You make the call

[Santheb]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/rick_reilly/08/07/reilly0814/index.html

You make the call
Is it good baseball strategy or a weak attempt to win?

This actually happened. Your job is to decide whether it should have.

In a nine- and 10-year-old PONY league championship game in Bountiful, Utah, the Yankees lead the Red Sox by one run. The Sox are up in the bottom of the last inning, two outs, a runner on third. At the plate is the Sox' best hitter, a kid named Jordan. On deck is the Sox' worst hitter, a kid named Romney. He's a scrawny cancer survivor who has to take human growth hormone and has a shunt in his brain.

So, you're the coach: Do you intentionally walk the star hitter so you can face the kid who can barely swing?

Wait! Before you answer.... This is a league where everybody gets to bat, there's a four-runs-per-inning max, and no stealing until the ball crosses the plate. On the other hand, the stands are packed and it is the title game.

So ... do you pitch to the star or do you lay it all on the kid who's been through hell already?

Yanks coach Bob Farley decided to walk the star.

Parents booed. The umpire, Mike Wright, thought to himself, Low-ball move. In the stands, Romney's eight-year-old sister cried. "They're picking on Romney!" she said. Romney struck out. The Yanks celebrated. The Sox moaned. The two coaching staffs nearly brawled.

And Romney? He sobbed himself to sleep that night.

"It made me sick," says Romney's dad, Marlo Oaks. "It's going after the weakest chick in the flock."

Farley and his assistant coach, Shaun Farr, who recommended the walk, say they didn't know Romney was a cancer survivor. "And even if I had," insists Farr, "I'd have done the same thing. It's just good baseball strategy."

Romney's mom, Elaine, thinks Farr knew. "Romney's cancer was in the paper when he met with President Bush," she says. That was thanks to the Make-A-Wish people. "And [Farr] coached Romney in basketball. I tell all his coaches about his condition."



She has to. Because of his radiation treatments, Romney's body may not produce enough of a stress-responding hormone if he is seriously injured, so he has to quickly get a cortisone shot or it could be life-threatening. That's why he wears a helmet even in centerfield. Farr didn't notice?

The sports editor for the local Davis Clipper, Ben De Voe, ripped the Yankees' decision. "Hopefully these coaches enjoy the trophy on their mantle," De Voe wrote, "right next to their dunce caps."

Well, that turned Bountiful into Rancorful. The town was split -- with some people calling for De Voe's firing and describing Farr and Farley as "great men," while others called the coaches "pathetic human beings." They "should be tarred and feathered," one man wrote to De Voe. Blogs and letters pages howled. A state house candidate called it "shameful."

What the Yankees' coaches did was within the rules. But is it right to put winning over compassion? For that matter, does a kid who yearns to be treated like everybody else want compassion?

"What about the boy who is dyslexic -- should he get special treatment?" Blaine and Kris Smith wrote to the Clipper. "The boy who wears glasses -- should he never be struck out? ... NO! They should all play by the rules of the game."

The Yankees' coaches insisted that the Sox coach would've done the same thing. "Not only wouldn't I have," says Sox coach Keith Gulbransen, "I didn't. When their best hitter came up, I pitched to him. I especially wouldn't have done it to Romney."

Farr thinks the Sox coach is a hypocrite. He points out that all coaches put their worst fielder in rightfield and try to steal on the weakest catchers. "Isn't that strategy?" he asks. "Isn't that trying to win? Do we let the kid feel like he's a winner by having the whole league play easy on him? This isn't the Special Olympics. He's not retarded."

Me? I think what the Yanks did stinks. Strategy is fine against major leaguers, but not against a little kid with a tube in his head. Just good baseball strategy? This isn't the pros. This is: Everybody bats, one-hour games. That means it's about fun. Period.

What the Yankees' coaches did was make it about them, not the kids. It became their medal to pin on their pecs and show off at their barbecues. And if a fragile kid got stomped on the way, well, that's baseball. We see it all over the country -- the overcaffeinated coach who watches too much SportsCenter and needs to win far more than the kids, who will forget about it two Dove bars later.

By the way, the next morning, Romney woke up and decided to do something about what happened to him.

"I'm going to work on my batting," he told his dad. "Then maybe someday I'll be the one they walk."

[csquared]

I heard this on Dan Patrick the other day.My only question is "Why was this kid batting behind the best player." Being a little league coach of 11 years this kid wouldnt be behind my best player. Thats bad coaching. Yes it was a questionable move by walking the kid, but he had been killing them all game. I honestly say this is bad coaching on the Red Sox part. Every coach knows that you surrond your best player in the line up with atleast half way decent players. Also lets say they walked this kid too. Im sure his parents would have cried that they didnt give him a chance to win the game.I honestly feel this is just something to whine and cry about because they lost.

[redskin_rich]

Some of you may hate me for this but I say play to win, period. I'm so sick and tired of all the political correctness that goes on today. I have coached my daughters' soccer teams and it stinks that I have to give each kid equal playing time, even though some have never played and couldn't kick the ball if it landed on their foot. When I was a kid playing youth sports, we were broken up by talent levels first and then the best players played on the teams and the players that stunk sat on the bench.

This situation would have never arose if not for the babying of kids today.

[csquared]

Rich i couldnt agree more.I teach my kids to have fun BUT its more fun to win.

[Santheb]

The game is about fun man, thats why everybody hits, every inning..little league isn't all about winning, its about teaching sportsmanship. In my opinion at least. Yeah its nice to win, but thats what the upper levels are for (Babe Ruth, etc) where they actually play by, for the most part, big league rules.

[redskin_rich]

The game is about fun man, thats why everybody hits, every inning..little league isn't all about winning, its about teaching sportsmanship. In my opinion at least. Yeah its nice to win, but thats what the upper levels are for (Babe Ruth, etc) where they actually play by, for the most part, big league rules.
It doesn't sound like the result of this game was very fun for the poor kid that survived cancer. Like I said, good players play and bad players sit and this never happens. Life ain't fair and that lesson should be learned when you're young. If you coddle everyone, it only makes them less able to deal later in life. I'm speaking generally here, btw, obviously this kid has already faced an incredible amount of hardship, more than any child should.

[csquared]

Farr thinks the Sox coach is a hypocrite. He points out that all coaches put their worst fielder in rightfield and try to steal on the weakest catchers. "Isn't that strategy?" he asks. "Isn't that trying to win? Do we let the kid feel like he's a winner by having the whole league play easy on him? This isn't the Special Olympics. He's not retarded."

This kid signed up to play baseball. And apparently this league kept standings because it was a championship game. So were the yankees supposed to just give up on the season because the kid was a cancer survivor? What does that teach the kids on the Yankees? "Sorry he had cancer so we are going to let them win. We are going to throw away your great season because he was sick" Not at all. Again why was he batting behind the best player? I also say had they walked him too somebody would have cried foul because they didnt give him a chance.Walking the best kid gave this little boy a chance to be a hero. Ok he struck out big deal.If im his parents or his coach i want him in a situation where he could be the hero.I pat him on the head and say "Get em next time good try." Its a wonderful thing that he survived cancer and now can play baseball.If he is my kid im proud that he is even out there.

[Santheb]

It doesn't sound like the result of this game was very fun for the poor kid that survived cancer. Like I said, good players play and bad players sit and this never happens. Life ain't fair and that lesson should be learned when you're young. If you coddle everyone, it only makes them less able to deal later in life. I'm speaking generally here, btw, obviously this kid has already faced an incredible amount of hardship, more than any child should.

I know, thats why, in my opinion, it was a ****head "move" to intentionally walk the best player (in a little league game, no less, an IBB in a little league game) and pitch to the kid that can barely swing.

I think this kid knows that life isn't fair more than a lot of people, heh. I dunno, I wouldn't have pitched to him.

However, the cancer kids manager is just as much at fault here as the ****head manager, there's no denying that.

[csquared]

But what if he would have hit a homerun? How good would he have felt? He had a chance to do something real special. Not alot of cancer survivors get a chance to do something like that. I guess what im saying is there really 2 ways to look at this. Its not as bad as everyone thinks.

[whitskins]

Wow, these kids are 9 and 10 years old, this isn't even a middle school aged contest. All kids this age should have a chance to compete, what point does it serve benching the weaker kids at this age? They've barely played the game at all, how does anyone know they won't develop into excellent players with some experience on the field and a chance to compete? 9 and 10 years old is way too young to start bredding these kids to win at all costs. Save that for when they'll actually remember the darn games.

And the Yanks coaches were not supposed to just let the other team win. Who says they would have lost the game if they pitched to the superstar? They still had every chance to win the game without picking on a freaking 10 year old cancer survivor.

This is a joke, these parents had their chance to win all the games they could in their youth, why intentionally try to take something away from a kid like that? If they want to win that badly then they should go coach teenagers or high schoolers. Third graders just trying to learn and experience the game don't need this crap.

[csquared]

Ok but i guess your missing the point Whit. The star players parents arent complaining.What did they take away from the cancer survivor?? They didnt take anything from him.They actually gave him the oppurtunity to be the star. Now obviously that wasnt the Yankees intention. But if the cancer survivor is my child im proud that he is out on that field.

[BurgundyNGold]

C'mon guys, this is Yankees vs. Red Sox. We've seen worse before and will see worse again. ;)

[CNYSkinFan]

By the way, the next morning, Romney woke up and decided to do something about what happened to him.

"I'm going to work on my batting," he told his dad. "Then maybe someday I'll be the one they walk."

And that my friends is WHY you play sports. You learn life lessons from it. This kid had a bad day...a real bad day. And now he is picking himself up by the bootstrap and getting stronger. There is another victime here, the kid who struck out the cancer patient. This kid is the bad guy now and it is not his fault. If I was that kid I would have wanted to strike out the best guy, not the worst guy. At least then if I failed I failed against the best.

[redskin_rich]

Wow, these kids are 9 and 10 years old, this isn't even a middle school aged contest. All kids this age should have a chance to compete, what point does it serve benching the weaker kids at this age? They've barely played the game at all, how does anyone know they won't develop into excellent players with some experience on the field and a chance to compete? 9 and 10 years old is way too young to start bredding these kids to win at all costs. Save that for when they'll actually remember the darn games.

And the Yanks coaches were not supposed to just let the other team win. Who says they would have lost the game if they pitched to the superstar? They still had every chance to win the game without picking on a freaking 10 year old cancer survivor.

This is a joke, these parents had their chance to win all the games they could in their youth, why intentionally try to take something away from a kid like that? If they want to win that badly then they should go coach teenagers or high schoolers. Third graders just trying to learn and experience the game don't need this crap.
Whit, my oldest daughter is 9 and she has already played 8 seasons of soccer (2 per year). She is now out of the "house" league and on a traveling team coached by pros. These 9-10 year olds are incredible, you wouldn't believe the skills they have. Competition starts early my friend, fun belongs at the playground, not in organized sports past the entry ages.

[csquared]

Whit i also was playing 16 and under baseball at 10. I have a 10 year old brother that plays on a traveling squad. Not sure how the sports were where you grew up or where you are but these probably arent kids who got their first glove 3 months ago. Im sure alot of these kids have been playing for a while.

[whitskins]

Ok but i guess your missing the point Whit. The star players parents arent complaining.What did they take away from the cancer survivor?? They didnt take anything from him.They actually gave him the oppurtunity to be the star. Now obviously that wasnt the Yankees intention. But if the cancer survivor is my child im proud that he is out on that field.

So the coaches intentionally walked the stud so they could get the cancer boy up and give him a chance to be the star? No, they knew he was an easy out because the kid needs to take steriods just to get the strength to swing the bat. Yeah it would have been great if the kid hit a home run by some miracle, but that doesn't make what the Yankees coaches did right in any way. They weren't out there trying to do him any favors, they were picking on him so they could win a freaking Pee Wee tournament.

And I agree that the cancer survivor and his parents should be very proud. They should be very proud that he's still alive. And if he's still playing the game at an age where the games mean more than just free orange slices and juice boxes afterwards, then go ahead and walk him if that's what they have to do to win. But what these coaches did was low. When you're dealing with kids this young it's about more than just winning and losing and these coaches don't get that at all.

[csquared]

Ok why was he batting behind the best player if he was so weak and terrrible? Thats bad coaching.

[BurgundyNGold]

Ok why was he batting behind the best player if he was so weak and terrrible? Thats bad coaching.
Agreed. And if anything, he should've been pulled 2 innings earlier so as to avoid any late inning difficulties.

[whitskins]

Whit, my oldest daughter is 9 and she has already played 8 seasons of soccer (2 per year). She is now out of the "house" league and on a traveling team coached by pros. These 9-10 year olds are incredible, you wouldn't believe the skills they have. Competition starts early my friend, fun belongs at the playground, not in organized sports past the entry ages.

Your daughter's obvious skill level is the reason why she is out of the house league and on a travel team. She deserves to compete at a higher level so kids who are much newer to the game can get some experience on the smaller teams.

Kids who are just picking up the game in grade school aren't asking to join the travel teams or to be coached by pros, they want a chance to experience the game to see if they like it. How do you know that the weaker players who you wish you could bench will not develop into players that will become as good or better than the stars on your team? At this age it's way too young to tell and they deserve the chance to gain the experience and not be relegated solely to the playground just because they didn't take up the game at age four.

The travel teams and pro coaches are great for kids at an advanced level who shouldn't be held back by weaker or less experienced kids. But 9 and 10 year old kids who have never played the game before deserve a chance to compete on a regular old organized team to see what they can eventually become.

[BurgundyNGold]

Your daughter's obvious skill level is the reason why she is out of the house league and on a travel team. She deserves to compete at a higher level so kids who are much newer to the game can get some experience on the smaller teams.

Kids who are just picking up the game in grade school aren't asking to join the travel teams or to be coached by pros, they want a chance to experience the game to see if they like it. How do you know that the weaker players who you wish you could bench will not develop into players that will become as good or better than the stars on your team? At this age it's way too young to tell and they deserve the chance to gain the experience and not be relegated solely to the playground just because they didn't take up the game at age four.

The travel teams and pro coaches are great for kids at an advanced level who shouldn't be held back by weaker or less experienced kids. But 9 and 10 year old kids who have never played the game before deserve a chance to compete on a regular old organized team to see what they can eventually become.
That's why they have soccer, whit. Well, except in RR's case.

Plus, it seems that thre are already a bunch of mercy and fair play rules in place in this league. I would say that if you're going to keep score -- let alone if you're going to have playoffs and a championship -- that the competition trumps the fair play rules ay some point.

[redskin_rich]

You make some good points, Whit, and I pretty much agree with what you're saying. I personally felt 5-6 years old is too early to start organized sports but if you don't get started then, you'll set yourself way behind the other kids.
Also, as a coach and Soccer Dad (groan) in the house leagues, it has been my experience that most kids that join late (8-9) usually quit after one season anyway.

[CNYSkinFan]

Ok why was he batting behind the best player if he was so weak and terrrible? Thats bad coaching.
Exactly. Why was this kid put into this position? And you have to ask yourself did the opposing coach actually plan this as some kind of "protection" for his best hitter (don't walk the guy because then you have to pick on the cancer guy)

[redskin_rich]

That's why they have soccer, whit. Well, except in RR's case.


Hey, wait a minute... Naw, you're right with boys. Girls on the other hand, actually choose soccer first and the less athletic end up playing softball.

[Fathead]

If it was one of the "non-competitive" leagues like they have here, the batting order has nothing to do with skill, it's a random draw.

[whitskins]

You make some good points, Whit, and I pretty much agree with what you're saying. I personally felt 5-6 years old is too early to start organized sports but if you don't get started then, you'll set yourself way behind the other kids.
Also, as a coach and Soccer Dad (groan) in the house leagues, it has been my experience that most kids that join late (8-9) usually quit after one season anyway.

I don't doubt that it's frustrating as a coach at that level. From what I can vaguely remember of my youth sports days, I certainly remember a few coaches muttering some curse words under their breath when forced to insert me into the batting lineup or soccer field. I was absolutely terrible at those two sports but was decent at basketball for a little while.

And I agree that a lot of the weaker players probably quit after a year, but I think they're much more likely to quit and give up if they're never given a chance to play. If they at least get a chance then a few may stick with it and wind up developing into good players.

I just think at a really young age all kids need to experience the game and competition to see what they could become. I know when I was in 8th grade I had just transfered to a private school where lacrosse was a very big sport. My very mild athletic talents pretty much ruled me out of pursuing football or basketball, but all of my friends were lacrosse players and despite my athletic limitations, I have a severe appetite for competition. So, I decided to give lacrosse shot, even though the sport depends on an extreme amount of skill that takes years to improve to an even competant level.

Anyways, I started playing even though all of my friends had been playing the game since they were five years old. I supremely sucked and could barely even catch the ball, but I played on a "B" squad and got a chance to get on the field quite a bit. Even though I wasn't very good I loved the game, so I worked as hard as I could and by my senior year I was a starter on our Varsity team that went on to play in the State Championship game.

So I definitely have a sense of sympathy for the kids who are late bloomers or less talented athletes and I'm just thankful that I got a chance to compete despite my limitations because if I didn't I probably never would have stuck with the game and developed into a decent player, which without a doubt ended up providing me with the best memories of my high school years.

[BurgundyNGold]

I don't doubt that it's frustrating as a coach at that level. From what I can vaguely remember of my youth sports days, I certainly remember a few coaches muttering some curse words under their breath when forced to insert me into the batting lineup or soccer field. I was absolutely terrible at those two sports but was decent at basketball for a little while.

And I agree that a lot of the weaker players probably quit after a year, but I think they're much more likely to quit and give up if they're never given a chance to play. If they at least get a chance then a few may stick with it and wind up developing into good players.

I just think at a really young age all kids need to experience the game and competition to see what they could become. I know when I was in 8th grade I had just transfered to a private school where lacrosse was a very big sport. My very mild athletic talents pretty much ruled me out of pursuing football or basketball, but all of my friends were lacrosse players and despite my athletic limitations, I have a severe appetite for competition. So, I decided to give lacrosse shot, even though the sport depends on an extreme amount of skill that takes years to improve to an even competant level.

Anyways, I started playing even though all of my friends had been playing the game since they were five years old. I supremely sucked and could barely even catch the ball, but I played on a "B" squad and got a chance to get on the field quite a bit. Even though I wasn't very good I loved the game, so I worked as hard as I could and by my senior year I was a starter on our Varsity team that went on to play in the State Championship game.

So I definitely have a sense of sympathy for the kids who are late bloomers or less talented athletes and I'm just thankful that I got a chance to compete despite my limitations because if I didn't I probably never would have stuck with the game and developed into a decent player, which without a doubt ended up providing me with the best memories of my high school years.
Getting a chance to play is one thing. I think everyone can see the value the "A" and "B" team methods. However, when you're in a championship, in the bottom of the 9th, you'd have to guess that everyone has had a chance to play. I say get that out of the way in the first 6 innings and then use whoever you want in the last 3 innings. I mean, how would you or the other players on your championship squad have felt if you worked your butts off to get to that game and then you got pulled so that some other kid could get field time. That's not really fair to you or the other players, now is it?

[whitskins]

Getting a chance to play is one thing. I think everyone can see the value the "A" and "B" team methods. However, when you're in a championship, in the bottom of the 9th, you'd have to guess that everyone has had a chance to play. I say get that out of the way in the first 6 innings and then use whoever you want in the last 3 innings. I mean, how would you or the other players on your championship squad have felt if you worked your butts off to get to that game and then you got pulled so that some other kid could get field time. That's not really fair to you or the other players, now is it?

My teammates and I in high school were all about 17 to 18 years old. The kids on the Pee Wee team are 9 and 10 years old.

Do you really think a cancer survivor who needs to take HGH to get the strength to lead a somewhat normal life would make his high school baseball team? Of course not, these are totally different scenarios, one in which the primary objective should be to give kids a chance to compete and experience the sport, the other where the main goal is to win.

Sorry, I don't buy this comparison at all.

[BurgundyNGold]

My teammates and I in high school were all about 17 to 18 years old. The kids on the Pee Wee team are 9 and 10 years old.

Do you really think a cancer survivor who needs to take HGH to get the strength to lead a somewhat normal life would make his high school baseball team? Of course not, these are totally different scenarios, one in which the primary objective should be to give kids a chance to compete and experience the sport, the other where the main goal is to win.

Sorry, I don't buy this comparison at all.
The cancer kid was not the only kid on that team. What lesson(s) are we teaching the other 9 and 10 year olds on that team? How about "Winning doesn't matter... well, until you're older at least." Or maybe, "Hard work doesn't really matter because in the end your fate will be decided by something out of your control". I don't know, but I'm sure there were kids on that team who cried that night too, and I assure you it wasn't because the cancer kid felt bad.

[whitskins]

The cancer kid was not the only kid on that team. What lesson(s) are we teaching the other 9 and 10 year olds on that team? How about "Winning doesn't matter... well, until you're older at least." Or maybe, "Hard work doesn't really matter because in the end your fate will be decided by something out of your control". I don't know, but I'm sure there were kids on that team who cried that night too, and I assure you it wasn't because the cancer kid felt bad.

You make it sound like the only way for the Yanks to win the game was to walk the star and pitch to the cancer kid. Like it's a foregone conclusion that they would have lost the game if they had just pitched to the good player.

Give me a break, the Yanks coaches wouldn't have instilled their players with any bad messages if they had just had the guts to pitch to the kid who didn't need to take steroids just to swing the bat. You make it sound like the kids would be corrupted if their coach didn't make the decision to prey upon the weak.

How about sending the message that we don't need to target a kid who's lucky to be alive let alone playing a baseball game in order to be champions? That's not a bad message to send a bunch of third graders.

[fent]

That's why they have soccer, whit. Well, except in RR's case.

ahem...:rolleyes:

[redskin_rich]

I give you credit, Whit. You have a good conscience. I'm no saint but I do what I can.
I give no quarter when it comes to competition though, regardless of how seemingly meaningless it is. We are not talking about cheating here, no rules were broken. I see weakness, I'm going to exploit it and I would want to teach my kids the same. Blame the other coach who put the sick kid in this position in the first place, if you must lay blame.

[BurgundyNGold]

You make it sound like the only way for the Yanks to win the game was to walk the star and pitch to the cancer kid. Like it's a foregone conclusion that they would have lost the game if they had just pitched to the good player.
Oh, I'm not saying it wasn't a crappy thing to do. Quite the contrary, actually. However, my issue is with not putting the best player in during crunch time. That's on the cancer kid's coach, not on the other coach. The Yanks' coach did what you're supposed to do in a championship game, the Sox' coach didn't. His brain fart left that kid exposed and that is the biggest travesty, IMO.

Give me a break, the Yanks coaches wouldn't have instilled their players with any bad messages if they had just had the guts to pitch to the kid who didn't need to take steroids just to swing the bat. You make it sound like the kids would be corrupted if their coach didn't make the decision to prey upon the weak.
No, I'm not saying that. However, this is really an argument for a Potomac if you follow it to its logical conclusion. Everybody can't be winners and, all things being equal, the slow, weak or otherwise lame will be the ones to get pounced on the prairie. That's nature. Now, we can talk about the kinder, gentler humanity of it all, but you can't just change millions of years of adrenaline and instinct because it makes us feel better. The logical, human truth is that the cancer kid should never have been put in that position. Asking everyone else in the situation to curb their natural instinct to win isn't fair to them. So, it comes down to whether the good of the one outweighs the desires of the many. Well, that's for the Potomac.

How about sending the message that we don't need to target a kid who's lucky to be alive let alone playing a baseball game in order to be champions? That's not a bad message to send a bunch of third graders.
I agree with this too, but, as I said, that kid should not have been in the lineup in the bottom of the 9th. It's a matter of perspective, I guess. I'd be less inclined to crucify the coach who pitched around the one batter to get to the cancer kid as I am to smack the Sox coach upside the head and ask him if there was something wrong. Who knows, maybe he was playing the sympathy card to make the Yanks pitch to his best batter?

[BurgundyNGold]

ahem...:rolleyes:
Ha! Deal with it soccer boy! :D

All kidding aside, youth soccer has too many leagues with too many rules where they don't keep score, records don't matter and everybody gets a trophy. WTF, is this the special olympics? That might be fine on the commune but it has no place in sports.

[whitskins]

I give you credit, Whit. You have a good conscience. I'm no saint but I do what I can.
I give no quarter when it comes to competition though, regardless of how seemingly meaningless it is. We are not talking about cheating here, no rules were broken. I see weakness, I'm going to exploit it and I would want to teach my kids the same. Blame the other coach who put the sick kid in this position in the first place, if you must lay blame.

Well, I'm a competitive freak myself so I understand where you're coming from, I just think picking on a 10 year old cancer survivor is going a bit too far.

And I can't blame the Sox coach because he's in a no win situation, if he keeps the kid in he lessens his chances of losing, if he pulls him out then he's the jerk for yanking the kid out of the game.

I don't know this coach's motivations but it seems like he was just trying to give the kid a chance to experience the championship game, since he may never get that opportunity again. Who knows if he'll be back in the hospital or even still alive when the next season rolls around. He sounds like he is still in pretty rough shape.

[redskin_rich]

Well, I'm a competitive freak myself so I understand where you're coming from, I just think picking on a 10 year old cancer survivor is going a bit too far.

And I can't blame the Sox coach because he's in a no win situation, if he keeps the kid in he lessens his chances of losing, if he pulls him out then he's the jerk for yanking the kid out of the game.

I don't know this coach's motivations but it seems like he was just trying to give the kid a chance to experience the championship game, since he may never get that opportunity again. Who knows if he'll be back in the hospital or even still alive when the next season rolls around. He sounds like he is still in pretty rough shape.
I just want to address the part of your post I bolded. Why does personal issues have to come into this? Whether the kid is a cancer survivor, or has no parents or his house burned down or he just plain sucks. He was the weakness that the other coach left out there to exploit. I find it much easier to be competitive and be able to look at myself in the mirror without shame, if I don't take these personal issues into account in competition.

[whitskins]

No, I'm not saying that. However, this is really an argument for a Potomac if you follow it to its logical conclusion. Everybody can't be winners and, all things being equal, the slow, weak or otherwise lame will be the ones to get pounced on the prairie. That's nature. Now, we can talk about the kinder, gentler humanity of it all, but you can't just change millions of years of adrenaline and instinct because it makes us feel better. The logical, human truth is that the cancer kid should never have been put in that position. Asking everyone else in the situation to curb their natural instinct to win isn't fair to them. So, it comes down to whether the good of the one outweighs the desires of the many. Well, that's for the Potomac.


I agree with this too, but, as I said, that kid should not have been in the lineup in the bottom of the 9th. It's a matter of perspective, I guess. I'd be less inclined to crucify the coach who pitched around the one batter to get to the cancer kid as I am to smack the Sox coach upside the head and ask him if there was something wrong. Who knows, maybe he was playing the sympathy card to make the Yanks pitch to his best batter?

(Sigh...)

Sorry, this is just too dramatic for me. So, it's the combined forces of millions of years of adrenaline and instinct that lead a grown man to target a 10 year old cancer survivor in order to win a Pee Wee Little League championship? And how is pitching to the kid who can actually swing a bat without taking an HGH supplement unfair to anyone?

And it's strange to me how you assume the Sox coach was playing the sympathy card in order to snag the championship from the Yanks before you assume that the coach maybe wanted to give this kid a chance to experience the championship game, knowing that he could very well wind up sick or dead in the near future. Could millions of years of nature somehow have contributed to this decision as well?

But you're right, this is a matter of perspective, I just take issue with the leanings that the Yanks coach somehow had no choice in the matter because it is our nature to exploit the weak in order to win, even at age ten. Sorry, that's a crappy message and a weak excuse in my opinion.

[smoak]

I pitch to the hitter and not b/c of some soft heart. I think in games like this you build character by going after head to head with the best and not shying away from greatness. I know it isn't tradional thinking, but I say "forget about the curveball Ricky... Given 'em the heater".

[Santheb]

Whit, my oldest daughter is 9 and she has already played 8 seasons of soccer (2 per year). She is now out of the "house" league and on a traveling team coached by pros. These 9-10 year olds are incredible, you wouldn't believe the skills they have. Competition starts early my friend, fun belongs at the playground, not in organized sports past the entry ages.

It doesn't start early for everybody and obviously these kids aren't travel team super awesome players since they are still doing the house leagues.

[BurgundyNGold]

(Sigh...)

Sorry, this is just too dramatic for me. So, it's the combined forces of millions of years of adrenaline and instinct that lead a grown man to target a 10 year old cancer survivor in order to win a Pee Wee Little League championship? And how is pitching to the kid who can actually swing a bat without taking an HGH supplement unfair to anyone?
Again, we're not talking about what I would do. Personally, I want to win against the best, so I would've pitched to the better hitter.

And it's strange to me how you assume the Sox coach was playing the sympathy card in order to snag the championship from the Yanks before you assume that the coach maybe wanted to give this kid a chance to experience the championship game, knowing that he could very well wind up sick or dead in the near future. Could millions of years of nature somehow have contributed to this decision as well?
I'm not assuming anything. I put out a hypothetical which, not knowing what the folks were actually thinking, is certainly valid. How do you know that the Sox coach was putting the cancer kid out to experience the game? What if he was just a moron?

BTW, the kid could've "experienced" innings 4 through 6, gotten an at bat and nobody, NOBODY would've chastized the Sox coach. The kid would've been able to play and compete and wew wouldn't be having this conversation. It is for this reason that I put is on that wonderful, humanitarian Sox coach. :rolleyes:

But you're right, this is a matter of perspective, I just take issue with the leanings that the Yanks coach somehow had no choice in the matter because it is our nature to exploit the weak in order to win, even at age ten. Sorry, that's a crappy message and a weak excuse in my opinion.
I'm not saying that he didn't have a choice, I'm saying that it is not an absolute that we condemn his choice. If they didn't care about who won or lost, they wouldn't keep score. If you're keeping score, competition is going to creep in. And, BTW, you don't have to teach 9 year olds to be competitive. Hell, you don't need to teach 2 year olds to be competitive. It's right there.

[redskin_rich]

I pitch to the hitter and not b/c of some soft heart. I think in games like this you build character by going after head to head with the best and not shying away from greatness. I know it isn't tradional thinking, but I say "forget about the curveball Ricky... Given 'em the heater".
And you get pelted with water bottles from the parents when the kid goes yard on that heater, LOL.

Seriously, do you make that call every time or just in this case?

[BurgundyNGold]

For the record, if I were the Yanks coach, I would've instructed my pitcher to bean both kids on general principle, lol.

[RedskinsDave]

The kid was on the Red Sox. He should get used to failure.

[dj_stouty]

Intentionally walking a batter is part of this league's rules. Period. There was no cheating that occured, and the kids of the Yanks obviously worked hard enough to deserve the win, so the coach did the right thing by pitching to the weaker batter.

Does it suck that a cancer-survivor struck out to lose the championship game? Sure. But that is the game of baseball. One of those 10 year olds on the losing team was going to be the last batter...

I've known a few cancer survivors, like people with disabilities, who have refused to be treated any different than a normal/healthy person. We all watched that Rochester kid with autism jack up three pointer after three pointer for his team, and I didn't notice the defense standing around and simply allowing it to happen.

They do have sporting leagues/camps for people with illnesses and disabilities. I applaud this kid and his family for taking the hard road and putting him on a team with healthy kids. But deep down, you have to believe they knew that his limitations would potentially be a factor in his onfield performance.

[CNYSkinFan]

For the record, if I were the Yanks coach, I would've instructed my pitcher to bean both kids on general principle, lol.

I thought this was bad and then I saw this:

The kid was on the Red Sox. He should get used to failure.

Worse and worse.....


Is it bad I am still laughing at both?

[smoak]

And you get pelted with water bottles from the parents when the kid goes yard on that heater, LOL.

Seriously, do you make that call every time or just in this case?

Here is the thing... I was a pitcher... not for long mind you (2 years), but when I pitched I would be damned before I backed down from anyone. If I were a professional coach, I would walk the guy, but this is little league and although the strategy is flawed, at that age, I'd rather instill a bulldog mentality in the kid pitching. You can't pitch scared and sometimes you have to stick you nose in there and get the job done...

It is a little overly simplistic b/c I don't know anything about the players, but as a general rule, I say "go get him". If the kid at bat was juicing and a head like Bonds, I'd beam him. Nothing like teaching 10 year olds to throw inside....

[Santheb]

I've known a few cancer survivors, like people with disabilities, who have refused to be treated any different than a normal/healthy person. We all watched that Rochester kid with autism jack up three pointer after three pointer for his team, and I didn't notice the defense standing around and simply allowing it to happen.

What are you talking about? They were barely guarding him at all.

[dj_stouty]

What are you talking about? They were barely guarding him at all.

Wrong. I just watched the tape and on most of his shots there was a guy/hand in his face...especially the first several shots he took. Other times, he was wide open and let the ball go as soon as he touched it.

That is what I'm talking about. Next time I'll type it slower for you.:rolleyes:

[Santheb]

Wrong. I just watched the tape and on most of his shots there was a guy/hand in his face...especially the first several shots he took. Other times, he was wide open and let the ball go as soon as he touched it.

That is what I'm talking about. Next time I'll type it slower for you.:rolleyes:

I just watched it as well, he had one guy jump, the others didn't even jump, they just stuck their hand up. After the first few they just didn't even bother anymore. Two times, nobody was even there. Two times, somebody jumped (on his airball and on another one,) and the other times the kids didn't even jump, they barely stuck their hands up.

[dj_stouty]

I just watched it as well, he had one guy jump, the others didn't even jump, they just stuck their hand up. After the first few they just didn't even bother anymore. Two times, nobody was even there. Two times, somebody jumped (on his airball and on another one,) and the other times the kids didn't even jump, they barely stuck their hands up.

Lol.."nobody was there". Its called "being open". It happens all the time in basketball.

I'll give you the fact that the players gave up on the final 2 shots, but aside from that, he had some hands in his face.

Bottom line: The team didn't sit on their hands and let him play horse during the game.

[Santheb]

Lol.."nobody was there". Its called "being open". It happens all the time in basketball.

I'll give you the fact that the players gave up on the final 2 shots, but aside from that, he had some hands in his face.

Bottom line: The team didn't sit on their hands and let him play horse during the game.

No, its that nobody was there. Yeah he was open, but a little girl can be open if theres nobody within three feet of him. I'd call that "giving up" too, but he did shoot it right when he got it so I dunno. I'd say being open is working to get coverage off of you or taking advantage of someone else getting double teamed, which was obviously not the case since they knew who the ball was going to every time.

And yes I know it happens all the time in basketball considering I used to play it two times a year in leagues and still play it regularly at the courts.

[dj_stouty]

And yes I know it happens all the time in basketball considering I used to play it two times a year in leagues and still play it regularly at the courts.

THanks for the credentials.

[BurgundyNGold]

I thought this was bad and then I saw this:

Worse and worse.....

Is it bad I am still laughing at both?
I know. I was sure I was going to hell after typing that. Then I read what Dave posted and I knew that he'd be bartending when I go there, lol.

[The Skinsinator]

I find this appalling:

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2006/08/cruel_coach_or_.html

[redskin_rich]

http://hailredskins.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=36127

[IllinoiSkinFan]

I read somewhere that this coach did not know the next kid was a cancer victim. I think the coach just played the game the way it should be.

[Santheb]

I read somewhere that this coach did not know the next kid was a cancer victim. I think the coach just played the game the way it should be.

I'm sure he knew. The cancer kids mother lets every coach that he plays for know of his condition and I'm sure that word has spread. Plus, it'd be kinda easy to tell that somethings not quite right about him when he can barely swing a bat and doesn't field well, or do anything well in the game, really.

[dj_stouty]

I find this appalling:

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2006/08/cruel_coach_or_.html

Threads merged...

[Keino]

Whit, my oldest daughter is 9 and she has already played 8 seasons of soccer (2 per year). She is now out of the "house" league and on a traveling team coached by pros. These 9-10 year olds are incredible, you wouldn't believe the skills they have. Competition starts early my friend, fun belongs at the playground, not in organized sports past the entry ages.

The fun is learning how to play the game teh right way. And in that situation you walk the star and make the lesser player beat you. That coach would've been doing his own team a disservice to coach any other way.

Play to win. There's no place for coddling in competition. Coping with things now going your way on the ball field helps prepare you for the real world.

[BurgundyNGold]

The fun is learning how to play the game teh right way. And in that situation you walk the star and make the lesser player beat you. That coach would've been doing his own team a disservice to coach any other way.

Play to win. There's no place for coddling in competition. Coping with things now going your way on the ball field helps prepare you for the real world.
I hear a "There's no crying in baseball!" coming on, lol.

[Keino]

I hear a "There's no crying in baseball!" coming on, lol.


There's not. It's really simple.

And Smoak, please. I was a pitcher. At 8 years old I understood that if there was great hitter and the game is on the line with a weak hitter behind him, with first base open, you walk the good hitter. That is baseball 101. Sometimes "sticking your nose in and getting your job done" means swallowing your pride for the sake of the team.

[hail2skins]

Interesting to say the least.

He says this is a fun league where everyone bats. If that's the case, why even keep a score. Keeping score means it's competitive. Since it's competitive it means you're trying to win. Since you're trying to win, it means using a strategy. The coaches used a strategy and it worked.

This kid's parents could have easily put him in a league with other kids who have problems but they didn't. They put him in a league with normal kids. Did they do this because they want him to live a normal life or as close to normal as possible? If so, then I'd say it's working because losing is a part of a normal life.

Strategy vs compassion
The coaches took advantage of a weakness on the team. It happens all the time. You devise a strategy before and tweak during the event. I'm sure the coaches new this weakness existed and took advantage of it. Could there have been a hidden strategy here? Could the other team have used the kid for compassion betting teams would show compassion for him? "We'll let Jimmy bat, they'll feel sorry for him" kindof thing. Would this have been a story if that had happened.

[Seebs]

Interesting to say the least.

He says this is a fun league where everyone bats. If that's the case, why even keep a score. Keeping score means it's competitive. Since it's competitive it means you're trying to win. Since you're trying to win, it means using a strategy. The coaches used a strategy and it worked.

This kid's parents could have easily put him in a league with other kids who have problems but they didn't. They put him in a league with normal kids. Did they do this because they want him to live a normal life or as close to normal as possible? If so, then I'd say it's working because losing is a part of a normal life.

Strategy vs compassion
The coaches took advantage of a weakness on the team. It happens all the time. You devise a strategy before and tweak during the event. I'm sure the coaches new this weakness existed and took advantage of it. Could there have been a hidden strategy here? Could the other team have used the kid for compassion betting teams would show compassion for him? "We'll let Jimmy bat, they'll feel sorry for him" kindof thing. Would this have been a story if that had happened.

I was trying to find the good words to express my feelings on the subject. Your first paragraph could have been mine.

[BurgundyNGold]

Interesting to say the least.

He says this is a fun league where everyone bats. If that's the case, why even keep a score. Keeping score means it's competitive. Since it's competitive it means you're trying to win. Since you're trying to win, it means using a strategy. The coaches used a strategy and it worked.

This kid's parents could have easily put him in a league with other kids who have problems but they didn't. They put him in a league with normal kids. Did they do this because they want him to live a normal life or as close to normal as possible? If so, then I'd say it's working because losing is a part of a normal life.

Strategy vs compassion
The coaches took advantage of a weakness on the team. It happens all the time. You devise a strategy before and tweak during the event. I'm sure the coaches new this weakness existed and took advantage of it. Could there have been a hidden strategy here? Could the other team have used the kid for compassion betting teams would show compassion for him? "We'll let Jimmy bat, they'll feel sorry for him" kindof thing. Would this have been a story if that had happened.
Well said. You said in 200 words what I failed to get out in 2000, I think. I adopt this as my official statement on this matter. ;)

[Seebs]

Well said. You said in 200 words what I failed to get out in 2000, I think. I adopt this as my official statement on this matter. ;)
We should create a H2S worshipping cult!

[BurgundyNGold]

We should create a H2S worshipping cult!
Great, just what H2S needs -- another worshipping cult. :)

[hail2skins]

Bow before me and ye shall find peace. LMAO

You guys are funny. I was just trying to get my thoughts out there.

Did I mention I'm just returning from drinking 4 1/2 pitchers of Margaritas at Guapos. I'm not responsible for anything I type at this moement

[Seebs]

Bow before me and ye shall find peace. LMAO

You guys are funny. I was just trying to get my thoughts out there.

Did I mention I'm just returning from drinking 4 1/2 pitchers of Margaritas at Guapos. I'm not responsible for anything I type at this moement

Another reason for the worshipping cult!

[BurgundyNGold]

Bow before me and ye shall find peace. LMAO

You guys are funny. I was just trying to get my thoughts out there.

Did I mention I'm just returning from drinking 4 1/2 pitchers of Margaritas at Guapos. I'm not responsible for anything I type at this moement
Which Guapos? I go to the one in Rio up in Gaithersburg. Might I say that their Sangria is thoroughly punishing.