The un-Official Get Oot OF DC John Hall Thread

[ryflan47]

John Hall, you suck so bad. Under pressure you buckled, and cost us the game. You suck, leave D.C. now.

[JakeIron]

Its not his fault that his good enough for this team... The FO should have cut him years ago...

[X-Factor13]

Put Frost in this too. And yes, get the hell outta dodge John Hall!

[Syllable]

thanks for the missed field goal, but HEY u made 20 yard field goals.

[ryflan47]

thanks for the missed field goal, but HEY u made 20 yard field goals.

Yeah, did you see the first 27 yarder that snuck in?

[danny's stogie]

Thanks for making 3 field goals, Hall. You'll make the next one.

[44FAN]

Plenty of blame to go around. But Hall's lost it. He doesn't kick with confidence. You can tell by the way he strokes it and doesn't really follow thru.

[CarMike]

Plenty of blame to go around. But Hall's lost it. He doesn't kick with confidence. You can tell by the way he strokes it and doesn't really follow thru.
No confidence at all.

[ryflan47]

Thanks for making 3 field goals, Hall. You'll make the next one.
As long as its not longer than 30 yards.

[Lavar703]

Cut john hall, its 4th and 1 and you kick a 47 yard field goal, give me a break, this has got to stop, How about cut kenny wright? why didnt we use TJ duckett in the red zone? Why do we have Rock Cartwright returning kicks? Why is Danny Smith still special teams coach? Why didnt we throw the ball to Cooley? Whats with Archuleta allowing every catch across the middle? Can Carlos Rogers actually be a good corner? These are all questions we have to answer in order to win this year.

[LATrueRedskin]

No confidence at all.

And I have zero confidence in him anymore. I knew he was going to miss, I was just wishing and praying he would. It should be the other way around.

[danny's stogie]

As long as its not longer than 30 yards.

The Skins should never have been in that position in the first place.

[ryflan47]

Cut john hall, its 4th and 1 and you kick a 47 yard field goal, give me a break, this has got to stop, How about cut kenny wright? why didnt we use TJ duckett in the red zone? Why do we have Rock Cartwright returning kicks? Why is Danny Smith still special teams coach? Why didnt we throw the ball to Cooley? Whats with Archuleta allowing every catch across the middle? Can Carlos Rogers actually be a good corner? These are all questions we have to answer in order to win this year.

So what are we supposed to do with no timeouts left? Let Brunell QB sneak it with no timeouts?

[X-Factor13]

And I have zero confidence in him anymore. I knew he was going to miss, I was just wishing and praying he would. It should be the other way around.


You know, i did the same thing. What a shame that no one believes in one of the most clutch positions in football.

[ryflan47]

And I have zero confidence in him anymore. I knew he was going to miss, I was just wishing and praying he would. It should be the other way around.

Exactly. I think the stupidest thing the Front Office did this year was not improving our kicking games. Then, after that, improving our special teams coaching.

[HAWGZHEAD]

The Skins should never have been in that position in the first place.True but when we are going to be in that situation inevitably once in awhile it would be nice to even have a sliver of hope that the kick could be made.

[JakeIron]

I really thought Gibbs knew his players better. It was 4th and an inch. Go for it. Thats what I was hoping for.

[X-Factor13]

So what are we supposed to do with no timeouts left? Let Brunell QB sneak it with no timeouts?


There were 17 seconds on the clock, let's sneak it, and assuming we got the first, spike the ball. that would've made it at least a yard closer for hall. lol

[santanadasavior]

There is no way we can put all the blame on Hall. He messed up in the end but there were other places where that game should have been won. We do need a new one but don't discard the fact that we had other problems. To comment on something before we should have scored on at least one probably all of the three 20 yard field goals from Hall. But there is a problem when our kicker buckles under pressure when he can kick 52 yards with no one there and miss a 47 yarder because you don't have any heart. Bring back Novak.

[Lavar703]

We all know what John Hall is capable of, every body knew he was going to miss, every fan in the stadium knew, we should have tried to get closer, 17 seconds is a long time in football, even with out TOs

[silverspring]

This thread should be titled Get Danny Smith out of DC. Don't forget frost had multiple junk punts. One that set the vikings up for a field goal. Not too mention the coverage was horrible leaving our holy defense with more trouble then they needed.

Danny Smith didn't bring competition for either hall and frost. Hall and Frost look just as bad as they did in pre-season. There should be zero suprise.

[3644Skins]

Please bring in a punter and kicker this week!!! Novak..anybody

[IllinoiSkinFan]

Frost and Hall should have never even been here.
I was sure after last season someone would figure it out!

I Respect the staff and all, but they really screwed up.

Run them both out on a rail!!!!

Perhaps after tonight they might look into correcting the problem.

If we can score in the red zone then we need to replace FROST.

[ryflan47]

I hate Frost and don't trust him at all, but after 1 bad punt today he really showed up.

[danny's stogie]

True but when we are going to be in that situation inevitably once in awhile it would be nice to even have a sliver of hope that the kick could be made.

Meh, 48 yard field goals are 50/50 with all kickers, he'll make the next one.

[IllinoiSkinFan]

We all know what John Hall is capable of, every body knew he was going to miss, every fan in the stadium knew, we should have tried to get closer, 17 seconds is a long time in football, even with out TOs

As soon as I saw them getting ready to kick I knew the game was over, my only hope was to see a fake kick.

But to be honest we really scewed up to get in that possition. What was with all the penalties?

[IllinoiSkinFan]

Meh, 48 yard field goals are 50/50 with all kickers, he'll make the next one.

Bet he does not.

[CarMike]

Meh, 48 yard field goals are 50/50 with all kickers, he'll make the next one.
Wish I shared your confidence in Hall.

[danny's stogie]

Please bring in a punter and kicker this week!!! Novak..anybody

What was wrong with Frost? He had one bad punt out of 5 and nailed a kick inside the 5 late in the game..

[HAWGZHEAD]

Meh, 48 yard field goals are 50/50 with all kickers, he'll make the next one.I don't believe he will, wish I could.

[ryflan47]

Meh, 48 yard field goals are 50/50 with all kickers, he'll make the next one.

He better not be around for the next one... I don't know what the heck the coaches see in him. All he does is kick field goals, and he can't at least give us a glimmer of hope. I mean come on, we all knew once the ball left his foot that it was over. He's got no skill. Sure, he can hit a 27 yarder. Congradulations. I want Novak.

[Death_Venom]

John Hall should f*cking drawn and quartered-and his entrails spread to the 4 corners of the earth.............ALL PRESEASON JOHN HALL has shown that he MUST BE CUT-PERIOD. This is TOTAL CRAP!!!!!!!!

[HAWGZHEAD]

What was wrong with Frost? He had one bad punt out of 5 and nailed a kick inside the 5 late in the game..As much as I hate Frost I have to agree that he played ok tonight. We can still get rid of him though :D

[Lavar703]

Where was the late hit on the sideline, i believe greg blue hit brandon lloyd with the forearm, it was a hell of a lot worse than Sean Taylors hit, i mean come on, mike carrys supposed to be the best ref in the NFL and he lets that go

[JakeIron]

Frost and Hall should have never even been here.
I was sure after last season someone would figure it out!

I Respect the staff and all, but they really screwed up.

Run them both out on a rail!!!!

Perhaps after tonight they might look into correcting the problem.

If we can score in the red zone then we need to replace FROST.

Exactly, its not John Hall's problem that he sucks. He has never made those kicks. Its the coaching staff who should know it better. If they are not satisfied with a kicker who can only kick from 40 yards or closer, then cut him. This one is on the coaches IMO. Everybody knew he's going to miss it.

[inevitable]

Meh, 48 yard field goals are 50/50 with all kickers, he'll make the next one.

That kick wouldn't have made it from 30 yards, so damn far off to the left

[MONK_in_HOF]

Hall is terrible. He looked shaky on every one of those kicks. I had absolutely no faith in the last FG going in after seeing the first 3.

[44FAN]

Where was the late hit on the sideline, i believe greg blue hit brandon lloyd with the forearm, it was a hell of a lot worse than Sean Taylors hit, i mean come on, mike carrys supposed to be the best ref in the NFL and he lets that go
The difference is Taylors got a rep and Blue doesn't. I think they're unfairly targeting him. I just hope he keeps knockin' dudes OUT.

[RedskinRyan]

i hate to say it, but adam vinatieri sure would look good in the b&g

[SkinsKY]

John Hall, you suck so bad. Under pressure you buckled, and cost us the game. You suck, leave D.C. now.

Wait, you want to blame John Hall but overlook the 9/17 third down conversions the vikes made? Most of those were in the second half and three were on that last touchdown drive of theirs. Maybe we should look at our defense for even letting it get that close. Yeah Hall should have made it, but Taylor earned 30 yards on two penalties late in the game. I guess you want him gone. Or perhaps all of our LBs who overpurused and let Chester Taylor pick up first downs. They're next to go. Rogers got beat for a TD and missed a couple tackles. He's gone. Our Offense couldn't convert TDs three times in the redzone. We need a new one of those too. Did I miss anyone? In a close loss, the responsibility falls on everyone, not just the kicker. His three field goals kept us in it when our offense couldn't muster the TDs.

[MWballer]

The kick had no hope and it hasn't just been this game its been the last two years he's been kicking horrible...Where's Nick Novak I think we should give him a call.

[ryflan47]

i hate to say it, but adam vinatieri sure would look good in the b&g
I hate to say it, but 30 other kickers sure would look good in the b&g.

[danny's stogie]

He better not be around for the next one... I don't know what the heck the coaches see in him. All he does is kick field goals, and he can't at least give us a glimmer of hope. I mean come on, we all knew once the ball left his foot that it was over. He's got no skill. Sure, he can hit a 27 yarder. Congradulations. I want Novak.

Yup, I also prefer the kicker who kicks it right into the back of the lines' head twice. :rolleyes:

You guys act like that kick should be a given. It's a 48 yarder at the end of the game for christ's sake.

[bgforever]

Its funny how we want to hold our tongue from blaming Joe Gibbs, who shoulders the WHOLE team, from the TOP position. He can take it, and he has to hear it. He's not perfect, and he'd be the first to tell you. He doesn't execute the plays, however, when entrusting the players with that. I suppose the same goes for Gregg Williams and Al Saunders. Danny Smith, friend or not, has to be wearing thin on Joe, for not doing enough to put more heat on his kicking game. Yet at this point, we live with it and suffer through it. There's something brewing and it will come. It won't be as far along as it took last season (after the 8th game or so). IT will be like week 2 or 3.

I think Joe Gibbs, Danny Smith's trust of certain players and at times Gregg Williams, is a bit too much. Like when I see a running back get dogged more than 4 times, I do what Saunders and Gibbs did, put some others in there, get some plays to jump start the running game. Because the small runs kill you by allowing defenses to load up on the 3rd downs, each time and you give their defense confidence. When Portis got in there, the "atmosphere" changed. I still believe it would be better to roll a player back a bit more when he keeps producing like one. I don't believe in promoting a player UP, when his game is down. Sorry, but I just can't stand to see Betts in as the backup to Portis, and I can live with the heat.

As far as the team, well stew on and I won't sulk. I will just wait, cause we all been through this before coach. Owner, FO, coaches, players, fans -All of us.

[lakeskin]

I hate to say it, but 30 other kickers sure would look good in the b&g.

That was funny.

[BostonSkins]

The last two big kicks Hall has attempted he hasn't even been close. He should have been cut after the playoffs last season, he should definitely be released now. He serves no purpose anymore.

[ryflan47]

Wait, you want to blame John Hall but overlook the 9/17 third down conversions the vikes made? Most of those were in the second half and three were on that last touchdown drive of theirs. Maybe we should look at our defense for even letting it get that close. Yeah Hall should have made it, but Taylor earned 30 yards on two penalties late in the game. I guess you want him gone. Or perhaps all of our LBs who overpurused and let Chester Taylor pick up first downs. They're next to go. Rogers got beat for a TD and missed a couple tackles. He's gone. Our Offense couldn't convert TDs three times in the redzone. We need a new one of those too. Did I miss anyone? In a close loss, the responsibility falls on everyone, not just the kicker. His three field goals kept us in it when our offense couldn't muster the TDs.

You made good points, but these other players are capable of better things. John Hall is NOT.

[RedskinRyan]

I hate to say it, but 30 other kickers sure would look good in the b&g.

lol, true

i still think we shoulda made a push for AV though

and i dont think the blame falls squarely on john hall. it is a tough kick to make. but it was teh defense that let us down. the frequent sean taylor penalties, and the inability to stop the pass. we surely missed springs out there.

[Biggie]

What good is a kicker who has a 10% chance of making a kick of longer than 35 yards?

[danny's stogie]

Well, the good news is that at least Holdman has lost his goat status in favor of Hall. We wouldn't want the fanbase to not have someone to vilify. :rolleyes:

[HAWGZHEAD]

Yup, I also prefer the kicker who kicks it right into the back of the lines' head twice. :rolleyes:

You guys act like that kick should be a given. It's a 48 yarder at the end of the game for christ's sake.I just wish I didn't know that the game was over the second El didn't get the 1st down.

[RedskinsVision]

Taking away his kickoff duties which admits to us all that his leg is shot and he's still on the team shanking every FG? Even the 20 yarders were ugly.

[Lavar703]

I understand what your saying exactly, but my point is what was the reason for giving up a 3rd and 4th and swapping first rounders with denver if were not going to use TJ Duckett where he is most effective, IN THE REDZONE

[ryflan47]

Yup, I also prefer the kicker who kicks it right into the back of the lines' head twice. :rolleyes:

You guys act like that kick should be a given. It's a 48 yarder at the end of the game for christ's sake.

I understand that this kick shouldn't be a given. But it wasn't even close.
We have also seen a trend of Hall missing field goals, and this is really a problem that needs to be addressed. Do you agree on that?

[silverspring]

Its funny how we want to hold our tongue from blaming Joe Gibbs, who shoulders the WHOLE team, from the TOP position. He can take it, and he has to hear it. He's not perfect, and he'd be the first to tell you. He doesn't execute the plays, however, when entrusting the players with that. I suppose the same goes for Gregg Williams and Al Saunders. Danny Smith, friend or not, has to be wearing thin on Joe, for not doing enough to put more heat on his kicking game. Yet at this point, we live with it and suffer through it. There's something brewing and it will come. It won't be as far along as it took last season (after the 8th game or so). IT will be like week 2 or 3.

I think Joe Gibbs, Danny Smith's trust of certain players and at times Gregg Williams, is a bit too much. Like when I see a running back get dogged more than 4 times, I do what Saunders and Gibbs did, put some others in there, get some plays to jump start the running game. Because the small runs kill you by allowing defenses to load up on the 3rd downs, each time and you give their defense confidence. When Portis got in there, the "atmosphere" changed. I still believe it would be better to roll a player back a bit more when he keeps producing like one. I don't believe in promoting a player UP, when his game is down. Sorry, but I just can't stand to see Betts in as the backup to Portis, and I can live with the heat.

As far as the team, well stew on and I won't sulk. I will just wait, cause we all been through this before coach. Owner, FO, coaches, players, fans -All of us.


agreed. Again Frost and Hall showed us nothing different then they did in pre-season. This shouldn't have been a suprise to us or the coaches. This goes right to danny smith and then after that right to gibbs. All our coaches talk a big game about how important special teams is to this team. Well if they all care so much I don't see how these guys are still on the team or at least how they went through preseason with no competition.

Danny Smith should be fired.

[ryflan47]

I understand what your saying exactly, but my point is what was the reason for giving up a 3rd and 4th and swapping first rounders with denver if were not going to use TJ Duckett where he is most effective, IN THE REDZONE

I don't understand this either. Is this trade going to prove to be useless?

[ryflan47]

Well, the good news is that at least Holdman has lost his goat status in favor of Hall. We wouldn't want the fanbase to not have someone to vilify. :rolleyes:

He did have one really nice looking tackle up the middle.

[danny's stogie]

I understand that this kick shouldn't be a given. But it wasn't even close.
We have also seen a trend of Hall missing field goals, and this is really a problem that needs to be addressed. Do you agree on that?

He was 6 for 7 from 40-49 last season. I know we all want him to go 12 for 7, but it just isn't possible statistically.

[vbskins]

I KNOW I WILL GET MURDERED FOR SAYING THIS BUT WE LOST TONIGHT BECAUSE OF our starters played so little in preseason. we had no consistency on offense. But mostly our defense lacked conditioning.

We also lost because Springs was out. These guys trying to cover TO, Glenn, and Whitten scares me

[Apache]

Yes, he was awesome at one time but, being plagued and hindered by his leg injury's are just too much to bear. What tee'd me off tonight was that it was plenty long enough which means he still has the strength but, his accuracy is not what it once was. We haven't had a healthy or decent kicker for so long that it's time we find that star. I remember the days of Chip Loemiller and Turk where you knew it was automatic when you were in field goal range. We haven't had anyone since then that fit the bill. We spend money to get players who can keep us out of that situation of relying on kicking but, it always seems like it still comes down to it all too often throughout the league so it's time to pony up some cash for a golden foot.

[skins74]

Atleast Frost can tackle.....

[santanadasavior]

Bet he does not.

He'll make it if it's meaningless.

[Lavar703]

Unfortunately that tackle didnt put him on the IR!!!!!!!!!!!!

[danny's stogie]

I KNOW I WILL GET MURDERED FOR SAYING THIS BUT WE LOST TONIGHT BECAUSE OF our starters played so little in preseason. we had no consistency on offense. But mostly our defense lacked conditioning.



You won't get killed for this, I completely agree with you. I hope the team is fresher towards the end of the season because of it.

[Lavar703]

I couldnt have been the only person praying for Minn. to call a TO when John Hall trotted out onto the field

[santanadasavior]

Yes, he was awesome at one time but, being plagued and hindered by his leg injury's are just too much to bear. What tee'd me off tonight was that it was plenty long enough which means he still has the strength but, his accuracy is not what it once was. We haven't had a healthy or decent kicker for so long that it's time we find that star. I remember the days of Chip Loemiller and Turk where you knew it was automatic when you were in field goal range. We haven't had anyone since then that fit the bill. We spend money to get players who can keep us out of that situation of relying on kicking but, it always seems like it still comes down to it all too often throughout the league so it's time to pony up some cash for a golden foot.

I was going to say that if on line that kick would have made it from 55 yards. It had plenty of leg. Which also confuses me because his kickoffs go to the 20, giving them any positive yard would be better than what you look for. He needs to be gone because he has no ice in his veins.

[ryflan47]

Atleast Frost can tackle.....
Frost tackles better than Hall kicks...

[santanadasavior]

You won't get killed for this, I completely agree with you. I hope the team is fresher towards the end of the season because of it.
One more thing is that we didn't even score a touchdown until the the end of our second game last year. We are ahead of that. We are gelling as a team much faster than we were last year. We came on strong.

[OCSKINSFAN]

It was not all Hall's fault. Let's face it, the Skins got outplayed. Had it not been for the penalties on the Vikings, the game would not have been close. The offense didn't do much and the defense could not stop the Vikes on 3rd down. By the way, did you see a pass rush or hear Carter's name mentioned? Even if Hall would have made the kick it would have been overtime, and the Vikes were playing better. All that said, it's amazing Hall is still on the team. I blame that on Gibbs. He goes overboard on loyalty. He did the same in the 04 season when he continued to play Brunell when he was horrible (I believe due to injury, but he still couldn't perform and should have been replaced, except for Gibbs' loyalty to him). Gibbs is not perfect - he has his flaws.

[taylor21]

John Hall, you suck so bad. Under pressure you buckled, and cost us the game. You suck, leave D.C. now.
its not halls fault,maybe its the 8 points we left on the feild what u think about that,we get those he does not have to kick the fg at the end!!! what about how bad out def played think that might have something to do with it?
dont put it all on hall

[danny's stogie]

One more thing is that we didn't even score a touchdown until the the end of our second game last year. We are ahead of that. We are gelling as a team much faster than we were last year. We came on strong.

I'm not too worried in general. There are some individual concerns I have with certain players doing certain things, but I think we discount the Vikes. They look A LOT better than last season. BJ played a great game, he had roughly 3 poor throws all night. Give him some credit. Also, give the Vikes some props for not turning the ball over. It's tough to beat teams that don't make mistakes, just like it was tough for the Vikes to beat the Skins who didn't make any real mental errors aside from the ST facemask.

In general, this was one of the best-played football games I saw all weekend and I expect good things from both teams.

[HAWGZHEAD]

I'm not too worried in general. There are some individual concerns I have with certain players doing certain things, but I think we discount the Vikes. They look A LOT better than last season. BJ played a great game, he had roughly 3 poor throws all night. Give him some credit. Also, give the Vikes some props for not turning the ball over. It's tough to beat teams that don't make mistakes, just like it was tough for the Vikes to beat the Skins who didn't make any real mental errors aside from the ST facemask.

Totally agree with all of this.

Little off-topic but I wish we would have used El on that last kickoff return. I have to believe in an all or nothing time in the game El would be better than Betts at this.

[shally]

Atleast Frost can tackle.....

got to do something when you kickoff to the 20...

he did have a couple of decent kickoffs.. but tonight it wasn't his fault. he had a great punt to the 2

[the real moss89]

It is not completely Hall's fault but i still want him out of DC. Even though it was only one kick, he has been declining over the past 2 seasons.

[ryflan47]

got to do something when you kickoff to the 20...

he did have a couple of decent kickoffs.. but tonight it wasn't his fault. he had a great punt to the 2

I really hope the spin he put on that ball was intentional, because it took a favorable hop.

[Dept_of_Defense]

i hate to say it, but adam vinatieri sure would look good in the b&g
Man, I really wish we would've spent the cheese to get Vinatieri. He looked like a machine last night for Indy. The guy kicks everything straight down the middle, rain, snow, sleet, wind, eyes closed......I'm so pissed right now.....

[danny's stogie]

Man, I really wish we would've spent the cheese to get Vinatieri. He looked like a machine last night for Indy. The guy kicks everything straight down the middle, rain, snow, sleet, wind, eyes closed......I'm so pissed right now.....

You know, even Vinateri missed a kick in the playoffs last season.

[JakeIron]

Man I Love the Steve Young's comment "You Gotta Hit The Net, you just have to at this level!!!" I didn't realize that Hall actually missed the whole net behind the goal posts. Man that was ugly...

[PennSkinsFan]

I said this almost five months ago. You want the Redskins to impove, i said it, simply replace John Hall and Derrick Frost. I have complained about STS for 3 friggin years and I was loud about this off-season. We had an excellent off-season to upgrade and did nothing. To each his own and we need to play the game with what Gibbs overlooked, period.

[shally]

Man, I really wish we would've spent the cheese to get Vinatieri. He looked like a machine last night for Indy. The guy kicks everything straight down the middle, rain, snow, sleet, wind, eyes closed......I'm so pissed right now.....

longwell would have been just fine... but, so be it...

[Dept_of_Defense]

You know, even Vinateri missed a kick in the playoffs last season.
Yeah, but 99% of the time you know it's going through the uprights. I'm sick of getting on my hands and knees and praying everytime we have to kick a field goal.....whether it's 25 yards, 30 yards, 35 yards...............I still hold my breath for extra points sometimes

[ryflan47]

I just finished eating the last of my crow from last season, but I don't believe John Hall can prove any of us wrong. He's just gotten too old.

[shally]

I said this almost five months ago. You want the Redskins to impove, i said it, simply replace John Hall and Derrick Frost. I have complained about STS for 3 friggin years and I was loud about this off-season. We had an excellent off-season to upgrade and did nothing. To each his own and we need to play the game with what Gibbs overlooked, period.

amen !!! they spend a gazillion dollars upgrading one position after another but leave the kicker/punter position alone... i could live with frost, but halls defects get translated immediately into points won or lost..

[LATrueRedskin]

I just finished eating the last of my crow from last season, but I don't believe John Hall can prove any of us wrong. He's just gotten too old.

I don't think it's that. His confidence is shot, and that's pretty much half of what goes into being a kicker. Having the leg to kick it, and having the confidence to kick it. His ball had more than enough distance on it, but it was no where near center.

Hall is worrying about re-injuring himself during each kick, and folded under the pressure when it came down to it. The problem now is, after missing a kick with the magnitude of that one, it'll be extremely hard to get his mind back on the right track and start kicking like he's going to make them.

[PennSkinsFan]

amen !!! they spend a gazillion dollars upgrading one position after another but leave the kicker/punter position alone... i could live with frost, but halls defects get translated immediately into points won or lost..

BUT get used to it. This is a decision even the nominal fan could see as suspect. Kicking I predict will be problematic throughout the 2006 season. Hmmmmmm, I believe i made that very same decision in 2005. And here we are again.

[danny's stogie]

Get out the soapbox: Seriously, this is why I post mostly in the other forums. Every week it's something or someone to pick on. He missed a 48 yard kick, get over it. He went 5 for 6 from 40-49 last season, yet apparently everyone and their mother can kick better than him.

[ryflan47]

I don't think it's that. His confidence is shot, and that's pretty much half of what goes into being a kicker. Having the leg to kick it, and having the confidence to kick it. His ball had more than enough distance on it, but it was no where near center.

Hall is worrying about re-injuring himself during each kick, and folded under the pressure when it came down to it. The problem now is, after missing a kick with the magnitude of that one, it'll be extremely hard to get his mind back on the right track and start kicking like he's going to make them.

That's really interesting. I wonder if he is over-conscious about getting hurt.

[shally]

BUT get used to it. This is a decision even the nominal fan could see as suspect. Kicking I predict will be problematic throughout the 2006 season. Hmmmmmm, I believe i made that very same decision in 2005. And here we are again.

somewhere way back there is one of my posts that says the first 2 free agent pick ups should be longwell and zastudil..

maybe we do not see what is going on in camp but it is reasonably obvious what is going on when hall kicked in preseason.. and now this game

agree this is going to be an area of vulnerability all season

[Fathead]

The lack of a reliable kicker is going to bite us. Badly.

[ryflan47]

Don't think I'm jumping ship, but just out of pure curiosity; What kickers are available in the coming offseason?

[PennSkinsFan]

Get out the soapbox: Seriously, this is why I post mostly in the other forums. Every week it's something or someone to pick on. He missed a 48 yard kick, get over it. He went 5 for 6 from 40-49 last season, yet apparently everyone and their mother can kick better than him.

Oh please danny. John Hall has been an onjury and kickoff prob;lem since his arrival. My friend, you get over it. John Hall has been a consistent nothing since his quad injury. Is he the sole problem? hell no. Is he a big problem? hell yes. Will he continue to be, Yup, thats for sure.

If you can't handle criticism thats your problem, but were not giving green passes out here because press releases say we should, period!

[danny's stogie]

Oh please danny. John Hall has been an onjury and kickoff prob;lem since his arrival. My friend, you get over it. John Hall has been a consistent nothing since his quad injury. Is he the sole problem? hell no. Is he a big problem? hell yes. Will he continue to be, Yup, thats for sure.

If you can't handle criticism thats your problem, but were not giving green passes out here because press releases say we should, period!

The injuries are a problem, if he's in the lineup he is not a problem and has never been a problem, but hey, we're fickle, we can turn on players in a split second the instant they become less than perfect because we all need to put a face on our blame.

[PennSkinsFan]

The injuries are a problem, if he's in the lineup he is not a problem and has never been a problem, but hey, we're fickle, we can turn on players in a split second the instant they become less than perfect because we all need to put a face on our blame.

I turned on John Hall almost two years ago when he suffered his quad injury, Conwayesque. Hall has not been the same since. My problem here is, college wise and free agent wise, this was a great year for kickers and we did nothing. Now were stuck, period. you say that is bashing a player for a loss, i say i have been bashing our kicking game for nearly two years. This really is nothing different.

[shally]

The injuries are a problem, if he's in the lineup he is not a problem and has never been a problem, but hey, we're fickle, we can turn on players in a split second the instant they become less than perfect because we all need to put a face on our blame.

that is the life of a kicker inthe nfl.. they know it when they take the job.. guys get the snot kicked out of them for 4 quarters so someone who is making over a million dollars per year can come onthe field and MAKE the kick, not miss it..if you cannot handle the pressure or make the kicks for whatever reason, you are gone. it might be the most stressfull 3 seconds inthe world.. but that is the nature of the job..

i think hall is not the same kicker he was before he got injured.. he is not a bum or a deviant.. he has just become unreliable

[rhummer37]

What FA would you replace him with RIGHT NOW?

Why cut a veteran like J. Hall for some no name. AND, we have too much money locked into him to make it practical, or so I thought.

Let's be serious, J. Hall was a small part of losing this game. There are only a handfull of kickers who consitently make FG's over 45 yards.

Quit whining, it's only week one, and we were never going to win them all.

[suppitty]

We didn't deserve to win the game. He shouldn't have had to kick 3 field goals inside 30 yards.

[PennSkinsFan]

What FA would you replace him with RIGHT NOW?

Why cut a veteran like J. Hall for some no name. AND, we have too much money locked into him to make it practical, or so I thought.

Let's be serious, J. Hall was a small part of losing this game. There are only a handfull of kickers who consitently make FG's over 45 yards.

Quit whining, it's only week one, and we were never going to win them all.

No one now, nor am I advocating that. I jusr said we missed an opportunity and gambled on a guy that has been injured for two years. Replace him now. Ummmmm, no. Nothing we can do now, but if you think this is it, welll, we'll see

[shally]

What FA would you replace him with RIGHT NOW?

Why cut a veteran like J. Hall for some no name. AND, we have too much money locked into him to make it practical, or so I thought.

Let's be serious, J. Hall was a small part of losing this game. There are only a handfull of kickers who consitently make FG's over 45 yards.

Quit whining, it's only week one, and we were never going to win them all.

may not be a viable alternative to hall right now, so we live and die with him for now

and yes, hall put most of the points onthe scoreboard. there is blame enough to go around.. but... hall is paid to make that last kick.. he has nothing in his contract that says it is okay to miss from beyond 40 yard--with the game on the line.. he simply needed to make that kick. and he didn't. game over

[danny's stogie]

What FA would you replace him with RIGHT NOW?

Why cut a veteran like J. Hall for some no name. AND, we have too much money locked into him to make it practical, or so I thought.

Let's be serious, J. Hall was a small part of losing this game. There are only a handfull of kickers who consitently make FG's over 45 yards.

Quit whining, it's only week one, and we were never going to win them all.

Well said, but we can always sign Novak so that in addition to missing the 48 yarder he misses 1 of the first 3 as well. :rolleyes:

that is the life of a kicker inthe nfl.. they know it when they take the job.. guys get the snot kicked out of them for 4 quarters so someone who is making over a million dollars per year can come onthe field and MAKE the kick, not miss it..if you cannot handle the pressure or make the kicks for whatever reason, you are gone. it might be the most stressfull 3 seconds inthe world.. but that is the nature of the job..

You're reactionary. The guy misses one kick and he's a bum. I'm glad you didn't see when I played a D7 #9 instead of flat 9 in prep for a G min, you might shatter my confidence as a guitar player.

[shally]

Well said, but we can always sign Novak so that in addition to missing the 48 yarder he misses 1 of the first 3 as well. :rolleyes:



You're reactionary. The guy misses one kick and he's a bum. I'm glad you didn't see when I played a D7 #9 instead of flat 9 in prep for a G min, you might shatter my confidence as a guitar player.

don't even go there, my friend... for almost 30 years i lived with the need to be perfect on every surgery i performed.. every one.. it was your dad, or my aunt minny, or someone's precious daughter... they were ALL 50 yarders and every one had to be perfect.
i have flubbed more chords and be hooted on stage more times that you will ever be.. i will never be the artist that you are now even if i practiced till my fingers bled...i know that
BUT that is not the issue

hall is paid that incredible amount of money to do just one thing.. make a 45 yarder to tie or win a game as time expires.. that is the standard by which all kickers are measured. tonight he failed. there is no getting around that

the question is whether the next time he needs to do that same thing he will be up to it.. you have confidence in him.. i do not. i didn't this off season and i do not now.. that is all we are disagreeing on

[danny's stogie]

don't even go there, my friend... for almost 30 years i lived with the need to be perfect on every surgery i performed.. every one.. it was your dad, or my aunt minny, or someone's precious daughter... they were ALL 50 yarders and every one had to be perfect.
i have flubbed more chords and be hooted on stage more times that you will ever be.. i will never be the artist that you are now even if i practiced till my fingers bled...i know that
BUT that is not the issue

hall is paid that incredible amount of money to do just one thing.. make a 45 yarder to tie or win a game as time expires.. that is the standard by which all kickers are measured. tonight he failed. there is no getting around that

the question is whether the next time he needs to do that same thing he will be up to it.. you have confidence in him.. i do not. i didn't this off season and i do not now.. that is all we are disagreeing on

No, kickers are supposed to make 99% of the short ones. Once you get into 45+ yarders it isn't a given no matter who is kicking.

[shally]

No, kickers are supposed to make 99% of the short ones. Once you get into 45+ yarders it isn't a given no matter who is kicking.

okay.. then we need to revisit this discussion after games in the future when one of us is proved wrong by events to come..i genuinely hope you are right and i am wrong

[danny's stogie]

okay.. then we need to revisit this discussion after games in the future when one of us is proved wrong by events to come..i genuinely hope you are right and i am wrong

Really? I get the sense from a lot of posts in this forum that people would rather a player fail to prove them right than have said player succeed and help the Skins win -- and this doesn't just apply to you or to Hall.

I think as long as Hall is healthy he'll be fine. He's been solid when in the lineup and I don't think one miss changes that.

[whitskins]

Hall is just one of many factors that resulted in this loss. It was truly a team loss, as many areas of the game were lacking, yet we still had a very good chance to win against what I now consider a pretty good team.

Hall doesn't have much of my confidence anymore even though I have defended him quite a bit in the past. Although, replacing him with Novak wouldn't be much of a gain in my opinion and could be even more of a loss in the future. The same goes for any unemployed kicker right now.

[shally]

Really? I get the sense from a lot of posts in this forum that people would rather a player fail to prove them right than have said player succeed and help the Skins win -- and this doesn't just apply to you or to Hall.

I think as long as Hall is healthy he'll be fine. He's been solid when in the lineup and I don't think one miss changes that.

i have no issues other than wanting the skins to win... i don't care if i am wrong a thousand times.. as long as the skins win.. i take zero pleasure in this because, frankly, when the skins lose i am miserable...

[LATrueRedskin]

Hall is just one of many factors that resulted in this loss. It was truly a team loss, as many areas of the game were lacking, yet we still had a very good chance to win against what I now consider a pretty good team.

Hall doesn't have much of my confidence anymore even though I have defended him quite a bit in the past. Although, replacing him with Novak wouldn't be much of a gain in my opinion and could be even more of a loss in the future. The same goes for any unemployed kicker right now.

Hall has had my backing as well, and still does. I favor him greatly over going out and getting some guy off the street.

[danny's stogie]

i have no issues other than wanting the skins to win... i don't care if i am wrong a thousand times.. as long as the skins win.. i take zero pleasure in this because, frankly, when the skins lose i am miserable...

I'm glad you feel that way, but there are posters on this board who still get a sense of enjoyment at every mistake Brunell makes, etc. How about some people eating crow about Frost's game? 4 out of 5 good punts as well as pinning the Vikes inside their 5 late in the game. I want to see some of the people who bashed him all offseason come and take the same attitude you have.

[jporterweb]

I didn't see if anyone else said this, but what the heck was Randle El thinking not getting that first down? He wasn't even close to getting over that freakin marker. We should've had a few more shots at the endzone if he would've taken a hit going accross the marker. He would've been knocked out of bounds anyways. Get the first then we don't kick that field goal yet.

[OCSKINSFAN]

Hall has had my backing as well, and still does. I favor him greatly over going out and getting some guy off the street.

What gives you so much confidence in Hall - Last year? The preseason? This game? The team needs to at least look at other alternatives.

[redskin_rich]

The time to replace Hall was over the offseason, I don't think anybody that is available now would be an upgrade.
I'm sure this has been stated but I'm not reading through this entire thread at this hour. A 48 yard field goal is not at all a gimme and furthermore, the playclock was running down, it was 4th down and we had no time outs. The play had to be rushed and frankly, I was surprised we even got it off at all.

[LATrueRedskin]

What gives you so much confidence in Hall - Last year? The preseason? This game? The team needs to at least look at other alternatives.

Yeah, last year. He hit 85% of his kicks last year. His problem has been injuries and getting over those injuries. There's a reason those other kickers are out on the street.

[LATrueRedskin]

The time to replace Hall was over the offseason, I don't think anybody that is available now would be an upgrade.
I'm sure this has been stated but I'm not reading through this entire thread at this hour. A 48 yard field goal is not at all a gimme and furthermore, the playclock was running down, it was 4th down and we had no time outs. The play had to be rushed and frankly, I was surprised we even got it off at all.

The clock was stopped wasn't it? We had the full playclock to line up and make that kick if I'm not mistaken.

[redskin_rich]

The clock was stopped wasn't it? We had the full playclock to line up and make that kick if I'm not mistaken.
Not the playclock, it was down to 5 seconds when they got lined up. The game clock was stopped at 17 seconds.

[LATrueRedskin]

Not the playclock, it was down to 5 seconds when they got lined up. The game clock was stopped at 17 seconds.

I know, but we had the full 35 seconds of the playclock to line up and make that kick, maybe 5 or so seconds less because of Coach deciding whether or not to do it.

[redskin_rich]

I know, but we had the full 35 seconds of the playclock to line up and make that kick, maybe 5 or so seconds less because of Coach deciding whether or not to do it.
Because of the decision and having to run the offense off the field and the FG unit on, all the time was gone. I remember vividly watching the playclock ticking down in single digits as they hurried to get lined up. If anyone has it recorded and if they showed the playclock, please check and verify this, so I know that I didn't have a hallucination, lol.

[dcumdfan]

My problem with Hall isnt with the fact that he missed the field goal, but rather with never really having a chance. I just dont think Hall has the leg to go outside of 40 anymore.

If you cant kick the ball off, and you cant make a 40+ yard FG, why are you still on the team? With all the games decided by 3 or less the last few years you would figure this would have been covered in the offseason.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I don't think it's Hall's fault he is still on the team. What was he supposed to do, quit? It's the front ofice that should have taken care of a situation that is iffy at best any way you look at it. Especially this year when the best kicker in the game was a FA, and so were a couple of other good ones, including Longwell.
I don't know how much Vinatieri is making, but I would take him over every FA acquisition we made except ARE.

[bigcmr]

I knew he was going too miss it. He didnt look too confident on kicking a 27 yarder. I knew there was no way he was going to nail a 47 yarder. I think its time too give Novak a call.

[MONK_in_HOF]

I knew he was going too miss it. He didnt look too confident on kicking a 27 yarder. I knew there was no way he was going to nail a 47 yarder. I think its time too give Novak a call.

I had the exact same feeling. Not sure Novak is the answer or if anyone out there is at this point. I think we are stuck with Hall. :banghead:
I am have a feeling I won't even be able to watch FGs this year, just like when they had Max Zendejas back in the day.

[Redskinmayhem]

Cut john hall, its 4th and 1 and you kick a 47 yard field goal, give me a break, this has got to stop, How about cut kenny wright? why didnt we use TJ duckett in the red zone? Why do we have Rock Cartwright returning kicks? Why is Danny Smith still special teams coach? Why didnt we throw the ball to Cooley? Whats with Archuleta allowing every catch across the middle? Can Carlos Rogers actually be a good corner? These are all questions we have to answer in order to win this year.

sorry to quote from page 1 but this is what I keep asking myself.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Cut john hall, its 4th and 1 and you kick a 47 yard field goal, give me a break, this has got to stop, How about cut kenny wright? why didnt we use TJ duckett in the red zone? Why do we have Rock Cartwright returning kicks? Why is Danny Smith still special teams coach? Why didnt we throw the ball to Cooley? Whats with Archuleta allowing every catch across the middle? Can Carlos Rogers actually be a good corner? These are all questions we have to answer in order to win this year.
I'm sorry but this makes absolutely no sense. Regardless of who your kicker is, with 15 seconds left, no TOs, a 4th down, and down by 3, you kick the FG. What were we supposed to do? A QB sneak or a run up the middle to gain a whopping 2 yards and not have enough time to put the FG team on the field?? If Gibbs had gone for the first down, he should have been sent to the nearest mental institute right away.

[Red Bear]

i have no confidence in hall, havent trusted him in 2 years. The issue really isnt his leg strength on long field goals, but his accuracy. he has yet to show us he can hit from 40+ yards out this season/preseason. i dont think he is comfortable after his surgery, i think he is timid and worried he is going to injure something else on each and every kick he attempts, its mentally bothering him.

[bwparker]

Pure numbers, No opinion:

Career(1997 - 2005):
30+ yards - 66.8%
40+ yards - 56.1%
50+ yards - 46.4%

Early Career (1997 - 2003)
30+ yards - 66.5%
40+ yards - 56.3%
50+ yards - 50.0%

Last two years(not including last night):
30+ yards - 70.6%
40+ yards - 54.5%
50+ yards - 0.0% (He's only attempted two.)


IMO -

It seems fairly obvious that (before or after injury...) a kick from 48 yards from John Hall has ALWAYS been about a 50/50 shot. I'm pissed that he missed too, but the outrage that "He MUST make those kicks!!" seems a little ridiculous to me. The numbers are clear. When you ask for him to kick from that distance he is 50/50. We knew that going into the season, we knew that going into the game and MORE IMPORTANTLY Gibbs knew that when he brought the kicking team out onto the field. He knew he was flipping a coin. He was hoping for heads, but we got tails.

But there is nothing new here. This miss changes nothing.

BTW...he hasn't missed from inside the 30 in six years.

[bwparker]

Just some more numbers:

Neil Rackers (Career - Hottest Kicker right now)
30+ - 70.5
40+ - 68.2
50+ - 66.7

Mike Vanderjagt (Career - most accurate kicker EVER)
30+ - 82.9
40+ - 77.5
50+ - 66.6

Adam Vinatieri (Career - Most "clutch" kicker)
30+ - 74.4
40+ - 71.0
50+ - 47.1

Jay Feely (Career - #4 Fantasy K projection)
30+ - 73.4%
40+ - 59.0%
50+ - 40.0%

Jason Elam (Career - #5 fantatsy kicker projection - Gets benefit of kicking in Denver's thin air...helps distance)
30+ - 72.9%
40+ - 62.0%
50+ - 60.3%



Just for comparisons sake...

[shally]

Pure numbers, No opinion:

Career(1997 - 2005):
30+ yards - 66.8%
40+ yards - 56.1%
50+ yards - 46.4%

Early Career (1997 - 2003)
30+ yards - 66.5%
40+ yards - 56.3%
50+ yards - 50.0%

Last two years(not including last night):
30+ yards - 70.6%
40+ yards - 54.5%
50+ yards - 0.0% (He's only attempted two.)


IMO -

It seems fairly obvious that (before or after injury...) a kick from 48 yards from John Hall has ALWAYS been about a 50/50 shot. I'm pissed that he missed too, but the outrage that "He MUST make those kicks!!" seems a little ridiculous to me. The numbers are clear. When you ask for him to kick from that distance he is 50/50. We knew that going into the season, we knew that going into the game and MORE IMPORTANTLY Gibbs knew that when he brought the kicking team out onto the field. He knew he was flipping a coin. He was hoping for heads, but we got tails.

But there is nothing new here. This miss changes nothing.

BTW...he hasn't missed from inside the 30 in six years.

great points you make.. i just think this team cannot afford to have a kicker who makes 50% from 45 yards and out.. we are going to play too many close games for this to be acceptable. no matter what his name is..

that said, i doubt there are very many if any kickers out there now than can give you much better.. but we better be looking at least for the practice squad, just in case hall starts having the yips closer in

[BurgundyNGold]

I don't like John Hall. I would've liked to see him gone last season. But, we didn't replace him so we're stuck with him for the rest of the season I'm afraid.

[AliBabba]

I don't like John Hall. I would've liked to see him gone last season. But, we didn't replace him so we're stuck with him for the rest of the season I'm afraid.
Agreed. What happened last night could have happened to any kicker in the league, because a 47 yarder at the end of the game is not a gimmie for anyone. There are many that are better than John hall, but we won't have a chance at any of them until next year.

We need to concentrate on putting ourselves in a position where we are relying on him to make such a difficult kick.

[bwparker]

I think that if you have a very very good kicker (top 5-10) you are 60-65% from that range...a 48 yard kick is never garaunteed. Its pushing it.

I just think, if you are unhappy with Hall. Thats fine. But don't cite last night as the reason why. Or more specifically, don't say that last night is evidence that he's "lost it". He was never a great kicker, he was a very good one. The last two years he lost his highend distance(45+), but actually made gains in short and mid range accuracy(anything less) all while having a his muslce detached from the bone...He's had surgery to fix that and is now coming back. It would have been smart to pursue other options, but quite frankly its not John Hall's fault we didn't.

I think Hall has performed up to or very close to what he had been doing prior to his injuries (and therefore what we should have expected) and has fought through them while the medical staff misdiagnosed him for two years. If you feel that it hasn't been enough, that injuries happen and the team should have moved on, I can't disagree. BUt again, I just don't think that's John Halls fault. The FO and coaching staff have gotten, IMO, exactly what we should be expecting from Hall.

[vabeach_skinsfan]

I knew he was going to miss it, I was just praying that it would go in anyway. We should have never let the game get to the point where we leave it up to him to win/tie a game, his heart pumps cherry kool-aid.

[Syllable]

Lets bash frost some more.

Maybe if frost didnt suck, we could have paid attention to a kicker?

[ryflan47]

Lets bash frost some more.

Maybe if frost didnt suck, we could have paid attention to a kicker?

How does that have to do anything with it?

[Red Bear]

Lets bash frost some more.

Maybe if frost didnt suck, we could have paid attention to a kicker?

get off of it, theres no need to hate on frost right now, hes actually had two pretty decent games in a row going back to the ravens game. id much rather have frost punting than hall place kicking right now. hall is done, if dont get a kicker this year or next to replace him then i feel sorry for the team, the fans, and everyone else. i dont think hall can turn things around either, dude cant make a 40+ yard kick anymore, its like he is overcompensating or something, i dunno. when hall came onto the field last night to attempt to tie the game, all i could tell myself was "well, hall, this is your chance to renew my trust in you" which means i havent had confidence in hall in a while, the last 2-3 years really. when a kicker starts having multiple leg injuries and is up in age, its usually time to get rid of them. bottom line is we need a fresh leg to kick our field goals and a kicker who can kickoff as well.

[Skins-R-Us]

Hall may be the worst Kicker in the NFL. Can't kick off and can't kick field goals. What exactly is his skill? He is the weakest link of this team and with our schedule and division we will only be as good as our weakest link. That prospect sucks!!

[shally]

get off of it, theres no need to hate on frost right now, hes actually had two pretty decent games in a row going back to the ravens game. id much rather have frost punting than hall place kicking right now. hall is done, if dont get a kicker this year or next to replace him then i feel sorry for the team, the fans, and everyone else. i dont think hall can turn things around either, dude cant make a 40+ yard kick anymore, its like he is overcompensating or something, i dunno. when hall came onto the field last night to attempt to tie the game, all i could tell myself was "well, hall, this is your chance to renew my trust in you" which means i havent had confidence in hall in a while, the last 2-3 years really. when a kicker starts having multiple leg injuries and is up in age, its usually time to get rid of them. bottom line is we need a fresh leg to kick our field goals and a kicker who can kickoff as well.

i think that is a very good point. once kickers get leg injuries it has to play with their minds.. if they start thinking about their stroke or it becomes less smooth and natural it can go downhill in a hurry.
not saying that is what is happening to hall now, but i would be concerned at the very least
the advantage of a young kicker is that you do not usually have those issues BUT you have the issue of making kicks under pressure, which is huge. there is no substitute for experience in that regard

i just think they need to keep hall on a very short leash to see what he is going to do over the next few games.. maybe he can kick his way out of it.. and maybe he can't

[Syllable]

get off of it, theres no need to hate on frost right now, hes actually had two pretty decent games in a row going back to the ravens game. id much rather have frost punting than hall place kicking right now. hall is done, if dont get a kicker this year or next to replace him then i feel sorry for the team, the fans, and everyone else. i dont think hall can turn things around either, dude cant make a 40+ yard kick anymore, its like he is overcompensating or something, i dunno. when hall came onto the field last night to attempt to tie the game, all i could tell myself was "well, hall, this is your chance to renew my trust in you" which means i havent had confidence in hall in a while, the last 2-3 years really. when a kicker starts having multiple leg injuries and is up in age, its usually time to get rid of them. bottom line is we need a fresh leg to kick our field goals and a kicker who can kickoff as well.
Whichever way you see it, punts dont shank Punts. Sometimes they shank one every 3 years, he shanked on the opener, and to elaborate on my post before,

Maybe if frost didnt suck, we could have paid attention to a kicker? If Frost was kicking 80 yard boots all pre-season. Those John Hall misses during the pre-season would have started more CUT JOHN HALL threads then instead of now.

[Apache]

I can't say that I dislike Hall. I just think that because of his injuries that it's time we move on at the end of the season. There was a time he was thought of more highly but, not anymore.

[dj_stouty]

BWParker brings up a great point. The kick was a 50/50 shot...and even the great Adam Vintieri has a career % of under 50 percent on long kicks.

I've always given Hall the benefit of the doubt, because I've watched him personally stop (tackle) a returner who was headed for an easy 6 points after out-running the rest of the coverage team. In my eyes...that is 18 points he helped defend.

But I question if the guy is 100% healthy. Sort of reminds me of Brunell in his first season with the Skins when he wasn't fully healthy.

I just said in another thread that we will play a LOT of close games, so I'm starting to believe Hall may be a liability down the road.

I guess it is too late to do anything about it now...

[shally]

BWParker brings up a great point. The kick was a 50/50 shot...and even the great Adam Vintieri has a career % of under 50 percent on long kicks.

I've always given Hall the benefit of the doubt, because I've watched him personally stop (tackle) a returner who was headed for an easy 6 points after out-running the rest of the coverage team. In my eyes...that is 18 points he helped defend.

But I question if the guy is 100% healthy. Sort of reminds me of Brunell in his first season with the Skins when he wasn't fully healthy.

I just said in another thread that we will play a LOT of close games, so I'm starting to believe Hall may be a liability down the road.

I guess it is too late to do anything about it now...

sign novak to the practice squad and see what he looks like, or at least work him out.. as you and i have both said, we are going to play a lot of close games this year.. how many do we go down with hall kicking? that is the question.. the whole season ? one more? 2 more?
maybe he wins the dallas game and we all shut up. but another game that he has on his foot that slips away and you will really see things light up

[Keino]

This thread should be titled Get Danny Smith out of DC. Don't forget frost had multiple junk punts. One that set the vikings up for a field goal. Not too mention the coverage was horrible leaving our holy defense with more trouble then they needed.

Danny Smith didn't bring competition for either hall and frost. Hall and Frost look just as bad as they did in pre-season. There should be zero suprise.

So wait, you want Danny Smith canned because his GM and Team President/Head Coach didn't bring in another Kicker? Makes sense.

Danny Smith deserves criticism but not for decisions by the Head Coach and GM. Gibbs deserves far more criticism on this front than anyone else.

[Swirvi]

Hall may be the worst Kicker in the NFL. Can't kick off and can't kick field goals. What exactly is his skill? He is the weakest link of this team and with our schedule and division we will only be as good as our weakest link. That prospect sucks!!

I think that that is a pretty unfair assessment. No way is he our weakest link. For one, since last season, how many of you hold your breath every single time any quarterback throws a deep ball on us? I don't know if teams are starting to figure out Gregg's aggressive defense or if our safeties just always overpursue, but it seems like that happens to be a coinflip also whether it be a catch or penalty vs. an incompletion. And that doesn't even take into account the dropped balls when we are beat. And I am not ONLY talking about last night.

For another, how many of you hold your breath everytime we kick off and the returner takes his first step? For a while it has seemed to be a coinflip with whether or not the opposing team makes it past the 35.

Frost did well last night in my opinion. However, I know that we ALL hold our breath everytime he trots onto the field.

How horrible was our red zone offense last night??? On that note, how horrible has it been all of last year? Hell, I say we keep Hall just because he is amazing from around 30 yards and closer and we always seem to stall inside the 10 yard line.

I don't like Hall very much right now neither, but I would never say he is our weakest link and I doubt very much he is the worst kicker in the league. By the way, did anyone else notice whenever Minnesotta kicked off to us, the ball would land right around the 10 yard line? Frost didn't do much worse in the preseason and he seems to have gotten better (in the first game at least).

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

joe gibbs just said he has alot of confidence in john hall.........ugh. :mad:

[MoeRedskins]

It is absolutely evident that John Hall isn't kicking the way he should be, but can anybody tell me an option better than hall? Besides, if your offense gets in the redzone as often as we did, your kicker shouldn't be the one getting the points.

[shally]

joe gibbs just said he has alot of confidence in john hall.........ugh. :mad:

oh well.. message comes down from on high.. that ends the discussion for now...

[Syllable]

Keep hall for now, he did hit his other ones, but I dont expect gibbs to cover for him much longer if he misses more FGs.

[HAWGZHEAD]

joe gibbs just said he has alot of confidence in john hall.........ugh. :mad::cry: That kick deserves a new sig...

[darkwing99]

joe gibbs just said he has alot of confidence in john hall.........ugh. :mad:


I still think we need to get a GM, because a coach gets to emotionally tied up to his players and can cloud his Judgement. However, I will discuss this more in another thread.

[Syllable]

I still think we need to get a GM, because a coach gets to emotionally tied up to his players and can cloud his Judgement. However, I will discuss this more in another thread.
He has the tendancy to stick to players that he knows works, He would rather have "Redskin players" then some shmucks who run their mouth. I dont even know why this thread is so huge. He missed FG's before..

[darkwing99]

Ok, this Redskin players stuff really bugs me........it should be more like football players of high character, which a good GM can find as well, so this point is pretty weak.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

BWParker brings up a great point. The kick was a 50/50 shot...and even the great Adam Vintieri has a career % of under 50 percent on long kicks.
Actually Vinatieri is 71/100 from 40-49 and 8/17 from 50+. Kicking in New England. That's 67%. And he is absolutely money when it counts.

[csquared]

Honestly this thread should also include Carlos Rogers. Had he not been burnt all night long Hall wouldnt have been in the position he was. Rogers also got lucky on the ball Williamson missed. Was a sure td had he not dropped a perfectly thrown ball that hit the bread basket. How about Arch? He looked like a deer in the headlights. As much as i want to bash Hall and Frost the blame has to go all the way around. Frost did have a decent game for him. Yes a normal NFL punter shanks what 4-5 kicks a year. Frost only shanked 1 so far. Let me also ask an honest question. Lets go back to that Rogers draft. Why on earth did we pass on Sean Merriman?? Oh well give Hall and Frost a chance. Im not a supporter by any means but there was alot of other reasons that game was lost.

[Syllable]

This is his second True Start btw, and he was put into the fire with little safety help in the middle or linebackers in zone, because of the running game. I dont agree with the Rogers statement.

[HAWGZHEAD]

Honestly this thread should also include Carlos Rogers. Had he not been burnt all night long Hall wouldnt have been in the position he was. Rogers also got lucky on the ball Williamson missed. Was a sure td had he not dropped a perfectly thrown ball that hit the bread basket. How about Arch? He looked like a deer in the headlights. As much as i want to bash Hall and Frost the blame has to go all the way around. Frost did have a decent game for him. Yes a normal NFL punter shanks what 4-5 kicks a year. Frost only shanked 1 so far. Let me also ask an honest question. Lets go back to that Rogers draft. Why on earth did we pass on Sean Merriman?? Oh well give Hall and Frost a chance. Im not a supporter by any means but there was alot of other reasons that game was lost.I think the blame does go all around but in that singular moment when we could have tied the game Hall failed miserably and it isn't like he is a good kicker in the first place.

[ryflan47]

Lol who changed "Out" in the title of the thread to "oot".

[darkwing99]

Honestly this thread should also include Carlos Rogers. Had he not been burnt all night long Hall wouldnt have been in the position he was. Rogers also got lucky on the ball Williamson missed. Was a sure td had he not dropped a perfectly thrown ball that hit the bread basket. How about Arch? He looked like a deer in the headlights. As much as i want to bash Hall and Frost the blame has to go all the way around. Frost did have a decent game for him. Yes a normal NFL punter shanks what 4-5 kicks a year. Frost only shanked 1 so far. Let me also ask an honest question. Lets go back to that Rogers draft. Why on earth did we pass on Sean Merriman?? Oh well give Hall and Frost a chance. Im not a supporter by any means but there was alot of other reasons that game was lost.


Well the problem was we needed a CB, after we lost Smoot, didn't really have a choice and the Cardinal screwed us bad by taking Antrell Rolle, and the next rated CB was Rogers, who I felt looked slow on game tapes I had seen when he played in college, ( but hey everyone says he has 4.3 speed so i couldn't really argue too much) and Merriman probably only does this good in a 3-4 system and not a 4-3, so there you go.

[HAWGZHEAD]

Lol who changed "Out" in the title of the thread to "oot".Did we just go Canadian? lol

[csquared]

This is his second True Start btw, and he was put into the fire with little safety help in the middle or linebackers in zone, because of the running game. I dont agree with the Rogers statement.
You may not agree but your bashing Hall for not doing what he is supposed to do. So why should it be different for Rogers? Rogers is supposed to atleast partly shut down an opposing WR. Its also not like he was up against Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison. It was Brad Johnson and Troy Williamson. Not a top combo that im aware of.

[smoak]

Lol who changed "Out" in the title of the thread to "oot".

We should change the title yo "Lets get Rid of Every Single Player who Makes a Mistake or Doesn't Do Absolutely Everything Perfectly".

**sigh**

Short work week and a loss in week 2 could be DISASTEROUS!!! But I still don't get the invetiable "cut everyone" threads when we lose a game. Minny is much better that everyone thought, but we still needed to win that game.

[ryflan47]

We should change the title yo "Lets get Rid of Every Single Player who Makes a Mistake or Doesn't Do Absolutely Everything Perfectly".

**sigh**

Short work week and a loss in week 2 could be DISASTEROUS!!! But I still don't get the invetiable "cut everyone" threads when we lose a game. Minny is much better that everyone thought, but we still needed to win that game.

The only player that I want to get rid of is Hall, and this isn't something that just popped up. I've been a supporter of getting a new kicker for all of the offseason, and this is just another reason to.

[Ibleedburgundy]

Lol who changed "Out" in the title of the thread to "oot".

Dern Kernadians.

Redskins need to start thinking about life after Hall. He's done.

[Skins57]

Can't speak for anyone else but i knew he was gonna miss that last kick, I have wanted to see him gone for years, never been a big fan, now he is just awful, yea he made 3 FGs but I could have made them. we need a kicker where atleast I know we have a chance, I hate to say but there was no doubt when he went to kick that ball, I wanted Joe to go for it on 4th down as I knew we had a better chance of a hail mary than him making that kick. It was an awful feeling. He can not kickoff, he can't make 50 yarders and now he can't make 40 yarders...darn it Joe I can't understand why you still have him here

[santanadasavior]

Can't speak for anyone else but i knew he was gonna miss that last kick, I have wanted to see him gone for years, never been a big fan, now he is just awful, yea he made 3 FGs but I could have made them. we need a kicker where atleast I know we have a chance, I hate to say but there was no doubt when he went to kick that ball, I wanted Joe to go for it on 4th down as I knew we had a better chance of a hail mary than him making that kick. It was an awful feeling. He can not kickoff, he can't make 50 yarders and now he can't make 40 yarders...darn it Joe I can't understand why you still have him here

I knew it too. I was so upset because I knew we would have had a chance to tie the game but he would probably miss the kick. It was truly depressing. Say what you want about kickers, but they win and lose games. They have the most pressure on them. They are involved in about 5-6 plays per game and one mistake on any of those could be the difference between a win and a loss. I just think that he needs a confidence shot and Gibbs putting him back in in another pressure situation could be that.

[Death_Venom]

Now that my temperature has dropped below that of a supernova over Monday Nites loss I am bit more refreshed yet still very agitated over John Hall missing that field goal..............Overall that game was full of frustrations offensively & defensively...........My only hope is that our offense comes alive against Dallas like it did last year...........

The unfortunate truth is we all were looking for a scapegoat and John Hall was as good as any..............It may be unfair BUT the FOOTBALL GODS DEMAND a SACRIFICE..................:devil2:


..........................John Hall must DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:sfight:

[smoak]

The only player that I want to get rid of is Hall, and this isn't something that just popped up. I've been a supporter of getting a new kicker for all of the offseason, and this is just another reason to.

I'm not directing my comment to anyone specifically. I just get tired of the wretched conga line of hate that lines up after a loss.

[Syllable]

You may not agree but your bashing Hall for not doing what he is supposed to do. So why should it be different for Rogers? Rogers is supposed to atleast partly shut down an opposing WR. Its also not like he was up against Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison. It was Brad Johnson and Troy Williamson. Not a top combo that im aware of.
Hall has been on the tightrope for a while, Rogers is being thrown into the fire with little to no exp. Big DIFF IMO

[DoGood]

I'm going to give him a little longer leash then you considering he is coming off an injury. He gets one or two more weeks. But the bottom line is, he needs to make those kicks.

[Skins57]

I'm not directing my comment to anyone specifically. I just get tired of the wretched conga line of hate that lines up after a loss.

Smoak
I understand that, and in no way am I saying John Hall is to blame for this loss, I am just saying that for years I have had a feeling hat when we needed a big kick he has not produced, he does not kick off, any kicker who does not kick off bothers me, it is not called punt off.I just wish (and I know I am dreaming) that would have went after Vinatieri or Vanderjagt this offseason.
The defense played a huge part in this loss, never have I seen a Williams led defensive team looks so awful on 3rd down. Brad Johnson played a great game and took what we gave him, but our defense looked bad at times.
Many reasons for this loss but I just wanted to say I have been wanting HAll gone for a long time no matter if we win or lose

[smoak]

I'm going to give him a little longer leash then you considering he is coming off an injury. He gets one or two more weeks. But the bottom line is, he needs to make those kicks.

Yeah and a lot of players needed to do things that they didn't... Should we get them all oot of here??? Lets just blowup the roster and start over. While we're at it we can can Gib bs and hire Fassel. Get rid of all the other coaches... And Snyder can sell the team to Bill Bidwill... or even better, maybe Tom Cruise can buy and coach the team.

[DoGood]

Yeah and a lot of players needed to do things that they didn't... Should we get them all oot of here??? Lets just blowup the roster and start over. While we're at it we can can Gib bs and hire Fassel. Get rid of all the other coaches... And Snyder can sell the team to Bill Bidwill... or even better, maybe Tom Cruise can buy and coach the team.

The only reason I am coming down a little harder on Hall is that he hasn't contributed in a while. If I had it my way, I would prefer we keep him and he becomes the accurate kicker that we signed.

[shally]

Yeah and a lot of players needed to do things that they didn't... Should we get them all oot of here??? Lets just blowup the roster and start over. While we're at it we can can Gib bs and hire Fassel. Get rid of all the other coaches... And Snyder can sell the team to Bill Bidwill... or even better, maybe Tom Cruise can buy and coach the team.

i think those of us who are anti hall (i can only speak for myself) believe that he is damaged goods.. he so reminds me of conway inthe way that once he started getting hurt he was never the same kicker.
he is not a bad man but he is being paid to make those kicks. he doesn't even have to kick off now. he gets paid at least 1 million dollars per season and i have no sympathy at that level of pay. i would never boo or gripe about a college kicker, but as a pro that is different.
i also wanted the skins to go after a more reliable kicker this off season. they chose not to.. further, gibbs backed hall today.. that ends it for me now. we do what gibbs wants... end of story
i just hope more games do not slide off the side of his foot thisseason because we are going to play more close games this season
:Peace:

[esmith1790]

Most teams dont invest money into the kicking position but after struggling year after year the boys finally ponied up. I guess after MV missed those easy FGs in preseason everyone was all over him and the boys and now it seems we are in the same boat.

I am curious to see if the big time money thrown at other players played a part in not signing a big time kicker.

Hey we passed on Merriman also, but we got D Ware. so it is a nice consolation prize.

[redwolf1218]

my question that i have been thinking about for a while now, which i wanted to ask everyone here, is this: what if we are at the 30 yard line and facing a 4th and 2, or 4th and 3, which would be about a 47 yard field goal, would you kick it or go for it? it's too close to punt...i'd say go for it, but most teams would kick the field goal right? that's 3 points, but remember, if he misses it, the other teams gets the ball at the spot of the hold.

[redskin_rich]

Most teams dont invest money into the kicking position but after struggling year after year the boys finally ponied up. I guess after MV missed those easy FGs in preseason everyone was all over him and the boys and now it seems we are in the same boat.

I am curious to see if the big time money thrown at other players played a part in not signing a big time kicker.
Hall is getting paid good money. We signed him a few years ago to shore up what had been a kicker's carousel, much like you all have had. Unfortunately, Hall got injured and struggled with his health for the last two years. He is supposedly healthy now but his accuracy just isn't where it needs to be yet.

[shally]

my question that i have been thinking about for a while now, which i wanted to ask everyone here, is this: what if we are at the 30 yard line and facing a 4th and 2, or 4th and 3, which would be about a 47 yard field goal, would you kick it or go for it? it's too close to punt...i'd say go for it, but most teams would kick the field goal right? that's 3 points, but remember, if he misses it, the other teams gets the ball at the spot of the hold.

depends on your kcker
depends onthe time left
depends on the weather
depends on how well the defense is playing

overall you should take the 3 points

[smoak]

Smoak
I understand that, and in no way am I saying John Hall is to blame for this loss, I am just saying that for years I have had a feeling hat when we needed a big kick he has not produced, he does not kick off, any kicker who does not kick off bothers me, it is not called punt off.I just wish (and I know I am dreaming) that would have went after Vinatieri or Vanderjagt this offseason.
The defense played a huge part in this loss, never have I seen a Williams led defensive team looks so awful on 3rd down. Brad Johnson played a great game and took what we gave him, but our defense looked bad at times.
Many reasons for this loss but I just wanted to say I have been wanting HAll gone for a long time no matter if we win or lose

That is fair so don't take my comments as directed to you. I honestly haven't read but a couple posts b/c everything was so venemous.

We all have players where we have varying degrees of comfort that they'll get the job done. Frankly, I'd like to start a thread and ask if Brandon Lloyd even played yesterday, but I don't b/c I feel like now we need to be positive and focused more than ever. If he can tear himself away from the recording studio long enough, I'd sure appreciate it if he'd come to the dallass game. (Disclaimer: As emotional as I am during a game, it is impossible for me to judge players without looking at the game tape afterwards -- which I don't have . I just now I didn't see the ball thrown his way a lot and I didn't see him getting open either.)

GW is the man. I love the guy, but we overrate him so much because of 2004and truthfully, his defense last year (and Monday) was nowhere near as good as '04. Go back and watch the regular season Tampa game and see how the offense kept putting up points and how GW kept getting burned blitz after blitz for big plays (and TDs). It was sickening. I have 100% faith in him b/c no coordinator or player is perfect, but Skins fans talk like they expect a shutout every game. This is the NFL folks, and the coaches on the other sidelione get paid as well.

As of this post (barring any responses made directly to me), I am 100% focused on dallass. I gave myself 24 hours to be depressed (and I was let me tell you), but now it is time to turn the page.

Oh and Minnesota is a playoff team if they stay healthy. That is not an excuse to lose at home, but still...

[shally]

Hall is getting paid good money. We signed him a few years ago to shore up what had been a kicker's carousel, much like you all have had. Unfortunately, Hall got injured and struggled with his health for the last two years. He is supposedly healthy now but his accuracy just isn't where it needs to be yet.

he is not being paid good money.. he is being paid GREAT money.. how many plays is he actually in over a season..? not counting PATS, less than 100.. that works out to some enormous amount per play.
if you are pulling that coin down you have to expect to take the heat when you miss.

[shally]

That is fair so don't take my comments as directed to you. I honestly haven't read but a couple posts b/c everything was so venemous.

We all have players where we have varying degrees of comfort that they'll get the job done. Frankly, I'd like to start a thread and ask if Brandon Lloyd even played yesterday, but I don't b/c I feel like now we need to be positive and focused more than ever. If he can tear himself away from the recording studio long enough, I'd sure appreciate it if he'd come to the dallass game. (Disclaimer: As emotional as I am during a game, it is impossible for me to judge players without looking at the game tape afterwards -- which I don't have . I just now I didn't see the ball thrown his way a lot and I didn't see him getting open either.)

GW is the man. I love the guy, but we overrate him so much because of 2004and truthfully, his defense last year (and Monday) was nowhere near as good as '04. Go back and watch the regular season Tampa game and see how the offense kept putting up points and how GW kept getting burned blitz after blitz for big plays (and TDs). It was sickening. I have 100% faith in him b/c no coordinator or player is perfect, but Skins fans talk like they expect a shutout every game. This is the NFL folks, and the coaches on the other sidelione get paid as well.

As of this post (barring any responses made directly to me), I am 100% focused on dallass. I gave myself 24 hours to be depressed (and I was let me tell you), but now it is time to turn the page.

Oh and Minnesota is a playoff team if they stay healthy. That is not an excuse to lose at home, but still...

with those lines and brad running the offense they should be in every game.. and now THEY have a money kicker
:lol1:

[redwolf1218]

depends on your kcker
depends onthe time left
depends on the weather
depends on how well the defense is playing

overall you should take the 3 points
i should have clarified...

it is us, the Redskins, so it's our kicker, John Hall.

there's plenty of time left (at least not like there's 12 seconds with no timeouts, where there's no option but to try it).

you pay millions for a kicker who can kick outdoors in bad weather, which is what Hall used to be and probably why we got him in the first place.

i am talking about a regular game situation, at the 30, 4th and 2 or 3. you say "take the 3", but we cannot count on that anymore. it's not a sure 3, so i'd say go for it and if you dont get it, you turn it over to the defense, at the spot of the hold.

[smoak]

I say you call a fake kick and have the kicker roll out and pooch punt it.... Oh wait, you said "Redskins" and not "Jets".

Generally speaking I'd kick it, but there are way too many variables to give one answer.

[redskin_rich]

i should have clarified...

it is us, the Redskins, so it's our kicker, John Hall.

there's plenty of time left (at least not like there's 12 seconds with no timeouts, where there's no option but to try it).

you pay millions for a kicker who can kick outdoors in bad weather, which is what Hall used to be and probably why we got him in the first place.

i am talking about a regular game situation, at the 30, 4th and 2 or 3. you say "take the 3", but we cannot count on that anymore. it's not a sure 3, so i'd say go for it and if you dont get it, you turn it over to the defense, at the spot of the hold.
I say you still go for the 3, Hall is going to have to start making the 40 yarders or get fired trying. If the coach has no confidence in him, he shouldn't be here in the first place.

[shally]

i should have clarified...

it is us, the Redskins, so it's our kicker, John Hall.

there's plenty of time left (at least not like there's 12 seconds with no timeouts, where there's no option but to try it).

you pay millions for a kicker who can kick outdoors in bad weather, which is what Hall used to be and probably why we got him in the first place.

i am talking about a regular game situation, at the 30, 4th and 2 or 3. you say "take the 3", but we cannot count on that anymore. it's not a sure 3, so i'd say go for it and if you dont get it, you turn it over to the defense, at the spot of the hold.

NO... as long as hall is on the team he is going out there to make that kick. you cannot protect him from himself.. he keeps getting sent out there and either he makes the kicks or we get another kicker..
we show him confidence until the day we cut him

[shally]

I say you still go for the 3, Hall is going to have to start making the 40 yarders or get fired trying. If the coach has no confidence in him, he shouldn't be here in the first place.

beat me by a second..
:lol1:

he gets treated like a roman gladiator.. he goes out and wins or comes home on his sword.. but we do not keep him on the sideline

[redwolf1218]

well if he misses another one, then what? it will be interesting.

[shally]

well if he misses another one, then what? it will be interesting.

he will miss other kicks this season.. they all do.. but it depends on the kick..
if it is 40-45 at the end of a game to win or tie, he gets no slack if he misses
50+ sure, that is hit or miss...
anything less than 40, expect to hear boos raining down if he misses

[Skins57]

well if he misses another one, then what? it will be interesting.

I will hold the sword:Padawan:

[bwparker]

Hall is getting paid good money. We signed him a few years ago to shore up what had been a kicker's carousel, much like you all have had. Unfortunately, Hall got injured and struggled with his health for the last two years. He is supposedly healthy now but his accuracy just isn't where it needs to be yet.
45+ is a gamble. It doesn't matter who your kicker is. Thats what I was trying to point out when I posted stats on page 9 of this thread. IMO, If you have a very good kicking situation you say:

<30 yards - Expect to make it(99%)
30-40 yards - Should make it(75%)
40-45 yards - Slightly less (70%)
45-50 yards - Could make it (60%)
50+ and its a crap shoot.(50%)

I broke the 40-50 range up because I personally think thats where things get icky. A 48 yarder is a much lower percentage kick than a 42. And I think this is what you think with a very solid kicking situation.

btw-
Hall has NEVER missed a kick from inside the 30 for us. He has missed two kicks from inside the 40...and they were both in his FIRST year here. Last year he was 5 of 6 from the 40-49 yard range. That was his best year from that range, EVER.

[shally]

45+ is a gamble. It doesn't matter who your kicker is. Thats what I was trying to point out when I posted stats on page 9 of this thread. IMO, If you have a very good kicking situation you say:

<30 yards - Expect to make it(99%)
30-40 yards - Should make it(75%)
40-45 yards - Slightly less (70%)
45-50 yards - Could make it (60%)
50+ and its a crap shoot.(50%)

I broke the 40-50 range up because I personally think thats where things get icky. A 48 yarder is a much lower percentage kick than a 42. And I think this is what you think with a very solid kicking situation.

btw-
Hall has NEVER missed a kick from inside the 30 for us. He has missed two kicks from inside the 40...and they were both in his FIRST year here. Last year he was 5 of 6 from the 40-49 yard range. That was his best year from that range, EVER.

so let's cut to the chase... given his misses in preseason and his miss yesterday, are you still comfortable with him as the skins' kicker ?

[bwparker]

so let's cut to the chase... given his misses in preseason and his miss yesterday, are you still comfortable with him as the skins' kicker ?
Actually, yes. Am I happy? Not entirely and I'd love to see him improve. I have one complaint about him - he is overpaid for his skill level. I don't believe that is his fault, and he's not the only player who's ever been overpaid by the Skins.

There was a time when I winced every time the kicking team took the field. I did it last year when Novak was in. But I have absolute faith in Hall from average distances. I cross my fingers and half cover my eyes on long kicks, especially if the game is on the line...but I'd do that regardless of who was our kicker.

Two points I'd like to make. One if Hall made that field goal, I believe our chances of winning that game are still below 50%. Because if the Vikings won that coin toss, I don't have faith that our defense would have stopped them. They were playing terrible those last few possessions. If we had won the coin toss, I don't have faither that our offense would have scored. Up until 54 seconds were left in the game and the Vikings went into uber prevent defense, we'd been looking like the 2004 offense. It was horrendous.

Second, if we cut Hall and got a better replacement, I'd have no problem with that either. I don't think our kicking game is as good as it could be, or as good as it should be for that matter. But cutting Hall without a proven replacement who is BETTER is ridiculous. He's a solid, if not exemplary, kicker and we know where we stand with him. At least I feel like I do.

[shally]

Actually, yes. Am I happy? Not entirely and I'd love to see him improve. I have one complaint about him - he is overpaid for his skill level. I don't believe that is his fault, and he's not the only player who's ever been overpaid by the Skins.

There was a time when I winced every time the kicking team took the field. I did it last year when Novak was in. But I have absolute faith in Hall from average distances. I cross my fingers and half cover my eyes on long kicks, especially if the game is on the line...but I'd do that regardless of who was our kicker.

Two points I'd like to make. One if Hall made that field goal, I believe our chances of winning that game are still below 50%. Because if the Vikings won that coin toss, I don't have faith that our defense would have stopped them. They were playing terrible those last few possessions. If we had won the coin toss, I don't have faither that our offense would have scored. Up until 54 seconds were left in the game and the Vikings went into uber prevent defense, we'd been looking like the 2004 offense. It was horrendous.

Second, if we cut Hall and got a better replacement, I'd have no problem with that either. I don't think our kicking game is as good as it could be, or as good as it should be for that matter. But cutting Hall without a proven replacement who is BETTER is ridiculous. He's a solid, if not exemplary, kicker and we know where we stand with him. At least I feel like I do.

good points... but i disagree totally on one.. if we tie it and go into overtime we have all the momentum and the entire team is energized and crazy.. sure, one drive , even one play and it is over, but i believe we win it if we tie it... too bad we won't ever get to know...

[SpicyMcHaggis]

45+ is a gamble. It doesn't matter who your kicker is. Thats what I was trying to point out when I posted stats on page 9 of this thread. IMO, If you have a very good kicking situation you say:

<30 yards - Expect to make it(99%)
30-40 yards - Should make it(75%)
40-45 yards - Slightly less (70%)
45-50 yards - Could make it (60%)
50+ and its a crap shoot.(50%)

I broke the 40-50 range up because I personally think thats where things get icky. A 48 yarder is a much lower percentage kick than a 42. And I think this is what you think with a very solid kicking situation.

btw-
Hall has NEVER missed a kick from inside the 30 for us. He has missed two kicks from inside the 40...and they were both in his FIRST year here. Last year he was 5 of 6 from the 40-49 yard range. That was his best year from that range, EVER.
I have no way of breaking down the stats every five yards, but here are Hall's stats compared to the 2 kickers who I would have wanted to get in FA and who infact changed teams.
Hall:
40-49: 46/78. That's 59 percent.
50+: 13/28. That's 46 percent.
14 games missed in the last 2 years.

Longwell:
40-49: 62/86. That's 72 percent.
50+: 13/23. That's 57 percent.
0 games missed in his career.

Vinatieri:
40-49: 71/100. That's 71 percent.
50+: 8/17. That's 47 percent.
0 games missed in his career.
2 last-minute game winning kicks in the Super Bowl.

And keep in mind that Vinatieri and Longwell kicked in New England and in Green Bay. Not the best of conditions generally.

It just seems to me that since we went out and spent a boatload of money for anybody and everybody, we could have addressed the kicking situation in a very positive way if we had wanted to. Just that. But now our only choice is to stick with Hall and pray we need him as little as possible.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Two points I'd like to make. One if Hall made that field goal, I believe our chances of winning that game are still below 50%. Because if the Vikings won that coin toss, I don't have faith that our defense would have stopped them. They were playing terrible those last few possessions. If we had won the coin toss, I don't have faither that our offense would have scored. Up until 54 seconds were left in the game and the Vikings went into uber prevent defense, we'd been looking like the 2004 offense. It was horrendous.
But that has absolutely nothing to do with Hall, and is complete speculation.

Second, if we cut Hall and got a better replacement, I'd have no problem with that either. I don't think our kicking game is as good as it could be, or as good as it should be for that matter. But cutting Hall without a proven replacement who is BETTER is ridiculous. He's a solid, if not exemplary, kicker and we know where we stand with him. At least I feel like I do.
I completely agree with you (although Hall is FAR from exemplary IMO). That's why in all my posts I never said we should cut Hall now. The problem should have been solved much much earlier.

[smoak]

Hall may not be great, but I really don't see a better option out there folks and I think it is healthier to focus on winning some football games.

To paraphrase a famous quote, "Mark Moseley and Chip Lohmiller are not comiong through that door, folks."

[chrisbcbu]

Next draft i would not be opposed to drafting a kicker in the later rounds, since we normally release those guys anyways! May as well try to net a good kicker.

[bwparker]

I have no way of breaking down the stats every five yards, but here are Hall's stats compared to the 2 kickers who I would have wanted to get in FA and who infact changed teams.
Hall:
40-49: 46/78. That's 59 percent.
50+: 13/28. That's 46 percent.
14 games missed in the last 2 years.

Longwell:
40-49: 62/86. That's 72 percent.
50+: 13/23. That's 57 percent.
0 games missed in his career.

Vinatieri:
40-49: 71/100. That's 71 percent.
50+: 8/17. That's 47 percent.
0 games missed in his career.
2 last-minute game winning kicks in the Super Bowl.

And keep in mind that Vinatieri and Longwell kicked in New England and in Green Bay. Not the best of conditions generally.

It just seems to me that since we went out and spent a boatload of money for anybody and everybody, we could have addressed the kicking situation in a very positive way if we had wanted to. Just that. But now our only choice is to stick with Hall and pray we need him as little as possible.
Those two guys are better kickers than Hall. You are not going to hear me argue that. But its not like Hall was once in their league and has since fallen from the ranks of greatness, he has always been just an above average kicker.

Like I said, I have no problem with upgrading the position. I just don't like the "he was brought here to be great" arguement because other than his paycheck there has never been an indicator that he was great. I'm not saying you made that arguement, btw...

[bwparker]

good points... but i disagree totally on one.. if we tie it and go into overtime we have all the momentum and the entire team is energized and crazy.. sure, one drive , even one play and it is over, but i believe we win it if we tie it... too bad we won't ever get to know...
Like Spicy said, its complete speculation. I didn't feel like we had ANY momentum towards the end of the game. I felt like we got our collective butts handed to us all 4th quarter. You are right though...we will never know.

[BIGSEF3]

so let's cut to the chase... given his misses in preseason and his miss yesterday, are you still comfortable with him as the skins' kicker ?

He should have been cut last year. guys a scrub, plain and simple.

[smoak]

He should have been cut last year. guys a scrub, plain and simple.

Why don't you hit Hall with the bus you wanted to drive over Brunell? :rolleyes:

Longwell missed an extra point (although I didn't see the play to know who was at fault. Stuff happens. We didn't lose b/c of Hall. The offense, defense, and special teams all failed to make plays.

[bwparker]

He should have been cut last year. guys a scrub, plain and simple.
This is exactly the type of arguement I was trying to combat by posting numbers and facts. Do you have anything to back this up? Any numbers? Or is it just pure emotion? What makes him a scrub? Is it his injury? I understand cutting him because you believe he's injury prone, but that doesn't make him a scrub. Is it performance? Because as the numbers show, he performance hasn't changed much since we picked him (when he's been healthy enough to play). In fact in some regards (close to medium range kicks) he's actually IMPROVED over the past couple years.

[smoak]

This is exactly the type of arguement I was trying to combat by posting numbers and facts. Do you have anything to back this up? Any numbers? Or is it just pure emotion? What makes him a scrub? Is it his injury? I understand cutting him because you believe he's injury prone, but that doesn't make him a scrub. Is it performance? Because as the numbers show, he performance hasn't changed much since we picked him (when he's been healthy enough to play). In fact in some regards (close to medium range kicks) he's actually IMPROVED over the past couple years.
'
Anyone who says "cut him" simply doesn't know football or is under the illusion that Novak is the savior... Either way the opinion is misinformed until Hall proves he can't handle the duties.

[redskin_rich]

Longwell missed an extra point (although I didn't see the play to know who was at fault. Stuff happens. We didn't lose b/c of Hall. The offense, defense, and special teams all failed to make plays.
Longwell never had the chance to kick the first XP, the holder bobbled the snap.

[shally]

Why don't you hit Hall with the bus you wanted to drive over Brunell? :rolleyes:

Longwell missed an extra point (although I didn't see the play to know who was at fault. Stuff happens. We didn't lose b/c of Hall. The offense, defense, and special teams all failed to make plays.

longwell missed because the holder dropped the snap and then tried to run it in..
his other miss was from 55 yards-- into the wind. a very poor coaching decision that should have bit them but didn't because their defense stepped up

[SpicyMcHaggis]

'
Anyone who says "cut him" simply doesn't know football or is under the illusion that Novak is the savior... Either way the opinion is misinformed until Hall proves he can't handle the duties.
That's just it. For some people here (including me), he has already proved he is a sub-par kicker for a team that is trying to win a Super Bowl. And unfortunately, he got a chance to prove it right away. And no, I'm not in favor of cutting him now. What I can't understand is why the situation was not addressed during the offseason. Just out of curiosity..how much are Vinatieri and Longwell making?

[smoak]

Longwell never had the chance to kick the first XP, the holder bobbled the snap.

Oh yeah... I forgot. I thought maybe it was blocked, but now I do recall someone running with it. I wasn't paying attention b/c I was so furious the Vikings bent us over so easily on that drive.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Those two guys are better kickers than Hall. You are not going to hear me argue that. But its not like Hall was once in their league and has since fallen from the ranks of greatness, he has always been just an above average kicker.

Like I said, I have no problem with upgrading the position. I just don't like the "he was brought here to be great" arguement because other than his paycheck there has never been an indicator that he was great. I'm not saying you made that arguement, btw...
I guess we agree then..it's just that I find it a shame to risk losing games (or not winning them or not going to overtime or whatever) because of the kicker, when there were 2 much much better alternatives that cost much less than other players that we invested in and that in the end could wind up not making that much of a difference.

[Redskin4Life]

Spicy, how does Mike Nugent look statswise? Looks like he could be available soon....

The Mike Nugent watch is officially on (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/451963p-380400c.html)

[joethefan]

'
Anyone who says "cut him" simply doesn't know football or is under the illusion that Novak is the savior... Either way the opinion is misinformed until Hall proves he can't handle the duties.

I agree. I didn't have a good feeling about him making that kick. I think we could have went after Vanderjact or Adam....IMO.

[Syllable]

This is exactly the type of arguement I was trying to combat by posting numbers and facts. Do you have anything to back this up? Any numbers? Or is it just pure emotion? What makes him a scrub? Is it his injury? I understand cutting him because you believe he's injury prone, but that doesn't make him a scrub. Is it performance? Because as the numbers show, he performance hasn't changed much since we picked him (when he's been healthy enough to play). In fact in some regards (close to medium range kicks) he's actually IMPROVED over the past couple years.
I got the best thing to back this up, No numbers or facts. I get scarred when I see John Hall on the field during a clutch play.

[BIGSEF3]

My dislike for John Hall can be summed up in one word: UNRELIABLE.

Whether due to injury or poor performance, he has just never been here when we need him. I cant recall a time when Hall took a snap and I didn't hold my breath. If he were atleast consistenly healthy, that would be something. If he were adam vinateri, I would be fine with having him somewhat unhealthy. But he's not consistently healthy or good. Hall missed that field goal by a mile. If it were atleast close, I wouldnt be saying a word. Yes, our offense and defense left alot of room for improvement.

But if you had to pick one player on our team that I felt was a weak link, where I felt there was a FA out there who we could pick up and improve our game, it who would that player be, and who would the FA be? Hall for Novak. I wouldnt trade Hall for ANYONE, but Novak is healthy, accurate, reliable, and knows how to tackle. He might not have the "potential" that Hall has, but I view him as an upgrade over Hall.

[bwparker]

My dislike for John Hall can be summed up in one word: UNRELIABLE.

Whether due to injury or poor performance, he has just never been here when we need him. I cant recall a time when Hall took a snap and I didn't hold my breath. If he were atleast consistenly healthy, that would be something. If he were adam vinateri, I would be fine with having him somewhat unhealthy. But he's not consistently healthy or good. Hall missed that field goal by a mile. If it were atleast close, I wouldnt be saying a word. Yes, our offense and defense left alot of room for improvement.

But if you had to pick one player on our team that I felt was a weak link, where I felt there was a FA out there who we could pick up and improve our game, it who would that player be, and who would the FA be? Hall for Novak. I wouldnt trade Hall for ANYONE, but Novak is healthy, accurate, reliable, and knows how to tackle. He might not have the "potential" that Hall has, but I view him as an upgrade over Hall.
Holy Cow! You didn't really understand what I was asking for did you? I'm not even necessarily disagreeing with you. But you have not backed up your position with anything. You simply state that Hall is unreliable. That doesn't make it so. Reliability is a pattern of results. I'll spot you one result: last night. But one night does not make a pattern.

(This paragraph pertains to Syllable, as well) Just because you hold your breath when he kicks doesn't mean he is a bad kicker. It means YOU don't have faith in him, which would only be significant if your faith had a deciding factor in the outcome of the game. But, unfortunately for your arguement, your belief has absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of plays.

Again, I haven't even disagreed with you yet, but thats mostly because you haven't made an actual arguement yet. You have said, in a nutshell, "John Hall is a bad kicker because I believe John Hall is a bad kicker". Use some games, some numbers, something to back up your opinion, or stop wasting everyone's time.

[smoak]

Holy Cow! You didn't really understand what I was asking for did you? I'm not even necessarily disagreeing with you. But you have not backed up your position with anything. You simply state that Hall is unreliable. That doesn't make it so. Reliability is a pattern of results. I'll spot you one result: last night. But one night does not make a pattern.

(This paragraph pertains to Syllable, as well) Just because you hold your breath when he kicks doesn't mean he is a bad kicker. It means YOU don't have faith in him, which would only be significant if your faith had a deciding factor in the outcome of the game. But, unfortunately for your arguement, your belief has absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of plays.

Again, I haven't even disagreed with you yet, but thats mostly because you haven't made an actual arguement yet. You have said, in a nutshell, "John Hall is a bad kicker because I believe John Hall is a bad kicker". Use some games, some numbers, something to back up your opinion, or stop wasting everyone's time.

(Starts a slow clap.)

[Syllable]

Another Stat for Bw, he has had leg injuries for about 3 years, and can never play a full Season. Even if he plays well, what then? Get injured in 2 weeks?

[shally]

Holy Cow! You didn't really understand what I was asking for did you? I'm not even necessarily disagreeing with you. But you have not backed up your position with anything. You simply state that Hall is unreliable. That doesn't make it so. Reliability is a pattern of results. I'll spot you one result: last night. But one night does not make a pattern.

(This paragraph pertains to Syllable, as well) Just because you hold your breath when he kicks doesn't mean he is a bad kicker. It means YOU don't have faith in him, which would only be significant if your faith had a deciding factor in the outcome of the game. But, unfortunately for your arguement, your belief has absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of plays.

Again, I haven't even disagreed with you yet, but thats mostly because you haven't made an actual arguement yet. You have said, in a nutshell, "John Hall is a bad kicker because I believe John Hall is a bad kicker". Use some games, some numbers, something to back up your opinion, or stop wasting everyone's time.

it is moot now because joe gibbs has said he is his kicker.. time for all of us to move on...

[bwparker]

Another Stat for Bw, he has had leg injuries for about 3 years, and can never play a full Season. Even if he plays well, what then? Get injured in 2 weeks?
Injuries is a legitimate gripe. I absolutely agree with you. It doesn't make him a "bad" player, but it makes him a liability.

[smoak]

Another Stat for Bw, he has had leg injuries for about 3 years, and can never play a full Season. Even if he plays well, what then? Get injured in 2 weeks?

Any football player can get hurt at any time. Portis has been injured every year he has been in the league and missed some games. Should we cut him? Your speculating that Hall might get injured, and I could speculate that he'll make the Pro bowl.

I'm also not disagreeing with the concern about Hall, but I am sick of the inevitable "cut player x" mentality that runs wild here after a loss. No wonder Danny boy was so bad when he first started as owner... He had to transition out of being a "knee-jerk reaction fan".

[Syllable]

True True, but after getting your same hamstring pulled like 5 billion times how do you expect to kick past 45 yards?

To smoak, there is a difference in playing dinged up and just flat out not playing.

[bwparker]

Injuries is a legitimate gripe. I absolutely agree with you. It doesn't make him a "bad" player, but it makes him a liability.
Ok...so my contention is that Hall is an above average kicker, who is not worthy of elite status (and certainly not above replacement) but is not deserving of the a title equivalent to "Complete Trash" So I'm going to go through every game and look at the stats on every kick over the past four years and see if I can notice any factual trends...this will take a while and I'm not real sure what I will come up with, but we shall see...

[Syllable]

Ok...so my contention is that Hall is an above average kicker, who is not worthy of elite status (and certainly not above replacement) but is not deserving of the a title equivalent to "Complete Trash" So I'm going to go through every game and look at the stats on every kick over the past four years and see if I can notice any factual trends...this will take a while and I'm not real sure what I will come up with, but we shall see...
You got any "stats' to back up that hes an Above average player. I really havnt seen him do anybetter than most kickers in the league. I can Name about 11 who are better than him off the bat, so 11 kickers down doesnt make you Above average.

[smoak]

You got any "stats' to back up that hes an Above average player. I really havnt seen him do anybetter than most kickers in the league. I can Name about 11 who are better than him off the bat, so 11 kickers down doesnt make you Above average.

To be fair, at this point you can only compare him to the guys on the street.

[bwparker]

You got any "stats' to back up that hes an Above average player. I really havnt seen him do anybetter than most kickers in the league. I can Name about 11 who are better than him off the bat, so 11 kickers down doesnt make you Above average.
Look on page 9, I put a bunch of stats there...and to me being top 10-20 is average to above average. But I'm actually fine with calling him an average kicker...and despite what everyone has said has been VERY consistant from short to mid range:


(All stats pertain to his years as a Redskin)
Never missed inside 30 yards
Only missed twice inside 40 (during first year here)
Last year he was 5/6 from 40-49, (83%) which is actually quite good.

[BIGSEF3]

Any football player can get hurt at any time. Portis has been injured every year he has been in the league and missed some games. Should we cut him? Your speculating that Hall might get injured, and I could speculate that he'll make the Pro bowl.

I'm also not disagreeing with the concern about Hall, but I am sick of the inevitable "cut player x" mentality that runs wild here after a loss. No wonder Danny boy was so bad when he first started as owner... He had to transition out of being a "knee-jerk reaction fan".

i agree that no one should be canned for one bad play. but think back a few weeks. we got rid of several "good" players because they couldnt stay healthy. yes, anyone can get injured, but Hall is truly injury-PRONE. If it was standard to keep 3 field goal kickers on our roster, I would be all for keeping hall - he's got a great upside. But we can only have one field goal kicker so we had better make it a good one. I can only speak for myself, but my wanting to get rid of hall is not a knee-jerk reaction. PK is a position I strongly felt should have been upgraded all offseason. Heck, the two best kickers in the league were available. I wouldnt have touched vanderjerk with a 10-foot pole, but we should have made vinateri an offer he couldnt refuse.

[smoak]

So who since Chip Lohmiller has been better than Hall???

Off the top of my head, the only one you could argue is David Akers and if memory serves me he missed all of his kicks as a Redskin. Novak, Hustead, Blanton Kimron, Murray, Conway... Should we go on? I know there are more. Give me a friggin break! It was one kick and out HALL OF FAME coach has faith in John Hall. He sees the man EVER day in practice and we don't see anything but game day. So tell me, if we get rid of Hall, who do you get off the street to replace him!??? There is nobody out there, and crying about not signing Adam V isn't goping to help matters.

[smoak]

i agree that no one should be canned for one bad play. but think back a few weeks. we got rid of several "good" players because they couldnt stay healthy. yes, anyone can get injured, but Hall is truly injury-PRONE. If it was standard to keep 3 field goal kickers on our roster, I would be all for keeping hall - he's got a great upside. But we can only have one field goal kicker so we had better make it a good one. I can only speak for myself, but my wanting to get rid of hall is not a knee-jerk reaction. PK is a position I strongly felt should have been upgraded all offseason. Heck, the two best kickers in the league were available. I wouldnt have touched vanderjerk with a 10-foot pole, but we should have made vinateri an offer he couldnt refuse.

Of course I'd rather have Adam V, but that ship sailed. Hall is 100% healthy now and there is nobody else out there that would be an upgrade. Nobody. He isn't great, but compared to some of the dogs that have kicked here you'd think he'd be appreciated.

[dcumdfan]

IMO Hall's stats do not accurately reflect where he is at today. He has had two big kicks in our last two games (seahawks and vikes) and not even hit the net. Its one thing to miss close, its another thing to shank it. The old John Hall reflective in those stats wouldnt do such a thing. He is apparently a different person now. He also looked rough in the preseason and scrimmage.

In addition Hall cant handle kick off duties. Frost is so inconsistent and sometimes cant muster the ball past the 15. The field postion we give up off kick offs is killer.

Im not saying cut John Hall, but maybe a little competition would help him out. Novak is not the savior but hell, why not bring him in and see what he has in practice, what is there to lose? I know he hit a 51 yd fg in the preseason.

[shally]

Of course I'd rather have Adam V, but that ship sailed. Hall is 100% healthy now and there is nobody else out there that would be an upgrade. Nobody. He isn't great, but compared to some of the dogs that have kicked here you'd think he'd be appreciated.


i am not convinced that hall is healthy.. or that he has fully regained confidence inhis stroke.. he has looked unsettled all preseason and 2 out of the 4 fg's were ugly looking.. the difference was that the 22 yarder was so close he got it through. it would have been no good from 30-35 yards..

we have little choice now

[shally]

So who since Chip Lohmiller has been better than Hall???

Off the top of my head, the only one you could argue is David Akers and if memory serves me he missed all of his kicks as a Redskin. Novak, Hustead, Blanton Kimron, Murray, Conway... Should we go on? I know there are more. Give me a friggin break! It was one kick and out HALL OF FAME coach has faith in John Hall. He sees the man EVER day in practice and we don't see anything but game day. So tell me, if we get rid of Hall, who do you get off the street to replace him!??? There is nobody out there, and crying about not signing Adam V isn't goping to help matters.

i think akers had 1 kick, that he missed, plus maybe one of the kick offs was short.. that was the only shot he got..

conway was as good as hall, until he got hurt. then it went down hill fast.. that is what i worry about. once the kickers start to lose it (lohmiller included)
it usually goes only 1 way

but to come back to it.. gibbs wants hall.. that is the end of it, so we might as well accept it and hope for the best

[Syllable]

So who since Chip Lohmiller has been better than Hall???

Off the top of my head, the only one you could argue is David Akers and if memory serves me he missed all of his kicks as a Redskin. Novak, Hustead, Blanton Kimron, Murray, Conway... Should we go on? I know there are more. Give me a friggin break! It was one kick and out HALL OF FAME coach has faith in John Hall. He sees the man EVER day in practice and we don't see anything but game day. So tell me, if we get rid of Hall, who do you get off the street to replace him!??? There is nobody out there, and crying about not signing Adam V isn't goping to help matters.
Thats a question of getting a better kicker, just because the kicker has been there for a long time doesnt mean hes great, it means he is consistant. And by the looks of it hes been missing our game ending field goals. Novak and Kimron both subbed in for someone who was dealing with nagging injuries.

The way people go in this board is rediculous, like a qb who has been sacked to many times. Before there were way to many "CUT THIS GUY" threads so now you cant even say something bad about a player without someone yelling and flaming, while the person only wants to point out something wrong. In this case some want Hall out, I do, I don't like someone who for the last 2 years hasn't made many clutch kicks.
This is not directed at smoak's quote since he really knows what hes talking ab00t.

[CNYSkinFan]

it is moot now because joe gibbs has said he is his kicker.. time for all of us to move on...
Joe Gibbs once said Patrick Ramsey was the future of the team as well. Gibbs says anything to pump up his player but he will upgrade when he wants to.

[Syllable]

Its up to the players to let Joe down. Like Ramsey had let him down, he didn't start for much longer.

[smoak]

Thats a question of getting a better kicker, just because the kicker has been there for a long time doesnt mean hes great, it means he is consistant. And by the looks of it hes been missing our game ending field goals. Novak and Kimron both subbed in for someone who was dealing with nagging injuries.

The way people go in this board is rediculous, like a qb who has been sacked to many times. Before there were way to many "CUT THIS GUY" threads so now you cant even say something bad about a player without someone yelling and flaming, while the person only wants to point out something wrong. In this case some want Hall out, I do, I don't like someone who for the last 2 years hasn't made many clutch kicks.
This is not directed at smoak's quote since he really knows what hes talking ab00t.

That is fair, but I was here in '04 when a couple "Skins fans" would start negative threads about players and Gibbs after every loss. Oddly enough, they were not around to share in the glory of '05 (or at least the two I despised weren't). Also people were so venemous about the hatred of Brunell that I was embarrassed to be a Skins fan.

I think it is fair to be critical, but I just ask that people do so in a constructive manner and not act like first graders. I was half expecting to see a complaint about Hall's momma. I'm sure he'd be the first one to tell you that he is paid to make that kick and I'm sure he is doing everything he can to improve.

[Syllable]

Yes something that shows that he has confidence in his leg and just had a bad kick. One of the announcers said it was windy, could that be it?

[shally]

Joe Gibbs once said Patrick Ramsey was the future of the team as well. Gibbs says anything to pump up his player but he will upgrade when he wants to.

i could have phrased it better. as long as gibbs wants hall, i will accept his choice.. i just hope he changes his mind today

[shally]

Yes something that shows that he has confidence in his leg and just had a bad kick. One of the announcers said it was windy, could that be it?

the wind definitely affected longwells 54 yarder.. but hall gets no pass on his 48 yarder. it was hooked and ugly and had no chance fromthe moment it left his foot

[bwparker]

Ok here is what I have found:
2003 - John's first year here. He came out the gates blazing, in two of the first 3 games he kicked game winning field goals with less than 20 seconds left in the game both from 33 yards out. Over the first 5 games he was 4/5 from 50+ yards. Those two early game winners were the only game winning type FGs he would be asked to make all year long. In games that were ultimately decided by 3 points or less, John's overall kicking was a good (but unspectacular) 16/22(72.7%)

2004 - John's first injury woes. This is probably Hall's worst year, statistically. He missed the bulk of the season with injuries and though he was perfect inside of 40 yards, he was a miserable 1/4 from over 40 yards. Fortunately for him, and us, he was only ever asked to make two kick that could consider "game deciding" and they were in the first game of the season, he actually hit both of them to put the Skins up by 6 in the fourth quarter to win the game. In games that were ultimately decided by 3 points or less John was 1/2 (50%).

2005 - John's continued injuries. This year was actually quite good overall, but lacked oomph in one category which I believe is most of the cause for concern over Hall. He again missed much of the season with injuries, but was extremely accurate when he played going 12/14(85.7%) in the regular season, but 2/3(66.7%) in the playoffs. The good news is that in games that were ultimately decided by 3 points or less, or went into overtime (this puts the San Diego game into the mix) Hall was 8/9(88.9%), thats spectacular. But Hall choked in big game/gamer winner situations. That one miss was in the San Diego game where Hall missed a 52 yard attempt that would have won us the game. He later made a 47 yard attempt in an extremely close and defensive Tampa Bay game, but missed a 36 yard attempt in Seattle that would have put the game within 4 points.

I think we can easily point to three factors as the cause of ill will towards John Hall.

1st was an injury plagued and statistically ugly 2004.

2nd the missed 52 yard attempt in the San Diego game, its the only game clinching type situation that I can find that he's botched for us (It was very long, but it was pivotal at that point)

3rd was the missed 36 yard attempt again Seattle in the playoffs. I don't think anything needs to be said about this: Playoffs + 36 yards + miss = travesty

Add to that missed field goal last night and its easy for me to understand why someone could say "He got hurt, now he's lost his ability to hit big ones." I disagree.

I don't think John has been completely healthy till this year. Outside of that, I look at the fact that he was 8/9 in regular season games last year where regulation time ended and the score was less than 3 points apart. that includes 3 perfect games, including two in a row (Losses in Tampa and again Oakland). I look at the 47 yard FG against Tampa in the playoffs, a game that was close and low scoring and every point, every redzone possession, could have been enough to decide the game. I look at those factors and I say that John may have slipped a little, but he hasn't lost it. He is just now getting healthy and starting to get back in it, I'm willing to give him time. But then again, I was a Ramsey supporter too....

[BIGSEF3]

i could have phrased it better. as long as gibbs wants hall, i will accept his choice.. i just hope he changes his mind today

We all have to "accept" whatever happens in relation to our beloved team. Why is it so hard for some people (not picking on you shally, just making a general observation) to just come out and say they don't like one of Joe Gibbs' decisions?

There must be something about Halls character Gibbs really likes because he's been given ALOT more slack than he has deserved over the past two years, in my opinion. All I know is I felt more confident in Nick Novak than I do with John Hall, who has nothing but his laurels. With injuries to key players on offense and defense, its absolutely vital that we have the best kicker available on our roster.

[shally]

Ok here is what I have found:
2003 - John's first year here. He came out the gates blazing, in two of the first 3 games he kicked game winning field goals with less than 20 seconds left in the game both from 33 yards out. Over the first 5 games he was 4/5 from 50+ yards. Those two early game winners were the only game winning type FGs he would be asked to make all year long. In games that were ultimately decided by 3 points or less, John's overall kicking was a good (but unspectacular) 16/22(72.7%)

2004 - John's first injury woes. This is probably Hall's worst year, statistically. He missed the bulk of the season with injuries and though he was perfect inside of 40 yards, he was a miserable 1/4 from over 40 yards. Fortunately for him, and us, he was only ever asked to make two kick that could consider "game deciding" and they were in the first game of the season, he actually hit both of them to put the Skins up by 6 in the fourth quarter to win the game. In games that were ultimately decided by 3 points or less John was 1/2 (50%).

2005 - John's continued injuries. This year was actually quite good overall, but lacked oomph in one category which I believe is most of the cause for concern over Hall. He again missed much of the season with injuries, but was extremely accurate when he played going 12/14(85.7%) in the regular season, but 2/3(66.7%) in the playoffs. The good news is that in games that were ultimately decided by 3 points or less, or went into overtime (this puts the San Diego game into the mix) Hall was 8/9(88.9%), thats spectacular. But Hall choked in big game/gamer winner situations. That one miss was in the San Diego game where Hall missed a 52 yard attempt that would have won us the game. He later made a 47 yard attempt in an extremely close and defensive Tampa Bay game, but missed a 36 yard attempt in Seattle that would have put the game within 4 points.

I think we can easily point to three factors as the cause of ill will towards John Hall.

1st was an injury plagued and statistically ugly 2004.

2nd the missed 52 yard attempt in the San Diego game, its the only game clinching type situation that I can find that he's botched for us (It was very long, but it was pivotal at that point)

3rd was the missed 36 yard attempt again Seattle in the playoffs. I don't think anything needs to be said about this: Playoffs + 36 yards + miss = travesty

Add to that missed field goal last night and its easy for me to understand why someone could say "He got hurt, now he's lost his ability to hit big ones." I disagree.

I don't think John has been completely healthy till this year. Outside of that, I look at the fact that he was 8/9 in regular season games last year where regulation time ended and the score was less than 3 points apart. that includes 3 perfect games, including two in a row (Losses in Tampa and again Oakland). I look at the 47 yard FG against Tampa in the playoffs, a game that was close and low scoring and every point, every redzone possession, could have been enough to decide the game. I look at those factors and I say that John may have slipped a little, but he hasn't lost it. He is just now getting healthy and starting to get back in it, I'm willing to give him time. But then again, I was a Ramsey supporter too....


time will tell.. if he has a solid game against dallas it will go a long way towards quelling things.. but subjective memory is a hard thing to disperse and the misses against seattle and minnesota are freshest in people's minds and that is what is driving a lot of this. what have you done for us lately ?

[Syllable]

We all have to "accept" whatever happens in relation to our beloved team. Why is it so hard for some people (not picking on you shally, just making a general observation) to just come out and say they don't like one of Joe Gibbs' decisions?

There must be something about Halls character Gibbs really likes because he's been given ALOT more slack than he has deserved over the past two years, in my opinion. All I know is I felt more confident in Nick Novak than I do with John Hall, who has nothing but his laurels. With injuries to key players on offense and defense, its absolutely vital that we have the best kicker available on our roster.
Bullseye, with a new developing offense, I see that we will be kicking alot of field goals 40+. If Hall can do it I am all for it, if he can't we might get 1k posts if he fails again.

[warpaint]

time will tell.. if he has a solid game against dallas it will go a long way towards quelling things.. but subjective memory is a hard thing to disperse and the misses against seattle and minnesota are freshest in people's minds and that is what is driving a lot of this. what have you done for us lately ?

i saw hall on tv last night and they were asking him about the missed field goal
one thing that gives a lot of people away is their eyes, i.m.o. his eyes are showing no confidence at all, this is the same thing gibbs can see, if a kicker doesnt have any confidence in himself,then he will never win the big game,when there is the pressure factor.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

We all have to "accept" whatever happens in relation to our beloved team. Why is it so hard for some people (not picking on you shally, just making a general observation) to just come out and say they don't like one of Joe Gibbs' decisions?

There must be something about Halls character Gibbs really likes because he's been given ALOT more slack than he has deserved over the past two years, in my opinion. All I know is I felt more confident in Nick Novak than I do with John Hall, who has nothing but his laurels. With injuries to key players on offense and defense, its absolutely vital that we have the best kicker available on our roster.
I don't like Gibbs's decision to not upgrade the kicker position with either Vinatieri or Longwell during the offseason.
Unfortunately, now there is nothing anybody can do about it and we have to stick with him.

[BIGSEF3]

I don't like Gibbs's decision to not upgrade the kicker position with either Vinatieri or Longwell during the offseason.
Unfortunately, now there is nothing anybody can do about it and we have to stick with him.

....or sign novak. :-)

[shally]

....or sign novak. :-)
no.. it is an entirely different dynamic to have replaced hall with AV or longwell than to sub for him with novak.. not even close

[SpicyMcHaggis]

no.. it is an entirely different dynamic to have replaced hall with AV or longwell than to sub for him with novak.. not even close
Exactly. If it isnt already clear, I want to clarify my position. I do NOT want Hall to be cut or replaced now. There is nobody out there who is equal to or better than him (IMO obviously). I would have hoped to solve the "problem" in the offseason when there were 2 excellent kickers available. And this is not a reaction after 1 game. I have thought this throughout the offseason, and expressed this in the "what concerns you the most" thread, where I voted kicker.
(But I think BIGSEF was joking..)

[redskin2117]

I'm not directing my comment to anyone specifically. I just get tired of the wretched conga line of hate that lines up after a loss.

With ya smoak. I've been trying to feel better about our loss by coming here and this bothers me too. Course, after that loss I'm real fragile right now and I don't know what to do ABOOT it!

[Syllable]

no.. it is an entirely different dynamic to have replaced hall with AV or longwell than to sub for him with novak.. not even close
Longwell is on the same boat as Hall is so not to much of an upgrade there.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Longwell is on the same boat as Hall is so not to much of an upgrade there.
:lol1: This is a joke right?

[Syllable]

:lol1: This is a joke right?
They both missed a Longranged fieldgoals and hit all there medium ranged ones, so I was kinda literal.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

They both missed a Longranged fieldgoals and hit all there medium ranged ones, so I was kinda literal.
Then you were kinda wrong. For a number of reasons. First of all, Longwell missed a 54 yarder against the wind. Secondly, he made a 46 (or 47) yarder, not just 27 or 25 yarders. Thirdly, I have already posted Hall's and Longwell's career stats on this thread, and Longwell's are significantly better, even though he kicked his whole career in Green Bay. Lastly, you are judging two players by how the did in ONE game?
Once again, I think you should try checking your facts before you post..

[Syllable]

Then you were kinda wrong. For a number of reasons. First of all, Longwell missed a 54 yarder against the wind. Secondly, he made a 46 (or 47) yarder, not just 27 or 25 yarders. Thirdly, I have already posted Hall's and Longwell's career stats on this thread, and Longwell's are significantly better, even though he kicked his whole career in Green Bay. Lastly, you are judging two players by how the did in ONE game?
Once again, I think you should try checking your facts before you post..
Stats don't make a huge impact when it comes to kicking. Yes it is a placeholder for how many kicks you made or not, but its allways changing and one missed kick and ruin you.

Adam V didn't have the prettiest stats but he is still hotter than Neil Rackers to most people.


Kicking is subjective to its year. Peoples legs change and their mentality too.

I think Hall needs to hit another far one in a game to get his rythm back and his confidence.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Stats don't make a huge impact when it comes to kicking. Yes it is a placeholder for how many kicks you made or not, but its allways changing and one missed kick and ruin you.

Adam V didn't have the prettiest stats but he is still hotter than Neil Rackers to most people.


Kicking is subjective to its year. Peoples legs change and their mentality too.

I think Hall needs to hit another far one in a game to get his rythm back and his confidence.
What exactly does any of this have to do with what we were discussing? You said Longwell is not much of an upgrade over Hall. I told you you were wrong. You backed up your statement with false facts (again). I told you I had already compared Hall and Longwell in this thread (post #189). With true facts, that is. Now you answer this?
Why do stats not make a huge impact when it comes to kicking? Why is it always changing? What does that mean? And why does one missed kick ruin you?
What do Vinatieri and Rackers have anything to do with this? Is one supposed to be Hall and the other Longwell?
What does the sentence "Kicking is subjective to its year" mean?? Kicks are different in 2006 than they were in 2005? They change the goalposts from one year to another?
And your last sentence may or may not be true, but it has nothing to do with him being better than Longwell, because he never was in the first place.

[hailj]

hall is gonna be around for awhile. there really are not any other better options available, at the moment.

[BIGSEF3]

no.. it is an entirely different dynamic to have replaced hall with AV or longwell than to sub for him with novak.. not even close

no its not. but at this point we dont have the option for AV or longwell and Novak is an upgrade over Hall, in my opinion.

[smoak]

no its not. but at this point we dont have the option for AV or longwell and Novak is an upgrade over Hall, in my opinion.

Thankfully the people in charge have better opinions that fans (myself included).