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View Full Version : Redskins Secondary Gets in Deep Trouble


OCSKINSFAN
10-05-2006, 12:52 AM
Wow. What an indictment by the Post of the Skins secondary/pass defense - sloppy tackling, poor coverage, miscommunication, and a limp pass rush. A statistical rating near the worst in the League and which would be worse but for dropped passes. Unfortunately, this assessment is accurate to this point in time. Any hopes for significant improvement soon (it really is unknown when Springs will return - it keeps looking further out)? If there is improvement, the Skins would move up the power ranking quickly as this appears to be their Achilles heel.

smoot
10-05-2006, 12:58 AM
huh?

link?

OCSKINSFAN
10-05-2006, 01:14 AM
huh?

link?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402076.html

PyroGenic
10-05-2006, 01:28 AM
I'm not too worried. It's just like what everybody says about an offense: it takes time for defensive players to gel and get used to what they're supposed to do. We have what... atleast 3 new starters in the secondary (so at all times, 50-60 percent of the guys in the backfield are new to the system... and on the same side of the field) and a new pass rushing threat in andre carter that needs to get used to his assignment as well. Remember, GW's defense is a complicated one and it should take time for the players to learn what to do in it --- although the missed tackles cannot be blamed on lack of knowledge of a system, hopefully excellent coaching comes into play and these problems are fixed promptly.

whistleandthumb
10-05-2006, 02:13 AM
I've only seen a few missed tackles, mostly by Arch, though he was spot on against the Jags. Rogers always tackles well, Wright's been okay, and you KNOW Sean isn't going to miss a hit.

As for the coverage... it's been bad. It improved last week, but not having one TRUE shut-down corner out there makes the secondary's job a lot harder... especially for a DC that likes to blitz a lot. If our front 4 can continue to pressure, like they did against the Jags, then we'll be okay. At least until Springs can come back.

HanburgerBum
10-05-2006, 03:25 AM
I'm not too worried. It's just like what everybody says about an offense: it takes time for defensive players to gel and get used to what they're supposed to do. We have what... atleast 3 new starters in the secondary (so at all times, 50-60 percent of the guys in the backfield are new to the system... and on the same side of the field) and a new pass rushing threat in andre carter that needs to get used to his assignment as well. Remember, GW's defense is a complicated one and it should take time for the players to learn what to do in it --- although the missed tackles cannot be blamed on lack of knowledge of a system, hopefully excellent coaching comes into play and these problems are fixed promptly.


Well, I am plenty worried. Who would have thought at this point that it's the offense carrying the defense?

The Skins had almost 500 yds of offense and barely beat a Jacksonville team not known for its prolific passing game. With the Giants and Colts (two of the best passing teams around) coming up two out of the next three weeks, Al Saunders better plan on averaging about 40 points a game for the forseeable future.

dabro
10-05-2006, 05:26 AM
I've only seen a few missed tackles, mostly by Arch, though he was spot on against the Jags. Rogers always tackles well, Wright's been okay, and you KNOW Sean isn't going to miss a hit.


Hate to disagree with you here, but everyone in the secondary includingST have missed tackles, which is exactly what is accounting for all the big plays. They are missing these tackles because they are out of position, and are then getting blocked by the opposition WRs as they attempt to compensate. We have serious problems there that I had hoped would be resolved with the return of Sean Springs. Now, the Post conjectures, he may not be back for several weeks!

hail2skins
10-05-2006, 07:36 AM
Every defense has missed tackles, that's going to happen and you have to accept it. Our issue with the Jags is that we blitzed a lot and got burned because we didn't get to the QB. A lot of folks here wanted our defense to be aggressive and they were last week so you should be happy. the result just wasn't what you expected.

Redskin4Life
10-05-2006, 08:08 AM
One series Sunday afternoon exposed every weakness in the Washington Redskins' secondary. All of the lingering problems ailing the defensive backs -- poor coverage, miscommunication, sloppy tackling -- were on display in one four-play, 82-yard, fourth-quarter drive, and the failures of the cornerbacks and safeties nearly undermined Washington's eventual overtime win.

...Wide receiver Reggie Williams split cornerback Carlos Rogers and safety Adam Archuleta for an immediate 47-yard gain. Leftwich was sacked, then tossed a screen pass that rookie tight end Marcedes Lewis carried for 31 yards, with no Redskin in sight. On the next play Williams again went over the middle, nestling between corner Kenny Wright and safety Sean Taylor for a 21-yard touchdown despite having his helmet dislodged by Taylor's hit. The drive took just 2 minutes 4 seconds off the clock and set the stage for overtime. Jacksonville scored 30 points despite rushing just 15 times for 33 yards.

This is CLASSIC. On that 4 play drive, couldn't be argued that Leftwich threw in some excellent throws in tight spots and got lucky he wasn't picked off... La Canfora is reaching a little to express a good point.

But I wish he would mention the fact that we've got an inexperienced secondary as far as this system. Due to key injuries, we're starting guys that should have had a couple of weeks playing garbage time before getting significant snaps... but in the end, I still think the team will benefit from these guys playing now.

vabeach_skinsfan
10-05-2006, 08:20 AM
Well, I am plenty worried. Who would have thought at this point that it's the offense carrying the defense?

The Skins had almost 500 yds of offense and barely beat a Jacksonville team not known for its prolific passing game. With the Giants and Colts (two of the best passing teams around) coming up two out of the next three weeks, Al Saunders better plan on averaging about 40 points a game for the forseeable future.

Yeah but the were mostly infamous for the 6'3" receivers which exploited our shorter DBs. I think we could do better on pass coverage, that is if we don't send the whole freaking house on a blitz on 3rd and long. Thats where the Jags took advantage of their passing game, baiscally when it was man on man coverage with no help.

RoanokeSkin
10-05-2006, 08:23 AM
I think we could do better on pass coverage, that is if we don't send the whole freaking house on a blitz on 3rd and long. Thats where the Jags took advantage of their passing game, baiscally when it was man on man coverage with no help.

I agree and have said in other threads .. with Springs out we have got to me more cautious about when we choose to send the Safety blitzes. With no over the top help our secondary is bad.

MONK_in_HOF
10-05-2006, 08:27 AM
Every defense has missed tackles, that's going to happen and you have to accept it. Our issue with the Jags is that we blitzed a lot and got burned because we didn't get to the QB. A lot of folks here wanted our defense to be aggressive and they were last week so you should be happy. the result just wasn't what you expected.

Dang you beat me to it. What he said. ;) We got burnt by our ineffective blitzes.

vabeach_skinsfan
10-05-2006, 08:47 AM
Dang you beat me to it. What he said. ;) We got burnt by our ineffective blitzes.

I thougth the D-line was doing a descent job on the pass rush. Andre did record his first sack, and the entire line was playing their butts off, which is why I was confused on why GW kept sending the heat. I was thinking we should leave the safeties 2 under for DB help, and just send 1 LB and let the line get to the QB.

But what do I know, I'm just a electronic technician.

OCSKINSFAN
10-05-2006, 09:02 AM
Dang you beat me to it. What he said. ;) We got burnt by our ineffective blitzes.

I agree with that. A couple of questions then. Are we telegraphing our blitzes? It seemed they were easily picked up. Second, since you don't need to blitz (certainly not frequently) when you get good pressure from your front 4, is that still weak? I think to this point in time it is. How much pressure from our front 4 would there be without the additional blitz rushers? Not a good choice - blitz = weak coverage, no blitz = no pressure. Best hopes are for Springs return (soon) and/or as discussed by others, improvement in the system by the new players (again soon and hopefully they have the talent to make this happen).

smoak
10-05-2006, 09:11 AM
I've only seen a few missed tackles, mostly by Arch, though he was spot on against the Jags. Rogers always tackles well, Wright's been okay, and you KNOW Sean isn't going to miss a hit.

As for the coverage... it's been bad. It improved last week, but not having one TRUE shut-down corner out there makes the secondary's job a lot harder... especially for a DC that likes to blitz a lot. If our front 4 can continue to pressure, like they did against the Jags, then we'll be okay. At least until Springs can come back.

WHAT!!!!??? Oh my goodness I have counted well over a dozen. We are not the same defense we were at the end of last season. Hopefully they come around b/c I am concerned.

redwolf1218
10-05-2006, 09:14 AM
from another article, a disturbing quote from Springs:

Gibbs said Springs's status remains unchanged. Springs hasn't played since the first preseason game Aug. 13 because of an abdominal tear. He has sounded alternately pessimistic and hopeful about his prospects. Yesterday, Springs was dour. "I want to see the statistics of guys who had a sports hernia and came back the same season," he said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100401721.html

Patrick
10-05-2006, 09:23 AM
Every defense has missed tackles, that's going to happen and you have to accept it. Our issue with the Jags is that we blitzed a lot and got burned because we didn't get to the QB. A lot of folks here wanted our defense to be aggressive and they were last week so you should be happy. the result just wasn't what you expected.

I think a lot of folks around here aren't happy unless we acheive perfection OR at least #1 ranking in every statistical category. AND that goes for the offense too. ........................ just give me the W and I'm happy - no matter how we get it!!!! ;)

shally
10-05-2006, 09:54 AM
I'm not too worried. It's just like what everybody says about an offense: it takes time for defensive players to gel and get used to what they're supposed to do. We have what... atleast 3 new starters in the secondary (so at all times, 50-60 percent of the guys in the backfield are new to the system... and on the same side of the field) and a new pass rushing threat in andre carter that needs to get used to his assignment as well. Remember, GW's defense is a complicated one and it should take time for the players to learn what to do in it --- although the missed tackles cannot be blamed on lack of knowledge of a system, hopefully excellent coaching comes into play and these problems are fixed promptly.

you are correct.. and the missed tackles are inexcusable.. they are not scheme related

shally
10-05-2006, 09:55 AM
from another article, a disturbing quote from Springs:

Gibbs said Springs's status remains unchanged. Springs hasn't played since the first preseason game Aug. 13 because of an abdominal tear. He has sounded alternately pessimistic and hopeful about his prospects. Yesterday, Springs was dour. "I want to see the statistics of guys who had a sports hernia and came back the same season," he said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100401721.html

so the question is, why did he wait for preseason to have it repaired ? and don't give me any bull that it just occurred, this has been lingering since at least last year

Meatsnack
10-05-2006, 11:42 AM
Our secondary has certainly been our achilles heel to date. It doesn;t seem to be related to one player, either. All of them seem to have contributed to a bad outcome.

Since the secondary was supposed to be a strength, what happened?

My thoughts are:
We are missing Clark more than any of us outside the locker room would have guessed. He seemed to always be on the same page as Sean.

Archuleta is taking some time to learn the defense. Sean Taylor didn't start until mid-season because he wasn't sound enough snap to snap. With Arch, we expected him to be too good too soon, I think. He will continue to improve.

Kenny Wright is in the same boat as Arch. I have been pretty aggravated with Kenny's play but he, too, has improved game to game. I think Kenny will be an asset at nickel by the time Springs returns.

Carlos is looking shakey at times and pretty good at times. I think he will be fine with more starts but it will, again, take time.

As a spot of good news, Rumph seems to be flourishing in an environment where people are waiting for you to succeed rather than to fail. I wait with interest to see where his capability plateaus.

Frankly, nothing about the Giants passing game scares me. Shockey has been covered man to man by Lamar marshall before with good results. Toomer is their best receiver but he seems to have lost a step this year. Plexiglas is big but relatively slow. Rumph or Rogers is big enough to handle him.

The Giant's passing game is predicated on play-action. If we contain Tiki, we will win. Eli cannot beat us on his own.

Meatsnack
10-05-2006, 11:45 AM
so the question is, why did he wait for preseason to have it repaired ? and don't give me any bull that it just occurred, this has been lingering since at least last year

Bad medical advice about recovery times? I worked in teaching hospitals for years and I can tell you that the number of indifferent or just plain scary MDs out there is just that, plain scary. And even the best, such as present company, are wrong from time to time.

I do wonder though, he had a relatively simple procedure to reattach a muscle. Then he strained his groin, supposedly. What's this about a sports hernia?

whistleandthumb
10-05-2006, 11:51 AM
WHAT!!!!??? Oh my goodness I have counted well over a dozen. We are not the same defense we were at the end of last season. Hopefully they come around b/c I am concerned.
I'm not at the games, obviously, so I can only see what is shown on TV. Counting the NFL Replay showing last night, I've now seen the game 3 times, and would be hard pressed to point out 12 missed tackles, and certainly KEY missed tackles. Every team has missed tackles in a game, so how arrogant of us if we think we're going to hit every single one. You may be right, but, again, I thought we tackled pretty okay the other night.

You're absolutely right in saying we aren't the same defense from last year, but I think that has more to do with our secondary's play, as we are consistently giving up big plays on 3rd down. Our defense can't get off the field, so, inevitably, there's going to be more scoring by the opposition.

Going back to the thread topic - our secondary is more in trouble because they can't cover anyone than they are for their lack of tackling.

RedskinsVision
10-05-2006, 12:24 PM
We have a very inexperienced secondary within Gregg Williams' defense. Sean Taylor's in his 3rd year and working with a brand new SS. Rogers is in his 2nd year and working with 2 new CB's. He's been thrust into the #1 role when he's still learning the nuances of this defense. Our #3 CB didn't come in til' later in training camp. I mean c'mon, Vernon Fox and Curry Burns are our backup safeties and Arch's head's still spinning trying to learn this defense. They'll get better with time. They won't be a great unit without Springs and Prioleau but they'll be effective, just not to be expected right now.

redskin_rich
10-05-2006, 12:34 PM
Bad medical advice about recovery times? I worked in teaching hospitals for years and I can tell you that the number of indifferent or just plain scary MDs out there is just that, plain scary. And even the best, such as present company, are wrong from time to time.

I do wonder though, he had a relatively simple procedure to reattach a muscle. Then he strained his groin, supposedly. What's this about a sports hernia?
The muscle that was torn from the pelvic bone is what is considered a sports hernia.
Supposedly, Springs was fine all summer and into camp, then he started hurting again and was sent to a specialist that found the sports hernia. I'm not sure if he had it since last year or if it happened in camp.
When did John Hall have his surgery? He had a similar procedure and he seems to be doing better now.

Meatsnack
10-05-2006, 12:37 PM
The muscle that was torn from the pelvic bone is what is considered a sports hernia.
Supposedly, Springs was fine all summer and into camp, then he started hurting again and was sent to a specialist that found the sports hernia. I'm not sure if he had it since last year or if it happened in camp.
When did John Hall have his surgery? He had a similar procedure and he seems to be doing better now.

I had thought that hernias were intrusions through the peritoneal cavity or past the diaphragm? I had always heard this described as an abdominal muscle pulled away from the pelvis.

openallnight
10-05-2006, 12:41 PM
WHAT!!!!??? Oh my goodness I have counted well over a dozen. We are not the same defense we were at the end of last season. Hopefully they come around b/c I am concerned.
And that is only counting the ones on that TD by Williams last week.

This epidemic of missed-tackleitis has got to stop this week. Hopefully, Williams has them working an xtra hour a day on tackling drills and Tyer has an ample supply of antibiotics to shoot them up with before the game.

vabeach_skinsfan
10-05-2006, 12:43 PM
Our secondary has certainly been our achilles heel to date. It doesn;t seem to be related to one player, either. All of them seem to have contributed to a bad outcome.

Since the secondary was supposed to be a strength, what happened?

My thoughts are:
We are missing Clark more than any of us outside the locker room would have guessed. He seemed to always be on the same page as Sean.

Archuleta is taking some time to learn the defense. Sean Taylor didn't start until mid-season because he wasn't sound enough snap to snap. With Arch, we expected him to be too good too soon, I think. He will continue to improve.

Kenny Wright is in the same boat as Arch. I have been pretty aggravated with Kenny's play but he, too, has improved game to game. I think Kenny will be an asset at nickel by the time Springs returns.

Carlos is looking shakey at times and pretty good at times. I think he will be fine with more starts but it will, again, take time.

As a spot of good news, Rumph seems to be flourishing in an environment where people are waiting for you to succeed rather than to fail. I wait with interest to see where his capability plateaus.

Frankly, nothing about the Giants passing game scares me. Shockey has been covered man to man by Lamar marshall before with good results. Toomer is their best receiver but he seems to have lost a step this year. Plexiglas is big but relatively slow. Rumph or Rogers is big enough to handle him.

The Giant's passing game is predicated on play-action. If we contain Tiki, we will win. Eli cannot beat us on his own.

Realy great points, but another reason we're sufferring back there is the absence of Pierson Prioleau. He was supposed to be part of the nickel package and play safety on obvious passing situation, which is where Archuleta is vulnerable.

ddilbeck
10-05-2006, 12:47 PM
What I would like to know is where is Ade Jimoh? With all of the issues our secondary has been having I would think we would see him playing more. I know he struggled early but i think he really turned a corner last year. Does anyone know why he is not playing?

redskin_rich
10-05-2006, 12:51 PM
I had thought that hernias were intrusions through the peritoneal cavity or past the diaphragm? I had always heard this described as an abdominal muscle pulled away from the pelvis.
I think the term "Sports Hernia" gets used alot now whenever there is a muscle torn from the pelvic bone. There is no actual herniation and the term is probably incorrect but it is easier than saying "torn groin muscle from pelvic bone" or whatever. :)

Axegrinder
10-05-2006, 12:52 PM
I think a lot of folks around here aren't happy unless we acheive perfection OR at least #1 ranking in every statistical category. AND that goes for the offense too. ........................ just give me the W and I'm happy - no matter how we get it!!!! ;)
Thank you.
I'm satisfied and there was improvement,especially regarding penalties.

redskinz#1fan
10-05-2006, 01:36 PM
I really felt like this article was taking a shot at us...BIG Time! Yes our secondary has been the weak part of our defense this year, but look who we're playing without. Springs & PP mean a lot to this secondary. PP is gone for the year on a freak accident, and Springs is still a ?. When Springs comes back, we will see a totally different unit. Plus we have new people that are still trying to learn a new system. Poor tackling is just that....poor tackling, and there's no excuse for that! This unit will only improve over the course of the season, so I would rather them peak later then now. If we can continue to win, even with poor secondary play, then I will take it. This unit will become strong, because the coaches wouldn't have it any other way.

Now....why didn't he also point out that our "supposedly" bad offense just put up 36 points on a (Used to be) # 3 ranked D. The media was riding the Jags jock all the way up to this game, I guess they rode out on their :moon1: ..... because that is what got handed to them after that game with us! ;)

Syllable
10-05-2006, 01:50 PM
We have alot of new people in the secondary this year, it's going to take some time before they play the way we are accustomed too.

Meatsnack
10-05-2006, 03:16 PM
Realy great points, but another reason we're sufferring back there is the absence of Pierson Prioleau. He was supposed to be part of the nickel package and play safety on obvious passing situation, which is where Archuleta is vulnerable.

Good point, I completely overlooked Pierson and you're right, he was a big loss because he was a high quality role-player in addition to being a teams ace.

redwolf1218
10-05-2006, 10:14 PM
so the question is, why did he wait for preseason to have it repaired ? and don't give me any bull that it just occurred, this has been lingering since at least last year
i am just hoping he wont be out for the year. if so he might as well be on injured reserve. im holding out hope that he will return later, maybe after the bye.

bgforever
10-05-2006, 11:13 PM
Good point, I completely overlooked Pierson and you're right, he was a big loss because he was a high quality role-player in addition to being a teams ace.

Yes, lawdy. Add SS and PP to the equation, and it had monster all over it. We lost our PS player, Christian Morton, but not before Rumph is making his presence felt. I think Wright being thrown to the wolves, with Rogers tweaking that game of his, is also just in time!!!

I don't think we see SS until the Indy game anyway, so this is a great time to see just how intense our secondary can be without SS (for a division game that is). Dallass was too early, we weren't exactly jelled like we were the last two games. Our D Line waited on Salave'a to shore up the middle, and now they are all ready, as it gave our rookies, some playing time. (Golston, Montgomery, and Rocky on ST's).

MONK_in_HOF
10-06-2006, 08:17 AM
I agree with that. A couple of questions then. Are we telegraphing our blitzes? It seemed they were easily picked up. Second, since you don't need to blitz (certainly not frequently) when you get good pressure from your front 4, is that still weak? I think to this point in time it is. How much pressure from our front 4 would there be without the additional blitz rushers? Not a good choice - blitz = weak coverage, no blitz = no pressure. Best hopes are for Springs return (soon) and/or as discussed by others, improvement in the system by the new players (again soon and hopefully they have the talent to make this happen).

Those are my thoughts too. I actually felt they got more pressure with the down 4 then when they blitzed. Perhaps this is directly related to better coverage when only sending 4 and thus giving those linemen more time to get there.

As for the bolded part, that has seemed to be the case ever since preseason. It appears they are definitely telegraphing their blitzes. It is almost as if they want the offense to know who is coming. I think that can
be an effective tactic if the players who show blitz sometimes drop into coverage, but I have seen that very little. Usually the guys showing have come. Therefore I don't see how they are going to surprise or confuse offenses, thus making it much easier on the opponent, and much harder on our CBs.