Calling Out

[PennSkinsFan]

Whenever we lose, and for hat matter, whenever we will, there are the usual players that get called out for sub-performance. BUT, what about the ones that are not called out but deserve to be.

How about these guys:

MY DEFENSIVE TWO

1. DT Cornelius Griffin. How many times has his name been called? 15 tackles in 5 games. Where is his leadership this year? Double teamed? Who cares. He was double teamed his first year here and made a significant impact.

2. S Sean Taylor. Big time drop off in performance this year. His pass coverage has been more than suspect in 06. Play like a first rounder Sean!

MY OFFENSIVE TWO

1. OT Jon Jansen. Why the drop off Jon? Got your paycheck and now satisfied? Come on man, step up up or maybe we should look for different direction.

2. Joe Gibbs. You brought in saunders. You brought in big time Wrs for Big Time money, yet, Lloyd has a measley 5 catches and Randel El is abotu as under-used as anyone. Duckett ring a bell? Maybe GM Joe should not jump the gun and be a bit patient. Where was Betts? We were successful by havign a oen tow punch with Portis and Betts, yet Betts managed one carry????

There my call outs. Yeah we can call out Kenny Wright and the usuals, but these listed here are causing some major problems as well IMO.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Whenever we lose, and for hat matter, whenever we will, there are the usual players that get called out for sub-performance. BUT, what about the ones that are not called out but deserve to be.

How about these guys:

MY DEFENSIVE TWO

1. DT Cornelius Griffin. How many times has his name been called? 15 tackles in 5 games. Where is his leadership this year? Double teamed? Who cares. He was double teamed his first year here and made a significant impact.

2. S Sean Taylor. Big time drop off in performance this year. His pass coverage has been more than suspect in 06. Play like a first rounder Sean!

MY OFFENSIVE TWO

1. OT Jon Jansen. Why the drop off Jon? Got your paycheck and now satisfied? Come on man, step up up or maybe we should look for different direction.

2. Joe Gibbs. You brought in saunders. You brought in big time Wrs for Big Time money, yet, Lloyd has a measley 5 catches and Randel El is abotu as under-used as anyone. Duckett ring a bell? Maybe GM Joe should not jump the gun and be a bit patient. Where was Betts? We were successful by havign a oen tow punch with Portis and Betts, yet Betts managed one carry????

There my call outs. Yeah we can call out Kenny Wright and the usuals, but these listed here are causing some major problems as well IMO.
I agree with Griffin, Jansen, and Gibbs. Taylor has been suspect in coverage, but at least he makes plays, like the forced fumble by Barber, which was a great play. But he should be doing better...much better.
My four are:
1. Gibbs
2. Gregg Williams (big time)
3. Griffin
4. Rogers
With honorable mention to the whole offensive line, starting with Jansen.

[redskin_rich]

Griff sat out quite a bit of the game, he was hurting.
Rabach deserves to be called out as much as Jansen.
Gregg Williams takes the crown for coaches deserving a call out. His defense has stunk in every game. We have the worst 3rd down defense in the NFL.

[AliBabba]

My list, in no particular order, is comprised of:

1. Gibbs
2. GW
3. Griff
4. A.Carter
5. OLine especially the aforementioned Rabach/Jansen
6. GW again (no pass rush, blown coverages, predictable blitzes, TERRIBLE job on 3rd down)

[Keino]

I think calling out Sean Taylor is absurd. He got beat by the #1 WR on the Giants. Tell me what Saftey in the NFL gets that matchup in isolation. Yeah he got turned around but cmon. I also think calling out Griff who is also dealing with an injury is equally absurd.

If you want to call someone out on Defense, it should be Carter who sprints up the field on each and every play and takes himself out of position. The person in the secondary that should be called out is Rogers, who has had the opportunity to make game changing plays at least 3 times this year and has dropped the ball....literally and figuratively.


On offense I agree with Jansen. He is having arguably his worst season as a pro.

As for the Gibbs comments....shouldn't you be calling out Saunders? Did you watch the game? If you did, you would know that the flow of the game dictated that Betts only get one carry. Really, I don't want to see Betts carrying the ball that much, and I want to see Duckett used on 3rd and short and 2nd and Short as well. Establish him as our Short yardage guy and then when opposing defenses are gearing up to stop him on short yardage.....play action.

[redskin_rich]

As for the Gibbs comments....shouldn't you be calling out Saunders? Did you watch the game? If you did, you would know that the flow of the game dictated that Betts only get one carry. Really, I don't want to see Betts carrying the ball that much, and I want to see Duckett used on 3rd and short and 2nd and Short as well. Establish him as our Short yardage guy and then when opposing defenses are gearing up to stop him on short yardage.....play action.
The Skins did execute a nice play-action last week but unfortunately James Thrash thought he was running a decoy route.

[CNYSkinFan]

I am calling out the whole team with the exception of Clinton Portis. There is no one on the team playing at a high level, except for CP. I just can't name one person, even Marcus Washington, who has plaed well on the defense.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

The Skins did execute a nice play-action last week but unfortunately James Thrash thought he was running a decoy route.
Oh yeah..about that play..why, if we are gonna send just one receiver out, do we send our worst one? And yeah, he didn't exactly look too convincing out there...

[wewantdallas]

Saunders made a good point last night. He said they WERE planning on using Betts more and running more in the second half, but that 8 minute opening drive by the Giants pretty much destroyed those plans, as they were down 16-3.

He said the number of plays the offense ran was the lowest in his NFL career. He did not seem happy. I felt like he was "this close" to calling out the defense, but I could be wrong about that.

He also explained the decision to pass on third and one. The play was designed to hit Sellers coming out of the backfield. Saunders protected Brunell by saying the Giants defended it well, but when they showed the replay, Sellers was WIDE open and would've picked up the first easily. He was simply delayed a bit coming off his block, but Brunell had time to hit him. He just panicked and went to Cooley instead. That one's on Brunell.

[AliBabba]

The Skins did execute a nice play-action last week but unfortunately James Thrash thought he was running a decoy route.

Should not have been running the route

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I am calling out the whole team with the exception of Clinton Portis. There is no one on the team playing at a high level, except for CP. I just can't name one person, even Marcus Washington, who has plaed well on the defense.
Honestly, I don't think Santana could do more than what he has been doing so far. He singlehandedly won us a game last week. And Cooley seems to have picked up his game. Other than that, I agree.

[CNYSkinFan]

I forgot about Santana....you are righ. Santana and CP....Cooley has had some drops and blocking issues so he does not get off my ***censored by Spence**8 list yet.

[Dolla Bill]

I am going against the grain in this thread. I am going to defend Taylor. This defense would be the absolute worst in the NFL if it wasn't for him or Washington. Taylor has had to be accountable for not only his assignments, but Archuleta's, Wright's, Rumph's, Rogers', and everyone else in the sickly secondary. We knew what we were getting with Archuletta, but his weakness should be covered up well by the Defensive coordinator, and put him in a situation to succeed.

My call outs:

1) OL as a whole. I could call out individuals, but they all need to buck up and be a group of men.

2) Griffin definitely. Where has he been this year?

3) Saunders gameplanning. Its way too up or down. The way his offense rolled in KC is that people knew what they were going to do, and that's run the ball and they couldn't stop it. Was it KC's line or Saunders?

4) Joe Jackson Gibbs. This team is too undisciplined. It starts with the head man. He needs to pull the reins with Saunders if he feels the offense is not doing what it should be doing properly. He also needs to hold Williams more accountable for the way his defense has been playing. Is he doing these things? Maybe. At least we haven't heard he has in public, that would be a disaster.

[Skinz4lyfe]

Griff sat out quite a bit of the game, he was hurting.
Rabach deserves to be called out as much as Jansen.
Gregg Williams takes the crown for coaches deserving a call out. His defense has stunk in every game. We have the worst 3rd down defense in the NFL.

I totally agree w/you here. And to think all the fuss on the O-line before the season was about Dockery. He's actually having a decent season thus far.

Gregg Williams needs to stop coaching to "baby" our CBs. IMO, he keeps preaching to not talk about the guys who are not here, than he needs to coach like that too. For example, when its 3rd and 3, don't have your CBs play 10 yards off the line of scrimmage.

Also, the Duckett trade is looking worse and worse everyday. I didn't like it the day we did it and I hate it even worse now. That 3rd rounder "might" have gone a long way in picking up another CB or O-lineman that we need for depth.

[shally]

Whenever we lose, and for hat matter, whenever we will, there are the usual players that get called out for sub-performance. BUT, what about the ones that are not called out but deserve to be.

How about these guys:

MY DEFENSIVE TWO

1. DT Cornelius Griffin. How many times has his name been called? 15 tackles in 5 games. Where is his leadership this year? Double teamed? Who cares. He was double teamed his first year here and made a significant impact.

2. S Sean Taylor. Big time drop off in performance this year. His pass coverage has been more than suspect in 06. Play like a first rounder Sean!

MY OFFENSIVE TWO

1. OT Jon Jansen. Why the drop off Jon? Got your paycheck and now satisfied? Come on man, step up up or maybe we should look for different direction.

2. Joe Gibbs. You brought in saunders. You brought in big time Wrs for Big Time money, yet, Lloyd has a measley 5 catches and Randel El is abotu as under-used as anyone. Duckett ring a bell? Maybe GM Joe should not jump the gun and be a bit patient. Where was Betts? We were successful by havign a oen tow punch with Portis and Betts, yet Betts managed one carry????

There my call outs. Yeah we can call out Kenny Wright and the usuals, but these listed here are causing some major problems as well IMO.

add marcus washington to that list.. he has not been productive as in years
past

[shally]

Saunders made a good point last night. He said they WERE planning on using Betts more and running more in the second half, but that 8 minute opening drive by the Giants pretty much destroyed those plans, as they were down 16-3.

He said the number of plays the offense ran was the lowest in his NFL career. He did not seem happy. I felt like he was "this close" to calling out the defense, but I could be wrong about that.

He also explained the decision to pass on third and one. The play was designed to hit Sellers coming out of the backfield. Saunders protected Brunell by saying the Giants defended it well, but when they showed the replay, Sellers was WIDE open and would've picked up the first easily. He was simply delayed a bit coming off his block, but Brunell had time to hit him. He just panicked and went to Cooley instead. That one's on Brunell.

does not surprise me one bit.. too bad we will not play campbell while the season is still salvageable

[openallnight]

Whenever we lose, and for hat matter, whenever we will, there are the usual players that get called out for sub-performance. BUT, what about the ones that are not called out but deserve to be.

How about these guys:

MY DEFENSIVE TWO

1. DT Cornelius Griffin. How many times has his name been called? 15 tackles in 5 games. Where is his leadership this year? Double teamed? Who cares. He was double teamed his first year here and made a significant impact.

2. S Sean Taylor. Big time drop off in performance this year. His pass coverage has been more than suspect in 06. Play like a first rounder Sean!

MY OFFENSIVE TWO

1. OT Jon Jansen. Why the drop off Jon? Got your paycheck and now satisfied? Come on man, step up up or maybe we should look for different direction.

2. Joe Gibbs. You brought in saunders. You brought in big time Wrs for Big Time money, yet, Lloyd has a measley 5 catches and Randel El is abotu as under-used as anyone. Duckett ring a bell? Maybe GM Joe should not jump the gun and be a bit patient. Where was Betts? We were successful by havign a oen tow punch with Portis and Betts, yet Betts managed one carry????

There my call outs. Yeah we can call out Kenny Wright and the usuals, but these listed here are causing some major problems as well IMO.

I think last week was an anomaly. Almost everyone on the entire team played poorly.
Washington and Taylor had probably their worse games in a Skins uniform. Marshall and Holdman played particularly poorly. I'm not going to even mention any other DBs. They've already been beaten to death.
I think we'll see alot less of Carter and alot more of Wynn at DE with the way he was exposed in the running game. I also think/hope we'll see alot less of Holdman in pass coverage. (Clemons appears to be a significant loss in pass D at the moment).

On the offensive side of the ball, Rabach, Jansen and Fauria again played extremely poorly. This seems to be a common thread in the 3 losses.
Even Samuels and Thomas played below their own standards. Again I think this is an anamoly as opposed to a continuing cause for concern.

I also agree on the coaching in this game. You have to have a feel for the game. Sometimes going for it on 4th and 1 (especially when the kicker is hurt) and 4th and 5 from the opponents 36 (when the D is not stopping the other team and you need a spark on the road) are the right calls. A good gametime coach knows when to play it safe and when to roll the dice. Gibbs was a master at this earlier in his career. Although, last Sunday I don't think he had a good "feel" for the way that particular game was going.

[Swirvi]

I am calling out the whole team with the exception of Clinton Portis. There is no one on the team playing at a high level, except for CP. I just can't name one person, even Marcus Washington, who has plaed well on the defense.

Cooley has picked up his game lately. And for that matter, how can you call out Moss? Did he drop any passes? No. In fact he had that one amazing catch on the sideline which moved the chains, even after being held. And you can't call out Lloyd either. Hard to pick on a guy who isn't being given a chance. What did ARE do that is so wrong? These guys always do great things when Brunell can deliver the ball to them. On offense, I call out ONLY the offensive line and Brunell. They are playing horribly.

[smoak]

I am calling out the whole team with the exception of Clinton Portis. There is no one on the team playing at a high level, except for CP. I just can't name one person, even Marcus Washington, who has plaed well on the defense.

I've read a lot of much worse horse poo in this thread, but why should a guy who drops aneasy pass on third down get a pass??? CP lays it all on the field, but we win and lose as a team. Everyone is responsable including Gibbs, but I have to say... The concept of fans "calling out" a Hall of Fame coach with three Super Bowl rings for their team is a laughable one. I stand by my coach through good and bad, and I truly believe everyone can do more to help the team.

[Skinzsnut]

Here's who I would call out, there are some that were already.
Archeleta- Coverage
Andre Carter- were's the pass rush thats the reason ur here
Holdman- start doing something
Griffin- Were's the last year's and two years ago version of him
, in his defense I know he was hurt and might not be 100 percent.
For the Giants game the whole D-line they got manhandeled and the Giants don't even have that good of a line.
Carlos- Ur the 9th pick in the draft, those picks aren't drafted to be a complimentry player. In his defense he could be a work in progress.
Offense
Brunell- Show me u can stretch the field or its going to be a long season.
Ot- You've been in the league for a while, ur payed a lot start playing like Jacoby and Lachey. U don't have Spurrier to blame anymore.
Coaching-
Gibbs- For Saunders not controlling the play calls fully, but also only three two a days why were you getting soft on these guys u should know no matter how great character is succes can go to people's head and they can get soft, no matter how many great players u have and how great the scheme is, u have to know the scheme and they have to be prepared to face the opposing players. Why did u trade a third round pick for a guy that isn't even suiting up, remember u got Cooley in the third round we can use more players like him. Don't get me wrong I am glad we have Gibbs and think he will turn this around.
Williams- The defense isn't looking like the past two years. We don't have Springs which hurts us though, but it shouldn't be that much of a drop off.
Remember I know some of these have already been called out, but this is what I think should be called out.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I've read a lot of much worse horse poo in this thread, but why should a guy who drops aneasy pass on third down get a pass??? CP lays it all on the field, but we win and lose as a team. Everyone is responsable including Gibbs, but I have to say... The concept of fans "calling out" a Hall of Fame coach with three Super Bowl rings for their team is a laughable one. I stand by my coach through good and bad, and I truly believe everyone can do more to help the team.
"Calling out" in my opinion equals criticizing. And critizing somebody does not mean that I wouldn't stand by him through good and bad. It just means that so far this year, IMO, he has not done a very good job in various areas. The Duckett trade is an example. The playcalling is another (the FG for example). Getting the team ready for important games is another example. Not handling the kicker situation is another one. And it really doesn't matter if he has won 3 Super Bowls, 10, or 0. That will never be taken away from him. And i will always be grateful to him for that. He will always be my favorite coach of all time. But if, IMO, he is not doing a good job this year, I will criticize him. If that is laughable or if it is not allowed, I guess I'll stick to the Apache forum.

[skins4ever28]

:cry: :cry:
I think the REDSKINS o-line got out played , the D-line cant pressure the qb. We spent alot of money in the off season on upgrading the wr corp and giving away draft picks. DEFENSE wins championships. The Redskins have to blitz because they have no pass rush to get to the QB. The problem is if you blitz and dont get to the QB you give up big plays. Look at the BEARS they have a 4 man pass rush who pressure the QB. We need young young fresh legs at the DE postion , so maybe this coming draft we will draft a DE. We give the falcons a 3rd rounder for DUCKETT and dont use him go figure. Why
is James Thrash on the field a wr . We sign Lloyd , Randel EL, and Patten , so we use Thrash. plzzzz. I dont think this game vs the GIANTS show us anything , except we play poorly every year when we go to the meadowlands.
SO you faithful fans just hang in there we will get this ship turned around . PLEASE DONT CALL FOR JASON CAMPBELL JUST YET.

[silverspring]

I would point to the coaching staff over and over.
Bugel- How is our offensive line this bad, we should be one of the best in the league, why are they getting worse?
Williams- Your defense has more talent every year and plays worse every year. What is going on that they won't even tackle for you?
Saunders- Explain some of these play calls? Instead of trying to trick the other team why can't we just call the stuff they are giving us? We have talent, let our players play and win their matchups?
Danny Smith- Get lost, for a team that puts so much emphasis on special teams it is a wonder how we have 2 kickers with issues and a holy coverage unit and generally inconsistent play for 3 seasons.
Gibbs- When you trade away our future you better produce in the current.

[skinfan43]

I am calling out the whole team with the exception of Clinton Portis. There is no one on the team playing at a high level, except for CP. I just can't name one person, even Marcus Washington, who has plaed well on the defense.
Demetric Evans, along with Golston, has played well the limited amount of times he's been in there, IMO.
Wow...they've really been the only ones, though...:(

[CNYSkinFan]

I've read a lot of much worse horse poo in this thread, but why should a guy who drops aneasy pass on third down get a pass??? CP lays it all on the field, but we win and lose as a team. Everyone is responsable including Gibbs, but I have to say... The concept of fans "calling out" a Hall of Fame coach with three Super Bowl rings for their team is a laughable one. I stand by my coach through good and bad, and I truly believe everyone can do more to help the team.
I understand your position but I agree with Spicy. I can criticize and support at the same time. Dropping one pass is a mistake and every football player makes but CP and Moss are the only guys I would say are laying it on the field every game and producing positive results most of the time. The rest are either not trying very hard or not giving positive results...or in the case of a few, neither.

The Coaching staff and front office does deserve criticism for not getting this team ready. Whether it was starting camp a week too late or not having adequate depth for injuries, or bringing in real competition at a few key positions. I furthermore think Gibbs would agree with that. The blame starts and stops with them. There are breakdowns team wide, not just individual players. Playcalling on offense and defense have been stubborn and unchanging despite it's success or lack thereof.

[Death_Venom]

Saunders made a good point last night. He said they WERE planning on using Betts more and running more in the second half, but that 8 minute opening drive by the Giants pretty much destroyed those plans, as they were down 16-3.

He said the number of plays the offense ran was the lowest in his NFL career. He did not seem happy. I felt like he was "this close" to calling out the defense, but I could be wrong about that.

He also explained the decision to pass on third and one. The play was designed to hit Sellers coming out of the backfield. Saunders protected Brunell by saying the Giants defended it well, but when they showed the replay, Sellers was WIDE open and would've picked up the first easily. He was simply delayed a bit coming off his block, but Brunell had time to hit him. He just panicked and went to Cooley instead. That one's on Brunell.


Brunnell's decision making is sometimes suspect. This is not the 1st time that Brunnell has made a bad decision. Jon Jansen needs to become a more effective consistent blocker or we need to make some serious off-season moves regarding the offensive line.

[AliBabba]

Whether it was starting camp a week too late or not having adequate depth for injuries, or bringing in real competition at a few key positions.

You couldn't be referring to Frosty the Blowman?

The Coaching staff and front office does deserve criticism for not getting this team ready.

Absolutely. I will support Joe Gibbs forever, but I do not believe he is above criticism. After all, he is a football coach a title that no man, or deity, can hold without being held accountable on a weekly basis. He and his staff did not get the job done. For the second year in a row we went into that place and completely embarrassed ourselves. We have 11 games to make up for it, but after every single one he, his staff, and his players are responsible for what happened.

[Dolla Bill]

I understand your position but I agree with Spicy. I can criticize and support at the same time. Dropping one pass is a mistake and every football player makes but CP and Moss are the only guys I would say are laying it on the field every game and producing positive results most of the time. The rest are either not trying very hard or not giving positive results...or in the case of a few, neither.

The Coaching staff and front office does deserve criticism for not getting this team ready. Whether it was starting camp a week too late or not having adequate depth for injuries, or bringing in real competition at a few key positions. I furthermore think Gibbs would agree with that. The blame starts and stops with them. There are breakdowns team wide, not just individual players. Playcalling on offense and defense have been stubborn and unchanging despite it's success or lack thereof.


I agree with you CNY on that its not that I am not throwing Gibbs under the bus or that I am against him. I just question his handling of the staff. His top 2 assistants are 95% in control of their respective sides of the ball. Its time to hold them accountable.

[CNYSkinFan]

You couldn't be referring to Frosty the Blowman?



Absolutely. I will support Joe Gibbs forever, but I do not believe he is above criticism. After all, he is a football coach a title that no man, or deity, can hold without being held accountable on a weekly basis. He and his staff did not get the job done. For the second year in a row we went into that place and completely embarrassed ourselves. We have 11 games to make up for it, but after every single one he, his staff, and his players are responsible for what happened.
not just Frostie...Hall too, but that has been beat to death.

[thickskin]

i don't worship anybody or anything. being nice and accountable and humble and professional and hard-working aside, joe gibbs has been successful in two vastly different competetive markets where gobs of money is to be had and thus the competition fierce. he breought in exactly the sort of players nearly everyone here agreed we needed. he brought in coaches widely lauded as among the very best at what they do, both top head coaching candidates. i'm sure insodoing a measure of authority was one of the selling points. we're five games into a season, and more importantly, into a new offense, one that has at times looked really good. the defense has sucked beyond what can be chalked up to injuries. but williams' performance the past two years has earned him room to work out his own troubles. 3 superbowl rings does the same for jjg, and i'm of the mind to call out any fan who thinks otherwise. shut up and take the pain. take the pain!

[SpicyMcHaggis]

i don't worship anybody or anything. being nice and accountable and humble and professional and hard-working aside, joe gibbs has been successful in two vastly different competetive markets where gobs of money is to be had and thus the competition fierce. he breought in exactly the sort of players nearly everyone here agreed we needed. he brought in coaches widely lauded as among the very best at what they do, both top head coaching candidates. i'm sure insodoing a measure of authority was one of the selling points. we're five games into a season, and more importantly, into a new offense, one that has at times looked really good. the defense has sucked beyond what can be chalked up to injuries. but williams' performance the past two years has earned him room to work out his own troubles. 3 superbowl rings does the same for jjg, and i'm of the mind to call out any fan who thinks otherwise
Who ever said otherwise? Did you see anybody calling for Gibbs's head? Or Williams's? And PLEASE..can we not play the "3 rings" card in every argument or discussion or topic regarding Gibbs?

[BurgundyNGold]

i don't worship anybody or anything. being nice and accountable and humble and professional and hard-working aside, joe gibbs has been successful in two vastly different competetive markets where gobs of money is to be had and thus the competition fierce. he breought in exactly the sort of players nearly everyone here agreed we needed. he brought in coaches widely lauded as among the very best at what they do, both top head coaching candidates. i'm sure insodoing a measure of authority was one of the selling points. we're five games into a season, and more importantly, into a new offense, one that has at times looked really good. the defense has sucked beyond what can be chalked up to injuries. but williams' performance the past two years has earned him room to work out his own troubles. 3 superbowl rings does the same for jjg, and i'm of the mind to call out any fan who thinks otherwise. shut up and take the pain. take the pain!
Heathen. :D

Seriously though, this is a very good post. No excuses, no ship jumpers.

[smoak]

"Calling out" in my opinion equals criticizing. And critizing somebody does not mean that I wouldn't stand by him through good and bad. It just means that so far this year, IMO, he has not done a very good job in various areas. The Duckett trade is an example. The playcalling is another (the FG for example). Getting the team ready for important games is another example. Not handling the kicker situation is another one. And it really doesn't matter if he has won 3 Super Bowls, 10, or 0. That will never be taken away from him. And i will always be grateful to him for that. He will always be my favorite coach of all time. But if, IMO, he is not doing a good job this year, I will criticize him. If that is laughable or if it is not allowed, I guess I'll stick to the Apache forum.

Maybe I think of "calling out" as worse than being critical and that is my lack of understanding of the lingo.

Your opinion is that Gibbs has not done a very good job, and I diagree. Has he been great? No, probably not. But it isn't nearly as bad as some think. The Duckett trade was done for insurance in case CP was out for awhile. People cry about it now, but imagine the tears is we did nothing and CP didn't play??? Someone made the comment that "insurance" is something you don't appreciate until you need it, and I really like that comparison. People would be calling out Gibbs for his resignation had we done nothing and CP missed a lot of time. Sure I'd love for Duckett to play, but think I'll side with a HALL OF FAME coach rather my uneducated opinion given that I am not involved with the team on a daily basis. Hall is injured and should be released after this season (IMO). I don't understand blaming Gibbs for that. Hall was a fine kicker when he was healthy, and the only player that evenly remotely piqued my interest me in the offseason was Viniterie (sp). I know people like Vander-jerk or Vander-choke, but I don't. The man is a loser plain and simple in my book. Then you have your Novak horde that may get their wish. Who else was there (that is a real question as I don't remember)? How do we know Gibbs didn't make calls to inquire as to the availablity of some of the FAs out there?? What would you do differently? Play calling is an interesting issue. Just b/c one disagrees (I've disagreed with some) doesn't make Gibbs wrong. I still have to say that I think he know more football that I do. I would have gone for it at the end of the Giants game, but that is me. I find the discussion on the FG against the Jags to be laughable. You take the points and the lead, but that is also when we thought we had a defense which we don't. At this point I've lost a lot of confidence in the D and wonder if we'll get back to being even average this season.

Criticize whoever you wish, but I for one just think it is hard for the average fan to make an informed opinion. Unless at a bare minimum you are going back and re-watching the broadcast (which I know I can't do after a loss) multiple times taking note of mistakes and issues, then I don't think the opinion holds as much weight. For example, it is easy for everyone to say "Brunell Stinks", but it is much more difficult to really understand the protections, the routes, the drops, the defense, etc. Football is the ultimate team sport and it is rare that one person is to blame for breakdowns. I actually think this is a great thread b/c it seems that people are going after everyone and not just Brunell/Jansen.

I for one am looking forward to better times when we don't have discussion with the underlying frustration of losing yet another winnable game.

[smoak]

i don't worship anybody or anything. being nice and accountable and humble and professional and hard-working aside, joe gibbs has been successful in two vastly different competetive markets where gobs of money is to be had and thus the competition fierce. he breought in exactly the sort of players nearly everyone here agreed we needed. he brought in coaches widely lauded as among the very best at what they do, both top head coaching candidates. i'm sure insodoing a measure of authority was one of the selling points. we're five games into a season, and more importantly, into a new offense, one that has at times looked really good. the defense has sucked beyond what can be chalked up to injuries. but williams' performance the past two years has earned him room to work out his own troubles. 3 superbowl rings does the same for jjg, and i'm of the mind to call out any fan who thinks otherwise. shut up and take the pain. take the pain!

Amen! This is the best post I've read all week... Granted I haven't been on, but you get the point.

Demetric Evans, along with Golston, has played well the limited amount of times he's been in there, IMO.
Wow...they've really been the only ones, though...:(

Yeah, remember the days of people arguing over whether or not Carter would get 10-15 or 15-20 sacks?? Wow. Just wow.

[skinfan43]

The time is right now to switch gears and play with focused ferocity.
I expect to see a different attitude from our team this week...after crapping the bed vs the Giants last year, this team "manned up" and dropped their ideas about their grandeur, and just played Redskins football.
Whether we like it or not, we're in the same spot again - just Thank God it's not at 5-6 and needing to win out...three killer games after this Sunday means that this Sunday is EVERYTHING to our team. We must turn the corner now.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Maybe I think of "calling out" as worse than being critical and that is my lack of understanding of the lingo.


I interpreted "calling out" as criticizing..I could ve wrong however. But, at least for me, that's all it was.

Your opinion is that Gibbs has not done a very good job, and I diagree.

That's all right. I have no problem with that.


Has he been great? No, probably not. But it isn't nearly as bad as some think. The Duckett trade was done for insurance in case CP was out for awhile. People cry about it now, but imagine the tears is we did nothing and CP didn't play??? Someone made the comment that "insurance" is something you don't appreciate until you need it, and I really like that comparison. People would be calling out Gibbs for his resignation had we done nothing and CP missed a lot of time.

We have had the same 3 RBs since Gibbs got here. If they were sufficient the last two years, why are they not sufficient now? What if Portis had gotten hurt last year? And he missed 1 and a half games this year so far. It's not like he was gonna miss two or three months, unless the medical staff was terribly wrong in analizing the injury. And if you are going to activate him, why isn't he playing? I just do not understand what is going on with that situation.

Sure I'd love for Duckett to play, but think I'll side with a HALL OF FAME coach rather my uneducated opinion given that I am not involved with the team on a daily basis. Hall is injured and should be released after this season (IMO). I don't understand blaming Gibbs for that.

Hall has been injured for three straight years now. It was pretty obvious to anybody who was watching that he could not be counted on. That is what I blame Gibbs for. Not dealing with the situation in the offseason.

Hall was a fine kicker when he was healthy,

Three years ago.


and the only player that evenly remotely piqued my interest me in the offseason was Viniterie (sp). I know people like Vander-jerk or Vander-choke, but I don't. The man is a loser plain and simple in my book. Then you have your Novak horde that may get their wish. Who else was there (that is a real question as I don't remember)?

Longwell.

How do we know Gibbs didn't make calls to inquire as to the availablity of some of the FAs out there?? What would you do differently? Play calling is an interesting issue. Just b/c one disagrees (I've disagreed with some) doesn't make Gibbs wrong.

Obviously not.

I still have to say that I think he know more football that I do. I would have gone for it at the end of the Giants game, but that is me.

Me too. And I think that is indisputably the wrong decision. How is it useful if you are down by 16 (2 touchdowns) to go down by 13 (two touchdowns) late in the game?

I find the discussion on the FG against the Jags to be laughable. You take the points and the lead,

I don't think it's laughable (anybody can have their opinion), but I agree with you. I would have kicked the FG.

but that is also when we thought we had a defense which we don't. At this point I've lost a lot of confidence in the D and wonder if we'll get back to being even average this season.

I hope so, but I share your worries, and don't think it can all be traced back to Springs.

Criticize whoever you wish, but I for one just think it is hard for the average fan to make an informed opinion. Unless at a bare minimum you are going back and re-watching the broadcast (which I know I can't do after a loss) multiple times taking note of mistakes and issues, then I don't think the opinion holds as much weight. For example, it is easy for everyone to say "Brunell Stinks", but it is much more difficult to really understand the protections, the routes, the drops, the defense, etc.

You're right. But there is no harm in voicing an opinion, if you do so in an educated manner, and providing some sort of evidence, as wrong and partial as it may be. Obviously Gibbs and any other coach are gonna know moew than we are, but they can all make mmistakes.

Football is the ultimate team sport and it is rare that one person is to blame for breakdowns.

Definitely.

I actually think this is a great thread b/c it seems that people are going after everyone and not just Brunell/Jansen.

It makes for a good thread, but unfortunately it also means that almost everyone has not performed up to their standards...but nonetheless it is a good topic of discussion.


I for one am looking forward to better times when we don't have discussion with the underlying frustration of losing yet another winnable game.

God, so am I.... :)

[bgforever]

Excellent thread, because I haven't been able to call out or use the net for over 18 hours!!! I had to get repair service thanks to Rocky the squirrel! :rolleyes:

With that I'd call out the whole team and add CP too, cause he on it.

[helimech24]

IMO, our two biggest mistakes this offseason was bringing in Saunders and Arch. I know that GW couldn't have predicted the loss of PP and Springs for this long, but Arch isn't as good in coverage as Will Clark was, and ST is more of a roamer and run support type of guy. Sure, he can hang in One-on-One coverage at times, but he shouldn't have to do it all game long, he isn't built for that. And I know that Saunders was suppose to be an upgrade, but was it one we really needed to make? If Randy Thomas didn't go down late last season, we would have been serious SB contenders instead of practice for Seattle. JG playcalling got fixed during the 5 game win streak when the Vets got together and said we want power running(Something that has been lacking in our losses). Saunders play calling is also suspect when he keeps running Portis outside against a fast defense instead of running inside.

[smoak]

Who ever said otherwise? Did you see anybody calling for Gibbs's head? Or Williams's? And PLEASE..can we not play the "3 rings" card in every argument or discussion or topic regarding Gibbs?

I love you Spicy so don't take this the wrong way, but how long have you been a Skins fan? I'm not being mean or disrespectuful, and I am sure there are a lot of members out there that can and will expand (and maybe correct) on what I say as I have only been a fan for about 32 years.

The extent of my Redskins history is as follows:

New coach Joe Gibbs struggles a little in year one and wins Super Bowl in year two. Then the Redskins achieve a level of long term consistency that is unmatched in franchise history. More Super Bows follow. The fan base is spoiled to the point where a 10 win season is considered failure. All this franchise does between '81-'92 is win OVER 67% of their games (even better I believe if you add in post season), win three Super Bowls, average OVER 10 wins a season.

The Gibbs retired. (I was devastated, but I felt he deserved it and respected him leavin on his own terms.)

What followed was a collection of ineptude and disgrace that has never before been seen and will probably/hopefully never be duplicated. Norv Turner was a complete boob. Spurrier was a moron. Petitbone? Robiskie? Marty? Take your pick. We were in despair. We had one playoff appearance in 11 years. We averaged less than 7 wins per year. Twice we finished above .500 (technically three times if you count the 8-7-1 nightmare). There was a revolving door of clowns that made us a laughing stock of the league. Westbrook. Shuler. Frerotte's head butt. Deion Sanders. Bruce Smith. Dana Stubblefield. Dan Wilkinson.

As a fan, I remember feeling there was no hope. I remember what it was like to assume we'd lose every game. I remember not even watching games b/c it meant I'd have to go to a sports bar and deal with the constant ridicule and harrassment. I remember feeling the equivalent of wanting to commit "sports suicide" b/c it hurt so bad and you just want the pain to stop. At my lowest point in my "sports life", just when I feel that I want to "die" (again, not literally), the impossible happens. Coach Joe Gibbs returns. He comes back for me and the thousands and thousands of fans like me who need something to believe in. We needed something we could be proud of again. We needed a revitalization of a feeling that had been dormant (not dead) for years, and he was there to save this franchise. 11 years of 6-7 wins (on average) and he takes a garbage team and has them back in the playoffs in year two. Coach Gibbs pulls magic out of the hat and does the "impossible" by taking a group of overpaid and underperforming rejects and molding them into a winning team. So please excuse the overly dramatic lead in, but that is whay I say this:

For you to ask "can we not play the three ring card" is no worse than to spit in the face of a true Redskins fan. It is no different that me dismissing the history of Italian art by saying "can you stop playing the Michelangelo and Da Vinci card". More than any other person in history, Gibbs IS the Washington Redskins, and I for one have his back at all times. That is not to say I always agree ort think him to be perfect. However, I am confident that no person in the world will do more or work harder for this franchsie that Joe Gibbs and that is all I can ask. The results will come, but it takes time. Maybe we've seemed to have taken a step back, but I think all the Super Bowl talk was simply premature and unfounded fan bravado. Gibbs knows what it takes. Gibbs knows that we're all hurting right now... But you know what, he will circle the wagon and he will have even the most unheralded player working their tail off for the Burgundy and Gold. that I can promise you. Joe Gibbs will not allow this franchise to sleep at the feet of mediocrity. So please excuse me if I am a little edgy ort easily offended by people being so quick to forget what he has and continues to do for this organization.

In all honesty, it is I who should leave Cherokee for awhile b/c I take some things too personally.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I love you Spicy so don't take this the wrong way, but how long have you been a Skins fan? I'm not being mean or disrespectuful, and I am sure there are a lot of members out there that can and will expand (and maybe correct) on what I say as I have only been a fan for about 32 years.

The extent of my Redskins history is as follows:

New coach Joe Gibbs struggles a little in year one and wins Super Bowl in year two. Then the Redskins achieve a level of long term consistency that is unmatched in franchise history. More Super Bows follow. The fan base is spoiled to the point where a 10 win season is considered failure. All this franchise does between '81-'92 is win OVER 67% of their games (even better I believe if you add in post season), win three Super Bowls, average OVER 10 wins a season.

The Gibbs retired. (I was devastated, but I felt he deserved it and respected him leavin on his own terms.)

What followed was a collection of ineptude and disgrace that has never before been seen and will probably/hopefully never be duplicated. Norv Turner was a complete boob. Spurrier was a moron. Petitbone? Robiskie? Marty? Take your pick. We were in despair. We had one playoff appearance in 11 years. We averaged less than 7 wins per year. Twice we finished above .500 (technically three times if you count the 8-7-1 nightmare). There was a revolving door of clowns that made us a laughing stock of the league. Westbrook. Shuler. Frerotte's head butt. Deion Sanders. Bruce Smith. Dana Stubblefield. Dan Wilkinson.

As a fan, I remember feeling there was no hope. I remember what it was like to assume we'd lose every game. I remember not even watching games b/c it meant I'd have to go to a sports bar and deal with the constant ridicule and harrassment. I remember feeling the equivalent of wanting to commit "sports suicide" b/c it hurt so bad and you just want the pain to stop. At my lowest point in my "sports life", just when I feel that I want to "die" (again, not literally), the impossible happens. Coach Joe Gibbs returns. He comes back for me and the thousands and thousands of fans like me who need something to believe in. We needed something we could be proud of again. We needed a revitalization of a feeling that had been dormant (not dead) for years, and he was there to save this franchise. 11 years of 6-7 wins (on average) and he takes a garbage team and has them back in the playoffs in year two. Coach Gibbs pulls magic out of the hat and does the "impossible" by taking a group of overpaid and underperforming rejects and molding them into a winning team. So please excuse the overly dramatic lead in, but that is whay I say this:

For you to ask "can we not play the three ring card" is no worse than to spit in the face of a true Redskins fan. It is no different that me dismissing the history of Italian art by saying "can you stop playing the Michelangelo and Da Vinci card". More than any other person in history, Gibbs IS the Washington Redskins, and I for one have his back at all times. That is not to say I always agree ort think him to be perfect. However, I am confident that no person in the world will do more or work harder for this franchsie that Joe Gibbs and that is all I can ask. The results will come, but it takes time. Maybe we've seemed to have taken a step back, but I think all the Super Bowl talk was simply premature and unfounded fan bravado. Gibbs knows what it takes. Gibbs knows that we're all hurting right now... But you know what, he will circle the wagon and he will have even the most unheralded player working their tail off for the Burgundy and Gold. that I can promise you. Joe Gibbs will not allow this franchise to sleep at the feet of mediocrity. So please excuse me if I am a little edgy ort easily offended by people being so quick to forget what he has and continues to do for this organization.

In all honesty, it is I who should leave Cherokee for awhile b/c I take some things too personally.
Smoak, I agree with what you said 100%. All the way. I just meant that, at least for me, the criticism of Gibbs is exclusively limited to some things that have happened this year. It is in no way intended to disrespect what he has done in the past. Even in the recent past. In fact, the job he did last year was, in my mind, worthy of a Super Bowl for the Redskins fans who had not seen a decent team in 15 years. And even when I criticise him, I am absolutely certaint that there is nobody out there that I would prefer having as our coach, and that he is able and will turn this situation around (we are only 2-3 by the way..it's not like we're 0-13). When I say to not play the "3 rings" card, I mean that it's not necessary to state every time what an absolutely incredible coach Gibbs is and has been. That's a given (at least for me). I didn't mean that I don't care what Gibbs has done for us. Quite the contrary. I hope I've cleared things up, and I'll try to choose my words more carefully next time, so there is no miscommunication. :Peace:
Oh, by the way, since you were curious (I know you didn't mean it in a disrespectufl way), I've been a Redskins fan since I moved to Fairfax, Virginia in 1985. That's 21 years out of a total of 26. So, I've been there for the rough stretch, but thankfully I've seen some good times as well. ;)

[silverspring]

Maybe I think of "calling out" as worse than being critical and that is my lack of understanding of the lingo.

Your opinion is that Gibbs has not done a very good job, and I diagree. Has he been great? No, probably not. But it isn't nearly as bad as some think. The Duckett trade was done for insurance in case CP was out for awhile. People cry about it now, but imagine the tears is we did nothing and CP didn't play??? Someone made the comment that "insurance" is something you don't appreciate until you need it, and I really like that comparison. People would be calling out Gibbs for his resignation had we done nothing and CP missed a lot of time. Sure I'd love for Duckett to play, but think I'll side with a HALL OF FAME coach rather my uneducated opinion given that I am not involved with the team on a daily basis. Hall is injured and should be released after this season (IMO). I don't understand blaming Gibbs for that. Hall was a fine kicker when he was healthy, and the only player that evenly remotely piqued my interest me in the offseason was Viniterie (sp). I know people like Vander-jerk or Vander-choke, but I don't. The man is a loser plain and simple in my book. Then you have your Novak horde that may get their wish. Who else was there (that is a real question as I don't remember)? How do we know Gibbs didn't make calls to inquire as to the availablity of some of the FAs out there?? What would you do differently? Play calling is an interesting issue. Just b/c one disagrees (I've disagreed with some) doesn't make Gibbs wrong. I still have to say that I think he know more football that I do. I would have gone for it at the end of the Giants game, but that is me. I find the discussion on the FG against the Jags to be laughable. You take the points and the lead, but that is also when we thought we had a defense which we don't. At this point I've lost a lot of confidence in the D and wonder if we'll get back to being even average this season.

Criticize whoever you wish, but I for one just think it is hard for the average fan to make an informed opinion. Unless at a bare minimum you are going back and re-watching the broadcast (which I know I can't do after a loss) multiple times taking note of mistakes and issues, then I don't think the opinion holds as much weight. For example, it is easy for everyone to say "Brunell Stinks", but it is much more difficult to really understand the protections, the routes, the drops, the defense, etc. Football is the ultimate team sport and it is rare that one person is to blame for breakdowns. I actually think this is a great thread b/c it seems that people are going after everyone and not just Brunell/Jansen.

I for one am looking forward to better times when we don't have discussion with the underlying frustration of losing yet another winnable game.

You are essentially saying that we shouldn't critize the coaching staff and gibbs because they have a great history and we don't know what they know?
I don't think anyone here doesn't have the uptmost respect for gibbs or doesn't love that he is and was part of our organization, but when you say stuff like this it makes it sound like people are "evil" for criticizing gibbs. It seems like someone always pulls the if you criticize gibbs how can you truly be a real fan card. Well sorry but gibbs isn't perfect, no one is perfect and this whole site is about speculating and fans pitching opinions and thoughts about the team from what we know. No, we aren't truly as informed as the coaching staff, but if we stop voicing opinions, criticisms and our view of things because of that we wouldn't have a thing to talk about here.

Personally I am not pleased with the direction of this team right now. All I really want is consistency. That doesn't mean winning every game, but that means looking like a professionally coached team that isn't plagued with penalties, that uses it's talent, that goes out and executes and competes week in and week out. Currently we are a sloppy team that can't seem to find a rhythm. Clearly these coaches are getting the talent they want, we have spent picks and cap room like it means nothing in the last 3 years. So if these coaches are getting the resources they ask for then I expect them to produce with those resouces and we aren't. So imo that blame is set firmly on their shoulders. I at the very least want to see steady improvement from year to year and we aren't seeing it, and it is very frustrating.

[bgforever]

I couldn't take it all as too serious so I made a joke of it. I will not be a vegetable ever again for ANY NFL coach, legend or scrub. I will make my comments as I see fit. However, I will not low rate him, otherwise if there's guilt of sin for comments or criticism, then let the first fan without, cast his or her stone.

[remaxjon]

I'm going to go ahead and call myself out. I obviously havn't been wearing the right jersey or yelling at the TV loud enough. I changed Redskin gear at least 3 times during the Giants game but for some reason the team still played terrible in all 3 phases. Clearly this is my fault but I've spent the majority of this week planing just the right outfit for sundays game. I'm going to have to nail to because I'm going to the game and won't be able to change at the half.






We are 2-3 with a probowl corner about to return and the best coaching staff in the league. Pick your head up because its so much more fun when the Skins make everyone look stupid for doubting them something that was proven last year. :banghead:

[smoak]

Smoak, I agree with what you said 100%. All the way. I just meant that, at least for me, the criticism of Gibbs is exclusively limited to some things that have happened this year. It is in no way intended to disrespect what he has done in the past. Even in the recent past. In fact, the job he did last year was, in my mind, worthy of a Super Bowl for the Redskins fans who had not seen a decent team in 15 years. And even when I criticise him, I am absolutely certaint that there is nobody out there that I would prefer having as our coach, and that he is able and will turn this situation around (we are only 2-3 by the way..it's not like we're 0-13). When I say to not play the "3 rings" card, I mean that it's not necessary to state every time what an absolutely incredible coach Gibbs is and has been. That's a given (at least for me). I didn't mean that I don't care what Gibbs has done for us. Quite the contrary. I hope I've cleared things up, and I'll try to choose my words more carefully next time, so there is no miscommunication. :Peace:
Oh, by the way, since you were curious (I know you didn't mean it in a disrespectufl way), I've been a Redskins fan since I moved to Fairfax, Virginia in 1985. That's 21 years out of a total of 26. So, I've been there for the rough stretch, but thankfully I've seen some good times as well. ;)

Ok, I knew you were a little younger than me, but I wasn't sure when or how you became a fan. I'm an overly dramatic goofball, but the newer/youngers fans sometimes can't relate to the pain and misery that was '93-'03 as it relates to the years of success. Obviously you and I have seen a taste of both the good and bad and have appreciation for how great it can be and what real misery is.

I just wish people didn't such knee jerk reactions in both directions. The Jags win was fun, but all of a sudden everyone assumed we'd go on a roll and be unstoppable. Now people are burying the team, and there never is any real middle ground with fans.

Personally, I think we're in real trouble and shouldn't assume a win against the Titans. I just don't care to "call out" anyone yet (even my arch enemy #85). We have to band together b/c we're in real danger of letting the season get away and I already believe we've shot ourselves in the foot when it comes to the playoffs.

[smoak]

You are essentially saying that we shouldn't critize the coaching staff and gibbs because they have a great history and we don't know what they know?
I don't think anyone here doesn't have the uptmost respect for gibbs or doesn't love that he is and was part of our organization, but when you say stuff like this it makes it sound like people are "evil" for criticizing gibbs. It seems like someone always pulls the if you criticize gibbs how can you truly be a real fan card. Well sorry but gibbs isn't perfect, no one is perfect and this whole site is about speculating and fans pitching opinions and thoughts about the team from what we know. No, we aren't truly as informed as the coaching staff, but if we stop voicing opinions, criticisms and our view of things because of that we wouldn't have a thing to talk about here.

Personally I am not pleased with the direction of this team right now. All I really want is consistency. That doesn't mean winning every game, but that means looking like a professionally coached team that isn't plagued with penalties, that uses it's talent, that goes out and executes and competes week in and week out. Currently we are a sloppy team that can't seem to find a rhythm. Clearly these coaches are getting the talent they want, we have spent picks and cap room like it means nothing in the last 3 years. So if these coaches are getting the resources they ask for then I expect them to produce with those resouces and we aren't. So imo that blame is set firmly on their shoulders. I at the very least want to see steady improvement from year to year and we aren't seeing it, and it is very frustrating.

Where did I say you shouldn't be critical of Gibbs??? I even pointed out one call where I disagreed with him. I don't even come close to thinking that people who do so are "evil".... Some are venmous to the point where it makes me ill, but I didn't even bring up that. My point is more to the arrogance that some people have when it comes to being critical. I know I am especially guilty of this (ask anyone who has debated with me), but it doesn't make sense that I as a fan should be arrogant to think that I know more than a HOF coach b/c I disagree on a call.

I differ from you in that I don't care to lay any blame... But I think Gibbs would be the first to accpet responsibility for the losses and the first to differ credit for the wins. The '06 story isn't finished and while I feel we will probably miss the playoffs, I think we are going to see steady improvement. there was just too man new factors to think we'd hit the ground running in '06 and I think fans got a little too carried away. I always felt that '07 was the year, but that is just wild speculation based on no facts whatsoever.

[Meatsnack]

No, no, you only think you know pain. Ask Wild Bore or Shally or some of the more "August" fans on the board what the bad times (pre-Lombardi) were really like.

I only go back to '72 as a Skins fan myself, so I don't really have much appreciation for the pre-Allen years. I was a Butkus/Bears fan in '70/'71 because I thought Butkus looked a lot like my dad. :)

BTW, don't be so quick to give Mssr. Petitbone the company of losers. We will never know what kind of head coach he could have been since Cook gave him the shaft when he dumped him to hire Norv. The roster he inherited was old and needed total rebuilding. And can you remember who was drafting for us back then? Riiiight. I always thought that Ritchie got a raw deal after so many years of great service to the organization. To fire him for a Dallas coach was low down.

[DoGood]

With everything that has gone wrong so far this season and the complete lack of effort or execution by entire squads, it is wrong to call out single players. The whole team is to blame.

[bgforever]

With everything that has gone wrong so far this season and the complete lack of effort or execution by entire squads, it is wrong to call out single players. The whole team is to blame.

You got my vote. Live as one, Die as one.

[smoak]

With everything that has gone wrong so far this season and the complete lack of effort or execution by entire squads, it is wrong to call out single players. The whole team is to blame.

Exacly with the exception that I prefer "responsible" to the word "blame".

[silverspring]

Where did I say you shouldn't be critical of Gibbs??? I even pointed out one call where I disagreed with him. I don't even come close to thinking that people who do so are "evil".... Some are venmous to the point where it makes me ill, but I didn't even bring up that. My point is more to the arrogance that some people have when it comes to being critical. I know I am especially guilty of this (ask anyone who has debated with me), but it doesn't make sense that I as a fan should be arrogant to think that I know more than a HOF coach b/c I disagree on a call.

I differ from you in that I don't care to lay any blame... But I think Gibbs would be the first to accpet responsibility for the losses and the first to differ credit for the wins. The '06 story isn't finished and while I feel we will probably miss the playoffs, I think we are going to see steady improvement. there was just too man new factors to think we'd hit the ground running in '06 and I think fans got a little too carried away. I always felt that '07 was the year, but that is just wild speculation based on no facts whatsoever.

Well that is the vibe i got from your post. If we don't make playoffs this year then i will consider this year a step back not a step forward. We were setting up for a superbowl run, even gibbs must have thought that to give so much up for duckett. We made the playoffs last year and we have added tons of weapons and improved our personnel so i can't consider it improvement for us not to make the playoffs this year. We have more talent but play worse, please explain cause i can't? And more than likely '07 is going to be cambell's coming out year. I wouldn't expect a rookie qb to lead us to a superbowl or close, but i guess anything could happen.

[smoak]

No, no, you only think you know pain. Ask Wild Bore or Shally or some of the more "August" fans on the board what the bad times (pre-Lombardi) were really like.

I only go back to '72 as a Skins fan myself, so I don't really have much appreciation for the pre-Allen years. I was a Butkus/Bears fan in '70/'71 because I thought Butkus looked a lot like my dad. :)

BTW, don't be so quick to give Mssr. Petitbone the company of losers. We will never know what kind of head coach he could have been since Cook gave him the shaft when he dumped him to hire Norv. The roster he inherited was old and needed total rebuilding. And can you remember who was drafting for us back then? Riiiight. I always thought that Ritchie got a raw deal after so many years of great service to the organization. To fire him for a Dallas coach was low down.

Yeah, I agree about 'Bone. I thought the "loser" aspect of both he and Marty is that they were fired right away so we just dont know what could have been. The only coach I have ever really despised was Norv b/c he was given far too long a leash.

I was hoping some of the older members would talk about the "pre-Gibbs despair" as I have no clue what that was like. you can read about something all you want, but I lived the Norv era and it was sickening. there was always enoguh to tease you into having hope and then BAM!!!! you kicked in the groin by reality.

[smoak]

Well that is the vibe i got from your post. If we don't make playoffs this year then i will consider this year a step back not a step forward. We were setting up for a superbowl run, even gibbs must have thought that to give so much up for duckett. We made the playoffs last year and we have added tons of weapons and improved our personnel so i can't consider it improvement for us not to make the playoffs this year. We have more talent but play worse, please explain cause i can't? And more than likely '07 is going to be cambell's coming out year. I wouldn't expect a rookie qb to lead us to a superbowl or close, but i guess anything could happen.

The improvement you'll see will be as it relates to this season. Sorry I wasn't clear, but not making the playoffs would be a small step back. I never bought the fan hype that this was a slam dunk playoff team and I always felt new players and coaches would need time to gel. We'll get there, but 0-3 in the NFC is quite a hole considering nobody expected the defense to be THIS bad.

[DoGood]

Exacly with the exception that I prefer "responsible" to the word "blame".

Agreed. This thread would be a mile long if we pointed out every mistake each player has made. It has been a team effort or lack thereof to bring us to this point. It will take an effort just as strong to bring us back but we can do it.

[Meatsnack]

Yeah, I agree about 'Bone. I thought the "loser" aspect of both he and Marty is that they were fired right away so we just dont know what could have been. The only coach I have ever really despised was Norv b/c he was given far too long a leash.

I was hoping some of the older members would talk about the "pre-Gibbs despair" as I have no clue what that was like. you can read about something all you want, but I lived the Norv era and it was sickening. there was always enoguh to tease you into having hope and then BAM!!!! you kicked in the groin by reality.
That's a really great metaphor for Norv. A 7-year kick in the groin. And the dude still makes excuses for himself that he didn't get a fair shot up here. Amazing. Death to him. I, too, hate Norv with the white-hot passion of a thousand suns.

[Slobberknocker]

does not surprise me one bit.. too bad we will not play campbell while the season is still salvageable

We lose to the Titans and the Colts -- you may see some big surprises during our bye week. Not sure the season is salvageable at that point (god, it's October and I'm already thinking -- who we have to beat for the wildcard?).

No, I won't do that. The season is still in play. Hit our stride like we did against the Jax, and anything is possible.

We need a poll: what do you think it would take for Joe Gibbs to play Jason over Mark? Yikes. I'd rather not know...

[Slobberknocker]

I'm going to go ahead and call myself out. I obviously havn't been wearing the right jersey or yelling at the TV loud enough. I changed Redskin gear at least 3 times during the Giants game but for some reason the team still played terrible in all 3 phases. Clearly this is my fault but I've spent the majority of this week planing just the right outfit for sundays game. I'm going to have to nail to because I'm going to the game and won't be able to change at the half.

:lol1:

Better guess right this weekend, buddy...

[WarEagle]

The original post mentions leadership. Very good point. Do the Redskins have any team leaders this season?

[bgforever]

The improvement you'll see will be as it relates to this season. Sorry I wasn't clear, but not making the playoffs would be a small step back. I never bought the fan hype that this was a slam dunk playoff team and I always felt new players and coaches would need time to gel. We'll get there, but 0-3 in the NFC is quite a hole considering nobody expected the defense to be THIS bad.


Point after point. Swallow the facts, and grow up with the truth. We should be better progressively each year after. That bodes well for consistency, like the current upper echelon teams. I'd rather wait and be right, that flash a goodie and crash the next year. Great points and is looking very much on point. Whether we make the playoffs shouldn't be the question, as us high hopers had it. It should be, can we improve UP to a level and STAY There!

[LATrueRedskin]

The original post mentions leadership. Very good point. Do the Redskins have any team leaders this season?

So far the only one I've seen even come close is Mike Sellers. He's the only one who gets fired up and pissed off when we're playing bad or lose. Other than that it's nobody. And Jon Jansen, I'm looking at you. Where are you? I should be hearing Jansen quotes in the Post every day.

[shally]

No, no, you only think you know pain. Ask Wild Bore or Shally or some of the more "August" fans on the board what the bad times (pre-Lombardi) were really like.

I only go back to '72 as a Skins fan myself, so I don't really have much appreciation for the pre-Allen years. I was a Butkus/Bears fan in '70/'71 because I thought Butkus looked a lot like my dad. :)

BTW, don't be so quick to give Mssr. Petitbone the company of losers. We will never know what kind of head coach he could have been since Cook gave him the shaft when he dumped him to hire Norv. The roster he inherited was old and needed total rebuilding. And can you remember who was drafting for us back then? Riiiight. I always thought that Ritchie got a raw deal after so many years of great service to the organization. To fire him for a Dallas coach was low down.

thank you for the shout out... it was truly ugly for many years.

as for pettibone, he was in over his head. much like robiskie..
we might have chosen very poorly with norv, but i do not think they were wrong in axing pettibone.. sometimes recognition is brutal, but the alternative is worse and it is better to cut your losses..

[redskin_rich]

So far the only one I've seen even come close is Mike Sellers. He's the only one who gets fired up and pissed off when we're playing bad or lose. Other than that it's nobody. And Jon Jansen, I'm looking at you. Where are you? I should be hearing Jansen quotes in the Post every day.
Randy Thomas took it on himself to hold an impromptu meeting, with all the players and coaches, at the beginning of the first practice before the Houston game. Randy did all the talking and I don't know what was said but it worked for a couple weeks. I think it is time someone else did the same. We have plenty of vets on this team. Marcus Washington would be a good candidate, since his unit has failed to give a decent performance.

[shally]

That's a really great metaphor for Norv. A 7-year kick in the groin. And the dude still makes excuses for himself that he didn't get a fair shot up here. Amazing. Death to him. I, too, hate Norv with the white-hot passion of a thousand suns.

does he make the same excuses for his tenure at oakland ? i doubt it.. the 7 year kick in the groin would be to his groin, courtesy of al davis, were he ever to go public with that...

[shally]

Randy Thomas took it on himself to hold an impromptu meeting, with all the players and coaches, at the beginning of the first practice before the Houston game. Randy did all the talking and I don't know what was said but it worked for a couple weeks. I think it is time someone else did the same. We have plenty of vets on this team. Marcus Washington would be a good candidate, since his unit has failed to give a decent performance.

they need someone from the defensive side of the ball to get in his teammates faces.. too many quiet guys...

[redskin_rich]

thank you for the shout out... it was truly ugly for many years.

as for pettibone, he was in over his head. much like robiskie..
we might have chosen very poorly with norv, but i do not think they were wrong in axing pettibone.. sometimes recognition is brutal, but the alternative is worse and it is better to cut your losses..
I tend to agree. 'Bone didn't get a fair shake but the entire team was in need of a rebuild and I don't think he was the right coach for that. It was a bad situation all together, because of Gibbs abrupt retirement.

In retrospect, I still don't know what we should have done. With Norv, we were trying to find another Gibbs, a bright, young offensive mind. Unfortunately, Norv didn't have the inner strength to be a successful head coach. We should have probably gone in a different direction, because lightning never strikes twice.

[shally]

I tend to agree. 'Bone didn't get a fair shake but the entire team was in need of a rebuild and I don't think he was the right coach for that. It was a bad situation all together, because of Gibbs abrupt retirement.

In retrospect, I still don't know what we should have done. With Norv, we were trying to find another Gibbs, a bright, young offensive mind. Unfortunately, Norv didn't have the inner strength to be a successful head coach. We should have probably gone in a different direction, because lightning never strikes twice.

it was really sad the way pettibone lost the team.. but if there ever was the peter principle at work, he was it.. despite his rep as a defensive mastermind, he really was not the sharpest tool in the shed.. i know people who grew up with him and they used to laugh about how well regarded he was. he was always a great athlete, but was regarded as a classic dumb jock.
i guess they were at least partially wrong, but clearly with the skins he was in the right place at the right time.. then he got exposed as a head coach.
not sure whom we should have picked, but clearly norv was a mistake...

[redskin_rich]

it was really sad the way pettibone lost the team.. but if there ever was the peter principle at work, he was it.. despite his rep as a defensive mastermind, he really was not the sharpest tool in the shed.. i know people who grew up with him and they used to laugh about how well regarded he was. he was always a great athlete, but was regarded as a classic dumb jock.
i guess they were at least partially wrong, but clearly with the skins he was in the right place at the right time.. then he got exposed as a head coach.
not sure whom we should have picked, but clearly norv was a mistake...
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Petitbone was a great defensive coordinator. We have not shut a team out since he left. In '92, he lost Darrell Green, arguably one of the best CB's ever, for the season and still had a stout defense, that carried the team to the playoffs.
As much praise as has been heaped on Gregg Williams, he hasn't come close to producing a defense like 'Bone did. 'Bone's defenses always produced turnovers, big time. They won many a game for us.

[LATrueRedskin]

Randy Thomas took it on himself to hold an impromptu meeting, with all the players and coaches, at the beginning of the first practice before the Houston game. Randy did all the talking and I don't know what was said but it worked for a couple weeks. I think it is time someone else did the same. We have plenty of vets on this team. Marcus Washington would be a good candidate, since his unit has failed to give a decent performance.

That's cool, I didn't know that. But Randy has to keep that type of thing up week after week. He's got to be the one at halftime getting on his teammates to step it up. He's got to lead this thing when it's going both good and bad. He's a great candidate to do this type of thing.

[bgforever]

That's cool, I didn't know that. But Randy has to keep that type of thing up week after week. He's got to be the one at halftime getting on his teammates to step it up. He's got to lead this thing when it's going both good and bad. He's a great candidate to do this type of thing.
yep, I think this week its Portis and coach himself that will fire them up. Look for GW to chime in.

[shally]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Petitbone was a great defensive coordinator. We have not shut a team out since he left. In '92, he lost Darrell Green, arguably one of the best CB's ever, for the season and still had a stout defense, that carried the team to the playoffs.
As much praise as has been heaped on Gregg Williams, he hasn't come close to producing a defense like 'Bone did. 'Bone's defenses always produced turnovers, big time. They won many a game for us.

i think 'bone had superior players.. end of story.. and i do not think williams has had the kind of overall talent on defense that pettibone had. certainly nobody on the d line strikes fear into off coordinators..
if he was that great a coordinator his phone sure did not appear to ring off the hook once he left the skins. by choice ? perhaps.
at the end, you are what your record says you are and pettibone had a fine record as a def coordinator.. i am only saying that people who actually knew him and grew up with him did not consider him any kind of intellect and found his success at the coaching level to be surprising.. jealousy ? maybe..

[Keino]

i think 'bone had superior players.. end of story.. and i do not think williams has had the kind of overall talent on defense that pettibone had. certainly nobody on the d line strikes fear into off coordinators..
if he was that great a coordinator his phone sure did not appear to ring off the hook once he left the skins. by choice ? perhaps.
at the end, you are what your record says you are and pettibone had a fine record as a def coordinator.. i am only saying that people who actually knew him and grew up with him did not consider him any kind of intellect and found his success at the coaching level to be surprising.. jealousy ? maybe..

Superior Players? Shally cmon. Only one of his players is going to be considered for a bust in Canton. I don't think anyone would consider Neil Olkewicz, Greg Manusky et. al superior players. The guy was an incredible Defensive coordinator, and he never had an athlete like Sean Taylor on any of his teams. And a testament to his coaching ability is how he was able to take players and adapt his scheme to the players he had taking full advantage of the attributes they brought to the table. Under Petibone's direction, players like Barry Wilburn shined, and Wilbur Marshall had his best 2 seasons as a pro.

Intelligence and Football Intelligence are very different things. I'll take your word for it that he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but as far as football intelligence, he was/is in the upper escheleon.

Petibone didn't get a fair shake here as so aptly pointed out already for the reasons already stated. Surely you see that don't you?

[openallnight]

Superior Players? Shally cmon. Only one of his players is going to be considered for a bust in Canton. I don't think anyone would consider Neil Olkewicz, Greg Manusky et. al superior players. The guy was an incredible Defensive coordinator, and he never had an athlete like Sean Taylor on any of his teams. And a testament to his coaching ability is how he was able to take players and adapt his scheme to the players he had taking full advantage of the attributes they brought to the table. Under Petibone's direction, players like Barry Wilburn shined, and Wilbur Marshall had his best 2 seasons as a pro.

Intelligence and Football Intelligence are very different things. I'll take your word for it that he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but as far as football intelligence, he was/is in the upper escheleon.

Petibone didn't get a fair shake here as so aptly pointed out already for the reasons already stated. Surely you see that don't you?

I don't want to bash Petibone but, that DLine we had in the 80s could have rivalled the Fearsome FourSome or the Steel Curtain.

In his day Grant was a modern day Griffen.
Butz, ate up more blockers than he did hamburgers. And thats' alot of blockers.
Mann was one of the best DEs in the league.
Manley at his prime was the BEST pass rushing end this league has seen since the days of Deacon Jones.
Olkie was the single most underrated LB to ever play for the skins. All he did was tackle everything carrying a football.
Coleman was a stud 3rd down LB.
We had the premier shutdown corner of the league. And he did happen to be a better "athlete" than Taylor.
With the pass rush we had from the front 4 and a corner that would shutdown your #1 reciever it was hard for teams to do alot against us thru the air.
And with our front 7, rushing was even tougher.

Point being the comparison level in talent between those defenses and this defense isn't even close.

[redskin_rich]

I don't want to bash Petibone but, that DLine we had in the 80s could have rivalled the Fearsome FourSome or the Steel Curtain.

In his day Grant was a modern day Griffen.
Butz, ate up more blockers than he did hamburgers. And thats' alot of blockers.
Mann was one of the best DEs in the league.
Manley at his prime was the BEST pass rushing end this league has seen since the days of Deacon Jones.
Olkie was the single most underrated LB to ever play for the skins. All he did was tackle everything carrying a football.
Coleman was a stud 3rd down LB.
We had the premier shutdown corner of the league. And he did happen to be a better "athlete" than Taylor.
With the pass rush we had from the front 4 and a corner that would shutdown your #1 reciever it was hard for teams to do alot against us thru the air.
And with our front 7, rushing was even tougher.

Point being the comparison level in talent between those defenses and this defense isn't even close.
The '90s version of Petitbone's defense was very close in talent to what we have now but they were much better.

[openallnight]

The '90s version of Petitbone's defense was very close in talent to what we have now but they were much better.
I almost forgot about that D. I'd agree that's a pretty good comparison.
Although, Marshall and Green were just silly

[Keino]

I don't want to bash Petibone but, that DLine we had in the 80s could have rivalled the Fearsome FourSome or the Steel Curtain.

In his day Grant was a modern day Griffen.
Butz, ate up more blockers than he did hamburgers. And thats' alot of blockers.
Mann was one of the best DEs in the league.
Manley at his prime was the BEST pass rushing end this league has seen since the days of Deacon Jones.
Olkie was the single most underrated LB to ever play for the skins. All he did was tackle everything carrying a football.
Coleman was a stud 3rd down LB.
We had the premier shutdown corner of the league. And he did happen to be a better "athlete" than Taylor.
With the pass rush we had from the front 4 and a corner that would shutdown your #1 reciever it was hard for teams to do alot against us thru the air.
And with our front 7, rushing was even tougher.

Point being the comparison level in talent between those defenses and this defense isn't even close.


I think you, like many of our fanbase are overrating some of our players, though, our D line in the 80's was incredible.

Darrell Green is faster than Taylor, but not the physical, imposing speciman that can do a variety of things. I don't feel he is a superior athlete frankly.

Then look at our 91 Defensive Roster and tell me that he had superior talent to work with.

[openallnight]

I think you, like many of our fanbase are overrating some of our players, though, our D line in the 80's was incredible.

Darrell Green is faster than Taylor, but not the physical, imposing speciman that can do a variety of things. I don't feel he is a superior athlete frankly.

Then look at our 91 Defensive Roster and tell me that he had superior talent to work with.

I just think if we had 2 ends anywhere near the one's we had in the 80s our D would be 90% better.
Although, I pretty much agree with you about the 91 team. RedskinRich had pointed this out as well. That team did have Marshall, Mann and Green. Each one of these guys was better at their respective position than anyone on the current team, IMO.

[Syllable]

I've read a lot of much worse horse poo in this thread, but why should a guy who drops aneasy pass on third down get a pass??? CP lays it all on the field, but we win and lose as a team. Everyone is responsable including Gibbs, but I have to say... The concept of fans "calling out" a Hall of Fame coach with three Super Bowl rings for their team is a laughable one. I stand by my coach through good and bad, and I truly believe everyone can do more to help the team.
You shouldn't be coaching if your going to let your actions in the pass defend your problems now....

[BostonSkins]

I'm calling out the offense for being so bad that it's making the defense bad. If you faced our offense in practice every week you wouldn't be able to defend the deep ball either.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I'm calling out the offense for being so bad that it's making the defense bad. If you faced our offense in practice every week you wouldn't be able to defend the deep ball either.
But without our offense, we're 0-5 so far...

[shally]

Superior Players? Shally cmon. Only one of his players is going to be considered for a bust in Canton. I don't think anyone would consider Neil Olkewicz, Greg Manusky et. al superior players. The guy was an incredible Defensive coordinator, and he never had an athlete like Sean Taylor on any of his teams. And a testament to his coaching ability is how he was able to take players and adapt his scheme to the players he had taking full advantage of the attributes they brought to the table. Under Petibone's direction, players like Barry Wilburn shined, and Wilbur Marshall had his best 2 seasons as a pro.

Intelligence and Football Intelligence are very different things. I'll take your word for it that he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but as far as football intelligence, he was/is in the upper escheleon.

Petibone didn't get a fair shake here as so aptly pointed out already for the reasons already stated. Surely you see that don't you?

openallnight answered your response far better than i could ever have... whether or not our defensive players are in the HOF or not is not the issue. they played together as a team flawlessly. i happen to believe that the players OAN mentioned are better than the players we have now.. particularly along the d line..

you think ditka has enough sense to walk and chew gum at the same time? i don't.. but he was a genius when he had the bears team.. he knew enough to get out of their way.. same with pettibone..

and, although his time was short, i feel the same way about him that i do about robiskie.. enough was enough.. you think terry didn't get enough time or is he really not headcoaching material?

[shally]

But without our offense, we're 0-5 so far...

they forgot to show up in 3 games..

[Keino]

openallnight answered your response far better than i could ever have... whether or not our defensive players are in the HOF or not is not the issue. they played together as a team flawlessly. i happen to believe that the players OAN mentioned are better than the players we have now.. particularly along the d line..

you think ditka has enough sense to walk and chew gum at the same time? i don't.. but he was a genius when he had the bears team.. he knew enough to get out of their way.. same with pettibone..

and, although his time was short, i feel the same way about him that i do about robiskie.. enough was enough.. you think terry didn't get enough time or is he really not headcoaching material?

So wait...You don't think coaching had something to do with "they played together as a team flawlessly"? My HOF comment was addressing your comment that they had superior talent. Nobody outside of Redskins fandom remembers those teams for being dominant defensively. People tend to think of the Giants, the Bears and in the late 80's the Eagles.

To put Robiskie and Petibone on the same level is absurd. Up to that point Robiskie had never had a Coordinator position, so of course he wasn't HC material.

As for knowing enough to get out of their way, you can believe that if you want, but Petibone deserves ALOT of credit for the successes of our defenses. It wasn't just "let the talent work for you" he had to coach them up.

[shally]

So wait...You don't think coaching had something to do with "they played together as a team flawlessly"? My HOF comment was addressing your comment that they had superior talent. Nobody outside of Redskins fandom remembers those teams for being dominant defensively. People tend to think of the Giants, the Bears and in the late 80's the Eagles.

To put Robiskie and Petibone on the same level is absurd. Up to that point Robiskie had never had a Coordinator position, so of course he wasn't HC material.

As for knowing enough to get out of their way, you can believe that if you want, but Petibone deserves ALOT of credit for the successes of our defenses. It wasn't just "let the talent work for you" he had to coach them up.

he had a mature, heady team.. i also think they had more talent than this unit
especially along the defensive line.. talent makes a coach look better than he really is-- that was what my comment re ditka was about. you think mike was a great defensive coach ? he was an idiot. but he had great players..

if pettibone was so great why did he not get even a sniff of a follow up position? even buges got 2 head coaching positions after the redskins..

you cannot (or i cannot) argue with the job pettibone's defenses did while he was a coordinator. i will give him that.. i just do not think he was cut out to be a head coach and one season was enough.. he had a shot

[SpicyMcHaggis]

they forgot to show up in 3 games..
the D did in 5 games...

[shally]

the D did in 5 games...

no.. the jags had 3 miles of offense in that game.. brad moved the vikes up and down the field in game 1.. both dallas and the giants converted on third downs, on big plays and on long drives when they needed.. the d did not show up for 5 games.. or at least for significant parts of 5 games..
they are producing no turnovers. they are ranked 28th overall, i believe..
that is not showing up as far as i am concerned

[SpicyMcHaggis]

no.. the jags had 3 miles of offense in that game.. brad moved the vikes up and down the field in game 1.. both dallas and the giants converted on third downs, on big plays and on long drives when they needed.. the d did not show up for 5 games.. or at least for significant parts of 5 games..
they are producing no turnovers. they are ranked 28th overall, i believe..
that is not showing up as far as i am concerned
that's what I meant actually..Defense: 0 good games, Offense: 2 good games

[BostonSkins]

the D did in 5 games...


That's my point, it's because they are practicing against our offense. They can stop check down passes all day, can't stop anything deep because our offense can't do it!!!

[shally]

that's what I meant actually..Defense: 0 good games, Offense: 2 good games

on that, we definitely agree.. 2 good games out of the offense

[redskin_rich]

he had a mature, heady team.. i also think they had more talent than this unit
especially along the defensive line.. talent makes a coach look better than he really is-- that was what my comment re ditka was about. you think mike was a great defensive coach ? he was an idiot. but he had great players..

if pettibone was so great why did he not get even a sniff of a follow up position? even buges got 2 head coaching positions after the redskins..

you cannot (or i cannot) argue with the job pettibone's defenses did while he was a coordinator. i will give him that.. i just do not think he was cut out to be a head coach and one season was enough.. he had a shot
I'm pretty sure Petitbone had quite a few offers while he coached with the Skins and after but he just decided to retire after he was fired here.

This converstion has gotten ridiculous and I am not going to argue it further, so think whatever you want. I think we have ourselves a new Pearl Harbor Crew.

[shally]

That's my point, it's because they are practicing against our offense. They can stop check down passes all day, can't stop anything deep because our offense can't do it!!!

that is a slant i had never thought of... i am not sure it is valid, but it is sure a different way of looking at things..

[redskin_rich]

That's my point, it's because they are practicing against our offense. They can stop check down passes all day, can't stop anything deep because our offense can't do it!!!
That is absurd. You do realize that the defense works against a scout team every week and that scout team is QB'ed by Jason Campbell.

[shally]

I'm pretty sure Petitbone had quite a few offers while he coached with the Skins and after but he just decided to retire after he was fired here.

This converstion has gotten ridiculous and I am not going to argue it further, so think whatever you want. I think we have ourselves a new Pearl Harbor Crew.

a very apt comparison.. one was that was made by rich tandler.. because we had lost lavender, peters and others we were vulnerable to the big play. plus curtis jordan and mark murphy were glacial in the deep secondary.BUT while they might have gotten beaten, they got turnovers. that is one big difference. we are creating zero turnovers from the secondary..

we do not know what offers pettibone had. it is only an assumption.

[BurgundyNGold]

That is absurd. You do realize that the defense works against a scout team every week and that scout team is QB'ed by Jason Campbell.
OMG! That must mean... Jason Campbell can't go deep either!

We're doomed.

:D

[shally]

OMG! That must mean... Jason Campbell can't go deep either!

We're doomed.

:D

nope.. it is just that saunders doesn't want to give away his playbook, even to the scout team...:lol1: plain vanilla, all the time..

[redskin_rich]

OMG! That must mean... Jason Campbell can't go deep either!

We're doomed.

:D
LOL, I knew that was coming. There has to be somebody at Redskins Park that can throw the ball 40 yards or more. I can do it maybe 10 times a day before my shoulder gives out and I'll work for free.

[ChiefPowhatan17]

3rd and 1 put Duckett in the game. that's what he is here for, don't pass it. Duckett shouldn't be called out if he doesn't get a chance. I still think this acquisition can be a lucrative one.

[redskinz#1fan]

OMG! That must mean... Jason Campbell can't go deep either!

We're doomed.

:D

Now you will hear all the Ramsey supporters chime in with.....................I told ya'll that we should have kept Ramsey. He was the greatest gunslinger that we've ever had! :rolleyes:

[redskinz#1fan]

3rd and 1 put Duckett in the game. that's what he is here for, don't pass it. Duckett shouldn't be called out if he doesn't get a chance. I still think this acquisition can be a lucrative one.


I still have dreams of a Duckett & Seller backfield! That's a lot of meat in the backfield. God forbid they get going.....there's no stopping that runaway train! Especially not a stinking 3rd & 1! :banghead: