Coles in Sports Illustrated revisited. [Archive]

jporterweb

08-11-2003, 10:28 AM

Sorry to bring this one back up guys, but I picked up SI over the weekend and just read the LC article. It's a whole different spin then what the papers where writing. They were acting like he was some dick towards them, and all he said was that he felt hurt that what was promised him was not given. He admitted that Pennington made him.(though he adds he made pennington). Said it was hard on him having to say Good Bye. So for all you Jets fans that wanna start getting mad because he "dissed" your FO, he didn't do anything of the sort....I suggest you buy the magazine and read the article....

hail2skins

08-11-2003, 10:34 AM

I think some people knew that already but thanks for clearing that up.

rskinsfan10

08-11-2003, 05:48 PM

They read the article jporter, but their extreme disdain for everything that is Coles will result in them making the comments that they make. It's an affliction that at this point has no known cure. We can only hope that the genetic scientist that are charged with the responsibility for finding a cure for this disease will do so within our lifetime.

Chief Seeway

08-11-2003, 06:00 PM

They did the same when Keyshawn(sp?) left. Even today they talk about "meshawn". You gotta believe the new york press is playing the same card.

rskinsfan10

08-11-2003, 09:08 PM

Very true seeway. Keyshawn is still a regular topic of theirs. It's funny to hear them say that he didn't contibute to the SB win and everything else that they mutter. His overall stats for last year, not just in that one game, and the bling-bling on his finger says otherwise. Along with common sense....

nyjunc

08-12-2003, 04:43 AM

I was a HUGE Keysahwn fan and I still am. He was big in the SB, not great stats but had some big catches. We truly have never replaced him since the trade(Coles was great last yera but he does different things well than Key) but I'd do it over again b/c what they got was better than what they let go. If we didn't trade him we wouldn't have John Abraham or Chad Pennington.

I debated this article w/ rskinsfan10 for a while on Sunday. It got heated so there's no reason to start it over again(it's been deleted for some reason). It's time to move on.

rskinsfan10

08-12-2003, 01:10 PM

If you really want to move on, you should not comment on it, as I've told you over and over. A Skins fan here decided he wanted to talk about it more, which he is welcome to do.

For the record, nothing got heated (on my part at least) and nothing got deleted. Nor will this one.

nyjunc

08-12-2003, 02:01 PM

You keep telling me that but apparently you aren't over as you keep posting about it. I need to get our side out so I will comment on as I see the need.

By the way, someone deleted it b/c it's gone.

jporterweb

08-12-2003, 02:06 PM

I do have one thing to ask you nyjunc, Have you read the article?

nyjunc

08-12-2003, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by jporterweb
I do have one thing to ask you nyjunc, Have you read the article?

Yes.

jsarno

08-12-2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by nyjunc
but I'd do it over again b/c what they got was better than what they let go

In reference to Keyshawn, I will agree...but in reference to Coles how is that possible?

nyjunc

08-12-2003, 04:35 PM

I was talking specifically about Key but I think I'd do the Coles move again as well. Trust me I HATED losing him(it's frustrating to watch WRs develop into top tier WRs and then leave in their primes like Key & Coles) but it's better for the franchise. WRs are easier to find than most positions and we'll be fine w/ our trio plus now we have a huge rook DT w/ a world of potential. IF Robertson turns out to be a bust then I will say the 'Skins got the best of the deal but if not I would say it will be a transaction that turns out well for both of us.

jsarno

08-12-2003, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by nyjunc
I was talking specifically about Key but I think I'd do the Coles move again as well. Trust me I HATED losing him(it's frustrating to watch WRs develop into top tier WRs and then leave in their primes like Key & Coles) but it's better for the franchise. WRs are easier to find than most positions and we'll be fine w/ our trio plus now we have a huge rook DT w/ a world of potential. IF Robertson turns out to be a bust then I will say the 'Skins got the best of the deal but if not I would say it will be a transaction that turns out well for both of us.

You have a point. Although if we win a super bowl with Coles, it was clearly better for us...after all, why else would you play?

I don't think you guys have the talent at WR to make it. And poor pennington will take a step BACK this year because of it. The man has talent, but you're only as good as your supporting cast.

jporterweb

08-12-2003, 04:46 PM

yea, but I have a question. What of what Coles said, was so harsh towards the Jets? I mean I saw it that he was basically promised and not given....

nyjunc

08-12-2003, 04:48 PM

I disagree about the talent at WR. No we don't have a WR as good as Coles but Curtis Conway isn't that far behind and Santana Moss is ready to take a leap. Don't forget that Santana was basically a rookie last year as he missed 98% of his 2001 season and after the same # of games his #s are better than Coles and the Jets threw ALOT more when Coles was a rookie. I expect a similar leap from Moss that Coles took from '00 to '01.

Chad Pennington is a star and there isn't a player that I have more confidence in. Trust me, I understand everyone questioning him b/c he only has 1 great year but this guy is special and barring injury will be a great one for many years to come. He's the type of player that makes players better and he has more than enough weapons to get it done.

nyjunc

08-12-2003, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by jporterweb
yea, but I have a question. What of what Coles said, was so harsh towards the Jets? I mean I saw it that he was basically promised and not given....

The article isn't in front of me as I'm still at the office, I don't want to get this article confused w/ others where he has said bad things so I'll wait until I have it in front of me to get specific.

jsarno

08-12-2003, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by nyjunc
I disagree about the talent at WR. No we don't have a WR as good as Coles but Curtis Conway isn't that far behind and Santana Moss is ready to take a leap. Don't forget that Santana was basically a rookie last year as he missed 98% of his 2001 season and after the same # of games his #s are better than Coles and the Jets threw ALOT more when Coles was a rookie. I expect a similar leap from Moss that Coles took from '00 to '01.

Moss is a great talent, I'll give you that, he could be the next Coles, we'll have to wait and see.
Conway...are you kidding me. That guy is a has been. While he'll be a great teacher for the youth, he is not even one notch behind Coles, he's buried in notches behind coles. I like Conway as a compliment WR. A reliable 3rd WR. But ask him to be the ace, and you're in trouble.

Chad Pennington is a star and there isn't a player that I have more confidence in. Trust me, I understand everyone questioning him b/c he only has 1 great year but this guy is special and barring injury will be a great one for many years to come. He's the type of player that makes players better and he has more than enough weapons to get it done.

I think you misunderstood me. I know he's a great talent, and will be around for years. I would love to have him. I'm saying that his cast will not support a repeat of last year, not to mention each QB seems to have a "sophomore" slump from breakout years and don't fully come into their own until the 5th season.

jsarno

08-12-2003, 04:59 PM

here is a list of Conway's career stats:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ConwCu00.htm

Conway has NEVER produced a season like Coles had last year.

Spence

08-12-2003, 04:59 PM

Curtis Conway will go down with an injury. He does every year. This guy is still living off one good year he had in Chicago about 50 years ago. I didn't like that signing at all.

Moss could be a genuine star. I wanted him instead of Gardner back in the 2001 draft. Gardner has come along and become a very nice player [reached 1000 receiving yards in a season first] and has stayed healthier than Moss, but I think Santana has the higher upside. As high as Coles? No. Moss's size will never permit him to be the player Coles is.

nyjunc

08-12-2003, 05:04 PM

] Conway...are you kidding me. That guy is a has been. While he'll be a great teacher for the youth, he is not even one notch behind Coles, he's buried in notches behind coles. I like Conway as a compliment WR. A reliable 3rd WR. But ask him to be the ace, and you're in trouble.

The guy has played w/ some of the worst QBs during his career and 2 years ago he had one of his best seasons and last year was on pace until he was hurt. No he's not as good as Coles but w/ a great QB and alot of talent around him he still has the talent to be a good #1.

I think you misunderstood me. I know he's a great talent, and will be around for years. I would love to have him. I'm saying that his cast will not support a repeat of last year, not to mention each QB seems to have a "sophomore" slump from breakout years and don't fully come into their own until the 5th season.

Actually the only one around him that had a great year last year was Coles. The OL was hurt most of the year, Chrebet came on late, Moss was basically a rookie, Curtis was badly hurt most of the year. This year w/ a healthy OL and healthy Curtis it should really help Chad to continue his great play. He may not put up the same kind of #s but he'll still have a good year(I think).

jsarno

08-12-2003, 05:05 PM

What's the difference in hieght between coles and moss...I was under the impression it was only 1 inch or so.

nyjunc

08-12-2003, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by jsarno
here is a list of Conway's career stats:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ConwCu00.htm

Conway has NEVER produced a season like Coles had last year.

he's also never played w/ a QB like Chad and has never been surrounded w/ the talent he is surrounded w/ now. I'm not expecting him to do what Coles did but I am expecting arond 70 catches for 900+ yards and 6-7 TDs add that to Chrebet and an improved Moss and our Wrs are pretty good.

nyjunc

08-12-2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by jsarno
What's the difference in hieght between coles and moss...I was under the impression it was only 1 inch or so.

According to nfl.com:

Moss is 5'10" 185
Coles is 5'11" 190

They are both short but both are rock solid. I've had the chance to be close to both of them and they are not small by any stretch just short.

jsarno

08-12-2003, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by nyjunc
he's also never played w/ a QB like Chad and has never been surrounded w/ the talent he is surrounded w/ now. I'm not expecting him to do what Coles did but I am expecting arond 70 catches for 900+ yards and 6-7 TDs add that to Chrebet and an improved Moss and our Wrs are pretty good.

That's fan optimism.
Isn't conway slated as your ace WR??? If so, 900 yards is quite low for you're number one.

For the record, he will miss games...porbably 2 or 3, and have only 50 catches or so for 800 yardsish.

I am curious as to how Moss will do.

jsarno

08-12-2003, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by nyjunc
According to nfl.com:

Moss is 5'10" 185
Coles is 5'11" 190

They are both short but both are rock solid. I've had the chance to be close to both of them and they are not small by any stretch just short.

I didn't think there was much difference.

The 15 pounds might be what spence is talking about. But all players as they get older get thicker.

nyjunc

08-12-2003, 05:19 PM

We don't have an "Ace", yeah he'll technically be the #1 but the talk is that Conway, Chrebet & Moss will be getting equal opportunities. So if Conway gets the #s I posted and Chrebet stays in the 50s, gets 700-800 yards and Moss improves from 30 to around 50 and 700-800 yards then we have more than replcaed Coles' production.

nyjunc

08-12-2003, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by jsarno
I didn't think there was much difference.

The 15 pounds might be what spence is talking about. But all players as they get older get thicker.

It's 5 lbs not 15.

jsarno

08-12-2003, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by nyjunc
It's 5 lbs not 15.

Oops, you're right...must have misread it. Hard to see how one inch and 5 pounds can make that much of a difference.

Sorry man, I've been an NFL fan for quite some time, and being completely unbiased here, there is no way you're replacing Coles this year.
I just want you to remember what I said
1- Pennignton will take a step back from his breakout last year (only this year though)
2- Conway will not replace Coles in any form or fashion and will not do as well as you think.
Only Jets fans believe Conway is a good pick up. You better rely on Moss if the passing game is to work at all.

rskinsfan10

08-12-2003, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by nyjunc
You keep telling me that but apparently you aren't over as you keep posting about it. I need to get our side out so I will comment on as I see the need.

By the way, someone deleted it b/c it's gone.

Please don't be confused, You see I wasn't the one that has been running around saying that Coles should shut up. Our side? No one needs your side because he wasn't talking about you. Do we need to go through this again?

Oh, and trust me when I tell you that it wasn't deleted. It was just hidden from YOU. Did your post count suddenly go down 25 notches after that thread was "deleted"? Despite the fact that you say he shouldn't talk, you think that it's cool for you to do what you admonish him for. I have taken it upon myself to assist you in moving on from the subject. I feel so strongly about the cause that I have adopted it as my sig. But then again, here you go again in this thread. You'll respond again, maybe saying that I'm the reason why you keep talking about it. Your will power level is on ZERO. You said that you wanted to move on, but you were having such a difficult time in doing so, so I hooked you up.

PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH!!!

.....sigh.......

JoeDaSchmoe

08-12-2003, 11:02 PM

The Jets can spread the ball around and still have a relatively effective passing game, like the Eagles do. However, Pennington's good, but he's no McNabb. We won't see Mighty Chad running for 600 yards and 8 TDs.

nyjunc

08-13-2003, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by rskinsfan10
Please don't be confused, You see I wasn't the one that has been running around saying that Coles should shut up. Our side? No one needs your side because he wasn't talking about you. Do we need to go through this again?

Oh, and trust me when I tell you that it wasn't deleted. It was just hidden from YOU. Did your post count suddenly go down 25 notches after that thread was "deleted"? Despite the fact that you say he shouldn't talk, you think that it's cool for you to do what you admonish him for. I have taken it upon myself to assist you in moving on from the subject. I feel so strongly about the cause that I have adopted it as my sig. But then again, here you go again in this thread. You'll respond again, maybe saying that I'm the reason why you keep talking about it. Your will power level is on ZERO. You said that you wanted to move on, but you were having such a difficult time in doing so, so I hooked you up.

PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH!!!

.....sigh.......

You crack me up, you are doing everything you are whining about me doing except I had a reason for it and you do not. You are hiding me from topics b/c you only want a 1-sided homeristic point a view rather than the truth. Agaian I have repeatedly said Iw as moving on only to watch you come back w/ a shot at me. I have been posting here for a few weeks and haven't had even the smallest problem w/ anyone except you- I wonder why that is?

jporterweb

08-13-2003, 08:17 AM

Because you don't know what you are talking about. And just as he posted, you won't let it die. You HAVE to get the last word in, you can't resist. That's what he was talking about there. You cry about what Coles said in a n article, and what he said was very mature, he had every right to say it, and it was not an attack against anyone. So...if you truly want to drop it, stop replying.

jsarno

08-13-2003, 09:31 AM

OK, this is getting childish. I was going to PM everyone, but since it's been brought here by everyone, I will too.

1- rskinsfan10, you know I like you and we share similar views, but I think you could have easily set an example here and stopped repling. You appear to have to get the last word here, and your last post was BEGGING for a response. I don't see how you expect him to stop with some of your replies.
2- doesn't everyone have the right to have differing opinions???? So what if nyjunc was completely incorrect about his take on Coles. He has that right to have that opinion.
3- nyjunc. I can see you're strongly opinionated, which I find nothing wrong with personally. I do not find you to be "trying" to piss anyone off, but you do seem to be pushing buttons. I know you know this. My suggestion would be just to let it go. Redskins fans will not see it your way no matter how much you protest and that's fine. But what is the point of pointing blame over and over again? Just remember that you are on a redskins site and some things come with the territory. Not only that, but rskinsfan10 is a moderator here, and as such deserves a certain level of respect. If he asks you not to reply, then you don't. I understand your desire to, but after that is said, any further comments should be addressed in the form of a PM.
Other than this going back and forth, I find your replys to have some intellegence, and football knowledge. You're a little (a lot) Jets biased, but there's nothing wrong with that. I look forward to more conversations with you, and I hope this will not discourage you from future posts with us. If for nothing else, you definitely bring a different perspective to hailredskins, and I for one value that.
So please guys...let's drop it.

jporterweb

08-13-2003, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by jsarno
2- doesn't everyone have the right to have differing opinions???? So what if nyjunc was completely incorrect about his take on Coles. He has that right to have that opinion.

I will drop this, but I have one comment. Sure he has a right to his opinion, but at the same time we have a right to tell him that he is dead wrong. If he would just accept that we think he is dead wrong instead of continuing to TRY to shove his view down my throat, then fine. However he could not do this. He had to continue to shove his opinion...so, I shoved mine right back....It's what healthy debate is all about. Has nothing to do with being childish. nyjunc, has continually said that he wants to drop it in this thread and in the other that is no longer on the forums. However, he will not drop it. If rskins is anything like myself, I will run stuff like this in the ground. However, if I want to drop it, I drop it. I just ignore the person let them think they won or whatever. I in this case had no intention of dropping it, and only would upon having no one to debate with on it.

jsarno

08-13-2003, 11:41 AM

Pennington will not be the same QB this season. If you take away the first 3 weeks (combined for 71 yards and 1 int.) He averaged 234.5 yards a week, which is very good. Only once did he throw for 300+, and he threw 22tds, and only 5int's (6int's total). (also very good)
Also, with the exeption of Miami, he played vs poor or sub par defenses all season.
Losing his #1 target WILL hurt. Sorry, unless you replace Coles with a pro bowler, that will hurt, and pennington will suffer. Pennington will throw many more INT's, and throw for fewer yards per game. I see a 3200 yard season with maybe 19-22 tds with at least 15 int's. He had an amazing 69% completion rate, and that can't be held. He'll have an ok to good season this year because all the teams will key on him, and his losing his best player and not to mention a GREAT guard will hurt.
If you think I'm wrong,just wait, and the Jets will prove me right.

rskinsfan10

08-13-2003, 05:32 PM

JSARNO

Within your attempt to get involved in this, you are missing some key elements.

First, nyjunc has a serious problem with Coles and his rights to comment as he pleases about his feelings for the Jets FO . There is a whole thread with him and I having this same discussion that occured over the weekend when you were not around, so you are jumping feet first into a debate that you aren't totally up to par with. It has nothing to do with having to have the last word. It has everything to do with him saying that he wants to move on but he clearly cannot. That is why I said what I said to him, to give you the satisfaction of gaining a little more ensight into what is going on here. Having said all of that, please remain on the outside of this discussion that I'm having with nyjunc, since it does not pertain to you.

And for the 1,000,000 time around here, there seems to be this "you cannot disagree with the admins" element that is running rampant around this forum. It is ridiculous and really needs to stop, since it is the furthest from the truth. We wouldn't have any members here if that was the case. It would only be a little romper room for the 5 owners/admins.

Thank you.

jsarno

08-13-2003, 05:48 PM

so what does everyone else think about what I said about Pennington?

nyjunc

08-13-2003, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by jsarno
so what does everyone else think about what I said about Pennington?

I think you are wrong. He's not a #s QB, it's true he didn't throw for alot of yards but he guided the O to alot of TDs and that is the most important stat PLUS he did it w/o a running game most of the season as Curtis Martin was hurt. This year w/ a healthy Curtis he will be very good even w/o his top target from a year ago. Chad is the best play action faker in the NFL and he did it last year w/o the benefit of a strong running game, if they get the ground game going like they should it will make him that much more effective.

He lost Coles but he still has a ton of weapons. He has Martin, Moss, Chrebet, Conway, Jordan, Becht, Baker, Sowell. He has alot of weapons. Trust me this guy is special, I don't heap this kind of praise on anyone. When this guy stepped on the field last year and they were 2-4 he said the Jets would win the division and they did. I have complete faith in this guy and I expect doubters even from some Jet fans b/c he does have to prove he's not a 1 year wonder but after this year that will never be discussed again, I guarantee it(barring injury of course).

dj_stouty

08-13-2003, 09:24 PM

Conway sucks....

:mad:

He is the twin of Marcus Robinson...another former Bears player who had ONE great season...but gets hurt every year.

Conway and Chrebet are jokes of a WR tandem. I hope for the Jets sake that Moss breaks out.

nyjunc

08-14-2003, 04:21 AM

Originally posted by dj_stouty
Conway sucks....

:mad:

He is the twin of Marcus Robinson...another former Bears player who had ONE great season...but gets hurt every year.

Conway and Chrebet are jokes of a WR tandem. I hope for the Jets sake that Moss breaks out.

2 years ago he had 71 catches, 1,125 yds, 15.8 avg, 6 TDs

That's a great year considering he was playing w/ Flutie who was horrible that year.

Last year he was on pace for his best season of his career until he missed a few games. No he's not as good Coles but he'll do ok here now that he has a top notch QB and alot of talent around him.

jsarno

08-14-2003, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by nyjunc

That's a great year considering he was playing w/ Flutie who was horrible that year.

Flutie had his best year yards wise in 2001 with 3464 yards. A CAREER HIGH. That's more than your stud pennington last year, so how is that "horrible"?

You'll see about pennington. I know he's talented, and he will be a good qb. But you can't expect him to duplicate his great breakout numbers with a worse team. You're underestimating other teams and strategies. On every war board in the opponants rooms it will say "stop pennington". He's got a big target on his chest this year.

nyjunc

08-14-2003, 12:44 PM

Flutie had his best year yards wise in 2001 with 3464 yards. A CAREER HIGH. That's more than your stud pennington last year, so how is that "horrible"?

He also threw the ball 521 times. He threw ONLY 15 TDs and 18 INTs, that's horrible. His completion % was 56%. Chad threw the ball 399 times and had only 344 less yards while throwing 22 TDs and only 6 INTs(2 of which were hail mary's) and his comp % was 69%.

You'll see about pennington. I know he's talented, and he will be a good qb. But you can't expect him to duplicate his great breakout numbers with a worse team.

That's the thing, the team isn't worse, it's just different. Last year we had a top tier WR and this year we do not, last year we didn't have a normal Curtis Martin and this year we should. Our OL is also healthy and Chad has experience. Our O will be very good.

jsarno

08-14-2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by nyjunc
He also threw the ball 521 times. He threw ONLY 15 TDs and 18 INTs, that's horrible. His completion % was 56%. Chad threw the ball 399 times and had only 344 less yards while throwing 22 TDs and only 6 INTs(2 of which were hail mary's) and his comp % was 69%.

You don't seem to get that 69% is something will no way on this earth be duplicated.
Dan Marino's best season was 64.2% (coincidentally that was his breakout season)
Joe Montana had a career best 70.2% in 89, but the next best % was 66.8% and a career of 63.2%. (he is widely regarded as the best accuracy passer of all time)
John Elway's best season was only 63.2%. So I think it's pretty safe to say Pennington's 69% was more of a one year thing. History tells us this. Not many can sustain a 60%+ throughout their career.
If not, he's going to be the best damn qb the world has seen. We obviously don't see eye to eye on this, and that's cool. Since I have no ill feelings toward the Jets (especially since half my team is ex jets hahaha) I wish Pennington and the jets all the success. (well as long as they don't face us! hehe)

That's the thing, the team isn't worse, it's just different.

I guess that's a matter of opinion. You replaced All world Randy Thomas with Tom Nutten, Coles with Conway, Hall with Doug Brien, Matt Turk with Dan Stryzinski, Jumbo Elliott with Brent Smith. The loss of Richie Anderson doesn't help either. In all those I just mentioned, you took a step back. I find it hard to believe they didn't get worse.
Not only that, but the Patriots, Bills AND Dolphins all got better in the offseason, so there won't be as many W's to go around.
I guarentee you won't win the division. (yes I feel that strongly) And given the division is so tough, a wild card more than likely will not come out of that division.
I understand the optimism. Hey, it's the one time of year all teams are equal, and you never know!
"ANY GIVEN SUNDAY..."

Last year we had a top tier WR and this year we do not, last year we didn't have a normal Curtis Martin and this year we should. Our OL is also healthy and Chad has experience. Our O will be very good.

You did have a "normal" curtis martin, you just didn't get him til about week 5. The healthy Martin is what helped you do as well as you did, and freed up Pennington.
All I'm saying is, if you're expecting last year's pennington to be here year in and year out, your expectations are too high. 69% and a +16 td to int ratio is not normal. Things don't stay the same, and defenses don't sit on last year's info. DC's rack their brains in the offseason with new plans of attack. Things WILL be different this season. With the losses you sustained, I have to believe that you are now the weak link in the AFC east. (which isn't as bad a knock as you think, that division is just freakin TOUGH!)

Spence

08-14-2003, 02:11 PM

If Conway is healthy he is a good [not great] wideout. You can't count on him to be healthy, though. Here are the games he has played in seasons since 1997:

1997 -- 7
1998 -- 15
1999 -- 9
2000 -- 14
2001 -- 16
2002 -- 13

Not terrible, but he's not Jerry Rice either. His production in those seasons where he has played 12+ games has been pretty good and he would have totaled more than 1000 receiving yards last year had he played 16 games. His production probably won't match Laveranues Coles, but Conway is a good player when healthy. Of course, he has 10 years in the league under his belt and turned 32 last January. He probably does not have many good years left. Maybe two. Probably just one.