Holdman has edge?!?!

[3Taylor6]

http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=17797

how is this possible...there has to be someone out there better

[redwolf1218]

i just put this in another thread. great article. looks like Clemons is on the outside looking in.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Might as well start praying the other teams run to the other side...

[S.Taylor36]

That's it, I never thought it would come to this but I'm gonna have to take Holdman myself, lol. I pray they are just trying to make him feel good or something.

[redwolf1218]

Might as well start praying the other teams run to the other side...
dont be too quick to judge, and i say that to myself also. many of us put down Brunell until his 2nd year here. Holdman has overcome injuries and he might have returned to top form. he was thrown to the wolves last year, but he's had a year in the system now and he's been studying. he's not old, yet he has experience and a history with the defensive coaches.

[CNYSkinFan]

Can Jesse Lumsden play wlb?

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Can Jesse Lumsden play wlb?
Better than Holdman? Probably so.

[redwolf1218]

Can Jesse Lumsden play wlb?
i think since the running back position is full, he will have to play both ways, at linebacker and tightend.

[shally]

Can Jesse Lumsden play wlb?

you have lost all credibility, sir...
:lol1: might as well own up to the fact that you are a closet lumsden fan..

they are going to let him play center/MLB and be the next chuck bednarik 2 way player....

[Redskin-4-life]

dont be too quick to judge, and i say that to myself also. many of us put down Brunell until his 2nd year here. Holdman has overcome injuries and he might have returned to top form. he was thrown to the wolves last year, but he's had a year in the system now and he's been studying. he's not old, yet he has experience and a history with the defensive coaches.
I agree!

[shally]

http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=17797

how is this possible...there has to be someone out there better

holdman ???? NNNOOOOOOOOOOOO..

taylor jacobs ???? NNNNOOOOOOOOO.....

is this some kind of bad dream ? next thing they will be saying frost is making lonie look like a chump....

[silverspring]

holdman needs to go away, i don't see how his play last year didn't make it transparent to the coaches that he should never be more then a backup.

[ryflan47]

I can see Clemons possibly not making the roster if Holdman continues to "impress".

[silverspring]

I can see Clemons possibly not making the roster if Holdman continues to "impress".

that would destroy me. Clemons has long term upside, holdman is clearly past his prime and showed it last year. I would much rather put clemons in even if holdman looked a little better because it is a good investment.

[Skinz4lyfe]

This doesn't surprise me much. Honestly its only June and he has the most experience being an every down LB of all the candidates. One thing I did like was that GW was very impressed with McIntosh and said he was really come on strong. I only hope that McIntosh can fully recover in time to get some reps and outperform Holdman. As I believe CNY said, if Holdman isn't a starter he's likely gone because he doesn't play special teams. I believe that too.

[whitskins]

Holdman isn't making the team unless he can legitimately do the job. Our coaches know what they're doing here. Everybody calm down.

[GoDannyBoy]

Can Jesse Lumsden play wlb?

Should this be moved to the Jesse love thread?

[GoDannyBoy]

Holdman probably stays for the same reason Patten does. He has the experience to come and play the way the coaches want. Maybe nothing great, but he will hold the fort while the young guys get up to speed.

They will keep the best and SF will sign our castoffs!

[Red Bear]

Holdman probably stays for the same reason Patten does. He has the experience to come and play the way the coaches want. Maybe nothing great, but he will hold the fort while the young guys get up to speed.

They will keep the best and SF will sign our castoffs!

i can actually see SF signing taylor jacobs

[IowaSkinsFan]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling, Holdman is going to be the starting Will.

I don't know why this would come as a surprise to anyone, considering that McIntosh is sitting this camp out and Clemons has never been a 3 down LB in the NFL.

[Red Bear]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling, Holdman is going to be the starting Will.

I don't know why this would come as a surprise to anyone, considering that McIntosh is sitting this camp out and Clemons has never been a 3 down LB in the NFL.

to be honest, i dont really get why so many people are high on chris clemons. he really hasnt proven anything to me. so he has a few career sacks and a few hurries/pressures maybe. the guy really has had a rather unproductive career. but he has stuck around for a reason i guess. im not really sold on him being an everydown LB or even a 2 down LB

[IowaSkinsFan]

What I am really surprised at from this article is that no on flipped out when Williams mentioned Robert McCune as a possibility at the Will, ahead of Khary Campbell and Spencer Havner.

I can think of one member who would think Gregg Williams an idiot for mentioning it.

[Red Bear]

What I am really surprised at from this article is that no on flipped out when Williams mentioned Robert McCune as a possibility at the Will, ahead of Khary Campbell and Spencer Havner.

I can think of one member who would think Gregg Williams an idiot for mentioning it.

i believe they will keep khary campbell as a backup in the middle for lemar marshall. and i think williams said spencer havner is working on the strongside to possibly win a job backing up marcus washington. and im not really too optimistic about mccune making the 53 man roster. but whoever does win jobs at LB i will cheer for them to do well when theyre on the field.

[lakeskin]

Ummm, it's June. Plenty of time for Rocky to take over the position. No need to panic about Dale Lindsey's favorite player.

[Death_Venom]

Holdman isn't making the team unless he can legitimately do the job. Our coaches know what they're doing here. Everybody calm down.

Holdman has experience the coaches want-and the upside of that is our 2nd Rounder McIntosh is quickly making a a very positive impression on our defensive coaching staff. All things considered I do not think Holdman was "horrible" as most everyone believes-and we all know that Williams will rotate LB's at any time and frequently.

[NCskinsfanatic]

dont be too quick to judge, and i say that to myself also. many of us put down Brunell until his 2nd year here. Holdman has overcome injuries and he might have returned to top form. he was thrown to the wolves last year, but he's had a year in the system now and he's been studying. he's not old, yet he has experience and a history with the defensive coaches.

Actually I couldnt agree more with this line of thinking...Holdman had a much more serious knee injury to overcome than say...I dunno...LaVar. I think that the injury coupled with being in a new, more aggresive D had a lot to do with his lackluster performance last season. He might just suprise us all but IMHO the spot will be Rockys in the longrun, probably before seasons end however if Holdman can return to the form he showed in Chicago then it will only help us on the defensive side of the ball should injuries rear their ugly head.

[NCskinsfanatic]

i believe they will keep khary campbell as a backup in the middle for lemar marshall. and i think williams said spencer havner is working on the strongside to possibly win a job backing up marcus washington. and im not really too optimistic about mccune making the 53 man roster. but whoever does win jobs at LB i will cheer for them to do well when theyre on the field.
Campbell is likely Marshalls back up but I wouldnt be suprised to see Simon make a push for that spot....health may be the only issue with him making the squad, If he's healthy then IMO he's a GW LB all the way.

[shally]

Holdman probably stays for the same reason Patten does. He has the experience to come and play the way the coaches want. Maybe nothing great, but he will hold the fort while the young guys get up to speed.

They will keep the best and SF will sign our castoffs!

not if he plays the way he played last year.. he made mental errors as well.
if he can upgrade his play, it will increase the level of competition. that benefits the team as a whole

[shally]

What I am really surprised at from this article is that no on flipped out when Williams mentioned Robert McCune as a possibility at the Will, ahead of Khary Campbell and Spencer Havner.

I can think of one member who would think Gregg Williams an idiot for mentioning it.

havner is being groomed for the strong side position.. campbell plays mike, possibly will.. mostly he is a special teamer..

[Smurf85]

I dont really like Holman either,but you know what.If GW says he is good than i will take his word.

[shally]

I dont really like Holman either,but you know what.If GW says he is good than i will take his word.

true.. and at one time he was a fine linebacker for chicago... he doesn't play special teams so he will need to be clearly superior as a starter to make the team, i believe..

[danny's stogie]

Yeah, I don't see why this comes as a suprise to so many people. Veterans have won jobs over rookies and young guys time and time again on GW and Joe Gibbs' Skins.

[chrisbcbu]

I think everyone missed the best quote in the whole article:

"Last week [during OTAs], the light went on for Rocky McIntosh and he was really having some great practices," Williams said. "He did about three or four things last week that was the best of any linebacker I've had since I've been here. Hopefully the game is slowing down for him right now."

And this would include Marcus Washington! That is some high praise for Rocky!!

Get well soon!!

[redwolf1218]

I think everyone missed the best quote in the whole article:



And this would include Marcus Washington! That is some high praise for Rocky!!

Get well soon!!
he said something similar about Sean Taylor a long time ago. throw in Carlos Rogers development, then add guys like Arch and Carter, and this defense is going to be one of the most athletic around the league. they are also young and coming into their prime so they should be together for a long time.

[GoDannyBoy]

I like what Williams was saying about Holdman's conditioning. Gibbs has also talked about how conditioning is important to finishing the season strong.

That is a big difference to some of the past regimes. Guys maybe showed up at OTAs and some out of shape. We even signed guys off the street who were out of shape? What does that say?

I think team unity and conditioning are going to pay off really big this year as well as the new coaches. It is all cumulative.

[hail2skins]

I say let's see what happens once the pads are put on. Everyone looks good in shorts and tee's but one the pads go on, it's a different story. Both McIntosh and Clemons are behind because of the injuries. I believe that's the edge that Holdman has.

[Red Bear]

Campbell is likely Marshalls back up but I wouldnt be suprised to see Simon make a push for that spot....health may be the only issue with him making the squad, If he's healthy then IMO he's a GW LB all the way.

i think simon will be put on the practice squad this year

[LATrueRedskin]

This is pretty much what I expected, and what I'm most comfortable with. Holdman is the best option we have there right now. I think another season under the system is helping him a lot.

[bgforever]

Ummm, it's June. Plenty of time for Rocky to take over the position. No need to panic about Dale Lindsey's favorite player.

True, look at LAST Junes verbage on how players are doing. Any similarities and then of course opening day roster contradicted those so-called "ahead" of the pack players?

[Red Bear]

True, look at LAST Junes verbage on how players are doing. Any similarities and then of course opening day roster contradicted those so-called "ahead" of the pack players?

ie - clifton smith

[redskinz#1fan]

This doesn't surprise me much. Honestly its only June and he has the most experience being an every down LB of all the candidates. One thing I did like was that GW was very impressed with McIntosh and said he was really come on strong. I only hope that McIntosh can fully recover in time to get some reps and outperform Holdman. As I believe CNY said, if Holdman isn't a starter he's likely gone because he doesn't play special teams. I believe that too.


This is how I see it also. I think we don't need to read too much into this. GW made some comments about how Holdman is working hard and has an advantage right now, well he is supposed too. He has only been in the league since they were wearing leather helmets. This is not a big deal. Now if at then end of TC they say that Holdman is the best LB, then we need to put the entire HR on suicide watch.

[Wild Bore]

This article is just marketing spin put out by Redskin.com to keep fan interest up and create an atmosphere of competition during the off-season. Pay no interest in it no matter which way it goes right now. Williams is just trying to jack up all the players involved in one of the only competitive positions on the field. Geez, McIntosh is not really even playing during this mini-camp, so how is there ANY competition going on right now.

Also, I don't understand those ready to throw Holdman under the bus. Someone rightly pointed out that people did the same thing Brunell after his first year as well and look what he did the next year. Some are still calling for him to be replaced by Campbell (just like they are calling for McIntosh to replace Holdman). I will never understand why some are so sure of players who have never even played a down that they are better alternatives.

Let it all play out.

[Red Bear]

This article is just marketing spin put out by Redskin.com to keep fan interest up and create an atmosphere of competition during the off-season. Pay no interest in it no matter which way it goes right now. Williams is just trying to jack up all the players involved in one of the only competitive positions on the field. Geez, McIntosh is not really even playing during this mini-camp, so how is there ANY competition going on right now.

Also, I don't understand those ready to throw Holdman under the bus. Someone rightly pointed out that people did the same thing Brunell after his first year as well and look what he did the next year. Some are still calling for him to be replaced by Campbell (just like they are calling for McIntosh to replace Holdman). I will never understand why some are so sure of players who have never even played a down that they are better alternatives.

Let it all play out.

actually williams himself said holdman had the edge. and it wasnt just to redskins.com as it was also posted in the washington post, i dont think its a marketing spin

[redskinz#1fan]

actually williams himself said holdman had the edge. and it wasnt just to redskins.com as it was also posted in the washington post, i dont think its a marketing spin

Well we all know how well the post does when it comes to reporting on the redskins. So good that they had most of their season tickets revoked by Synder. We feed them and all the other news people exactly what we want them to report. The real news is now coming from redskins.com-tv, or at least the breaking news.

[HanburgerBum]

What I am really surprised at from this article is that no on flipped out when Williams mentioned Robert McCune as a possibility at the Will, ahead of Khary Campbell and Spencer Havner.

I can think of one member who would think Gregg Williams an idiot for mentioning it.


I think the one member you alluded to may be me. I don't believe McCune is a NFL positional player, and I was surprised to hear GW mention him. Maybe that was GW's way of rewarding McCune for all the offseason hard work he put in.

Can McCune make this roster? Barring injuries, he is probably the 4th option at WLB. So, realistically, McCune is fighting with Khary Campbell for the 7th spot as the special team/LB player. I am guessing Campbell wins that battle because he has at least seen the field on the odd occasion as a backer.

[HanburgerBum]

As Redwolf said, can Holdman be the Mark Brunnel of 2006? And, can Taylor Jacobs (the Tin Man) find a heart? When it's your year, anything is possible.

[shally]

As Redwolf said, can Holdman be the Mark Brunnel of 2006? And, can Taylor Jacobs (the Tin Man) find a heart? When it's your year, anything is possible.

holdman ??, maybe, based upon past performance.
jacobs ?? i think that is wishfull thinking right now..

[joethefan]

Might as well start praying the other teams run to the other side...

LOL THAT IS FUNNY

:lol3:

[smoak]

Can Jesse Lumsden play wlb?

Maybe it is b/c I don't pay attention as much, but I feel like you mention Lumsden 3x more than anyone else??? Is it possible you are hiding a man-crush? I have to say that this smells like a case of "methinks thou doth protest too much".

:D

I am hopeful Holdman can get back to form. The only way he can be worse is to average LESS than a tackle per game. :rolleyes:

What I am really surprised at from this article is that no on flipped out when Williams mentioned Robert McCune as a possibility at the Will, ahead of Khary Campbell and Spencer Havner.

I can think of one member who would think Gregg Williams an idiot for mentioning it.

I need to see some preseason snaps first, but I feel more comfortable with McCune than Clemons and I was privately thinking that Holdman wouldn't make the cut. We'll see I guess.

[PennSkinsFan]

This is the kind of quote that gets me excited. Holdman knows what he has to do

"It's all up to me. I owe the Redskins for last year. I know they expected more of me. That wasn't me. I owe them a good season."

[redwolf1218]

they said they moved Clemons over to the strong side to back up Marcus. he kind of complained about it. they also said he needs to make more plays on special teams. the comments were not exactly glowing in his favor. i am not feeling all that great about Clemons anymore.

PSF, i like Holdman's comments too. sounds like he has a chip on his shoulder and he wants to prove himself. it's a great attitude that he feels like he owes the team.

[shally]

they said they moved Clemons over to the strong side to back up Marcus. he kind of complained about it. they also said he needs to make more plays on special teams. the comments were not exactly glowing in his favor. i am not feeling all that great about Clemons anymore.

PSF, i like Holdman's comments too. sounds like he has a chip on his shoulder and he wants to prove himself. it's a great attitude that he feels like he owes the team.

might end up with clemons and havner fighting over the same spot..

[PennSkinsFan]

might end up with clemons and havner fighting over the same spot..

If they are really high on Havner, Clemons may be in deep trouble. I don't see all 4 making the team. If Holdman and McIntosh are locks, then you have Simon, Havner, and Clemons left. This will become a special teams battle. Who will impress Danny Smith more?

[silverspring]

i am kind of shocked they moved clemons to backup up MW. Maybe this move was done as a way to help justify keeping him, but i hope they aren't having amnesia concerning holdman's play WITH pads on last year.

[CNYSkinFan]

Maybe it is b/c I don't pay attention as much, but I feel like you mention Lumsden 3x more than anyone else??? Is it possible you are hiding a man-crush? I have to say that this smells like a case of "methinks thou doth protest too much".[quote]

:sfight: alright Smoaky you and me are gonna fight if you keep talking like that!!!

Anyways Rev. Skinfan43 has more Jesse in him then all of us!!!

[quote]



I am hopeful Holdman can get back to form. The only way he can be worse is to average LESS than a tackle per game. :rolleyes:



I need to see some preseason snaps first, but I feel more comfortable with McCune than Clemons and I was privately thinking that Holdman wouldn't make the cut. We'll see I guess.

I think someone else mentioned in this thread Clifton Smith froim last year. How all the coaches were praising him in minicamp and he was cut early in training camp. What I have noticed about this coaching staff is they go out of their way to priaise the athletes under their care to the press and really say absolutely nothing bad about guys who are out there trying to work, even if they don't have the talent or are performing under expectation. If you are hustling and it is not a matter of conditioning or missing time due to legal matters, they will never publicly scold you.

IUf I was them I would put Holdman first too. You want to have either Rocky or Clemons win the job, not annoint them. That rarely works. And if Holdman can get an ego boost by workjing with the starting squad and perform better then last year so be it (although I have to say at this point I doubt it).

What it comes down to is this, IMO. Rocky needs to show he can grasp the GW system and be physically able to start on opening day or Clemons needs to show he is an all around LB and can pave the way for Rocky's eventual starting (ala Joe Smith for Lavar), or Warrick stays on the team and Arch is used in support on the weak side more often then not.

[skinfan43]

[quote=smoak]Maybe it is b/c I don't pay attention as much, but I feel like you mention Lumsden 3x more than anyone else??? Is it possible you are hiding a man-crush? I have to say that this smells like a case of "methinks thou doth protest too much".[quote]

:sfight: alright Smoaky you and me are gonna fight if you keep talking like that!!!

Anyways Rev. Skinfan43 has more Jesse in him then all of us!!!



I think someone else mentioned in this thread Clifton Smith froim last year. How all the coaches were praising him in minicamp and he was cut early in training camp. What I have noticed about this coaching staff is they go out of their way to priaise the athletes under their care to the press and really say absolutely nothing bad about guys who are out there trying to work, even if they don't have the talent or are performing under expectation. If you are hustling and it is not a matter of conditioning or missing time due to legal matters, they will never publicly scold you.

IUf I was them I would put Holdman first too. You want to have either Rocky or Clemons win the job, not annoint them. That rarely works. And if Holdman can get an ego boost by workjing with the starting squad and perform better then last year so be it (although I have to say at this point I doubt it).

What it comes down to is this, IMO. Rocky needs to show he can grasp the GW system and be physically able to start on opening day or Clemons needs to show he is an all around LB and can pave the way for Rocky's eventual starting (ala Joe Smith for Lavar), or Warrick stays on the team and Arch is used in support on the weak side more often then not.
I'm honored...my good buddy Smoak has given me the title "Dr. J"...bgforever has given me the title "Magic Man"...and now you have given me the title "Reverend"!!
Thank you! It's a lot to live up to but I'll do my best...;)

WLB is going to be a spot where GW's coaching skills will really be put to the test in the first half of the season, until Rocky/someone shows they are capable of being the starter.

[smoak]

:sfight: alright Smoaky you and me are gonna fight if you keep talking like that!!!

CNY (to Lumsden) - I wish I could quit you.

:lol1:

You know I am kidding, but you have to admit it would make for a great movie.

[skinfan43]

CNY (to Lumsden) - I wish I could quit you.

:lol1:

You know I am kidding, but you have to admit it would make for a great movie.
LMAO!

Here's Times-Dispatch article today that says some stuff about Holdman, but also has two great additions, IMO:

#1) WHITE ON WHITE

Washington wore white jerseys and white pants in a 24-9 win over the St. Louis Rams last season that snapped a three-game skid while starting a six-game winning streak in the same uniforms.

Will the Redskins start the 2006 season wearing white on white?

"We'll probably start off where we left off," Washington coach Joe Gibbs said. "Things that we can do like that, I'm willing to go with."

Gibbs says he leaves uniform choices up to the players. Given the superstitious nature of athletes, more than likely, fans can count on seeing Washington in all white for it's Sept. 11 season opener at home against Minnesota.

I'm all for it, was a huge fan of the white-on-white's late last season!

#2) LINE OF THE DAY

Rookie free agent cornerback Chijioke Onyenegecha of Oklahoma missed an assignment Sunday during team drills and received a tongue lashing from Williams.

"Bobby Stoops has a hell of a lot more patience than I do," Williams screamed.

Stoops is the head coach of the Sooners. «

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/dp-54010sy0jun19,0,2737224.story?coll=dp-sports-local

[shally]

If they are really high on Havner, Clemons may be in deep trouble. I don't see all 4 making the team. If Holdman and McIntosh are locks, then you have Simon, Havner, and Clemons left. This will become a special teams battle. Who will impress Danny Smith more?

whenever they start moving a players position it is not a good thing..

[shally]

[quote=smoak]Maybe it is b/c I don't pay attention as much, but I feel like you mention Lumsden 3x more than anyone else??? Is it possible you are hiding a man-crush? I have to say that this smells like a case of "methinks thou doth protest too much".[quote]

:sfight: alright Smoaky you and me are gonna fight if you keep talking like that!!!

Anyways Rev. Skinfan43 has more Jesse in him then all of us!!!



I think someone else mentioned in this thread Clifton Smith froim last year. How all the coaches were praising him in minicamp and he was cut early in training camp. What I have noticed about this coaching staff is they go out of their way to priaise the athletes under their care to the press and really say absolutely nothing bad about guys who are out there trying to work, even if they don't have the talent or are performing under expectation. If you are hustling and it is not a matter of conditioning or missing time due to legal matters, they will never publicly scold you.

IUf I was them I would put Holdman first too. You want to have either Rocky or Clemons win the job, not annoint them. That rarely works. And if Holdman can get an ego boost by workjing with the starting squad and perform better then last year so be it (although I have to say at this point I doubt it).

What it comes down to is this, IMO. Rocky needs to show he can grasp the GW system and be physically able to start on opening day or Clemons needs to show he is an all around LB and can pave the way for Rocky's eventual starting (ala Joe Smith for Lavar), or Warrick stays on the team and Arch is used in support on the weak side more often then not.

that rings true.. i was surprised at how quickly smith slipped off radar last year. still, i do not like the odds for clemons now. especially since he was primarily a pass rusher last year, so he is getting put to a spot where he would like rush the passer even less.. seems like he is being asked to pplay against his strengths.. we will see, but he cannot be too happy right now..

[redwolf1218]

might end up with clemons and havner fighting over the same spot..
yep it sounds like Havner and Clemons will be fighting for the strong side. last year they taught McCune the middle and this year they are teaching him the weak side. they are teaching Simon the middle. i've heard lots of praise for Havner, McCune, Rocky and Simon...not much for Campbell and Clemons. honestly if everyone progresses well and stays healthy it doesnt look good for Campbell and Clemons.

[Red Bear]

clemons is an unproven player and not really that good at rushing the passer either, not as people would seem to think he is. i wouldnt cry if we lost clemons. if he was such a good pass rusher then his sack totals would be up, its not like he has a lot of pressures/hurries/knockdowns either, normally i see him struggling to get to the QB in games. he played in 14 games last year as a pass rusher and only got 2 sacks, pretty poor pass rushing in my eyes. perhaps thats not his strength and the coaches see him better suited for another position

[redskinz#1fan]

clemons is an unproven player and not really that good at rushing the passer either, not as people would seem to think he is. i wouldnt cry if we lost clemons. if he was such a good pass rusher then his sack totals would be up, its not like he has a lot of pressures/hurries/knockdowns either, normally i see him struggling to get to the QB in games. he played in 14 games last year as a pass rusher and only got 2 sacks, pretty poor pass rushing in my eyes. perhaps thats not his strength and the coaches see him better suited for another position


You have to remember that he didn't see the field that often, it's not like he was on the field every down. With that said, he won't make the squad with just his pass rushing ability, he needs to play an all around game!

[BandWagon]

dont be too quick to judge, and i say that to myself also. many of us put down Brunell until his 2nd year here. Holdman has overcome injuries and he might have returned to top form. he was thrown to the wolves last year, but he's had a year in the system now and he's been studying. he's not old, yet he has experience and a history with the defensive coaches.
Exactly...I posted in another thread I thought he could be the comeback player of the year. I never went back and looked at the responses for fear of my life. Brunell was the example I gave too. He was a solid linebacker in Chicago, was coming off an injury, and the coaches said he was thinking too much out there...indicative of a lack of comfort in the system. To be too quick to judge...I ditto that.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Exactly...I posted in another thread I thought he could be the comeback player of the year. I never went back and looked at the responses for fear of my life. Brunell was the example I gave too. He was a solid linebacker in Chicago, was coming off an injury, and the coaches said he was thinking too much out there...indicative of a lack of comfort in the system. To be too quick to judge...I ditto that.
:lol1: Things can get pretty rough around here....

[shally]

Exactly...I posted in another thread I thought he could be the comeback player of the year. I never went back and looked at the responses for fear of my life. Brunell was the example I gave too. He was a solid linebacker in Chicago, was coming off an injury, and the coaches said he was thinking too much out there...indicative of a lack of comfort in the system. To be too quick to judge...I ditto that.


i like his attitude.. but then, i liked mike barrow's attitude also and it never turned into anything...

[Red Bear]

You have to remember that he didn't see the field that often, it's not like he was on the field every down. With that said, he won't make the squad with just his pass rushing ability, he needs to play an all around game!

i think clemons coming on the field just to pass rush was easy for other teams to key in on. maybe that could have limited his effectiveness. but you have to admit it, he hasnt shown us much of anything.

[shally]

i think clemons coming on the field just to pass rush was easy for other teams to key in on. maybe that could have limited his effectiveness. but you have to admit it, he hasnt shown us much of anything.

it was too bad for him that when he finally got a chance last season at the end, he hurt his knee and got put on IR..

this is likely his last chance to cement a position, but it is going to have to include run stopping ability-- something he has yet to show he has..

[DCassain21]

terrible news... i feel like crying when holdman steps on the field:cry:

[redwolf1218]

terrible news... i feel like crying when holdman steps on the field:cry:
if he returns to probowl form from his Chicago days 4 years ago then we will have a real steal. he is still young and could return to his prime.

[DCassain21]

if he returns to probowl form from his Chicago days 4 years ago then we will have a real steal. he is still young and could return to his prime.
you can really 'what if' all day but what if he didn't get any better and cant held in run support to save his life

[redwolf1218]

you can really 'what if' all day but what if he didn't get any better and cant held in run support to save his life
you and many others here have a legitimate concern, i'll give you that, but the glass is either half empty or half full. the coaches seem to think he can return to form.

[DCassain21]

you and many others here have a legitimate concern, i'll give you that, but the glass is either half empty or half full. the coaches seem to think he can return to form.
half full is always a better of looking at but even if i wanted to its still half empty to me

[redwolf1218]

half full is always a better of looking at but even if i wanted to its still half empty to me
the coaches seem to think it's half full, from the articles and quotes i've been reading. he might be the next Mike Barrow and stink it up, or he might be the next Mark Brunell and light it up.

[DCassain21]

the coaches seem to think it's half full, from the articles and quotes i've been reading. he might be the next Mike Barrow and stink it up, or he might be the next Mark Brunell and light it up.
lets hope its the second one

[redwolf1218]

lets hope its the second one
if so, then he's a steal at the vet minimum. if not, then Rocky will have to be ready to go.

[DCassain21]

if so, then he's a steal at the vet minimum. if not, then Rocky will have to be ready to go.
well i hope he can at least be a steal until rocky is ready

[shally]

lets hope its the second one

that's what i am thinking.. he is either going to be very good or just as rotten as last year... one good thing is that he knows he was rotten last year

[DCassain21]

je doesn't even have to be a superstar just as long as he can do a more then decent job he will be fine and so will the D

[IowaSkinsFan]

More indication that Holdman will be the starter when the season opens:

Rookie LB Rocky McIntosh is the only credible alternative now that LB Chris Clemons has been switched to the strongside behind LB Marcus Washington.

That's from KFFL. Given GW penchant for easing rookies into the lineup, moving Clemons to the strong side really only leaves McCune and Khary Campbell as legitimate threads to start on the weakside, unless Spencer Havner switched sides with Clemons.

[HollywoodKolt]

Switching Clemons to the strong side is odd, maybe Holdman is this years Brunell. But I don't know, the dude just looked awful last season. If he's good this year then more power to him, if not I'm excited to see Rocky at the will.

[skinsfan1]

dont be too quick to judge, and i say that to myself also. many of us put down Brunell until his 2nd year here. Holdman has overcome injuries and he might have returned to top form. he was thrown to the wolves last year, but he's had a year in the system now and he's been studying. he's not old, yet he has experience and a history with the defensive coaches.


lets give him another chance at least through preseason maybe he has turned it around or maybe taylor jacobs showed him how to look good in practice..( example..... hey warrick work your butt off in camp get your checks and take the games off...thats what works for me.. signed tj)

[shally]

Switching Clemons to the strong side is odd, maybe Holdman is this years Brunell. But I don't know, the dude just looked awful last season. If he's good this year then more power to him, if not I'm excited to see Rocky at the will.

it would seem to bode well for holdman and rocky and poorly for clemons the way things are being described...

it is never a good thing when they start moving a player around due to his performance.. unlike marshall who moved because of team need...

[FanFromArizona]

More indication that Holdman will be the starter when the season opens:



That's from KFFL. Given GW penchant for easing rookies into the lineup, moving Clemons to the strong side really only leaves McCune and Khary Campbell as legitimate threads to start on the weakside, unless Spencer Havner switched sides with Clemons.


What does the depth chart show for the WLB and SLB? I was surprised to see Clemons switched over to the SAM....how many do we list for the SAM? It is definitely unbalanced in favor of the SLB, I can only think of Holdman and Rocky and McCune at the Will.

[Red Bear]

i can see the training camp battle being clemons vs havner to be marcus washingtons backup on the strongside. maybe the coaches wanted to get someone with NFL game experience to battle havner. cause really i dont even know who was listed as marcus washingtons backup last year. if washington were to get injured we would definately need a serviceable backup that can play, they would have big shoes to fill if that happened. so maybe its not as negative for clemons as some of you might think it is. maybe the coaches have spotted something that see him better suited on the strong side. marcus washington gets a fair amount of sacks on the strongside, so maybe they could find some packages for clemons to use the pass rushing ability they see in him on the strongside, perhaps in the 3-4 packages williams uses from time to time with washington in the middle with marshall on those plays.

[MONK_in_HOF]

dont be too quick to judge, and i say that to myself also. many of us put down Brunell until his 2nd year here. Holdman has overcome injuries and he might have returned to top form. he was thrown to the wolves last year, but he's had a year in the system now and he's been studying. he's not old, yet he has experience and a history with the defensive coaches.

Actually I couldnt agree more with this line of thinking...Holdman had a much more serious knee injury to overcome than say...I dunno...LaVar. I think that the injury coupled with being in a new, more aggresive D had a lot to do with his lackluster performance last season. He might just suprise us all but IMHO the spot will be Rockys in the longrun, probably before seasons end however if Holdman can return to the form he showed in Chicago then it will only help us on the defensive side of the ball should injuries rear their ugly head.

I agree with both these posts. Holdman has been abused on this site, but nobody ever offers his prior injuries or system learning curve as possible reasons for his lackluster play. While I don't think he played well last year, at least our D as a whole didn't drop off much while he was in. Hopefully another year in the system and one more year of conditioning on his knee will help him improve, but if not at least he won't whine and consume a gross amount of cap space while he is sucking.
Edit: I am not holding my breath on a major improvement, but at least the guy seems like he has the right attitude.

[PA Skins Girl]

What does the depth chart show for the WLB and SLB? I was surprised to see Clemons switched over to the SAM....how many do we list for the SAM? It is definitely unbalanced in favor of the SLB, I can only think of Holdman and Rocky and McCune at the Will.
Redskins.com doesnt issue a depth chart in the offseason and I wouldnt trust any other source during the offseason either. NFL.com is so outdated for our depth chart right now. They have Ramsey and Arrington still listed and the dont even show Cooley anywhere. Pisses me off.

[Red Bear]

Redskins.com doesnt issue a depth chart in the offseason and I wouldnt trust any other source during the offseason either. NFL.com is so outdated for our depth chart right now. They have Ramsey and Arrington still listed and the dont even show Cooley anywhere. Pisses me off.

that sucks about nfl.com. i emailed nflplayers.com one day about taking players who are no longer with the team off the redskins roster they had listed

[FanFromArizona]

Redskins.com doesnt issue a depth chart in the offseason and I wouldnt trust any other source during the offseason either. NFL.com is so outdated for our depth chart right now. They have Ramsey and Arrington still listed and the dont even show Cooley anywhere. Pisses me off.


Alright, let's have our own unofficial depth chart, let's set our OWN depth chart:

9 Linebackers:
98 Marshall, Lemar LB 6-2 227 5 Michigan State 12-17-1976
59 McCune, Robert LB 6-1 240 1 Louisville 03-09-1979
52 McIntosh, Roger LB 6-2 231 R Miami 11-15-1982
57 Holdman, Warrick LB 6-1 235 7 Texas A&M 11-22-1975
51 Havner, Spencer LB 6-3 237 R UCLA 02-02-1983
58 Clemons, Chris LB 6-3 234 3 Georgia 10-30-1981
50 Campbell, Khary LB 6-3 250 4 Bowling Green 04-04-1979
54 Simon, Kevin LB 5-10 235 R Tennessee 06-12-1983
53 Washington, Marcus LB 6-3 247 6 Auburn 09-17-1977


SLB: Washington, Clemons, Havner
MLB: Marshall, Campbell, Simon
WLB: Holdman, McIntosh, McCune


Is this what we look like[unofficially]?

[skins111111]

Holdman starts and Rocky finishes

[PA Skins Girl]

SLB: Washington, Clemons, Havner
MLB: Marshall, Campbell, Simon
WLB: Holdman, McIntosh, McCune


Is this what we look like[unofficially]?
Probably yes. But thats not to say that Clemons and Campbell are shue-ins for the final roster.

[FanFromArizona]

Probably yes. But thats not to say that Clemons and Campbell are shue-ins for the final roster.

I think this our depth chart as of this moment, training camp will determine the results for the regular season.
I think we will see all of these on our team in some form or another.....Simon gets placed on Practice Squad, and the other 8 making the team.

[PA Skins Girl]

I think this our depth chart as of this moment, training camp will determine the results for the regular season.
I think we will see all of these on our team in some form or another.....Simon gets placed on Practice Squad, and the other 8 making the team.
It would be difficult to carry 8 LB. I'm thinking 7 but we'll see.

[shally]

It would be difficult to carry 8 LB. I'm thinking 7 but we'll see.

i think 7 is more likely.. but you never know... plus, let us see what injuries have to say about the final roster

[redwolf1218]

Probably yes. But thats not to say that Clemons and Campbell are shue-ins for the final roster.
sounds like the battle for 2 spots is between 4 guys: Clemons, Campbell, Simon and Havner. they are teaching Simon the middle so it appears he has to beat out Campbell, and Havner has to beat out Clemons. i am not impressed with Clemons or Campbell, so i hope Simon and Havner prove to be better. i think they both would have been drafted much higher without their injury history, and then we never would have had a chance to get them. we are lucky to have them here.

[CNYSkinFan]

Probably yes. But thats not to say that Clemons and Campbell are shue-ins for the final roster.

No one but Washington Marshall and McIntosh are shoe-ins at this point

This is about right as far as I can tell.


SLB: Washington, Clemons, Havner
MLB: Marshall, Campbell, Simon
WLB: Holdman, McIntosh, McCune



It plays out like this for me:

There are 6 definite roster spots, one for each starter at the three LB positions and one for each backup. @ starting spots (Marshall and Washington) are locked down.

Clemons and Havner battle for the backup SAM, winner gets a roster spot.

Simon and Campbell battle for the backup MIKE, Winner gets a roster spot.

McIntosh and Holdman battle for the starting WILL. If Holdman wins, he gets a roster spot. IF not he will be cut and McCune gets the backup WIll Roster spot.

If Holdman wins McIntosh gets the backup spot automatically.

The two or three losers in the above battles will probably battle for one roster spot, best special teams player gets it (which is why Holdman gets cut if he is not the starter because of his lack of special teams play).

Havner, Simon, and McCune do have the Practice Squad safety net to fall back on. Campbell, Clemons, & Holdman do not. In some ways that means the ties might go to the vets as the coaches will try to stash young guys on the PS.

I guess it is possible we keep 8 Lbers but I am not so sure we do since we will be keeping 5 Wrs instead of 4 this year IMO

[redwolf1218]

The two or three losers in the above battles will probably battle for one roster spot, best special teams player gets it (which is why Holdman gets cut if he is not the starter because of his lack of special teams play).

Havner, Simon, and McCune do have the Practice Squad safety net to fall back on. Campbell, Clemons, & Holdman do not. In some ways that means the ties might go to the vets as the coaches will try to stash young guys on the PS.
good assessment. even though i'm not impressed with Campbell, i have to admit he seems to be a good special teams player. i doubt Havner and Simon will last long on the PS, i think we will lose them forever if they end up there.

[smoak]

I agree with both these posts. Holdman has been abused on this site, but nobody ever offers his prior injuries or system learning curve as possible reasons for his lackluster play. While I don't think he played well last year, at least our D as a whole didn't drop off much while he was in. Hopefully another year in the system and one more year of conditioning on his knee will help him improve, but if not at least he won't whine and consume a gross amount of cap space while he is sucking.
Edit: I am not holding my breath on a major improvement, but at least the guy seems like he has the right attitude.

I am one of Holdman's biggest critics, and the defense absolutely dropped with him in there. Tatum Bell, Priest Holmes, and Tiki Barber KILLED us with Holdman in the lineup. thankfully other backs were not as talented and didn't do any permanent damage. Lets look at Holdman's per game tackle numbers:

CHI 0 (Yes, Zero as in Nada)
DAL 2
SEA 1
DEN 4
KC 2
SF 1
NYG 1

He averaged 1.57 tackles per start last season, and only compiled 16 tackles total!!!!!! That is absolutely unacceptable (IMO).

That said, I have faith in the coaching staff and he will be entering year 2. Hopefully there will be improvement, but lets not hide from the fact that Holdman was part of the reason our defense was atrociouis in a bunch of games early on. It wasn't until he was replaced in the lineup that the defense started to gel and dominate down the stretch.

[danny's stogie]

SLB: Washington, Clemons, Havner
MLB: Marshall, Campbell, Simon
WLB: Holdman, McIntosh, McCune


I think it might be a touch more complicated than that. I'd bet that Holdman, in addition to starting at Will, is first in line to back up Marshall in the middle. I can't imagine GW allowing Campbell or Simon to be responsible for signal calling.

[redwolf1218]

I think it might be a touch more complicated than that. I'd bet that Holdman, in addition to starting at Will, is first in line to back up Marshall in the middle. I can't imagine GW allowing Campbell or Simon to be responsible for signal calling.
one report said that Simon was very vocal in calling the plays, and he was showing impressive leadership qualities already. i agree with you about Williams not throwing him in there right away, but from i've been reading it sounds like he's picking it up quickly.

http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=17496

The middle linebacker eyed the offensive set before him, and then barked out an adjustment at the line of scrimmage. He signaled to a safety to move closer, in anticipation of a running play.
From a distance, it appeared that Lemar Marshall, the Redskins' starting middle linebacker last season, had the defense well in hand during the OTA practice.

Except that it wasn't Marshall making the call.

It was rookie linebacker Kevin Simon, the Redskins' seventh-round draft choice out of Tennessee, who had stepped in for Marshall.

In the early going of his NFL career, Simon has already established himself as a vocal presence on the practice fields at Redskins Park.

Simon displays unusual confidence for a rookie. He calls out defensive adjustments--as required in Gregg Williams' aggressive schemes--and shouts out words of encouragement to teammates.

[CNYSkinFan]

good assessment. even though i'm not impressed with Campbell, i have to admit he seems to be a good special teams player. i doubt Havner and Simon will last long on the PS, i think we will lose them forever if they end up there.

We always say that about our low end talent but they rarely get poached by other teams. Zak Keasay is more of an exception to the rule since he made the actual roster and then was cut to make way for injury replacements and the worst team in the league picked him up. Not many of our training camp cuts made actual NFL rosters over the last few years.

And since most players will want to stick with the team that they were with in training camp they will refuse other PS offers and stay with us ...if we want them.

[redwolf1218]

We always say that about our low end talent but they rarely get poached by other teams. Zak Keasay is more of an exception to the rule since he made the actual roster and then was cut to make way for injury replacements and the worst team in the league picked him up. Not many of our training camp cuts made actual NFL rosters over the last few years.

And since most players will want to stick with the team that they were with in training camp they will refuse other PS offers and stay with us ...if we want them.
you probably already know this, but during the season, another team can only claim PS players onto their roster, not a lateral move to another PS. i havent been impressed with our low end talent as much in the past as i am now. i like your article about our past drafting woes, but i think that is improving. i always think about Ron Warner, who i liked, but he didnt even make another roster. sometimes we know these guys as fans but they arent really all that great. i wonder if guys like Clemons, Campbell, Evans, Boschetti, or even Rock Cartwright would even make another team's roster.

[CNYSkinFan]

you probably already know this, but during the season, another team can only claim PS players onto their roster, not a lateral move to another PS. i havent been impressed with our low end talent as much in the past as i am now. i like your article about our past drafting woes, but i think that is improving. i always think about Ron Warner, who i liked, but he didnt even make another roster. sometimes we know these guys as fans but they arent really all that great. i wonder if guys like Clemons, Campbell, Evans, Boschetti, or even Rock Cartwright would even make another team's roster.
I think Evans is a lock to make other team rosters as a backup. Clemons, RTock, and Campbell would need the right situation. Boschetti won't be on our roster for very long and I doubt he will make it anywhere else.

[danny's stogie]

you probably already know this, but during the season, another team can only claim PS players onto their roster, not a lateral move to another PS. i havent been impressed with our low end talent as much in the past as i am now. i like your article about our past drafting woes, but i think that is improving. i always think about Ron Warner, who i liked, but he didnt even make another roster. sometimes we know these guys as fans but they arent really all that great. i wonder if guys like Clemons, Campbell, Evans, Boschetti, or even Rock Cartwright would even make another team's roster.

There isn't a team in the league that doesn't have a bunch of scrubs filling out their roster. Just remember that when thinking about the last ten players on the team, they're just as bad as everyone else's bottom ten. The only advantage that Ryan Fowler (Cowboy backup ILB) has over a guy like McCune is that Fowler has spent the whole offseason working with the Cowboys, knows their playbook, their system, and is more ready to step in and play on a moments' notice.

Edit: and I have mixed feelings when fans on this board gripe about depth. Oline depth is a huge concern for many people here, myself included, I wish the Skins had one quality veteran backup who could step in at a variety of positions, but pragmatically, very, very few teams have quality Oline depth, in fact, the majority of teams can't even find 5 quality starters.

[redwolf1218]

I think Evans is a lock to make other team rosters as a backup. Clemons, RTock, and Campbell would need the right situation. Boschetti won't be on our roster for very long and I doubt he will make it anywhere else.
yea i think the fact that they brought in 3 pretty impressive d-tackles spells doom for someone, probably Boschetti. same thing at linebacker, bringing in Rocky, Simon and Havner might spell doom for someone, probably either Clemons or Campbell. i think the idea is, either those guys are gone and replaced by younger talent, or the competition lights a fire under their rear and they elevate their level of play.

[CNYSkinFan]

There isn't a team in the league that doesn't have a bunch of scrubs filling out their roster. Just remember that when thinking about the last ten players on the team, they're just as bad as everyone else's bottom ten. The only advantage that Ryan Fowler (Cowboy backup ILB) has over a guy like McCune is that Fowler has spent the whole offseason working with the Cowboys, knows their playbook, their system, and is more ready to step in and play on a moments' notice.

Edit: and I have mixed feelings when fans on this board gripe about depth. Oline depth is a huge concern for many people here, myself included, I wish the Skins had one quality veteran backup who could step in at a variety of positions, but pragmatically, very, very few teams have quality Oline depth, in fact, the majority of teams can't even find 5 quality starters.

A salient point, which is why it is important Molinaro stepps up his game. Late round picks are neccessary for good depth. Mark WIlson and Molinaor where supposed to provide that depth in the 2004 draft but only Molinaro remains and so far was passed over when he had chances to contribute the last two years. Hopefully Lefotu can develop into a solid contributor this year as well.

[danny's stogie]

A salient point, which is why it is important Molinaro stepps up his game. Late round picks are neccessary for good depth. Mark WIlson and Molinaor where supposed to provide that depth in the 2004 draft but only Molinaro remains and so far was passed over when he had chances to contribute the last two years. Hopefully Lefotu can develop into a solid contributor this year as well.

I actually take a glass half approach to Molinaro. The fact that he's still on the roster is impressive to me and I consider it a good pick. The vast majority of 6th and 7th rounders aren't with their original team, let alone still in the league, 3 years after getting drafted. Having Wilson make the roster also would have just defied the odds.

When did Molinaro have a chance to play? You couldn't expect him to play for Jansen in 04 when he was just a rookie and last year both Jansen and Samuels were healthy. Are you refering to when Randy went down, then Ray Brown? There's a big difference between playing guard and playing tackle.

[redwolf1218]

I actually take a glass half approach to Molinaro. The fact that he's still on the roster is impressive to me and I consider it a good pick. The vast majority of 6th and 7th rounders aren't with their original team, let alone still in the league, 3 years after getting drafted. Having Wilson make the roster also would have just defied the odds.

When did Molinaro have a chance to play? You couldn't expect him to play for Jansen in 04 when he was just a rookie and last year both Jansen and Samuels were healthy. Are you refering to when Randy went down, then Ray Brown? There's a big difference between playing guard and playing tackle.
it scared me bad that we had to plug in a 42 yr old and then Raymer. that showed we had no quality youth that the coaches trusted in there.

[smoak]

I actually take a glass half approach to Molinaro. The fact that he's still on the roster is impressive to me and I consider it a good pick. The vast majority of 6th and 7th rounders aren't with their original team, let alone still in the league, 3 years after getting drafted. Having Wilson make the roster also would have just defied the odds.

When did Molinaro have a chance to play? You couldn't expect him to play for Jansen in 04 when he was just a rookie and last year both Jansen and Samuels were healthy. Are you refering to when Randy went down, then Ray Brown? There's a big difference between playing guard and playing tackle.

Exactly. To counter CNY's opinion that we don't draft well, after final cuts (I'm guessing Molinaro makes it), I am going to do a team by team comparison of who they drafted and where they are today starting in 2004. Yes, we've missed on some sedcond day picks, but so have all teams. At least that is my theory... we'll see.

[CNYSkinFan]

I actually take a glass half approach to Molinaro. The fact that he's still on the roster is impressive to me and I consider it a good pick. The vast majority of 6th and 7th rounders aren't with their original team, let alone still in the league, 3 years after getting drafted. Having Wilson make the roster also would have just defied the odds.

When did Molinaro have a chance to play? You couldn't expect him to play for Jansen in 04 when he was just a rookie and last year both Jansen and Samuels were healthy. Are you refering to when Randy went down, then Ray Brown? There's a big difference between playing guard and playing tackle.

Well Molinaro was billed as a guy who could play G and T (it's in his official bio (http://www.redskins.com/team/profile.jsp?id=1263)at Redskins.com). All I am saying is that in 2004 we went with Ray Brown a 40 year old guard to play Tackle full time when Jansen went down and Wilson actually subbed in for him on occasion when he got a stinger over Molinaro. Then in 2005 when Randy and Ray went down we went with a center to play in Seattle. Even Redskins.com did an article earlier this year talking about this is Molinaro's time to step up and used the incidents of Molinaro being passed over in 04 and 05 as examples of missed opportunities for him.

[CNYSkinFan]

Exactly. To counter CNY's opinion that we don't draft well, after final cuts (I'm guessing Molinaro makes it), I am going to do a team by team comparison of who they drafted and where they are today starting in 2004. Yes, we've missed on some sedcond day picks, but so have all teams. At least that is my theory... we'll see.

I accept your challenge :Padawan: , but we need to come up with some kind of criteria. Just being on a roster to me does not constitute a good pick, they need to contribute, which is admittedly more subjective and harder to quantify. But just looking at roster spots could be eye opening for either one of us I imagine.

[danny's stogie]

Exactly. To counter CNY's opinion that we don't draft well, after final cuts (I'm guessing Molinaro makes it), I am going to do a team by team comparison of who they drafted and where they are today starting in 2004. Yes, we've missed on some sedcond day picks, but so have all teams. At least that is my theory... we'll see.

I know its sacriligious to cite him as a source, but Peter King's column this week has retrospective draft grades for the 2001 draft. Read through it and you'll be suprised by how few players drafted on the second day are doing anything of note in the NFL.

[redwolf1218]

Exactly. To counter CNY's opinion that we don't draft well, after final cuts (I'm guessing Molinaro makes it), I am going to do a team by team comparison of who they drafted and where they are today starting in 2004. Yes, we've missed on some sedcond day picks, but so have all teams. At least that is my theory... we'll see.
i think it's also important to factor in the free agents and trades. we have as former 1st round picks on defense, Wynn, Daniels, Springs, Rogers, Taylor and Arch...Griffin, Marcus and Rocky were high 2nd rounders...then on offense there's Samuels, Portis, Moss (1st round), Jansen (high 2nd)...it would have taken a long time to do that through the draft alone.

[smoak]

I accept your challenge :Padawan: , but we need to come up with some kind of criteria. Just being on a roster to me does not constitute a good pick, they need to contribute, which is admittedly more subjective and harder to quantify. But just looking at roster spots could be eye opening for either one of us I imagine.

I am just planning to gauge players based on three criteria:

Currently on the team who drafted him
Currently in the NFL with another team
Currently out of the NFL

The reason is that it is very difficult to say who contributes unless you REALLY know a team. IMO (and you may disagree) anyone who dresses consistently is contributing. McCune played special teams down the stretch and I think in 2004 Molinaro went in for a goal line stand. It just seems too much of a grey area to judge how much they contribute.

It'll be fun to see where we rank though given that we've at least had one bad miss under Gibbs (Newberry). The reason I wanted to wait until after camp is because Wilson is currently on the Vikings, but may not be after final cuts.

[smoak]

i think it's also important to factor in the free agents and trades. we have as former 1st round picks on defense, Wynn, Daniels, Springs, Rogers, Taylor and Arch...Griffin, Marcus and Rocky were high 2nd rounders...then on offense there's Samuels, Portis, Moss (1st round), Jansen (high 2nd)...it would have taken a long time to do that through the draft alone.

Well, what I am hoping to prove is that when the Redskins make a pick, it is not any worse than when other teams pick. It'll be more difficult b/c we have a smaller sample size, but I don't agree with how horrible CNY thinks we are at drafting on Day 2. I actually feel all teams struggle b/c there is a lot of garbage out there. For every Tom Brady, there are 25 Sage Rosefels.

I know its sacriligious to cite him as a source, but Peter King's column this week has retrospective draft grades for the 2001 draft. Read through it and you'll be suprised by how few players drafted on the second day are doing anything of note in the NFL.

Exactly!!, and the only reason I am starting in '04 is that it isn't fair to lump Gibbs in with the circus that was Steve Spurrier. That and it'll take hours to track downall the players.

[redwolf1218]

Well, what I am hoping to prove is that when the Redskins make a pick, it is not any worse than when other teams pick. It'll be more difficult b/c we have a smaller sample size, but I don't agree with how horrible CNY thinks we are at drafting on Day 2. I actually feel all teams struggle b/c there is a lot of garbage out there. For every Tom Brady, there are 25 Sage Rosefels.



Exactly!!, and the only reason I am starting in '04 is that it isn't fair to lump Gibbs in with the circus that was Steve Spurrier. That and it'll take hours to track downall the players.
the sample size will still work the same for an average, but the low sample size is indicative of trades, which results in less needs, and less roster spots available for a rookie to really have a chance to make it. so the results will be skewed and the stats will be misleading because of the differing variables.

[CNYSkinFan]

Well, what I am hoping to prove is that when the Redskins make a pick, it is not any worse than when other teams pick. It'll be more difficult b/c we have a smaller sample size, but I don't agree with how horrible CNY thinks we are at drafting on Day 2. I actually feel all teams struggle b/c there is a lot of garbage out there. For every Tom Brady, there are 25 Sage Rosefels.



Exactly!!, and the only reason I am starting in '04 is that it isn't fair to lump Gibbs in with the circus that was Steve Spurrier. That and it'll take hours to track downall the players.

I agree with that!!! However going back to 2000 could be relevant since most of the time it was Cerrato and Snyder making the picks, not the coaching staff, but that changed under Gibbs.

McCune and Molinaro have their judgment days coming this year. If they make it this year then I will not consider them busts (espescially McCune). If not then they might be labelled that, espescially if they are not on other teams rosters.

[shally]

I agree with that!!! However going back to 2000 could be relevant since most of the time it was Cerrato and Snyder making the picks, not the coaching staff, but that changed under Gibbs.

McCune and Molinaro have their judgment days coming this year. If they make it this year then I will not consider them busts (espescially McCune). If not then they might be labelled that, espescially if they are not on other teams rosters.


agree that we need production from the bottom of the draft... something we have not had in some time now..

[danny's stogie]

Well, what I am hoping to prove is that when the Redskins make a pick, it is not any worse than when other teams pick. It'll be more difficult b/c we have a smaller sample size, but I don't agree with how horrible CNY thinks we are at drafting on Day 2. I actually feel all teams struggle b/c there is a lot of garbage out there. For every Tom Brady, there are 25 Sage Rosefels.

One thing that the article points out is that even the Patriots struggled in the second day of that draft. I believe, off the top of my head, that they didn't draft a single productive player past the second round of the 01 draft.

Tom Brady, and the oversaturation of draft coverage -- Mel Kiper going ape about a TE from University of Podunk drafted in the 6th round --, have really warped the public's perception of the draft as whole.



Exactly!!, and the only reason I am starting in '04 is that it isn't fair to lump Gibbs in with the circus that was Steve Spurrier. That and it'll take hours to track downall the players.

...and considering that only a handful of late round picks have made an impact since then and that in excess of 130 players are drafted on the second day (probably 150 or so when adding in all the comp picks) I'd guess that the odds of a 2nd day draftee being a successful pick hover at around 5-10%.

So going back to the original point of this whole spiel, I would be absolutely shocked if Holdman gets booted from the team in favor of a guy like Campbell.

[shally]

One thing that the article points out is that even the Patriots struggled in the second day of that draft. I believe, off the top of my head, that they didn't draft a single productive player past the second round of the 01 draft.

Tom Brady, and the oversaturation of draft coverage -- Mel Kiper going ape about a TE from University of Podunk drafted in the 6th round --, have really warped the public's perception of the draft as whole.





...and considering that only a handful of late round picks have made an impact since then and that in excess of 130 players are drafted on the second day (probably 150 or so when adding in all the comp picks) I'd guess that the odds of a 2nd day draftee being a successful pick hover at around 5-10%.

So going back to the original point of this whole spiel, I would be absolutely shocked if Holdman gets booted from the team in favor of a guy like Campbell.


the one edge that campbell truly has is that he is a killer special teams player. holdman does not play special teams-- or perhaps he will need to change..

[CNYSkinFan]

So going back to the original point of this whole spiel, I would be absolutely shocked if Holdman gets booted from the team in favor of a guy like Campbell.

But Campbell plays special teams and Holdman does not. If the coaches are choosing between Campbell and Holdman it is because Holdman did not get the starting spot at WILL. At that point Campbell's special teams play factors in.

Remember all we are getting is PR and BS out of Redskins.com. They don't want to tip their hat and only will show the press what they want them to see. It is part of the game. One fact though can not be disputed, how they felt about both Campbell and Holdman in March. They gave Campbell a SB of $350K, one of the highest SB for any veteran backup we signed, but gave Holdman a SB of 25K.

In the NFL SB is a true indication of how good a football player the FO thinks you are, not neccessarily the coaching stafrf. But as we know the FO is Gibbs and I take it as an indication of where Campbell and Holdman started out from. Can Holdman outplay him and earn a spot? Sure. However I really think that Holdman is either the starter to groom for Rocky or Rocky starts in Game 1 and Holdman is gone.

[Red Bear]

i think it's also important to factor in the free agents and trades. we have as former 1st round picks on defense, Wynn, Daniels, Springs, Rogers, Taylor and Arch...Griffin, Marcus and Rocky were high 2nd rounders...then on offense there's Samuels, Portis, Moss (1st round), Jansen (high 2nd)...it would have taken a long time to do that through the draft alone.

actually portis was a second round pick

[CNYSkinFan]

the one edge that campbell truly has is that he is a killer special teams player. holdman does not play special teams-- or perhaps he will need to change..

Much like Dmac last year, it may not be an option of that player changing as much as how good they are at special teams play. Dmac kept complaining that he would play special teams if they gave him a shot, but they did not give him a shot because he was not that good at it. Holdman may be in the same boat. I don't think he has ever said he won't play special team,s, he is not a diva. He just may not be that good at it.

[shally]

But Campbell plays special teams and Holdman does not. If the coaches are choosing between Campbell and Holdman it is because Holdman did not get the starting spot at WILL. At that point Campbell's special teams play factors in.

Remember all we are getting is PR and BS out of Redskins.com. They don't want to tip their hat and only will show the press what they want them to see. It is part of the game. One fact though can not be disputed, how they felt about both Campbell and Holdman in March. They gave Campbell a SB of $350K, one of the highest SB for any veteran backup we signed, but gave Holdman a SB of 25K.

In the NFL SB is a true indication of how good a football player the FO thinks you are, not neccessarily the coaching stafrf. But as we know the FO is Gibbs and I take it as an indication of where Campbell and Holdman started out from. Can Holdman outplay him and earn a spot? Sure. However I really think that Holdman is either the starter to groom for Rocky or Rocky starts in Game 1 and Holdman is gone.

your last sentence says it all for me.. holdman either starts, or he is gone.. i cannot see keeping him to be a reserve

[redwolf1218]

actually portis was a second round pick
i forgot. i also forgot where Randy Thomas was drafted.

[danny's stogie]

your last sentence says it all for me.. holdman either starts, or he is gone.. i cannot see keeping him to be a reserve

I'm sorry, but I can't see the Skins, with their extreme emphasis on acquiring and starting veteran players, going into the season with only 2 veteran linebackers on the squad and a bunch of players that combine to exactly zero games starting NFL experience. Even if Rocky takes the job sooner than expected Holdman still provides valuable veteran experience at multiple linebacking positions and the only way I see him not making the team are a) physically he's busted or b) the Skins sign a suprise cut to take his place.

[CNYSkinFan]

I'm sorry, but I can't see the Skins, with their extreme emphasis on acquiring and starting veteran players, going into the season with only 2 veteran linebackers on the squad and a bunch of players that combine to exactly zero games starting NFL experience. Even if Rocky takes the job sooner than expected Holdman still provides valuable veteran experience at multiple linebacking positions and the only way I see him not making the team are a) physically he's busted or b) the Skins sign a suprise cut to take his place.
But I think it will be a telling sign that Holdman can not win the starting job over McIntosh a rookie with an injury, espescially considering GW's history on rookie starters.

[shally]

I'm sorry, but I can't see the Skins, with their extreme emphasis on acquiring and starting veteran players, going into the season with only 2 veteran linebackers on the squad and a bunch of players that combine to exactly zero games starting NFL experience. Even if Rocky takes the job sooner than expected Holdman still provides valuable veteran experience at multiple linebacking positions and the only way I see him not making the team are a) physically he's busted or b) the Skins sign a suprise cut to take his place.


you might be right about holdman, but i do not see them signing someone else.. that boomlet about seau was just a bunch of garbage started by his agent.
if campbell looks good on defense, i do not see where he is any worse a backup than holdman.. and he plays special teams.
it may come down to a decision about havner or simon..sure hate to lose a young player just to keep holdman around for insurance

[redwolf1218]

i would not mind it at all if Holdman is a backup to Rocky eventually. he could play there or in the middle. an experienced backup at the league veteran minimum salary is not a bad thing.

[redwolf1218]

you might be right about holdman, but i do not see them signing someone else.. that boomlet about seau was just a bunch of garbage started by his agent.
if campbell looks good on defense, i do not see where he is any worse a backup than holdman.. and he plays special teams.
it may come down to a decision about havner or simon..sure hate to lose a young player just to keep holdman around for insurance
i would rather keep Holdman for insurance and lose a Clemons or a Campbell if Havner and Simon are better than them.

[shally]

i would rather keep Holdman for insurance and lose a Clemons or a Campbell if Havner and Simon are better than them.

agree about havner and simon.. this is a make or break camp for clemons..
as for campbell, i really like the way he covers on special teams.. another guy like thrash or rock whose worth goes beyond his position ability..

[CNYSkinFan]

agree about havner and simon.. this is a make or break camp for clemons..
as for campbell, i really like the way he covers on special teams.. another guy like thrash or rock whose worth goes beyond his position ability..
I think Clemons is in trouble....the position switch after being lauded as the heir apparent for Lavar before the draft and FA is not a good move. Espescially sing the SAM requires more strength then speed, something which Clemons has not shown.

I was high on Clemons awhile back but not so much so now.

[danny's stogie]

But I think it will be a telling sign that Holdman can not win the starting job over McIntosh a rookie with an injury, espescially considering GW's history on rookie starters.

I'm sensing a big time double standard in relation to thoughts on the Oline backups. Everyone's ticked that there aren't any quality veteran Oline backups on the roster, but it's ok to cut Holdman and go with a bunch of late round picks and UDFAs at linebacker.

i would not mind it at all if Holdman is a backup to Rocky eventually. he could play there or in the middle. an experienced backup at the league veteran minimum salary is not a bad thing.

Nail, meet head.

[danny's stogie]

you might be right about holdman, but i do not see them signing someone else.. that boomlet about seau was just a bunch of garbage started by his agent.
if campbell looks good on defense, i do not see where he is any worse a backup than holdman.. and he plays special teams.
it may come down to a decision about havner or simon..sure hate to lose a young player just to keep holdman around for insurance

I don't see it happening either, that's why I said "suprise" cut.

[shally]

I think Clemons is in trouble....the position switch after being lauded as the heir apparent for Lavar before the draft and FA is not a good move. Espescially sing the SAM requires more strength then speed, something which Clemons has not shown.

I was high on Clemons awhile back but not so much so now.

yup.. clemons seems to be following the same trajectory as clifton smith did last year... praise, then slence, then cut...

i think clemons missed the chance when he got hurt last year just when he had the opportunity to start. the fact that we added havner, simon and rocky has to be a reflection on him no matter what is said...
plus the position shift...not looking good..

[CNYSkinFan]

I'm sensing a big time double standard in relation to thoughts on the Oline backups. Everyone's ticked that there aren't any quality veteran Oline backups on the roster, but it's ok to cut Holdman and go with a bunch of late round picks and UDFAs at linebacker.


I have no problem keeping Holdman as a starter if he wins the job. But in my mind if he can not win the job then he has not progressed beyond the Holdman from last year. IF that is the case then giving a UFA like Havner or a late round draft choice like Simon a chance to improve under a whole NFL year is worth the roster spot.

I also don't understand why Campbell is looked upon with such disregard. He made the squad despite having a a cndidate for his roster spot drafted in 05 (McCune) and served as the primary backup for MArshall, who was unproven himself, and getting a significant SB in the offseason. Campbell is no slouch and perhaps can add more to the team then Holdman when you factor in special teams play.

[CNYSkinFan]

yup.. clemons seems to be following the same trajectory as clifton smith did last year... praise, then slence, then cut...

i think clemons missed the chance when he got hurt last year just when he had the opportunity to start. the fact that we added havner, simon and rocky has to be a reflection on him no matter what is said...
plus the position shift...not looking good..
Same can be said about McCune as well.

[MONK_in_HOF]

I am one of Holdman's biggest critics, and the defense absolutely dropped with him in there. Tatum Bell, Priest Holmes, and Tiki Barber KILLED us with Holdman in the lineup. thankfully other backs were not as talented and didn't do any permanent damage. Lets look at Holdman's per game tackle numbers:

CHI 0 (Yes, Zero as in Nada)
DAL 2
SEA 1
DEN 4
KC 2
SF 1
NYG 1

He averaged 1.57 tackles per start last season, and only compiled 16 tackles total!!!!!! That is absolutely unacceptable (IMO).

That said, I have faith in the coaching staff and he will be entering year 2. Hopefully there will be improvement, but lets not hide from the fact that Holdman was part of the reason our defense was atrociouis in a bunch of games early on. It wasn't until he was replaced in the lineup that the defense started to gel and dominate down the stretch.

Smoak I must respectfully disagree with your opinion here. Personally I am more interested in how the defense faired as a whole, as compared to looking at Holdman's stats individually. We played some of the better offenses in the league early last year and didn't give up a lot more yards or points than we did towards the end of the year.

2005 Results w/ Holdman Starting
Vs. Chicago- W - 7 PA, 166 total yds (crappy offense, but they wouldn't have scored if it hadn't been for Brown fumbling in red zone)
@ Dallas-W -7 PA, 351 total yds
Vs. Seattle-W -17 PA, 352 total yds ( 1 of best O's in league last year)
@ Denver-L -21PA, 257 total yds ( 1 of hardest places to play on road & top 3 rush attack)
@ KC -W -28 PA, 274 total yds (maybe best O in league and another brutal road stadium)

Lavar Return / Holdman reserve
Vs. SF- W- 17 PA, 194 total yds (just as crappy as the Bears O, if not worse)
@ NYG- L 36 PA, 386 total yds (total embarrassment, I think lavar/holdman played about a half each)
Vs Phi- L 10 PA, 336 total yds (not 1 of the better offenses, but they still had McNabb at this point)
@ TB- L- 36 PA, 340 total yds (also not a good offensive team, although PI calls gave them at least 1 TD I can recall)
Vs Oakland- L - 16 PA, 336 total yds (Also not an O juggernaut)
Vs SD - L - 23 PA, 397 total yds ( Great O, & numbers slightly elevated due to OT)
@ STL- W - 9 PA, 191 total yds ( Good O, but playing w/ 3rd string QB)

Holdman back in/ Lavar hurt
@ ARI- W - 13 PA, 302 total yds (Great WR, nothing else)
Vs Dal- W - 7PA, 216 total yds (Total domination)

Arrington returns / Holdman back to PT
Vs NYG- W - 20 PA, 332 total yds (Solid effort minus a few big plays)
@ PHI- W - 20 PA, 335 total yds (Should have done better IMO against 2nd team offense)
@ TB- W - 10 PA, 243 total yds (Defense saves day, Lavar's best game by far)
@ SEA- L :cry: -20 PA, 334 total yds ( Great O, 1 of harder away stadiums)

All in all I don't see much of a difference and especially not a drastic fall off in team D when Holdman was playing. I do realize there were other injuries on the team that coincided with Lavar/Holdman being in/out, such as Griffin, but I still never saw the drastic improvement so many did w/ Lavar in there. I also think that Holdman faced better offensive opposition in general. I am not trying to make the argument that Holdman is a better player, or even an equal to Lavar, as he clearly has inferior talent when compared to Lavar. My point is just that I never saw a major drop off in the defense as a whole, as so many others said they did, regardless of who was playing WLB.

[CNYSkinFan]

Monk to be fair you are comparing team defense and total yards versus rushing yards. LBer have a bigger impact on rushing yards per game then say passing yards per game IMO

[bgforever]

Smoak I must respectfully disagree with your opinion here. Personally I am more interested in how the defense faired as a whole, as compared to looking at Holdman's stats individually. We played some of the better offenses in the league early last year and didn't give up a lot more yards or points than we did towards the end of the year.

2005 Results w/ Holdman Starting
Vs. Chicago- W - 7 PA, 166 total yds (crappy offense, but they wouldn't have scored if it hadn't been for Brown fumbling in red zone)
@ Dallas-W -7 PA, 351 total yds
Vs. Seattle-W -17 PA, 352 total yds ( 1 of best O's in league last year)
@ Denver-L -21PA, 257 total yds ( 1 of hardest places to play on road & top 3 rush attack)
@ KC -W -28 PA, 274 total yds (maybe best O in league and another brutal road stadium)

Lavar Return / Holdman reserve
Vs. SF- W- 17 PA, 194 total yds (just as crappy as the Bears O, if not worse)
@ NYG- L 36 PA, 386 total yds (total embarrassment, I think lavar/holdman played about a half each)
Vs Phi- L 10 PA, 336 total yds (not 1 of the better offenses, but they still had McNabb at this point)
@ TB- L- 36 PA, 340 total yds (also not a good offensive team, although PI calls gave them at least 1 TD I can recall)
Vs Oakland- L - 16 PA, 336 total yds (Also not an O juggernaut)
Vs SD - L - 23 PA, 397 total yds ( Great O, & numbers slightly elevated due to OT)
@ STL- W - 9 PA, 191 total yds ( Good O, but playing w/ 3rd string QB)

Holdman back in/ Lavar hurt
@ ARI- W - 13 PA, 302 total yds (Great WR, nothing else)
Vs Dal- W - 7PA, 216 total yds (Total domination)

Arrington returns / Holdman back to PT
Vs NYG- W - 20 PA, 332 total yds (Solid effort minus a few big plays)
@ PHI- W - 20 PA, 335 total yds (Should have done better IMO against 2nd team offense)
@ TB- W - 10 PA, 243 total yds (Defense saves day, Lavar's best game by far)
@ SEA- L :cry: -20 PA, 334 total yds ( Great O, 1 of harder away stadiums)

All in all I don't see much of a difference and especially not a drastic fall off in team D when Holdman was playing. I do realize there were other injuries on the team that coincided with Lavar/Holdman being in/out, such as Griffin, but I still never saw the drastic improvement so many did w/ Lavar in there. I also think that Holdman faced better offensive opposition in general. I am not trying to make the argument that Holdman is a better player, or even an equal to Lavar, as he clearly has inferior talent when compared to Lavar. My point is just that I never saw a major drop off in the defense as a whole, as so many others said they did, regardless of who was playing WLB.


Truth may hurt the faithful to LaVar, but Holdman, seemed to be more in snyc with the overall team effort against the offenses. Not sure if this was totally due to the "in-shapeness" of LaVar, or the fact that Holdman seems to be the right fit like Lemar.

[shally]

I have no problem keeping Holdman as a starter if he wins the job. But in my mind if he can not win the job then he has not progressed beyond the Holdman from last year. IF that is the case then giving a UFA like Havner or a late round draft choice like Simon a chance to improve under a whole NFL year is worth the roster spot.

I also don't understand why Campbell is looked upon with such disregard. He made the squad despite having a a cndidate for his roster spot drafted in 05 (McCune) and served as the primary backup for MArshall, who was unproven himself, and getting a significant SB in the offseason. Campbell is no slouch and perhaps can add more to the team then Holdman when you factor in special teams play.

they used campbell in redzone packages, from what i remember.. but i cannot say he made many plays that i saw.. he is still a fine special teamer and that is his value. plus, he really came back from an ACL rupture and surgery like gangbusters in less than 1 year.. maybe he just needed 1 more year to get back fully ?

[MONK_in_HOF]

Monk to be fair you are comparing team defense and total yards versus rushing yards. LBer have a bigger impact on rushing yards per game then say passing yards per game IMO

Jeremy Shockey and Antonio Gates may beg to differ.
I agree that LB are in general more geared to stop the run, but in today's NFL they need to do both.

[CNYSkinFan]

sure they need to do both but run defense is their primary responsibility. Look at the stats:

Lavar Arrington 9 games started 39 tackles 8 assists ( add in 2 post season games with 9 tackles 2 assists and an interception if you want)
Warrick Holdman 7 games started 16 tackles 7 assists

I am fine with Lavar being gone and us moving on but let's not be intellectually dishonest here. Holdman was a liability last year and Lavar outperformed him on the field. Period.

[danny's stogie]

I have no problem keeping Holdman as a starter if he wins the job. But in my mind if he can not win the job then he has not progressed beyond the Holdman from last year. IF that is the case then giving a UFA like Havner or a late round draft choice like Simon a chance to improve under a whole NFL year is worth the roster spot.

I also don't understand why Campbell is looked upon with such disregard. He made the squad despite having a a cndidate for his roster spot drafted in 05 (McCune) and served as the primary backup for MArshall, who was unproven himself, and getting a significant SB in the offseason. Campbell is no slouch and perhaps can add more to the team then Holdman when you factor in special teams play.

But you don't know if any of the other linebackers are better than the Holdman from last year. If Rocky is the 3rd best linebacker and Holdman is the 4th would you cut Holdman just because he isn't going to start? What happens when *knock on wood* one of the starters goes down? This team isn't currently rebuilding. If they were in the same shoes as the 49ers where they need to start building a foundation for the future then I could see a case for keeping a young guy just to see how he progresses. Throwing some unproven and inexperienced linebacker into the fray during a late season, division deciding matchup against the Giants doesn't sit well with me.

Furthermore, I wouldn't expect lightning in a bottle from any of these guys. They are all late round picks or UDFAs. Simply making the roster is an accomplishment let alone starting or even being a primary backup. Holdman, on the other hand, is a veteran with a lot of starting experience and with that alone he brings a whole lot more to the table than any other linebacker that is currently in competition for a job.

You dodged my point about the double standard.

Campbell was merely used as an example.

[shally]

[QUOTE=danny's stogie]But you don't know if any of the other linebackers are better than the Holdman from last year. If Rocky is the 3rd best linebacker and Holdman is the 4th would you cut Holdman just because he isn't going to start? What happens when *knock on wood* one of the starters goes down? This team isn't currently rebuilding. If they were in the same shoes as the 49ers where they need to start building a foundation for the future then I could see a case for keeping a young guy just to see how he progresses. Throwing some unproven and inexperienced linebacker into the fray during a late season, division deciding matchup against the Giants doesn't sit well with me.

Furthermore, I wouldn't expect lightning in a bottle from any of these guys. They are all late round picks or UDFAs. Simply making the roster is an accomplishment let alone starting or even being a primary backup. Holdman, on the other hand, is a veteran with a lot of starting experience and with that alone he brings a whole lot more to the table than any other linebacker that is currently in competition for a job.

You dodged my point about the double standard.

Campbell was merely used as an example.[/QUOTE

i see your point, but if holdman plays the way he played last year, he will be nothing more than a speed bump for the giants or any other running team. so what if he is a veteran? better to have a younger player who can actually make a tackle now and then.. holdman was truly awful last year.

if he is in better shape and can contribute, sure, keep him.. but not if his level of play is the same as last year's

[danny's stogie]

Monk to be fair you are comparing team defense and total yards versus rushing yards. LBer have a bigger impact on rushing yards per game then say passing yards per game IMO

I really don't agree with this generalization.

[MONK_in_HOF]

sure they need to do both but run defense is their primary responsibility. Look at the stats:

Lavar Arrington 9 games started 39 tackles 8 assists ( add in 2 post season games with 9 tackles 2 assists and an interception if you want)
Warrick Holdman 7 games started 16 tackles 7 assists

I am fine with Lavar being gone and us moving on but let's not be intellectually dishonest here. Holdman was a liability last year and Lavar outperformed him on the field. Period.

Maybe statistically Lavar beat him out, as should be expected, but once again my point is the defense as a whole didn't surrender a lot more yards or points when he was out.

As asked for here is the breakdown of rushing yds allowed per game.

Holdman only
CHI- 41 yds
@ DAL- 90 yds
SEA- 119 yds (top 3 back in league)
@Den- 165 yds (arguably best running offense)
@KC- 96 yds (arguably best running offense)

Lavar and Holdman
SF- 140 yds
@ NYG- 262 yds
PHI- 45 yds (not really fair to include b/c they don't run)
@ TB- 61 yds
OAK - 50 yds
SD - 202 yds (probably best RB in league)
@ STL- 49 yds

Holdman only
@ ARI- 62 yds
Dal - 109 yds

Lavar and Holdman
NYG- 99 yds
@Phi- 96 yds (how did this happen? Some of their passes must have been laterals)
@ TB- 75 yds
@ SEA- 119 (oddly enough, exact amount of yds as first game)

Again, I don't see the massive improvement. Especially when you consider the 3 teams (KC, SEA, DEN) faced in the first 5 games. The numbers seem to be associated more w/ who we played, not who was playing IMO.

EDIT: All stats used have been taken from NFL.COM. If they are incorrect blame them not me.

[shally]

Maybe statistically Lavar beat him out, as should be expected, but once again my point is the defense as a whole didn't surrender a lot more yards or points when he was out.

As asked for here is the breakdown of rushing yds allowed per game.

Holdman only
CHI- 41 yds
@ DAL- 90 yds
SEA- 119 yds (top 3 back in league)
@Den- 165 yds (arguably best running offense)
@KC- 96 yds (arguably best running offense)

Lavar and Holdman
SF- 140 yds
@ NYG- 262 yds
PHI- 45 yds (not really fair to include b/c they don't run)
@ TB- 61 yds
OAK - 50 yds
SD - 202 yds (probably best RB in league)
@ STL- 49 yds

Holdman only
@ ARI- 62 yds
Dal - 109 yds

Lavar and Holdman
NYG- 99 yds
@Phi- 96 yds (how did this happen? Some of their passes must have been laterals)
@ TB- 75 yds
@ SEA- 119 (oddly enough, exact amount of yds as first game)

Again, I don't see the massive improvement. Especially when you consider the 3 teams (KC, SEA, DEN) faced in the first 5 games. The numbers seem to be associated more w/ who we played, not who was playing IMO.

valid points... but it went beyond that. lavar made some momentum changing plays. he made some stops in the backfield.. i cannot remember holdman making a single significant play.. can you ? even his tackles seemed to be downfield rather than at the line. do you think that is an unfair characterization of his play? he just did little or nothing.. lavar was definitely more boom or bust, but at least he made some plays..

[danny's stogie]

i see your point, but if holdman plays the way he played last year, he will be nothing more than a speed bump for the giants or any other running team. so what if he is a veteran? better to have a younger player who can actually make a tackle now and then.. holdman was truly awful last year.

if he is in better shape and can contribute, sure, keep him.. but not if his level of play is the same as last year's

But you guys are saying cut Holdman if he doesn't win the starting job. First it's that, well, he might be better than the unprovens, but cut him anyways because we should give the young guys a chance. Now it's that he's going to get flat out beat out by a bunch of youngins'. What is it? Pick a stance guys instead of looking at a few bad plays and using Holdman as a fall guy for an imperfect defense.

[shally]

But you guys are saying cut Holdman if he doesn't win the starting job. First it's that, well, he might be better than the unprovens, but cut him anyways because we should give the young guys a chance. Now it's that he's going to get flat out beat out by a bunch of youngins'. What is it? Pick a stance guys instead of looking at a few bad plays and using Holdman as a fall guy for an imperfect defense.


okay..

if he gets clearly beaten out by a young guy.. cut him
if he plays like last year.. cut him
if he plays well enough to start.. definitely keep him
if it is a push, keep him and hope we can stash the younger player on IR or PS

[danny's stogie]

okay..

if he gets clearly beaten out by a young guy.. cut him
if he plays like last year.. cut him
if he plays well enough to start.. definitely keep him
if it is a push, keep him and hope we can stash the younger player on IR or PS

Ok, I agree with all except the second one. If he plays like last year and he's one of the 7 best linebackers then he should be kept.

[MONK_in_HOF]

valid points... but it went beyond that. lavar made some momentum changing plays. he made some stops in the backfield.. i cannot remember holdman making a single significant play.. can you ? even his tackles seemed to be downfield rather than at the line. do you think that is an unfair characterization of his play? he just did little or nothing.. lavar was definitely more boom or bust, but at least he made some plays..

True, but to counter that point he also allowed some momentum changing plays (not that Holdman didn't). I agree with the boom or bust assessment, but I can remember much more bust. I remember Antonio Gates in OT and Shockey romping over him for a TD in the home win. I also think it is easier to assess Lavar's play b/c when he is in the game people focus on him b/c they expect him to do something special. I don't think Holdman will ever command that type of attention. To be honest I really don't remember any big plays, or any plays at all from Holdman for that matter, but I can only remember 1 impact play from Lavar (INT against TB which should be credited to the DL who tipped it at the line and caused it to land in his lap).

Once again, I am not trying to compare the 2 players, just how the 2 of them affected the defense as a whole. Lavar is better than Holdman. No doubt about that. I just don't think either player significantly improved or depreciated our defensive unit.

[shally]

Ok, I agree with all except the second one. If he plays like last year and he's one of the 7 best linebackers then he should be kept.


maybe.. honestly, if it is the team defense that is at fault, then it is hard to lay the blame on holdman.. but i do not think that will be the case this year because of the additions.. he is either going to make it or not based upon his own performance.
if he is that bad then i cannot see keeping him just because we have to have 7 linebackers.. better to keep another def lineman, runner, etc..and go with 6..keep the best 53

[shally]

True, but to counter that point he also allowed some momentum changing plays (not that Holdman didn't). I agree with the boom or bust assessment, but I can remember much more bust. I remember Antonio Gates in OT and Shockey romping over him for a TD in the home win. I also think it is easier to assess Lavar's play b/c when he is in the game people focus on him b/c they expect him to do something special. I don't think Holdman will ever command that type of attention. To be honest I really don't remember any big plays, or any plays at all from Holdman for that matter, but I can only remember 1 impact play from Lavar (INT against TB which should be credited to the DL who tipped it at the line and caused it to land in his lap).

Once again, I am not trying to compare the 2 players, just how the 2 of them affected the defense as a whole. Lavar is better than Holdman. No doubt about that. I just don't think either player significantly improved or depreciated our defensive unit.

i can think of at least a couple of times when lavar got someone in the backfield.. (of course he had his usual couple of encroachment penalties as well..LOL).
but on balance, the defense was not that much better either way-- in contrast to the effect that griffin had on the overall defense.. or taylor..

[bgforever]

True, but to counter that point he also allowed some momentum changing plays (not that Holdman didn't). I agree with the boom or bust assessment, but I can remember much more bust. I remember Antonio Gates in OT and Shockey romping over him for a TD in the home win. I also think it is easier to assess Lavar's play b/c when he is in the game people focus on him b/c they expect him to do something special. I don't think Holdman will ever command that type of attention. To be honest I really don't remember any big plays, or any plays at all from Holdman for that matter, but I can only remember 1 impact play from Lavar (INT against TB which should be credited to the DL who tipped it at the line and caused it to land in his lap).

Once again, I am not trying to compare the 2 players, just how the 2 of them affected the defense as a whole. Lavar is better than Holdman. No doubt about that. I just don't think either player significantly improved or depreciated our defensive unit.

that is my point. NOT the stats, but HOW the TEAM responded on EACH play throughout a game, not a SET UP for a humongous Individual effort. Point is, some plays could have been avoided on defense, having to be made, if other plays that were NEGLECTED hadn't occured in the first place.

[CNYSkinFan]

But you guys are saying cut Holdman if he doesn't win the starting job. First it's that, well, he might be better than the unprovens, but cut him anyways because we should give the young guys a chance. Now it's that he's going to get flat out beat out by a bunch of youngins'. What is it? Pick a stance guys instead of looking at a few bad plays and using Holdman as a fall guy for an imperfect defense.

You are ignoring special teams play though. Backup lbers are expected to play on special teams whereas starters can be given a pass. Backup oline don't have that extra responsibility for the most part. My point is simple:

If Holdman has progressed beyond his play of last year then he will win the starting spot over a rookie who is injured.

If not then I don't see a vast improvement from the Holdman of last year and a UFA, and perhaps they may actually beat him out on LB skill alone. But if you factor in special team skill then almost all of our UFAs have an edge on Holdman as a backup LB.

We are all just guessing right now, you are making the assumption Holdman is better then Simon, Havner, or Clemons. I am assuming (if he does not win the starting job) he is not. I don't see what you saw in Holdman's play last year that leads you to that conclusion though. Sometimes to keep a young team you take a young raw guy over a veteran who is not contributing anymore to build for the future. I think Holdman falls in that pattern.

As for my rants on oline I did advocate filling up the reserve with our draft picks, preferably our 5th rounder, so I am being consistent on this issue.

[CNYSkinFan]

okay..

if he gets clearly beaten out by a young guy.. cut him
if he plays like last year.. cut him
if he plays well enough to start.. definitely keep him
if it is a push, keep him and hope we can stash the younger player on IR or PS

I am sorry if it is apush you go with the younger guy who can play special teams IMO.

[redwolf1218]

I am sorry if it is apush you go with the younger guy who can play special teams IMO.
sadly, with Campbell, Clemons, McCune, Rocky, Simon, Havner, and even that French dude who was NFLE defensive player of the year...the coaches might be faced with a situation where there are several guys who are great leaders, all smart, all with great character, all physically gifted, and all good on special teams, and still have to make a decision to let some of them go.

[akhhorus]

The simple fact is that we got little from the WLB last year no matter who played, thats why we dealt up for Rocky(basically, that and we filled other needs in Free agency). Holdman might be the presumtive starter for now, but Rocky will inhabit that position before very long. Williams likes to make his rookies work for their job.

[shally]

I am sorry if it is apush you go with the younger guy who can play special teams IMO.

ordinarily i would agree with you on that.. but if we add rocky, simon, havner
and possibly keep clemons (none of them sure things) we could have a very inexperienced lb corps.. not sure what williams comfort level would be with that.. i think some of the linebacker decisions may be interlinked to each other rather than made in isolation

[shally]

The simple fact is that we got little from the WLB last year no matter who played, thats why we dealt up for Rocky(basically, that and we filled other needs in Free agency). Holdman might be the presumtive starter for now, but Rocky will inhabit that position before very long. Williams likes to make his rookies work for their job.


that would seem to be the plan..was lott really the starter before taylor? seems like ages ago.. hopefully rocky will entrench himself that thoroughly

[smoak]

I agree with that!!! However going back to 2000 could be relevant since most of the time it was Cerrato and Snyder making the picks, not the coaching staff, but that changed under Gibbs.

McCune and Molinaro have their judgment days coming this year. If they make it this year then I will not consider them busts (espescially McCune). If not then they might be labelled that, espescially if they are not on other teams rosters.

Yeah, but primarily it is just a ton of work and would require lots of help. Secondarily, I never defended Snyder and Cerrato's drafting ability and only stood up for Gibbs. :D

the sample size will still work the same for an average, but the low sample size is indicative of trades, which results in less needs, and less roster spots available for a rookie to really have a chance to make it. so the results will be skewed and the stats will be misleading because of the differing variables.

I don't disagree, but it becomes an expontially more difficult exercise to go back and look at rosters for each team at the point a player is cut. Certainly the Redskins are pretty good at not needing the draft to fill holes, but rather using it to throw numbers at a position for depth (Molinaro/Wilson and Nemo/White and Golston/Montgomery). I actually really like that philosophy b/c it gives you better odds that SOMEONE will step up out of the draft class.

[Red Bear]

Maybe statistically Lavar beat him out, as should be expected, but once again my point is the defense as a whole didn't surrender a lot more yards or points when he was out.

As asked for here is the breakdown of rushing yds allowed per game.

Holdman only
CHI- 41 yds
@ DAL- 90 yds
SEA- 119 yds (top 3 back in league)
@Den- 165 yds (arguably best running offense)
@KC- 96 yds (arguably best running offense)

Lavar and Holdman
SF- 140 yds
@ NYG- 262 yds
PHI- 45 yds (not really fair to include b/c they don't run)
@ TB- 61 yds
OAK - 50 yds
SD - 202 yds (probably best RB in league)
@ STL- 49 yds

Holdman only
@ ARI- 62 yds
Dal - 109 yds

Lavar and Holdman
NYG- 99 yds
@Phi- 96 yds (how did this happen? Some of their passes must have been laterals)
@ TB- 75 yds
@ SEA- 119 (oddly enough, exact amount of yds as first game)

Again, I don't see the massive improvement. Especially when you consider the 3 teams (KC, SEA, DEN) faced in the first 5 games. The numbers seem to be associated more w/ who we played, not who was playing IMO.

EDIT: All stats used have been taken from NFL.COM. If they are incorrect blame them not me.

the one improvement that was clearly noticeable after the switch from holdman to arrington was that once we took holdman out our defense stopped giving up those big running plays as frequent to opposing offenses every week.

[redwolf1218]

Yeah, but primarily it is just a ton of work and would require lots of help. Secondarily, I never defended Snyder and Cerrato's drafting ability and only stood up for Gibbs. :D



I don't disagree, but it becomes an expontially more difficult exercise to go back and look at rosters for each team at the point a player is cut. Certainly the Redskins are pretty good at not needing the draft to fill holes, but rather using it to throw numbers at a position for depth (Molinaro/Wilson and Nemo/White and Golston/Montgomery). I actually really like that philosophy b/c it gives you better odds that SOMEONE will step up out of the draft class.
i like it too. it seems like if they think they need one guy at one position, they'll take 3 or 4 and let the competition determine the outcome. in the last few years they took several big backs, o-lineman, d-tackles, linebackers...if nothing else they should be able to upgrade the depth. it reminds me of my company here, where they take several college interns in the hopes that at least one of them will pan out in the long run.

[whitskins]

But you don't know if any of the other linebackers are better than the Holdman from last year. If Rocky is the 3rd best linebacker and Holdman is the 4th would you cut Holdman just because he isn't going to start? What happens when *knock on wood* one of the starters goes down? This team isn't currently rebuilding. If they were in the same shoes as the 49ers where they need to start building a foundation for the future then I could see a case for keeping a young guy just to see how he progresses. Throwing some unproven and inexperienced linebacker into the fray during a late season, division deciding matchup against the Giants doesn't sit well with me.

Furthermore, I wouldn't expect lightning in a bottle from any of these guys. They are all late round picks or UDFAs. Simply making the roster is an accomplishment let alone starting or even being a primary backup. Holdman, on the other hand, is a veteran with a lot of starting experience and with that alone he brings a whole lot more to the table than any other linebacker that is currently in competition for a job.

You dodged my point about the double standard.

Campbell was merely used as an example.

Gotta agree with you here, DS. We're not desperate for LBs who play special teams. We've got plenty. Holdman didn't play special teams last year and we were fine on teams. I'd rather have a stouter unit on defense than one extra 7th rounder or UFA available for special teams. And we wouldn't even have to cut ties with one of the rookies, we just stash them on the practice squad and bump them up later in the season or next year.

But I don't think this scenario will come into play anyways. Holdman is going to win the starting job. Apparently he's looked great this preseason. And that's Gregg Williams saying that, not Dale Lindsey who so many people believe is solely responsible for Holdman's place on this team. I believe GW when he rationalizes that Holdman was recovering from an injury, out of shape, and tentative last year. I think we'll see much better from him this year.

I'm surprised that a lot of people think Lavar Arrington can turn his career around and regain his past form, but not Holdman. Holdman was a Pro Bowl caliber player at one time as well. I think he'll keep the seat warm fine for 4-6 games then we can get our man Rocky in there and Holdman can provide some solid depth.

[MONK_in_HOF]

the one improvement that was clearly noticeable after the switch from holdman to arrington was that once we took holdman out our defense stopped giving up those big running plays as frequent to opposing offenses every week.

I have seen that argument many times but haven't found any evidence to substantiate it. Once again I think it all depended on who we were playing, not who was playing WLB, as both our options at that position struggled IMO. The teams with good rushing attacks like DEN, SEA, SD found a way to break a long run or 2. The others like TB and PHI didn't, except for SF??? Looking back I think giving up 96 total yards @ KC is pretty stout, although I am not sure they had Roaf that game.


The longest run of the games in ().

Holdman only
Chi- (8)
@ Dal- (9)
SEA- (34)
@ Den-(55td, 34td)
@ KC- (19)

Lavar + Holdman
SF- (72td)
@ NYG- (59,57)
Phi- (7)
@ TB- (10)
Oak- (10)
SD- (41td, 32td)
@ STL- (9)

Holdman only
@ARI- (11)
Dal- (51)

Lavar + Holdman
NYG- (31)
@ PHI- (11)
@ TB- (8)
@ SEA- (32)

[shally]

I have seen that argument many times but haven't found any evidence to substantiate it. Once again I think it all depended on who we were playing, not who was playing WLB, as both our options at that position struggled IMO. The teams with good rushing attacks like DEN, SEA, SD found a way to break a long run or 2. The others like TB and PHI didn't, except for SF??? Looking back I think giving up 96 total yards @ KC is pretty stout, although I am not sure they had Roaf that game.


The longest run of the games in ().

Holdman only
Chi- (8)
@ Dal- (9)
SEA- (34)
@ Den-(55td, 34td)
@ KC- (19)

Lavar + Holdman
SF- (72td)
@ NYG- (59,57)
Phi- (7)
@ TB- (10)
Oak- (10)
SD- (41td, 32td)
@ STL- (9)

Holdman only
@ARI- (11)
Dal- (51)

Lavar + Holdman
NYG- (31)
@ PHI- (11)
@ TB- (8)
@ SEA- (32)

some of those long runs were back breakers and some were not.. still
we cannot be gashed for that kind of yardage this year. having fresh def linemen to rotate should help a lot, as will having rogers for a full year at corner. and arch coming up at safety... still we need the WLB to be stout
at the point of attack..

[danny's stogie]

Gotta agree with you here, DS. We're not desperate for LBs who play special teams. We've got plenty. Holdman didn't play special teams last year and we were fine on teams. I'd rather have a stouter unit on defense than one extra 7th rounder or UFA available for special teams. And we wouldn't even have to cut ties with one of the rookies, we just stash them on the practice squad and bump them up later in the season or next year.

But I don't think this scenario will come into play anyways. Holdman is going to win the starting job. Apparently he's looked great this preseason. And that's Gregg Williams saying that, not Dale Lindsey who so many people believe is solely responsible for Holdman's place on this team. I believe GW when he rationalizes that Holdman was recovering from an injury, out of shape, and tentative last year. I think we'll see much better from him this year.

I'm surprised that a lot of people think Lavar Arrington can turn his career around and regain his past form, but not Holdman. Holdman was a Pro Bowl caliber player at one time as well. I think he'll keep the seat warm fine for 4-6 games then we can get our man Rocky in there and Holdman can provide some solid depth.

...or the Skins can just steal another similar UDFA linebacker from my local rec league. Or when one gets cut and isn't picked up by another team the Skins can just resign them.

I'd actually be suprised if it was that soon. I can't remember off the top of my head, but it took Carlos Rogers about that long to push Harris from the lineup and he was a top 10 overall pick. It took Sean Taylor a few games also even though from day 1 it was clear he was the best safety on the team. Rocky is a second round pick who is battling injuries. It's not a given that he starts today, tomorrow, or ever.

[MONK_in_HOF]

some of those long runs were back breakers and some were not.. still
we cannot be gashed for that kind of yardage this year. having fresh def linemen to rotate should help a lot, as will having rogers for a full year at corner. and arch coming up at safety... still we need the WLB to be stout
at the point of attack..

Agreed. We can't have our WLB(s) be a liability against the run and/or pass this year. The NFC east is too tough. I don't think we need a superstar, rather just a consistent performer who plays their role. Hopefully this will be Rocky sooner than later. The depth on the DL should help.

[HanburgerBum]

sounds like the battle for 2 spots is between 4 guys: Clemons, Campbell, Simon and Havner. they are teaching Simon the middle so it appears he has to beat out Campbell, and Havner has to beat out Clemons. i am not impressed with Clemons or Campbell, so i hope Simon and Havner prove to be better. i think they both would have been drafted much higher without their injury history, and then we never would have had a chance to get them. we are lucky to have them here.


Are you saying McCune is among the 5 locks (along with Washington, Marshall, McIntosh and Holdman) to make the team? If so, couldn't disagree with you more. I see McCune as hanging by a thread. He is at best the 3d option at WLB. As a special teamer, he is not better than Campbell and it's not clear that he is any better than Clemons or the rookies Havner and Simon.

[HanburgerBum]

No one but Washington Marshall and McIntosh are shoe-ins at this point

This is about right as far as I can tell.



It plays out like this for me:

There are 6 definite roster spots, one for each starter at the three LB positions and one for each backup. @ starting spots (Marshall and Washington) are locked down.

Clemons and Havner battle for the backup SAM, winner gets a roster spot.

Simon and Campbell battle for the backup MIKE, Winner gets a roster spot.

McIntosh and Holdman battle for the starting WILL. If Holdman wins, he gets a roster spot. IF not he will be cut and McCune gets the backup WIll Roster spot.

If Holdman wins McIntosh gets the backup spot automatically.

The two or three losers in the above battles will probably battle for one roster spot, best special teams player gets it (which is why Holdman gets cut if he is not the starter because of his lack of special teams play).

Havner, Simon, and McCune do have the Practice Squad safety net to fall back on. Campbell, Clemons, & Holdman do not. In some ways that means the ties might go to the vets as the coaches will try to stash young guys on the PS.

I guess it is possible we keep 8 Lbers but I am not so sure we do since we will be keeping 5 Wrs instead of 4 this year IMO


The only quarrel I would have with your analysis is that I tend to agree with Danny's Stogie that Holdman should not an automatic cut if he isn't starting (as you have suggested). Clemons has been moved to the strong side. So, if McIntosh is starting, do you honestly think GW would go into a season with McCune as the first backup at WLB? Not going to happen. I don't have anything personal against McCune, but he simply CAN'T PLAY.

As for a backup LB having to be a special team player, it would be nice, but it's not paramount. Young backers like Havner and Simon should be able to take up the slack there. I think the one veteran that is in serious trouble right now is Clemons. As you said, position switch is not a good sign. Plus, GW said in the Redskins website interview that Clemons must show that he can play the run and must make more plays on special teams. Not exactly praise.

[HanburgerBum]

I actually take a glass half approach to Molinaro. The fact that he's still on the roster is impressive to me and I consider it a good pick. The vast majority of 6th and 7th rounders aren't with their original team, let alone still in the league, 3 years after getting drafted. Having Wilson make the roster also would have just defied the odds.

When did Molinaro have a chance to play? You couldn't expect him to play for Jansen in 04 when he was just a rookie and last year both Jansen and Samuels were healthy. Are you refering to when Randy went down, then Ray Brown? There's a big difference between playing guard and playing tackle.


Yeah, playing guard is different from playing tackle. But, playing guard is also different from playing center. In an emergency, a player has got to make adjustments and get the job done as best he can.

When Molinaro was a rookie and a backup was needed at tackle with Jansen being lost for the year, you can argue that his rookie status prevented him from playing. But, Brown (primarily a guard) was only so-so as a fill-in and the season was going down the tubes. If Molinaro showed anything, I think the coaches would have given him an opportunity to play.

Then in his sophomore year, when Thomas went down, Molinaro was passed over first for a 42-year old and then for a washed up center. This indicates to me that his position coach has absolutely no confidence in him. I think Molinaro is headed out the door just like his draftmate Wilson, only a year later.

[shally]

Yeah, playing guard is different from playing tackle. But, playing guard is also different from playing center. In an emergency, a player has got to make adjustments and get the job done as best he can.

When Molinaro was a rookie and a backup was needed at tackle with Jansen being lost for the year, you can argue that his rookie status prevented him from playing. But, Brown (primarily a guard) was only so-so as a fill-in and the season was going down the tubes. If Molinaro showed anything, I think the coaches would have given him an opportunity to play.

Then in his sophomore year, when Thomas went down, Molinaro was passed over first for a 42-year old and then for a washed up center. This indicates to me that his position coach has absolutely no confidence in him. I think Molinaro is headed out the door just like his draftmate Wilson, only a year later.

his best play last year might have actually been on the d line where they used him in goalline situations.. doen't bode well for him this year until he really improved over the off season

[danny's stogie]

Yeah, playing guard is different from playing tackle. But, playing guard is also different from playing center. In an emergency, a player has got to make adjustments and get the job done as best he can.

When Molinaro was a rookie and a backup was needed at tackle with Jansen being lost for the year, you can argue that his rookie status prevented him from playing. But, Brown (primarily a guard) was only so-so as a fill-in and the season was going down the tubes. If Molinaro showed anything, I think the coaches would have given him an opportunity to play.

Then in his sophomore year, when Thomas went down, Molinaro was passed over first for a 42-year old and then for a washed up center. This indicates to me that his position coach has absolutely no confidence in him. I think Molinaro is headed out the door just like his draftmate Wilson, only a year later.

It's like a consistent theme of a Gibbs' run team -- Gibbs 1.0 and 2.0 -- is being overlooked time and time again by HR: veterans over rookies and unproven players.

Addressing your points in no particular order:
It's easier to transition from Center to Guard especially for a veteran like Raymer who has called line assignments for 10 years in the NFL. Molinaro was a late round pick, a project, you shouldn't expect him to be on the field period. He had been learning how to play tackle for 2 years and is still probably a few years away from being able to contribute. The fact that he is still on the roster at this point is a testament to him, most likely his work ethic, motivation, and potential.

I heard that Brown has played some tackle before. He was also a 20 year vet who, despite physical shortcomings, knew what to do on the field.

In the playoffs: yes, throw a sophmore TACKLE into a playoff game and expect him to play a position he has never played before. Also, a large part of Oline play is blocking assignments. You can't expect a second year 7th round draft pick to know signals and blocking assignments for every position on the Oline. That's why, for the most part, teams have primary backups at each individual position.

Garbage time in 04: nothing like throwing 7th round rookies into the fray late in the season, great way to kill the QB, but given it was Pat Ramsey starting at that point it might have been a good way to put him out of his misery.

[HanburgerBum]

It's like a consistent theme of a Gibbs' run team -- Gibbs 1.0 and 2.0 -- is being overlooked time and time again by HR: veterans over rookies and unproven players.

Addressing your points in no particular order:
It's easier to transition from Center to Guard especially for a veteran like Raymer who has called line assignments for 10 years in the NFL. Molinaro was a late round pick, a project, you shouldn't expect him to be on the field period. He had been learning how to play tackle for 2 years and is still probably a few years away from being able to contribute. The fact that he is still on the roster at this point is a testament to him, most likely his work ethic, motivation, and potential.

I heard that Brown has played some tackle before. He was also a 20 year vet who, despite physical shortcomings, knew what to do on the field.

In the playoffs: yes, throw a sophmore TACKLE into a playoff game and expect him to play a position he has never played before. Also, a large part of Oline play is blocking assignments. You can't expect a second year 7th round draft pick to know signals and blocking assignments for every position on the Oline. That's why, for the most part, teams have primary backups at each individual position.

Garbage time in 04: nothing like throwing 7th round rookies into the fray late in the season, great way to kill the QB, but given it was Pat Ramsey starting at that point it might have been a good way to put him out of his misery.


You can make all the excuses for Molinaro you want. But, the fact remained that when opportunities arose for a backup to play the last two seasons, Molinaro was passed over. And, regardless of the issue whether a tackle or a center is more out of position playing guard, it was clear that the coaches were of the opinion that Molinaro would have been worse than Raymer at right guard. That alone should tell us all we need to know about Molinaro.

[danny's stogie]

You can make all the excuses for Molinaro you want. But, the fact remained that when opportunities arose for a backup to play the last two seasons, Molinaro was passed over. And, regardless of the issue whether a tackle or a center is more out of position playing guard, it was clear that the coaches were of the opinion that Molinaro would have been worse than Raymer at right guard. That alone should tell us all we need to know about Molinaro.

I'm not making excuses for Molinaro, I'm challenging the misconceptions about him. Once again, you're comparing apples to oranges. It's like saying the coaches don't have faith in Ade Jimoh as a backup because he didn't sub for ST in the Tampa game. Sure, they're both DBs, but they play different positions. If you want to knock him for not filling in for Jansen during Molinaro's rookie season then that's fine, it just means you have a different opinion regarding what a rookie 7th round pick should be expected to do. But now that he's a third year vet, If Samuels goes down for any amount of time *knock on wood* and Molinaro isn't the first off the bench then I'll conceed the point.

[skinfan43]

...or the Skins can just steal another similar UDFA linebacker from my local rec league. Or when one gets cut and isn't picked up by another team the Skins can just resign them.

I'd actually be suprised if it was that soon. I can't remember off the top of my head, but it took Carlos Rogers about that long to push Harris from the lineup and he was a top 10 overall pick. It took Sean Taylor a few games also even though from day 1 it was clear he was the best safety on the team. Rocky is a second round pick who is battling injuries. It's not a given that he starts today, tomorrow, or ever.
The way the Skins moved up and gave up an additional pick to secure Rocky at #35 overall, makes him essentially a first-round pick in my eyes. I don't think it's crazy then, to state this:

I fully expect Rocky to eventually start and dominate in this system, period.

(When he does is entirely up to GW, and the possible renewed play of Holdman at WLB.)

[SpicyMcHaggis]

The way the Skins moved up and gave up an additional pick to secure Rocky at #35 overall, makes him essentially a first-round pick in my eyes. I don't think it's crazy then, to state this:

I fully expect Rocky to eventually start and dominate in this system, period.

(When he does is entirely up to GW, and the possible renewed play of Holdman at WLB.)
I think everybody at the Redskins' facility is expecting Rocky to take over the LB position sooner or later. That certainly is the plan..now many things can go wrong, or another player can step up and beat him out, but right now he is the future at WLB for this team if all goes well...

[redwolf1218]

The only quarrel I would have with your analysis is that I tend to agree with Danny's Stogie that Holdman should not an automatic cut if he isn't starting (as you have suggested). Clemons has been moved to the strong side. So, if McIntosh is starting, do you honestly think GW would go into a season with McCune as the first backup at WLB? Not going to happen. I don't have anything personal against McCune, but he simply CAN'T PLAY.
As for a backup LB having to be a special team player, it would be nice, but it's not paramount. Young backers like Havner and Simon should be able to take up the slack there. I think the one veteran that is in serious trouble right now is Clemons. As you said, position switch is not a good sign. Plus, GW said in the Redskins website interview that Clemons must show that he can play the run and must make more plays on special teams. Not exactly praise.
i dont think any of us can make the assertion that McCune can't play after only one year. the coaches have been praising his work ethic and studying efforts. Clemons has been openly challenged by Williams, as you stated. Havner and Simon have been receiving high praise. i havent heard anything at all about Campbell one way or the other.

[skinswin]

dont be too quick to judge, and i say that to myself also. many of us put down Brunell until his 2nd year here. Holdman has overcome injuries and he might have returned to top form. he was thrown to the wolves last year, but he's had a year in the system now and he's been studying. he's not old, yet he has experience and a history with the defensive coaches.

I kind of agree with this too. Because Holdman was a stud before injuries. And you also have to take into account that he'll be in this system for his second year so he'll be more comfortable too and that goes along way in a players performance.

If Greg Williams says that Holdman can do the job, then I have to believe it because Williams hasn't missed since he's been here. If Holdman is all the way back to what he used to be, our defense could be top 3 in the league.

[HanburgerBum]

I'm not making excuses for Molinaro, I'm challenging the misconceptions about him. Once again, you're comparing apples to oranges. It's like saying the coaches don't have faith in Ade Jimoh as a backup because he didn't sub for ST in the Tampa game. Sure, they're both DBs, but they play different positions. If you want to knock him for not filling in for Jansen during Molinaro's rookie season then that's fine, it just means you have a different opinion regarding what a rookie 7th round pick should be expected to do. But now that he's a third year vet, If Samuels goes down for any amount of time *knock on wood* and Molinaro isn't the first off the bench then I'll conceed the point.


I think Olinemen are more interchangeable than safeties and corners. Jacoby played guard late in his career when Lachey arrived. Grimm pinch hit at tackle on the odd occasion.

While I normally would tend to agree that tackles and guards are different positions and thus it may not be a reflection upon Molinaro not to be called upon at guard, I think the instant fact situation does reflect upon him. Even if we assume that a center plays a "closer" position to guard than a tackle, we are not talking about a normal center here. We are talking about a totally washed up Cory Raymer. And, when Raymer started playing horrendously in the Seattle game, why wasn't Molinaro put in? What did the Skins have to lose at that point? Raymer obviously couldn't get the job done.

As for Molinaro filling in for Samuels this season, I doubt that he will even be around to do so in the event the need arises.

[shally]

I think Olinemen are more interchangeable than safeties and corners. Jacoby played guard late in his career when Lachey arrived. Grimm pinch hit at tackle on the odd occasion.

While I normally would tend to agree that tackles and guards are different positions and thus it may not be a reflection upon Molinaro not to be called upon at guard, I think the instant fact situation does reflect upon him. Even if we assume that a center plays a "closer" position to guard than a tackle, we are not talking about a normal center here. We are talking about a totally washed up Cory Raymer. And, when Raymer started playing horrendously in the Seattle game, why wasn't Molinaro put in? What did the Skins have to lose at that point? Raymer obviously couldn't get the job done.

As for Molinaro filling in for Samuels this season, I doubt that he will even be around to do so in the event the need arises.

i think that molinaro was inactive for that game. so he couldn't fill in for anyone

[HanburgerBum]

i think that molinaro was inactive for that game. so he couldn't fill in for anyone


I don't remember if that was the case. But, even if that is the case, unless Molinaro was injured, his inactve status confirms my suspicion of what the coaches think of him.

[shally]

I don't remember if that was the case. But, even if that is the case, unless Molinaro was injured, his inactve status confirms my suspicion of what the coaches think of him.

we are on the same page on that subject for sure.. he needs a great camp to survive this year.

[HanburgerBum]

i dont think any of us can make the assertion that McCune can't play after only one year. the coaches have been praising his work ethic and studying efforts. Clemons has been openly challenged by Williams, as you stated. Havner and Simon have been receiving high praise. i havent heard anything at all about Campbell one way or the other.


Obviously, my assertion that McCune can't play is my opinion. I based that upon the fact that he was released last year before being added to the PS, that he has been switched to the weak side (obviously, the coaches didn't think he had a future as a MLB), that he did not show much in the last preseason, and that the scouting report on him was that he lacked instincts for the game.

I am glad that he has shown great work ethic and apparently has a good attitude. But, I seriously doubt that he will make the final roster, given the draft of McIntosh and Simon and the apparent resurgence of Holdman.

[danny's stogie]

I think Olinemen are more interchangeable than safeties and corners. Jacoby played guard late in his career when Lachey arrived. Grimm pinch hit at tackle on the odd occasion.

While I normally would tend to agree that tackles and guards are different positions and thus it may not be a reflection upon Molinaro not to be called upon at guard, I think the instant fact situation does reflect upon him. Even if we assume that a center plays a "closer" position to guard than a tackle, we are not talking about a normal center here. We are talking about a totally washed up Cory Raymer. And, when Raymer started playing horrendously in the Seattle game, why wasn't Molinaro put in? What did the Skins have to lose at that point? Raymer obviously couldn't get the job done.

As for Molinaro filling in for Samuels this season, I doubt that he will even be around to do so in the event the need arises.

I don't necessarily think so. Blocking is blocking, just like tackling and covering is tackling and covering, but every position, including each individual position on the Oline, has to learn different assignments for each and every play. It's fine that Jacoby played guard, but again we're talking about an established veteran here. Combine the position change with the fact that Molinaro was only a 2nd year late round draft pick and you'll understand why I wouldn't have expected him to be the primary, or even the secondary backup at guard.

[redwolf1218]

Obviously, my assertion that McCune can't play is my opinion. I based that upon the fact that he was released last year before being added to the PS, that he has been switched to the weak side (obviously, the coaches didn't think he had a future as a MLB), that he did not show much in the last preseason, and that the scouting report on him was that he lacked instincts for the game.

I am glad that he has shown great work ethic and apparently has a good attitude. But, I seriously doubt that he will make the final roster, given the draft of McIntosh and Simon and the apparent resurgence of Holdman.
it's not obvious to me at all that the coaches think he has no future in the middle. by all accounts that i have been reading, the switch was to teach him another position to make him more versatile. it may be that they feel he has the ability and determination to learn more.

on the other hand you may be right, they think he can't play the middle so they are taking the time to teach him the weak side to give him one more chance before releasing him.

[Brokenstriker]

re Holdman having an edge ... isn't this the exact same coaching tactic taken when Taylor was drafted? Real message is to Rocky 1. come to all of the meetings, 2. come to all of the work outs, 3. study and demonstrate that you understand the schemes on the practice field and in the pre-season games, 4 do not take any thing for granted ....

This isn't about Holdman ... its about McIntosh

[HanburgerBum]

it's not obvious to me at all that the coaches think he has no future in the middle. by all accounts that i have been reading, the switch was to teach him another position to make him more versatile. it may be that they feel he has the ability and determination to learn more.

on the other hand you may be right, they think he can't play the middle so they are taking the time to teach him the weak side to give him one more chance before releasing him.


I think you may have a point if McCune were a more established player than he is right now. I see him as hanging by a thread. Why would the coaches burden a player in his shoes with a new position, when by all appearances he hasn't done much to master the old position?

Does McCune have the frame to put on about 25 lbs and play DE? He wouldn't have to play in space then and may actually be able to utilize his strength and speed to maximum effect.

[redwolf1218]

I think you may have a point if McCune were a more established player than he is right now. I see him as hanging by a thread. Why would the coaches burden a player in his shoes with a new position, when by all appearances he hasn't done much to master the old position?

Does McCune have the frame to put on about 25 lbs and play DE? He wouldn't have to play in space then and may actually be able to utilize his strength and speed to maximum effect.
have you seen him? he is blown up like the Michelin man. i cant imagine him putting on any more weight.

[HanburgerBum]

re Holdman having an edge ... isn't this the exact same coaching tactic taken when Taylor was drafted? Real message is to Rocky 1. come to all of the meetings, 2. come to all of the work outs, 3. study and demonstrate that you understand the schemes on the practice field and in the pre-season games, 4 do not take any thing for granted ....

This isn't about Holdman ... its about McIntosh


Interesting angle. But, I think GW would not have moved Clemons to the strong side if he did not believe Holdman is truly ready to play well this year. Otherwise, the Skins would be left with only McIntosh (a rookie) and McCune (a questionable NFL player) on the weak side.

But, you are right in that it never hurts to bring a hot shot rookie down a peg just to make sure his head is screwed on straight.

[redwolf1218]

Interesting angle. But, I think GW would not have moved Clemons to the strong side if he did not believe Holdman is truly ready to play well this year. Otherwise, the Skins would be left with only McIntosh (a rookie) and McCune (a questionable NFL player) on the weak side.

But, you are right in that it never hurts to bring a hot shot rookie down a peg just to make sure his head is screwed on straight.
i think it might also bode well for Simon. they moved McCune out of the middle and didnt even try Clemons in the middle. i've heard good stuff about Simon in there, but i havent heard what they are doing with Campbell.

[HanburgerBum]

i think it might also bode well for Simon. they moved McCune out of the middle and didnt even try Clemons in the middle. i've heard good stuff about Simon in there, but i havent heard what they are doing with Campbell.


I also think things look good for Simon. He should make the team even if Khary Campbell is kept. Campbell would be the 7th backer who primarily plays special teams.

The real interesting battle may be Clemons vs Havner for the backup spot on the strong side. It wouln't surprise me a bit if the rookie beats out the veteran here (Clemons' position switch is a bad sign for him).

As for the weak side, I see Holdman and McIntosh, with McCune heading for the PS or out the door.

[redwolf1218]

I also think things look good for Simon. He should make the team even if Khary Campbell is kept. Campbell would be the 7th backer who primarily plays special teams.

The real interesting battle may be Clemons vs Havner for the backup spot on the strong side. It wouln't surprise me a bit if the rookie beats out the veteran here (Clemons' position switch is a bad sign for him).

As for the weak side, I see Holdman and McIntosh, with McCune heading for the PS or out the door.
i would feel really good about Simon and Marshall handling the middle. i'd like to see Simon get plenty of work in there and be able to play some to give Marshall a break once in while.

i think you're right about Havner. i am rooting for him to make it, i think he might be the steal of the draft. i found an article that might explain his freefall out of the draft...

http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/2005/08/09/sections/sports/sports/article_627992.php

Havner, for one, also will be playing them healthier. He had offseason surgery on his shoulder and on his knee, although he said they went in and found nothing in the latter.

All that, and then Havner has his own secret plan for gaining more recognition.

"I'm just going to get irritated," he said. "Very irritated."

[Red Bear]

I also think things look good for Simon. He should make the team even if Khary Campbell is kept. Campbell would be the 7th backer who primarily plays special teams.

The real interesting battle may be Clemons vs Havner for the backup spot on the strong side. It wouln't surprise me a bit if the rookie beats out the veteran here (Clemons' position switch is a bad sign for him).

As for the weak side, I see Holdman and McIntosh, with McCune heading for the PS or out the door.

the position switch for clemons could be a good thing, ive explained it before but no one paid any mind. marcus washington gets a healthy share of sacks playing the strongside, maybe the coaches think clemons will be more effective rushing the passer from the strongside than the weakside. also maybe havner is struggling learning the system and they figured he needed some veteran competition as well. maybe when gregg williams deploys his occasional 3-4 schemes this year clemons will be on the outside, with washington being inside with marshall. i wouldnt be so quick to view it as a negative thing. its not like clemons is switching from DL to LB or QB to WR or WR to CB or something like that. hes still a LB just on the otherside of the field...

[HanburgerBum]

the position switch for clemons could be a good thing, ive explained it before but no one paid any mind. marcus washington gets a healthy share of sacks playing the strongside, maybe the coaches think clemons will be more effective rushing the passer from the strongside than the weakside. also maybe havner is struggling learning the system and they figured he needed some veteran competition as well. maybe when gregg williams deploys his occasional 3-4 schemes this year clemons will be on the outside, with washington being inside with marshall. i wouldnt be so quick to view it as a negative thing. its not like clemons is switching from DL to LB or QB to WR or WR to CB or something like that. hes still a LB just on the otherside of the field...


If GW is going to deploy some 3-4 schemes, then I see Clemons possibly getting on the field. But, this defense is primarily a 4-3 defense, and it added Andre Carter. So, if anything, I think there will be even less 3-4 packages this season than last. In the 4-3, with Marcus playing all downs, when is Clemons going to see the field?

Someone here suggested that CC add 25 lbs of muscle and switch to DE. That may not be a bad idea.

[HanburgerBum]

i would feel really good about Simon and Marshall handling the middle. i'd like to see Simon get plenty of work in there and be able to play some to give Marshall a break once in while.

i think you're right about Havner. i am rooting for him to make it, i think he might be the steal of the draft. i found an article that might explain his freefall out of the draft...

http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/2005/08/09/sections/sports/sports/article_627992.php

Havner, for one, also will be playing them healthier. He had offseason surgery on his shoulder and on his knee, although he said they went in and found nothing in the latter.

All that, and then Havner has his own secret plan for gaining more recognition.

"I'm just going to get irritated," he said. "Very irritated."


Let's hope Simon is the "steal" of this draft, and Havner is the "steal" of the free agents.

This time, the Skins player acquisitions seem to have the theme of gambling with talented players who slid in the draft due to injury histories (McIntosh, Simon, Havner). I think that is the right strategy, especially in the late rounds. What's the point of making mundane selections on the second day, if these players, even when healthy, aren't good enough to play at the next level?

[shally]

If GW is going to deploy some 3-4 schemes, then I see Clemons possibly getting on the field. But, this defense is primarily a 4-3 defense, and it added Andre Carter. So, if anything, I think there will be even less 3-4 packages this season than last. In the 4-3, with Marcus playing all downs, when is Clemons going to see the field?

Someone here suggested that CC add 25 lbs of muscle and switch to DE. That may not be a bad idea.

if he did, you would have a second nic clemons... and neither of them is likely to make the squad this season..:lol1:

[Red Bear]

If GW is going to deploy some 3-4 schemes, then I see Clemons possibly getting on the field. But, this defense is primarily a 4-3 defense, and it added Andre Carter. So, if anything, I think there will be even less 3-4 packages this season than last. In the 4-3, with Marcus playing all downs, when is Clemons going to see the field?

Someone here suggested that CC add 25 lbs of muscle and switch to DE. That may not be a bad idea.

i think gregg williams will deploy some 3-4 at times whether we have carter or not, gregg williams isnt going to change what he does for one player. and if havner beats out clemons then you could also say the same thing "when is he going to see the field?" point is some backups never see the field, but perhaps coaches wanted a veteran(clemons) to compete for the backup instead of the unknown(havner) just having it handed to him. most times backups are insurance policies and rarely see the field, and clemons never got much playing time anyways. i dont get why you think moving clemons to the strongside is so bad, competition makes everyone better and compete harder. seems like everything you post, hanburgerbum, has some negative shadow forecasted over it. im not saying clemons is even going to make the team, but i dont think its bad move like everyone else seems to think. and i think it was someone talking about bulking mccune up for DE, not clemons.

[redwolf1218]

http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=17948

One of 10 linebackers on the Redskins' off-season roster, Holdman says he wants to be in as many of Williams' 24 defensive packages as possible and that he's ready for competition in training camp.

"If I'm in all of them, that means I'm doing something right," he added. "I wasn't a first-round pick so I know I have to come out every day and compete."

interesting comment from Holdman. i wonder if that was a jab at Lavar.

[PennSkinsFan]

Another Holdman article

http://www.examiner.com/a-164428~Holdman_a_questionable_holdover.html

[whitskins]

If GW is going to deploy some 3-4 schemes, then I see Clemons possibly getting on the field. But, this defense is primarily a 4-3 defense, and it added Andre Carter. So, if anything, I think there will be even less 3-4 packages this season than last. In the 4-3, with Marcus playing all downs, when is Clemons going to see the field?

Someone here suggested that CC add 25 lbs of muscle and switch to DE. That may not be a bad idea.

I seriously doubt CC could perform at a high level at DE, even with 25 extra pounds of muscle. His pure pass rushing ability is the result of his speed, he doesn't seem like a guy who can battle off blocks on every play, he just finds a seam on the blitz and takes the quickest route to the QB. With the extra muscle I imagine that he'd lose the straight ahead speed that is his best attribute. I think he's fine in the role that we have him in right now.

Also, I don't think his position change is a big deal at all. The only thing this signals is that he is out of the running for the WLB starting job, but I think that was implied already when we drafted Rocky and re-signed Holdman.

Clemons backing up at the strong or weak side won't have much of an impact on when and where he comes in as a pass rushing specialist. His role as a pass rusher will probably be the same as it has been in the past, since the role is so one-dimensional. It doesn't matter if he lines up on the weak or strong side, his job is to rush the QB and I doubt we'll see him on the field to do much of anything else as long as the guy in front of him is healthy.

[Red Bear]

I seriously doubt CC could perform at a high level at DE, even with 25 extra pounds of muscle. His pure pass rushing ability is the result of his speed, he doesn't seem like a guy who can battle off blocks on every play, he just finds a seam on the blitz and takes the quickest route to the QB. With the extra muscle I imagine that he'd lose the straight ahead speed that is his best attribute. I think he's fine in the role that we have him in right now.

Also, I don't think his position change is a big deal at all. The only thing this signals is that he is out of the running for the WLB starting job, but I think that was implied already when we drafted Rocky and re-signed Holdman.

Clemons backing up at the strong or weak side won't have much of an impact on when and where he comes in as a pass rushing specialist. His role as a pass rusher will probably be the same as it has been in the past, since the role is so one-dimensional. It doesn't matter if he lines up on the weak or strong side, his job is to rush the QB and I doubt we'll see him on the field to do much of anything else as long as the guy in front of him is healthy.

exactly

[Redskin4Life]

i would feel really good about Simon and Marshall handling the middle. i'd like to see Simon get plenty of work in there and be able to play some to give Marshall a break once in while.

i think you're right about Havner. i am rooting for him to make it, i think he might be the steal of the draft. i found an article that might explain his freefall out of the draft...

http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/2005/08/09/sections/sports/sports/article_627992.php

Havner, for one, also will be playing them healthier. He had offseason surgery on his shoulder and on his knee, although he said they went in and found nothing in the latter.

All that, and then Havner has his own secret plan for gaining more recognition.

"I'm just going to get irritated," he said. "Very irritated."
This would help with the problems at Will.... Simon could play Mike while Marshall play his old position. Move people around since we've got versatility...