Indictment of Dan Snyder

[PennSkinsFan]

Since the year Daniel Snyder actually assumed control of the Redskins, let's consider the following.

1. We have made a major shift in philosophy, rebuking 'general' and more 'expansive' NFL team building philosophy of building through the draft and supplementing a little by free agency, with an all out assault on free agency. Each year we spend big. Each year we overhaul the roster. Yet nothing improves, except a blip here and there. Since Snyder came we regularly trade or spend draft choices on free agents and veterans who have had only some impact and many who are no longer here.

2. Snyder has gone through 5 coaches in 6 years, 4 defensive coordinators, has jacked up NFL coaching salaries way beyond what any NFL franchise would have imagined, yet we get no results. Millions and million spent on assistants, yet otu defense is ranked 30th and our offense is completely anemic. I thought they were the masterminds?

3. Since Snyder has become owner, we have pushed the salary cap to its max, bent rules to fit in the cap, yet, with the powerhouse free agencts and spending level to the maximum, we have one playoff season in 6 years, which is more and more looking like a fluke.

4. Eve Joe Gibbs has a losing record this time back, standing at just 19-22.

5. Snyder has complied an awful 39-50 record, while rasing ticket prices and parking, raking in huge amounts of profit, while fielding a consistent disappointing mediocre team, year in and year out.

6. Despite what many NFL experts say, Vinny Cerrato for some odd reason continues to have Snyder's confidence, something he has not earned with any success.

Looking at the facts and just the facts, not emotions, you can't help but look at the lack of success under this ownership.

What I think can be done to fix it?

1. Fire Vinny Cerrato and hire a proven, professional General Manager to work along side Joe Gibbs and begin a stabilization process with the roster, personnel and organization. Charge the new GM with the power to recreate what we need to do to win and build consistency within the organization.

2. Stop the roster overhauls, it is causing complete dysfunction. There is no cohesiveness, no sense of chemistry because players. Every time players begin to gel, a major factor of that unit is let go, IE Ryan Clark and Antonio Pierce, leaving gaping holes. The philosophy that Gregg William can plug any player into his system, that it is not player based system, is proving to be wrong after two season of taking defensive hits and not retaining our own. The revolving door at Redskins Park has become a plague in itself. There can be no sense of team when so many new players come, and veterans built in the system, depart.

3. Stop relying on the free agency philosophy. It is strangling this franchise. get back to an even keeled mix of draft picks and lower priced free agents. As the author of the Youth Report, it is a depressing year to do it, because in essence, we have little to talk about when it comes to rookies and second year players. There is not one successful team in the NFL right now that have built their team based on the Redskins free agency first policy. The past 4 years is a STINGING rebuke of that mentality.

4. End the philosophy that young players need to sit. That is compeltely ridciulous. This is not 1982 Joe. Today's young players are head over heels in athletic ability and talent. Develope them where many teams do, by playing ont he field.

5. Drop the player loyalty. Hey, it is OK to have a player to be friends with and be loyal to, but to the detriment of the team. You play those who are most effective and if certain players are not effective, then give another an opportunity, just like any other NFL coach would do. There is NO MORE 'Redskins" type players so drop the phrase. This is the new NFL, it is about money and we have been building a roster for 3 years with 'Redskins Type' players and we have gotten NO WHERE! I don't want Redskins type players anymore, I want players who will get to the QB, cover the WRs, not commit penalties, exercise simply basic fundamentals when it comes to tackling, and players that want to be on the field and play with heart. These 'Redskins Type" players w ehave been building for the past three eyasr have not had teh heart every game, have been amazingly inconsistent, and fail to execute basic fundamentals. No thanks.

6. Finally, with the new professional GM, let's stop winging it and build a Team Plan for now and the future, so we don't makes moves like giving up a third rounder for a RB that has carried the ball 7 times in 9 games. Facts are facts, Snyder vowed to ressurrect this franchise and in 6 seasons we are 39-50. Redskisn fans are consistently disappointed, depressed and subject to ridicule. It has been a long time since there has been a winning attitude, consistentcy and resurrection of a great franchise. Mr. Snyder has failed to do that thus far, and prospects do not look good.

7. In essence. Mr. Snyder vowed to ressurect this great franchise but 6 years into it, well, it is just not fun at all being a fan of this team and each and every NFL season seem ot get longer and longer with overlapping disappointnent and disgust. That is what we as Redskins fans have gotten, all with regular price increases, go figure .... When looking at teams like the Texans, Lions, and Cardinals, the only thing that separates us is the incredibel fanbase and optimism of the fans. The thing that separates us from New England, Chicago, and teams like that is a real team plan to build.

Mr. Snyder, we have been an incrediably loyal fanbase, enthusiastic, energetic at times, filled with undying faith, year in and year out, but Mr. Snyder, the back is beginning to break. Please change the philosophy of this franchise before we actually do become like the Detroit Lions. We don't want a consistent loser and the laughing stock of the NFC East. Were well on our way.

Ok Snyderites, defend your owner and this current management philosophy, just remember to look at the record.

[redskin_rich]

The team sucked for 6 years before Snyder bought them and that was with lots of draft picks. Unfortunately, Casserly was horrible at drafting players, much worse than Vinny, Danny, Joe or whoever is drafting now.

[Patrick]

For the pass two years - Dan Synder has had a "boss" so to speak - Joe Gibbs.
He does just what Joe tells him to do - nothing more and nothing less.

[CNYSkinFan]

The only thing that will ever defend Dan Snyder to the fans is a L4th Lombardi trophy.

I give Snyder credit for going out and getting Joe back.

Other then that I have ahard time defending Snyder, Cerrato, or Gibbs second reign. We are ina bad way and seasons like this are undefendable.

[joethefan]

Well we all thought danny was a genius by going to get Gibbs and we all thought that Gibbs would tighten the screws, but it seems that Gibbs has in fact drank the kool aide as to the Philisophy of the managment system Gibbs Vinnie Danny. Evenwhen Gibbs knew that an effective GM got him 3 SB rings.

Danny has opened the floodgates to Gibbs and has given gibbs whatever he wanted in his Quest to win a SB and still hasn't happened..then the Year that they show promise, you turn around and set the team back a year by bringing in another Offense as if that;s what we needed......Although I couldn't stand danny in the past for what he's dione to this franchise, but I'm even more pissed because Gibbs prostituted himself and went along with the plan....and the plan in my opinion is not win games, it's to make money....

And I was the one that said in the past, that if this doesn't work, the entire fan base will Side with Gibbs and hate Danny for another scheme to take thier money..but Gibbs has in fact tarnished his reputation and I have no idea how he canget it back.....the internet is the last thing that is danny's best friend because the fans know what's going on football and financial wise with this team...Gibbs didn't have to deal with that in th past..One washington Post reporter told all he wanted the fans to know...now we see it all....

Thanks Danny, thanks....

[Brokenstriker]

two major factors to note, one already noted ...

The Skins weren't top tier when he bought the team

If your building campaigns are founded on glitz ... you probably won't invest in working class blue collar linemen ... the foundation of virtually every championship football team in history ... Our Redskins keep buying sports cars ... and what they really need is a heavy duty pick-up truck (or perhaps a "diesel")

[Ibleedburgundy]

This is the final year my family will have season tickets. Snyder doubled the asking price since our last 5 year contract and it was already too much. His sales representative has behaved like a used car salesman fishing for a sucker. Hopefully those seats will go to a die hard Redskins fan. I will miss going to the games but I guess Danny needs a new helicopter or something so good luck next year 12th man, I'll be pulling for you from my couch.

[Biggie]

The team sucked for 6 years before Snyder bought them and that was with lots of draft picks. Unfortunately, Casserly was horrible at drafting players, much worse than Vinny, Danny, Joe or whoever is drafting now.

The Redskins need a Bill Polian or Ron Wolf type. Somebody who is immune to the wrath of Snyder and has the fortitude and patience to build a team through the draft.

[redskin_rich]

The Redskins need a Bill Polian or Ron Wolf type. Somebody who is immune to the wrath of Snyder and has the fortitude and patience to build a team through the draft.
Supposedly, they made a run at Wolf but he wanted a 10% share of the team and some kind of guarantee that he couldn't be fired. Snyder balked and that was the end of that. Wolf lives in Annapolis and it would be a great move to hire him.

[Dolla Bill]

Supposedly, they made a run at Wolf but he wanted a 10% share of the team and some kind of guarantee that he couldn't be fired. Snyder balked and that was the end of that. Wolf lives in Annapolis and it would be a great move to hire him.


Man, I wish I had that kind of guarantee in my contracts :D

[AliBabba]

Well said PSF. We really are in need of an overhaul of the system. From the top to the bottom they need to analyze the philosophy they have followed and recognize the flaws. The present course is not sustainable and we can make our first adjustment at 4:40 EST this afternoon when Joe Gibbs presents young Jason Campbell as the new captain of this ship.

Let JC join the few other homegrown talents we have on the roster and lets see if spending big money on guys like Archuleta, Trotter, and Lloyd really makes sense or if it is better to develop your own talent such as Lemar Marshall, Antonio Pierce, and Champ Bailey.

[RedskinsDave]

I have said it before and I will say it again, the problem is that Snyder brought in Gibbs and sold him on HIS way of doing things. It doesn't matter who is in charge when the way they do things are still the same. Until they hire someone who tells them that spending money on free agents is a bad thing and draft picks are a good thing, we will see more of this for years to come.

[joethefan]

I have said it before and I will say it again, the problem is that Snyder brought in Gibbs and sold him on HIS way of doing things. It doesn't matter who is in charge when the way they do things are still the same. Until they hire someone who tells them that spending money on free agents is a bad thing and draft picks are a good thing, we will see more of this for years to come.that's what i've been saying....great post...


gibbs basically prostituted himself and allowed danny and the boys to influence him...when HE KNEW that wasn't the way it got him to the SB!!!!!

[oldskinfan]

I can't defend Dan Snyder on the Redskins' record, and, like everyone else, I get intoxicated every other year or so with the big splashy free agent signings...thinking I would have done the same thing myself.

Then I realize something that Snyder and I have in common - aside from maybe flag football in high school and the occasional back yard game of touch, we are not "football" guys....we are the proverbial jock sniffer fans who live vicariously through the weekend warriors who seemingly endure inhuman pain and punishment while sometimes making breathtaking plays of strength, speed and skill in this game of Football in the NFL... this is the closest thing to what it must have been like for gladiators in the Coliseum in Rome.

But the difference between me (the common fan) and Dan Snyder (aside from about $1B) is that I know I'm not made for the world of the NFL. I can armchair quarterfack all I want, but I can't related to the psyche, the emotions, and overall the complex dynamics of the NFL player and team. I know that enough that I would try to take myself out of the day to day equation and hire someone who can do a better job of managing the team.

Great line in the movie working girl by Joan Cusak to Melanie Griffith:
"Sometimes, I dance around my apartment in my underwear... Doesn't make me Madonna...never will"

P.S. not referring to poster "joethefan" just coincidence I used that term to refer to the average Redskin fan

[Axegrinder]

I'm hearin' you [Mark]and I agree.
I'm tired of the same old,same old....

We need a team that's hungry,with coaches who are hungrier.
These guys are set for the rest of their lives.I'd rather have someone who has the fear of failure.Someone willing to be smart,yet willing to adjust.Someone,like Gibbs 1.0,who didn't have a big name and job security.He earned his way,but now it looks as if there's no sense of urgency.
Has he mellowed?

He has brought us a team of good citizens,but we like winners too.One season of winning is not enough.

[joethefan]

I can't defend Dan Snyder on the Redskins' record, and, like everyone else, I get intoxicated every other year or so with the big splashy free agent signings...thinking I would have done the same thing myself.

Then I realize something that Snyder and I have in common - aside from maybe flag football in high school and the occasional back yard game of touch, we are not "football" guys....we are the proverbial jock sniffer fans who live vicariously through the weekend warriors who seemingly endure inhuman pain and punishment while sometimes making breathtaking plays of strength, speed and skill in this game of Football in the NFL... this is the closest thing to what it must have been like for gladiators in the Coliseum in Rome.

But the difference between me (the common fan) and Dan Snyder (aside from about $1B) is that I know I'm not made for the world of the NFL. I can armchair quarterfack all I want, but I can't related to the psyche, the emotions, and overall the complex dynamics of the NFL player and team. I know that enough that I would try to take myself out of the day to day equation and hire someone who can do a better job of managing the team.

Great line in the movie working girl by Joan Cusak to Melanie Griffith:
"Sometimes, I dance around my apartment in my underwear... Doesn't make me Madonna...never will"

P.S. not referring to poster "joethefan" just coincidence I used that term to refer to the average Redskin fanglad you said that...LOL cuase I was about to run up in ya!!!!!:sfight: ...LOLOL

[silverspring]

I agree and disagree with your post. First of all, I acknowledge that snyder made some major mistakes in the first several years of his ownership, but I also acknowledge that he has learned from his mistakes. He has stepped back. He has handed the top level decision making over to the a man that has proven success and that everyone in football respects. I salute the way he has willingly put money into the coaching staff and without a doubt he is willing to spend whatever he can to make his team better. In summary he is doing his part.

I completely agree that our philosophy of building through free agency is the wrong way to develop a team that is good year in and year out. It takes away cohesiveness and encourages turnover. The cost of mistakes with the free agency model is much higher than the draft. If you get a dud with a draft pick it hurts but not nearly as much as a free agency dud, a team becomes more married to a free agency star because they always come with a big money contract.

I also agree that we need a real gm. But where I differ from you is that I don't put all the blame in snyder's lap. Saying snyder is totally responsible also says that you think his bringing back gibbs was another mistake. I have no idea what the deal was with gibbs when he came on board, but I am pretty sure part of the deal was him having the responsibility of personnel decisions. Sorry, I can't knock snyder for handing gibbs a signed check who would have disagreed with that decision. I think Gibbs has wasted and spent more in free agency in the last 3 years then snyder did in the first 3. Maybe snyder pitched the free agency philosophy to gibbs, but gibbs is his own man, and he is the head honcho decision maker. Gibbs is responsible for these decisions. The problem is gibbs is a great coach, but had no experience with the gm stuff. Not only does he have no experience, but when he was a successful coach free agency wasn't even around. So now gibbs is half gm half coach. He handed over what he does well to al saunders and is focusing on what he doesn't know how to do and has proven in the last 3 years that he is just frankly bad at it. Gibbs needs recognize his failure. He needs to either become the coach or step down. And then we need to hire a gm. We need to stop selling draft picks. Everyone needs to realize that if we do hire a gm that gm isn't going to look good, but rather bad, for years since we have sold away our future. We are going to have to show discipline and suffer through a couple years without any new toys to do this, but I see no other way.
I don't think vinnie is really that big of a problem. I think he just does what he is told. He is an enabler. I could take him or leave him, we just need the person telling him what to do to be that experienced gm.

While I think the coaching spending spree is a good thing, I think we got too many egos on the staff and that is a problem. We need better central leadership and we need coaches that want to develop players not only work with finished products. I am sick of genius coaches who need certain personnel to make their system work. If these coaches are such geniuses they would mold the system around the talent they have and maximize our talent.

I completely disagree with the whole drop the player loyalty thing. This is exactly the problem that creates constant turnover and encourages free agency spending. Over the last 3 years gibbs has preached the "true redskin" bit but his actions are the opposite. I would rather overpay for a player that we developed and has shown success in our system than some supposed superstar free agent that has never taken a snap in our system but looks great on paper. Sure we can't go overboard but I think we have shown that by "saving" money by not resigning players like pierce and clark we end up costing ourselves more not only in cash but because the replacements simply don't perform and because of the time lapse it takes to get them to work in our system. Why does adam archuleta deserve the big pay day but ryan clark doesn't? How can we say clark didn't earn his starting job? The problem we need to see is that we don't always need a superstar in every position, I would rather have a team that works well together. If we had kept pierce we wouldn't have had to spend most of the offseason shuffling around linebackers trying to find a fit and wasting a draft pick on rocky. Instead the coaches could have spent that time fine tuning a system that already works. The lesson here is that turnover costs more than just money.

[shally]

Since the year Daniel Snyder actually assumed control of the Redskins, let's consider the following.

1. We have made a major shift in philosophy, rebuking 'general' and more 'expansive' NFL team building philosophy of building through the draft and supplementing a little by free agency, with an all out assault on free agency. Each year we spend big. Each year we overhaul the roster. Yet nothing improves, except a blip here and there. Since Snyder came we regularly trade or spend draft choices on free agents and veterans who have had only some impact and many who are no longer here.

2. Snyder has gone through 5 coaches in 6 years, 4 defensive coordinators, has jacked up NFL coaching salaries way beyond what any NFL franchise would have imagined, yet we get no results. Millions and million spent on assistants, yet otu defense is ranked 30th and our offense is completely anemic. I thought they were the masterminds?

3. Since Snyder has become owner, we have pushed the salary cap to its max, bent rules to fit in the cap, yet, with the powerhouse free agencts and spending level to the maximum, we have one playoff season in 6 years, which is more and more looking like a fluke.

4. Eve Joe Gibbs has a losing record this time back, standing at just 19-22.

5. Snyder has complied an awful 39-50 record, while rasing ticket prices and parking, raking in huge amounts of profit, while fielding a consistent disappointing mediocre team, year in and year out.

6. Despite what many NFL experts say, Vinny Cerrato for some odd reason continues to have Snyder's confidence, something he has not earned with any success.

Looking at the facts and just the facts, not emotions, you can't help but look at the lack of success under this ownership.

What I think can be done to fix it?

1. Fire Vinny Cerrato and hire a proven, professional General Manager to work along side Joe Gibbs and begin a stabilization process with the roster, personnel and organization. Charge the new GM with the power to recreate what we need to do to win and build consistency within the organization.

2. Stop the roster overhauls, it is causing complete dysfunction. There is no cohesiveness, no sense of chemistry because players. Every time players begin to gel, a major factor of that unit is let go, IE Ryan Clark and Antonio Pierce, leaving gaping holes. The philosophy that Gregg William can plug any player into his system, that it is not player based system, is proving to be wrong after two season of taking defensive hits and not retaining our own. The revolving door at Redskins Park has become a plague in itself. There can be no sense of team when so many new players come, and veterans built in the system, depart.

3. Stop relying on the free agency philosophy. It is strangling this franchise. get back to an even keeled mix of draft picks and lower priced free agents. As the author of the Youth Report, it is a depressing year to do it, because in essence, we have little to talk about when it comes to rookies and second year players. There is not one successful team in the NFL right now that have built their team based on the Redskins free agency first policy. The past 4 years is a STINGING rebuke of that mentality.

4. End the philosophy that young players need to sit. That is compeltely ridciulous. This is not 1982 Joe. Today's young players are head over heels in athletic ability and talent. Develope them where many teams do, by playing ont he field.

5. Drop the player loyalty. Hey, it is OK to have a player to be friends with and be loyal to, but to the detriment of the team. You play those who are most effective and if certain players are not effective, then give another an opportunity, just like any other NFL coach would do. There is NO MORE 'Redskins" type players so drop the phrase. This is the new NFL, it is about money and we have been building a roster for 3 years with 'Redskins Type' players and we have gotten NO WHERE! I don't want Redskins type players anymore, I want players who will get to the QB, cover the WRs, not commit penalties, exercise simply basic fundamentals when it comes to tackling, and players that want to be on the field and play with heart. These 'Redskins Type" players w ehave been building for the past three eyasr have not had teh heart every game, have been amazingly inconsistent, and fail to execute basic fundamentals. No thanks.

6. Finally, with the new professional GM, let's stop winging it and build a Team Plan for now and the future, so we don't makes moves like giving up a third rounder for a RB that has carried the ball 7 times in 9 games. Facts are facts, Snyder vowed to ressurrect this franchise and in 6 seasons we are 39-50. Redskisn fans are consistently disappointed, depressed and subject to ridicule. It has been a long time since there has been a winning attitude, consistentcy and resurrection of a great franchise. Mr. Snyder has failed to do that thus far, and prospects do not look good.

7. In essence. Mr. Snyder vowed to ressurect this great franchise but 6 years into it, well, it is just not fun at all being a fan of this team and each and every NFL season seem ot get longer and longer with overlapping disappointnent and disgust. That is what we as Redskins fans have gotten, all with regular price increases, go figure .... When looking at teams like the Texans, Lions, and Cardinals, the only thing that separates us is the incredibel fanbase and optimism of the fans. The thing that separates us from New England, Chicago, and teams like that is a real team plan to build.

Mr. Snyder, we have been an incrediably loyal fanbase, enthusiastic, energetic at times, filled with undying faith, year in and year out, but Mr. Snyder, the back is beginning to break. Please change the philosophy of this franchise before we actually do become like the Detroit Lions. We don't want a consistent loser and the laughing stock of the NFC East. Were well on our way.

Ok Snyderites, defend your owner and this current management philosophy, just remember to look at the record.


repsectfully, you are wrong about snyder. for the past 3 years he has given control to gibbs.. we all know that.
before that, you would have a valid point, but if you want to blame someone for the mess that is the present team, that goes at the feet of gibbs. pure and simple
joe may be inthe hall of fame, but, honestly, he has not done a hall of fame job with this edition.
the only thing you can blame snyder for is making a gazillion dollars off the fan base. but that is life inthe nfl.. the rest of the major decisions from A to Z belong to gibbs..

[joethefan]

The problem is that no one wants to coach....if you draft guys, they have to be on a certain level for you to even get them. These guys don't wanna coach. they want guys that already are legit and pay forever to them....that's our problem. We don't wanny coach.

[shally]

The problem is that no one wants to coach....if you draft guys, they have to be on a certain level for you to even get them. These guys don't wanna coach. they want guys that already are legit and pay forever to them....that's our problem. We don't wanny coach.

they do not seem to be able to coach... for millions of dollars... that is just plain rotten

[Axegrinder]

Have we figured out the personality of this team yet?

[shally]

Have we figured out the personality of this team yet?


dysfunctional

[The Jake]

If Snyder really wants to prove he wants to win, he needs to sell the franchise. I don't know if it's karma or what but this needs to end. I understand he loves the Redskins or whatever but I just don't care anymore, even if he has a redskins emblem tattooed on his butt at this point. It's not working and a change needs to be made. He's not a personable guy, which is a big deal when you are an NFL owner and the media is involved in your daily life. I blame the media bashing of our franchise on him for being socially inept. This also is why cerrato is still around, he trusts no one and it kills his decision making. I don't think he's a fair owner either, he kills us as a fanbase with price gouging, $6 bottles of water at the game? Sweet Lord that's incredibly outlandish. Who does he think we are? But nevertheless we pay and kill ourselves every season watching the ineptitude that is the Redskins, just waiting for the next year to bring vindication. I, for one, am about done waiting for Mr. Snyder to put his money somewhere other than into over-the-hill players' pockets.

As for this season, it seems like a classic case of too many chefs in the kitchen and nobody is really in charge.

[Axegrinder]

dysfunctional
Not what I was looking for,although you are accurate.

[PennSkinsFan]

repsectfully, you are wrong about snyder. for the past 3 years he has given control to gibbs.. we all know that.
before that, you would have a valid point, but if you want to blame someone for the mess that is the present team, that goes at the feet of gibbs. pure and simple
joe may be inthe hall of fame, but, honestly, he has not done a hall of fame job with this edition.
the only thing you can blame snyder for is making a gazillion dollars off the fan base. but that is life inthe nfl.. the rest of the major decisions from A to Z belong to gibbs..

In reality we and you really have no idea how the front office works and how involved Snyder really is. So to dismiss based on that point is moot. Gibbs has stated that Snyder is involved in many decision. Gibbs contradicts that. Beyond all, the mentality and approach to team building is, was and will be Daniel Snyder's. You can say it is on Gibbs and to a poitn it is, but the philosophy established by Snyder before Gibbs returns is essentially the same now and after a 6 year track to look at, it has failed and failed miserably.

[PennSkinsFan]

dysfunctional

and is started with Snyder and rests there right now. If Joe Gibbs can not fix the mess, who can? Or was Joe Gibbs simply sold on the prevalent philosophy which has produced this mess?

[joethefan]

they do not seem to be able to coach... for millions of dollars... that is just plain rotten
well it seems to me that ither teams are coaching thier players and their players are makeing plays...the Club med training camp syndrome is crazy.....Gibbs never went club Med in training camp, in the years he won SB's so if that is and should be your goal then why are we going soft on these players....Remember what i said earlier "He Drank the dirty Water!!!" That Snyder and him emps brewed up. and now he's poisoned and cannot throw his pride up and do what he feels is best.

[Axegrinder]

and is started with Snyder and rests there right now. If Joe Gibbs can not fix the mess, who can? Or was Joe Gibbs simply sold on the prevalent philosophy which has produced this mess?
We need to emulate the Pats.They are the closest version to the Redskins under Gibbs 1.0.

[Skinzlover223]

I may be in the minority on this, but I remember that everyone use to complain that Dan was too involved and didn't know football. With Gibbs Dan just does what they say, (I think the biggest evidence is TO, they must of chained Dan but in a chair until Dallas signed him) Gibbs/Williams/Saunders and Vinny made some awful football moves. Gibbs is still making them IMO by not playing Campbell. So what can Dan do and not take flack for it. Granted I do think a GM is long over due.

[Taylor21TheUndertaker]

Snyder puts the money back into the team which is all you can ask for from an owner. #1 owner in the league? Quite possibly.

[redskin_rich]

We need to emulate the Pats.They are the closest version to the Redskins under Gibbs 1.0.
Not close at all. Gibbs never had a Tom Brady and without him, the Pats would be an average team with no rings.

[Axegrinder]

Are the new ticket prices justified?

[PennSkinsFan]

Snyder puts the money back into the team which is all you can ask for from an owner. #1 owner in the league? Quite possibly.

How can you say that? By putting money into the team every year, bringing in new player syear ina nd year out, changing the rosters at several positions every year, THAT IS THE PROBLEM. This team has not chemsitry together. This team has no youth plan, this team has no 'team' feeling, because we consistently let home grown guys go for new free agents that take tiem to mesh with current players and by the time that meshing occurs, others depart. Era of free agency? yes. BUT, other teams attempt to keep their own free agents, other teams build as well though the draft, we don't.

Dan Snyder is a great owner in that he wants to win. I don't question that. I question the appraoch. I question the path wer eon. I question the record we built.

[joethefan]

Are the new ticket prices justified?i'd rather pay 4.00 to got to a good JV game then give snyder anymore money....

[joethefan]

Dan Snyder is a great owner in that he wants to win. I don't question that. I question the appraoch. I question the path wer eon. I question the record we built.

good points....I question the philosophy

[shally]

Not close at all. Gibbs never had a Tom Brady and without him, the Pats would be an average team with no rings.


all the more reasonto play JC.. maybe he is the next brady ? you never know with him onthe bench

[Taylor21TheUndertaker]

How can you say that? By putting money into the team every year, bringing in new player syear ina nd year out, changing the rosters at several positions every year, THAT IS THE PROBLEM. This team has not chemsitry together. This team has no youth plan, this team has no 'team' feeling, because we consistently let home grown guys go for new free agents that take tiem to mesh with current players and by the time that meshing occurs, others depart. Era of free agency? yes. BUT, other teams attempt to keep their own free agents, other teams build as well though the draft, we don't.

Dan Snyder is a great owner in that he wants to win. I don't question that. I question the appraoch. I question the path wer eon. I question the record we built.

And Gibbs stating numerous times about identifying and keeping "core" Redskins was merely a load of bull? I dont buy for a minute that building through the draft is going to amount to a hill of beans for us(although essential for the small markets), if we pick up the right free agents (like maybe Ricky Manning instead of Arch and keep Clark),then he'd be a genius. So maybe spending another boatload on a GM would be the way to go.

[Axegrinder]

Not close at all. Gibbs never had a Tom Brady and without him, the Pats would be an average team with no rings.
I see that you're focusing on 1 player.What about the average joes who make up the rest of the unit?Who was Belicheck before he got his rings?
They're a big market franchise whose best player was a late round pick.

[oldskinfan]

glad you said that...LOL cuase I was about to run up in ya!!!!!:sfight: ...LOLOL

Hey Joe, in a fair fight, I think you could take the Danny ;-)

[redskin_rich]

I see that you're focusing on 1 player.What about the average joes who make up the rest of the unit?Who was Belicheck before he got his rings?
They're a big market franchise whose best player was a late round pick.
A coach with a losing record.

[Axegrinder]

A coach with a losing record.
Exactly,he was hungry.

[redskin_rich]

Exactly,he was hungry.
I understand your point but I still believe that Gibbs has some fire left in him. He isn't golfing on Wednesdays like a certain coach that was here.

[RedskinsDave]

Snyder puts the money back into the team which is all you can ask for from an owner. #1 owner in the league? Quite possibly.

You're on the wrong board. We don't need to kiss up over here. #1, LOL.

[Axegrinder]

I understand your point but I still believe that Gibbs has some fire left in him. He isn't golfing on Wednesdays like a certain coach that was here.
Where's the fire?
The team continuously shows up flat.He's not emotional.
All he does is make excuses for the team and his qb.

As for the OBC,he was just like his players....getting paid!

[Ohiofan]

Snyder went out and got Gibbs and gave him all the power Gibbs wanted. There is zero evidence that Snyder does anything other than what Joe says. You want to criticize someone, aim at Gibbs. Other than bringing Gibbs back, there is nothing to blame on Snyder for the past three seasons.

[smoak]

While I can't defend all of Snyders decisions (ESPECIALLY as they relate to the squeezing the fan base for every penny), I think some of this is just sour grapes b/c we aren't performing up to expectations. All this nonsense about Danny has corrupted Gibbs is laughable. Gibbs has always preferred experienced veteran players and has always been loyal to "his guys". That is his way and he has earned the right to do it his way. The problem is everyone got visions of gumdrops in their eyes about an INSTANT Super Bowl, but the NFL doesn't work that way. We have to earn it and you earn by making a sound plan and sticking with it. Consistency doesn't mean you can flinch at the first sign that something goes wrong.

But again, I am saddened by the way the fanbase is milked for every penny. I just see the lack of on-field success as a separate issue and people are only complaining b/c we're losing. We made some drastic change and it is unreasonable to expect that it would be a seamless transition. It is not a coincidence that our most successful season in recent memory was after our quietest off season in recent memory. The key for '07 (IMO) is to add CHEAP role players and rookies and get more from the current roster. Archuletta, Lloyd, the Oline, the secondary, Cooley are all capable of playing better. The entire team is capable of playing better.

[smoak]

Where's the fire?
The team continuously shows up flat.He's not emotional.
All he does is make excuses for the team and his qb.

As for the OBC,he was just like his players....getting paid!

Fir can be shown in a lot of ways. Turning over a table is only going to be effective after so many times before you look like a class clown.

[RedskinsDave]

While I can't defend all of Snyders decisions (ESPECIALLY as they relate to the squeezing the fan base for every penny), I think some of this is just sour grapes b/c we aren't performing up to expectations. All this nonsense about Danny has corrupted Gibbs is laughable. Gibbs has always preferred experienced veteran players and has always been loyal to "his guys". That is his way and he has earned the right to do it his way. The problem is everyone got visions of gumdrops in their eyes about an INSTANT Super Bowl, but the NFL doesn't work that way. We have to earn it and you earn by making a sound plan and sticking with it. Consistency doesn't mean you can flinch at the first sign that something goes wrong.


How is it nonsense? Did we go out and make a splash in free agency? YES Did we got out and make moves that cost draft picks? YES This is how Snyder did things and Gibbs came in and kept the ball rolling. I don't think anyone is flinching at the first sign something went wrong. I think too many people ate the gum drops after last year when something finally went right.

[Axegrinder]

Fir can be shown in a lot of ways. Turning over a table is only going to be effective after so many times before you look like a class clown.
What about benching and cutting players?

[smoak]

How is it nonsense? Did we go out and make a splash in free agency? YES Did we got out and make moves that cost draft picks? YES This is how Snyder did things and Gibbs came in and kept the ball rolling. I don't think anyone is flinching at the first sign something went wrong. I think too many people ate the gum drops after last year when something finally went right.

We can agree to disagree b/c frankly I don't care if anyone agrees with me. I am not trying to win you or anyone over, but there is plenty of evidence that Gibbs 1.0 operated in a similar manner to Gibbs 2.0 in terms of how players are used and valued. There is ZERO evidence to support the hair-brained idea that the evil one is pulling the puppet strings behind the scenes and corrupting out HOF coach. Mistakes have been made, but they were Gibbs' mistakes (except the ones he inherited like Coles, Gardner, etc). By the same flip of the coin, the successes belong to Gibbs as well.

I probably would run the franchise in a vastly different way than Gibbs (I would definitely put a higher value on draft picks), but that doesn't make his way right or wrong. There are countless ways to drive from DC to California and along the way there are going to be traffic jams, detours, accidents, and other problems.... But the only mistake would be to give up and start driving home.

[smoak]

What about benching and cutting players?

IMO -

Cutting a guy is a silly knee jerk reaction that show the rest of the players that you don't care about them as people. It should only be used as a last resort as with Antonio Brown, Coles, Garnder, Trotter, etc.

Benching is another story, but the coaches have not demonstrated a lack of willingness to bench players (Brunell, AA, etc). The problem is the fans want things done on their timetable not the one the coaches have in mind. I think a lot of Skins fans should go into coaching as they would much happier calling the shots (nothing wrong with that).

[RedskinsDave]

We can agree to disagree b/c frankly I don't care if anyone agrees with me.

It's called dialogue or debate. That's why this place exists. In that same vein you can't toss something out there as a fact and not back it up.

I am not trying to win you or anyone over, but there is plenty of evidence that Gibbs 1.0 operated in a similar manner to Gibbs 2.0 in terms of how players are used and valued. There is ZERO evidence to support the hair-brained idea that the evil one is pulling the puppet strings behind the scenes and corrupting out HOF coach. Mistakes have been made, but they were Gibbs' mistakes (except the ones he inherited like Coles, Gardner, etc). By the same flip of the coin, the successes belong to Gibbs as well.

One, no one said there was any puppeteering going on. What was said by me and others is that Snyder convinced Gibbs that his way can work against the cap and can build a winner. Two, there is more than ample evidence that proves that. See my last post for the two biggest examples. If you believe Gibbs 2.0 resembles Gibbs 1.0 please provide some proof. I see very little resemblance.

[smoak]

It's called dialogue or debate. That's why this place exists. In that same vein you can't toss something out there as a fact and not back it up.


I am fairly aware of what it is called, but not every point needs to be debated. I'm not trying to win or prove anything, and last time I checked it was acceptable to post your POV even if you don't feel like debating it. I'd rather spend my time discussing my excitement over the fact that Campbell is set to make his first NFL start! That and other more positive topics are more the focus of my energy and time.

[RedskinsDave]

I am fairly aware of what it is called, but not every point needs to be debated. I'm not trying to win or prove anything, and last time I checked it was acceptable to post your POV even if you don't feel like debating it. I'd rather spend my time discussing my excitement over the fact that Campbell is set to make his first NFL start! That and other more positive topics are more the focus of my energy and time.

That's called "hit and run" posting.

[redskin_rich]

It's called dialogue or debate. That's why this place exists. In that same vein you can't toss something out there as a fact and not back it up.



One, no one said there was any puppeteering going on. What was said by me and others is that Snyder convinced Gibbs that his way can work against the cap and can build a winner. Two, there is more than ample evidence that proves that. See my last post for the two biggest examples. If you believe Gibbs 2.0 resembles Gibbs 1.0 please provide some proof. I see very little resemblance.
Well, there was no free agency during Gibbs first tenure here but I can name a whole lot of key players that were vital to the Championships and were acquired by means other than the draft.

[BurgundyNGold]

That's called "hit and run" posting.
I don't think Smoak does that. Some folks do, but not him. He'll debate with you even when he's dead wrong (like the second hand smoke thing, lol). :D

[Skins7ny]

all the more reasonto play JC.. maybe he is the next brady ? you never know with him onthe bench

If Joe Gibbs had taken over the Patriots when Bellichick did, Gibbs would be announcing that he was replacing Drew Bledsoe in the lineup with Tom Brady today. :rolleyes:

On the Snyder thing, I really, really dislike him, and have ever since he started meddling in personnel matters (i.e., from day one!). However, I don't think it is fair to pin this all on him. And it is really unfair to say that he is just interested in milking the fan base. I think he is a fan (perhaps too much of a fan, IMO) and he really wants to win. The way he goes about it is wrong. If he still is acting as part of the decision-making process at Redskins Park, then he shares the blame. If he isn't, then he doesn't. If he hired Joe Gibbs and gave him absolute control, and does not interfere, then I cannot blame him for the recent events, EXCEPT to the extent that we are still feeling the effects of his prior decisions pre-Gibbs. Primary sin among these was firing Marty because he would rather risk not making the playoffs than doing it without control of the franchise. That was extremely selfish and not in the best interest of the franchise and the fans. I am not a big Marty fan, but there is no denying he had cleaned up a lot of Danny's mess and had the team poised to make the playoffs the following year. Danny pulled the plug on that solely because Marty would not let him play.

[akhhorus]

If Joe Gibbs had taken over the Patriots when Bellichick did, Gibbs would be announcing that he was replacing Drew Bledsoe in the lineup with Tom Brady today. :rolleyes:

Belichek didn't bench Bledsoe for Brady, Bledsoe was hurt. So, maybe you should do some research before you whine.....again

On the Snyder thing, I really, really dislike him, and have ever since he started meddling in personnel matters (i.e., from day one!). However, I don't think it is fair to pin this all on him. And it is really unfair to say that he is just interested in milking the fan base. I think he is a fan (perhaps too much of a fan, IMO) and he really wants to win. The way he goes about it is wrong. If he still is acting as part of the decision-making process at Redskins Park, then he shares the blame. If he isn't, then he doesn't. If he hired Joe Gibbs and gave him absolute control, and does not interfere, then I cannot blame him for the recent events, EXCEPT to the extent that we are still feeling the effects of his prior decisions pre-Gibbs. Primary sin among these was firing Marty because he would rather risk not making the playoffs than doing it without control of the franchise. That was extremely selfish and not in the best interest of the franchise and the fans. I am not a big Marty fan, but there is no denying he had cleaned up a lot of Danny's mess and had the team poised to make the playoffs the following year. Danny pulled the plug on that solely because Marty would not let him play.

And Marty didn't give himself any leeway as a GM by losing his first 8 games and making some of the worse picks in Redskins history. I really don't get this love for Marty. He was awful, Snyder wanted to keep him as a coach and hire a GM like Accorsi, Marty refused so Dan fired him. Based on Marty's draft record, we made the right move there.

[RedskinsDave]

And Marty didn't give himself any leeway as a GM by losing his first 8 games and making some of the worse picks in Redskins history. I really don't get this love for Marty. He was awful, Snyder wanted to keep him as a coach and hire a GM like Accorsi, Marty refused so Dan fired him. Based on Marty's draft record, we made the right move there.

Too many folks listen to ESPN and other outlets who acted like letting Marty go was some major sin.

[akhhorus]

Too many folks listen to ESPN and other outlets who acted like letting Marty go was some major sin.


Well, this should cure people of that misconception:
2001 draft
15 Washington Rod Gardner WR Clemson
16 N.Y. Jets Santana Moss WR Miami
17 Seattle Steve Hutchinson G Michigan
18 Detroit Jeff Backus T Michigan
19 Pittsburgh Casey Hampton NT Texas
20 St. Louis Adam Archuleta SS Arizona State
21 Buffalo Nate Clements CB Ohio State

[HAWGZHEAD]

Well, this should cure people of that misconception:
2001 draft
15 Washington Rod Gardner WR Clemson
16 N.Y. Jets Santana Moss WR Miami
17 Seattle Steve Hutchinson G Michigan
18 Detroit Jeff Backus T Michigan
19 Pittsburgh Casey Hampton NT Texas
20 St. Louis Adam Archuleta SS Arizona State
21 Buffalo Nate Clements CB Ohio StateAwww man, what I would give to see Portis running through holes made by hutchinson.:banghead:

[RedskinsDave]

Well, this should cure people of that misconception:
2001 draft
15 Washington Rod Gardner WR Clemson
16 N.Y. Jets Santana Moss WR Miami
17 Seattle Steve Hutchinson G Michigan
18 Detroit Jeff Backus T Michigan
19 Pittsburgh Casey Hampton NT Texas
20 St. Louis Adam Archuleta SS Arizona State
21 Buffalo Nate Clements CB Ohio State

Man, I wish we had that Archuleta guy. :D

Had we drafted Hutch that year I could say with all certainty that things would be different.

[akhhorus]

Awww man, what I would give to see Portis running through holes made by hutchinson.:banghead:

To make you even more sick, here's the list of players taken between Pole Gardner and Captain Smoot:

16 N.Y. Jets Santana Moss WR Miami
17 Seattle Steve Hutchinson G Michigan
18 Detroit Jeff Backus T Michigan
19 Pittsburgh Casey Hampton NT Texas
20 St. Louis Adam Archuleta SS Arizona State
21 Buffalo Nate Clements CB Ohio State
22 N.Y. Giants Will Allen CB Syracuse
23 New Orleans Deuce McAllister RB Mississippi
24 Denver Willie Middlebrooks CB Minnesota
25 Philadelphia Freddie Mitchell WR UCLA
26 Miami Jamar Fletcher CB Wisconsin
27 Minnesota Michael Bennett RB Wisconsin
28 Oakland Derrick Gibson SS Florida State
29 St. Louis Ryan Pickett NT Ohio State
30 Indianapolis Reggie Wayne WR Miami
31 Baltimore Todd Heap TE Arizona State
32 San Diego Drew Brees QB Purdue
33 Cleveland Quincy Morgan WR Kansas State
34 Arizona Kyle Vanden Bosch DE Nebraska
35 Atlanta Alge Crumpler TE North Carolina
36 Cincinnati Chad Johnson WR Oregon State
37 Indianapolis Idrees Bashir FS Memphis
38 Chicago Anthony Thomas RB Michigan
39 Pittsburgh Kendrell Bell OLB Georgia
40 Seattle Ken Lucas CB Mississippi
41 Green Bay Robert Ferguson WR Texas A&M
42 St. Louis Tommy Polley OLB Florida State
43 Jacksonville Maurice Williams T Michigan
44 Carolina Kris Jenkins DT Maryland

And between Captain Smoot and Sage included:
Matt Light, Chris Chambers, Shaun Rogers, Derrick Burgess, Adrian Wilson, Steve Smith, Kareem McKenzie, Rabach, Matt Stewart and Rudi Johnson. Ugh. I'm going to go lie down for awhile...lol

[HAWGZHEAD]

To make you even more sick, here's the list of players taken between Pole Gardner and Captain Smoot:

Ugh. I'm going to go lie down for awhile...lolWow, I had no idea. Not being a college football fan I rarely have any idea of draft talent. That is pretty sickening though.

BTW, why no bolded letters for FredEX? hater :D

[Green-Is-Good]

To make you even more sick, here's the list of players taken between Pole Gardner and Captain Smoot:

16 N.Y. Jets Santana Moss WR Miami
17 Seattle Steve Hutchinson G Michigan
18 Detroit Jeff Backus T Michigan
19 Pittsburgh Casey Hampton NT Texas
20 St. Louis Adam Archuleta SS Arizona State
21 Buffalo Nate Clements CB Ohio State
22 N.Y. Giants Will Allen CB Syracuse
23 New Orleans Deuce McAllister RB Mississippi
24 Denver Willie Middlebrooks CB Minnesota
25 Philadelphia Freddie Mitchell WR UCLA
26 Miami Jamar Fletcher CB Wisconsin
27 Minnesota Michael Bennett RB Wisconsin
28 Oakland Derrick Gibson SS Florida State
29 St. Louis Ryan Pickett NT Ohio State
30 Indianapolis Reggie Wayne WR Miami
31 Baltimore Todd Heap TE Arizona State
32 San Diego Drew Brees QB Purdue
33 Cleveland Quincy Morgan WR Kansas State
34 Arizona Kyle Vanden Bosch DE Nebraska
35 Atlanta Alge Crumpler TE North Carolina
36 Cincinnati Chad Johnson WR Oregon State
37 Indianapolis Idrees Bashir FS Memphis
38 Chicago Anthony Thomas RB Michigan
39 Pittsburgh Kendrell Bell OLB Georgia
40 Seattle Ken Lucas CB Mississippi
41 Green Bay Robert Ferguson WR Texas A&M
42 St. Louis Tommy Polley OLB Florida State
43 Jacksonville Maurice Williams T Michigan
44 Carolina Kris Jenkins DT Maryland

And between Captain Smoot and Sage included:
Matt Light, Chris Chambers, Shaun Rogers, Derrick Burgess, Adrian Wilson, Steve Smith, Kareem McKenzie, Rabach, Matt Stewart and Rudi Johnson. Ugh. I'm going to go lie down for awhile...lol

Well that's the case for every team and sport.
Gilbert Arenas was drafted in the second round of the same draft in which KWAME BROWN was selected first.

[akhhorus]

Well that's the case for every team and sport.
Gilbert Arenas was drafted in the second round of the same draft in which KWAME BROWN was selected first.

True, but that's a ton of talent between the Skins' picks that year. 38 picks, and I count 13 pro bowlers. Thats way off the charts for the draft success percentage.

[BandWagon]

Sadly, until we win (or change), your assessment can hardly be debated. As consumers we're buying the on-the-field and off-the-field product hook, line and sinker. It's sad that we love our team so much that we can't really make a statement with our wallets. I can't go without my season tickets, jerseys and other memorabilia. I'm too big a fan. Unfortunately, that only reinforces the strategy and the reality that the economic side of the Snyder plan is working...perfectly...

[Skins7ny]

[QUOTE]Belichek didn't bench Bledsoe for Brady, Bledsoe was hurt.

That was a joke, not a whine. I imagine you have a hard time telling the difference, since judging from your posts, you probably don't interact with people apart from your computer keyboard. I didn't say that Belichek benched Bledsoe, but regardless, if he lost his job to an injury, that is akin to a benching.


And Marty didn't give himself any leeway as a GM by losing his first 8 games and making some of the worse picks in Redskins history. I really don't get this love for Marty. He was awful, Snyder wanted to keep him as a coach and hire a GM like Accorsi, Marty refused so Dan fired him. Based on Marty's draft record, we made the right move there

So, maybe you should do some research before you whine.....again

Marty didn't start 0-8. He started 0-5. Maybe YOU should do some research before you post your typical condescending posts defending the Skins' management. You have been defending them all off-season and all year. Have I been right or have you? Check the record, snarkboy!

Too many folks listen to ESPN and other outlets who acted like letting Marty go was some major sin.

For the record, I don't listen to ESPN. I made my mind up about Marty ages ago, like many other veteran NFL watchers. He is an excellent, disciplined coach who will get you to the playoffs but will never win the big one because he is too conservative offensively. However, you don't have to have watched ESPN to remember that when Marty came aboard in 2001, the Skins were the laughing stock of the league, and rightly so. We had been through the Jeff George/Norv/Robiskie disaster the year before, and the team was corrupted by the inmates running the asylum. Players like LaVar and Bruce Smith were going over the coaches' heads by playing chess and going to Wizards games with the Danny, and the entire organization was infantile. Marty cleaned things up, fired those people he identified as albatrosses and hangers-on (I'm talking to you, Vinny!), made people accountable and made the team professional again. Not surprisingly, it took 1/2 a season for the team to get the message and for the team to buy into Marty's philosophy. Considering the damage Danny had done, 1/2 a season was a small price to pay. Marty went 8-8 that year with Tony Banks as his starting QB. Stephen Davis had his most productive year as a pro. He went on record at the time as saying he had his eye on Jake Delhomme, who was a free agent in little-to-moderate demand that offseason. I have no doubt that Marty would have gotten us to the playoffs the next year, and would have had us be a perrenial playoff-caliber team that never would get to the Super Bowl. That is his history. Not what you want, but better than what we have had. But at least we could take pride in the way the team played, and the way the organization was run: professionally. In contrast to the coach Snyder dumped him for, Spurrier. His draft wasn't the best, but he got a WR who had 1,000 yards the next year, a CB who we wish we had back this year in Smoot, and a QB who is still in the league (and threw 3 TDs two weeks ago) with the usual bare Redskins draft cupboard (4 picks). His draft was at least comparable with all our drafts since then. (BTW, at the draft that year, I was ticked that the Skins didn't draft Hutchinson. I was happy with the Smoot pick).

All the snarky comments in the world from Snyder apologists on this site won't change those facts.

[X-Factor13]

Snyder will right the ship. But he is a slow learner.

He's a business man, and business men need to fix things fast. How do you plug a gap quickly? free agency. I think that he'll tone it down now that he's taken a few pointers from gibbs. I agree that cerreto should be fired. And i think he will be soon. Gibbs II has been almost utter disappointment with the one season between the two miserable ones. Now we're stuck with a coaching staff that is cocky, old, stubborn, and 2 steps behind everyone else.


Considering how i can't base any of this on anything, i'm not really going to debate with anyone else's posts though.

[RedskinsDave]

All the snarky comments in the world from Snyder apologists on this site won't change those facts.

Snyder apologists.....that's rich. You may want to read some more.

[redskin_rich]

That was a joke, not a whine. I imagine you have a hard time telling the difference, since judging from your posts, you probably don't interact with people apart from your computer keyboard. I didn't say that Belichek benched Bledsoe, but regardless, if he lost his job to an injury, that is akin to a benching.
Marty didn't start 0-8. He started 0-5. Maybe YOU should do some research before you post your typical condescending posts defending the Skins' management. You have been defending them all off-season and all year. Have I been right or have you? Check the record, snarkboy!

Watch the personal attacks, they are not tolerated here. Attack the post not the poster. And half a season of disappointment with a ton of injuries does not make you right or wrong. It is what it is.

For the record, I don't listen to ESPN. I made my mind up about Marty ages ago, like many other veteran NFL watchers. He is an excellent, disciplined coach who will get you to the playoffs but will never win the big one because he is too conservative offensively. However, you don't have to have watched ESPN to remember that when Marty came aboard in 2001, the Skins were the laughing stock of the league, and rightly so. We had been through the Jeff George/Norv/Robiskie disaster the year before, and the team was corrupted by the inmates running the asylum. Players like LaVar and Bruce Smith were going over the coaches' heads by playing chess and going to Wizards games with the Danny, and the entire organization was infantile. Marty cleaned things up, fired those people he identified as albatrosses and hangers-on (I'm talking to you, Vinny!), made people accountable and made the team professional again. Not surprisingly, it took 1/2 a season for the team to get the message and for the team to buy into Marty's philosophy. Considering the damage Danny had done, 1/2 a season was a small price to pay. Marty went 8-8 that year with Tony Banks as his starting QB. Stephen Davis had his most productive year as a pro. He went on record at the time as saying he had his eye on Jake Delhomme, who was a free agent in little-to-moderate demand that offseason. I have no doubt that Marty would have gotten us to the playoffs the next year, and would have had us be a perrenial playoff-caliber team that never would get to the Super Bowl. That is his history. Not what you want, but better than what we have had. But at least we could take pride in the way the team played, and the way the organization was run: professionally. In contrast to the coach Snyder dumped him for, Spurrier. His draft wasn't the best, but he got a WR who had 1,000 yards the next year, a CB who we wish we had back this year in Smoot, and a QB who is still in the league (and threw 3 TDs two weeks ago) with the usual bare Redskins draft cupboard (4 picks). His draft was at least comparable with all our drafts since then. (BTW, at the draft that year, I was ticked that the Skins didn't draft Hutchinson. I was happy with the Smoot pick).

All the snarky comments in the world from Snyder apologists on this site won't change those facts.
I guess you forgot that Marty also let Russ Grimm go and last I checked, he is one of the best assistant coaches in the league. I also guess you enjoyed Marty Ball. I didn't, I thought it stunk. I remember being happy to have our opponents score first so Marty couldn't try to nurse a 3 pt lead all game. It was especially funny that Marty tried to reteach Darrell Green how to cover a receiver. Also, that year was not Stephen Davis' most productive as a pro, not by a longshot. Snyder's biggest mistake with Marty was giving him all the control he did.

[X-Factor13]

That was a joke, not a whine. I imagine you have a hard time telling the difference, since judging from your posts, you probably don't interact with people apart from your computer keyboard.



Look man, nobody mind's a debate here. We might as well call HR the armchair quarterback capitol of the web. But let's leave personal attacks out of this. From what I've seen, Akh is a good guy. He is also an admin/moderator. That requires him to be on this site a lot trying to eliminate things like the instance above. But i'm rambling, let's get back to the topic.

[akhhorus]

That was a joke, not a whine. I imagine you have a hard time telling the difference, since judging from your posts, you probably don't interact with people apart from your computer keyboard.

*yawn* you know that the person has nothing when they start attacking my post count. And it is hard to tell the difference with you because all you do is whine and complain about EVERYTHING the skins do. Are you even a skins fan? With very few exceptions every post you make here is about how the Skins messed up this move or that move. You do nothing but complain constantly and this act is getting old. If you're that unhappy with the skins, I encourage you to find another team to root for(Although, you'd probably just bitch about that team's moves). You're not a happy person and I can recommend a therapist for you if you would like.

I didn't say that Belichek benched Bledsoe, but regardless, if he lost his job to an injury, that is akin to a benching.

You said:
"If Joe Gibbs had taken over the Patriots when Bellichick did, Gibbs would be announcing that he was replacing Drew Bledsoe in the lineup with Tom Brady today."

Don't try to wriggle out of your statement. You implied that Gibbs would have not benched Bledsoe until now. If Bledsoe was injured, how exactly did Belichek make make a decision to bench him? The situations are incongruent. But again, you just want to whine about everything apparently. God Forbid the skins win the super bowl, we might have to put you on Suicide watch.

Marty didn't start 0-8. He started 0-5. Maybe YOU should do some research before you post your typical condescending posts defending the Skins' management. You have been defending them all off-season and all year. Have I been right or have you? Check the record, snarkboy

There's a difference between a minor numerical error and your total factual error. And are you happy the skins are losing? Sure sounds like it, because you have more to whine about. You're not different that the legion of fools who show up here during game days just to whine about the skins, then disappear after wins.

For the record, I don't listen to ESPN. I made my mind up about Marty ages ago, like many other veteran NFL watchers. He is an excellent, disciplined coach who will get you to the playoffs but will never win the big one because he is too conservative offensively. However, you don't have to have watched ESPN to remember that when Marty came aboard in 2001, the Skins were the laughing stock of the league, and rightly so. We had been through the Jeff George/Norv/Robiskie disaster the year before, and the team was corrupted by the inmates running the asylum. Players like LaVar and Bruce Smith were going over the coaches' heads by playing chess and going to Wizards games with the Danny, and the entire organization was infantile. Marty cleaned things up, fired those people he identified as albatrosses and hangers-on (I'm talking to you, Vinny!), made people accountable and made the team professional again. Not surprisingly, it took 1/2 a season for the team to get the message and for the team to buy into Marty's philosophy. Considering the damage Danny had done, 1/2 a season was a small price to pay. Marty went 8-8 that year with Tony Banks as his starting QB. Stephen Davis had his most productive year as a pro. He went on record at the time as saying he had his eye on Jake Delhomme, who was a free agent in little-to-moderate demand that offseason. I have no doubt that Marty would have gotten us to the playoffs the next year, and would have had us be a perrenial playoff-caliber team that never would get to the Super Bowl. That is his history.

No, that's your wet dream. Not history. And thats known as a counter factual.

Not what you want, but better than what we have had. But at least we could take pride in the way the team played, and the way the organization was run: professionally. In contrast to the coach Snyder dumped him for, Spurrier. His draft wasn't the best, but he got a WR who had 1,000 yards the next year, a CB who we wish we had back this year in Smoot, and a QB who is still in the league (and threw 3 TDs two weeks ago) with the usual bare Redskins draft cupboard (4 picks). His draft was at least comparable with all our drafts since then. (BTW, at the draft that year, I was ticked that the Skins didn't draft Hutchinson. I was happy with the Smoot pick).

All the snarky comments in the world from Snyder apologists on this site won't change those facts.

What facts? LMAO. You're just speculating off supposition here. Please give links to back up all your claims before you can claim them as fact. I'm sorry Snyder fired your boytoy Marty, but he was a disaster as a GM. A total disaster. And just because we disagree with you doesn't make us apologists for Snyder. Really, do us all a favor and find another team to whine about. This song is getting old.

[akhhorus]

[QUOTE=akhhorus]

That was a joke, not a whine. I imagine you have a hard time telling the difference, since judging from your posts, you probably don't interact with people apart from your computer keyboard.



Look man, nobody mind's a debate here. We might as well call HR the armchair quarterback capitol of the web. But let's leave personal attacks out of this. From what I've seen, Akh is a good guy. He is also an admin/moderator. That requires him to be on this site a lot trying to eliminate things like the instance above. But i'm rambling, let's get back to the topic.

Actually no, I'm not. But my (or anyone's) post count doesn't matter frankly.

[X-Factor13]

Man, I wish we had that Archuleta guy. :D

Had we drafted Hutch that year I could say with all certainty that things would be different.



yep. he'd still be sitting on the bench because gibbs wants to go with the "super smart" veteran OG. :lol1:

[X-Factor13]

Actually no, I'm not. But my (or anyone's) post count doesn't matter frankly.


My bad man, i thought you used to be...? Whatever though, just thought i'd add my 2 cents.

[akhhorus]

My bad man, i thought you used to be...? Whatever though, just thought i'd add my 2 cents.

Nope, never have been. It doesn't matter if I was or not, when you're bringing up posts counts as a retort/attack, you have nothing.

[FanFromArizona]

True, but that's a ton of talent between the Skins' picks that year. 38 picks, and I count 13 pro bowlers. Thats way off the charts for the draft success percentage.

Hey, it's never too late to count out Gardner :rolleyes:
He does have a Pro-Bowl QB throwing to him this year. :lol1:

And on that note, why no love for Freddie Mac? He *could* make a comeback......

[Skins7ny]

Watch the personal attacks, they are not tolerated here. Attack the post not the poster. And half a season of disappointment with a ton of injuries does not make you right or wrong. It is what it is.


That is funny. At least 1/2 of what I read on this site is people complaining about various things, and yet whenever I post, Akhorus quickly responds by calling me a whiner. I consider THAT a personal attack. I am getting pretty tired of having him complain that I am whining when I am just offering my opinion or pointing out certain things. Many other people "whine" in their posts, yet he almost never denigrates the posters by calling them whiners. Just me. I think his tone with people is highly insulting and condescending, and I am not the only person on this site to notice that. If he is going to dish out personal insults, he ought to be prepared to take them. And, if you are going to insult someone for not doing research, you shouldn't post incorrect information yourself.

Check out his post to me. THAT is a personal attack, and it is not the first time he has suggested I am an unhappy person or some thing like that. He is constantly attacking me personally, and I don't see you ever asking him to cut it out. If he wants to keep attacking me, that is fine-I am a big boy, I can take it. But don't be a hypocrite.

I also disagree with you about the injury excuse. We have been one of the healthier teams in the league. Halfway through the season, we had no one listed as worse than "probable" on the Philly injury report, and we have only lost 2 players to season-long injury (DB Pierson Prioleau and PK John Hall).

I also guess you enjoyed Marty Ball. I didn't, I thought it stunk. I remember being happy to have our opponents score first so Marty couldn't try to nurse a 3 pt lead all game. It was especially funny that Marty tried to reteach Darrell Green how to cover a receiver. Also, that year was not Stephen Davis' most productive as a pro, not by a longshot. Snyder's biggest mistake with Marty was giving him all the control he did.

Read my post. I don't like Marty, and never wanted him hired here for the reasons I stated in my post. However, he was a huge improvement from what he replaced (Norv/Terry in 2000) and what followed him (Spurrier in 2002-03). Are you arguing with me on that point? He brought a level of professionalism that was sorely needed at the time, and had the arrow pointing up on the franchise. If memory serves (I could be wrong), he had John Schnieder with him as his top personnel guy, an up-and-comer. Schnieder is doing a great job in Seattle now, and probably would have grown into the role here. I agree with you that Marty was/is way too conservative, pathologically so in my opinion. I thought the Chargers made a mistake in hiring him, for those reasons. He goes into a shell offensively when the chips are down, and plays it way too safe. He has been that way his entire career. I said that in my post. READ MY POST BEFORE YOU CRITICIZE IT!

[akhhorus]

That is funny. At least 1/2 of what I read on this site is people complaining about various things, and yet whenever I post, Akhorus quickly responds by calling me a whiner. I consider THAT a personal attack. I am getting pretty tired of having him complain that I am whining when I am just offering my opinion or pointing out certain things. Many other people "whine" in their posts, yet he almost never denigrates the posters by calling them whiners. Just me. I think his tone with people is highly insulting and condescending, and I am not the only person on this site to notice that. If he is going to dish out personal insults, he ought to be prepared to take them. And, if you are going to insult someone for not doing research, you shouldn't post incorrect information yourself.

Actually, I've called others whiners. And you do nothing but whine, not just "pointing out certain things". Technically, you offer your opinion, but your opinion to exclusively say "why the skins made a mistake by doing ______". A lot people here do offer opinions, but they point out the good too. I have yet to see you ever do that.

Check out his post to me. THAT is a personal attack, and it is not the first time he has suggested I am an unhappy person or some thing like that. He is constantly attacking me personally, and I don't see you ever asking him to cut it out. If he wants to keep attacking me, that is fine-I am a big boy, I can take it. But don't be a hypocrite.

I haven't personally attacked you in this thread yet, nor will I. You aren't a happy person, all you do is whine and complain about the skins.

[Skins7ny]

*yawn* you know that the person has nothing when they start attacking my post count.

Actually, you know a person has nothing when you attack them personally. See below.

You're not a happy person and I can recommend a therapist for you if you would like.
I wasn't attacking your post count. I was attacking the content of your posts. Whenever you get a post you disagree with, usually one that is critical of management, you adopt a very condescending and insulting tone. Since you feel you are entitled to suggest therapy for me, let me do the same for you. You might want to ask the therapist to help you with your inability to play well with others and tolerate dissenting opinions. You act like the high school bully who has never outgrown his anger and lashes out at others who annoy him. I don't care how many times you post: it is how you react in the posts that I think is lousy.

And tell me, others have "whined" about the Skins in this forum, why is it only me whom you constantly accuse of "whining"??

[I'm sorry Snyder fired your boytoy Marty/QUOTE]

Calling Marty my "boytoy" also shows that you are talking out of a certain orifice, and its not your mouth. Read my post. I don't like Marty, never said that I did. But I would trust my favorite team to a professional football guy like Marty before I would trust it to a marketing expert like Dan Snyder! If you feel otherwise, you must be on Dan's payroll.

[QUOTE]If you're that unhappy with the skins, I encourage you to find another team to root for

Yes, I am going to break my 36-year alleigence to the Skins because some idiot I don't know says I whine too much. Just because I am not making excuses for everything the FO does, does not mean I don't love my team. I certainly don't need to defend my feelings for the team to you or anyone else. Whoever the hell you are, you really have an inflated opinion of yourself!

[redskin_rich]

That is funny. At least 1/2 of what I read on this site is people complaining about various things, and yet whenever I post, Akhorus quickly responds by calling me a whiner. I consider THAT a personal attack. I am getting pretty tired of having him complain that I am whining when I am just offering my opinion or pointing out certain things. Many other people "whine" in their posts, yet he almost never denigrates the posters by calling them whiners. Just me. I think his tone with people is highly insulting and condescending, and I am not the only person on this site to notice that. If he is going to dish out personal insults, he ought to be prepared to take them. And, if you are going to insult someone for not doing research, you shouldn't post incorrect information yourself.

Check out his post to me. THAT is a personal attack, and it is not the first time he has suggested I am an unhappy person or some thing like that. He is constantly attacking me personally, and I don't see you ever asking him to cut it out. If he wants to keep attacking me, that is fine-I am a big boy, I can take it. But don't be a hypocrite.

I also disagree with you about the injury excuse. We have been one of the healthier teams in the league. Halfway through the season, we had no one listed as worse than "probable" on the Philly injury report, and we have only lost 2 players to season-long injury (DB Pierson Prioleau and PK John Hall).



Read my post. I don't like Marty, and never wanted him hired here for the reasons I stated in my post. However, he was a huge improvement from what he replaced (Norv/Terry in 2000) and what followed him (Spurrier in 2002-03). Are you arguing with me on that point? He brought a level of professionalism that was sorely needed at the time, and had the arrow pointing up on the franchise. If memory serves (I could be wrong), he had John Schnieder with him as his top personnel guy, an up-and-comer. Schnieder is doing a great job in Seattle now, and probably would have grown into the role here. I agree with you that Marty was/is way too conservative, pathologically so in my opinion. I thought the Chargers made a mistake in hiring him, for those reasons. He goes into a shell offensively when the chips are down, and plays it way too safe. He has been that way his entire career. I said that in my post. READ MY POST BEFORE YOU CRITICIZE IT!
I have read plenty of your posts and they are mostly of a whining/complaining nature. That is fine if that is your prerogative but don't take offense to be called out on it. You aren't the first and won't be the last, so save the martyr speech. You made a comment on another member's social interaction and that has nothing to do with what they posted. Insinuating that I am being a hypocrite is not exactly going to help your case.

You made a bunch of comments about Marty, one of which was completely false and I made my comments, none of which you replied to in this post. So maybe you should heed your own advice and READ THE POST BEFORE CRITICIZING IT!

That is all, if you have any further comments about other members or yourself feeling attacked, PM the member, me or another Mod or Administrator.

That goes for everybody, anymore pissing match comments in this thread will be deleted and warnings will be sent.

[Skins7ny]

You made a bunch of comments about Marty, one of which was completely false and I made my comments, none of which you replied to in this post. So maybe you should heed your own advice and READ THE POST BEFORE CRITICIZING IT!
I think I addressed your comments generally about Marty in some detail. Which comment did I make about Marty that was completely false? Please let me know what it is and I will address it. If it is the Stephen Davis comment, please note that he rushed for 1,432 yards that year, his highest total as a Redskin (I don't know if he exceeded that as a Panther).

Unfortunately, there has been a lot to complain about with the way this team has been run the past several years. When they start winning, then I will be happy! I am still waiting to hear you admonish Akh for the very personal things he wrote about me in the way you admonished me. I have seen him do that to other posters, and I have not once seen him be called on it.

[CowboyKilla]

To put it all on Snyder is ridiculous. Yes he's made plenty of mistakes.
Over the past 3years gibbs has been in charge. If JG said hire a GM we'd hire a GM. Snyder has been go with the flow. Snyder has been fine.
Ownership ain't like a coach you don't just find a new one. He hasn't been perfect, but frankly You Just Want Someone to Blame, we all do. It doesn't make me a snyderite just cause I don't agree that he's to blame for all our current ills.

[skinem]

Lets be real, Dan Snyder does not put on the pads each week players do, so if your crazy enough to pay 6 bucks for water "who is the smart one??" Snyder did not go out and get Brunell, did not make the often burned (before he got to DC) AA one of the highest paid safeties in the nfl, did not lie about the Lavar Situation when the whole world except those with blinders on knew it was personal with Coaches Lindsey-Williams who also let Clark go when he supported Arrington, did not sign Carter With Abraham on the market he could have received the AA money, Did not move a college safety to middle linebacker when he showed he could be stellar at outside linebacker, did not give up a 3rd round pick for a practically never used rb, he does not call the same plays over and over and over and well you get the picture on that, he does not claim its not the players it's my system that works, he does not play veterans just because they are veterans regardless of poor production, he does not ignore the fact that mike sellars has proven he can run the ball for the tough yards and catch it as well for the short tough yards, Snyder has been too free with the purse strings to the wrong free agents and for that he should take his blame but I suspect he is recieving advise from coaches on the free agents (just my guess), I'll say this, winning games starts with the offensive and defensive lines and neither has played very well, So I'm pulling for JC big time this week, but I'm pulling for the o-line and d-line even more, because I believe the coaches have been a big let down this year!! Huge letdown, the defense lacks the swarm mentality that made them lethal, and the offense can only change formation before the snap, I counted 8-9 Eagles in the box with no adjustment, Poor coaching not poor ownership, Danny just dishes the money. I wonder who made the choice for JC this week Gibbs or Danny?????

[Skins7ny]

It doesn't make me a snyderite just cause I don't agree that he's to blame for all our current ills.
I don't blame Snyder for all of our current ills. He puts money back into the team, and he hired Gibbs as the CEO. Unless he is telling Gibbs what to do, I don't hold him responsible. I said that in a previous post on this thread (see below):
On the Snyder thing, I really, really dislike him, and have ever since he started meddling in personnel matters (i.e., from day one!). However, I don't think it is fair to pin this all on him. And it is really unfair to say that he is just interested in milking the fan base. I think he is a fan (perhaps too much of a fan, IMO) and he really wants to win. The way he goes about it is wrong. If he still is acting as part of the decision-making process at Redskins Park, then he shares the blame. If he isn't, then he doesn't. If he hired Joe Gibbs and gave him absolute control, and does not interfere, then I cannot blame him for the recent events, EXCEPT to the extent that we are still feeling the effects of his prior decisions pre-Gibbs. Primary sin among these was firing Marty because he would rather risk not making the playoffs than doing it without control of the franchise. That was extremely selfish and not in the best interest of the franchise and the fans. I am not a big Marty fan, but there is no denying he had cleaned up a lot of Danny's mess and had the team poised to make the playoffs the following year. Danny pulled the plug on that solely because Marty would not let him play.

I am not calling you or everyone else who feels this way a "Snyder apologist". There are some members, though, who reflexively defend what he does or constantly give him the benefit of the doubt where he does not deserve it. Those people know who they are, and so does anyone else who regularly reads this site.

[redskin_rich]

I think I addressed your comments generally about Marty in some detail. Which comment did I make about Marty that was completely false? Please let me know what it is and I will address it. If it is the Stephen Davis comment, please note that he rushed for 1,432 yards that year, his highest total as a Redskin (I don't know if he exceeded that as a Panther).

Unfortunately, there has been a lot to complain about with the way this team has been run the past several years. When they start winning, then I will be happy! I am still waiting to hear you admonish Akh for the very personal things he wrote about me in the way you admonished me. I have seen him do that to other posters, and I have not once seen him be called on it.
Davis did have his highest rushing yards, as a Redskin, and his highest amount of carries that year. He also had his lowest amount of TD's as a starter. Here are his career stats:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/DaviSt00.htm

I don't have to acknowledge how anyone else is dealt with, because I was talking to you. You started with the namecalling and proceeded to backhandedly insult other members that may not agree with you and then me, after I told you to watch the personal attacks. No more please, from you, Akh or anyone else. This is the last post on this subject in this thread. Anyone else that continues this pissing match will have their post deleted and be sent a warning. And once again, if you do wish to discuss it further, do so via private messages.

[bigcmr]

Its sad that on Monday night football our opening game of a year. Snyder is hanging out with Tom Cruise. In his owners box. Im sorry guys Snyder is going to have to redem him self some how after that one. As a die hard Redskins fan I was embarresed to see Tom Cruse hanging out with our teams owner during a Big game.

[smoak]

That's called "hit and run" posting.

I prefer to call "prioritization". I had a train to catch and I wanted to read on Campbell more than I wanted to discuss the lil General.

But spin away all you like.

I don't think Smoak does that. Some folks do, but not him. He'll debate with you even when he's dead wrong (like the second hand smoke thing, lol). :D

Exactly. But don't coming crying to me when you need a new lung. Go ask Pen and Teller for help... :D

[Patrick]

Its sad that on Monday night football our opening game of a year. Snyder is hanging out with Tom Cruise. In his owners box. Im sorry guys Snyder is going to have to redem him self some how after that one. As a die hard Redskins fan I was embarresed to see Tom Cruse hanging out with our teams owner during a Big game.

The Redskins are Snyder main business ventures BUT not his only. He's got his fingers into a few other things. Don't confuse one with the other. Who he choose to hang out with should be no reflection on his dealings with the Skins. That was just one of those things that the media caught and they ran with it.

[smoak]

Too many folks listen to ESPN and other outlets who acted like letting Marty go was some major sin.

No, Marty represented a know elementy of stability at a time when the franchise was in constant upheaval. Had we not fired Marty, we would not have further deteriorated into the circus that was Coach Spurrier. Marty can coach and only a fool would argue otherwise. Now if you want to claim he chokes in the playoffs, then fine.... But at the time we not a good team so I would take a playoff choke over always watching other teams get the chance.

I didn't agree with all of Marty's decisions and he can be an arse, but this team was soft and he brought a much needed toughness at the time. That is why I personally liked him. It wasn't that he was great, but rather just better than the alternatives in my mind.

[RedskinsDave]

No, Marty represented a know elementy of stability at a time when the franchise was in constant upheaval. Had we not fired Marty, we would not have further deteriorated into the circus that was Coach Spurrier. Marty can coach and only a fool would argue otherwise. Now if you want to claim he chokes in the playoffs, then fine.... But at the time we not a good team so I would take a playoff choke over always watching other teams get the chance.

I didn't agree with all of Marty's decisions and he can be an arse, but this team was soft and he brought a much needed toughness at the time. That is why I personally liked him. It wasn't that he was great, but rather just better than the alternatives in my mind.

Please go back and read all the posts on this subject and not just mine. I don't feel like going over why letting Marty go was not a bad thing again.

[smoak]

that's what i've been saying....great post...


gibbs basically prostituted himself and allowed danny and the boys to influence him...when HE KNEW that wasn't the way it got him to the SB!!!!!

JTF

Prostituted? Really? Wow, and I'm sure you're backing that strong argument up with all kinds of facts. :rolleyes:

Please go back and read all the posts on this subject and not just mine. I don't feel like going over why letting Marty go was not a bad thing again.

It is still just an opnion and the best fact that seems to support it is that we drafted Rod Gardner? Well A) Any person who isn't in a coma can look BACK at a draft and say "Man what if we took player x instead of y..." and B) Rod Gardner seemed to be a solid choice at the time and played well as a rookie. RG started to decline as he spent more time playing for the golfer. Nobody respected that clown and this place became a COMPLETE circus once Marvin Lewis left.

Now you can go back and re-read my post. I'm just responding to provide clarification for my support of Marty and the fact that it is not ESPN based. I hated a lot of things about his tenure, but at least I saw much needed discipline. That is why I didn't want the Redskins to change at the time and I certainly wasn't influenced by ESPN.

[RedHokieSkin]

I just gotta say that, yeah, we've spent some big money on free agents, but though we've traded away a lot of draft picks for them, we have somehow still been utilizing the draft.

Our current team is made up of a good portion of home-grown players. What are most teams' percentage of draftees that are starting? Anyone know? Perhaps we are slightly lower than the average but I doubt by much. I can count 9 starters against TB that we drafted.

Draft picks that I can think of right now that are on the team: Campbell, Cooley, Betts, Rogers, Taylor, Montgomery, Golston, Dockery, Samuels, Jansen, Molinaro, McIntosh, Doughty, & I'm sure there are others.

And frankly, I think we've done pretty well in the FA market too. Washington, Springs, Sellers, Portis, Moss, Randle El, Lloyd, Marshall, Griffin, Daniels, and the list goes on that have been very good players for this team.

Sure there have been a few big busts...Duckett, Archuleta, Holdman, Carter, Brunell (although Carter appears to be coming around & Brunell has been good at times), but these seem to be the only pickups that people want to focus on. I guess when your team isn't doing well, you must find a scapegoat somewhere.

I just don't think that the FA vs. Draft philosophy is what is causing this team to lose. Some other points regarding coaching and ownership seem to be very valid, I just don't think this is one of them.

[PennSkinsFan]

I just gotta say that, yeah, we've spent some big money on free agents, but though we've traded away a lot of draft picks for them, we have somehow still been utilizing the draft.

Our current team is made up of a good portion of home-grown players. What are most teams' percentage of draftees that are starting? Anyone know? Perhaps we are slightly lower than the average but I doubt by much. I can count 9 starters against TB that we drafted.

Draft picks that I can think of right now that are on the team: Campbell, Cooley, Betts, Rogers, Taylor, Montgomery, Golston, Dockery, Samuels, Jansen, Molinaro, McIntosh, Doughty, & I'm sure there are others.

And frankly, I think we've done pretty well in the FA market too. Washington, Springs, Sellers, Portis, Moss, Randle El, Lloyd, Marshall, Griffin, Daniels, and the list goes on that have been very good players for this team.

Sure there have been a few big busts...Duckett, Archuleta, Holdman, Carter, Brunell (although Carter appears to be coming around & Brunell has been good at times), but these seem to be the only pickups that people want to focus on. I guess when your team isn't doing well, you must find a scapegoat somewhere.

I just don't think that the FA vs. Draft philosophy is what is causing this team to lose. Some other points regarding coaching and ownership seem to be very valid, I just don't think this is one of them.

Good points but the essence of the argument remains. The problem is not what players were chosen and such it is the fact that each year there is somethign done to revamp and we are witnessing the impact of that philosophy. The team simply has not gelled together, they do not have chemistry or sense of team together because year in and year out, many changes are made andbonds aren't developed. That is the essence of the argument, not the actual players choses or not.

[RedskinsDave]

It is still just an opnion and the best fact that seems to support it is that we drafted Rod Gardner? Well A) Any person who isn't in a coma can look BACK at a draft and say "Man what if we took player x instead of y..." and B) Rod Gardner seemed to be a solid choice at the time and played well as a rookie. RG started to decline as he spent more time playing for the golfer. Nobody respected that clown and this place became a COMPLETE circus once Marvin Lewis left.

Now you can go back and re-read my post. I'm just responding to provide clarification for my support of Marty and the fact that it is not ESPN based. I hated a lot of things about his tenure, but at least I saw much needed discipline. That is why I didn't want the Redskins to change at the time and I certainly wasn't influenced by ESPN.

It's not just drafting Gardner. It's also the fact that he refused to let Snyder hire a comptetent GM (ironic huh?). You can support Marty but it is one of the very few moves Snyder has made that was the right call.

[akhhorus]

It's not just drafting Gardner. It's also the fact that he refused to let Snyder hire a comptetent GM (ironic huh?). You can support Marty but it is one of the very few moves Snyder has made that was the right call.

What cheesed me off on Marty was, as Riggins said as the season began, that he totally alienated the team. I think they when on that winning streak in spite of Marty, not because of him.

[joethefan]

Hey Joe, in a fair fight, I think you could take the Danny ;-)In a fair fight the first thing I'd go for was not his eye, but his wallet......

[smoak]

It's not just drafting Gardner. It's also the fact that he refused to let Snyder hire a comptetent GM (ironic huh?). You can support Marty but it is one of the very few moves Snyder has made that was the right call.

I completely agree. But then Snyder hired a lap dog so were we better off?? I am 100% on board with a proven competent GM scenario.

[RedskinsDave]

What cheesed me off on Marty was, as Riggins said as the season began, that he totally alienated the team. I think they when on that winning streak in spite of Marty, not because of him.

Yep, Oklahoma drill, ugh.

[smoak]

What cheesed me off on Marty was, as Riggins said as the season began, that he totally alienated the team. I think they when on that winning streak in spite of Marty, not because of him.

Yeah, I'm not saying he was perfect, but I really liked seeing him reel-in the chumps like Deion (who didn't even bother to show) and Bruce Smith who had grown accustomed to the country club lifestyle under ol' Norv.

I don't see how you can say we won 5 "in spite of him".... Just like we didn't lose 5 straight in spite of him. He tore us down to the core and had to rebuild everything.

But in the end, as with many seasons back then, he and the team choked to a pathetic dallass team was inexcusable and cost us the season (if I remember correctly).

I would not have liked Marty had he followed Gibbs or even any half way successful coach, but compared to Norv and what I expected from Spurrier, I was disappointed to see him leave.

[joethefan]

JTF

Prostituted? Really? Wow, and I'm sure you're backing that strong argument up with all kinds of facts. :rolleyes:


We smoak the facts are this....3 Superbowls, 1 General Manager. And no SB's with a coach that's a Coach and GM and when everything starts and ends with him....

Gibbs knew what got him there and how he got there...he knew the formula...Doesn't it seem funny that Gibbs went back to the old way of getting Free agents like he did in the past, but didn't look at the past to realize he needed a GM?...that's very interesting.

Gibbs ate the cheese that Danny fed to him and it's not working...and we all know it. Gibbs is doing the same thing that Danny has been doing since before he came. That's why I said he prosituted himself, he bought into that "Me being the head Honcho" and tell me has that concept worked thus far?...I don't think so.

[RedskinsDave]

We were done with the Cowboys with 5 games left to play in 2001. The best thing Marty did was hire his brother. That team scored more than 20 points only three times. Even the games we won that year were tough to stay awake through.

[akhhorus]

Yeah, I'm not saying he was perfect, but I really liked seeing him reel-in the chumps like Deion (who didn't even bother to show) and Bruce Smith who had grown accustomed to the country club lifestyle under ol' Norv.

I don't see how you can say we won 5 "in spite of him".... Just like we didn't lose 5 straight in spite of him. He tore us down to the core and had to rebuild everything.

But in the end, as with many seasons back then, he and the team choked to a pathetic dallass team was inexcusable and cost us the season (if I remember correctly).

I would not have liked Marty had he followed Gibbs or even any half way successful coach, but compared to Norv and what I expected from Spurrier, I was disappointed to see him leave.

I completely disagree. Considering the venom they had for Marty, I can't believe that they suddenly decided to start winning for him since he tore them down and built them back up. They decided to win for themselves (which is the point of a coach being a hardass), Snyder wanted to bring in a GM and keep marty(which ironically enough has worked in SD), but Marty refused. Spurrier was a mistake, but I would rather have dealt with that than let Marty really ruin this team with terrible draft after terrible draft.

[bergiemoore]

Good points but the essence of the argument remains. The problem is not what players were chosen and such it is the fact that each year there is somethign done to revamp and we are witnessing the impact of that philosophy. The team simply has not gelled together, they do not have chemistry or sense of team together because year in and year out, many changes are made andbonds aren't developed. That is the essence of the argument, not the actual players choses or not.

I'd be interested to know what the Skin's turn-over rate is compared to other teams (number of new players, or players lost, divided by the total number of players on the team). Is that stat floating around out there anywhere. It just seems to me that most teams deal with the same issues that we do, when it comes to turnover. Some are more successful than others. Last year we were more successful than this year. Our free agents that we acquired were at areas that I think all of us would agree needed upgrades, with the notorious exception of safety.

This year's surprizingly abysmal performance has just focused our attention on every detail of the teams operations looking for reasons why. I don't think that Dan Synder's philosophy (or is it Vinny's) of aggressively pursuing free agents is the sole reason this set of players is performing as they are. Yes, it would help to have more continuity in areas where the current players are performing well, but I don't hear anyone arguing that we should bring back Taylor Jacobs. Losing Clark, on the other hand, was just plain stupid, at the time, and in hindsight.

So, did losing Walt Harris and Ryan Clark on defense really cause the drop-off in production that we've seen so far this year? I'm not convinced.

[Skins7ny]

We smoak the facts are this....3 Superbowls, 1 General Manager. And no SB's with a coach that's a Coach and GM and when everything starts and ends with him....

Gibbs knew what got him there and how he got there...he knew the formula...Doesn't it seem funny that Gibbs went back to the old way of getting Free agents like he did in the past, but didn't look at the past to realize he needed a GM?...that's very interesting.

Gibbs ate the cheese that Danny fed to him and it's not working...and we all know it. Gibbs is doing the same thing that Danny has been doing since before he came. That's why I said he prosituted himself, he bought into that "Me being the head Honcho" and tell me has that concept worked thus far?...I don't think so.

I don't blame Gibbs for wanting total control. What head coach doesn't want it? Gibbs exerted his control after his second SB win, because he could. That is supposedly why Beathard left, he lost a power struggle with Gibbs. There is nothing nefarious about that (just as there is nothing nefarious in Brunell not asking to be benched). The difference is that very few head coaches can do both well. Walsh (as much as I hate to admit it) and Jimmy Johnson in his first go-round are two of the only ones to do it themselves in the modern era (Belicheck has Pioli, Sherman has Sunquisdt). Coaching and scouting players are two related but different sets of skills. The FO really has done a good job of picking veteran free agents until this past off-season, but their useo of the draft has been abysmal.

Gibbs was always happy to spend Jack Kent Cooke's money to pay for veteran talent. He was that way during his first tenure, and it worked out great. I doubt Danny had to convince Gibbs to be that way during this go-round. I think he, Danny and Vinny are all on the same page. The problem is that in today's NFL, this method does not work for the long-term, and probably not the short-term either. And, I don't think that the people Gibbs has (had?, the scouting dept changed a lot last year) in place have been serving him well, and I don't think he is a very savvy negotiator when trading around the league. I think he needs a GM, but it is hard to expect someone in a position of power to voluntarily cede that power. Of course, he did it with Al Saunders last off-season, so maybe he will do something similar this coming off-season.

[smoak]

I completely disagree. Considering the venom they had for Marty, I can't believe that they suddenly decided to start winning for him since he tore them down and built them back up. They decided to win for themselves (which is the point of a coach being a hardass), Snyder wanted to bring in a GM and keep marty(which ironically enough has worked in SD), but Marty refused. Spurrier was a mistake, but I would rather have dealt with that than let Marty really ruin this team with terrible draft after terrible draft.

I guess it is just a difference of opinion then. Yes, my first choice would have been a GM, but I'd still take Marty over Spurrier and a lap dog. I have nothing against Vinny perse other than appears to be nothing but a flunkie and companion for the general. Also, my opinion is heavily influenced by the fact that I NEVER wanted Norv and didn't really care for Spurrier.

We were done with the Cowboys with 5 games left to play in 2001. The best thing Marty did was hire his brother. That team scored more than 20 points only three times. Even the games we won that year were tough to stay awake through.

Amen! I love old school smash mouth football, and there are games I remember just laughing b/c it was so one sided. The victory over eventual SB Champion Ravens comes to mind.

Even though I forgot the timing of the first dallass loss, I think the second one was a key contributor of our missing the playoffs. I mean dallass won at most 5 games that year and they swept us. Man that ticked me off at the time. Oh well. I guess only time will tell what the next swing of the Snyder pendulum brings.

[skinfan43]

A quick aside, then back to Snyder: IMO, one should never feel the NEED to respond to somebody if that person wants to debate their take on a subject. Some seem to often enjoy arguing others' points and defending their own. (Lawyers make a living doing this) They may even want to argue or debate what is posted here right now...fact is, continually debating things is just unnecessary or even boring to some and makes it look like the person who is often debating is just looking to be proclaimed right, or just hear themselves speak. Having a take on a subject doesn't mean one is looking to be "right" or "debated" IMHO.

That said, Gibbs 2.0 is not great numbers-wise, nor is Snyder's win/loss record as an owner. But Snyder isn't a stingy Ralph Wilson-esque owner either (e.g. - it won't be very long w/Snyder before we have a state-of-the art stadium or rebulid here), and Gibbs brought us from 6-10 to 10-6 and a win in the playoffs in just two seasons.
But I think what we've seen is a meltdown of the combination of staff and personnel:
First, due to losing former players AND coaches who produced and attempting to replace them with better: e.g. - Clark w/Archuleta, LaVar w/Holdman (never should have banked on Holdman excelling even though LA had to go), Wynn w/Carter, and most importantly thusfar, GIBBS w/SAUNDERS.
Second, the new free agents our front office chose on the offseason have tanked, with the exception of Randle El.
Third, such a HUGE part of the blame regrettably MUST go to Gibbs - he seems to have completely out-thought HIMSELF w/the hiring of Al Saunders. Just when we started to turn the corner, Gibbs eradicated the approach that created our stability and momentum by hiring Saunders.
Now, it may prove to be successful down the road, but we all know this team wasn't built for years down the road...thusfar, without consistant, significant drafting, it never HAS...and I personally believe the vets left here were annoyed at having to learn an entirely new system again, and it confused the hell out of the young players also. The players once again don't know who to trust or listen to anymore - Gibbs, Al, GW - and moves like trading another high-round pick for Duckett (who may also pan out, but only down the road) sealed the dissention on this team, IMO. Defensively, how can the vets rally around such BLATANT non-producers as Carter and Arch, who are getting paid the MOST on the defense?? That has been the recipe for CANCER, as is evidenced by our near dead-last ranking. No one can tell us it's injuries or other BS...this Defense is mentally screwed up thusfar by the TERRIBLE choices of the front office and Gibbs, and it seems the Oline is screwed up by Saunders and the lack of Gibbs run-first mentality that they had just gotten in synch with.
If we don't see some major differences in attitude and effort from the entire team from Sunday on - ESPECIALLY since we'll have a very young QB talent at the helm - it will be tough to say we'll be in good shape for 2007, either, IMO.
Something can be done, though...Campbell is a start...but on the practice field and in the meetings, Gibbs is now facing the hardest and likely most puzzling challenge in his career so far...that HE orchestrated or at least oversaw, unfortunately...of reuniting a team torn apart by unnecessary instability yet again. Here is where Gibbs either revitalizes his team and corrects his mistakes, or where he bows out soon after, IMO.
We ALL pray it is the former...HTTR.

[PennSkinsFan]

Keino][/B]
I think this tirade is rampant with emotion and isn't straight facts. It's full of frustation (Understandably) but much of that seems to me to be misdirected. The franchise was dysfunctional long before Dan Snyder took over ownership. Having said that, I will address you issues point by point:

1. While it is true that we have a different approach to free agency than most teams, it is inaccurate to say that every year we spend big. It is also inaccurate to say that we aren't getting a better than average return from our free-agents. Sure, there have been some flops, but there have been alot more contributors.

2. So what? Coaching salaries do not impact the salary cap at all, so what do we care how Mr. Snyder spends his money? The number of coaches he has had in terms of turnover is not even a valid criticims in 2006, working on 3straight years of the same coaching regime.

3. Again, not fair. For one, we don't bend rules of the cap, we exploit its loopholes. Nothing wrong with that. Furthermore, I don't buy last year as being fluke. I think this year has been tough due to key injuries that would set-back any franchise. We don't have the luxury of playing in the NFC West, where we can withstand some of our injury issues thanks to a soft schedule. I don't think very many teams would be successful being without their Best D Lineman, Best CB and Elite RB.

4. Is Joe Gibbs record Snyder's fault or Gibbs' fault?

5. Every team has raised ticket prices in the last 6 years. Supply and Demand dictate that he can and will still have a demand for his tickets. He puts that profit back into the franchise unlike other owners like Bidwell and Ralph Wilson.

6. A valid criticism, but it should be noted that final say on personnell moves for the last 3 year resides in Joe Gibbs, the Team President.

As for your solutions:

1. I agree. Vinny is pretty worthless, but again, the de facto GM right now is Joe Gibbs. Do you propose to fire Gibbs? I don't

2. Roster hasn't been overhauled in 2 years. We've added pieces that we thought would get us over the top. With being so close to the SB last year, this was absolutely the correct approach this year.

3. The jury is still out. As I mentioned we've had some pretty significant contributions from Free Agents. It's tough to argue that in the last 3 years we haven't done well in free agency, this year's current record not withstanding.

4. That is a coaching issue and not an ownership issue.

5. Oh really, gotten nowhere? How forgetful some of us can be. Player loyalty is a good thing. To argue otherwise seems a bit foolish to me. But again, this is a coaching issue, not an ownership issue. I sseriously doubt the coaches put loyalty to a certin type of player above performance.

6. The guy hired Joe Gibbs and stepped back. What more do you want? I agree that a GM might be helpful, but are you advocating the firing of Joe Gibbs? He is Team President afterall.

Good rebuttals Sean, but I stick with my rebuke of Dan Snyder. I never once intended to say I would give up on Snyder, I just think to this point, the overall management of the franchise has been horrifc and has produced very little for the amount of money spent. Nor did my indictment of Snyder signify innocence of Gibbs. Gibbs mistakes are his. Gibbs owns then and thus far Gibbs II has not been a success.

1. I don't think it is inaccurate at all to say we are heavy in free agency in MOST years of the Snyder regime. For the amount of money we spend, the results are pretty bad in the return the franchise has gotten, not economically, but in success on the field. Any team, any team, any team GM that has ever been interviewed that I have actually seen, will tell you, not to mention just look at the contracts we have, that we are the NFL's big spenders. Sorry, I disagree with the free agent model, i think it sacrifices team chemistry, and clearly, we have been evidence of that.

2. Amount spent on coaches is another indication along with the failed free agency model as to MONEY can not buy championships, except in Snyder's world. I happen to be of the opinion that tying the two spending splurges together, the free agency model Snyder has been on since owning the team and then the exorbiant salaries he pays coaches, well, the success just ain't there. Who cares if he spends that money? I know I don't. I just used as an indicator that the free spending ways of the past 6 years have led to a measley 39-50 record.

3. Fluke? Well, I guess the last ten years have made me a pessimist after getting up each year just to be put back down. If it is not a fluke, then they need to prove it on the field. Injuries on the field do not produce penalties do not produce poor tackling from veteran superstars, etc...

4. Who's fault? Gibbs and Snyder, period. Gibbs has embraced the Snyder mentality as Team president and from what I understand, Snyder is at the table and involved right along with Joe. I'll stick by this assertion.

5. Ticket prices. I cede that issue to ya. That was probably more emotion, paying all of these increases and getting what we have seen. But you are right it is economics. Issue ceded.

6. I don't think all the moves of the past three years reside on Joe Gibbs alone, but yes, he ultimately is responsible, but Snyder is right there involved, right from the mouth of Joe Gibbs, not to mention others.

I'll leave the fixes along because they really were tirades on fixing things because I am not an NFL professional, they are just my opinions.

[Skins7ny]

and from what I understand, Snyder is at the table and involved right along with Joe. I'll stick by this assertion.

I keep hearing rumors about Snyder's continued meddling, but I have not read any news reports about it. Does anyone have any links to stories about this?

Skinfan43, I think your post was very interesting and insightful.

[shally]

I keep hearing rumors about Snyder's continued meddling, but I have not read any news reports about it. Does anyone have any links to stories about this?

Skinfan43, I think your post was very interesting and insightful.

think this through... having worked under cooke, do you really think that gibbs would return to work under a meddling snyder ? i think snyder gets tarred for his past poor behavior... until gibbs says something in public that would indicate that snyder is a problem, snyder gets a pass from me..

[shally]

A quick aside, then back to Snyder: IMO, one should never feel the NEED to respond to somebody if that person wants to debate their take on a subject. Some seem to often enjoy arguing others' points and defending their own. (Lawyers make a living doing this) They may even want to argue or debate what is posted here right now...fact is, continually debating things is just unnecessary or even boring to some and makes it look like the person who is often debating is just looking to be proclaimed right, or just hear themselves speak. Having a take on a subject doesn't mean one is looking to be "right" or "debated" IMHO.

That said, Gibbs 2.0 is not great numbers-wise, nor is Snyder's win/loss record as an owner. But Snyder isn't a stingy Ralph Wilson-esque owner either (e.g. - it won't be very long w/Snyder before we have a state-of-the art stadium or rebulid here), and Gibbs brought us from 6-10 to 10-6 and a win in the playoffs in just two seasons.
But I think what we've seen is a meltdown of the combination of staff and personnel:
First, due to losing former players AND coaches who produced and attempting to replace them with better: e.g. - Clark w/Archuleta, LaVar w/Holdman (never should have banked on Holdman excelling even though LA had to go), Wynn w/Carter, and most importantly thusfar, GIBBS w/SAUNDERS.
Second, the new free agents our front office chose on the offseason have tanked, with the exception of Randle El.
Third, such a HUGE part of the blame regrettably MUST go to Gibbs - he seems to have completely out-thought HIMSELF w/the hiring of Al Saunders. Just when we started to turn the corner, Gibbs eradicated the approach that created our stability and momentum by hiring Saunders.
Now, it may prove to be successful down the road, but we all know this team wasn't built for years down the road...thusfar, without consistant, significant drafting, it never HAS...and I personally believe the vets left here were annoyed at having to learn an entirely new system again, and it confused the hell out of the young players also. The players once again don't know who to trust or listen to anymore - Gibbs, Al, GW - and moves like trading another high-round pick for Duckett (who may also pan out, but only down the road) sealed the dissention on this team, IMO. Defensively, how can the vets rally around such BLATANT non-producers as Carter and Arch, who are getting paid the MOST on the defense?? That has been the recipe for CANCER, as is evidenced by our near dead-last ranking. No one can tell us it's injuries or other BS...this Defense is mentally screwed up thusfar by the TERRIBLE choices of the front office and Gibbs, and it seems the Oline is screwed up by Saunders and the lack of Gibbs run-first mentality that they had just gotten in synch with.
If we don't see some major differences in attitude and effort from the entire team from Sunday on - ESPECIALLY since we'll have a very young QB talent at the helm - it will be tough to say we'll be in good shape for 2007, either, IMO.
Something can be done, though...Campbell is a start...but on the practice field and in the meetings, Gibbs is now facing the hardest and likely most puzzling challenge in his career so far...that HE orchestrated or at least oversaw, unfortunately...of reuniting a team torn apart by unnecessary instability yet again. Here is where Gibbs either revitalizes his team and corrects his mistakes, or where he bows out soon after, IMO.
We ALL pray it is the former...HTTR.

i agree that gibbs may have outthought himself this year... but i do not think he is planning to retire.. it was reported somewhere this week that gibbs was reviewing potential free agents for this up coming off season..
i still think gibbs enjoys much of the job-- although i am sure he does not like losing on sunday..


as for the free agents..ARE is a definite keeper.. carter seems to be getting better as the season progresses. at least he is not lost and should improve.
lloyd has shown what he can do if only the ball is thrown his way. more than anyone, i think he will benefit fromthe change to JC..
fauria is a bust.. arch ? he is a lightning rod givenhis high salary, but i still think that GW needs to find a way to use what he does best--tackle

[joethefan]

Walsh (as much as I hate to admit it) and Jimmy Johnson in his first go-round are two of the only ones to do it themselves in the modern era (Belicheck has Pioli, Sherman has Sunquisdt).



I don't know about the Jimmy Johnson thing...jerry has always been the GM since he bought that team from what i learned. I asked a couple of dallas fans that question and they all said that Jerry was the GM when Jimmy was there....Now I can't speak for walsh....

In this new era...and with gibbs being out of the loop for so long...he almost needed a GM when he got back....At least to slow snyder down...that is why this equation hasn't worked because Vinnie is Dan's yes man.And danny doesn't like anyone going against him for any reason....that is why the league doesn't really respect Vinnie cause they know he's danny's butt boy....

[bergiemoore]

Okay, so we've established that Dan Synder, and his spending ways are evil. How do they get fixed?

For one thing, I really don't see the causal connection between free spending and crappy on-field performance, but let's say there is one. Does this mean that we stop buying talent on the FA market, and settle for draft picks to fill current needs, or do we just try and pay them less? I agree that we need to develop a youth movement, but immediate needs need to be filled immediately by players that are proven. Without Danny's heavy spending, ARE would be in Chicago right now.

When it comes to coaching, we are lucky that there is no cap to what we can spend. I feel that the Saunders acquisition was made to address the long term health of this franchise. It really sucks that our guys have taken so long to adjust, but there is no doubt in my mind that this offense will improve over the next season.

The funk this team is in right now is rather pervasive, and eludes any one explanation I've seen. I think that the Skins are caught in a perfect storm of events, one I hope will teach them how to avoid this in the future. I can't fault Danny for taking advantage of the loopholes in the salary cap, and his own deep pockets to try and improve the team.

[redskin_rich]

I don't know about the Jimmy Johnson thing...jerry has always been the GM since he bought that team from what i learned. I asked a couple of dallas fans that question and they all said that Jerry was the GM when Jimmy was there....Now I can't speak for walsh....

In this new era...and with gibbs being out of the loop for so long...he almost needed a GM when he got back....At least to slow snyder down...that is why this equation hasn't worked because Vinnie is Dan's yes man.And danny doesn't like anyone going against him for any reason....that is why the league doesn't really respect Vinnie cause they know he's danny's butt boy....
I bet you heard that from a Dallas fan. Well, it's simply not true. Jimmy Johnson was the architect of the '90s Cowboys. Jimmy Johnson has admitted many times that his strengths were in personnel and not X's and O's. Bill Walsh was an X's and O's coach and was not a GM for the 49ers during the 80's, Carmen Policy was the GM.

I do think we need a GM but I don't agree with this blaming of Snyder. Gibbs made these decisions, they were not forced upon him.

[PennSkinsFan]

Okay, so we've established that Dan Synder, and his spending ways are evil. How do they get fixed?

For one thing, I really don't see the causal connection between free spending and crappy on-field performance, but let's say there is one. Does this mean that we stop buying talent on the FA market, and settle for draft picks to fill current needs, or do we just try and pay them less? I agree that we need to develop a youth movement, but immediate needs need to be filled immediately by players that are proven. Without Danny's heavy spending, ARE would be in Chicago right now.

When it comes to coaching, we are lucky that there is no cap to what we can spend. I feel that the Saunders acquisition was made to address the long term health of this franchise. It really sucks that our guys have taken so long to adjust, but there is no doubt in my mind that this offense will improve over the next season.

The funk this team is in right now is rather pervasive, and eludes any one explanation I've seen. I think that the Skins are caught in a perfect storm of events, one I hope will teach them how to avoid this in the future. I can't fault Danny for taking advantage of the loopholes in the salary cap, and his own deep pockets to try and improve the team.

The only I thing I advocated about spending and performance is that it seems each year we bring in several free agents, while letting ours go, and then it takes so long to develop chemistry. It seems each and every year chemistry could be an issue and several players have been quoted this year as saying somehow we need to develop choesion. If you are consistently leaving players go that worked well in the system, learned to play with each other, then replacing them with new players, player relationships with one another and knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each becomes a new process again and again and again. Look at the article that reflected this sceario with taylor's performance based on Clark's departure.

Do I think this is the entire problem? Absolutely not. But it is part of the problem.

[bergiemoore]

I do think we need a GM but I don't agree with this blaming of Snyder. Gibbs made these decisions, they were not forced upon him.

I agree on all points. Thank you for stating this so succinctly.

[akhhorus]

I don't know about the Jimmy Johnson thing...jerry has always been the GM since he bought that team from what i learned. I asked a couple of dallas fans that question and they all said that Jerry was the GM when Jimmy was there....Now I can't speak for walsh....

In this new era...and with gibbs being out of the loop for so long...he almost needed a GM when he got back....At least to slow snyder down...that is why this equation hasn't worked because Vinnie is Dan's yes man.And danny doesn't like anyone going against him for any reason....that is why the league doesn't really respect Vinnie cause they know he's danny's butt boy....

Jerry was the GM for the Boys, which is probably one of the reasons Jimmy left. Walsh was his own GM and ironically enough, I believe Vinny Cerrato was one of his FO assistants there too. He then left to go to Notre Dame as Director of Scouting under Holtz I believe.

We could have 5 GMs with Snyder locked in a crypt, and it won't matter. The problem isn't talent acquisition, its play on the field. I don't see how a real GM would have prevented Rogers, M Washington, Marshall, Cooley and Brunell from regressing or stopped Portis from getting hurt so much.

[bergiemoore]

The only I thing I advocated about spending and performance is that it seems each year we bring in several free agents, while letting ours go, and then it takes so long to develop chemistry. It seems each and every year chemistry could be an issue and several players have been quoted this year as saying somehow we need to develop choesion. If you are consistently leaving players go that worked well in the system, learned to play with each other, then replacing them with new players, player relationships with one another and knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each becomes a new process again and again and again. Look at the article that reflected this sceario with taylor's performance based on Clark's departure.

Do I think this is the entire problem? Absolutely not. But it is part of the problem.

You are definitely right that we need to do a better job of holding on to proven players, such as Clark, Peirce, and hell, even Smoot.

What irks me is when we start hearing mediots criticize the amount of money that the FAs and coaches get paid, as if that has anything to do with their performance.

We certainly need help in the FO evaluating talent, both inside and outside Redskin park.

[BandWagon]

Clarifying question....Does Marty operate with/under a GM in San Diego now?

[akhhorus]

Clarifying question....Does Marty operate with/under a GM in San Diego now?

He's had to deal with two of them, and he's been trying to get the owner to fire the current GM so he can be the GM(and the owner is weighting firing both of them unless they reach the Super Bowl).

[BandWagon]

He's had to deal with two of them, and he's been trying to get the owner to fire the current GM so he can be the GM(and the owner is weighting firing both of them unless they reach the Super Bowl).

Interesting. So that would support the arguement of Marty being a good coach and a bad GM vis a vis the success of the Chargers as result of effective player acquistion/management?

[akhhorus]

Interesting. So that would support the arguement of Marty being a good coach and a bad GM vis a vis the success of the Chargers as result of effective player acquistion/management?

AJ Smith has been a great drafter for them and has provided Marty with one of the best rosters in football, but Marty's such a fricking control freak that he just has to be the GM too. This would lend creedence to Snyder's firing of him over this.

[Apache]

We just need need guys who are strong, healthy, and hungry for a chance to play and prove themselves. Not those overpaid has beens who have already seen the light of day seeking a bigger bankroll. I say, head down to your local farm team and see what they have brewing in the way of lean mean fighting machines. They just might have something to prove and would do it for a smaller paycheck (for awhile anyway) Joe's Redskin type players won't be found from another team begging for more money. Redskin type players are those nobody's who turn into loyal somebody's and is definately hard to find in today's NFL. Eventually those sombody's will demand more money and can be loyal for the right amount of money.

Danny's just a huge fan who happens to be wealthy enough to buy the team and will pay whatever he can if he thinks it will get him a Superbowl which just isn't happening.

[Keino]

Since the year Daniel Snyder actually assumed control of the Redskins, let's consider the following.

1. We have made a major shift in philosophy, rebuking 'general' and more 'expansive' NFL team building philosophy of building through the draft and supplementing a little by free agency, with an all out assault on free agency. Each year we spend big. Each year we overhaul the roster. Yet nothing improves, except a blip here and there. Since Snyder came we regularly trade or spend draft choices on free agents and veterans who have had only some impact and many who are no longer here.

2. Snyder has gone through 5 coaches in 6 years, 4 defensive coordinators, has jacked up NFL coaching salaries way beyond what any NFL franchise would have imagined, yet we get no results. Millions and million spent on assistants, yet otu defense is ranked 30th and our offense is completely anemic. I thought they were the masterminds?

3. Since Snyder has become owner, we have pushed the salary cap to its max, bent rules to fit in the cap, yet, with the powerhouse free agencts and spending level to the maximum, we have one playoff season in 6 years, which is more and more looking like a fluke.

4. Eve Joe Gibbs has a losing record this time back, standing at just 19-22.

5. Snyder has complied an awful 39-50 record, while rasing ticket prices and parking, raking in huge amounts of profit, while fielding a consistent disappointing mediocre team, year in and year out.

6. Despite what many NFL experts say, Vinny Cerrato for some odd reason continues to have Snyder's confidence, something he has not earned with any success.

Looking at the facts and just the facts, not emotions, you can't help but look at the lack of success under this ownership.

What I think can be done to fix it?

1. Fire Vinny Cerrato and hire a proven, professional General Manager to work along side Joe Gibbs and begin a stabilization process with the roster, personnel and organization. Charge the new GM with the power to recreate what we need to do to win and build consistency within the organization.

2. Stop the roster overhauls, it is causing complete dysfunction. There is no cohesiveness, no sense of chemistry because players. Every time players begin to gel, a major factor of that unit is let go, IE Ryan Clark and Antonio Pierce, leaving gaping holes. The philosophy that Gregg William can plug any player into his system, that it is not player based system, is proving to be wrong after two season of taking defensive hits and not retaining our own. The revolving door at Redskins Park has become a plague in itself. There can be no sense of team when so many new players come, and veterans built in the system, depart.

3. Stop relying on the free agency philosophy. It is strangling this franchise. get back to an even keeled mix of draft picks and lower priced free agents. As the author of the Youth Report, it is a depressing year to do it, because in essence, we have little to talk about when it comes to rookies and second year players. There is not one successful team in the NFL right now that have built their team based on the Redskins free agency first policy. The past 4 years is a STINGING rebuke of that mentality.

4. End the philosophy that young players need to sit. That is compeltely ridciulous. This is not 1982 Joe. Today's young players are head over heels in athletic ability and talent. Develope them where many teams do, by playing ont he field.

5. Drop the player loyalty. Hey, it is OK to have a player to be friends with and be loyal to, but to the detriment of the team. You play those who are most effective and if certain players are not effective, then give another an opportunity, just like any other NFL coach would do. There is NO MORE 'Redskins" type players so drop the phrase. This is the new NFL, it is about money and we have been building a roster for 3 years with 'Redskins Type' players and we have gotten NO WHERE! I don't want Redskins type players anymore, I want players who will get to the QB, cover the WRs, not commit penalties, exercise simply basic fundamentals when it comes to tackling, and players that want to be on the field and play with heart. These 'Redskins Type" players w ehave been building for the past three eyasr have not had teh heart every game, have been amazingly inconsistent, and fail to execute basic fundamentals. No thanks.

6. Finally, with the new professional GM, let's stop winging it and build a Team Plan for now and the future, so we don't makes moves like giving up a third rounder for a RB that has carried the ball 7 times in 9 games. Facts are facts, Snyder vowed to ressurrect this franchise and in 6 seasons we are 39-50. Redskisn fans are consistently disappointed, depressed and subject to ridicule. It has been a long time since there has been a winning attitude, consistentcy and resurrection of a great franchise. Mr. Snyder has failed to do that thus far, and prospects do not look good.

7. In essence. Mr. Snyder vowed to ressurect this great franchise but 6 years into it, well, it is just not fun at all being a fan of this team and each and every NFL season seem ot get longer and longer with overlapping disappointnent and disgust. That is what we as Redskins fans have gotten, all with regular price increases, go figure .... When looking at teams like the Texans, Lions, and Cardinals, the only thing that separates us is the incredibel fanbase and optimism of the fans. The thing that separates us from New England, Chicago, and teams like that is a real team plan to build.

Mr. Snyder, we have been an incrediably loyal fanbase, enthusiastic, energetic at times, filled with undying faith, year in and year out, but Mr. Snyder, the back is beginning to break. Please change the philosophy of this franchise before we actually do become like the Detroit Lions. We don't want a consistent loser and the laughing stock of the NFC East. Were well on our way.

Ok Snyderites, defend your owner and this current management philosophy, just remember to look at the record.

This was my post, butchered by PSF, so I decided to repost it. I made this post not having read the entire thread, so please excuse any duplicate points.

I think this tirade is rampant with emotion and isn't straight facts. It's full of frustation (Understandably) but much of that seems to me to be misdirected. The franchise was dysfunctional long before Dan Snyder took over ownership. Having said that, I will address you issues point by point:

1. While it is true that we have a different approach to free agency than most teams, it is inaccurate to say that every year we spend big. It is also inaccurate to say that we aren't getting a better than average return from our free-agents. Sure, there have been some flops, but there have been alot more contributors.

2. So what? Coaching salaries do not impact the salary cap at all, so what do we care how Mr. Snyder spends his money? The number of coaches he has had in terms of turnover is not even a valid criticims in 2006, working on 3straight years of the same coaching regime.

3. Again, not fair. For one, we don't bend rules of the cap, we exploit its loopholes. Nothing wrong with that. Furthermore, I don't buy last year as being fluke. I think this year has been tough due to key injuries that would set-back any franchise. We don't have the luxury of playing in the NFC West, where we can withstand some of our injury issues thanks to a soft schedule. I don't think very many teams would be successful being without their Best D Lineman, Best CB and Elite RB.

4. Is Joe Gibbs record Snyder's fault or Gibbs' fault?

5. Every team has raised ticket prices in the last 6 years. Supply and Demand dictate that he can and will still have a demand for his tickets. He puts that profit back into the franchise unlike other owners like Bidwell and Ralph Wilson.

6. A valid criticism, but it should be noted that final say on personnell moves for the last 3 year resides in Joe Gibbs, the Team President.

As for your solutions:

1. I agree. Vinny is pretty worthless, but again, the de facto GM right now is Joe Gibbs. Do you propose to fire Gibbs? I don't

2. Roster hasn't been overhauled in 2 years. We've added pieces that we thought would get us over the top. With being so close to the SB last year, this was absolutely the correct approach this year.

3. The jury is still out. As I mentioned we've had some pretty significant contributions from Free Agents. It's tough to argue that in the last 3 years we haven't done well in free agency, this year's current record not withstanding.

4. That is a coaching issue and not an ownership issue.

5. Oh really, gotten nowhere? How forgetful some of us can be. Player loyalty is a good thing. To argue otherwise seems a bit foolish to me. But again, this is a coaching issue, not an ownership issue. I sseriously doubt the coaches put loyalty to a certin type of player above performance.

6. The guy hired Joe Gibbs and stepped back. What more do you want? I agree that a GM might be helpful, but are you advocating the firing of Joe Gibbs? He is Team President afterall.

[BurgundyNGold]

Lets be real, Dan Snyder does not put on the pads each week players do, so if your crazy enough to pay 6 bucks for water "who is the smart one??" Snyder did not go out and get Brunell, did not make the often burned (before he got to DC) AA one of the highest paid safeties in the nfl, did not lie about the Lavar Situation when the whole world except those with blinders on knew it was personal with Coaches Lindsey-Williams who also let Clark go when he supported Arrington, did not sign Carter With Abraham on the market he could have received the AA money, Did not move a college safety to middle linebacker when he showed he could be stellar at outside linebacker, did not give up a 3rd round pick for a practically never used rb, he does not call the same plays over and over and over and well you get the picture on that, he does not claim its not the players it's my system that works, he does not play veterans just because they are veterans regardless of poor production, he does not ignore the fact that mike sellars has proven he can run the ball for the tough yards and catch it as well for the short tough yards, Snyder has been too free with the purse strings to the wrong free agents and for that he should take his blame but I suspect he is recieving advise from coaches on the free agents (just my guess), I'll say this, winning games starts with the offensive and defensive lines and neither has played very well, So I'm pulling for JC big time this week, but I'm pulling for the o-line and d-line even more, because I believe the coaches have been a big let down this year!! Huge letdown, the defense lacks the swarm mentality that made them lethal, and the offense can only change formation before the snap, I counted 8-9 Eagles in the box with no adjustment, Poor coaching not poor ownership, Danny just dishes the money. I wonder who made the choice for JC this week Gibbs or Danny?????
Water is only $5. Aside from that, you're spot on. ;)

[redskin_rich]

Water is only $5. Aside from that, you're spot on. ;)
5 bucks for water??? Wow, that almost makes the $7 beer's seem like a bargain.

[BurgundyNGold]

5 bucks for water??? Wow, that almost makes the $7 beer's seem like a bargain.
That's why I buy the $9 rail drinks, lol.

[akhhorus]

Water is only $5. Aside from that, you're spot on. ;)

And John Abraham wasn't a UFA. He would have cost the skins a first.

[redwolf1218]

5 bucks for water??? Wow, that almost makes the $7 beer's seem like a bargain.
7 bucks for 12 ouces? that makes gas seem cheap.

[redskin_rich]

7 bucks for 12 ouces? that makes gas seem cheap.
Actually, it is a 16oz beer if you get an import draught, 20oz domestic draught.

[redwolf1218]

Actually, it is a 16oz beer if you get an import draught, 20oz domestic draught.
hmmm...how's that for a gallon? lol... i dont feel like using the calculator, or thinking. i dont really have a problem with it because i never get to go to the games. but i would want a designated driver for sure.

i dont know if Snyder was a part of this decision to start Campbell. i would love to know though.

[Axegrinder]

I'd like to settle this once and for all.
It's all Gibbs' fault.
If he would've comeback when he was asked the 1st time,we wouldn't be having this conversation.Instead,he let the years slip away,the league and the game changed,and the franchise toiled in mediocrity,at best.
I can say this because here we are,and here he is.

[smoak]

I'd like to settle this once and for all.
It's all Gibbs' fault.
If he would've comeback when he was asked the 1st time,we wouldn't be having this conversation.Instead,he let the years slip away,the league and the game changed,and the franchise toiled in mediocrity,at best.
I can say this because here we are,and here he is.

Yeah its his fault he loves his family and wanted to be involved with his children's lives. What an selfish jerk. :D

[RedskinsDave]

Interesting. So that would support the arguement of Marty being a good coach and a bad GM vis a vis the success of the Chargers as result of effective player acquistion/management?

Well......also, the Chargers offense had problems until Cam Cameron came over and fixed it.

[rusty73]

Yeah its his fault he loves his family and wanted to be involved with his children's lives. What an selfish jerk. :D
I'm glad somebody agrees with THE REAL priorities in this situation!:lol1:

[Axegrinder]

I knew that you guys would catch my sarcasm.

[The Jake]

Watch the personal attacks, they are not tolerated here. Attack the post not the poster. And half a season of disappointment with a ton of injuries does not make you right or wrong. It is what it is.

I guess you forgot that Marty also let Russ Grimm go and last I checked, he is one of the best assistant coaches in the league. I also guess you enjoyed Marty Ball. I didn't, I thought it stunk. I remember being happy to have our opponents score first so Marty couldn't try to nurse a 3 pt lead all game. It was especially funny that Marty tried to reteach Darrell Green how to cover a receiver. Also, that year was not Stephen Davis' most productive as a pro, not by a longshot. Snyder's biggest mistake with Marty was giving him all the control he did.

yea, good thing we aren't playing like those awful chargers.

[The Jake]

Water is only $5. Aside from that, you're spot on. ;)

$6 on the joe gibbs level, had to clarify.

[smoak]

I'm glad somebody agrees with THE REAL priorities in this situation!:lol1:

Exactly! In fact I also think it is Jack Kent Cooke's fault to a degree... I mean he should have never died. That was just selfish...

[akhhorus]

yea, good thing we aren't playing like those awful chargers.

The Chargers have won under Marty because of amazing drafting. Marty has the most talented roster in football(for 2 years now also) and he only went 9-7 last year. He should have been 14-2 with all the talent on that team.

[redskin_rich]

yea, good thing we aren't playing like those awful chargers.
What has Marty won in San Diego? 4 years, 1 playoff appearance for a loss. We have already exceeded that in 2 years under Gibbs.

[The Jake]

What has Marty won in San Diego? 4 years, 1 playoff appearance for a loss. We have already exceeded that in 2 years under Gibbs.

Well to be honest I was against the firing of Marty in the first place because it seemed that the team had come together under him. It reminded me of boot camp where the privates hate the drill sargent and then see that he was only making them better at the end. Maybe I was wrong, but Spurrier made it very easy to second guess that move. He won with TONY BANKS, I don't know of any coach in their right mind that wants Tony Banks under center. Do I prefer Gibbs? Of course, but the firing of Marty started a downward spiral that was only interupted by last year's success. Look at where we are now and where the Chargers are, I think it has more to do with the chargers having a GM than anything else but it's a much better situation. It's just another decision Snyder has made that really makes me believe we will never have sustained success with him as the owner, he trusts no one but Gibbs and Cerrato, and Cerrato is worthless.

[Axegrinder]

Exactly! In fact I also think it is Jack Kent Cooke's fault to a degree... I mean he should have never died. That was just selfish...
I'm going to spin this idea and say that he kept Norv around too long,thus putting us in this position.

[silverspring]

The Chargers have won under Marty because of amazing drafting. Marty has the most talented roster in football(for 2 years now also) and he only went 9-7 last year. He should have been 14-2 with all the talent on that team.

Gimee a break.
I was never a big fan of marty, he was kind of hard to get behind cause he was so gruff. Marty just may not have been the best fit here, we will never really know, but he showed marked success.
And it is ridiculous to write off his success in sandiego because of a good draft. In fact I would argue that being successful with the draft requires better coaching than being successful when building through free agency. Free agency players are suppose to already be mature and know how to play at the nfl level, not to mention they are being hand picked for a system based on a history. Draft players need to be developed no matter how much talent they have I think it can be argued that we have plenty of handpicked free agent super talent that is easily equal to what they have there from the draft.

And if you want to say he should have been 14-2 instead of 9-7, well anyone can argue that gibbs should be 14-2 this year and yet we will be lucky to end up 9-7.

Say what you like but he clearly knows something about coaching.

[akhhorus]

Gimee a break.
I was never a big fan of marty, he was kind of hard to get behind cause he was so gruff. Marty just may not have been the best fit here, we will never really know, but he showed marked success.

He did? Losing the first 5 games and making it to 8-8 was impressive, but calling it marked success is ridiculous(considering we basically had the same record the year before).

And it is ridiculous to write off his success in sandiego because of a good draft. In fact I would argue that being successful with the draft requires better coaching than being successful when building through free agency. Free agency players are suppose to already be mature and know how to play at the nfl level, not to mention they are being hand picked for a system based on a history. Draft players need to be developed no matter how much talent they have I think it can be argued that we have plenty of handpicked free agent super talent that is easily equal to what they have there from the draft.

Everyone around the league says the same thing about Marty: Great coach from Monday until Saturday. He's a terrible game day coach, but he's a great preparer of players during the week. Considering the sheer talent up and down the Chargers since 2004, there's absolutely ZERO excuse for his ineptitude since then. Yes, he's 7-2 this year, but I will bet he finds a way to do nothing come playoff time(or blow his chance at the playoffs).

And if you want to say he should have been 14-2 instead of 9-7, well anyone can argue that gibbs should be 14-2 this year and yet we will be lucky to end up 9-7.

Even 100% healthy, we don't have the talent of the Chargers. They have, I believe, the most talented roster in the NFL.

Say what you like but he clearly knows something about coaching.

Read above. He's great preparing a team, but is a terrible game day coach. And again, considering the sheer talent he has on that team(I count 7 players who count be considered among the Top 10 at their positions in the NFL and another 5 emerging stars) he should be blowing away teams left and right. Instead, he struggles for absolutely no reason based on his players.

[bgforever]

What has Marty won in San Diego? 4 years, 1 playoff appearance for a loss. We have already exceeded that in 2 years under Gibbs.

hm. good points RR!

(though i'd like to be more low profile on it, there's still a slither of a chance for us still too, this year :) )

[silverspring]

He did? Losing the first 5 games and making it to 8-8 was impressive, but calling it marked success is ridiculous(considering we basically had the same record the year before).



Everyone around the league says the same thing about Marty: Great coach from Monday until Saturday. He's a terrible game day coach, but he's a great preparer of players during the week. Considering the sheer talent up and down the Chargers since 2004, there's absolutely ZERO excuse for his ineptitude since then. Yes, he's 7-2 this year, but I will bet he finds a way to do nothing come playoff time(or blow his chance at the playoffs).



Even 100% healthy, we don't have the talent of the Chargers. They have, I believe, the most talented roster in the NFL.



Read above. He's great preparing a team, but is a terrible game day coach. And again, considering the sheer talent he has on that team(I count 7 players who count be considered among the Top 10 at their positions in the NFL and another 5 emerging stars) he should be blowing away teams left and right. Instead, he struggles for absolutely no reason based on his players.

Well I think you are right that his gameday execution seems to be of issue. But i still think he showed something here. Didn't you consider gibb's second year 6 game run marked improvement after the first half of the season was pathetic?
In terms of talent i don't really agree, you are right that their talent is impressive but so is ours. Sure they might have a bit more talent, but as I see it their great talent is just actually producing while ours just looks great on paper and that is a result of coaching. Could marty do a better job, sure, but so could everyone and marty's team at least always has discipline and fundamentals which is suppose to be the easy part to coach.

[akhhorus]

Well I think you are right that his gameday execution seems to be of issue.

Agreed.

But i still think he showed something here. Didn't you consider gibb's second year 6 game run marked improvement after the first half of the season was pathetic?

Marty's 0-5 versus Gibbs' 5-6? No, I don't. Gibbs got them focused, but I wouldn't have called them(2005) pathetic in the first half since they were 5-3 in the first half, then 5-3 to finish the season.

In terms of talent i don't really agree, you are right that their talent is impressive but so is ours. Sure they might have a bit more talent, but as I see it their great talent is just actually producing while ours just looks great on paper and that is a result of coaching. Could marty do a better job, sure, but so could everyone and marty's team at least always has discipline and fundamentals which is suppose to be the easy part to coach.

I think we have about 4, maybe 5 players that could be considered top 10 at their positions(and 2-3 of them might be a stretch), San Diego is loaded. AJ Smith might get fired because of Marty's poisioning Spanos' ear, and I would hire him in a second. He's done an amazing job getting Marty talent and how marty's messed this opportunity up is legendary. Marty did a good job while here as the coach, and Snyder wanted to keep him as coach, but he was a disaster as a GM.

[redskin_rich]

It's funny how something that happened 5 years ago comes to the forefront now. I didn't see any clamoring for Marty last year, nor did I see so many complaints about Snyder on the football side of things.
I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right but let's try to not jump from one extreme to another. Let's all take a seat on the fence and see what happens with the remaining 7 games and then make a judgement. Of course, this is a message board and we will all complain or relish in whatever happened with the last game each week but I think this whole indictment and bringing up the past is reactionary at best.

It's a new day, fellow Redskins fans. We are days away from watching our franchise QB make his first start. When was the last time this happened?

[The Jake]

Could marty do a better job, sure, but so could everyone and marty's team at least always has discipline and fundamentals which is suppose to be the easy part to coach.

I agree with your other points but shawne merriman is suspended for steroids, so the discipline thing has to take a blow there.

[dukeuch]

The biggest problem is what we apy, in salary of picks, for FA's/trades. Can anyone think of any aquistion for which we have not overpaid? I include Portis, who is a wonderful back, but overpaid, and for which we gave up too much (think we'd be better off with Champ, and another RB drafted or traded for? I do.).

[smoak]

I agree with your other points but shawne merriman is suspended for steroids, so the discipline thing has to take a blow there.

Not really. Merriman by all accounts started cheating at UMD in order to get drafted. Merriman is responsible for his actions off the field. On the field he and the Chargers play a "fun to watch" (for me) disciplined style of football.

[danny's stogie]

Well I think you are right that his gameday execution seems to be of issue. But i still think he showed something here. Didn't you consider gibb's second year 6 game run marked improvement after the first half of the season was pathetic?
In terms of talent i don't really agree, you are right that their talent is impressive but so is ours. Sure they might have a bit more talent, but as I see it their great talent is just actually producing while ours just looks great on paper and that is a result of coaching. Could marty do a better job, sure, but so could everyone and marty's team at least always has discipline and fundamentals which is suppose to be the easy part to coach.

Huh? Who was the last Joe Gibbs player to get shot by a police officer?

[akhhorus]

Not really. Merriman by all accounts started cheating at UMD in order to get drafted. Merriman is responsible for his actions off the field. On the field he and the Chargers play a "fun to watch" (for me) disciplined style of football.

Yes, but the Chargers drafted Luis Castillo in that draft also, and he had been busted for roids right before the draft. They knew what they were getting into. Merriman also went from too small to play LB to ultra aggressive and huge in about 18 months in Umd. Even if he started at UMD, Marty is responsible(to varying degrees) to what his players now do.


The biggest problem is what we apy, in salary of picks, for FA's/trades. Can anyone think of any aquistion for which we have not overpaid? I include Portis, who is a wonderful back, but overpaid, and for which we gave up too much (think we'd be better off with Champ, and another RB drafted or traded for? I do.).

Moss, Rabach, Lemar Marshall, Thrash, Marcus Washington, Griffin, Philip Daniels, Springs.

[smoak]

Yes, but the Chargers drafted Luis Castillo in that draft also, and he had been busted for roids right before the draft. They knew what they were getting into. Merriman also went from too small to play LB to ultra aggressive and huge in about 18 months in Umd. Even if he started at UMD, Marty is responsible(to varying degrees) to what his players now do.

I get it. You're anti-Marty. But in fairness you can't take away his success by hiding behind the "its the GM banner" and then in the next breath blame him for player acquistion mistakes. Which is? Truthfully, I think he and the GM share blame AND credit. The man can coach and it is silly to think otherwise given his record. Now again, if you want to say "he can't win in big games", there isn't anything anyone can say to defend him. But I don't get the assertion that he is a "bad coach".

And in terms or "responsibility", my personal theory is just that if the player hid it, then it is their responsibility (especially at the professional level). Once a coach becomes aware of a situation then it is 100% their responsibility. Until then, SM is an adult and should be accountable for his actions off the field. The NFL must somewhat agree with that theory b/c they suspend players for violating the substance abuse policies and not coaches (although I think coaches should be held accountable if they were aware of the situation and turned a blind eye).

[akhhorus]

I get it. You're anti-Marty. But in fairness you can't take away his success by hiding behind the "its the GM banner" and then in the next breath blame him for player acquistion mistakes. Which is? Truthfully, I think he and the GM share blame AND credit. The man can coach and it is silly to think otherwise given his record. Now again, if you want to say "he can't win in big games", there isn't anything anyone can say to defend him. But I don't get the assertion that he is a "bad coach".

No, you don't get it. AJ Smith is to blame for drafting Castillo even after he was busted for roids and for Merriman(Castillo hasn't been busted for roids in the NFL, and you know they are testing him). Marty is responsible(to what degree is open for debate) for Merriman getting busted for roids as a chargers since he is the coach and ultimately he's responsible for the players on the field. As far as I know, Merriman never got busted at Umd.

And in terms or "responsibility", my personal theory is just that if the player hid it, then it is their responsibility (especially at the professional level). Once a coach becomes aware of a situation then it is 100% their responsibility. Until then, SM is an adult and should be accountable for his actions off the field. The NFL must somewhat agree with that theory b/c they suspend players for violating the substance abuse policies and not coaches (although I think coaches should be held accountable if they were aware of the situation and turned a blind eye).

The coach has to have some responsiblity. He's responsible for the players on the field each week and if one of his best isn't on the field, then he's semi-responsible for why not(How much is open for debate). Marvin Lewis didn't do the plethora of things that the Bengals have been arrested for, but he is responsible for not having control of that team and instituting discipline. Same goes for Marty, he's not directly responsible for Merriman doing roids(or any of the plethora of arrests on the Chargers this year), but he is responsible for not having the team disciplined enough so that this wouldn't happen. Can you see these situations happening with Gibbs, Parcells, Cowher? Or can you see that player lasting more than 10 seconds with the team after they found out about the roids? I hate to, but I give Norv credit for dumping Hollenquest and Wycheck for Roids, no matter how much it hurt the team.

[RedskinsDave]

It's still being ignored that Marty was killing all that talent in SD until Cam Cameron took over the OC duties.

[smoak]

No, you don't get it. AJ Smith is to blame for drafting Castillo even after he was busted for roids and for Merriman(Castillo hasn't been busted for roids in the NFL, and you know they are testing him). Marty is responsible(to what degree is open for debate) for Merriman getting busted for roids as a chargers since he is the coach and ultimately he's responsible for the players on the field. As far as I know, Merriman never got busted at Umd.



The coach has to have some responsiblity. He's responsible for the players on the field each week and if one of his best isn't on the field, then he's semi-responsible for why not(How much is open for debate). Marvin Lewis didn't do the plethora of things that the Bengals have been arrested for, but he is responsible for not having control of that team and instituting discipline. Same goes for Marty, he's not directly responsible for Merriman doing roids(or any of the plethora of arrests on the Chargers this year), but he is responsible for not having the team disciplined enough so that this wouldn't happen. Can you see these situations happening with Gibbs, Parcells, Cowher? Or can you see that player lasting more than 10 seconds with the team after they found out about the roids? I hate to, but I give Norv credit for dumping Hollenquest and Wycheck for Roids, no matter how much it hurt the team.

Yes a coach is responsible. Their responsibility is to make a rule and enforce it consistently when it is broken. As we don't know what has taken place in the SD lockerroom any argument on either side of Marty's degree of responsibility is pointless.

Comparing him to Marvin Lewis is absurd IMO. Lewis is a VERY good coach, but how many people on that team had altercations with the law and league since he was HC? It is laughable and obviously a case where the inmates are running the asylum. Gibbs (Manley), Parcells (LT), and Cowher (Morris) all had players with varying degrees of issues, and addressed them in different ways. Again, I think the responsility is to be as premptive as possible (with rules) and react as soon as you know a player has violated them. You can't follow adults around all day to pull needles out of their arm before they hit the plunger. What you can do is suspend them or bench them to the maximum allowed by the collective bargaining agreement. Outside of that there isn't much you can do.

I'm not comparing MS to Lombardi, but I still don't get how some so easily dismiss his results.

[shally]

It's still being ignored that Marty was killing all that talent in SD until Cam Cameron took over the OC duties.


hear hear... cam should get eventual consideration as a HC... his move to univ of indiana was probably a mistake in retrospect, even if it was as a head coach.. that place is a graveyard (great school , however)

[shally]

Yes a coach is responsible. Their responsibility is to make a rule and enforce it consistently when it is broken. As we don't know what has taken place in the SD lockerroom any argument on either side of Marty's degree of responsibility is pointless.

Comparing him to Marvin Lewis is absurd IMO. Lewis is a VERY good coach, but how many people on that team had altercations with the law and league since he was HC? It is laughable and obviously a case where the inmates are running the asylum. Gibbs (Manley), Parcells (LT), and Cowher (Morris) all had players with varying degrees of issues, and addressed them in different ways. Again, I think the responsility is to be as premptive as possible (with rules) and react as soon as you know a player has violated them. You can't follow adults around all day to pull needles out of their arm before they hit the plunger. What you can do is suspend them or bench them to the maximum allowed by the collective bargaining agreement. Outside of that there isn't much you can do.

I'm not comparing MS to Lombardi, but I still don't get how some so easily dismiss his results.

marv is a good coach.. but i think we need to wait some before decalring him ready for canton.. his defenses have not performed that well overall (ironic)
and he has run a loose ship, or at least collected a lot of questionable characters

[redskin_rich]

I'm not comparing MS to Lombardi, but I still don't get how some so easily dismiss his results.
Results? You mean his 5-12 record in the playoffs. Marty hasn't won a playoff game since 1993. Jerry Glanville has a better playoff record than Marty.

[smoak]

Results? You mean his 5-12 record in the playoffs. Marty hasn't won a playoff game since 1993. Jerry Glanville has a better playoff record than Marty.

Yep. I said he stinks come playoff time and he is the Peyton Manning of the coaching world.

But he came to the Skins at a time when the player walked all over the previous coach. I wasn't concerned about losing in the playoffs b/c we only went to the playoffs once in the previous 8 or 9 years. Again, I am not nominating him for coach of the year, but he has gotten pretty good regular season results.

[BandWagon]

Results? You mean his 5-12 record in the playoffs. Marty hasn't won a playoff game since 1993. Jerry Glanville has a better playoff record than Marty.
What does Parcells say...you are what your record is? Marty is 193-126-1 with 2 losing seasons since 1984 and 10 seasons with 10+ victories (13 twice). And you are correct about the playoff record.

[rusty73]

Hail Marty, Jeeesch. Past History:banghead:

[shally]

Results? You mean his 5-12 record in the playoffs. Marty hasn't won a playoff game since 1993. Jerry Glanville has a better playoff record than Marty.

mr mediocrity..... water always seeks its own level.. marty's is .500

[smoak]

mr mediocrity..... water always seeks its own level.. marty's is .500

Only if your definition of mediocrity is great in the regular season and garbage in the post? If he had a Super Bowl we'd be talking about a Hall of Fame coach here. No matter what our opinions say he has the numbers.

But that post season. UGH!

I really am no the president of the fan club but we are not being fair in calling the man garbage... Unless you mean in the post season. It is interesting that he has even spawn some coaches similar to him most notably Tony Dungy.

[akhhorus]

Yes a coach is responsible. Their responsibility is to make a rule and enforce it consistently when it is broken. As we don't know what has taken place in the SD lockerroom any argument on either side of Marty's degree of responsibility is pointless.

Doesn't matter. The captain of a ship is responsible if it sinks or messes up whether he was on the bridge or not. The Coach should know his lockerroom and not allow these problems to even fester before they become public.

Comparing him to Marvin Lewis is absurd IMO. Lewis is a VERY good coach, but how many people on that team had altercations with the law and league since he was HC? It is laughable and obviously a case where the inmates are running the asylum. Gibbs (Manley), Parcells (LT), and Cowher (Morris) all had players with varying degrees of issues, and addressed them in different ways. Again, I think the responsility is to be as premptive as possible (with rules) and react as soon as you know a player has violated them. You can't follow adults around all day to pull needles out of their arm before they hit the plunger. What you can do is suspend them or bench them to the maximum allowed by the collective bargaining agreement. Outside of that there isn't much you can do.

I'm not comparing MS to Lombardi, but I still don't get how some so easily dismiss his results.

And the Chargers have had at least 4 or 5 arrests(and the Feds are reported investigating a few others as part of a drug ring) in the last year under Marty. Sounds like they're just as bad as Cincy. It doesn't matter if the coach knows or not, he's responsible to varying degrees if his team has off the field incidents.