Bill Clinton's legacy and the military

[IowaSkinsFan]

Since it has become a popular passtime in this forum to trash Bush & his administration, and since Spence, PSF and other members of the left will never voluntarily offer information freely and willingly about Bill Clinton, I thought I would point out some of the highlights of his Presidency and his overall committment to a strong military and seeing they are compensated accordingly.

In 1997, President Clinton, obviously trying to create more incentive for Americans to make a career in the military, reduced the pension at 20 years of service from 50% to 30%, meaning if you elect to retire from the armed forces after 20 years of service, your pension was reduced from 50% of your base pay to 30%. In the private sector, this is the equivalent of reaching retirement age thinking you were fully vested in your 401k or other retirement plan only to find out that you now must work 10 more years to get the same amount. Incidently, President Bush changed this back to 50% at 20 years.

Another pro-Military move by Clinton, in 1996, the military went 2 months without pay altogether as Clinton refused to sign the budget sent to him by both Houses of Congress. 2 months without pay may not mean much to the President who makes over 100K a year, but to a military family living on 18K year, what kind of hardships do you think that imposed?

Finally, I find it odd, and so do most members of the military that I talk to, that President Clinton, the Commander in Chief of the US Military and therefore the highest ranking member in the military, was immune to the UCMJ, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 134. Now Left Wingers will say that is was 2 consenting adults, but the military calls it adultery and it is, as Spence puts it, "Damn illegal." So why the President was immune to the punishment that the military requires is perplexing.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by robert11273

2 months without pay may not mean much to the President who makes over 100K a year, but to a military family living on 18K year, what kind of hardships do you think that imposed?



VERY GOOD POST ALL AROUND. But should we stoop to their level? After all, the democrats are famous for slinging mud. All in the name of election too. Not to mention the discretions they cover up and don't speak of when their chosen one blunders.

By the way, I'm not sure, but didn't clinton raise the presidents salary from 250k to 500k??? (I know the president can't actually raise it himself, but I believe Clinton did propose this and there was little resistance....don't forget, CLinton gets tons of money from speaking engagements, and of course one of his favorite past times was to "RENT" out the white house. Another illegal move.

[IowaSkinsFan]

I actually have no idea how much the President makes, I just thought it was ironic that a man who doesn't have to worry about money cutting off the lifeline of families in the military. He probably blamed it on the Republican controlled Congress for sending him a budget he "couldn't sign."

I understand you point about not slinging mud and stooping to their level, but these are just some of the facts of the Clinton presidency, plus I didn't insult anyone, call him a childish name or any of the things that seem to routinely happen to Republicans on this site.

[PennSkinsFan]

Robert---Do not label me "left". I am not left, in fact, i cionsider my self, Moderate or Centrist.

I will nto defend Bush when i believe he is wrong, nor will I defend Bill Clinton when i believe he was wrong, which was often. But, I am not a right wing conservative freak that believes if you speak one thing against Bush, you are a commie, fool. I happen to enjoy my Freedom of Speech that is outlined in the US Constitution. I realize in certain countries, like North Korea and China, that you can not speak out against teh government or you will face death, injury, or harassment. I hope American is not becoming that way with the dangerous right wingers.

To address two Presidents for you:

George W. Bush: Bush handled the Spetemebr 11th issue with grace, compassion, and leadership. I give him credit for a job well done. My differences with Bush come over his economic policies, his defecit spending, and his tax cuts that continue to lower income while we are setting record defecits. Second, I disagreed with Iraq, simply because Al Queda has nto been defeated and in fact, as witrnessed with the recent bombing in Baghdad, are re-thriving, re-emerging, and gaining strength as we speak. Why? because we did not finish the job. It is like this nation has become ADD, we can not remain on taks, we can focus on one issue at a time. Fact is, Bin Laden is free, Bin Laden is growing, and American risk of terrorism has not been decreased, if anything, it may be increased. Thirdly, Bush has refused to take a tough stand against a bigger tyrant than Hussein, which is North Korea. So, though i am one that is glad to see Huessein fall, we did it at the expense of allowing Al Queda time to regroup and focus.

Bill Clinton: My credit for Bill Clinton was the economy. Duiring his tenure we were in good economic times with suirpluses for the first tiem in nealry three decades. Yes, yes, yes, yes, conservatives will say that those wer epolciies of previous Presidents, that si America, for soem reason, whether we are REP or DEM we can not give credit to the current administration. However, his personal shortcomings were embarassing and his lies suck him even lower. Did he deserve what he got? probably. If your gonna fool around, do you have to do it in the friggin Oval Office for God Sakes????/ As far as Serbia/Kosovo, I believe Clinton did not act quick enough to defend muslims in Kosovo, and even though we went in, kicked ass, and helped them out, it left a bad taste in Muslim eyes for us, because we took so long to help. I am not liek the liberal left wing, i wont stand here and defend Clinton's personal actions. They were wrong, he was wrong, and his stature suffered because of it.


So, no i do not blindly defend REP presidents or DEM ones, i call it like i see it. You may disagree with me, i hope you do, that is the beauty of free thought. My opinion, Bush has not doen a good job and we will find out in 2004 if he the majority of Americans believe he has. Current indication showing plummeting support. He knows it, his staff has acknowledged "not so good" number, so now is the chance to see what President Bush is made of. Can he excel and recpature the strength he had post 9/11. Time will tell.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Originally posted by PennSkinsFan
Second, I disagreed with Iraq, simply because Al Queda has nto been defeated and in fact, as witrnessed with the recent bombing in Baghdad, are re-thriving, re-emerging, and gaining strength as we speak.

I think this bombing has been attributed to a different terrorist group located in Iraq. The Washington Times is reporting that the FBI has determined that the bomb was a hodge podge of left over munitions from the Hussein regime and was very randomly constructed on the flat bed trailer, thus leading to speculation that it is old military loyal to Hussein who carried out the bombing. The alternative theory is that the terrorist group Ansar al-Islam, the al Qaeda-linked fighters, did this job.

I am curious though, since you think al Qaeda performed this job, were they in Iraq before or after the fall of Hussein?

At any rate, thanks for stopping by and dropping a reply on my thread.

No more labels for you.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by robert11273
I actually have no idea how much the President makes, I just thought it was ironic that a man who doesn't have to worry about money cutting off the lifeline of families in the military. He probably blamed it on the Republican controlled Congress for sending him a budget he "couldn't sign."

I understand you point about not slinging mud and stooping to their level, but these are just some of the facts of the Clinton presidency, plus I didn't insult anyone, call him a childish name or any of the things that seem to routinely happen to Republicans on this site.

You definitely have a point. Defending (which includes showing others the error of thier way) is one thing, mud slinging (a practice often used by the dems) is another.
Preach on brother!

[IowaSkinsFan]

Originally posted by PennSkinsFan
Robert---Do not label me "left". I am not left, in fact, i cionsider my self, Moderate or Centrist.

I will nto defend Bush when i believe he is wrong, nor will I defend Bill Clinton when i believe he was wrong, which was often. But, I am not a right wing conservative freak that believes if you speak one thing against Bush, you are a commie, fool. I happen to enjoy my Freedom of Speech that is outlined in the US Constitution. I realize in certain countries, like North Korea and China, that you can not speak out against teh government or you will face death, injury, or harassment. I hope American is not becoming that way with the dangerous right wingers.

I consider myself a conservative and therefore, by definition, a right winger...so am I by your definition...dangerous? Please see above.

[jsarno]

I will agree with one point PSF makes about the fact that Bush keeps giving money away. I agreed with the tax cut a few years ago. Now he just gave an extra $400 per child back this year. WHAT FOR?
I like Bush, and agree with MOST of his decisions, but that one still puzzles me.
The sad part is, the democrats have blasted Bush so much that they set themselves up in a beautifully strategic place. If the country is attacked again, Bush will be blamed. But all the prevention of attacks will go unnoticed. (which is what Bush is doing an outstanding job of) Bush is in a no win situation and the Dems put him there. Even if Bush were to pull back all troops, he'll be labelled a quitter.

Back to Clinton though. It still amazes me how many laws Clinton broke, and not only do people praise him, they forgot all he did. I'm still appauled about his "renting" of white house rooms. Of course he had excuses for that, but that house belongs to WE THE PEOPLE. He should not make private gains from it. How he wasn't kicked out of office is beyond me. I wonder if it's even possible at this point for ANY president to ever get kicked out?

[PennSkinsFan]

Originally posted by robert11273
I think this bombing has been attributed to a different terrorist group located in Iraq. The Washington Times is reporting that the FBI has determined that the bomb was a hodge podge of left over munitions from the Hussein regime and was very randomly constructed on the flat bed trailer, thus leading to speculation that it is old military loyal to Hussein who carried out the bombing. The alternative theory is that the terrorist group Ansar al-Islam, the al Qaeda-linked fighters, did this job.

I am curious though, since you think al Qaeda performed this job, were they in Iraq before or after the fall of Hussein?

At any rate, thanks for stopping by and dropping a reply on my thread.

No more labels for you.

Nope, not true, Al Quedas fingerprints all over this.

from CNN:
Pentagon officials say a terror group linked to al Qaeda is emerging as a top suspect in the deadly blast at U.N. headquarters in Baghdad on Tuesday. U.S. officials said intelligence reports in the past two weeks indicated the group Ansar al-Islam might be planning a major attack in Iraq, and a top U.S. official in the country also said he suspects the group could have launched Tuesday's strike that killed at least 20 people.


I do nto believe many Al Queda if any, were inside Iraq months ago. I think they are streanming, well actually puring in now, because this is a great opportunity to kill American servicemana nd pick them off easily and at will.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by robert11273
I consider myself a conservative and therefore, by definition, a right winger...so am I by your definition...dangerous? Please see above.

(I know this is not directed at me, but I wanted to comment)

I do my best to not label others other than saying dems, or reps. That is just to make a point and catagorize. I do not believe in left wing or right wing. Or being called a liberal or conservative. Each point should be addressed seperately, and sometimes I take the conservative view, some times I take the liberal view. That's why I think there should be no parties, or anything that seperates us. We are constantly grouping one another. (upper class / lower class, white / black, democrat / republican etc) It's amazing after all these years that we still can't just keep and open mind, we still rely on labels. i guess we'll never learn. It must be human nature or something.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Originally posted by PennSkinsFan
Nope, not true, Al Quedas fingerprints all over this.

from CNN:
Pentagon officials say a terror group linked to al Qaeda is emerging as a top suspect in the deadly blast at U.N. headquarters in Baghdad on Tuesday. U.S. officials said intelligence reports in the past two weeks indicated the group Ansar al-Islam might be planning a major attack in Iraq, and a top U.S. official in the country also said he suspects the group could have launched Tuesday's strike that killed at least 20 people.


I do nto believe many Al Queda if any, were inside Iraq months ago. I think they are streanming, well actually puring in now, because this is a great opportunity to kill American servicemana nd pick them off easily and at will.

Here's the link that implicates Ansar al-Islam.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20030820-112706-9048r.htm

[IowaSkinsFan]

Originally posted by jsarno
(I know this is not directed at me, but I wanted to comment)

I do my best to not label others other than saying dems, or reps. That is just to make a point and catagorize. I do not believe in left wing or right wing. Or being called a liberal or conservative. Each point should be addressed seperately, and sometimes I take the conservative view, some times I take the liberal view. That's why I think there should be no parties, or anything that seperates us. We are constantly grouping one another. (upper class / lower class, white / black, democrat / republican etc) It's amazing after all these years that we still can't just keep and open mind, we still rely on labels. i guess we'll never learn. It must be human nature or something.

What's that old saying, birds of a feather, flock together. It's more than human nature, it instinctual, to group together with people you identify with, based on beliefs and feelings.

[PennSkinsFan]

I agree. I guess at some pointthen, we line up militarily against Saudi Arabia. Lets not treat countries differently. Lets get that report on 9/11 released and let the American people see the flocks that are together.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Originally posted by PennSkinsFan
Nope, not true, Al Quedas fingerprints all over this.

from CNN:
Pentagon officials say a terror group linked to al Qaeda is emerging as a top suspect in the deadly blast at U.N. headquarters in Baghdad on Tuesday. U.S. officials said intelligence reports in the past two weeks indicated the group Ansar al-Islam might be planning a major attack in Iraq, and a top U.S. official in the country also said he suspects the group could have launched Tuesday's strike that killed at least 20 people.


I do nto believe many Al Queda if any, were inside Iraq months ago. I think they are streanming, well actually puring in now, because this is a great opportunity to kill American servicemana nd pick them off easily and at will.

Here is the exact quote from that link that implicates Ansar al-Islam. It also notes they have ties to al-Qaeda througout the years, although they were probably never oficially in Iraq!

L. Paul Bremer III, the chief U.S. administrator for Iraq, suggested in televised interviews that international terrorists, rather than the pro-Saddam loyalists presumed responsible for most attacks on U.S. forces, were the main culprits in the truck bombing. "We have clear indications of quite a number of terrorists from the terrorist group Ansar al-Islam, a group that has had connection with al Qaeda through the years," he said

[jsarno]

Originally posted by PennSkinsFan
I agree. I guess at some pointthen, we line up militarily against Saudi Arabia. Lets not treat countries differently. Lets get that report on 9/11 released and let the American people see the flocks that are together.

America just has too many pans in the fire. We are upset with too many countries.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by robert11273
What's that old saying, birds of a feather, flock together. It's more than human nature, it instinctual, to group together with people you identify with, based on beliefs and feelings.

I don't beleive in that quote, because even in the wild, there will be cast aside babies that are taken in by another species as their own.
We human truly are the ones that do this the most with adoption and interracial marriages and such, but the wild does it as well.

I guess I'm a loner then...a rebel. :lol1:

[Skinzaholic]

Originally posted by jsarno
Now he just gave an extra $400 per child back this year. WHAT FOR?




Obviously Jsarno, you dont have kid of your own... that $400 refund was needed by many families due to a struggling economy.

[jsarno]

There are some points I'd like to make to the "Bush haters" here.
First off, do you remember BEFORE Bush took office he made a speech about how the country is in a recession and he would do his best to help it, but it would be tough to reverse it at that point???? If Clinton did such a good job, how come the country went into a recession BEFORE bush took office ???(or was Bush a psychic). This clearly shows Clinton as the problem to this economy. What he did I am uncertain of, no one probably knows exactly what he did to skrew up the economy, but none the less, Clinton is responsible.
Second, most of you seem to forget that the stock market was plummeting at the end of Clinton's term. The economy sucked before Bush took over. The stock market proves this, Bush was handed a mess and He's done a damn good job trying to clean it up.
Third. Those who talk about this "war", did you know that 42 of 55 most wanted men have been captured and or killed by the "Bush administration"? That clearly shows me that the world is a safer place, and this country is a safer place. So what was that you were saying about our great president?

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Skinzaholic
Obviously Jsarno, you dont have kid of your own... that $400 refund was needed by many families due to a struggling economy.

No, I don't...but even if I did I would still see it that way. A few years back Bush gave people with children a break then....and then he added a law that gave then a little extra....then he went OVER THE TOP and gave ANOTHER $400.
I'm all for tax breaks, but that went too far. You don't have kids for the tax break (at least you shouldn't), if you are responsible enough to have them, you need to be responsible enough to pay for them without a tax break. Get a second job if it's that tight. Part time night jobs are always available.
You may see that as rude, but I don't have kids because I've been responsible for years, and if I had them, and somehow got into a worse financial situation, then I would make sure my kids were taken care of. The $400 each was a waste of money.

[hamptonskinsfan]

Originally posted by jsarno
No, I don't...but even if I did I would still see it that way. A few years back Bush gave people with children a break then....and then he added a law that gave then a little extra....then he went OVER THE TOP and gave ANOTHER $400.
I'm all for tax breaks, but that went too far. You don't have kids for the tax break (at least you shouldn't), if you are responsible enough to have them, you need to be responsible enough to pay for them without a tax break. Get a second job if it's that tight. Part time night jobs are always available.
You may see that as rude, but I don't have kids because I've been responsible for years, and if I had them, and somehow got into a worse financial situation, then I would make sure my kids were taken care of. The $400 each was a waste of money.
problem with your solution here jsarno is that you say that if you are short on money you should get a second job. what if you are in the military and stationed on a ship. do you know a lot and i do mean a lot of military members try to get second jobs but only the higher enlisted man can keep them because they have a say as to when they pull duty, have to stay late, etc.etc. while i was in i worked two jobs and would leave my house at roughly 5:30 a.m. get off from there on a good day at 5:00 p.m. get home change, eat and shower and be at my second job by 6:30. there i would work until 1 to 2 am and finally get to bed around 2:30. i tryed that for 3 months and then 9/11 happened and the bases went crazy. individual checks of POV's left me leaving my house at 4 am. and then you have more watches during duty, so when was i suppose to sleep. i ended up wrecking my vechicle because i fell asleep at the wheel all in the name of the dollar so i could keep my head above water. yes i have 3 kids, which brings up another concern.... daycare. to watch my three kids (one of which is only after school) i have to pay $300 a WEEK. so any job that pays less than $9 hr would all go toward daycare. no extra spending money all daycare. that is why my wife stayed home while i went to work. so the extra $1200 i got for my kids helped keep me afloat and i was able to get the plumbing in my house done( Funny thing is, as a young man i worked as a plumbers helper but with my work schedule and now school schedule i was unable to do this myself)
another good point was brought up earlier about when Clinton stopped our pay for two months. i had over 3 grand in savings at that time but that was demolished during that 2 month period, and then some.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by hamptonskinsfan
problem with your solution here jsarno is that you say that if you are short on money you should get a second job. what if you are in the military and stationed on a ship. do you know a lot and i do mean a lot of military members try to get second jobs but only the higher enlisted man can keep them because they have a say as to when they pull duty, have to stay late, etc.etc. while i was in i worked two jobs and would leave my house at roughly 5:30 a.m. get off from there on a good day at 5:00 p.m. get home change, eat and shower and be at my second job by 6:30. there i would work until 1 to 2 am and finally get to bed around 2:30. i tryed that for 3 months and then 9/11 happened and the bases went crazy. individual checks of POV's left me leaving my house at 4 am. and then you have more watches during duty, so when was i suppose to sleep. i ended up wrecking my vechicle because i fell asleep at the wheel all in the name of the dollar so i could keep my head above water. yes i have 3 kids, which brings up another concern.... daycare. to watch my three kids (one of which is only after school) i have to pay $300 a WEEK. so any job that pays less than $9 hr would all go toward daycare. no extra spending money all daycare. that is why my wife stayed home while i went to work. so the extra $1200 i got for my kids helped keep me afloat and i was able to get the plumbing in my house done( Funny thing is, as a young man i worked as a plumbers helper but with my work schedule and now school schedule i was unable to do this myself)
another good point was brought up earlier about when Clinton stopped our pay for two months. i had over 3 grand in savings at that time but that was demolished during that 2 month period, and then some.

Problem with this logic is that it wasn't just for military personel. It was for the entire country. I would not make such a comment for military personel.
Also, while the $400 per probably did "help" you at that time, it is in no way a fix, and our country is in bad shape. Just because you have kids, doesn't mean you should be given special treatment.
This country was not meant to take care of each person. You need to take care of yourself, and your children without the country. Every decision you make affects you in some way. You chose to either go back to school, or have children before you were fully schooled. You chose to have 3 children. You chose to drive that night that you crashed even though you were tired and should not have been driving. You chose to (by your story) overwhelm yourself. This is not a slam on you, but I hear these "I have to do this and that" stuff, and people don't seem to realize that you got yourself into this. The country doesn't need to get you out. Right now, it does. I hope some day that will change. I don't like my money going to people who make poor choices or overwhelm themselves. The people who make conscious efforts to live on their own and make correct choices, and be responsible (not saying you were irresponsible) are the ones that get punished in these terms. If you're going to do something for the country, do it for all. Not a select group.

[hamptonskinsfan]

problem with it is I did have to, to make ends meet. The military (contrary to popular belief) does not pay well at all. so were is the choice??? yes i chose to defend my country so therefore i should be handed chicken scratch for money and scrounge to make ends meet??? I'm sorry, but if the military paid half of what the going market for what i am (an Electronics tech with a specialization in Calibration) then i would agree with you, but they dont and will never pay. i'm sorry if in my original post that i misled you but i am no longer in the military but i am in fact a disabled veteran, and as far as schooling goes, if you notice in my original post i am doing just that. Going to work in the morning and taking a full course load in the evenings. my AAS is gonna be in computer engineering. I'm sorry but i was not given the opportunity to go to school after high school. i was living on the streets when i joined the military.There is NO choice when you live on the street at the age of 17. None, except work Joe Jobs. i thought i was doing better by joining the military and yes it took care of me to a point. I never once went on welfare even though i qualified for it throughout most of my 12 years in the military. That is the country taking care of someone not a refund from the government for a measley $1200. Speaking of which, you want to know the real bitch about being in the military??? You still have to pay taxes, no tax break (especially when clinton was in, we were actually penalized, See Sec. Q.) and yet what pays the militaries salaries???? you got it taxes, so in essence i paid my own freakin check to a point.Now i wasnt asking for any kind of tax break but damnit i'll take it, what was i suppose to do, send it back?? i dont think so. Another point, i guess what it boils down to is that only the RICH should have Children as they are the only ones that can truely support their kids without financial difficulties??? It is that kind of thinking that really is typical of rich, out of touch people. yes i was gonna be nice. I am also a Republican but you sound alot like my California livin, liberal as hell, nose up in the air so you cant smell us "Low lifes" DEMOCRAT brother in law! I know you are a republican but damn you have no compasion for those of use who didnt have all the advantages growing up as some people. You live in the dream world that no matter where you grew up or under what circumstances you came from you should be finacially set with a degree by the age of 25. i'm sorry but i'm 31 and still trying to find my feet because i HAD to go into the military. So let me guess, disabled veterans should not recieve any help either right???? so what if you have a problem getting around, you should still have an education, and make plenty of money from your wheelchair, right???? I'm sorry i agree that Pres. Bush is a great President but some of your views are down right selfish in nature. Just because you dont get it means that no one should. Yes i did make the choice to have children, and i do not for one minute appologize to you or anyone else for my decision. Hell, if i had "waited " untill i was fully schooled and had not been medically discharged from the military and stayed in for my 20 then i would have not started having kids until i was over 40. that means thatby the time my youngest (if i had held to the same spacing between kids,) my youngest would not be a legal adult until i was 71. yeah at that age i could really be a part of their life, you know change my depends before going out to play catch with my sons. as it stands now my youngest will be an adult when i am only 49. over 20 years difference there. As far as my choices in life you are 100 % right. i chose to have children young, i chose to sign my rights away so you could have the right to rant and rave about what other people chose, and i did chose to drive that night after i worked all day and much of the night. you are right but let me ask you this, if i had not worked that extra job, where would the extra money come from, should i have gone on welfare like some other military members do???? If you take a closer look at the pay raises by the military as opposed the cost of inflation you will notice that the military was left behind long ago. if you dont like your money going towards people that "make poor choices or overwhelm themselves." then maybe they should live off of welfare. therefore they are not "Overwhelming" themselves. You feel that you are being punished, i feel that you in time will get your just break. Enuff Said.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by hamptonskinsfan
problem with it is I did have to, to make ends meet. The military (contrary to popular belief) does not pay well at all. so were is the choice??? yes i chose to defend my country so therefore i should be handed chicken scratch for money and scrounge to make ends meet??? I'm sorry, but if the military paid half of what the going market for what i am (an Electronics tech with a specialization in Calibration) then i would agree with you, but they dont and will never pay.

You did CHOOSE to go into the military, and I'm sure out of high school you did not have that training (electronics tech)) like you do now. You probably would have never gotten that if not for the military. No they SHOULDN'T pay you the going rate, because they trained you. Your benefit comes when you get out, and have that training to fall back on. (let me respond to another point, before you go after that comment)

i am no longer in the military but i am in fact a disabled veteran, and as far as schooling goes, if you notice in my original post i am doing just that.

this is truely and inquirey, but how can you do that being disabled?

I'm sorry but i was not given the opportunity to go to school after high school.

I MADE myself that opportunity by working 2 jobs AND going to school full time. The former paid for the latter. I literally lived in the dorms and paid for them like rent. That got me off the streets and an education.

There is NO choice when you live on the street at the age of 17.

I know you honestly feel that way, and I'm sorry. But I don't believe that to be true. I'm living proof of it.

Now i wasnt asking for any kind of tax break but damnit i'll take it, what was i suppose to do, send it back?? i dont think so.

Never said you should give it back. They gave it to you, you deserved it. Good for you. I just totally disagree with him giving a 3rd cut to people with children. What? Are they the ONLY ones that have financial hardships? If I lost my job, I'd lose just about all I worked for. (of course I'd beat down other employers doors to get another job though) i had financial hardships all my life up until about 2 years ago. Now we are able to have a little left over each check. But I could have used a break too.

Another point, i guess what it boils down to is that only the RICH should have Children as they are the only ones that can truely support their kids without financial difficulties???
If you take away the sarcasm than YES. Only the financially ABLE should have children. Otherwise you're dooming that kid to a life of poverty. I think of my "future kids" first.

I know you are a republican but damn you have no compasion for those of use who didnt have all the advantages growing up as some people.

HAHAHAHA. First off, I am an independant, but do lean to the republican side. Second, I've been living on my own sicne I was freakin 13. I lived in a terrible town in Mass. called Lowell. I NEVER had good things. I lived quite often off the food from the good souls of the church. I had NO ADVANTAGES. NONE. I was beaten by my father for years, and when I was 16 I knocked his teeth out. I lived off hand me down clothes that the church provided as well, and damn good thing cause I'd be naked without them. So don't you or anyone give me your BS like that again. If you had ANY clue what I've gone throuhg to be where I am, I'd be getting a standing ovation not grief. I've worked my ass off, and if I can do it, anyone can.

with a degree by the age of 25.

BTW, I STILL don't have a degree. After 2 years of full time college and working 50 hours+ a week, i got burnt out and couldnt do it anymore. I got married and here I am at 28 still trying to find a real career. I've lived in my share of roach infested apartments for dirt cheap!

So let me guess, disabled veterans should not recieve any help either right???? so what if you have a problem getting around, you should still have an education, and make plenty of money from your wheelchair, right????

This makes me sad to hear, and appauled that you would think I thought this way. I have already answered a similar question on another thread about this, but I'll assume you didn't see it.
Disabled veterans should never work again, and the government shoud pay for their every expense. While they understand the risk of going in, they are disabled from it, and should be compensated. (they are not comp. because there is no money thanks to programs such as welfare and foodstamps.) You did a service to this country, and for that I am grateful. (not just blowing smoke up your ass either) I volunteer at a local nursing home and I help take care of war vets. Lots of times it's buying them breakfast and talking to them, and walking with them. I do this because I appreciate vets more so than any "talker" that you might run across.

but some of your views are down right selfish in nature.

No, they REEK of self responsibility. If you had extra money to give to your kids, would you give that money to just one, or all three. (I hope it would be all three) This is the same way I see the gov. They should have divided that check up amoungst EVERY tax paying citizen. After all WE ALL paid into it. Not just the people with kids. In fact, teh people with kids PAY LESS into taxes than the ones without. So how is that selfish? You pay less in, but should get more out? That sound like the selfish view.

Just because you dont get it means that no one should.
Just because you have children doesn't make you more special that you deserve it more. We are all equal, and we all pay in to this thing we call taxes, and I pay MORE taxes than most.

Yes i did make the choice to have children, and i do not for one minute appologize to you or anyone else for my decision.
no one is looking for an apology. But when you start the "poor me" stuff, then understand how you got there. If you don't want to apologize for having kids, don't use them as an excuse to bitch.

you are right but let me ask you this, if i had not worked that extra job, where would the extra money come from,
not my problem, that's yours from the decisions you made. Don't you get it? Others seem to miss this point too. EVERYTHING you do has a consequence. When I working those crazy hours and going to school full time, I never fell asleep at the wheel. You could have killed someone. What if you did? Would you be sitting here trying to justify it? I would hope not. You could have taken a life of another father, or whole family who were trying to make ends meet. You already said it was your choice to have them. Then it's your choice to take careof them 100%, not 90% or 50%. (not saying you are under 100%, just making a point)

if you dont like your money going towards people that "make poor choices or overwhelm themselves." then maybe they should live off of welfare. therefore they are not "Overwhelming" themselves.

You still miss the point. Why are they overwhelmed? If there was no welfare to fall back on, do you think they would sit back and do nothing, or go flip burgers or something of the sort? I hvae to tell you, it makes me sick to look in the paper week in and week out and se the SAME jobs in there. McDonalds, Subway, general laborer, Burger King, waitress / waitor, nursing aids. (requiring NO experience) EVERY WEEK those are in about every newspaper across the country. Yet those on welfare or food stamps are too good to go get those jobs. I'VE SEEN THIS WITH MY OWN TWO EYES. I've seen these people that were living better than me, better house, better cars, better clothes, hand me foodstamps (when I worked for Schwans) instead of money. How in the f--- is that possible? I've lived it, I've seen it. Which is more than I can say for most on this site or across the country.
I work hard for every single dollar I make, and believe me, I'm FAR from rich. I come from a democrat background. ALL my family is like this. Hell they worshipped the kennedy's, nuff said there. I broke away because I saw mainly excuses. Republicans / independants don't like to use excuses as much as democrats. The democrats have an excuse for everything including why the gov. should take care of me instead of me taking responsibility for myself. It's sickening to me. Of course not all of you will agree with me. And that's fine. I know I'm the minority. I understand that others will never be as responsible as I am. And that's fine. Just don't expect me to pay for YOUR choices. That's what gets me.
(please note that a lot of the ME's / YOU'S are generalizations, not YOU personally.) Believe it or not, I respect you for your willingness to work hard (from what I've read and concluded). I can't express enough thanks to you for fighting for this country. The fact that you are disabled because of it, and not taken care of almost brings a tear to my eye, that is how deeply I feel for you in this case. My beef is not with you as much as it is with the general public / country. Trust me, no one is immune from my responsibility speech, not even me. When I feel down on myself, I remind myself that my choices got me here. It's just excuses fly around here for actions that they did, and why they did it. Does it really matter? We all know the government was not put in place to take care of us. Imagine yourself in the early 1800's and ask yourself who would bail you out. Why we do it now is beyond me.

[hamptonskinsfan]

You did CHOOSE to go into the military, and I'm sure out of high school you did not have that training (electronics tech)) like you do now. You probably would have never gotten that if not for the military. No they SHOULDN'T pay you the going rate, because they trained you. Your benefit comes when you get out, and have that training to fall back on. (let me respond to another point, before you go after that comment) ok we both agree that i got my training though the military but again should i be paid peanuts for 20 years and THEN think about a family??? like i stated in my previous post, i have done the math and my youngest child would not be out of the home until i was 71!!! how can you say that is giving your child the best??? yes financially that is true but finacial is not the only part of raising a child. When you join the military you do not get paid hourly, you are paid a salary for however many hours you work. period. and trust me when i tell you the government gets every hour they can out of you. especially when you are in a technical field as i was. Reason for that is because most people get out after their first hitch, while some of us try to get the retirement pay.
this is truely and inquirey, but how can you do that being disabled?
i have a degenerative disorder in my hip caused by the military misdiagnosing and mistreating an injury to that area, not to mention, asthma, bad back, bad knees, bad ankles plus others. Now I can still walk but certain days i have real problems getting out of bed. that being said, my disablities do not limit my ability to think and write for school purposes. if i have to i take my crutches and wooble my ass to class, pop a couple motrins and deal with it while i learn. it is really not that hard.
I MADE myself that opportunity by working 2 jobs AND going to school full time. The former paid for the latter. I literally lived in the dorms and paid for them like rent. That got me off the streets and an education.
and to that i appluad you for your determination and effort. but the time i entered the military we were in a recession also and the best way to get training was the military. i took some college courses while in the military but not enough for a degree. not enough time, especially when i was aboard ships, it was nothing to pull a 20 hour shift if need be to repair the vital systems of the ship.
If you take away the sarcasm than YES. Only the financially ABLE should have children. Otherwise you're dooming that kid to a life of poverty.
I think of my "future kids" first.
I'll leave this one as too it is obvious you priorities and mine are different, and no one will budge on this subject. Everyone is different and has a different story to tell, therefore one's motives are different from another's. Please do not think this another "Poor me" special but my real father passed away when i was only 8 years old (i am thankful that i at least got that much time with him as my younger brother was not even a year old at the time of his death), therefore i had pretty much one goal in life, to carry on his name and if by chance i did pass away at a young age, my children would at least know me. As soon as i was financially on my feet ( i say that in the liberalist of terms) my wife and i decided to have children. this was not only a decision about priorities but also a fiancially sound idea seeing as how the military does pick up 90% of the tab for Child birth. i saved roughly $5000 per child doing it this way, as opposed to if i had waited until i was out of the military.
HAHAHAHA. First off, I am an independant, but do lean to the republican side. Second, I've been living on my own sicne I was freakin 13. I lived in a terrible town in Mass. called Lowell. I NEVER had good things. I lived quite often off the food from the good souls of the church. I had NO ADVANTAGES. NONE. I was beaten by my father for years, and when I was 16 I knocked his teeth out. I lived off hand me down clothes that the church provided as well, and damn good thing cause I'd be naked without them. So don't you or anyone give me your BS like that again. If you had ANY clue what I've gone throuhg to be where I am, I'd be getting a standing ovation not grief. I've worked my ass off, and if I can do it, anyone can.
Firstly i appologize for the misinterpertation of your politiacal party. secondly i DO understand more than you know about the hardships of living on the streets. My step father finally ( after years of leaving/or getting kicked out/ locked away in institutions because i would physically attempt to mame the SOB) permenatly kicked me out of the house at age 17. i know about abuse, while living at home my step father would not only lock us out of the house until he got home from work, but would also lock the food closet and even found a way to lock the refrigerator. i had to take showers outside everynight with a damn garden hose. and i havent even begun to talk about the verbal and physical abuse i endured while trying to protect my younger siblings. I KNOW ABOUT ABUSE. the day i was told to leave, i left the man with a cracked rib and bruised two others.

i understand this as i too work full time, go to school full time in the evenings and still find time to coach my oldest in football and in baseball. after only two semesters i feel the strain of burn out, but i have to keep reminding myself that in the end it will be worth it.
QUOTE]This makes me sad to hear,..... [/QUOTE]
As a disabled vet i appreciate your willingness to help my fellow servicemembers. and i fully agree with your assesment with welfare and foodstamps. as far as never working again, i personally would go freakin nuts if i didnt work, it's just not in my nature to sit back and live off of others. lastly i am sorry that i misunderstood your feelings towards us.
[You pay less in, but should get more out? That sound like the selfish view.

Maybe in "montly taxes" but i pay more everytime i go to the grocery store, or stop to get the kids mcdonalds, or more in taxes yearly for the bigger house i have to have to accomidate my children. in the long run i would say parents do pay more in taxes than that of non parents.
no one is looking for an apology. But when you start the "poor me" stuff, then understand how you got there. If you don't want to apologize for having kids, don't use them as an excuse to bitch.
i was not saying "poor me" i was stating an argument as to why not only the rich should have children. as i stated above this is one of your priorities are not that of mine and i will leave it at that.
not my problem, that's yours from the decisions you made
you still did not answer how i was to supplement my income to compensate for the low wages of the military. Trust me i not only thought about the loss of others but what it would have done to my children( See above about my real father). that is why i gave up my second job within two weeks after the accident.
Imagine yourself in the early 1800's and ask yourself who would bail you out. Why we do it now is beyond me.
in all honesty, you would not need to be "Bail us out" cause in the early 1800's you did not need money as much as you do now. you lived off the land, grew your own vegetables and fruits, hunted your own meat and did not particularly need a JOB. this is obviously a difference of region as in the north it was more industrialized while here in the south we were agricultural. [/QUOTE] i am sorry we disagree but again i think this is more a difference in both region and upbringing. neither one is right or wrong, it is just a difference of opinion. enuff said( lol my fingers cant take much more of these rebuttals lol)

[jsarno]

Originally posted by hamptonskinsfan
and i fully agree with your assesment with welfare and foodstamps.

that's the first time someone said that to me.
I complain about welfare etc because of things just like what you're going through. It's not fair you're not taken care of while others that do not deserve it are taken care of. This actually angers me, and it is shown on this site. (i live in one of the poorest states, and one of the poorest towns in america, soit hits closer to home than in other places, and why I've expressed my opinion in these discussions louder than others.)
I'm not the best at being diplomatic when I type. I'm a VERY mild mannered man, but I come across as an angry man on these sites. I don't know how to fix this either. All I can do is apologize for it. I am strongly opinionated about things, and if we(or anyone on this site) we're sitting down talking, no one would take me offensively. Only on this site do I get such negative vibes.

i am sorry we disagree but again i think this is more a difference in both region and upbringing. neither one is right or wrong, it is just a difference of opinion. enuff said( lol my fingers cant take much more of these rebuttals lol)

I'm very glad you told me of your situation. I have to admit, you have definitely changed my opinion of you from yourfirst post. I think we may agree more than we both think about some things, but you're right, neither of us will ever completely agree with the other. I do respect your opinion, I want you to know that.

I haven't told ANYONE this on this site, but I think you're a good man hamptonskinsfan. You're the kind of man that I associate with. If you're ever in the hell hole known as Carlsbad, let me buy you a beer or something. I think you'rethe kid of man I'd like to meet.

I do hope I did not offend you in any way while I was trying to make a point.

[hamptonskinsfan]

Originally posted by jsarno
that's the first time someone said that to me.
I complain about welfare etc because of things just like what you're going through. It's not fair you're not taken care of while others that do not deserve it are taken care of. This actually angers me, and it is shown on this site. (i live in one of the poorest states, and one of the poorest towns in america, soit hits closer to home than in other places, and why I've expressed my opinion in these discussions louder than others.)
I'm not the best at being diplomatic when I type. I'm a VERY mild mannered man, but I come across as an angry man on these sites. I don't know how to fix this either. All I can do is apologize for it. I am strongly opinionated about things, and if we(or anyone on this site) we're sitting down talking, no one would take me offensively. Only on this site do I get such negative vibes.

[b]

I'm very glad you told me of your situation. I have to admit, you have definitely changed my opinion of you from yourfirst post. I think we may agree more than we both think about some things, but you're right, neither of us will ever completely agree with the other. I do respect your opinion, I want you to know that.

I haven't told ANYONE this on this site, but I think you're a good man hamptonskinsfan. You're the kind of man that I associate with. If you're ever in the hell hole known as Carlsbad, let me buy you a beer or something. I think you'rethe kid of man I'd like to meet.

I do hope I did not offend you in any way while I was trying to make a point.
I appreciate the kind words and if i am ever in carlsbad i will look you up and on the same token if your ever in hampton look me up. i would really like to sit down some time and pick your brain about your views. i have been told that i am mild mannered but dont get me started lol. the sentiments about being a good man go right back atcha. i am man enough to realize (as you are) that not everyone is gonna see things my way. that is life. you did not offend me, kinda plucked a couple nerves but nothing serious and i damn sure dont hold it against you. you have your views as i have mine.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by hamptonskinsfan
I appreciate the kind words and if i am ever in carlsbad i will look you up and on the same token if your ever in hampton look me up.

I've never heard of the town of hampton...what state is that in?

PS- if you ever were here, you couldn't look me up. I have a private number and address. My work requires that I be kept private.

i would really like to sit down some time and pick your brain about your views.

a lot of my friends and family say I have a future in politics, and they would vote for me. I say I'd be assasinated before I ever took office because my views piss off a lot of people. I think I possibly could get into politics (especially with a little help from some of my fellow MENSA members), but I think I would be ushered out too quickly to be effective.

i have been told that i am mild mannered but dont get me started lol.

LOL, TOTALLY understand.

the sentiments about being a good man go right back atcha.

Thank you, I really appreciate that. Just so you know, I'm not working right now, I'm at home, and the ONLY reason I am on this site right now is to speak with you here,and that's the first time I've done that in my months and months of membership here. My wife doesn't appreciate me being online when I'm home since I work or golf too much.
(I can only do so much golf since I have a degenerative back condition)

i am man enough to realize (as you are) that not everyone is gonna see things my way. that is life. you did not offend me, kinda plucked a couple nerves but nothing serious and i damn sure dont hold it against you. you have your views as i have mine.

LOL, yeah, I'm good at plucking nerves!!! I personally think life is too short to write off people. We all have something to offer. Oh well.
Hell, this is just a web site, our opinions really don't matter other than personally anyway.
Have a good night...I'll see you on Tuesday for more "controversial" discussions! LOL

[hamptonskinsfan]

I've never heard of the town of hampton...what state is that in? Hampton is a city in southeastern Virginia. right across the river from Norfolk.
a lot of my friends and family say I have a future in politics, and they would vote for me. I say I'd be assasinated before I ever took office because my views piss off a lot of people. I think I possibly could get into politics (especially with a little help from some of my fellow MENSA members), but I think I would be ushered out too quickly to be effective.
every now and again you need someone who does not follow conventional wisdom to stir the pot so to speak. that is the only way things are changed is by one person having the "BALLS" to speak out. That being said, if you can go for it, i personally could never be a political figure ( To many skeletons in this here closet lol) but hey if you have the drive, determination, and most of all, backing, i say what the hell go for it. what could happen... you lose but in losing you may open a couple more people's eyes.
Thank you, I really appreciate that. Just so you know, I'm not working right now, I'm at home, and the ONLY reason I am on this site right now is to speak with you here,and that's the first time I've done that in my months and months of membership here. My wife doesn't appreciate me being online when I'm home since I work or golf too much.
ok now you did it, you made me feel guilty lol. i was too busy watching the game and teaching my son the ins and outs of football that i left this post for a little while only to find out you were waiting for me. i appologize for keeping you waiting but on the other hand it was truely a bonding experience between my son and myself as today was also my son's first football game. i took tonight to show him what it takes to be a football player (i.e. the disipline of an offensive lineman, he got called today twice for false start) and to order a pizza and "hang out".
LOL, yeah, I'm good at plucking nerves!!! I personally think life is too short to write off people. We all have something to offer. Oh well. Hell, this is just a web site, our opinions really don't matter other than personally anyway.
Have a good night...I'll see you on Tuesday for more "controversial" discussions! LOL
"Plucking Nerves" IMO is what gets people motivated. well hopefully i will see you on tuesday, dunno as of yet cause i start back at school on monday, and my schedule is pretty packed. but i will try to get back on. untill then take it easy.

[Spence]

Originally posted by jsarno
There are some points I'd like to make to the "Bush haters" here.
First off, do you remember BEFORE Bush took office he made a speech about how the country is in a recession and he would do his best to help it, but it would be tough to reverse it at that point???? If Clinton did such a good job, how come the country went into a recession BEFORE bush took office ???(or was Bush a psychic). This clearly shows Clinton as the problem to this economy. What he did I am uncertain of, no one probably knows exactly what he did to skrew up the economy, but none the less, Clinton is responsible.
JSARNO, you can defend Mr Bush's economic record if you like, but this is a flat-out falsehood. The economy did not go into recession during President Clinton's tenure. Not even Mr Bush claims that. This is not a debatable issue, it is a question of fact and you are factually wrong. In fact, I'd be willing to bet you don't even know the definition of a recession. You should before writing about the subject. Go look up the definition and then do a little research about economic growth in the first half of 2001. You won't like what you read, but at least you'll be wiser for it.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by hamptonskinsfan
Hampton is a city in southeastern Virginia. right across the river from Norfolk.

That must be a beautiful area!

every now and again you need someone who does not follow conventional wisdom to stir the pot so to speak. that is the only way things are changed is by one person having the "BALLS" to speak out.

I completely agree...however, hw often do you see someone like that succeed?

you lose but in losing you may open a couple more people's eyes.

And a WHOLE lot of money which I don't have! :D
Opening minds is what I would strive for anyway. But if I can't open minds on a web site, how would I do it to hundreds of thousands?

ok now you did it, you made me feel guilty lol.

Ah, nothing to feel guilty about. Kids / family come first.

(i.e. the disipline of an offensive lineman, he got called today twice for false start)

Is he just not paying attention to the snap count in the huddle? If he forgets, then he should react off the defensive player. (not recommended, but should help)

"Plucking Nerves" IMO is what gets people motivated. well hopefully i will see you on tuesday, dunno as of yet cause i start back at school on monday, and my schedule is pretty packed. but i will try to get back on. untill then take it easy.

You definitely have a point.
Good luck in your schooling.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Spence
JSARNO, you can defend Mr Bush's economic record if you like, but this is a flat-out falsehood. The economy did not go into recession during President Clinton's tenure. Not even Mr Bush claims that. This is not a debatable issue, it is a question of fact and you are factually wrong. In fact, I'd be willing to bet you don't even know the definition of a recession. You should before writing about the subject. Go look up the definition and then do a little research about economic growth in the first half of 2001. You won't like what you read, but at least you'll be wiser for it.

Maybe he said "going into", I know we weren't techincally in one, but we were heading that way. I am trying to find the speech now. This may take some time.
(it was said whether you remember it or not. It was brought to my attention then remembered when my DEMOCRATIC in laws brought it up) Bush knew / saw what Clinton had done, or the direction of the country and said it up front. That fact is not debatable. I will do my best to see if it was quoted on the web and paste it here for you to read. I'm not the best at finding things though since I do not have unimited time. (I will ask tehm if they can pin point the speech he gave this in, since I don't recall exactly when it was said)