cromartie or ryans, or whomever they feel is going to help get them over the top. we have a 2 year window as it stands, so the future is really now... let's get er done !!!!

[CNYSkinFan]

yeah that is my thought. I also don't see Killings and Boschetti as the first guys off the bench either. Evans and Wynn though they are ends boith have played and will pay Defensive tackle. They will be the first guys off the bench in case of injury. Boschetti and Killings are only there iof we are decimated by injury on the line.

[CNYSkinFan]

ANd also I forgot we have Nic Clemons at end who did make the squad and will most likely be battiling for the last roster spot with Boschetti.

[shally]

Fine by me..just as long as we steer clear of fullbacks..
But I think Dustin's point (and I agree) is that killings and boschetti, while marginal, are still decent players, and the odds of finding somebody better that low aren't high..it might end up being a wasted pick...

i think you need to constantly challenge the players at the bottom of the roster by bringing in players who might be better. if they turn out no better than the guys you already have, cut them.. but it would be a mistake to simply assume that we cannot get players better than killings or boschetti. besides, guys get hurt and you need to have reserves for the reserves..
just glad we are not seeing haley or chase or dalton on the roster any more..

[shally]

yeah that is my thought. I also don't see Killings and Boschetti as the first guys off the bench either. Evans and Wynn though they are ends boith have played and will pay Defensive tackle. They will be the first guys off the bench in case of injury. Boschetti and Killings are only there iof we are decimated by injury on the line.

i think you can expect to see killings quite a bit.. griffin and salavea simply need blows because of how much they get beat up at that position..

evans and wynn are best for 3rd down or obvious pass rush situations.

i will be surprised if both n clemons and boschetti make the squad. someone from the draft or post draft free agency should be able to push them for the final spot or 2...

[HanburgerBum]

CNY - another one of your great articles (did you ever consider being a sportswriter?). I find that I almost always agree with your comments (I even was hoping the Skins would draft H Miller with their second 1st round pick last year - who knows what would have happened last season if the Skins had an effective additional receiving target). However, the Skins did do some FA depth signings this year - Wright, Collins, Pucillo, and Walter. I guess on past experience they weren't planning on successfully being able to do that in the draft (being an optimist, maybe that will change this year).


You wish the Skins had used the 2005 2nd first rounder on Heath Miller, and you wonder what would have happened if they had done that.

To start with, the team would have an againg QB (Brunell) with no "QB of the future" waiting in the wings. Patrick Ramsey would probably be the backup (that thought alone should scare you to death).

Miller presumably would have taken over for Royal at some point last year. But, with the talent Cooley has and the season he had, how many passes do you think would have been aimed towards Miller? With Saunders re-storing the FB position, Cooley would play more at TE. Who (Cooley or Miller) would be the starter at that position? If Cooley, the Skins would have used a first, a third and a fourth rounder (that was the cost) to acquire a backup TE.

Didn't Miller catch something like 35 balls for the champion Steelers? What makes you think his production with the Skins would go up? Do you honestly believe the Skins would have won the last SB with Miller?

I sure hope the Redskins front office doesn't catch the disease called "pining for a TE", which has afflicted some of the posters in this forum. It can be fatal to the team's health.

[CNYSkinFan]

Hamburger...I know you hated the idea of Miller last year but you cannot equate Pittsburgh's run first offense to the Redskins. Pittsburgh had 379 total passes, the Redskins had 481. I am sure we could have found a few more receptions and Miller could have had a 50 reception season...easily.

Also Miller would have easily started over Royal and would have blocked much better in both pass and run blocking.

When Patten wetn down the teams roleld their coverage toward Moss assigned a safety to Cooley and blitzed a lber to keep Portis in pass protection. Miller would have been a great option over the middle and at the least gave Cooley more space to work along with moss.

Remember I have already said I am glad we took Campbell over Miller because Ramsey proved to be a dud....but please stop making it out like Miller would have been the worst choice in the world (most of us were advocating a trade down to pick up Miller and get a corner in the 2nd round if you remember right. Then our first would be available this year). I know you disagreed with those of us who loved Heath Miller but he was a great prospect and he did do very well in Pittsburgh.

[HanburgerBum]

Hamburger...I know you hated the idea of Miller last year but you cannot equate Pittsburgh's run first offense to the Redskins. Pittsburgh had 379 total passes, the Redskins had 481. I am sure we could have found a few more receptions and Miller could have had a 50 reception season...easily.

Also Miller would have easily started over Royal and would have blocked much better in both pass and run blocking.

When Patten wetn down the teams roleld their coverage toward Moss assigned a safety to Cooley and blitzed a lber to keep Portis in pass protection. Miller would have been a great option over the middle and at the least gave Cooley more space to work along with moss.

Remember I have already said I am glad we took Campbell over Miller because Ramsey proved to be a dud....but please stop making it out like Miller would have been the worst choice in the world (most of us were advocating a trade down to pick up Miller and get a corner in the 2nd round if you remember right. Then our first would be available this year). I know you disagreed with those of us who loved Heath Miller but he was a great prospect and he did do very well in Pittsburgh.


You are probably right that Miller would have caught more passes here and would have taken some of the pressure off of Moss and Cooley. But, even the most ardent Miller fans wouldn't argue that he would have brought the Skins the SB last season. Absent that, any scenario to draft Miller last year would have made no sense.

If the Skins had not made the trade with Denver and instead traded down to pick Miller (as some of you suggested), Carlos Rogers wouldn't be here. Hopefully, you guys are not making the argument that Miller would have been better than Rogers, because that would be indefensible.

If the Skins made the trade with Denver and then used the late first rounder on Miller, he would have cost a 1st, a 3rd and a 4th. I don't know if Gonzalez, Heap or Gates would be worth that. And Miller is none of those.

I even agree somewhat that the position of a TE is more important than it used to be. But, it is still not as important as the generally accepted premiere positions in football. There is a reason TEs don't get paid as much as those positions. On top of that, there are so few complete TEs (can get separation, has great hands, can stretch the field, block like a demon), it just makes no sense to continually waste high picks on them.

[Keino]

Hamburger...I know you hated the idea of Miller last year but you cannot equate Pittsburgh's run first offense to the Redskins. Pittsburgh had 379 total passes, the Redskins had 481. I am sure we could have found a few more receptions and Miller could have had a 50 reception season...easily.

Also Miller would have easily started over Royal and would have blocked much better in both pass and run blocking.

When Patten wetn down the teams roleld their coverage toward Moss assigned a safety to Cooley and blitzed a lber to keep Portis in pass protection. Miller would have been a great option over the middle and at the least gave Cooley more space to work along with moss.

Remember I have already said I am glad we took Campbell over Miller because Ramsey proved to be a dud....but please stop making it out like Miller would have been the worst choice in the world (most of us were advocating a trade down to pick up Miller and get a corner in the 2nd round if you remember right. Then our first would be available this year). I know you disagreed with those of us who loved Heath Miller but he was a great prospect and he did do very well in Pittsburgh.


I don't think anyone questions Miller's abilities and certainly didnt at the time (His health was an issue, but not his abilities). But I recall at the time, and what I remember taking great exception to it, you advocated potentially using the #10 pick on Miller and seeking out a CB later. Citing the need for a Pass catching TE when we already had Cooley on the roster. Remember, a trade down scenario was not very likely, because there was nobody projected to be a can't miss at #10, that would've caused anyone to want to move up.

And there is no need to rehash this part of the debate, we don't agree here. TE and H-Back are interchangeable in my view, with the H-Back being more versatile, while you view them as wholly different positions.

With what proved to a hole at CB, I think we did the right thing by going for Rogers. I wouldn't have been disappointed to take Miller at 25, but then again, I don't think he (Or any TE for that matter) would've been worth 2 1st rounders (The one used to get him and the one we gave up). A Franchise QB on the other hand......and the jury hasn't even heard the evidence in that case.

Edit: I should've read Hanburger's response before I posted. Seems your 2 biggest opponents in that debate are still entrenched in their positions

[redskin_rich]

And there is no need to rehash this part of the debate, we don't agree here. TE and H-Back are interchangeable in my view, with the H-Back being more versatile, while you view them as wholly different positions.

I think just looking at the past, during Gibbs first tenure, proves that point. Who was the H-Back, who was the TE? Don Warren played mostly H-Back but he was a blocker, Clint Didier played mostly at TE yet he was mostly a receiver. I don't think Gibbs had anybody who was solely an H-Back back then other than maybe Craig McEwen for a couple years.

The positions are absolutely interchangeable just as a traditional Fullback is also. I'm not saying the same player can be good at all three positions but there is definitely a lot in common between them. Sellers can play all three but he is better suited at H-Back and Fullback. Cooley is best suited at TE and H-Back. And so on and so on....

[shally]

I think just looking at the past, during Gibbs first tenure, proves that point. Who was the H-Back, who was the TE? Don Warren played mostly H-Back but he was a blocker, Clint Didier played mostly at TE yet he was mostly a receiver. I don't think Gibbs had anybody who was solely an H-Back back then other than maybe Craig McEwen for a couple years.

The positions are absolutely interchangeable just as a traditional Fullback is also. I'm not saying the same player can be good at all three positions but there is definitely a lot in common between them. Sellers can play all three but he is better suited at H-Back and Fullback. Cooley is best suited at TE and H-Back. And so on and so on....

but he did have some players who were solely a tight end..

guys like caravelho and ron middleton went about 280 even then and i do not believe they went in motion. also, james jenkins was almost exclusively a tight end.
terry orr was nearly 100 % H back, but i think he might have played some tight end. couldn't swear to it...

[redskin_rich]

but he did have some players who were solely a tight end..

guys like caravelho and ron middleton went about 280 even then and i do not believe they went in motion. also, james jenkins was almost exclusively a tight end.
terry orr was nearly 100 % H back, but i think he might have played some tight end. couldn't swear to it...
You are correct but they weren't starters. Middleton was an extra Guard, plain and simple. He came in almost exclusively on the Big Jumbo package for goal line plays. Orr was one of the more athletic H-Back/TE's that we had, he was solely a reciever and an effective one. Too bad he wasn't used more but then we had a great WR corps.

[CNYSkinFan]

If TE and H-back are so interchangeable then answer me this question: How many times did Robert Royal line up at h-back? How many times did Sellars line up at TE?

Cooley is a very versatile player and thank god we have him. He can play both h-back and TE....but they aren't the same position. He is just a very good player.

And I advocated a trade down to acquire Miller as my preferred choice garnering extra picks to get a corner. I also surmised If Miller was Healthy he I would not be disappointed in getting him at #10. In my VQ article making the case for Heath Miller I wrote this:


I have always advocated that Miller should be selected only after a trade down. I also have recently come to the conclusion that a trade down was preferable no matter what player was drafted. However if no adequate trade down partner can be found I would still be happy if the Redskins selected Miller at #9. Last year the argument against Taylor was that safety is not a position that should be chosen that high. Now I hear the same argument against Miller this year. I think Miller could be our final cog in the offensive machine as Taylor was to the defense last year



Keino please stop saying I advocated taking Miller at #9 when I clearly stated I wanted a trade down. Sure I would have been Happy with Miller at #9 but that is different then saying we should take him there. And Hamburger I wrote this article before the Campbell trade so please stop the whole trading multiple picks for Miller comparison. It was not my position...never was.

AGAIN I am very happy with what we got in hindsight. But let's not make it look like my support of Miller and his ability last year was anything more then what it was. Wanting the Redskins to fill a position that actually turned out to be one of need.

Would we have gone to the Superbowl...who knows, I doubt it. I think our offense would have run smoother and perhaps a couplem more games wouled have been won that gave us the NFC East titale. However the offensive line injuries hurt us in the end, and Neither Miller nor the draft selections we did do helped that at all.

[danny's stogie]

AGAIN I am very happy with what we got in hindsight. But let's not make it look like my support of Miller and his ability last year was anything more then what it was. Wanting the Redskins to fill a position that actually turned out to be one of need.



Actually, and this corresponds to the other thread that Keino replied to, I think signing Fauria indicates that the position wasn't one of dire need. Fauria is a nice player, but he's not the extreme need filling signing that either Carter or one of the WR's was. Fauria isn't a fulltime starter at this point in his career and so the signing of merely a decent veteran indicates to me that the offensive coaching staff doesn't value Cooley's backup TE, H-Back, Fullback, slot reciever, whatever he is, very highly. And I only bring this up because it goes back to the other points in the Miller debate -- they have Cooley and thus they have bigger holes to fill.

[redskin_rich]

If TE and H-back are so interchangeable then answer me this question: How many times did Robert Royal line up at h-back? How many times did Sellars line up at TE?

Cooley is a very versatile player and thank god we have him. He can play both h-back and TE....but they aren't the same position. He is just a very good player.


That is kind of a slanted argument you make, Cooley is probably the best Gibbs has ever had to work with so barring injury, none was going to play his position. And again, certain players are more suited to play one place or the other but TE, H-Back and FB are not clearly defined positions like say LT, G, MLB, etc. There are no prototypes. Don Warren and now Chris Cooley are the best H-Back's the Skins have ever had, yet they are polar opposites in regards to skills.

[shally]

You are correct but they weren't starters. Middleton was an extra Guard, plain and simple. He came in almost exclusively on the Big Jumbo package for goal line plays. Orr was one of the more athletic H-Back/TE's that we had, he was solely a reciever and an effective one. Too bad he wasn't used more but then we had a great WR corps.

incidentally, orr came into the nfl as a fullback.. maybe 225 tops.. and he grew into an H back and tremendous special teams player. he might have saved the denver/wash superbowl game for the skins. the skins were reeling in the first qtr and had just given up a score. i think they were down 10-0 and on the kickoff the returner fumbled the ball. the pile consisted of about 4 or 5 denver players and terry orr.. i am utterly convinced that orr did not have the ball at the start of the scrum... but he came out of the scrum with it... the rest is history because on the very next series, right after they changed ends of the field, williams lit the broncos up for the greatest qtr in superbowl history... now, maybe they still win if denver gets the ball deep in the skins end... and maybe it turns out very different.
but in my mind, orr made the biggest play of the game... he was always a favorite of mine, if only for that reason

[CNYSkinFan]

This whole argument is a little moot because Saunders is changing the way we view a te/habck situation in ways that none of us can quite know yet. I personally think Cooley and Sellers will start games with Cooley at TE and Sellers at fullback. Then Cooley will occasionally play fullback (like he did as h-back) and Fauria will come in at TE.

[redwolf1218]

That is kind of a slanted argument you make, Cooley is probably the best Gibbs has ever had to work with so barring injury, none was going to play his position. And again, certain players are more suited to play one place or the other but TE, H-Back and FB are not clearly defined positions like say LT, G, MLB, etc. There are no prototypes. Don Warren and now Chris Cooley are the best H-Back's the Skins have ever had, yet they are polar opposites in regards to skills.
actually i think Clint Didier was statistically the best, but Cooley has blown his stats out of the water in only 2 years in the league, which is amazing. i always thought of Don Warren as the best blocker Gibbs ever had, but he didnt catch many passes.

[shally]

That is kind of a slanted argument you make, Cooley is probably the best Gibbs has ever had to work with so barring injury, none was going to play his position. And again, certain players are more suited to play one place or the other but TE, H-Back and FB are not clearly defined positions like say LT, G, MLB, etc. There are no prototypes. Don Warren and now Chris Cooley are the best H-Back's the Skins have ever had, yet they are polar opposites in regards to skills.

warren was clearly the best of his type... cooley will be in 1 year more if he continues at this pace.. until then, i would rate clint didier as the better player. clint could get behind the secondary for deep passes- whereas cooley has to be forgotten to do so..

incidentally, gibbs might have had the best of all on his roster the last year and let him go.. frank wycheck was just beginning to develop in gibbs last year. gibbs gets a pass because he was almost out the door, but it was a big mistake to let him go..

[redwolf1218]

warren was clearly the best of his type... cooley will be in 1 year more if he continues at this pace.. until then, i would rate clint didier as the better player. clint could get behind the secondary for deep passes- whereas cooley has to be forgotten to do so..

incidentally, gibbs might have had the best of all on his roster the last year and let him go.. frank wycheck was just beginning to develop in gibbs last year. gibbs gets a pass because he was almost out the door, but it was a big mistake to let him go..
you should look up Didier's stats. i did and posted the comparison a long time ago on here. Cooley has blown him out of the water.

[redskin_rich]

This whole argument is a little moot because Saunders is changing the way we view a te/habck situation in ways that none of us can quite know yet. I personally think Cooley and Sellers will start games with Cooley at TE and Sellers at fullback. Then Cooley will occasionally play fullback (like he did as h-back) and Fauria will come in at TE.
Agreed. Saunders mixes things up so much and reportedly never uses the same plays during any 4 game stretch, so this is going to be a learning year for all of us trying to peg down this offense and talk X's and O's.


Shally-
I remember that fumbled kickoff well. It appeared that Denver recovered and I was amazed when the Skins came up with it. No doubt that Orr did some fighting for that one and it was definitely a turning point in the game, as was Doug Williams refusing to let Schroeder take over after his injury. Doug had some extra motivation after Schroeder had waved him off the field, earlier that season.

[shally]

you should look up Didier's stats. i did and posted the comparison a long time ago on here. Cooley has blown him out of the water.

you might be right overall. but for about 2 years didier was the most dangerous tight end/H back in the league. he had the speed to get deep and burned other teams. but then they lost him to green bay and he never realy did much after that.

again, i think cooley will be a far better player for a far longer time than didier, but he does not have deep speed.

[redskin_rich]

incidentally, gibbs might have had the best of all on his roster the last year and let him go.. frank wycheck was just beginning to develop in gibbs last year. gibbs gets a pass because he was almost out the door, but it was a big mistake to let him go..
That was Norv that released Wycheck after he tested positive for steroids.

[redwolf1218]

you might be right overall. but for about 2 years didier was the most dangerous tight end/H back in the league. he had the speed to get deep and burned other teams. but then they lost him to green bay and he never realy did much after that.

again, i think cooley will be a far better player for a far longer time than didier, but he does not have deep speed.
i was just saying, that Cooley has had better stats already than Didier had in his best years.

[shally]

Agreed. Saunders mixes things up so much and reportedly never uses the same plays during any 4 game stretch, so this is going to be a learning year for all of us trying to peg down this offense and talk X's and O's.


Shally-
I remember that fumbled kickoff well. It appeared that Denver recovered and I was amazed when the Skins came up with it. No doubt that Orr did some fighting for that one and it was definitely a turning point in the game, as was Doug Williams refusing to let Schroeder take over after his injury. Doug had some extra motivation after Schroeder had waved him off the field, earlier that season.

you almost (but not quite) had to feel sorry for denver for losing that day the way they did. it had to feel like it was their destiny to lose no matter what... clearly washington was the better team, but better teams don't always win (the redskins vs the raiders still sticks in my craw).. that williams play was also memorable because i do not know if we win with schroeder in there. it was clearly our destiny to win on that day.

again, given how lucky denver had been over the years (the byner fumble was a gift from on high) i cannot feel sorry for them.. boo-f'in-hoo

[shally]

That was Norv that released Wycheck after he tested positive for steroids.

i didn't know that... my bad... i guess if he had tested positive for crack or pot norv would have kept him because he would have understood that from his cowboy daze...

[shally]

i was just saying, that Cooley has had better stats already than Didier had in his best years.

no problem... i am just happy we have cooley as a redskin.. he was a great pick... and again, another trade up using a future pick.. the redskin way of drafting.. watch it happen again this year...

[CNYSkinFan]

in the interest of full disclosure I have to confess something about my Heath Miller stance.

The article I quoted above was from an Article I posted before the trade with Denver. However I ended up pulling it when the trade was announced and within like 3 hours re-did an article with the trade in mind.

The original article on Miller you can read here:

Vision Quest: The Case for Heath Miller (http://cnyskinfan.blogspot.com/2005/04/case-for-heath-miller.html)

The follow up article was this one

Vision Quest: And then there were two (http://cnyskinfan.blogspot.com/2005/04/vision-quest-and-then-there-were-two.html)

All I can say about the second article is wow was I wrong about Pac Man and I had not had time to digest the whole Campbell trade and was believing the initial denials from Redskin Park regarding their interest in Campbell.

So that is all for full disclosure.

[HanburgerBum]

in the interest of full disclosure I have to confess something about my Heath Miller stance.

The article I quoted above was from an Article I posted before the trade with Denver. However I ended up pulling it when the trade was announced and within like 3 hours re-did an article with the trade in mind.

The original article on Miller you can read here:

Vision Quest: The Case for Heath Miller (http://cnyskinfan.blogspot.com/2005/04/case-for-heath-miller.html)

The follow up article was this one

Vision Quest: And then there were two (http://cnyskinfan.blogspot.com/2005/04/vision-quest-and-then-there-were-two.html)

All I can say about the second article is wow was I wrong about Pac Man and I had not had time to digest the whole Campbell trade and was believing the initial denials from Redskin Park regarding their interest in Campbell.

So that is all for full disclosure.


You know that we have a difference of opinion about Heath Miller. I wouldn't spend a first rounder on him under any circumstances, but your opinion about him is well-reasoned and not devoid of merit.

I certainly do give you credit for listing Carlos Rogers and Shawn Merriman among the potential draftees for the Skins. It reminded me that my preference last year for pick #9 was Merriman and Rogers in that order. My guess is that when it came down to it the Skins' need at corner was greater than LB, and Merriman may be a better fit for the 3-4 than the 4-3. A year later, it is still a close call between those two.

I won't nitpick your choice of Pacman Jones over Rogers. Many boards had Jones rated higher. On top of that he is a premiere returner, which turned out to be a trouble spot all of 2005 for the Skins. Thus, it would have been perfectly understandable if the Skins had Jones in mind for #9.

I would quarrel with your projection of the #25 pick being the WR Jones or TE Miller. Not that #25 was too high for them, but you have to remember that Gibbs spent a 1st, a 3rd and a 4th rounder to acquire the #25 selection. Given that scenario, there is no way to justify using that pick on anything other than a critical position. And, Gibbs has always regarded QB as the most critical position on a team. Thus, that trade with Denver had to have been made with drafting a QB in mind. I seriously doubt Aaron Rodgers was that QB (thank God GB opted for him). So, Jason Campbell had to be the player Gibbs was targeting. If Gibbs had another position in mind, he would never have made that trade with Denver because the cost would have been too high. But, for a potential franchise QB, that is not an unreasonable price.

[Keino]

Keino please stop saying I advocated taking Miller at #9 when I clearly stated I wanted a trade down. Sure I would have been Happy with Miller at #9 but that is different then saying we should take him there. And Hamburger I wrote this article before the Campbell trade so please stop the whole trading multiple picks for Miller comparison. It was not my position...never was.



I haven't mischaracterized your position at all. What you said and even is stated in your quote is that you wanted a Trade down scenario, but IF one wasn't possible, you would be ok with taking Miller at 9. That was the position I took exception to then and now. Miller was simply not worth using the #9 pick on, when we had bigger holes at more premium positions like CB.

If you only advocated Miller in a trade-down scenario, our debate on the issue would've never occured.

[redwolf1218]

Here's a pretty good career comparison.
source: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/index.htm
Don Warren had an amazing career. i didnt realize he was a Redskins for 12 years. Didier's best year for receptions was 41, for TD's, 5. Cooley had 37 and 6 as a rookie, and 71/7 last year (amazing in only his 2nd year). Having Don Warren and Clint Didier together was priceless. what we need now is the Don Warren type compliment to Chris Cooley.

Clint Didier:
+-------------------------+
| Receiving |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+
| 1982 was | 8 | 2 10 5.0 1 |
| 1983 was | 16 | 9 153 17.0 4 |
| 1984 was | 11 | 30 350 11.7 5 |
| 1985 was | 16 | 41 433 10.6 4 |
| 1986 was | 14 | 34 691 20.3 4 |
| 1987 was | 9 | 13 178 13.7 1 |
| 1988 gnb | 15 | 5 37 7.4 1 |
| 1989 gnb | 16 | 7 71 10.1 1 |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 105 | 141 1923 13.6 21 |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+

Don Warren:
+-------------------------+
| Receiving |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+
| 1979 was | 16 | 26 303 11.7 0 |
| 1980 was | 13 | 31 323 10.4 0 |
| 1981 was | 16 | 29 335 11.6 1 |
| 1982 was | 9 | 27 310 11.5 0 |
| 1983 was | 13 | 20 225 11.2 2 |
| 1984 was | 16 | 18 192 10.7 0 |
| 1985 was | 16 | 15 163 10.9 1 |
| 1986 was | 16 | 20 164 8.2 1 |
| 1987 was | 12 | 7 43 6.1 0 |
| 1988 was | 14 | 12 112 9.3 0 |
| 1989 was | 15 | 15 167 11.1 1 |
| 1990 was | 16 | 15 123 8.2 1 |
| 1991 was | 10 | 5 51 10.2 0 |
| 1992 was | 11 | 4 25 6.2 0 |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 193 | 244 2536 10.4 7 |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+

Chris Cooley:
+-------------------------+
| Receiving |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+
| 2004 was | 16 | 37 314 8.5 6 |
| 2005 was | 16 | 71 774 10.9 7 |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 32 | 108 1088 10.1 13 |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+

[Keino]

Wow. Cooley is crushing them both in terms of TD Catches per season.

Warren had less than 1 per year and in fact Cooley's 7 tied Warren's career total.

Cooley may be our best TE since Jerry Smith.

[redwolf1218]

Wow. Cooley is crushing them both in terms of TD Catches per season.

Warren had less than 1 per year and in fact Cooley's 7 tied Warren's career total.

Cooley may be our best TE since Jerry Smith.

Jerry Smith, from the same reference. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/index.htm
Smth crushed in TD's in a season with 12, but Cooley's receptions and yards totals last year must have set records for a single season.


+-------------------------+
| Receiving |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+
| 1965 was | 14 | 19 257 13.5 2 |
| 1966 was | 14 | 54 686 12.7 6 |
| 1967 was | 14 | 67 849 12.7 12 |
| 1968 was | 13 | 45 626 13.9 6 |
| 1969 was | 14 | 54 682 12.6 9 |
| 1970 was | 14 | 43 575 13.4 9 |
| 1971 was | 8 | 16 227 14.2 1 |
| 1972 was | 14 | 21 353 16.8 7 |
| 1973 was | 13 | 19 215 11.3 0 |
| 1974 was | 14 | 44 554 12.6 3 |
| 1975 was | 14 | 31 391 12.6 3 |
| 1976 was | 13 | 7 75 10.7 2 |
| 1977 was | 9 | 1 6 6.0 0 |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 168 | 421 5496 13.1 60 |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+

[CNYSkinFan]

Cooley could eclipse Smith if we keep him on the roster. Smith's break out year td wise was his third. I don't know if Cooley will get near 12 this next year with so many targets. But he still is the only possession type receiver and makes a tempting red zone target. Smith only averaged 4.6 tds per season and Cooley could conceivably do that if he pours it on the next few years.

[bgforever]

Cooley could eclipse Smith if we keep him on the roster. Smith's break out year td wise was his third. I don't know if Cooley will get near 12 this next year with so many targets. But he still is the only possession type receiver and makes a tempting red zone target. Smith only averaged 4.6 tds per season and Cooley could conceivably do that if he pours it on the next few years.

yeah, that TD ratio will go up, not down, only the rec/yards will decrease, because of the threat that BOTH Llyod and Randle El will bring along with Fiarua getting a few too.

Cooley's rec to td ratio will be a lot like Sellers was, but on a grander scale. Like every 2-3, a likely TD will be scored.

[Keino]

Cooley could eclipse Smith if we keep him on the roster. Smith's break out year td wise was his third. I don't know if Cooley will get near 12 this next year with so many targets. But he still is the only possession type receiver and makes a tempting red zone target. Smith only averaged 4.6 tds per season and Cooley could conceivably do that if he pours it on the next few years.

Well 2 things about Smiths numbers in 1967.

1. He had to share the ball with Charley Taylor and Bobby Mitchell. The three of them finished 1,2 & 3 in receptions in the nfl that year.

2. What makes the 12 TD's that much more impressive is the fact that it was done in a 14 team game season.


There's no reason to think that Cooley with his robust 6.5 TD per year average won't continue to be that productive Red-zone target. I would love to see him eclipse the 60TD mark that Smith set.

[Dept_of_Defense]

Well 2 things about Smiths numbers in 1967.

1. He had to share the ball with Charley Taylor and Bobby Mitchell. The three of them finished 1,2 & 3 in receptions in the nfl that year.

2. What makes the 12 TD's that much more impressive is the fact that it was done in a 14 team game season.


There's no reason to think that Cooley with his robust 6.5 TD per year average won't continue to be that productive Red-zone target. I would love to see him eclipse the 60TD mark that Smith set.
That is wild that one team had 3 recievers that finished 1,2, & 3 in receptions in the NFL. You will never see that anymore. Doesn't say too much about the running game though.

[shally]

Wow. Cooley is crushing them both in terms of TD Catches per season.

Warren had less than 1 per year and in fact Cooley's 7 tied Warren's career total.

Cooley may be our best TE since Jerry Smith.

the only thing that cooley really lacks is smith's deeper speed. smith, as you know, played both wideout and tight end and was really a hybrid.
kind of the forerunner of the shannon sharpe type of player. i do not think he was the greatest blocker as a tight end.. adequate at best

[shally]

That is wild that one team had 3 recievers that finished 1,2, & 3 in receptions in the NFL. You will never see that anymore. Doesn't say too much about the running game though.

you are right.. until they got larry brown it was running back by committee.

guys like a d whitfield, billy ray barnes, gerry allen, and a bunch of really poor quality runners.

actually charley taylor came into the league as a runner and was one for 2 years with the skins until they correctly realized he was far too valuable to play there. he was a great runner, however.

[redwolf1218]

after reading this article, i have begun to think that it's not so much that we have not picked well on the 2nd day of the draft, it's just that we've done so well in free agency that there's no room on the roster for draft picks. those rookies from the 2nd day are not likely to beat the veterans for a roster spot.
http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=16764

[GoDannyBoy]

I think the second day strategy has been replaced by getting 2nd or 3rd year guys who have bounced around a while but have good attitude and work ethics. Give'm a chance to see if they work out.

So I agree trading some of the picks this draft might make some sense but I don't favor trading next year's pick unless it was really important.

Only a couple more days. I can't wait.

I have a feeling our 1st or 2nd for next year is already gone.

[CNYSkinFan]

after reading this article, i have begun to think that it's not so much that we have not picked well on the 2nd day of the draft, it's just that we've done so well in free agency that there's no room on the roster for draft picks. those rookies from the 2nd day are not likely to beat the veterans for a roster spot.
http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=16764

Then why aren't these guys making one of the other 31 team's roster? If we have such great depth that rookies cannot make the squad why have we been so thin at corner, wr, and oline the last few years, espescially last?

That article is great spin but I don't think we have any second day strategy and our scouting has been less then stellar.

[redskin_rich]

Then why aren't these guys making one of the other 31 team's roster? If we have such great depth that rookies cannot make the squad why have we been so thin at corner, wr, and oline the last few years, espescially last?

That article is great spin but I don't think we have any second day strategy and our scouting has been less then stellar.
It's kind of hard to tell since we haven't had a lot of draft picks over the last few years and it's still a little early to judge all of last year's second day picks. But having said that, we have a bunch in the latter rounds this year and if our FO can pick out a plum or two, than it would be a success. We definitely could use upgrades in depth at various positions and there is noone on our current practice squad that I see being here in the long term.

[redwolf1218]

Then why aren't these guys making one of the other 31 team's roster? If we have such great depth that rookies cannot make the squad why have we been so thin at corner, wr, and oline the last few years, espescially last?

That article is great spin but I don't think we have any second day strategy and our scouting has been less then stellar.
i get what you're saying. that's why i think we should just get 1 or 2 top notch players instead of 5 or 6 guys who are projects. i'd be happy to see them deal next year's 1st and some of the late round picks to end up with 2 or 3 picks somewhere in the 1st day. the "projects" can be brought in after the draft.

many of our 2nd day picks have been converted into players anyway, which could factor into the equation. picks were used to aquire Brunell, Thrash, Campbell, Lloyd, Cooley, Portis, maybe others i have forgotten.

[redwolf1218]

here's a good article that talks about how many players would probably be kept at each position and who would probably have to be released if a draft pick were to make the roster at that position.
http://redskins.scout.com/2/524757.html