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View Full Version : Taking a break from Preseason - No Jerry Smith in SI's Top Ten All Time Tight Ends


flave1969
08-17-2006, 04:36 PM
Already tired with Preseason, so I was looking around and found this for us who might be interested as a distraction.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0608/gallery.NFLtopTE/content.1.html

?? Jerry Smith 421 Receptions 5496 yards 13.1 Avg 60TD's

10. Ben Coates 499 Receptions 5555 yards 11.1 Avg 50TD's
09. Todd Christensen 461 Receptions 5872 Yards 12.7 Avg 41TD's
08. Mark Bavaro 351 Receptions 4733 Yards 13.5 Avg 39TD's
07. Tony Gonzalez 648 Receptions 7810 Yards 12.1 Avg 56TD's
06. Kellen Winslow 541 Receptions 6741 Yards 12.5 Avg 45TD's
05. Mike Ditka 427 Receptions 5812 Yards 13.6 Avg 43TD's
04. Ozzie Newsome 662 Receptions 7980 Yards 12.1 Avg 47TD's
03. Dave Casper 378 Receptions 5216 Yards 13.8 Avg 52TD's
02. Shannon Sharpe 815 Receptions 10060 Yards 12.3 Avg 62TD's
01. John Mackey 331 Receptions 5236 Yards 15.8 Avg 38TD's

Smiths Position in Each Category (out of 11)

Receptions 8th
Yards 8th
Avg 5th
TD's 2nd

Now that is a fine Top Ten, but I really do think that Jerry Smith belongs in that Top Ten. I see Mackey, Casper and Ditka in the Hall Today and Jerry Smith was every bit their contemporary in excellence and era played in.

Were players like Christensen, Bavaro and Coates as fine a players as they were better. Some may think so, I think it is debatable.

I also feel that Keith Jackson also deserves mention but injuries robbed him of around 15 games.

What do you think?

danny's stogie
08-17-2006, 04:54 PM
08. Mark Bavaro 351 Receptions 4733 Yards 13.5 Avg 39TD's


Reminds me of a certain Harry Carson HOF vote.

redskin_rich
08-17-2006, 05:01 PM
The only argument I would make against Smith is that he was really just a tall WR lined up at TE. All those other guys listed were classic TE's that could run over LB's. Smith was more likely to make a play with his speed.

It's a weak argument and personally, I think if he was considered a TE, which he was, than his numbers should put him in with the best, even if he wasn't a prototype.

BurgundyNGold
08-17-2006, 05:01 PM
Who would you take off of that list so that Smith take his spot? I'm not sure, but Ben Coates and maybe Mark Bavaro are candidates, IMO.

BurgundyNGold
08-17-2006, 05:02 PM
The only argument I would make against Smith is that he was really just a tall WR lined up at TE. All those other guys listed were classic TE's that could run over LB's. Smith was more likely to make a play with his speed.

It's a weak argument and personally, I think if he was considered a TE, which he was, than his numbers should put him in with the best, even if he wasn't a prototype.
I beg to differ. Shannon Sharpe was a big WR playing TE most of the time.

flave1969
08-17-2006, 05:03 PM
Reminds me of a certain Harry Carson HOF vote.

Bavaro was a fine player, he meant a lot to the Giants who had pretty awful receiving corps in the 80's.

shally
08-17-2006, 05:05 PM
The only argument I would make against Smith is that he was really just a tall WR lined up at TE. All those other guys listed were classic TE's that could run over LB's. Smith was more likely to make a play with his speed.

It's a weak argument and personally, I think if he was considered a TE, which he was, than his numbers should put him in with the best, even if he wasn't a prototype.

you are right on.. he was a wideout playing tight end.. his blocking was not what was expected from a tight end at that time and maybe that contributed a little bit to the skins anemic running attack early on in smiths career

but he was a very productive player over a long period of time.. not sure if he merits HOF consideration however

danny's stogie
08-17-2006, 05:08 PM
Bavaro was a fine player, he meant a lot to the Giants who had pretty awful receiving corps in the 80's.

True, he was a fine player, but SI has a habit of trumpeting 1980s NY Giant players and making them out to be a lot better than they actually were.

redskin_rich
08-17-2006, 05:08 PM
Who would you take off of that list so that Smith take his spot? I'm not sure, but Ben Coates and maybe Mark Bavaro are candidates, IMO.
Take Ben Coates off but not Bavaro. The numbers don't tell the story with Bavaro, he was a flat out beast. The best in the league, in his time, no doubt about it. By comparison, Shockey wishes he was half as good as Bavaro.

danny's stogie
08-17-2006, 05:12 PM
Take Ben Coates off but not Bavaro. The numbers don't tell the story with Bavaro, he was a flat out beast. The best in the league, in his time, no doubt about it. By comparison, Shockey wishes he was half as good as Bavaro.

I'd remove Coates as well. He had a brief stretch of pure dominance, but it was just that - a brief stretch. Besides that little run I don't remember him as much more than above average and a name living off of 2 great seasons.

flave1969
08-17-2006, 05:14 PM
you are right on.. he was a wideout playing tight end.. his blocking was not what was expected from a tight end at that time and maybe that contributed a little bit to the skins anemic running attack early on in smiths career

but he was a very productive player over a long period of time.. not sure if he merits HOF consideration however

Interesting perspective. So was Smith a TE or WR? Did he ever block?

redskin_rich
08-17-2006, 05:16 PM
I beg to differ. Shannon Sharpe was a big WR playing TE most of the time.
Shannon Sharpe may have run like a wide out but he was stronger than any of the linemen on his teams. That's not a good comparison. Jerry Smith was built like Art Monk only skinnier.

BurgundyNGold
08-17-2006, 05:24 PM
Shannon Sharpe may have run like a wide out but he was stronger than any of the linemen on his teams. That's not a good comparison. Jerry Smith was built like Art Monk only skinnier.
You were talking about roles. Jerry didn't block much. Neither did Shannon and when he did, they were chip or angle blocks, not the typical drive blocks that you would associate with a true TE. I think that makes them very similar in they both were more WR than TE, regardles of how strong they were.

redskin_rich
08-17-2006, 05:29 PM
You were talking about roles. Jerry didn't block much. Neither did Shannon and when he did, they were chip or angle blocks, not the typical drive blocks that you would associate with a true TE. I think that makes them very similar in they both were more WR than TE, regardles of how strong they were.
I disagree, Sharpe did more blocking than you credit him for. But, because he was such an effective receiver, he did spend a lot of time running routes.
Either way, he still is closer to the prototype because he could run over defensive players, it just so happens, he could also run by them.

BurgundyNGold
08-17-2006, 05:44 PM
I disagree, Sharpe did more blocking than you credit him for. But, because he was such an effective receiver, he did spend a lot of time running routes.
Either way, he still is closer to the prototype because he could run over defensive players, it just so happens, he could also run by them.
He is the prototype TE because he reinvented the TE position to be a vertical threat. He was for all intents and purposes a WR + 30 pounds of solid muscle. He was not the run blocking TE in the Denver offense. Never was. He could block, but was rarely called on to do more than chip and angle blocks.

Still, how he is not #1 is beyond me. He is the GOAT at that position.

akhhorus
08-17-2006, 05:54 PM
KWII isn't on this list with his 5 catches for 50 yards? I'm just going to have to immolate myself in protest. (Akh pours gas on himself)

Seriously, no Brent Jones(his stats are pretty comparable, which is amazing since he was the 3rd or 4th option on those 49ers teams)? No Raymond Chester? No Keith Jackson? No Steve Jordan?

redskin_rich
08-17-2006, 05:58 PM
He is the prototype TE because he reinvented the TE position to be a vertical threat. He was for all intents and purposes a WR + 30 pounds of solid muscle. He was not the run blocking TE in the Denver offense. Never was. He could block, but was rarely called on to do more than chip and angle blocks.

Still, how he is not #1 is beyond me. He is the GOAT at that position.
Totally agree.

After thinking about it, I think Jerry Smith definitely deserves HOF consideration. He was ahead of his time. Think about it, since the proliferation of the West Coast Offense in the mid 80's, the TE position has become more of a receiver than blocker. This is not always the case but it is more so than not. Look at guys like Tony Gonzalez and Antonio Gates. All they are, are big WR's. Jerry should be judged by his production and should get in the HOF and I hope the reason he isn't is not politics.

Wild Bore
08-17-2006, 08:39 PM
This is amazing that he could be left off this list. When Jerry Smith retired, he was the all time leader in receptions for a tight end. He basically did for tight ends what Charlie Taylor, Art Monk, Jerry Rice etc did for WRs. The fact that he is now only eighth is the same reason Taylor and Monk slipped down the list--the game has changed, there is much more passing.

Sonny Jurgensen was a great quaterback. But one of the reasons he was great was that he had Jerry Smith. Smith used to make some of the most unbelievably spectacular catches that I have ever seen. What a sham!

X-Factor13
08-17-2006, 09:55 PM
Already tired with Preseason, so I was looking around and found this for us who might be interested as a distraction.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0608/gallery.NFLtopTE/content.1.html

?? Jerry Smith 421 Receptions 5496 yards 13.1 Avg 60TD's

10. Ben Coates 499 Receptions 5555 yards 11.1 Avg 50TD's
09. Todd Christensen 461 Receptions 5872 Yards 12.7 Avg 41TD's
08. Mark Bavaro 351 Receptions 4733 Yards 13.5 Avg 39TD's
07. Tony Gonzalez 648 Receptions 7810 Yards 12.1 Avg 56TD's
06. Kellen Winslow 541 Receptions 6741 Yards 12.5 Avg 45TD's
05. Mike Ditka 427 Receptions 5812 Yards 13.6 Avg 43TD's
04. Ozzie Newsome 662 Receptions 7980 Yards 12.1 Avg 47TD's
03. Dave Casper 378 Receptions 5216 Yards 13.8 Avg 52TD's
02. Shannon Sharpe 815 Receptions 10060 Yards 12.3 Avg 62TD's
01. John Mackey 331 Receptions 5236 Yards 15.8 Avg 38TD's

Smiths Position in Each Category (out of 11)

Receptions 8th
Yards 8th
Avg 5th
TD's 2nd



The only problem i have with this list is that tony gonzales is freaking 7th. He should be higher because has has NO wr's in KC at all. Entire defenses key off of him when it comes to the passing attack and still he puts up way better numbers than people who are ahead of him on this list. I certainly believe that he is a top 5 tight end and easily a first ballot hall of famer

X-Factor13
08-17-2006, 09:58 PM
Totally agree.

After thinking about it, I think Jerry Smith definitely deserves HOF consideration. He was ahead of his time. Think about it, since the proliferation of the West Coast Offense in the mid 80's, the TE position has become more of a receiver than blocker. This is not always the case but it is more so than not. Look at guys like Tony Gonzalez and Antonio Gates. All they are, are big WR's. Jerry should be judged by his production and should get in the HOF and I hope the reason he isn't is not politics.


I will defend Tony G's run blocking to the death. The man works his arse off and you can see it on the field. Nobody really thinks about this but KC has been a run-first team as long as gonzalez has been there. Just look at the rusher's they've had over his tenure there. A lot of that is due to the oline yes, but in the same sense Tony did his part in the running game to help open up lanes.

redskin_rich
08-17-2006, 10:29 PM
The only problem i have with this list is that tony gonzales is freaking 7th. He should be higher because has has NO wr's in KC at all. Entire defenses key off of him when it comes to the passing attack and still he puts up way better numbers than people who are ahead of him on this list. I certainly believe that he is a top 5 tight end and easily a first ballot hall of famer
Tony G is 7th but he is ranked above Mark Bavaro, who had no receivers around him either. Bavaro also played in an offense that was the complete opposite of the one that Tony G played in. It was a ball control offense that never put up big numbers but did just enough to win.
I think Tony G was the best in the league at his position for a few years, as Bavaro was but Tony is not the total package that Bavaro was. Bavaro would hurt you if you tried to tackle him.

shally
08-17-2006, 11:43 PM
Tony G is 7th but he is ranked above Mark Bavaro, who had no receivers around him either. Bavaro also played in an offense that was the complete opposite of the one that Tony G played in. It was a ball control offense that never put up big numbers but did just enough to win.
I think Tony G was the best in the league at his position for a few years, as Bavaro was but Tony is not the total package that Bavaro was. Bavaro would hurt you if you tried to tackle him.

he came up huge on third down.. all the time, it seems

HanburgerBum
08-18-2006, 12:34 AM
I am a big Jerry Smith fan. He was without a doubt one of the best receiving TEs ever. But, in all honesty, he was not a complete TE. While he was a willing blocker, his lack of bulk prevented him being an effective one. Since I consider blocking a large part of a TE's job description, I can not in good conscience argue for Jerry as one of the top 10 TEs of all time.

James F. Quinn
08-18-2006, 12:16 PM
Sonny Jurgensen was a great quaterback. But one of the reasons he was great was that he had Jerry Smith. Smith used to make some of the most unbelievably spectacular catches that I have ever seen. What a sham!

Wasn't it often remarked that when Billy Kilmer came in, Jerry Smith faded from the offense? BK didn't seem to find him the way SJ did.

bgforever
08-19-2006, 02:21 PM
Wasn't it often remarked that when Billy Kilmer came in, Jerry Smith faded from the offense? BK didn't seem to find him the way SJ did.

BK wasn't a pure passer and sometimes it took a good pass to get to JS, and BK apparently took bad angles and sometimes threw duck looking passes that batted down or picked. Maybe those were the ones he was trying to get to JS?

helimech24
08-19-2006, 03:33 PM
I don't really know much about Jerry Smith, but as far as the numbers go, he should definitely be in the HOF on his numbers alone. He is a top 5 TE.

GoDannyBoy
08-19-2006, 04:55 PM
We have voodoo statistics and they will team with the position police. We will now analyze every block and every route and rate them. Then the cumulative rating will decide the position. Statisticians will decide position not coaches.

If he played TE he should be judge as a TE but blocking is part of the job and good TEs do both.