Muslims angered again

[RedskinsDave]

This time because the Pope quoted a Byzantine Emperor.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5346480.stm

Questioning the concept of holy war, he quoted a 14th-Century Christian emperor who said Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things

I find it funny that the same things were said in the middle ages that are being said now.

[akhhorus]

Why he said this is beyond me. The muslims shouldn't get that upset about it, but the Pope needs to think before he speaks.



Oh and as a historian, the irony of a Pope quoting a Byzantine Emperor isn't lost on me.

[Spence]

Oh and as a historian, the irony of a Pope quoting a Byzantine Emperor isn't lost on me.That was the first thing that occurred to me, too. I guess he's burying the hatchet...into Mohammed. :)

Although, I must admit that when I read Dave's title "Muslims Angered Again," I thought: Muslims angry again? What're the odds, eh?

[akhhorus]

That was the first thing that occurred to me, too. I guess he's burying the hatchet...into Mohammed. :)

And yet, that never has worked.

[shally]

This time because the Pope quoted a Byzantine Emperor.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5346480.stm



I find it funny that the same things were said in the middle ages that are being said now.


who cares.. rage, impotent or otherwise is their thing... when they stop commenting upon other religions and believers maybe people will cut them slack..

[Biggie]

Uhhh... I'm not angry.

And akh, stop being such a cynic. The Vatican is taking the initiative here and finally making amends... 650 years too late. :rolleyes:

[BurgundyNGold]

Uhhh... I'm not angry.

And akh, stop being such a cynic. The Vatican is taking the initiative here and finally making amends... 650 years too late. :rolleyes:
Muslims don't have anything against Christians or the Vatican per se. If that were the case, the suicide attacks would be directed at the Vatican. I think there are those radicals in both the Muslim and the Christian worlds that would abolutely love to see a knock 'em out, drag 'em out religious war though.

[Biggie]

Muslims don't have anything against Christians or the Vatican per se. If that were the case, the suicide attacks would be directed at the Vatican. I think there are those radicals in both the Muslim and the Christian worlds that would abolutely love to see a knock 'em out, drag 'em out religious war though.

You'd think they'd be happy with the 200 year's worth that already happened...

And to be honest, real Muslims hold Jesus in almost as high regard as they do Mohammad.

[BurgundyNGold]

You'd think they'd be happy with the 200 year's worth that already happened...

And to be honest, real Muslims hold Jesus in almost as high regard as they do Mohammad.
... and Moses and Abraham. They were all prophets. Real muslims know this. So do the radicals trying to steal the religion from the people, only it does not behoove their ends to remember any of that.

[akhhorus]

Uhhh... I'm not angry.

And akh, stop being such a cynic. The Vatican is taking the initiative here and finally making amends... 650 years too late. :rolleyes:

You don't quote a Byzantine Emperor to try and extend the olive branch.

And to be honest, real Muslims hold Jesus in almost as high regard as they do Mohammad.

This is very true. He's considered the 2nd of the 3 major prophets, right?

[OCSkinzFan]

Muslims don't have anything against Christians or the Vatican per se. If that were the case, the suicide attacks would be directed at the Vatican. I think there are those radicals in both the Muslim and the Christian worlds that would abolutely love to see a knock 'em out, drag 'em out religious war though.
Real Muslims know that the Qur'an commands Muslims to protect not only mosques, but also monasteries, synagogues, and churches because "God is worshipped therein."

[shally]

Real Muslims know that the Qur'an commands Muslims to protect not only mosques, but also monasteries, synagogues, and churches because "God is worshipped therein."

problem is the the fundamentalist crazies have co-opted things.. similar to the way some fundamentalist christians have don ethe same.
the moderates have to assert themselves or it will do irrecovable damage
to the way the religion is perceived and reacted to..

[OCSkinzFan]

You'd think they'd be happy with the 200 year's worth that already happened...

And to be honest, real Muslims hold Jesus in almost as high regard as they do Mohammad.

According to Islam, Jesus is the result of a virgin birth, and he performed many miracles; but he is not God, or the son of God, or part of a trinity. Muslems do not believe that he was crucified or that he rose from the dead. His virgin birth is considered to be on a par with the creation of Adam and he is regarded as a prophet just like the others.

“Each one of them believes in God, His angels, His books, and His Messengers. They say: 'We make no distinction between one and another of His Messengers.' And they say: 'We hear, and we obey. We seek Thy forgiveness, Our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.'" (Al-Baqarah, 2:285)

But traditionally, there are six prophets that are considered especially important in Islam: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus (Arabic:Isa) and Muhammad, who is the most revered prophet in Islam. If I had to bet on who’s number two, it would be Abraham, who is called “the father of the prophets and the friend of God.” But given the fact that God raised Jesus to Himself (Jesus ascended into heaven) and Muslims are awaiting the return of Jesus The Messiah, and He (Jesus) will defeat the Dajjal(the Anti-Christ) you could make a good argument for Jesus as the number two prophet; especially since the Qur’an mentions his name 25 times and Muhammad's only five.

[OCSkinzFan]

problem is the the fundamentalist crazies have co-opted things.. similar to the way some fundamentalist christians have don ethe same.
the moderates have to assert themselves or it will do irrecovable damage
to the way the religion is perceived and reacted to..

I don't think fundamentalist Christians have gone that far yet. I sort of picture fundamentalist Muslims as if 10 million Amish who thought the ends always justifies the means, and didn't reject technological advances in weapons, believed that God had commanded them to fight an international guerrilla war.

[BurgundyNGold]

I don't think fundamentalist Christians have gone that far yet. I sort of picture fundamentalist Muslims as if 10 million Amish who thought the ends always justifies the means, and didn't reject technological advances in weapons, believed that God had commanded them to fight an international guerrilla war.
And that differs from fundamentalist Christians exactly how? :D

[shally]

I don't think fundamentalist Christians have gone that far yet. I sort of picture fundamentalist Muslims as if 10 million Amish who thought the ends always justifies the means, and didn't reject technological advances in weapons, believed that God had commanded them to fight an international guerrilla war.

there are not as many, but the anti abortionists who kill doctors are right out there with the bombers in terms of evil... just not as many

[OCSkinzFan]

there are not as many, but the anti abortionists who kill doctors are right out there with the bombers in terms of evil... just not as many
Fundamentalists that commit terroristic acts seem exist comfortably contradicting the tenants of what should be their belief systems.

Just as when Javed Ahmed Gamdi said, "jihad was not about spreading Islam with the sword." He was only telling half the truth, and he and other Muslims aren't doing much to remove the images of dancing in the streets on 9/11. Where is his outrage at the desecration to Islam that terrorists commit when they kill innocent people in the name of Allah?

[shally]

Fundamentalists that commit terroristic acts seem exist comfortably contradicting the tenants of what should be their belief systems.

Just as when Javed Ahmed Gamdi said, "jihad was not about spreading Islam with the sword." He was only telling half the truth, and he and other Muslims aren't doing much to remove the images of dancing in the streets on 9/11. Where is his outrage at the desecration to Islam that terrorists commit when they kill innocent people in the name of Allah?

indeed.. where is the outrage from the moderate muslim world? until they step up and squash people like sadr and get control of their own house, people will feel revulsion but will do little. same as the sad response to the genocide the goes on continuously in africa. the only reason most people care about the internal muslim slaughter is because of oil. and because they do have the capacity to reach out and hurt much of the world . take that away and sadly people would not even give it a moments thought

[OCSkinzFan]

And that differs from fundamentalist Christians exactly how? :D
No snake-dancing and fewer beards!:D

[RedskinsDave]

Oh boy, predictably things are being burned and people are rioting.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=405238&in_page_id=1811&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5

[akhhorus]

Oh boy, predictably things are being burned and people are rioting.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=405238&in_page_id=1811&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5

I should just open up a chain of flag stores selling US, British and Israeli flags in the Middle East and I'll be able to retire.

[RedskinsDave]

I should just open up a chain of flag stores selling US, British and Israeli flags in the Middle East and I'll be able to retire.

Someone did a show where they showed shops that do exactly that. They sell them with lighters, no joke.

[akhhorus]

Someone did a show where they showed shops that do exactly that. They sell them with lighters, no joke.

Lol, gotta love capitalism. I think half of that crap is staged anyways. The rallies never look that full and never seem to last that long. I heard a reporter say that they rallies last as long as the cameras are rolling, then break up. In the more authoritarian countries, they forcefully break up the rallies after the news crews turn their cameras off.

[shally]

I should just open up a chain of flag stores selling US, British and Israeli flags in the Middle East and I'll be able to retire.

you would have to grow a beard and give up bourbon (at least in public)

[BurgundyNGold]

Lol, gotta love capitalism. I think half of that crap is staged anyways. The rallies never look that full and never seem to last that long. I heard a reporter say that they rallies last as long as the cameras are rolling, then break up. In the more authoritarian countries, they forcefully break up the rallies after the news crews turn their cameras off.
Plus the "riot" in the article was in India. Not exactly a sweltering hotbed of Arab dissent.

[akhhorus]

Plus the "riot" in the article was in India. Not exactly a sweltering hotbed of Arab dissent.

Plenty of Muslims there, not many Arabs.

[Keino]

Plenty of Muslims there, not many Arabs.

If you carry Lighters you will make a kiling.

[Spence]

You know, I'm getting pretty sick of these violent protests every time someone says something that offends a Muslim. I'm offended ten times a day by crap I see, hear, and read. Never burn anything in "protest."

[akhhorus]

You know, I'm getting pretty sick of these violent protests every time someone says something that offends a Muslim. I'm offended ten times a day by crap I see, hear, and read. Never burn anything in "protest."

Except for things like my bar tab, the National Review, underwear.

[shally]

You know, I'm getting pretty sick of these violent protests every time someone says something that offends a Muslim. I'm offended ten times a day by crap I see, hear, and read. Never burn anything in "protest."

and it is not equal opportunity.. muslim clerics say some pretty negative things about other religions and nations..

the points is, who cares what they say or think at these public rallies. it is all staged and orchestrated

[RedskinsDave]

You know, I'm getting pretty sick of these violent protests every time someone says something that offends a Muslim. I'm offended ten times a day by crap I see, hear, and read. Never burn anything in "protest."

That's really the point of me starting a thread on it. It's ridiculous but totally predictable.

[shally]

That's really the point of me starting a thread on it. It's ridiculous but totally predictable.

it was like the mourning woman in every reuters pic after the israeli invasion.. same woman. .. she was professional.. these chumps are the same also.
why should anyone even care, it is all staged...

[BurgundyNGold]

Plenty of Muslims there, not many Arabs.
Plenty of muslims by numbers, not by percentage. And my point was that if the Egyptians, Lebanese or Syrians aren't in an uproar -- and they tend to be the first to get worked up -- why should the Muslims in India be? Perhaps because it's staged?

[akhhorus]

Plenty of muslims by numbers, not by percentage. And my point was that if the Egyptians, Lebanese or Syrians aren't in an uproar -- and they tend to be the first to get worked up -- why should the Muslims in India be? Perhaps because it's staged?

exactly.

[shally]

Plenty of muslims by numbers, not by percentage. And my point was that if the Egyptians, Lebanese or Syrians aren't in an uproar -- and they tend to be the first to get worked up -- why should the Muslims in India be? Perhaps because it's staged?

it is ALL staged.. it is not as if these people actually have 9-5 jobs and just show up because they feel they have to protest.. same as it used to be in most communist countries.. demonstration ?? heck, that would be the job for that day.

it is all whipped up..

[dukeuch]

it is ALL staged.. it is not as if these people actually have 9-5 jobs and just show up because they feel they have to protest.. same as it used to be in most communist countries.. demonstration ?? heck, that would be the job for that day.

it is all whipped up..

I don't know why you guys are spending so much time pointing up the obvious, which seems to be that Muslim's demonstrations are "staged". Of course they are, all demonstrations are staged. The freedom marchers in Birmingham were a staged protest, anti-war marches in Washington are staged protests,, Right to Lifer's in front of Planned Parenthood offices are staged protests. What's your point here?

[BurgundyNGold]

I don't know why you guys are spending so much time pointing up the obvious, which seems to be that Muslim's demonstrations are "staged". Of course they are, all demonstrations are staged. The freedom marchers in Birmingham were a staged protest, anti-war marches in Washington are staged protests,, Right to Lifer's in front of Planned Parenthood offices are staged protests. What's your point here?
Do you go out of your way to apples to oranges comparisons? The people in Birmingham or most Western protests by and large know what the hell what they are protesting about. Protests on both sides of the abortion debate know why they're being nutzos. And I don't think MLK went and got a bunch of out of work people to show up for his protests, paying them to do so. Neither can be said about many of these "impromptu" Muslim protests. These "protesters" are often paid their pittance for showing up and putting on a show about which they know little if anything about.

[shally]

I don't know why you guys are spending so much time pointing up the obvious, which seems to be that Muslim's demonstrations are "staged". Of course they are, all demonstrations are staged. The freedom marchers in Birmingham were a staged protest, anti-war marches in Washington are staged protests,, Right to Lifer's in front of Planned Parenthood offices are staged protests. What's your point here?

see BnG's comments for my take on it.. of course there is an element of organization that has to take place to have a demonstration.. that is far different from what goes on inthe middle east. the people have no clue

[skinfanatic]

ive got a feeling the pope is going to say something a lot more outrageous and a lot more conservative at some point in the next year. its is sort of weird hearing all of this same stuff again. i thought my students about the crusades last week. is it really that hard to believe for this pope to call for a new crusade? granted, he prob wont say, KILL EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT EM OUT. maybe he can start throwing some stones at Iran or N. Korea.

[Axegrinder]

I hope that they didn't watch tonights opening episode of "The Amazing Race."

[BurgundyNGold]

I hope that they didn't watch tonights opening episode of "The Amazing Race."
Why, pray tell?

They should've been watching the Redskins game anyway. ;)

[Axegrinder]

Why, pray tell?

They should've been watching the Redskins game anyway. ;)
I taped the show,but as I surfed between commercials I found out at least this much:Before the race started they said that there would be new twists added to the race.Apparently a team was eliminated before the 1st checkpoint,and yes....they were a team of two muslim men.

[BurgundyNGold]

I taped the show,but as I surfed between commercials I found out at least this much:Before the race started they said that there would be new twists added to the race.Apparently a team was eliminated before the 1st checkpoint,and yes....they were a team of two muslim men.
Ah, OK, I get it. Since it was up against the game and I could only TiVo one of them, guess which one got TiVO'd? :D

[dukeuch]

see BnG's comments for my take on it.. of course there is an element of organization that has to take place to have a demonstration.. that is far different from what goes on inthe middle east. the people have no clue

My point is that a protest is a protest. You were saying that a thier protests were staged as if that meant something profound. And these people don't know what they are protesting? How arrogant! They have plenty of ridiculous beefs, but lots of legitimate ones too. Too say that there is no reason these people should be unhappy, and the US has no role in their unhappiness is ludicrous. To fight terrorism effectively, with both force AND diplomacy, we need to at at least understand their mindset, and if we say, "they are evil and crazy, that's it" will only lead to more of the same.

And I believe somewhere in here you ridiculed a crying woman. What, these people don't love their families? Muslims crying for family members don't really feel sorrow when their husbands, wifes, kids are blown up?

You guys paint with too wide a brush.

[dukeuch]

Do you go out of your way to apples to oranges comparisons? The people in Birmingham or most Western protests by and large know what the hell what they are protesting about. Protests on both sides of the abortion debate know why they're being nutzos. And I don't think MLK went and got a bunch of out of work people to show up for his protests, paying them to do so. Neither can be said about many of these "impromptu" Muslim protests. These "protesters" are often paid their pittance for showing up and putting on a show about which they know little if anything about.

Can't let the "nutzos" comment go. What are the "nutzos" doing on the pro-choice side of the abortion debate? I know the right to lifers are bombing clinics and killing doctors, that's nutzo. How about the other side?

[BurgundyNGold]

My point is that a protest is a protest. You were saying that a thier protests were staged as if that meant something profound. And these people don't know what they are protesting? How arrogant!
Nope, it's just the fact. Not everyone is as educated as you think. Especially the people who have been demonstratedly paid to show up at these events. If you think that's the same as what happens in Western countries then you're mistaken.

They have plenty of ridiculous beefs, but lots of legitimate ones too. Too say that there is no reason these people should be unhappy, and the US has no role in their unhappiness is ludicrous. To fight terrorism effectively, with both force AND diplomacy, we need to at at least understand their mindset, and if we say, "they are evil and crazy, that's it" will only lead to more of the same.
Umm... the protest was about what the Pope said. That doesn't give you license to take another unsolicited swipe at America or it's foreign policy in this thread. Keep your eye on the ball.

And I believe somewhere in here you ridiculed a crying woman. What, these people don't love their families? Muslims crying for family members don't really feel sorrow when their husbands, wifes, kids are blown up?
Not by the Pope. That's what we're talking about. Eye on ball...

You guys paint with too wide a brush.
Nope. We're being very specific. You're trying to make this about civil rights protests and American foreign policy in Iraq. It sounds to me like you're the one with the wide brush.

[dukeuch]

BurgundyNGold]Nope, it's just the fact. Not everyone is as educated as you think. Especially the people who have been demonstratedly paid to show up at these events. If you think that's the same as what happens in Western countries then you're mistaken.

Education really has little to do with it. If you are uneducated and persecuted, or even if you just THINK you are persecuted, you feel persecuted and act accordingly. Demonstrably paid? Says who, our trustworty administration? It's like the old saying "just because you are paraniod doesn't mean they are not after you".


Umm... the protest was about what the Pope said. That doesn't give you license to take another unsolicited swipe at America or it's foreign policy in this thread. Keep your eye on the ball.

Here's what Shally said about the "professional" protesters:

"it was like the mourning woman in every reuters pic after the israeli invasion.. same woman. .. she was professional.. these chumps are the same also why should anyone even care, it is all staged..."

I see reference to "professional protesters" and "isreali invasion", do you see something else?

Keep the eye on the ball? By the end of the first page, we were talking in generalities (your post, which I agreed with, by the way). Top of second page Shally mentioned anti-abortion nuts, not the Pope's speech about the Byzantine empire.



Not by the Pope. That's what we're talking about. Eye on ball...

Correct, not by the Pope, but by posters here. Why not take them to task, dude?


Nope. We're being very specific. You're trying to make this about civil rights protests and American foreign policy in Iraq. It sounds to me like you're the one with the wide brush.[/QUOTE]

See above. I see lots of general references to Muslims, their anger, their lack of intelligence, and their professionally motivated protests and grief. Very little of it directly relating to the original point of the post, and not inititally generated by myself.

[BurgundyNGold]

Education really has little to do with it. If you are uneducated and persecuted, or even if you just THINK you are persecuted, you feel persecuted and act accordingly. Demonstrably paid? Says who, our trustworty administration? It's like the old saying "just because you are paraniod doesn't mean they are not after you".

Here's what Shally said about the "professional" protesters:

"it was like the mourning woman in every reuters pic after the israeli invasion.. same woman. .. she was professional.. these chumps are the same also why should anyone even care, it is all staged..."

I see reference to "professional protesters" and "isreali invasion", do you see something else?

Keep the eye on the ball? By the end of the first page, we were talking in generalities (your post, which I agreed with, by the way). Top of second page Shally mentioned anti-abortion nuts, not the Pope's speech about the Byzantine empire.

Correct, not by the Pope, but by posters here. Why not take them to task, dude?

See above. I see lots of general references to Muslims, their anger, their lack of intelligence, and their professionally motivated protests and grief. Very little of it directly relating to the original point of the post, and not inititally generated by myself.
I was under the impression that you were replying to my post. I haven't read all of shally's posts or where he went with them. When folks start injecting things like abortion protests and Iraq policy into a non related thread, I am inclined to try and bring it back. If shally wants to talk about those things, let him. We should focus on the point at hand.

To me, this is pretty cut and dried. The Pope said something that was fairly innocuous, but stupid just the same given the circumstances. So, the protest machine got started up in India, while the usual suspects in Egypt, Syria, Gaza, Lebanon, Pakistan, etc. missed the boat, I guess. Or this really wasn't that big a deal for them. Take your pick.

And for the record, it's not the administration that is spreading around about protests being paid for. There have been several different sources that I have read over the months that accept as much as commonplace in many of the aforementioned Middle Eastern places. People are cheap. Get about 10,000 of them out in the streets and al Jazeera films it and shows it. Next thing you know, you just bought yourself a whole bunch of importance. I can't argue the tactic, only that these "protests" are little more than superficially so.

[dukeuch]

I was under the impression that you were replying to my post. I haven't read all of shally's posts or where he went with them. When folks start injecting things like abortion protests and Iraq policy into a non related thread, I am inclined to try and bring it back. If shally wants to talk about those things, let him. We should focus on the point at hand.

To me, this is pretty cut and dried. The Pope said something that was fairly innocuous, but stupid just the same given the circumstances. So, the protest machine got started up in India, while the usual suspects in Egypt, Syria, Gaza, Lebanon, Pakistan, etc. missed the boat, I guess. Or this really wasn't that big a deal for them. Take your pick.

And for the record, it's not the administration that is spreading around about protests being paid for. There have been several different sources that I have read over the months that accept as much as commonplace in many of the aforementioned Middle Eastern places. People are cheap. Get about 10,000 of them out in the streets and al Jazeera films it and shows it. Next thing you know, you just bought yourself a whole bunch of importance. I can't argue the tactic, only that these "protests" are little more than superficially so.

OK, we are not so far apart here. Shally and my explorations into the "just like" realm are for alliterative purposes. I can understand why you would like more focus, but it's just an exapnsion of the specific point to a general thought process by these people.

I am not surprised at all that poor people will accept money to protest. Two points regarding that: Just becuase they are paid does not mean they are not truly pissed, although they might just be taking the money to say anything. Union protesters are often paid out of union coffers becuase if they strike, they don't otherwise get paid, can't feed their families, etc. Second point, that some people are "professionals' should not diminish the other's truly felt outrage. I think that in the case you brought up their outrage is misplaced, however I admit that I am not walking in their shoes, have not experienced whatever actual or percieved hardships they have faced, and still think it is strategically unconstructive to just say "they are nuts, let's ignore or ridicule them." You wouldn't ignore the rantings of a crazy person pointing a gun at you, would you, and it might not be the best idea to tell theat crazy person "I'm gonna kick your ass"?

Just my opinion.

[Spence]

I haven't read all of shally's posts or where he went with them. When folks start injecting things like abortion protests and Iraq policy into a non related thread, I am inclined to try and bring it back. If shally wants to talk about those things, let him. We should focus on the point at hand.Let me reiterate this point. We have a thread here on a very specific topic. Let's respect the thread Dave started and limit our discussion within this thread to that topic. If anyone wants to start a thread about abortion or other issues, feel free to do so. Do not feel free to insert these issues into this thread.

Keep your eye on the ball. The ball, in this case, is what the Pope said and the crazykookoobananas response to it.

[BurgundyNGold]

OK, we are not so far apart here. Shally and my explorations into the "just like" realm are for alliterative purposes. I can understand why you would like more focus, but it's just an exapnsion of the specific point to a general thought process by these people.

I am not surprised at all that poor people will accept money to protest. Two points regarding that: Just becuase they are paid does not mean they are not truly pissed, although they might just be taking the money to say anything.
Yeah, but it sure lessens the validity of their sentiment if they're going to be paid to perpetrate said sentiment.

Union protesters are often paid out of union coffers becuase if they strike, they don't otherwise get paid, can't feed their families, etc.
This really isn't a valid comparison at all. Union protestors have jobs that they are missing because they are picketing. The union is paying them BACK from dues that they have already paid into said coffers so that they can continue to afford to fight for their perceived rights.

Second point, that some people are "professionals' should not diminish the other's truly felt outrage. I think that in the case you brought up their outrage is misplaced, however I admit that I am not walking in their shoes, have not experienced whatever actual or percieved hardships they have faced, and still think it is strategically unconstructive to just say "they are nuts, let's ignore or ridicule them." You wouldn't ignore the rantings of a crazy person pointing a gun at you, would you, and it might not be the best idea to tell theat crazy person "I'm gonna kick your ass"?
They certainly have a right to protest. Well, maybe they do; it depends on the country I suspect. In any case, if vagrants and the unemployed are paid to protest (which is apparently quite commonplace) this does not mean that they do not feel strongly against whatever they are protesting against. As you state, these are not mutually exclusive sets of people. However, I think that paying the masses to protest can't help but to muddy the message.

I would also add that these are not college students protesting here, that I've seen at least. Vagrants and unemployed day laborers, which many of these are traditionally, usually have little if any formal education. And that would be 3rd world education, not US education. Given these conditions I have serious reservations about these hired "protestors" even understanding the relevance of the correlation between the Pope's words and those of a Byzantine emperor. In fact, I really think that most likely can't spell Byzantium let alone know what it was.