Choosing a Premiership Team...

[SkinsKY]

So, I've been interested in following soccer for some time, but MLS isn't drawing my interest, and I'm thinking about adopting an EPL team to cheer for. The problem though is how do I choose one. This issue came about before I read Bill Simmons' column this morning, but I did identify with it.

So for you Americans, how did you come about cheering for the teams you do, be it English, Italian, Spanish or otherwise? To those who grew up abroad cheering for a particular team, what advice would you give? Or, if you care to give a pitch on why I should support your team, I'm all ears.

I am leaning in certain directions, but I'll leave those until a little later when I might hear from some people.

Here is Simmons' article if anyone is interested:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060719

[akhhorus]

Well, where I grew up always showed Italian football on sunday mornings, and the games were always either Milan or Juventus, and my brother was a HUGE Milan fan(and now a Man U fan) and I became a Juve fan(Platini, DeSchamps, Laudrup and Baggio were my favorites) and haven't stopped following them since. I would join Fent and I as Juve fans if I were you, because while they are down in B now(although Buffon has decided to stay loyal and stay with Juve), but they'll be back soon enough and have the whole "big chip on my shoulder"-"Scores to settle" vibe going.


Oh, and don't listen to Spicy and BC. Both of their teams are contenders this year, but only because Juve and Milan were penalized. Roma and Inter ALWAYS find a way to blow it in Serie A and are never really a threat(think the Jets and Eagles).

[fent]

I concur. You have to go with Juve. They have great players, the unis are AWESOME, and you know they'll always do what they need to do to be competitive. Once they get back into Serie A, which should be next season with all the major players coming back, they'll be motivated beyond belief. They're the Redskins of Serie A and arguably the most storied club in Soccer.

http://www.ilcalcio.net/immagini/juventus.jpg

[SkinsKY]

Well, where I grew up always showed Italian football on sunday mornings, and the games were always either Milan or Juventus, and my brother was a HUGE Milan fan(and now a Man U fan) and I became a Juve fan(Platini, DeSchamps, Laudrup and Baggio were my favorites) and haven't stopped following them since. I would join Fent and I as Juve fans if I were you, because while they are down in B now(although Buffon has decided to stay loyal and stay with Juve), but they'll be back soon enough and have the whole "big chip on my shoulder"-"Scores to settle" vibe going.


Oh, and don't listen to Spicy and BC. Both of their teams are contenders this year, but only because Juve and Milan were penalized. Roma and Inter ALWAYS find a way to blow it in Serie A and are never really a threat(think the Jets and Eagles).

Do any of the games get shown over here without paying for some overpriced cable or satellite package?

[akhhorus]

Do any of the games get shown over here without paying for some overpriced cable or satellite package?

Well, they would, if they were in the Champions League, but its doubtful you'll see much of them via TV for at least a year. But I don't get to watch them much in the last 4-5 years, and I'm still as mega fan. The thing is that ESPN(2, an deportes) will primarly show the EPL, Barcelona and Real Madrid.

[fent]

Well, they would, if they were in the Champions League, but its doubtful you'll see much of them via TV for at least a year. But I don't get to watch them much in the last 4-5 years, and I'm still as mega fan.

after this year, you'll see them about as much as any other team.

[danny's stogie]

I don't know how you can root for any team other than Newcastle after reading Simmons' breakdown.

[SkinsKY]

I don't know how you can root for any team other than Newcastle after reading Simmons' breakdown.

I play as Newcastle in FIFA 06 because they were the best team to offer me a job in the EPL.

I think it would be hard for me to start off following a team and not being able to see them play, so it might be hard for me to hop on Juve. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it makes it harder to drum up interest. I'm not sure how much it is to add the sports pack to my cable, but I may see about that. I thought Telemundo or Univision showed games, but I don't know if it's only Mexican teams or who else they might include.

[fent]

I play as Newcastle in FIFA 06 because they were the best team to offer me a job in the EPL.

I think it would be hard for me to start off following a team and not being able to see them play, so it might be hard for me to hop on Juve. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it makes it harder to drum up interest. I'm not sure how much it is to add the sports pack to my cable, but I may see about that. I thought Telemundo or Univision showed games, but I don't know if it's only Mexican teams or who else they might include.

those are just Mexican league games unless there's a MAJOR game going on somewhere.

[akhhorus]

I play as Newcastle in FIFA 06 because they were the best team to offer me a job in the EPL.

I think it would be hard for me to start off following a team and not being able to see them play, so it might be hard for me to hop on Juve. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it makes it harder to drum up interest. I'm not sure how much it is to add the sports pack to my cable, but I may see about that. I thought Telemundo or Univision showed games, but I don't know if it's only Mexican teams or who else they might include.

I don't think you understand. Fent and I aren't presenting you with a choice.

[akhhorus]

those are just Mexican league games unless there's a MAJOR game going on somewhere.

And its doubtful(unless you want to shell out a few hundred bucks) that you will see more than 2 games of any team on US TV. Go with Juve!

[SkinsKY]

I don't think you understand. Fent and I aren't presenting you with a choice.

Ahh, I miseed that part. I did become somewhat of a Buffon fan during the cup, so we'll see. It's hard in some ways for me to make the switch to Italian leagues because I at least have a minimal knowledge of the English teams but know next to nothing about Italian teams.

Why are the Italian leagues better than English (or vice versa if you don't feel that way)?

[fent]

Ahh, I miseed that part. I did become somewhat of a Buffon fan during the cup, so we'll see. It's hard in some ways for me to make the switch to Italian leagues because I at least have a minimal knowledge of the English teams but know next to nothing about Italian teams.

Why are the Italian leagues better than English (or vice versa if you don't feel that way)?

i prefer the italian leagues because they are generally more defensively sound and play a counter attacking style that i like. their also isn't as much hype about them as their is the EPL.

[Seebs]

My take would be just try to catch some soccer games and just enjoy the beauty of the game.It's sometimles difficult to appreciate when you are a diehard for a team. I often say that I'm not a soccer fan, I'm a PSG fan.
the truth is that I have one team I love and other I like or I'm not offended with. EPL is overrated. I've always liked Real more than Barca, but currently I like more Barca because of the players. Just chill for the good games.
Good ol'tactical and technical is in the Latin Europe. So going Italian or Spanish is better. (well, you should support the team of the greatest city in the world ;) but I'll give you a pass on this one).
I've always liked Juve because of Platini, even if we have some rivalry with it.

[akhhorus]

Ahh, I miseed that part. I did become somewhat of a Buffon fan during the cup, so we'll see. It's hard in some ways for me to make the switch to Italian leagues because I at least have a minimal knowledge of the English teams but know next to nothing about Italian teams.

Why are the Italian leagues better than English (or vice versa if you don't feel that way)?

Ill let Spicy give you the Masters Thesis on the subject, but I enjoy Italian football more than English football just for the level of play. English teams(those not named Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool or Arsenal) aren't that good(ducks the cinder block thrown by GD). Italian teams, even mid level Serie A teams have talent on them and play well. And the big teams(Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Fiorentina, I guess you could make the case for Parma also) are just loaded with talent and all play good soccer. The best teams in England can't say that. Its a much rougher quality game in England and more of a tacticial/strategic struggle in Italy. For example; Juve, despite dumping a ton talent from their roster and heading to Serie B, will still have starting XI who are better and play better than 80% of the EPL.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

So, I've been interested in following soccer for some time, but MLS isn't drawing my interest, and I'm thinking about adopting an EPL team to cheer for. The problem though is how do I choose one. This issue came about before I read Bill Simmons' column this morning, but I did identify with it.

So for you Americans, how did you come about cheering for the teams you do, be it English, Italian, Spanish or otherwise? To those who grew up abroad cheering for a particular team, what advice would you give? Or, if you care to give a pitch on why I should support your team, I'm all ears.

I am leaning in certain directions, but I'll leave those until a little later when I might hear from some people.

Here is Simmons' article if anyone is interested:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060719
It's very simple. If you like teams like the Yankees or Cowboys, you'll feel right at home cheering for Juventus. And I'm not just saying this to make fun of Akh and Fent, it's actually the truth...Juve is a classic bandwagon team, along with Inter and Milan..in fact, their fans are spread out all across Italy, EXCEPT for the city of Turin, because all real Turin people cheer for Torino (Juve's stadium, the Delle Alpi, is ALWAYS empty), while Juve's fans are mostly people from southern Italy who started cheering for Juve during the 60's and 70's when there were no Serie A teams in regions like Sicily and Calabria..
Juve is also obviously the most hated team in Italy (just like the Yankees or Cowboys..you either love them or hate them) because they have built a history of winning with their power (thanks to FIAT) and their influence (and not just now with the scandal like some would think (those that think that should get a history lesson)..
Milan is very similar to Juve, but less hideous...if you absolutely want to choose a team that will win once every two years because it has way more money than anybody else, choose them, but not Juve..they have the added bonus of doing well in Champions League, and they tend to play a more spectacular tipe of soccer than Juve...
If you want to suffer greatly, be let down every year, be a fan of a team with a retarded president, and basically cheer for the New York Mets or the New York Knicks, then pick Inter. There is however absolutely no reason you should put yourself throught this tunnel of pain and suffering.
That leaves 4 teams in my opinion. Roma, Lazio, Fiorentina, and Napoli.
I would leave Napoli out, because for a wide variety of reasons, you HAVE to be born in Naples to be a fan of Napoli. It's too long to explain, but just trust me on this.
There is no way in the world I could advise you to choose Lazio because that would be like you trying to convince me to cheer for the Eagles or something. If you are interested in them, ask for someone else's advice, because mine would not be honest. Oh but if you are a fascist, Lazio might be an excellent choice.
That leaves 2 teams. Roma and Fiorentina. They are the 2 teams with the most loyal and rabid fan base (Roma more than Fiorentina, but they match up pretty well), the most beautiful cities, the best stadiums, the proudest history, they both DESPISE Juve and Milan, they can't outbuy everybody so they are a good balance of enjoyment and suffering...I'm obviously biased towards Roma, but Fiorentina would be a good choice too.
So if you decide to pick an Italian team (and now is not the best time actually), my advice would be this: ignore the present situation, don't choose based on the scandal or based on what team is in which situation right now, look at the overall picture, and choose either Roma or Fiorentina (but that's just my advice..akh and fent are proof that you can be nice guys and cheer for the wrong team :) )

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I concur. You have to go with Juve. They have great players, the unis are AWESOME, and you know they'll always do what they need to do to be competitive. Once they get back into Serie A, which should be next season with all the major players coming back, they'll be motivated beyond belief. They're the Redskins of Serie A and arguably the most storied club in Soccer.

http://www.ilcalcio.net/immagini/juventus.jpg
Fent, you know I think you're a cool guy and all, but that is just FALSE (and you really should review your facts if you believe this). There are absolutely no points in common between the Skins and Juventus. Juventus are the definition of the Yankees, only with a much less passionate fan base.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Ahh, I miseed that part. I did become somewhat of a Buffon fan during the cup, so we'll see. It's hard in some ways for me to make the switch to Italian leagues because I at least have a minimal knowledge of the English teams but know next to nothing about Italian teams.

Why are the Italian leagues better than English (or vice versa if you don't feel that way)?
It depends on what you are looking for.
From a fan standpoint, all 4 major leagues present the same problem: the same teams ALWAYS win, so basically you know beforehand if you are gonna be winning the title once every two years from the moment you choose the team.
If you are interested in this, then you have the following choices: Bayern Munich in Germany, Juve and Milan in Italy, Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal in England, and Real and Barcellona in Spain. If not, there are other options.
From a level of play standpoint, the Italian league is much better tactically than the other teams. The defensive organization, the trainers, the preparation, are all way ahead of the Premier League.
The Premier League probably is more "pure" and enjoyable for somebody who is more interested in physical play, good rough tackles, and a GREAT atmosphere.
If you are looking for spectacular play and great offensive team (but horrible defensive ones, you might try the Liga. Teams there prefer to tie 4-4 than to win 1-0.

[fent]

Fent, you know I think you're a cool guy and all, but that is just FALSE (and you really should review your facts if you believe this). There are absolutely no points in common between the Skins and Juventus. Juventus are the definition of the Yankees, only with a much less passionate fan base.

even as a redskins fan, i have to be honest and say that the redskins do exactly what Juve and the Yankees do, and that's throw all kinds of cash in front of the best players. my comment is in reference to the "do whatever is necessary to be competitive."

[SpicyMcHaggis]

even as a redskins fan, i have to be honest and say that the redskins do exactly what Juve and the Yankees do, and that's throw all kinds of cash in front of the best players. my comment is in reference to the "do whatever is necessary to be competitive."
Yes, Juve does whatever is necessary to be competitive. They cheat, they drug their players, they buy out teams not to be demoted to Serie B, they tamper with players who are under contract with other teams (Cannavaro)..I don't recall the Skins being involved in stuff like that (except maybe the rumored tampering).
As for the throwing money at players, a more fair comparison would be Milan or Inter actually..they throw all kinds of money at players (Milan intelligently, Inter not)..Juventus controls (or controlled up until last year) the player and coach market, so they really did not have to as much.

[fent]

Yes, Juve does whatever is necessary to be competitive. They cheat, they drug their players, they buy out teams not to be demoted to Serie B, they tamper with players who are under contract with other teams (Cannavaro)..I don't recall the Skins being involved in stuff like that (except maybe the rumored tampering).
As for the throwing money at players, a more fair comparison would be Milan or Inter actually..they throw all kinds of money at players (Milan intelligently, Inter not)..Juventus controls (or controlled up until last year) the player and coach market, so they really did not have to as much.

so if you're throwing out the Redskins as a comparison because of the bolded statement, then are you accusing the cowboys and yankees of these crimes? and anyone that thinks football players aren't doped is kidding themselves.

[akhhorus]

Yes, Juve does whatever is necessary to be competitive. They cheat, they drug their players, they buy out teams not to be demoted to Serie B, they tamper with players who are under contract with other teams (Cannavaro)..I don't recall the Skins being involved in stuff like that (except maybe the rumored tampering).
As for the throwing money at players, a more fair comparison would be Milan or Inter actually..they throw all kinds of money at players (Milan intelligently, Inter not)..Juventus controls (or controlled up until last year) the player and coach market, so they really did not have to as much.

Link (http://www.nomorejealousy.com/)

[fent]

Link (http://www.nomorejealousy.com/)

LMAO!!!!!!

[SpicyMcHaggis]

so if you're throwing out the Redskins as a comparison because of the bolded statement, then are you accusing the cowboys and yankees of these crimes?
No, absolutely not..I compared them to the Yankees and Cowboys because, like the Yankees and Cowboys, they are the most hated team, the most successful one (buy Juve at least partially by cheating), the one with by far the largest number of bandwagon fans, the most powerful one, the one that thinks they are "THE" team (like the Cowboys), the one with the most number of bitter rivals (Roma, Fiorentina, Torino, Napoli, Inter..), the most arrogant one...etc. etc.
Juve has the added bonus of cheating, living in a horrible city, and having no real fanbase...
I understand you're gonna disagree with me and that it's difficult to have a very clear view of the atmosphere that surrounds Juve without having lived in Italy, but the similarity to those 2 teams, especially the Yankees, is really astonishing..

[akhhorus]

It's very simple. If you like teams like the Yankees or Cowboys, you'll feel right at home cheering for Juventus. And I'm not just saying this to make fun of Akh and Fent, it's actually the truth...Juve is a classic bandwagon team, along with Inter and Milan..in fact, their fans are spread out all across Italy,...... look at the overall picture, and choose either Roma or Fiorentina (but that's just my advice..akh and fent are proof that you can be nice guys and cheer for the wrong team :) )

I am offended by this. I didn't just jump on the Juve bandwagon because they were winners. I've been rooting for them since I was a small child. Even when they struggled, no matter what. RedskinsDave isn't a bandwagon fan for the Yanks, because he's been a fan of theirs forever. If you want to be bitter about how we've been the most successful team ever in the Serie A(and bring up every sin you can think of), go ahead. Enjoy your year or two window for Roma to win a title, thats all you have. And then we'll be back in the Serie A.

[akhhorus]

LMAO!!!!!!

Don't forget to tip your waitresses!

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Link (http://www.nomorejealousy.com/)
:lol1:
But really, akh, you know I'm not jealous...I wouldn't give up being a Roma fan for anything in the world (or a Skins fan for that matter)..and I dare you to find me one incorrect thing I have said in this thread!

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I am offended by this. I didn't just jump on the Juve bandwagon because they were winners. I've been rooting for them since I was a small child. Even when they struggled, no matter what. RedskinsDave isn't a bandwagon fan for the Yanks, because he's been a fan of theirs forever. If you want to be bitter about how we've been the most successful team ever in the Serie A(and bring up every sin you can think of), go ahead. Enjoy your year or two window for Roma to win a title, thats all you have. And then we'll be back in the Serie A.
You got me all wrong...I wasn't accusing you or Dave of being bandwagon fans..I said that Juve is by far the team with the most bandwagon fans..that does not mean that ALL their fans are bandwagon..and once more, I'm not bitter or jealous..I've just explained what the situation is..and I've stated facts, not personal opinions..at least for me, it's not just about winning a title..I would cheer for Roma even if we were the equivalent of the Clippers..

Edit: Oh and if you were offended by the last sentence, I was just kidding obviously!!

[akhhorus]

:lol1:
But really, akh, you know I'm not jealous...I wouldn't give up being a Roma fan for anything in the world (or a Skins fan for that matter)..and I dare you to find me one incorrect thing I have said in this thread!

The problem is that you have a hierarchical system which rewards consistant winning(and you have to consistantly win to stay ahead of everyone else because the talent distribution isn't even), and with the same 6 or so teams who are in the mix every year, you will have cheating and such in these teams to make sure they stay on top. The same thing happens in college sports here in the US. If you want to fix cheating in Soccer, you will have to junk the whole transfer system(which rewards teams who stay on top) and go to American style drafts and free agency(which will make sure that the bottom rungs get talent also). Until that happens, there will always be scandals like this.

[flave1969]

Ill let Spicy give you the Masters Thesis on the subject, but I enjoy Italian football more than English football just for the level of play. English teams(those not named Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool or Arsenal) aren't that good(ducks the cinder block thrown by GD). Italian teams, even mid level Serie A teams have talent on them and play well. And the big teams(Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Fiorentina, I guess you could make the case for Parma also) are just loaded with talent and all play good soccer. The best teams in England can't say that. Its a much rougher quality game in England and more of a tacticial/strategic struggle in Italy. For example; Juve, despite dumping a ton talent from their roster and heading to Serie B, will still have starting XI who are better and play better than 80% of the EPL.


Akh, Juve will be better than 80% of the teams in Serie A, despite dumping the talent. That doesnt mean anything put the Top Four teams of any of the major leagues into another and they will be better than 80% of the remaining teams. Juves record against the best of the Premiership since 96 is 5-8-3, hardly sparkling. The upper echelons of Football are better than the other 80%

You listed all those talented teams above and some do play good football, but putting the Italian league on a pedestal is somewhat misleading. We see two live Italian games a week which I watch and frankly I turned off most of the games not involving the top teams and even some involving them. I find it really boring these days. In the 90's Italian football was great but its decline and the rise of La Liga have been marked in my eyes. This Juve team is nothing compared to the team of Baggio, Vialli and Ravenelli, and even more compared to the team of Platini, Boniek and Brady.

Since Parma won in 1998 there has not been a Single Italian team in the UEFA Cup final, that is 7 seasons. Middlesborough finished 13th I think in the Premiership, yet made the UEFA Cup Final last year. As for the Champions League, One winner in the last 10 seasons is not indicative of the better league, maybe you arent saying that Serie A is the better league, I dont know. But La Liga, the Bundesliga and the Premiership have all had more winners and as many finalists.

Every league has its heydays, Football is cyclical. There wasnt a single Italian winner from 1969 until 1985. Then AC became the dominant force, Juve made three consecutive finals but since then it has been La Liga that has provided the most winners and finalists.

The fact is 80% of games are not great spectacles no matter what the league, unless your team is involved. Then is doesnt matter the quality of the game, you just want to win.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

The problem is that you have a hierarchical system which rewards consistant winning(and you have to consistantly win to stay ahead of everyone else because the talent distribution isn't even), and with the same 6 or so teams who are in the mix every year, you will have cheating and such in these teams to make sure they stay on top. The same thing happens in college sports here in the US. If you want to fix cheating in Soccer, you will have to junk the whole transfer system(which rewards teams who stay on top) and go to American style drafts and free agency(which will make sure that the bottom rungs get talent also). Until that happens, there will always be scandals like this.
This is simply false.
First of all, there are not 6 competitive teams. There are 3, one of which fails consistently due to stupidity. (what are the other 3?)
Secondly, the reason the same teams always win is because of money and power and that unfortunately is a problem that will not be fixed. Drafts are impossible because there is no college system to choose from. The teams instead have youth squads. The better ones keep the players they grow (Francesco Totti or Paolo Maldini), the lesser ones sell theirs to stay alive (Del Piero or Zambrotta to name a few). And obviously we import players from other countries. And we already have free agency, but it obviously doesn't work fairly without a salary cap or limitations to the numbers of players a team can have. This too in unfixable because it would take a european-wide agreement. Another huge problem is that TV contracts are discussed individually, and so Juve, Milan and Inter make around 200 million for 3 or 4 years, Roma maybe 150, Lazio and Fiorentina less than 100, and all the others don't even reach 20. This could be fixed and they are working on it fortunately. Of course it would probably have helped if the 2 networks that own the TV rights weren't one the sponsor of Juventus, and the other owned by Berlusconi, which is the owner of Milan. That's like Snyder owning the NFL Network and ESPN being the official sponsor of the Cowboys.
As for the scandals, you make it sound like all the teams do this. That's false. Inter has never been involved in scandals. Roma neither. Fiorentina and Lazio were involved in this one because they were blackmailed by the system Juve had put in place (why do you think they got lesser penalties?). It was either pledge allegiance to our system or go down to Serie B for them, which would have meant bankrupcy for at least Lazio. Napoli, Bologna, Torino, Sampdoria, and all the other teams have all been clean forever. Milan was involved in a betting scandal that involved only the players in the early 80's, and in a lesser role in this one. There is ONE team that sticks out: Juventus. They have been involved (and found guilty) in a steroids scandal and in this one, just in recent years. Dating back years, they have blatantly taken advantage of favorable refs an incredible number of times. And I don't know if you have a clear picture of Juve's role in this scandal. It's not that they bought a few games. Moggi was choosing the refs for all the games in Serie A. Not just Juve's games, all of them. He was threatening teams not to give them TV contracts if they didn't sell them their players (Emerson). He called sports show hosts and told them exactly what to say and when to say it, in order to influence the general opinion and convince people they were playing fair.
So really, I don't think it's fair to dismiss Juve's crimes by saying "oh, every team does it". Because that's just not true.

[akhhorus]

This is simply false.
First of all, there are not 6 competitive teams. There are 3, one of which fails consistently due to stupidity. (what are the other 3?)

I would call Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio and Fiorentina the top of Italian soccer. Thats just my opinion though.

Secondly, the reason the same teams always win is because of money and power and that unfortunately is a problem that will not be fixed.

I didn't think it was a realistically implimented solution. But I think its the only solution to this problem.

Drafts are impossible because there is no college system to choose from. The teams instead have youth squads.

No, but you could reorganize it and have the drafting from the lower leagues.

The better ones keep the players they grow (Francesco Totti or Paolo Maldini), the lesser ones sell theirs to stay alive (Del Piero or Zambrotta to name a few). And obviously we import players from other countries. And we already have free agency, but it obviously doesn't work fairly without a salary cap or limitations to the numbers of players a team can have. This too in unfixable because it would take a european-wide agreement. Another huge problem is that TV contracts are discussed individually, and so Juve, Milan and Inter make around 200 million for 3 or 4 years, Roma maybe 150, Lazio and Fiorentina less than 100, and all the others don't even reach 20. This could be fixed and they are working on it fortunately. Of course it would probably have helped if the 2 networks that own the TV rights weren't one the sponsor of Juventus, and the other owned by Berlusconi, which is the owner of Milan. That's like Snyder owning the NFL Network and ESPN being the official sponsor of the Cowboys.

Nothing you've said contradicts anything I've said. The problem is institutional. And this is the same problem that American College sports has.

As for the scandals, you make it sound like all the teams do this. That's false. Inter has never been involved in scandals. Roma neither. Fiorentina and Lazio were involved in this one because they were blackmailed by the system Juve had put in place (why do you think they got lesser penalties?). It was either pledge allegiance to our system or go down to Serie B for them, which would have meant bankrupcy for at least Lazio. Napoli, Bologna, Torino, Sampdoria, and all the other teams have all been clean forever. Milan was involved in a betting scandal that involved only the players in the early 80's, and in a lesser role in this one. There is ONE team that sticks out: Juventus.

And if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you. I'm sorry, but your hatred for Juve is just getting ridiculous now. Inter, Milan and Lazio are as crooked as a plane full of snakes, and you're acting like Juve is the only criminal in Italian soccer. Now, Juve has gotten caught(and to a lesser extent Milan), but I do not buy for one second than there are "clean" teams in Serie A.

They have been involved (and found guilty) in a steroids scandal and in this one, just in recent years.

And that scandal also implicated Milan, Lazio and a few other teams. And they never knew the whole scope of the problem. Also, the ONLY Juve player who was implicated was Davids, and more Milan players were accused.

Dating back years, they have blatantly taken advantage of favorable refs an incredible number of times.

And have been screwed by refs plenty of times also. The whole Lazio-Collins debacle comes immediately to mind. Ronaldo's phantom penalty was another.

And I don't know if you have a clear picture of Juve's role in this scandal. It's not that they bought a few games. Moggi was choosing the refs for all the games in Serie A. Not just Juve's games, all of them. He was threatening teams not to give them TV contracts if they didn't sell them their players (Emerson). He called sports show hosts and told them exactly what to say and when to say it, in order to influence the general opinion and convince people they were playing fair. So really, I don't think it's fair to dismiss Juve's crimes by saying "oh, every team does it". Because that's just not true.

And the exact same things happen in US college sports(to varying degrees). The problem is not Juve leading a cabal of corruption, the problem is institutional. If its not Juve doing it, its going to be Milan. Its going to be Inter. Its going to be whomever wants to stay on top. Juve got nailed doing it, but they've put colleges on the death penalty(which is far more of a penalty than Juve potentially being dumped down to C1) and the problem doesn't go away. Its institutional, both in Serie A and in the NCAA. Also, it sounds like Moggi was the problem, and not Juve. Without Moggi, you don't have much to lay on Juve's soul.

[akhhorus]

Akh, Juve will be better than 80% of the teams in Serie A, despite dumping the talent. That doesnt mean anything put the Top Four teams of any of the major leagues into another and they will be better than 80% of the remaining teams. Juves record against the best of the Premiership since 96 is 5-8-3, hardly sparkling. The upper echelons of Football are better than the other 80%

I'm sorry, but that really doesn't matter. 4 of those losses are in the last two Juve CL appearances. And both of those teams were extremely hot squads(2004/05 Liverpool and 05/06 Arsenal).

You listed all those talented teams above and some do play good football, but putting the Italian league on a pedestal is somewhat misleading. We see two live Italian games a week which I watch and frankly I turned off most of the games not involving the top teams and even some involving them. I find it really boring these days. In the 90's Italian football was great but its decline and the rise of La Liga have been marked in my eyes. This Juve team is nothing compared to the team of Baggio, Vialli and Ravenelli, and even more compared to the team of Platini, Boniek and Brady.

They play less exciting, but they sort of have to because of the expansion of talent in the Serie A and Benedict Capello decided to build defensive teams around Buffon.

Since Parma won in 1998 there has not been a Single Italian team in the UEFA Cup final, that is 7 seasons. Middlesborough finished 13th I think in the Premiership, yet made the UEFA Cup Final last year. As for the Champions League, One winner in the last 10 seasons is not indicative of the better league, maybe you arent saying that Serie A is the better league, I dont know. But La Liga, the Bundesliga and the Premiership have all had more winners and as many finalists.

I think La Liga could make a claim to be the best league in the world, but the Bundesliga is a joke frankly(Bayern and not much else). I like the EPL, but I don't think it is as good as the Serie A in terms of talent and play.

Every league has its heydays, Football is cyclical. There wasnt a single Italian winner from 1969 until 1985. Then AC became the dominant force, Juve made three consecutive finals but since then it has been La Liga that has provided the most winners and finalists.

This is very true. But the Serie A always is up there as the argurably the best.

The fact is 80% of games are not great spectacles no matter what the league, unless your team is involved. Then is doesnt matter the quality of the game, you just want to win.

Well, I root for both. I love a great college game, even if I have no stake in it. Same goes for the NFL and soccer. I see more consistant quality in Italy and Italian soccer than anywhere else right now. There might be a better team if you want to do a matchup, where Arsenal is better than say Inter, but thats somewhat irrelevant.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I would call Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio and Fiorentina the top of Italian soccer. Thats just my opinion though.
That's true, they are the top. But only 3 of them are in competition to win the title. All the others routinely finish 20-30 points behind.

I didn't think it was a realistically implimented solution. But I think its the only solution to this problem.
Well, free agency isn't a solution obviously since it's already present, and the draft does not work if you are in competition with other countries as well.

No, but you could reorganize it and have the drafting from the lower leagues.
No, because the the lower leagues are themselves formed by other teams. What are you gonna do, wipe out more than 200 teams? You would have to take away the promotion and demotion system as well.

Nothing you've said contradicts anything I've said. The problem is institutional. And this is the same problem that American College sports has.
Yes, it is institutional. The problem is that Milan and Juventus ARE the institution. Galliani was president of the Italian Soccer league up until the scandal. And the same with Juve GMs in the past.

And if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you. I'm sorry, but your hatred for Juve is just getting ridiculous now. Inter, Milan and Lazio are as crooked as a plane full of snakes, and you're acting like Juve is the only criminal in Italian soccer.

Akh, you are mistaking what I am saying as an opinion of mine. These are NOT my opinions. I am not acting like anything. I am telling you what is going on. These are facts, and have been confirmed by the Carabinieri, the Italian Federation, and by various judges, after having taped 1 year's worth of phone calls to and from Moggi's, Giraudo's, and various other people's phones (referees, tv show hosts, heads of the Italian Referee Association, ministers..). Inter came out COMPLETELY clean. So did Roma. Milan was very partially involved (although I think they got a free pass and deserved much worse). Lazio and Fiorentina were blackmailed. They initially went against the system, and did not want to vote for Galliani as President and did not want to surrender to Juve's will in terms of tv contracts and player negotiations. So Juve started sending refs to make them lose games, and when they were on the verge of being demoted, they caved in and agreed, and so they were "helped", and avoided demotion. See Lecce-Parma (referee Massimo DeSantis). That is what they are guilty of, and that is why they received a lesser penalty. You are free to pretend that this is not true or that Juve was not the team that created the system that was ruling the Serie A, but that would mean you are totally disregarding the facts (which you have presented none of to plead your case so far).


And that scandal also implicated Milan, Lazio and a few other teams. And they never knew the whole scope of the problem. Also, the ONLY Juve player who was implicated was Davids, and more Milan players were accused.
Wrong. You can't just throw teams in there out of the blue. The scandal which I am referring to involved ONLY Juventus (and a bunch of players as well: they all went and testified..Vialli, Ravanelli, DelPiero, Peruzzi, Pessotto, Ferrara, etc. etc. etc.), and the ONLY person found guilty was Agricola, which is Juventus's team doctor.


And have been screwed by refs plenty of times also. The whole Lazio-Collins debacle comes immediately to mind. Ronaldo's phantom penalty was another.
I think you might be the only person in the world to think Ronaldo's penalty was phantom. And you should document yourself about what REALLY happened the day Lazio won the title when Collina made Juventus play in the pouring rain, and during the weeks leading up to the game, specifically in Juventus-Parma (Massimo DeSantis was the referee once again).

And the exact same things happen in US college sports(to varying degrees). The problem is not Juve leading a cabal of corruption, the problem is institutional. If its not Juve doing it, its going to be Milan. Its going to be Inter. Its going to be whomever wants to stay on top. Juve got nailed doing it, but they've put colleges on the death penalty(which is far more of a penalty than Juve potentially being dumped down to C1) and the problem doesn't go away. Its institutional, both in Serie A and in the NCAA. Also, it sounds like Moggi was the problem, and not Juve. Without Moggi, you don't have much to lay on Juve's soul.
Wrong again. Moggi was not the only member of Juve's front office to get a 5 year suspension. Giraudo was also guilty and received a 5 year ban. Besides those two, who exactly is "Juve"? Giraudo was the President and Moggi the General Manager. The whole Juventus front office immediately resigned after the thing blew up in their face. And have you ever heard of the GEA? And I insist that you can't say "it's going to be Inter" because in 100 years of history they have never been found guilty of anything like this.

[suppitty]

There are 2 primary soccer channels in the US. Fox Soccer Channel is the most widely available and usually shows between 3-5 live premiership games per week. FSC also has the rights to show some Italian games, but they usually do not include the big clubs (Inter, Milan, Roma). They also have some more delayed EPL games, as well as showing the occasional German League, French League, and Argentine league games. Highlight shows which feature mostly soccer (and some other international sports) are also featured on the channel.

The second channel is GolTV, which is for a slightly more hardcore soccer fan. It is generally available in both English and Spanish. They have the rights to the Spanish League (~5 games/week), as well as the top games from the Italian league (2-4/week). Then they have rights to almost every league in South and Central America (except Argentina and Mexico) ranging from the high-quality, entertaining Brazilian league to the obscure, yet equally entertaining (for different reasons) Salvadoran league. Basically this channel is showing soccer games, whether live or on tape, a good 12 hours a day, with the other 12 hours being filled up with a few highlight shows, and low quality foriegn shows dubbed into English.

Both of these channels should be available from your cable provider, and for me with Comast digital cable's basic package, it only cost $5/month more for a package which included both of these channels. FSC should be available on both DirecTV and Dish, although I'm not sure about GOLTV.

Hope some of that helps. BTW, go with Simmons and pick Tottenham ;)

[SpicyMcHaggis]

There are 2 primary soccer channels in the US. Fox Soccer Channel is the most widely available and usually shows between 3-5 live premiership games per week. FSC also has the rights to show some Italian games, but they usually do not include the big clubs (Inter, Milan, Roma). They also have some more delayed EPL games, as well as showing the occasional German League, French League, and Argentine league games. Highlight shows which feature mostly soccer (and some other international sports) are also featured on the channel.

The second channel is GolTV, which is for a slightly more hardcore soccer fan. It is generally available in both English and Spanish. They have the rights to the Spanish League (~5 games/week), as well as the top games from the Italian league (2-4/week). Then they have rights to almost every league in South and Central America (except Argentina and Mexico) ranging from the high-quality, entertaining Brazilian league to the obscure, yet equally entertaining (for different reasons) Salvadoran league. Basically this channel is showing soccer games, whether live or on tape, a good 12 hours a day, with the other 12 hours being filled up with a few highlight shows, and low quality foriegn shows dubbed into English.

Both of these channels should be available from your cable provider, and for me with Comast digital cable's basic package, it only cost $5/month more for a package which included both of these channels. FSC should be available on both DirecTV and Dish, although I'm not sure about GOLTV.

Hope some of that helps. BTW, go with Simmons and pick Tottenham ;)
If I were him I actually would pick a team like Tottenham as well..or maybe Valencia..just as long as he stays away from the Serie A and the Bundesliga he'll be safe..:)

[akhhorus]

That's true, they are the top. But only 3 of them are in competition to win the title. All the others routinely finish 20-30 points behind.

yes, but they've all been in the Serie A for 60+ years. Thats impressive. In fact, this upcoming season will be the first without Juve.

Well, free agency isn't a solution obviously since it's already present, and the draft does not work if you are in competition with other countries as well.

And you can help that by tightening up the numbers of foreign players playing in Italy.

No, because the the lower leagues are themselves formed by other teams. What are you gonna do, wipe out more than 200 teams? You would have to take away the promotion and demotion system as well.

Fine by me. If it means streamlining the system and making it better.

Yes, it is institutional. The problem is that Milan and Juventus ARE the institution. Galliani was president of the Italian Soccer league up until the scandal. And the same with Juve GMs in the past.

You have nothing remotely close to the recent allegations in the past. Outside of speculation and rumor.

Akh, you are mistaking what I am saying as an opinion of mine. These are NOT my opinions. I am not acting like anything. I am telling you what is going on. These are facts, and have been confirmed by the Carabinieri, the Italian Federation, and by various judges, after having taped 1 year's worth of phone calls to and from Moggi's, Giraudo's, and various other people's phones (referees, tv show hosts, heads of the Italian Referee Association, ministers..). Inter came out COMPLETELY clean. So did Roma. Milan was very partially involved (although I think they got a free pass and deserved much worse). Lazio and Fiorentina were blackmailed. They initially went against the system, and did not want to vote for Galliani as President and did not want to surrender to Juve's will in terms of tv contracts and player negotiations. So Juve started sending refs to make them lose games, and when they were on the verge of being demoted, they caved in and agreed, and so they were "helped", and avoided demotion. See Lecce-Parma (referee Massimo DeSantis). That is what they are guilty of, and that is why they received a lesser penalty. You are free to pretend that this is not true or that Juve was not the team that created the system that was ruling the Serie A, but that would mean you are totally disregarding the facts (which you have presented none of to plead your case so far).

I'm not disputing any of the facts. But to think that Juve is satan and the rest are angels, even Inter, is ridiculous. Maybe in this individual scandal, you are irght, juve is the worse. But to apply this widely that Juve has had Satan in the front office since 1934 making things work for them is ridiculous. Thats basically what you're accusing us of.

Wrong. You can't just throw teams in there out of the blue. The scandal which I am referring to involved ONLY Juventus (and a bunch of players as well: they all went and testified..Vialli, Ravanelli, DelPiero, Peruzzi, Pessotto, Ferrara, etc. etc. etc.), and the ONLY person found guilty was Agricola, which is Juventus's team doctor.

Yes, I know what you are talking about. The 2003 scandal. But you're still applying singular scandals as a general rule to Juve. You have no evidence outside of this that Juve was doping up. Just from 94-98. And Juve was cleared in this inquiry, the doctor was sent to jail though. Oh wait, Satan must have greased the wheels then also.

I think you might be the only person in the world to think Ronaldo's penalty was phantom. And you should document yourself about what REALLY happened the day Lazio won the title when Collina made Juventus play in the pouring rain, and during the weeks leading up to the game, specifically in Juventus-Parma (Massimo DeSantis was the referee once again).

I know the particulars of the Lazio thing. Collina had no reason to play the game then considering the conditions, and he was a life long fan of theirs. Hmmm...

Wrong again. Moggi was not the only member of Juve's front office to get a 5 year suspension. Giraudo was also guilty and received a 5 year ban. Besides those two, who exactly is "Juve"?

The team is bigger than one(or two persons). Until you can show that the players, coaches, board etc were in on it, it is still bad apples in a good barrel.

Giraudo was the President and Moggi the General Manager. The whole Juventus front office immediately resigned after the thing blew up in their face.

And the board. So, they were guilty also? Pesseto tried to kill himself, he must be involved. Cannavaro just left Juve. Maybe he's involved?

And have you ever heard of the GEA?

Of course. I find it funny that Italy isn't investigating their claim that they fixed the Papal election.

And I insist that you can't say "it's going to be Inter" because in 100 years of history they have never been found guilty of anything like this.

And since Juve has been nailed on a few things, they're the one bad apple and it will be all sunshine and clean play in Serie A :rolleyes: I will DIE laughing if Inter or Roma gets nailed on something while Juve is down in B, but I'm sure you'll try and blame it on us.

[GeneralDisorder]

Ill let Spicy give you the Masters Thesis on the subject, but I enjoy Italian football more than English football just for the level of play. English teams(those not named Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool or Arsenal) aren't that good(ducks the cinder block thrown by GD). Italian teams, even mid level Serie A teams have talent on them and play well. And the big teams(Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Fiorentina, I guess you could make the case for Parma also) are just loaded with talent and all play good soccer. The best teams in England can't say that. Its a much rougher quality game in England and more of a tacticial/strategic struggle in Italy. For example; Juve, despite dumping a ton talent from their roster and heading to Serie B, will still have starting XI who are better and play better than 80% of the EPL.

Hmmn. Where to begin...?

Give me a game of footie where both team don't cancel each other out with negative tactics. Give me a game of footie where no-one knows the outcome before kick-off. Give me a game of footie where the fans aren't seperated from the action by three miles of running track. Give me a game of footie where you're allowed to tackle and players are frowned upon for spending half the game getting their opposite number sent off by rolling around on the floor or waving imaginary cards at the referee. Give me a game of footie where the clubs don't turn a blind eye to facism or racism.

Now. Liverpool finished 37 points behind Chelsea yet were untroubled by Juve and gave AC Milan a three goal start in Istanbul on the way to winning the European Cup in 2005.

Arsenal finished 24 points behind Chelsea and sold arguably their most influential player to Juve and still comfortably shafted them a year later...

You're also quick to comdemn our mid-table teams, two of which had lengthy UEFA Cup runs last season (Bolton & Middlesbro...) with another reaching the semi-final the year before that (Newcastle...).

[GeneralDisorder]

From a level of play standpoint, the Italian league is much better tactically than the other teams. The defensive organization, the trainers, the preparation, are all way ahead of the Premier League.

Recent results between the countries' clubs in the Champions League say otherwise...

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Recent results between the countries' clubs in the Champions League say otherwise...
I'm not saying the Serie A is better than the PL..especially now..if I were him I would steer clear of it and choose a PL team or a Liga team..I was just listing the aspects in which IMO the Serie A is better...but there are just as many..no..there are MANY more in which the PL is better..the atmosphere, the purity, the stadiums (Stamford Bridge is just incredible..when I saw it the first time, I was like "WOW..there's a friggin' hotel in the stadium!"), the more physical and more open style of play, the average value of the teams, the fact that half the teams in PL aren't gonna be demoted to First Division for being involved in the greatest scandal soccer has ever seen, the number of teams that actually have a shot at winning (well, maybe not now with Chelsea), etc. etc.
The only reason I would like for him to choose a Serie A team, preferably not Roma, Juve, or Inter is because we would have weekly trash talking matches, and almost all the top teams would be represented.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Hmmn. Where to begin...?

Give me a game of footie where both team don't cancel each other out with negative tactics. Give me a game of footie where no-one knows the outcome before kick-off. Give me a game of footie where the fans aren't seperated from the action by three miles of running track. Give me a game of footie where you're allowed to tackle and players are frowned upon for spending half the game getting their opposite number sent off by rolling around on the floor or waving imaginary cards at the referee. Give me a game of footie where the clubs don't turn a blind eye to facism or racism.

Now. Liverpool finished 37 points behind Chelsea yet were untroubled by Juve and gave AC Milan a three goal start in Istanbul on the way to winning the European Cup in 2005.

Arsenal finished 24 points behind Chelsea and sold arguably their most influential player to Juve and still comfortably shafted them a year later...

You're also quick to comdemn our mid-table teams, two of which had lengthy UEFA Cup runs last season (Bolton & Middlesbro...) with another reaching the semi-final the year before that (Newcastle...).
You should come and give a speech to some people here in Italy. You couldn't be more right.
The only thing I don't agree with is the UEFA results. Italian teams don't care about the UEFA cup, and generally send their B teams. This is because UEFA gives basically no money, so the top teams prefer to concentrate on arriving 4th to qualify for the CL, and the lesser ones that quilify (Parma 2 years ago), concentrate on saving themselves from demotion. I do not agree with this kind of reasoning and am routinely pissed off when I see Roma play its reserves and get kicked out, but that's the way it is...

[Seebs]

So the conclusion of all that is: support the PSG!

[suppitty]

So the conclusion of all that is: support the PSG!
PSG has terrific supporters, but they hate each other almost as much as the opponenent if what I've heard is correct. Behind one goal, it is packed with completely white supporters, while the other goal is full of multicultural support groups. They don't get along too well.

[SkinsKY]

From all of this, I seem to be no closer to a decision (although the gun akh currently has to my head is quite convincing). I will try and keep tabs on the goings on this season in Serie A and the EPL and maybe pick up a team in both (unless that breaks some taboo I'm unaware of). Serie A sounds very enticing, but the mess it's in makes me hesitant. If it's EPL it's likely to be the Spurs or Newcastle, although I've always felt favorable to Arsenal since I first knew about EPL. Who knows about Serie A. I liked Buffon in the cup, so I may just go with Juve. It'll take some time I guess until something feels right.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

From all of this, I seem to be no closer to a decision (although the gun akh currently has to my head is quite convincing). I will try and keep tabs on the goings on this season in Serie A and the EPL and maybe pick up a team in both (unless that breaks some taboo I'm unaware of). Serie A sounds very enticing, but the mess it's in makes me hesitant. If it's EPL it's likely to be the Spurs or Newcastle, although I've always felt favorable to Arsenal since I first knew about EPL. Who knows about Serie A. I liked Buffon in the cup, so I may just go with Juve. It'll take some time I guess until something feels right.
You know what I would do if I were you? Wait till the seasons begin around September, start watching as many games as possible from the various leagues, and then you'll naturally start liking some teams more than others..then jut pick one of them.

[SkinsKY]

You know what I would do if I were you? Wait till the seasons begin around September, start watching as many games as possible from the various leagues, and then you'll naturally start liking some teams more than others..then jut pick one of them.

That's probably what will happen.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

That's probably what will happen.
Good idea..that way you will pick a team that: is shown on tv quite often, has a jersey you like, has players you do like, plays an exciting style of soccer, etc. etc. etc. If you pick one before, you might be stuck with some team you don't ever get to watch or that plays every game to tie 0-0, and you'll just have to pick another one..

[Seebs]

PSG has terrific supporters, but they hate each other almost as much as the opponenent if what I've heard is correct. Behind one goal, it is packed with completely white supporters, while the other goal is full of multicultural support groups. They don't get along too well.

I can't say that it is wrong. Maybe not as strong as you wrote it but close nonetheless.
By the way, I'm on the "multicultural" stands...

[GeneralDisorder]

From all of this, I seem to be no closer to a decision (although the gun akh currently has to my head is quite convincing). I will try and keep tabs on the goings on this season in Serie A and the EPL and maybe pick up a team in both (unless that breaks some taboo I'm unaware of). Serie A sounds very enticing, but the mess it's in makes me hesitant. If it's EPL it's likely to be the Spurs or Newcastle, although I've always felt favorable to Arsenal since I first knew about EPL. Who knows about Serie A. I liked Buffon in the cup, so I may just go with Juve. It'll take some time I guess until something feels right.

You cannot pick Arsenal. If you pick Arsenal I will have to hate you. And I do not want to hate you. Please do not pick Arsenal...

[GeneralDisorder]

From all of this, I seem to be no closer to a decision (although the gun akh currently has to my head is quite convincing). I will try and keep tabs on the goings on this season in Serie A and the EPL and maybe pick up a team in both (unless that breaks some taboo I'm unaware of). Serie A sounds very enticing, but the mess it's in makes me hesitant. If it's EPL it's likely to be the Spurs or Newcastle, although I've always felt favorable to Arsenal since I first knew about EPL. Who knows about Serie A. I liked Buffon in the cup, so I may just go with Juve. It'll take some time I guess until something feels right.

You cannot pick Arsenal. If you pick Arsenal I will have to hate you. And I do not want to hate you. Please do not pick Arsenal...

[GeneralDisorder]

From all of this, I seem to be no closer to a decision (although the gun akh currently has to my head is quite convincing). I will try and keep tabs on the goings on this season in Serie A and the EPL and maybe pick up a team in both (unless that breaks some taboo I'm unaware of). Serie A sounds very enticing, but the mess it's in makes me hesitant. If it's EPL it's likely to be the Spurs or Newcastle, although I've always felt favorable to Arsenal since I first knew about EPL. Who knows about Serie A. I liked Buffon in the cup, so I may just go with Juve. It'll take some time I guess until something feels right.

You cannot pick Arsenal. If you pick Arsenal I will have to hate you. And I do not want to hate you. Please do not pick Arsenal...

[GeneralDisorder]

From all of this, I seem to be no closer to a decision (although the gun akh currently has to my head is quite convincing). I will try and keep tabs on the goings on this season in Serie A and the EPL and maybe pick up a team in both (unless that breaks some taboo I'm unaware of). Serie A sounds very enticing, but the mess it's in makes me hesitant. If it's EPL it's likely to be the Spurs or Newcastle, although I've always felt favorable to Arsenal since I first knew about EPL. Who knows about Serie A. I liked Buffon in the cup, so I may just go with Juve. It'll take some time I guess until something feels right.

You cannot pick Arsenal. If you pick Arsenal I will have to hate you. And I do not want to hate you. Please do not pick Arsenal...

[GB Skin OT]

Why I support the team I support is probably the same as it works over there in the US,ie. whoever your Dad supports you have to support-no arguments allowed.However,as you are looking for a Premier League team to support you don't have to worry about that.......
To sum up the options you have:-
CHELSEA (West London) - some genuine fans,on the whole though either racist nutters,prawn sandwich munching middle class twitsor bandwagon jumpers (I'm pretty sure as a reasonable man you would not wish to support a club where a minority of idiots make gas chamber hissing noises at us)
ARSENAL (camped in North London but originally hail from South London,where they should return forthwith) - PLEASE dont support Arsenal,or I will have to hate you too :) I could spout on for hours about the scum but I will spare you the rant
MANCHESTER UNITED (North West)- everyone I have ever met from Manchester supports Man City,and a chant you often get sung at Utd fans is 'You only live round the corner !' when they play away,ha ha,would support 'em over the two aforementioned 100 times out of 100 though
LIVERPOOL (North West) - genuine supporters,big club and might push hard this year for the title
NEWCASTLE UTD (North East) - great city,great fans and great people but have serious delusions of grandeur (last time they won anything Winston Churchill was prime minister - 1955 FFS !!!!)
ASTON VILLA (Birmingham) - have a total twat of a chairman,poor playing staff,just sacked their manager and the fans have turned on everyone from the chairman to the tea lady.If you want to support them,feel free ha ha My american cousin supports them for some totally unfathomable reason......
BLACKBURN (North West) - not a bad team but a bit unfashionable,quite physical,have a few handy players
BOLTON (North West) - again not exactly fashionable,can play some great football but have reverted recently to booting the ball and opponents around the pitch....
CHARLTON (South London) - Lost their long term manager over the summer and have Iain Dowie in charge now,often spring a few surprises but end up mid table
EVERTON (Liverpool) - Were huge in the eighties but have been mid table for some years with the odd exception,city of Liverpools 'other' team
FULHAM (West London) - Small traditional club who were bought out by Mohammed Al Fayed who owns Harrods,bottom 10 team,sadly Mr Al Fayed doesnt spend as much as the Russian bloke who owns their hated rivals Chelsea just a few miles away.
MANCHESTER CITY - Poor relation to Man Utd,were a big club once but have slipped a long way since then,again mid table but have a decent manager although little money to spend.
MIDDLESBOROUGH (North East) - have a chairman who has spent the equivalent of the national debt of a dodgy african state but without much success (but had a good run to the uefa cup final last year).Steve McLaren has just got the England job and one of the players has been appointed player manager.Have some decent players
PORTSMOUTH - (South Coast)have 'Appy 'Arry in charge who performed miracles last year,again not fashionable but somehow manage to stay up.
READING - new team to the premiership,have a chairman who is absolutely loaded and is not frightened to spend it sensibly.Do hoops do it for you ? If so reading are for you.Might struggle.
SHEFFIELD UNITED (Yorkshire) - just promoted,have the worlds worst sport as manager,might be interesting this year but again might struggle.Lacking in cash.
WATFORD (Hertfordshire,just outside north london) - once owned by Elton John who is a lifelong fan,a small club who will probably go back down but fair play for getting to the PL in the first place.
WEST HAM (East London) - Awright me old china ? Ar ya comin dahn the Boleyn for a tear up and to wotch the 'ammers ? The Cockney boys, did well last year and lost a heartbreaker to the scousers in the Cup Final,good manager and could finish around the top 6 (if you liked lock,stock and two smoking barrels then support the Irons !!!!)
WIGAN - small town,overachieving team and manager but did fantastically well last year and started the season at a blistering pace.Might be an interesting year as to how the will do this time though.
TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR - North London's finest,in Europe for the first time in ages this year and lost out on the champions league on the last day of the season,could be a great year this year (even if Carrick pisses off to the Mancs...) My team in case you hadnt guessed :lol1:

Won't enter the what league is best debate coz ive ranted on long enough,but for entertainment the Premiership is the clear winner.My foreign teams are Barcelona and Juventus but I follow their results rather than actively support them.
Pick a team from the list above and enjoy the season !!! (unless you pick Chelsea or Arsenal) Can I suggest a team who play in Lillywhite and blue at White Hart Lane 'the world famous home of the spurs' ?

[J Raab]

I find the idea of this thread fascinating.

A few years ago I started getting into soccer (ill call it football from here). I watched FSC (it was Fox Sports World at the time), but couldnt really get into a game that didnt involve Arsenal or Man U. I very quickly realized I cant stand Man U, so I gravitated towards Arsenal. The next year Chelsea became what the are now, and I cant stand them either (Jose Mourinho is much worse than Ozzie Guillen, Abramovich worse than Steinbrenner, in my mind that is).

I never was really into it, and Id have been a liar if I said I was a fan of Arsenal. But ive since lost ALL interest in the EPL, for many reasons. I also found out about Arsenal's fans, and how bad they can be. I like football more than ever, but I really couldnt care less about the EPL. The only support I feel for any team there is Tottenham, because my neighbors are big Spurs fans.

I guess you could say Im a bandwagon fan, but I would say the European team I like the most is Barca. They are just so ridiculously fun to watch. Im of course not a very refined football fan, and I couldnt explain it if I was asked, but I can see a big difference between the styles of play in Italy and Spain, so much so that I dont like to watch Serie A. After Barca, Id rather watch a Liga Mexicana game than an EPL or Seria A game (unless Pumas is playing, and winning; I hate those guys :)).

But as far as football in general goes, give me DC United any day! I cant muster even 1/100th the support for any European team that I can for United.

[Minnesota Mike]

I'll save you a spot in the Glasgow Celtic Supporters Club if you want!

There is no better looking jersey in all of soccer than the Hoops!

[MONK_in_HOF]

What is the deal with Arsenal's fans? Are they really that bad or is it the fact that most here are Spurs fans that magnify that sentiment? From some of the posts I have seen it seems they are much like Eagles fans.

I watch a lot of EPL on Fox Soccer Channel, but they report very little on the fans and their tendencies. I guess I tend to root for Liverpool and Newcastle more than others and anyone that plays Chelsea. Not an Arsenal fan but Bergkamp is one of the most enjoyable players to watch that I have ever seen.

[dj_stouty]

I advise you to watch as many games as possible and you will eventually start pulling for one team.

I did that 3 years ago, and started rooting for Liverpool. (who are a great team, by the way, so I recommend rooting for them)

[SkinsKY]

You cannot pick Arsenal. If you pick Arsenal I will have to hate you. And I do not want to hate you. Please do not pick Arsenal...

I'll give this the most convincing argument so far.

Mark, I will try and do that. I have seen little snippets of Gerrard and I like him a lot. Even in FIFA 2006 for my PS2 he knocked in a crazy long shot. It's probably Liverpool or Tottenham, so I'll have to watch and see.

[suppitty]

I'll save you a spot in the Glasgow Celtic Supporters Club if you want!

There is no better looking jersey in all of soccer than the Hoops!
Yeah but he wants to support a real football club, not one that gets thrashed by DC United 4-0. :lol1:

[suppitty]

I'll give this the most convincing argument so far.

Mark, I will try and do that. I have seen little snippets of Gerrard and I like him a lot. Even in FIFA 2006 for my PS2 he knocked in a crazy long shot. It's probably Liverpool or Tottenham, so I'll have to watch and see.
These really are the 2 most appealing clubs in England. If you throw in Newcastle then you get the clear-cut 6 biggest clubs in England, with the 3 I've mentioned being the only ones with completely authentic fan bases.

Spurs remind me of the Redskins in a number of ways. They had their good years in the 80's, they have great loyal fans, but they always seemed to underachieve recently. For a decade they were kicked around by their main rivals, but last year they finally made the progress they were capable of all these years, and they are finally looking like they could become a real contender in the near future...Sound familiar?

[SpicyMcHaggis]

My advice for a Premier League team: if you choose Liverpool, don't ever speak to me again. Other then that, choose whoever you want.
Oh by the way, has anyone here seen Green Street Hooligans?

[GB Skin OT]

Spurs have won plenty of silverware but not won the league since we were the first team to do the double in,ahem,1961.First English team to win a european trophy too.
Arsenal and Spurs really dont get on,so my opinion on Arsenal and their fans is more than a little biased.For some reason,West Ham,Chelsea and Arsenal fans all hate Tottenham above anyone else,and I have been at plenty of games where it has kicked off big style (to use the vernacular).The Green Street film is based on West Ham and the ICF (Inter City Firm) in case you hadnt guessed (Green Street is the name of the road behind the East Stand) and isnt bad,there have been a few other hooligan films which are fairly entertaining (perhaps in a dubious way).
It is all too easy to get caught up in what goes on because the atmosphere at a premiership derby is just fantastic and you get a real sense of a 'them and us' mentality,thankfully things have calmed down a hell of a lot over the years and it is much more family orientated.The 70's and the 80's could be pretty horrendous violence wise.The chanting and singing is often pretty funny and that is what a lot of overseas people that have been to football with me commented on,why don't you get 30,000 people singing 'the referees a wanker !' in the NFL ? :lol1:

[Minnesota Mike]

Yeah but he wants to support a real football club, not one that gets thrashed by DC United 4-0. :lol1:

Well they may have lost, but they looked damn good doing it!

[GeneralDisorder]

What is the deal with Arsenal's fans? Are they really that bad or is it the fact that most here are Spurs fans that magnify that sentiment? From some of the posts I have seen it seems they are much like Eagles fans.

I watch a lot of EPL on Fox Soccer Channel, but they report very little on the fans and their tendencies. I guess I tend to root for Liverpool and Newcastle more than others and anyone that plays Chelsea. Not an Arsenal fan but Bergkamp is one of the most enjoyable players to watch that I have ever seen.

When he wasn't elbowing or stamping on players. Can't deny Bergkamp's skill, but he was a dirty fecker on the quiet...

[SkinsKY]

So here's my decision. I'm going to become a Spurs fan. I ruled out Newcastle, who finished third. I just couldn't muster any emotion in favor of it. Liverpool finished second and I still like Gerrard...and the match kits. Ultimately Tottenham seemed to be a better choice and I slowly gravitated towards them. I will also follow Serie A, and probably Juve since I like Buffon. I don't know how this will pan out, but that's my plan. If you don't like it...screw you, Go Spurs! ;)

[suppitty]

Great decision! :) Now prepare for them to let you down ;)

First game is on Fox Soccer Channel this Saturday at noon eastern against Bolton on the road. It should be a good test to start the season. We remain weak at both outside fullback positions, and we still lack a good left-sided midfield player. Also look for possibly adding a striker and a central defender to add depth.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

So here's my decision. I'm going to become a Spurs fan. I ruled out Newcastle, who finished third. I just couldn't muster any emotion in favor of it. Liverpool finished second and I still like Gerrard...and the match kits. Ultimately Tottenham seemed to be a better choice and I slowly gravitated towards them. I will also follow Serie A, and probably Juve since I like Buffon. I don't know how this will pan out, but that's my plan. If you don't like it...screw you, Go Spurs! ;)
Good choice in Tottenham..they're the PL team that I dislike the least, along with maybe Newcastle.
As for the Juve thing, I won't hold that against you, since it's obvious you were being threatened by akh and fent when you made the decision.

[akhhorus]

As for the Juve thing, I won't hold that against you, since it's obvious you were being threatened by akh and fent when you made the decision.

We just showed him the light....:)

[SpicyMcHaggis]

We just showed him the light....:)
The little red light that is produced by guns with laser pointers?