GM Poll

[PennSkinsFan]

There is so much discussion going on with this, let's just see where hR is as a Nation

[redskin_rich]

I went with the 2nd option, as I think we need to upgrade our scouting and player personnel departments *cough -fire bugeyes- cough* but when and if a proven GM is available, I would like us to hire him.

[joethefan]

I said yes because i witnessed the true formula for winning in Gibbs 1.0 winning 3SB's while having a GM. Now when more Head Coach/GM/Team Presidents ect..win more SB's, then I may be compelled to change but that's years from now...IMO.

[joethefan]

I went with the 2nd option, as I think we need to upgrade our scouting and player personnel departments *cough -fire bugeyes- cough* but when and if a proven GM is available, I would like us to hire him.

What if one come availables befire upgrading the scouting dept? would he come with his own people? (I don't even know if that's possible).

[redskin_rich]

What if one come availables befire upgrading the scouting dept? would he come with his own people? (I don't even know if that's possible).
Regardless with whether or not a good GM is available, I would fire Vinny and look for his replacement first. I don't think GM's bring their scouting departments or even the heads of which with them, so that shouldn't matter.

[akhhorus]

If Campbell, Rocky and Rogers all pan out as solid players along with a majority of free agents playing well(and the number of FA players playing well is still in Gibbs' favor) , we aren't having this discussion. Its too early imo. But, Gibbs has acquired:
Portis, Moss, Griff, Golston, Carter, Taylor, Cooley, Brunell(hit and miss), M. Washington, Springs, Rogers(hit and miss), Rabach(hit and miss), Sellers etc etc.

Arch, Lloyd, Holdman, Wright, maybe ARE, McCune, Newberry, White, Broughton, Wilson and Molinaro were misses.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I would like to vote for option D. We need a GM AND we need to upgrade our front office staff (and cut down our coaching staff).

[dj_stouty]

Regardless with whether or not a good GM is available, I would fire Vinny and look for his replacement first. I don't think GM's bring their scouting departments or even the heads of which with them, so that shouldn't matter.

This was also my line of thinking when I voted option 2.

I think Vinny needs to go, before anything happens.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

If Campbell, Rocky and Rogers all pan out as solid players along with a majority of free agents playing well(and the number of FA players playing well is still in Gibbs' favor) , we aren't having this discussion. Its too early imo. But, Gibbs has acquired:
Portis, Moss, Griff, Golston, Carter, Taylor, Cooley, Brunell(hit and miss), M. Washington, Springs, Rogers(hit and miss), Rabach(hit and miss), Sellers etc etc.

Arch, Lloyd, Holdman, Wright, maybe ARE, McCune, Newberry, White, Broughton, Wilson and Molinaro were misses.
Washington and Springs so far have had 2 good years and 1 horrible one. Wouldn't you count them as hit and miss?

[akhhorus]

Washington and Springs so far have had 2 good years and 1 horrible one. Wouldn't you count them as hit and miss?

As much as Washington has struggled this year, he's still a hit. He had 2 dominating seasons and now he's Marcus Tierney. Springs has struggled this year, but he just hasn't been healthy at year.

[CNYSkinFan]

I would like to vote for option D. We need a GM AND we need to upgrade our front office staff (and cut down our coaching staff).
Yeah I agree with this. But given Gibbs does not want a GM and possibly will cause more tension in the FO, I voted for option B. Fire the entire scouting department and Cerrato IMO.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

As much as Washington has struggled this year, he's still a hit. He had 2 dominating seasons and now he's Marcus Tierney. Springs has struggled this year, but he just hasn't been healthy at year.
Ok with Marcus. But I have my doubts that Springs can be counted on to be fully healthy in the future.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Yeah I agree with this. But given Gibbs does not want a GM and possibly will cause more tension in the FO, I voted for option B. Fire the entire scouting department and Cerrato IMO.
Yeah. Until Gibbs leaves (hopefully not very soon), option A is not a realistic possibility unfortunately. So having to choose my realistic preference, I would vote B. But I'm not that sure that B is very realistic either..

[akhhorus]

Ok with Marcus. But I have my doubts that Springs can be counted on to be fully healthy in the future.

Agreed. But he did play extremely well for us for 2 seasons.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Agreed. But he did play extremely well for us for 2 seasons.
Absolutely. An ideal situation IMO would be to keep him one more year at CB (healthy), and then move him to safety. That would mean he was a fantastic FA signing.

[smoak]

Gibbs has three times as many hits than misses, and by all accounts the misses are guys GW wanted... So I choose to ride the wave with the HOF coach.

The difficult journey is what makes the destination so special IMO.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Gibbs has three times as many hits than misses, and by all accounts the misses are guys GW wanted... So I choose to ride the wave with the HOF coach.

The difficult journey is what makes the destination so special IMO.
Has the ride really been that bad so far? We can't really say until this year is out, but lets say we win 3 of the last 4, finish 7-9 while winning 4 out of last 6. After last year's run (throwing out the first year, because anything you get in year one of a coaching change is gravy), has it really been that bad?

At 7-9, it would be a down year, no doubt, but not a break-up the team this thing isn't working year. Maybe our expectations were too high to begin with, or maybe with the media saturation of today's NFL we just wallow too much.

[joethefan]

Has the ride really been that bad so far? We can't really say until this year is out, but lets say we win 3 of the last 4, finish 7-9 while winning 4 out of last 6. After last year's run (throwing out the first year, because anything you get in year one of a coaching change is gravy), has it really been that bad?

At 7-9, it would be a down year, no doubt, but not a break-up the team this thing isn't working year. Maybe our expectations were too high to begin with, or maybe with the media saturation of today's NFL we just wallow too much.

The Problem wasn't our expectations of going to the show, the problem was the fact that Gibbs brought in Sanders (which i agreed with).As opposed to bringing in another weapon or two and building on last year, keeping everything the same, thus leading to our offensive woes, and signing off on the GW shopping spree in that with one player is finally turning the corner but the other is getting sour by the day...

[skins111111]

trust in Gibbs.............he is unbelievable, he crosses evry T and dots every I
he leaves no stone unturned. Sure hes gonna make some mistakes but his success rate will be higher than anyone I can think of.

[shally]

There is so much discussion going on with this, let's just see where hR is as a Nation


we need one..

we wont get one as long as gibbs is in charge.. it wont happen

[silverspring]

If Campbell, Rocky and Rogers all pan out as solid players along with a majority of free agents playing well(and the number of FA players playing well is still in Gibbs' favor) , we aren't having this discussion. Its too early imo. But, Gibbs has acquired:
Portis, Moss, Griff, Golston, Carter, Taylor, Cooley, Brunell(hit and miss), M. Washington, Springs, Rogers(hit and miss), Rabach(hit and miss), Sellers etc etc.

Arch, Lloyd, Holdman, Wright, maybe ARE, McCune, Newberry, White, Broughton, Wilson and Molinaro were misses.

We have had a lot of busts, and most of those busts are free agents that cost us a bzillion dollars. The draft busts are negligible because at least they aren't that pricey.

But to me, it isn't so much who he has required but how. Throwing away cap money and draft picks like we do is not sustainable. THere is no restraint being exhibited by gibbs.

[firehawk157]

If Campbell, Rocky and Rogers all pan out as solid players along with a majority of free agents playing well(and the number of FA players playing well is still in Gibbs' favor) , we aren't having this discussion. Its too early imo. But, Gibbs has acquired:
Portis, Moss, Griff, Golston, Carter, Taylor, Cooley, Brunell(hit and miss), M. Washington, Springs, Rogers(hit and miss), Rabach(hit and miss), Sellers etc etc.

Arch, Lloyd, Holdman, Wright, maybe ARE, McCune, Newberry, White, Broughton, Wilson and Molinaro were misses.

My one issue with this is they has been struggling with the rest of the receiving corps. Moss has one third of the production of last year (generally) and we aren't calling him hit and miss. We just haven't utilized them as necessary. I expect once Campbell gains his feet (so to speak) and we go into the offense and tailor it around the personnel we have (tinker, not tear down Gibbs) and bring back Portis fully healthy, we will see a rise in all these guys' production. Even so, ARE is not a bust at all, he has scored a special teams TD, a key TD in a win and is just electrifying on returns. I blame his misuse on predictable playcalling. He's no longer the dangerous wildcard he should be because we know at least one reverse or reverse / WR option comes each game. And for McCune, Newberry, White and Broughton; nobody expects a late-round draft pick to really do much, so its not really a bust because nothing was expected of them.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

The Problem wasn't our expectations of going to the show, the problem was the fact that Gibbs brought in Sanders (which i agreed with).As opposed to bringing in another weapon or two and building on last year, keeping everything the same, thus leading to our offensive woes, and signing off on the GW shopping spree in that with one player is finally turning the corner but the other is getting sour by the day...
I get what you're saying and this point has no value if we finish 4-12, but what if we do finish say 7-9 winning 4 out of last 6. Could you feel better about this season and where we're going next year? Gibbs II has not been more wins than loses, but has it really been that bad? Does anybody else remember the 90's and the earlier part of this decade? I don't think this team under Gibbs II has been bad enough to blow the whole thing up...yet.

[firehawk157]

We have had a lot of busts, and most of those busts are free agents that cost us a bzillion dollars. The draft busts are negligible because at least they aren't that pricey.

But to me, it isn't so much who he has required but how. Throwing away cap money and draft picks like we do is not sustainable. THere is no restraint being exhibited by gibbs.

If Arch turns into a good LBer in the offseason (a la Urlacher), and Lloyd's and ARE's troubles turn out to be turmoil in the QB-position related (they increase their production [which they already have] with Campbell's progression), then what would you think about a GM? In that case, our only "high-priced" busts would be Holdman, who counts $470k to the cap and is on the last year of the contract (always the highest $ amount) and Wright, who also counts $470k to the cap and is a FA next year as well.
We do need to cut or restructure Wynn's contract, he counts $4.03 mil against the cap in 07.

[PyroGenic]

I think we need a GM but also need to do an overhaul on the whole scouting department. That's why I think we have FAs that don't fit our schemes.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

If Arch turns into a good LBer in the offseason (a la Urlacher), and Lloyd's and ARE's troubles turn out to be turmoil in the QB-position related (they increase their production [which they already have] with Campbell's progression), then what would you think about a GM? In that case, our only "high-priced" busts would be Holdman, who counts $470k to the cap and is on the last year of the contract (always the highest $ amount) and Wright, who also counts $470k to the cap and is a FA next year as well.
We do need to cut or restructure Wynn's contract, he counts $4.03 mil against the cap in 07.
Archuleta has as much of a chance as turning into Urlacher as I do.

[akhhorus]

We have had a lot of busts, and most of those busts are free agents that cost us a bzillion dollars. The draft busts are negligible because at least they aren't that pricey.

But to me, it isn't so much who he has required but how. Throwing away cap money and draft picks like we do is not sustainable. THere is no restraint being exhibited by gibbs.

Not really. We protected ourselves with the structure of the contracts in case they were busts. We'll be fine.

[smoak]

Has the ride really been that bad so far? We can't really say until this year is out, but lets say we win 3 of the last 4, finish 7-9 while winning 4 out of last 6. After last year's run (throwing out the first year, because anything you get in year one of a coaching change is gravy), has it really been that bad?

At 7-9, it would be a down year, no doubt, but not a break-up the team this thing isn't working year. Maybe our expectations were too high to begin with, or maybe with the media saturation of today's NFL we just wallow too much.

No, I personally would take 1 playoff appearance every two years (on average) from a head coach. I'm not one who is that upset. I think Gibbs took over a putrid franchise and cleaned house of a lot of garbage. My only "complaint" personally is that we got the ship headed in the right direction and rolled the dice the second the NFL got a new deal. AA, Lloyd, ARE, Carter, Fauria... They all got too much money IMO. I have never agreed with the lopsided draft pick trades, but when I complained post the draft about the deal we used to get Rocky, I was ripped for the most part. Now that we arent winning, everyone is griping along with me.

I think Gibbs gets a good grade so far with the only knock being 1) the giving away of picks and 2) the lack of a slow transition of power to AS and GW. I think we need both guys and the system will work, but Gibbs should have slowly given them more power over time. Other than that, I see Gibbs as having gotten rid of malcontents and brought in a lot of key championship caliber players.

[joethefan]

No, I personally would take 1 playoff appearance every two years (on average) from a head coach. I'm not one who is that upset. I think Gibbs took over a putrid franchise and cleaned house of a lot of garbage. My only "complaint" personally is that we got the ship headed in the right direction and rolled the dice the second the NFL got a new deal. AA, Lloyd, ARE, Carter, Fauria... They all got too much money IMO. I have never agreed with the lopsided draft pick trades, but when I complained post the draft about the deal we used to get Rocky, I was ripped for the most part. Now that we arent winning, everyone is griping along with me.



Smoak I was there with you when this happened and yess you went off...and I tried my best to cool you down in the thread about that..but now I have to agree with you..the sad part is that they make this move to get Rocky but then don't play him...that's discouraging...

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Smoak I was there with you when this happened and yess you went off...and I tried my best to cool you down in the thread about that..but now I have to agree with you..the sad part is that they make this move to get Rocky but then don't play him...that's discouraging...
It's also incomprehensible...but I think that is GW's responsability.

[joethefan]

It's also incomprehensible...but I think that is GW's responsability.


yea i'm gonna condition myself next year that if we draft anyone on defense really high (which would be a big mistake other than trading down to get better picks) I won't look for the kid to play on D before midseason.

[smoak]

Smoak I was there with you when this happened and yess you went off...and I tried my best to cool you down in the thread about that..but now I have to agree with you..the sad part is that they make this move to get Rocky but then don't play him...that's discouraging...

Yeah, and it isn't Rocky that really upset me... It is the constant disregard for draft picks that irritates me.

[akhhorus]

It's also incomprehensible...but I think that is GW's responsability.

Rocky clearly has the athleticism to play in the NFL(his special team work has been impressive--a blocked punt isn't easy), I think he's having trouble picking up the defense. He's raw, but there is ability there. I think they should play him anyways(perhaps at MLB) to get him game experience.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Rocky clearly has the athleticism to play in the NFL(his special team work has been impressive--a blocked punt isn't easy), I think he's having trouble picking up the defense. He's raw, but there is ability there. I think they should play him anyways(perhaps at MLB) to get him game experience.
That is exactly what I think. I mean, what could happen? We lose more games? So what? We're losing anyways...

[smoak]

Rocky clearly has the athleticism to play in the NFL(his special team work has been impressive--a blocked punt isn't easy), I think he's having trouble picking up the defense. He's raw, but there is ability there. I think they should play him anyways(perhaps at MLB) to get him game experience.

Unless you let a guy come clean up the middle like we did against Carolina. :D

[silverspring]

Not really. We protected ourselves with the structure of the contracts in case they were busts. We'll be fine.

Well i just can't agree. Sure these contracts aren't going to kill us especially when you look at them on a contract by contract basis. But together it is scary. We are totally mortgaging our future and running things to close to the edge. It is just foolish, it is going to catch up with us sometime.

Tell me what if samuels knee finally goes, will we be able to afford a new LT? We are totally strapping ourselves, if something goes wrong and we actually "need" to spend money we aren't going to have it.

So you are against getting a gm? You think gibbs is doing a good and prudent job at the gm side of things? You think the pattern of his cap spending and and draft pick spending is sustainable?

[CNYSkinFan]

That is exactly what I think. I mean, what could happen? We lose more games? So what? We're losing anyways...
which is why he should be at Will. Maybe he does not know all the defenses but Lemar cancall the plays at MIke and help out McIntosh as well. Heck he comes out in nickle and dime packages anyway. PLAY MCINTOSH!!!

[joethefan]

Yeah, and it isn't Rocky that really upset me... It is the constant disregard for draft picks that irritates me.

yea I know..but I'm sure everytime you think rocky you think of this don't you...

watch

Rocky McIntosh....didn't you just get mad all over again.....:banghead:..:lol1:

[smoak]

yea I know..but I'm sure everytime you think rocky you think of this don't you...

watch

Rocky McIntosh....didn't you just get mad all over again.....:banghead:..:lol1:

LMAO! No I really do like HIM. I just didn't like selling our soul to get him. It is similar with AA, Carter, Lloyd, ARE, Fauria... I like them but felt we over paid.

[CNYSkinFan]

LMAO! No I really do like HIM. I just didn't like selling our soul to get him. It is similar with AA, Carter, Lloyd, ARE, Fauria... I like them but felt we over paid.
And Duckett?

[joethefan]

LMAO! No I really do like HIM. I just didn't like selling our soul to get him. It is similar with AA, Carter, Lloyd, ARE, Fauria... I like them but felt we over paid.


I gotchu...i just think you needed a laugh cause I could sense you you needing a WOOSAA moment.......i know you like him...I just needed to know I can still make someone laugh...LOL

[akhhorus]

Well i just can't agree. Sure these contracts aren't going to kill us especially when you look at them on a contract by contract basis. But together it is scary. We are totally mortgaging our future and running things to close to the edge. It is just foolish, it is going to catch up with us sometime.

Tell me what if samuels knee finally goes, will we be able to afford a new LT? We are totally strapping ourselves, if something goes wrong and we actually "need" to spend money we aren't going to have it.

So you are against getting a gm? You think gibbs is doing a good and prudent job at the gm side of things? You think the pattern of his cap spending and and draft pick spending is sustainable?

The only way for those contracts to choke the cap too much for us to do much is if we cut them all at the same time. Thats not happening. We can dump Arch this year and give Lloyd more time. Brunell can retire this year without much problem capwise. Other than that, we're not dumping Portis, we're not dumping Samuels, we're not dumping any player that has a big enough bonus that would making upgrading/replacing impossible.

As for Gibbs as a gm, I think two things: 1-This issue is only as issue when we're losing and that makes me discount it somewhat and 2-its still way too early. Rogers, Campbell and Rocky havent played enough yet. Rogers has been up and down, but looks like he's headed back up. If those picks pan out as solid selections, then Gibbs is a genius as a GM. He's done a good job acquiring talent(a couple exceptions however), the question is his throwing away of draft picks to make that happen. On the Free agent front, he's been pretty consistant in finding good players. Arch is a bust. Holdman is an okay player, but he never got a lot. Wynn, Daniels, Carter, Washington, Springs, Griff, Mighty Joe, Rabach, Moss, Portis were all good and solid signings. So far, the body of evidence is in his favor. Don't get me wrong, I don't like trading up constantly. But if the player acquired by trading draft picks plays well(and the pick isn't some top 10 first rounder), I have no problem with it.

[smoak]

And Duckett?

I was ok with the deal in a vacuum, but we never really used him. My guess is that he was insurance and never really beat out Betts in practice.

[CNYSkinFan]

The only way for those contracts to choke the cap too much for us to do much is if we cut them all at the same time. Thats not happening. We can dump Arch this year and give Lloyd more time. Brunell can retire this year without much problem capwise. Other than that, we're not dumping Portis, we're not dumping Samuels, we're not dumping any player that has a big enough bonus that would making upgrading/replacing impossible.

As for Gibbs as a gm, I think two things: 1-This issue is only as issue when we're losing and that makes me discount it somewhat and 2-its still way too early. Rogers, Campbell and Rocky havent played enough yet. Rogers has been up and down, but looks like he's headed back up. If those picks pan out as solid selections, then Gibbs is a genius as a GM. He's done a good job acquiring talent(a couple exceptions however), the question is his throwing away of draft picks to make that happen. On the Free agent front, he's been pretty consistant in finding good players. Arch is a bust. Holdman is an okay player, but he never got a lot. Wynn, Daniels, Carter, Washington, Springs, Griff, Mighty Joe, Rabach, Moss, Portis were all good and solid signings. So far, the body of evidence is in his favor. Don't get me wrong, I don't like trading up constantly. But if the player acquired by trading draft picks plays well(and the pick isn't some top 10 first rounder), I have no problem with it.
People have to remember that there is a provision in the new CBA that allows us to cut 1 person per year early and have it count cap wise as if after 6-1. So Arch could be cut and they bcould streetch the cap hit over two years. Brunell could retire and we could cut Lloyd as well and still be ok next year. We would have another FA class like we did in 2005 (2 moderate signings in Patten & Rabach) and just retool.

I still think the best thing would be to pay out the roster bonus for Arch, guarantee it, and keep him next year and see if we can find a way to work him inot the Will position or depth at Safety. if not then cut him next year. Brunell will probably stayt one more year as a backup with a re-tooling of his contract, and Lloyd will stay as well.

Most likely cuts are Patten & Hall with 3+ million in cap savings.

[CNYSkinFan]

I was ok with the deal in a vacuum, but we never really used him. My guess is that he was insurance and never really beat out Betts in practice.
Still 3rd rounder for a one year insurance policy is too high a price for me.

[colkurtz]

A GM puts restraints on the system and will keep coaches from making poor choices. The biggest issue is when to get rid of players at the end of their service life, which gibbs has had trouble dealing with. That's why we have such an old team.

First choice - get rid of Vinny. He's stewarded one winning season out of how many under his tenure?

The late draft picks busts don't bother me. they are all super long-shots anyway. duckett, arch and maybe lloyd cause me to wonder about the selection process and why were paid them so much.

BL- if we go 4-12 or 5-11, I think that shows we could have made better player choices this offseason. We need a change in the way we do business if this team is to fill it's problem areas.

[joethefan]

This is in hignsight but If Danny hadn't have burnt the bridge with Bobby Mitchell, should Danny have signed Bobby Mitchell to be a GM when he was here?....he may have been the only person that JOE may have trusted to be a GM...but remember Bobby got fed up with Bobby after his number was given out a couple of years ago? And is that mstreatment of not offering Bobby the job, coming back to might us?

[silverspring]

The only way for those contracts to choke the cap too much for us to do much is if we cut them all at the same time. Thats not happening. We can dump Arch this year and give Lloyd more time. Brunell can retire this year without much problem capwise. Other than that, we're not dumping Portis, we're not dumping Samuels, we're not dumping any player that has a big enough bonus that would making upgrading/replacing impossible.

As for Gibbs as a gm, I think two things: 1-This issue is only as issue when we're losing and that makes me discount it somewhat and 2-its still way too early. Rogers, Campbell and Rocky havent played enough yet. Rogers has been up and down, but looks like he's headed back up. If those picks pan out as solid selections, then Gibbs is a genius as a GM. He's done a good job acquiring talent(a couple exceptions however), the question is his throwing away of draft picks to make that happen. On the Free agent front, he's been pretty consistant in finding good players. Arch is a bust. Holdman is an okay player, but he never got a lot. Wynn, Daniels, Carter, Washington, Springs, Griff, Mighty Joe, Rabach, Moss, Portis were all good and solid signings. So far, the body of evidence is in his favor. Don't get me wrong, I don't like trading up constantly. But if the player acquired by trading draft picks plays well(and the pick isn't some top 10 first rounder), I have no problem with it.

Well i know gibbs has had some success, but anyone spending as much money as us better be having some success. How do you fail with that budget?

I just think we look like idiots putting ourselves in the situation where we are burning money. Lets go down the list of gibbs FA spending this year. Archuleta was a hugely expensive mistake and his pass coverage deficiencies were well known. So lets go ahead and let gibbs slide on that one.
Then we have lloyd. Joe Gibbs is suppose to be the ultimate character player guy. We already got ARE, we have moss and company. But gibbs goes ahead anyways and throws 2 draft picks and a huge contract at a guy who i truly like talent wise but is a known character problem. Guess what, big suprise lloyd turns out to be the immature selfish player that everyone said he was. So now like you said we are in a situation where we pretty much have to write off one of the highest paid safeties in the league, and we want to write off lloyd but can't because it is just too excessive.
So then whats next, Gibbs decides that he just doesn't have enough between his 50+ million dollar back, betts, rock and sellers so he goes out and trades a huge pick for Duckett and doesn't even bother to make sure there is an extension available before he does it. So that is 3 huge obvious mistakes in one season. Between them they cost us a 2nd rounder, a 3rd and a 4th as well as a boat load of money.

So who did we succeed with in all our big free agent acquisitions this year? ARE is as close to a success as you could find. Definitely a talented and very likeable guy. But honestly his production is weak, heck rock has been more effective in the return game, ARE just looks good. Then you look on the smaller side of things. Even for the lesser signings we blew it...fauria? Am I Wright or wrong?

So far our 2 pick rocky mccintosh can't even seem to push holdman out of the lineup. Hopefully he works out though. I am excited about golston though.

Now that is just on the acquisition side. On the other side of things it could clearly be argued that we utterly blew it as well. Letting harris go, who now is leading the nfl in interceptions, while our secondary flounders it's way through the season with 22 replacements that all stink. There is Ryan Clark, another huge mistake, etc, etc.

Oh wait, that is just player personnel. Lets look at what he has been doing on the coaching side and organization. Al Saunders really worked out well. Maybe he will, but clearly how gibbs is implementing him is all wrong. Did we really need to sign up jerry gray just to see him walk at the end of the season. Since he has been here we have hired more high end coaches than anyone in the league. Yet our players have no discipline. We have a million potential head coaches or coordinators, which is great except none of them seem to know how to teach tackling. This approach just didn't work and sure the money doesn't matter, but a lot of people here are talking about the possibility of GW or AS leaving which would mean another big step back, hopefully that doesn't happen.

Sorry gibbs is blowing it as GM.
If I gave anyone on this message board the kind of budget he is working with I can't imagine anyone doing much worse.

[ryflan47]

As long as his name is NOT Matt Millen, then I don't see how it could hurt. When Gibbs gives up the coaching, I would love to see him just focus on personell.

[akhhorus]

Well i know gibbs has had some success, but anyone spending as much money as us better be having some success. How do you fail with that budget?

We can't spend any more or do any different things than any other team. This isn't like Baseball or Soccer here where you can spend whatever you want.

I just think we look like idiots putting ourselves in the situation where we are burning money. Lets go down the list of gibbs FA spending this year. Archuleta was a hugely expensive mistake and his pass coverage deficiencies were well known. So lets go ahead and let gibbs slide on that one.
Then we have lloyd. Joe Gibbs is suppose to be the ultimate character player guy. We already got ARE, we have moss and company. But gibbs goes ahead anyways and throws 2 draft picks and a huge contract at a guy who i truly like talent wise but is a known character problem. Guess what, big suprise lloyd turns out to be the immature selfish player that everyone said he was. So now like you said we are in a situation where we pretty much have to write off one of the highest paid safeties in the league, and we want to write off lloyd but can't because it is just too excessive.
So then whats next, Gibbs decides that he just doesn't have enough between his 50+ million dollar back, betts, rock and sellers so he goes out and trades a huge pick for Duckett and doesn't even bother to make sure there is an extension available before he does it. So that is 3 huge obvious mistakes in one season. Between them they cost us a 2nd rounder, a 3rd and a 4th as well as a boat load of money.

Thats still not counting a vast majority of our moves, but fine, whatever. You just want to get upset about something. Duckett and Arch were mistakes. No doubt. The jury is still out on Lloyd.

So who did we succeed with in all our big free agent acquisitions this year? ARE is as close to a success as you could find. Definitely a talented and very likeable guy. But honestly his production is weak, heck rock has been more effective in the return game, ARE just looks good. Then you look on the smaller side of things. Even for the lesser signings we blew it...fauria? Am I Wright or wrong?

Carter has played well, and I think ARE has played well despite the turmoil in the offense. Fauria was a cheap pick up and will be cut. Wright has been hit and miss(mostly miss).

So far our 2 pick rocky mccintosh can't even seem to push holdman out of the lineup. Hopefully he works out though. I am excited about golston though.

Defensive rookies(and btw Rocky blocked a punt) have a stacked deck against them to get on the field with Williams. Holdman isn't playing well, but none of the LBs are. Why he's not playing is a matter of speculation. Saying that he "can't seem to push Holdman out of the lineup" isn't based in reality. We don't know why he isn't playing over Holdman.

Now that is just on the acquisition side. On the other side of things it could clearly be argued that we utterly blew it as well. Letting harris go, who now is leading the nfl in interceptions, while our secondary flounders it's way through the season with 22 replacements that all stink. There is Ryan Clark, another huge mistake, etc, etc.

You have no right to complain about Harris. You yourself said:
"walt harris played an inspired season last year. At the beginning of this season he was tackling well, but since then everything has gone down hill. He lost a step or something.....I think the extra time the qbs are getting is really exposing harris and our secondary." Btw, San Fran's pass defense is as bad as ours.
Ryan Clark has done little in Pittsburgh and there's no way he was the secret key to the defense.

Oh wait, that is just player personnel. Lets look at what he has been doing on the coaching side and organization. Al Saunders really worked out well. Maybe he will, but clearly how gibbs is implementing him is all wrong. Did we really need to sign up jerry gray just to see him walk at the end of the season. Since he has been here we have hired more high end coaches than anyone in the league. Yet our players have no discipline. We have a million potential head coaches or coordinators, which is great except none of them seem to know how to teach tackling. This approach just didn't work and sure the money doesn't matter, but a lot of people here are talking about the possibility of GW or AS leaving which would mean another big step back, hopefully that doesn't happen.

Sorry gibbs is blowing it as GM.
If I gave anyone on this message board the kind of budget he is working with I can't imagine anyone doing much worse.

Right, because any of us know more about football than Gibbs. :rolleyes: You point out some of the bad moves he made, but Gibbs has made more good moves than bad ones. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Gibbs the GM isn't the reason we're losing this year. Its because some key players are regressing. Arch isn't to blame for the defense sucking recently, he hasn't played in a long time. Walt Harris isn't to blame for Rogers regressing through the first half of the season and Springs' groin injury. Nothing Gibbs has done as a GM is to blame for Washington and Marshall being unable to tackle properly. If you're just looking for things to get angry about, just save your breath. This is getting ridiculous.

[shally]

clark is out with a groin... might be it for him this year.. perhaps he can consult with springs over a good groin surgeon and get it done sometime before next years preseason ??:lol1:

[shally]

As long as his name is NOT Matt Millen, then I don't see how it could hurt. When Gibbs gives up the coaching, I would love to see him just focus on personell.

he seems to be heading in that direction now..i wonder how much actually coaching decisions gibbs takes upon himself ? he is light years from the micro-managing coach he was last tenure

[silverspring]

We can't spend any more or do any different things than any other team. This isn't like Baseball or Soccer here where you can spend whatever you want.

We can't spend anymore than everyone else, but we do spend more than everyone else. The point is that we don't need to always spend money every chance we get. We need to be prudent and there has to be some restraint. We have no reserve. We need to find a balance between the free agency and the draft. From what I gather this strategy we are using is designed to win quick, and then eventually when you have to pay the price it is ok because we had our glory. But the risk is, using this strategy, not winning and then getting to that point when we have to pay the piper (having some down years to recover cap space and draft picks).


Thats still not counting a vast majority of our moves, but fine, whatever. You just want to get upset about something. Duckett and Arch were mistakes. No doubt. The jury is still out on Lloyd.

Carter has played well, and I think ARE has played well despite the turmoil in the offense. Fauria was a cheap pick up and will be cut. Wright has been hit and miss(mostly miss).

Which ones am i missing? I mean lets not sugar coat this thing. As far as I know this off season our big free agent moves were:
1)ARE - seems to have potential but no production
2)Lloyd - known character issues before purchase and now after plus lack of production
3)Carter - Major lack of production, has had a couple good games, but certainly isn't the pressure and sack producing machine we signed up for.
4)Archuleta - need i say anything
5)Duckett - 2nd rounder, possible 1st = pro bench warmer

Smaller but notable moves (i am sure i am forgetting something)
1)Fauria - Blocking TE that can't block
2)Wright - he is just wrong
3)Rumph - about as hit and miss as wright
4)Novak - stunk
5)Swiss Cheese - jury is still out
6)Todd Collins - Thanks for nothing al saunders
7)Vincent - Older than dirt, one good game and he is hurt
8)Fox - might work out, jury is still out

So imo we these guys aren't all busts, but we haven't had one of our big free agent signings produce some major impressive numbers this year or a major impact. So for a team focused on free agency that is pretty bad.


Defensive rookies(and btw Rocky blocked a punt) have a stacked deck against them to get on the field with Williams. Holdman isn't playing well, but none of the LBs are. Why he's not playing is a matter of speculation. Saying that he "can't seem to push Holdman out of the lineup" isn't based in reality. We don't know why he isn't playing over Holdman.

Look i am as perplexed at this as you probably are. Why rocky isn't at least getting some reps i can't even grasp. The logical assumption is that he is a very slow learner. I have high hopes for him, but at this point he is given us almost nothing and we paid dearly for him. But i am ok with this. I like spending draft picks. If we make a mistake at least it doesn't hurt our cap much.



You have no right to complain about Harris. You yourself said:
"walt harris played an inspired season last year. At the beginning of this season he was tackling well, but since then everything has gone down hill. He lost a step or something.....I think the extra time the qbs are getting is really exposing harris and our secondary." Btw, San Fran's pass defense is as bad as ours.
Ryan Clark has done little in Pittsburgh and there's no way he was the secret key to the defense.

I have said a lot of things that are just plain wrong, but I am not being paid 5 million a year to make these decisions. No doubt, it is really easy for me to break out the hindsight and criticize. But gibbs has had 3 years now doing this and he seems to be getting worse not better. He is joe gibbs and i am sure he will figure it out, but most likely just in time to retire.



Right, because any of us know more about football than Gibbs. :rolleyes: You point out some of the bad moves he made, but Gibbs has made more good moves than bad ones. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Gibbs the GM isn't the reason we're losing this year. Its because some key players are regressing. Arch isn't to blame for the defense sucking recently, he hasn't played in a long time. Walt Harris isn't to blame for Rogers regressing through the first half of the season and Springs' groin injury. Nothing Gibbs has done as a GM is to blame for Washington and Marshall being unable to tackle properly. If you're just looking for things to get angry about, just save your breath. This is getting ridiculous.

Gibbs is the top dog. He has the final say in player acquisition, coaching staff acquisition and he is the coach. He sure as heck is responsible. It is really a tight argument as to whether he has done more good than bad If this team's record has any weight in that argument, it is hard to say he is doing a good job. And my bubble is already burst, it happens just about every sunday. I just am trying to be realistic here. Gibbs has very little experience doing the gm side of things and it shows and we are going to feel all these mistakes for many years. I wish he would just focus on coaching, i think that is what he is great at.

[akhhorus]

We can't spend anymore than everyone else, but we do spend more than everyone else. The point is that we don't need to always spend money every chance we get. We need to be prudent and there has to be some restraint. We have no reserve. We need to find a balance between the free agency and the draft. From what I gather this strategy we are using is designed to win quick, and then eventually when you have to pay the price it is ok because we had our glory. But the risk is, using this strategy, not winning and then getting to that point when we have to pay the piper (having some down years to recover cap space and draft picks).

And if we were winning this year, this complaint wouldn't be here, much like it wasn't last year. Which is why I don't take these threads or posts like yours in this thread seriously.

Which ones am i missing? I mean lets not sugar coat this thing. As far as I know this off season our big free agent moves were:
1)ARE - seems to have potential but no production
2)Lloyd - known character issues before purchase and now after plus lack of production
3)Carter - Major lack of production, has had a couple good games, but certainly isn't the pressure and sack producing machine we signed up for.
4)Archuleta - need i say anything
5)Duckett - 2nd rounder, possible 1st = pro bench warmer

1-Is the 3rd WR in an offense which isn't throwing well. Is producing commesurate with opportunity.
2-Agreed, but is it a symptom of the offensive struggles? Its not like Moss has over 900 yards and Lloyd isn't doing anything.
3-Disagreed. he's played well this year. Sorry if he isn't on pace for 10+ sacks like you demand.
4-Agreed
5-Not a 2nd rounder. 3rd rounder or a swap of 1st. Not a first rounder. Get your facts straight.

Smaller but notable moves (i am sure i am forgetting something)
1)Fauria - Blocking TE that can't block
2)Wright - he is just wrong
3)Rumph - about as hit and miss as wright
4)Novak - stunk
5)Swiss Cheese - jury is out
6)Todd Collins - Thanks for nothing al saunders
7)Vincent - Older than dirt, one good game and he is hurt
8)Fox - might work out, jury is still out

1-Disagree
2-hit and miss
3-good against big slower WR, but struggles otherwise
4 and 5-Not Gibbs' fault Hall is hurt again
6-He wasn't brought in to play
7-and making next to nothing
8-Agree

So imo we haven't had one of free agent signings having major impressive production this year. So for a team focused on free agency that is pretty bad.

I disagree, but you just want to whine.

Look i am as perplexed at this as you probably are. Why rocky isn't at least getting some reps i can't even grasp. The logical assumption is that he is a very slow learner. I have high hopes for him, but at this point he is given us almost nothing and we paid dearly for him. But i am ok with this. I like spending draft picks. If we make a mistake at least it doesn't hurt our cap much.

:rolleyes: how about you wait till he plays before getting furious.

I have said a lot of things that are just plain wrong, but I am not being paid 5 million a year to make these decisions. No doubt, it is really easy for me to break out the hindsight and criticize. But gibbs has had 3 years now doing this and he seems to be getting worse not better. He is joe gibbs and i am sure he will figure it out, but most likely just in time to retire.

No ***CENSORED BY SPENCE*** sherlock. And to think you(or anyone) could be a GM is ridiculous. This is why I think you're just getting mad just to get mad.

Gibbs is the top dog. He has the final say in player acquisition, coaching staff acquisition and he is the coach. He sure as heck is responsible. It is really a tight argument as to whether he has done more good than bad If this team's record has any weight in that argument, it is hard to say he is doing a good job. And my bubble is already burst, it happens just about every sunday. I just am trying to be realistic here. Gibbs has very little experience doing the gm side of things and it shows and we are going to feel all these mistakes for many years. I wish he would just focus on coaching, i think that is what he is great at.

No he's not. He's not responsible, either as the coach or GM if the players who have played well recently suddenly fall apart. He's not responsible for the injuries and going down 3 players at some positions. He's not responsible-as a coach or GM-for the team's best player to suffer two bad freak injuries this season. And if you're just going to make yourself upset over everything just so you'll feel better, do us all a favor and find another way to express your thoughts.

[Meatsnack]

...

Which ones am i missing? I mean lets not sugar coat this thing. As far as I know this off season our big free agent moves were:
1)ARE - seems to have potential but no production
2)Lloyd - known character issues before purchase and now after plus lack of production
3)Carter - Major lack of production, has had a couple good games, but certainly isn't the pressure and sack producing machine we signed up for.
4)Archuleta - need i say anything
5)Duckett - 2nd rounder, possible 1st = pro bench warmer

Smaller but notable moves (i am sure i am forgetting something)
1)Fauria - Blocking TE that can't block
2)Wright - he is just wrong
3)Rumph - about as hit and miss as wright
4)Novak - stunk
5)Swiss Cheese - jury is still out
6)Todd Collins - Thanks for nothing al saunders
7)Vincent - Older than dirt, one good game and he is hurt
8)Fox - might work out, jury is still out

So imo we these guys aren't all busts, but we haven't had one of our big free agent signings produce some major impressive numbers this year or a major impact. So for a team focused on free agency that is pretty bad.
...
I think Akh was refering to his three years during Gibbs II in which he has acquired some pro-bowl caliber players in trades and in the draft (Taylor, Washington, Portis, Moss, Griffin). The facts of the matter that we can know from outside the organization seem to be limited to 1) we've regressed this year 2) the Redskins approach player acquisistion in an atypical way that is set-up for criticism if it doesn't work. In two out of three years it has largely worked (day two drafting in 04 and 05 excepted).

I agree that we could use a gifted player personnel guy in the FO as GM. I also think that we should outspend the rest of the NFL in places where the cap doesn't restrict us. For instance, I advocate buying up the best scouts we know of across the league and maintaining a scouting crew at least double the size of the next biggest team. Prying guys who can play out of Juco's and small schools, getting the real skinny on the big-money high draft picks, etc. Teams win championships by hitting on game changers. They contend year after year by drafting consistently well in all 7 rounds and UDFA and developing cheap depth. GMs run the top of the draft, scouts run the bottom. If we can master that piece, we will have that year over year performance of a team like NE or Pittsburg. They still fluctuate but the max/min of the sin-wave is much smaller.

[akhhorus]

I think Akh was refering to his three years during Gibbs II in which he has acquired some pro-bowl caliber players in trades and in the draft (Taylor, Washington, Portis, Moss, Griffin). The facts of the matter that we can know from outside the organization seem to be limited to 1) we've regressed this year 2) the Redskins approach player acquisistion in an atypical way that is set-up for criticism if it doesn't work. In two out of three years it has largely worked (day two drafting in 04 and 05 excepted).

I agree that we could use a gifted player personnel guy in the FO as GM. I also think that we should outspend the rest of the NFL in places where the cap doesn't restrict us. For instance, I advocate buying up the best scouts we know of across the league and maintaining a scouting crew at least double the size of the next biggest team. Prying guys who can play out of Juco's and small schools, getting the real skinny on the big-money high draft picks, etc. Teams win championships by hitting on game changers. They contend year after year by drafting consistently well in all 7 rounds and UDFA and developing cheap depth. GMs run the top of the draft, scouts run the bottom. If we can master that piece, we will have that year over year performance of a team like NE or Pittsburg. They still fluctuate but the max/min of the sin-wave is much smaller.

What the skins need is a Scott Pioli type guy. Doesn't have final say, but is separate from Snyder and has the huevos to stand up to Gibbs and say: "This is not a good idea. How about this guy." Gibbs has gotten talent, but he needs as you say Meatsnack, a guy who who digs on the margins and finds those steals and can act as a Devil's Advocate to Gibbs' ideas.

[silverspring]

And if we were winning this year, this complaint wouldn't be here, much like it wasn't last year. Which is why I don't take these threads or posts like yours in this thread seriously.



1-Is the 3rd WR in an offense which isn't throwing well. Is producing commesurate with opportunity.
2-Agreed, but is it a symptom of the offensive struggles? Its not like Moss has over 900 yards and Lloyd isn't doing anything.
3-Disagreed. he's played well this year. Sorry if he isn't on pace for 10+ sacks like you demand.
4-Agreed
5-Not a 2nd rounder. 3rd rounder or a swap of 1st. Not a first rounder. Get your facts straight.



1-Disagree
2-hit and miss
3-good against big slower WR, but struggles otherwise
4 and 5-Not Gibbs' fault Hall is hurt again
6-He wasn't brought in to play
7-and making next to nothing
8-Agree



I disagree, but you just want to whine.



:rolleyes: how about you wait till he plays before getting furious.



No ***CENSORED BY SPENCE*** sherlock. And to think you(or anyone) could be a GM is ridiculous. This is why I think you're just getting mad just to get mad.



No he's not. He's not responsible, either as the coach or GM if the players who have played well recently suddenly fall apart. He's not responsible for the injuries and going down 3 players at some positions. He's not responsible-as a coach or GM-for the team's best player to suffer two bad freak injuries this season. And if you're just going to make yourself upset over everything just so you'll feel better, do us all a favor and find another way to express your thoughts.

No i wouldn't be complaining if we were winning. That is the whole point isn't it akh. If we were winning, it would imply that all these moves from the player moves to the coaching changes worked. It would show that the mortgaging of our future is worth it.

Now I don't doubt that some of these guys will work out eventually. How could at least some of them not. It can't be possible that they all really stink. But other than rocky, these guys aren't draft picks. We are picking them up because we want INSTANT production. As you say a lot of this might be the fault of the entire unit sputtering, but Gibbs and the rest of the staff hand picked these guys for their systems. So why shouldn't we be getting our production now.

And respectfully, i don't know why you disagree. You pretty much concede all my points on players except a couple and they you still don't consider any of them spectacuar. You like Carter who has put a couple decent games together, but a couple games out of what 12 doesn't really impress me. You apparently think Fauria worked out, i don't really follow, what exactly has he done? And imo the novak/hall/swiss cheese thing is gibbs fault and danny smith's. Hall has been puttering and injured for 2 years now, you have to upgrade or at least bring in some real competition in training camp. You have to be proactive about this stuff. And yes you are right only a 3rd rounder for duckett because we suck. But still a 3rd is a pretty expensive 1 year bench warmer. I mean you can't tell me you approve of that move? This year our free agency was a bust. It might improve as the coaches fix the inherent problems with both the offense and defense. But as far as I know these players were brought in to be just that, solutions; to create an instant impact. But they didn't. Hopefully next year...

In terms of rocky, i am not furious, i believe my word was perplexed. Can you explain why he isn't at least in the rotation? I have no idea. He seems to have talent, and holdman doesn't so why doesn't he play? I assume the coaches are seeing something we don't. I truly hope he gets reps during these last games at least so we know what we have.

ANd I just don't know how you can say gibb's isn't responsible. Who is? You know in the past when a player was having problems on defense GW simply put someone else in and whoever that person was they seemed to somehow play great. That whole vibe is gone, i do blame a lot of it on the high turnover approach. You could tell the defense was a tight knit group before - that was working together, i don't get that sense anymore. And it isn't just losing cause they were the tightest our first season under gibbs and we lost a lot. So i would like to point a finger elsewhere but i can't imagine who.

And you can call it whining, but I am simply trying to present a realistic point of view. Take it how you want. Realistically we stink and our team and organization seems no more stable then it did 3 years ago. Yes I agree that losing exaggerates everything, I could deal with that if i felt the team/organization was moving in the right direction. But it certainly doesn't feel that way to me. I really wish i was as optimistic as you. I hope next year everything just falls into place. But I think we need a GM that will force us into a more measured forward thinking approach. I am an advocate of the draft and we really need to find a balance between it and free agency. And furthermore we need someone that has enough discipline to hold the cookie jar closed occassionally..

[WinnpegSkinsFan]

We have had a lot of busts, and most of those busts are free agents that cost us a bzillion dollars. The draft busts are negligible because at least they aren't that pricey.

But to me, it isn't so much who he has required but how. Throwing away cap money and draft picks like we do is not sustainable. THere is no restraint being exhibited by gibbs.

I completely agree. Gibbs focus on FA over the draft puts us near the salary cap every year - we don't have the flexibilty to make changes. Wemay have to keep Archuleta & Lloyd for another year or two because of the cap hit. The frustrating thing is that when Gibbs drafts in rounds 1-3 he has done quite well. We just keep trading those picks away. Personally I think Gibbs has to better balance FA vs the draft. The way I see it the number of FA busts = the number of draft busts, and draft busts after round 1 are cheaper.

[BIGSEF3]

Matt Millen is living proof that having a GM doesnt mean anything. There are alot of sucky teams that have GMs. Having a GM could improve our chances for long-term success, but Joe Gibbs has assembled a team that should, by all reasonalbe means, be HAVING "SHORT-LIVED" SUCCESS NOW.
You can't argue that (on paper) we have pretty darn close to the most talented NFL roster in the NFL. One or two additions to our defense and our roster and our team would be darn near "perfect."

The problem with the Redskins now is that Joe Gibbs assmebled a roster his first two years suited for "Joe Gibbs-style football." Then, when he assembled the roster, he realized he no longer had what it took to run a team on a daily basis. He couldnt make adapt and make decisions in-game quickly enough. You can't blame him for that. He's old and losing it. It'll happen to all of us one day. But Joe Gibbs solution was to turn over playcalling duties and give autonomy to Al Saunders - a brilliant offensive coach who's offense is quite honestly alot more different than Joe Gibbs... but we are stuck with all these players who don't fit the offense. What we really need here is for Al Saunders to completely change his style of offense and playcalling - or Joe needs to find another offensive coordinator who knows, and will call, "redskins football."

A GM could be great for the future, but it wont fix the problems we have now. Right now we need to either get a new offensive line and quarterback, or we need to say bye-bye to Saunders and get a new coordinator. Either way, Joe Gibbs is done as a "real" head coach. A GM isnt going to fix that.

[skins74]

yes

[akhhorus]

No i wouldn't be complaining if we were winning. That is the whole point isn't it akh. If we were winning, it would imply that all these moves from the player moves to the coaching changes worked. It would show that the mortgaging of our future is worth it.

So, if that's the reason you're complaining, back to my questions:
How would a real GM kept Portis from suffering two freak injuries? How would a real GM prevented Marshall and Washington from falling apart as run stopper? Until you can answer those questions, your complaining is totally pointless.

Now I don't doubt that some of these guys will work out eventually. How could at least some of them not. It can't be possible that they all really stink. But other than rocky, these guys aren't draft picks. We are picking them up because we want INSTANT production. As you say a lot of this might be the fault of the entire unit sputtering, but Gibbs and the rest of the staff hand picked these guys for their systems. So why shouldn't we be getting our production now.

This is asinine. So, they should be producing NOW or they're busts? :rolleyes: The draft is about building for the future and for today.

And respectfully, i don't know why you disagree. You pretty much concede all my points on players except a couple and they you still don't consider any of them spectacuar. You like Carter who has put a couple decent games together, but a couple games out of what 12 doesn't really impress me. You apparently think Fauria worked out, i don't really follow, what exactly has he done? And imo the novak/hall/swiss cheese thing is gibbs fault and danny smith's. Hall has been puttering and injured for 2 years now, you have to upgrade or at least bring in some real competition in training camp. You have to be proactive about this stuff. And yes you are right only a 3rd rounder for duckett because we suck. But still a 3rd is a pretty expensive 1 year bench warmer. I mean you can't tell me you approve of that move? This year our free agency was a bust. It might improve as the coaches fix the inherent problems with both the offense and defense. But as far as I know these players were brought in to be just that, solutions; to create an instant impact. But they didn't. Hopefully next year...

Because of the talent Gibbs has brought in previous to 2006. You just want to condemn him because of some bad signings(in your opinion) this year. That is really asinine.

In terms of rocky, i am not furious, i believe my word was perplexed. Can you explain why he isn't at least in the rotation? I have no idea. He seems to have talent, and holdman doesn't so why doesn't he play? I assume the coaches are seeing something we don't. I truly hope he gets reps during these last games at least so we know what we have.

I have better things to worry about than speculating on something I could possibly never find out. Rocky should be playing, why he's not is up to Williams.

ANd I just don't know how you can say gibb's isn't responsible. Who is? You know in the past when a player was having problems on defense GW simply put someone else in and whoever that person was they seemed to somehow play great. That whole vibe is gone, i do blame a lot of it on the high turnover approach. You could tell the defense was a tight knit group before - that was working together, i don't get that sense anymore. And it isn't just losing cause they were the tightest our first season under gibbs and we lost a lot. So i would like to point a finger elsewhere but i can't imagine who.

From what I've seen, the players share as much responsibility as Gibbs does. Last year, when we were struggling, Gibbs held a meeting with the players and said something that still makes sense: "I and the coaches aren't out on the field, we can only do so much. You have to make the plays". And he's still right. You can blame Gibbs for missed out talent or bad signings if you want, but at the end of the day, the players are to blame for missed tackles, INTs dropped and missed blitz pickups.

And you can call it whining, but I am simply trying to present a realistic point of view. Take it how you want. Realistically we stink and our team and organization seems no more stable then it did 3 years ago. Yes I agree that losing exaggerates everything, I could deal with that if i felt the team/organization was moving in the right direction. But it certainly doesn't feel that way to me. I really wish i was as optimistic as you. I hope next year everything just falls into place. But I think we need a GM that will force us into a more measured forward thinking approach. I am an advocate of the draft and we really need to find a balance between it and free agency. And furthermore we need someone that has enough discipline to hold the cookie jar closed occassionally..

A GM won't fix anything wrong with this team right now. And Gibbs has done well getting talent since his return. The players have to take responsibly when they make mistakes. Some of the things that have killed this 2006 redskins team is mental errors and missed opprtunties. Thats not on the coaches. Thats on the players. And its not just getting poor players, its players who have played well in the recent past and have suddenly fallen apart. Thats not on Gibbs the GM.

[LATrueRedskin]

I voted yes. Give Gibbs back the offense and let him get back to what got him here in the first place. Let another guy (with Gibbs' input of needs), handle the FAs and have him and Gibbs get together on the draft. I'm very happy with Gibbs' draft choices...when we have them.

[silverspring]

So, if that's the reason you're complaining, back to my questions:
How would a real GM kept Portis from suffering two freak injuries? How would a real GM prevented Marshall and Washington from falling apart as run stopper? Until you can answer those questions, your complaining is totally pointless.

Yes that is why I am complaining. I will repeat myself. If we were winning it would indicate to me that we were gaining an impact from our free agency splurging. If being 4-8 isn't worth complaining about after another spending spree, then i am out of line. :rolleyes:

So what you are saying is that portis being injured is the reason why our offense stunk? If i recall even when portis was playing we didn't look so hot most of the time. I believe we are discussing if gibbs is doing a good job as a gm. If you want to discuss this we could ponder why when portis did get hurt gibbs the coach decided he didn't even want to use the 3rd pick bench warmer that gibbs the gm bought.

And give me a break. And marshall and washington, aren't gibbs the 'gm's fault but squeezing production out of your players is the responsibility of the coaches.


This is asinine. So, they should be producing NOW or they're busts? :rolleyes: The draft is about building for the future and for today.

I never used the word bust. Let me explain again. If for instance a football team signs up a flashy 20 million dollar WR from the free agent market i think the point is to get an immediate impact for your team. Now if you sign up say 2 of those, a DE, one of the highest paid safeties in the league, a big time running back, etc and then you get no major impact it means you are doing something very wrong. I point out that I think they could produce in the future and I hope they do. But this kind of spending is performed to produce an immediate impact imo. The fact that we got no major impact from a single one of those moves shows that there is a serious issue.



Because of the talent Gibbs has brought in previous to 2006. You just want to condemn him because of some bad signings(in your opinion) this year. That is really asinine.

I believe the argument here I was making was that gibbs has easily made as many bad choices as good. Mistakes are expected, but we have made quite a few. ANd i think mistakes are more acceptable when you are working with the draft because those players are unproven in the nfl. But the whole point of the free agent market is that you know what you are getting. You aren't suppose to make mistakes in the free agent market. So i think the fact that we have had so many big time free agent busts is a huge deal.

From what I've seen, the players share as much responsibility as Gibbs does. Last year, when we were struggling, Gibbs held a meeting with the players and said something that still makes sense: "I and the coaches aren't out on the field, we can only do so much. You have to make the plays". And he's still right. You can blame Gibbs for missed out talent or bad signings if you want, but at the end of the day, the players are to blame for missed tackles, INTs dropped and missed blitz pickups.



A GM won't fix anything wrong with this team right now. And Gibbs has done well getting talent since his return. The players have to take responsibly when they make mistakes. Some of the things that have killed this 2006 redskins team is mental errors and missed opprtunties. Thats not on the coaches. Thats on the players. And its not just getting poor players, its players who have played well in the recent past and have suddenly fallen apart. Thats not on Gibbs the GM.

Well it could easily be argued that gibbs is the one picking the players so then if it is on them he must be picking bad players.

Look I don't agree and I really don't think you are making any kind of an argument. If you think gibbs is doing a good job as GM then you are entitled to your opinion, but cmon back it up with some real reasoning. What has he done so well? What exactly is your point of view? What do you think is best for the future of this team? You think things should stay status quo and everything will fall into place?

I will repeat mine: I think we need a gm, that shows restraint and helps this team find a balance between the draft and free agency. And also to help us cut back on turnover. Furthermore I think gibbs' skill is in coaching and that is what he should be focusing on.

[skins74]

You don't build and maintain a winning team by throwing away draft picks. We need a GM, we have needed one ever since Casserly was fired, even Danny admitted he fired the wrong guy when he fired Casserly and kept Norv. Yet we still have no GM. Coked up Vinny is a failure and Gibbs needs more help in that department.

[akhhorus]

Yes that is why I am complaining. I will repeat myself. If we were winning it would indicate to me that we were gaining an impact from our free agency splurging. If being 4-8 isn't worth complaining about after another spending spree, then i am out of line. :rolleyes:

If its the reason we're 4-8, you're right. But its not.

So what you are saying is that portis being injured is the reason why our offense stunk? If i recall even when portis was playing we didn't look so hot most of the time. I believe we are discussing if gibbs is doing a good job as a gm. If you want to discuss this we could ponder why when portis did get hurt gibbs the coach decided he didn't even want to use the 3rd pick bench warmer that gibbs the gm bought.

Thank for trying to avoid the question.

And give me a break. And marshall and washington, aren't gibbs the 'gm's fault but squeezing production out of your players is the responsibility of the coaches.

How about the players? Is anything the players' fault? Anything at all? It is stunning that so many people here think that it is all on the coaches and the players have no responsibility for their failures. Thats just stunning. Its as lame as Brunell being the proverbial right hand of satan.

I never used the word bust. Let me explain again. If for instance a football team signs up a flashy 20 million dollar WR from the free agent market i think the point is to get an immediate impact for your team. Now if you sign up say 2 of those, a DE, one of the highest paid safeties in the league, a big time running back, etc and then you get no major impact it means you are doing something very wrong. I point out that I think they could produce in the future and I hope they do. But this kind of spending is performed to produce an immediate impact imo. The fact that we got no major impact from a single one of those moves shows that there is a serious issue.

How about all the other players Gibbs' has gotten who have produced. You're still just using 2006 as the final evidence for Gibbs as the GM. That is asinine, which is becomes patternistic behavior with you.

I believe the argument here I was making was that gibbs has easily made as many bad choices as good. Mistakes are expected, but we have made quite a few. ANd i think mistakes are more acceptable when you are working with the draft because those players are unproven in the nfl. But the whole point of the free agent market is that you know what you are getting. You aren't suppose to make mistakes in the free agent market. So i think the fact that we have had so many big time free agent busts is a huge deal.

:rolleyes: Sorry Gibbs isn't a perfect human being. Man, are you getting ridiculous.

Well it could easily be argued that gibbs is the one picking the players so then if it is on them he must be picking bad players.

And that is a valid point if the players are useless from Day One. You cannot make a case that this is true of Gibbs the GM.

Look I don't agree and I really don't think you are making any kind of an argument. If you think gibbs is doing a good job as GM then you are entitled to your opinion, but cmon back it up with some real reasoning. What has he done so well? What exactly is your point of view? What do you think is best for the future of this team? You think things should stay status quo and everything will fall into place?

LOL. And what are you doing here? What argument are you putting out here except that if Gibbs screwed up in 2006, he has to be a miserable failure. That is just ridiculous. I have backed up my points with what I think Gibbs has done well as a GM. I know you have this mental blind spot and are unable to see that at all.

I will repeat mine: I think we need a gm, that shows restraint and helps this team find a balance between the draft and free agency. And also to help us cut back on turnover. Furthermore I think gibbs' skill is in coaching and that is what he should be focusing on.

And how exactly does this fix the problems we've had this season? Archuleta, Fauria, Duckett and Lloyd aren't to blame for the defensive players who have done well up until this year totally regressing. No one we signed is to blame for the injuries(unless they are assaulting the players off the field). Gibbs the GM and Gibbs the coach aren't to blame for those either. Oh wait, thats a fact. I know how you don't like those.

[Red Bear]

arch and lloyd arent so easy to cut like some of you are shouting for. id give lloyd more time, its very possible we take the cap hit for cutting arch this year. but both are due bonuses that if we dont pay then their base salaries for the next 3 years become gauranteed and cutting them would be about a 9 million dollar cap hit i read, whether its spread over two years or not. their bonuses are due in march i believe, and im willing to bet carters and randle els contracts are the same

[akhhorus]

arch and lloyd arent so easy to cut like some of you are shouting for. id give lloyd more time, its very possible we take the cap hit for cutting arch this year. but both are due bonuses that if we dont pay then their base salaries for the next 3 years become gauranteed and cutting them would be about a 9 million dollar cap hit i read, whether its spread over two years or not. their bonuses are due in march i believe, and im willing to bet carters and randle els contracts are the same

No, thats wrong. No one got a 10 million dollar signing bonus. They got 5 million dollar signing bonuses and 5 million in roster bonuses spread out over the contract. Neither would cost 9 million to cut. And none of their base salaries become guaranteed over the next 3 years. The base salaries for that year are guaranteed if the player is on the roster when the season starts.

[Red Bear]

No, thats wrong. No one got a 10 million dollar signing bonus. They got 5 million dollar signing bonuses and 5 million in roster bonuses spread out over the contract. Neither would cost 9 million to cut. And none of their base salaries become guaranteed over the next 3 years. The base salaries for that year are guaranteed if the player is on the roster when the season starts.

go read jason lacanforas WP blog. and i believe theyre option bonuses. and this is for if we cut them this offseason

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2006/12/because_you_asked_for_it.html Lloyds contract

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2006/11/post_3.html archuletas contract

[bgforever]

go read jason lacanforas WP blog. and i believe theyre option bonuses. and this is for if we cut them this offseason

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2006/12/because_you_asked_for_it.html

That's why I want AA to try out as a WLB or SLB next season, after bulking up to about 15-20 LBS. His mind is there, its his speed at Safety that' his handicap, but as a LB, he'd be fabulous.

[Red Bear]

That's why I want AA to try out as a WLB or SLB next season, after bulking up to about 15-20 LBS. His mind is there, its his speed at Safety that' his handicap, but as a LB, he'd be fabulous.

it would never work, archuleta cant cover RBs and TEs as a safety, he surely wont be able to do it as a LB

[santanadasavior]

I think Tony K said it perfectly on PTI the other day, he said if Joe is going to be the coach, do it yourself. Let the other offensive guys go and do it yourself. You are a great coach and you need to do it. If the other guys are going to do it, he should be the GM. I don't think I fit in a category for the poll.

[bgforever]

it would never work, archuleta cant cover RBs and TEs as a safety, he surely wont be able to do it as a LB

:doh: thanks for reminding me.

[akhhorus]

go read jason lacanforas WP blog. and i believe theyre option bonuses. and this is for if we cut them this offseason

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2006/12/because_you_asked_for_it.html Lloyds contract

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2006/11/post_3.html archuletas contract

They're a problem with that about Arch's contract. The total was 30 million for the deal. He got 5 million in a signing bonus. He's owed 24 million in base salary(roughly and from the NFLPA). He can't be owed a 5 million dollar roster bonus(which he'll never see). Even that is true, he'll be cut before then and the skins will pay basically a small amount over the next 3 years. But, JLC's been wrong about contract stuff before. He said it would be impossible to dump lavar since they skins couldn't get around any of the SB money he got. He was wrong about that.

[Red Bear]

They're a problem with that about Arch's contract. The total was 30 million for the deal. He got 5 million in a signing bonus. He's owed 24 million in base salary(roughly and from the NFLPA). He can't be owed a 5 million dollar roster bonus(which he'll never see). Even that is true, he'll be cut before then and the skins will pay basically a small amount over the next 3 years. But, JLC's been wrong about contract stuff before. He said it would be impossible to dump lavar since they skins couldn't get around any of the SB money he got. He was wrong about that.

yeah but no one ever expected or mentioned that lavar might buy out his contract before it happened. is it possible enough that arch is so unhappy here he would give money back to buy out his contract?

[akhhorus]

yeah but no one ever expected or mentioned that lavar might buy out his contract before it happened. is it possible enough that arch is so unhappy here he would give money back to buy out his contract?

Absolutely. If he does have language that guarantees that money, he might. But if he doesn't agree, the skins will cut him. It would add 500k to 07's cap figure, 1 million to 08 and 3.4 to 09. Keep in mind they would get 4ish million back from the dead SB from Arch after 07, so that money is nothing.

[bgforever]

it would never work, archuleta cant cover RBs and TEs as a safety, he surely wont be able to do it as a LB

I want to correct that last comment. Who was the fastest among these players.

Marshall, MW, McIntosh, Holdman, Campbell (LB), compared to PP, Taylor, Vincent, AA, Fox?

I believe the Safeties are faster, but apparently AA is the slowest. However, he sees it correctly (play), but his BODY doesn't get him there. That is because THE POSITION he is in as well. I am saying Put Him in a LB position and closer to the line, then he's NOT required to have the same speed. His reads are great, and he CAN make that play from the CLOSER proximity to the line.

People thought that the Taylor sized Marhall (who had to bulk up to play WLB) was a good move, and it was! I think we can do the same with AA and salvage some good years from him.

HAVE TO EDIT: AA is likely, unfortunately to be only a BACKUP LB, because we have McIntosh, MW and Marshall, and if we bring in a MLB, Marshall is sure fire to be back WLB, forcing McIntosh back into backing him up. So after reviewing yet a third time on my position, AA is either still in or a cap casualty.

[santanadasavior]

I think Tony K said it perfectly on PTI the other day, he said if Joe is going to be the coach, do it yourself. Let the other offensive guys go and do it yourself. You are a great coach and you need to do it. If the other guys are going to do it, he should be the GM. I don't think I fit in a category for the poll.

[smoak]

Still 3rd rounder for a one year insurance policy is too high a price for me.

Not for me if it meant the season could have gone down the toilet... Of course who knew it was headed that way WITH Portis. :rolleyes:

[smoak]

It's also incomprehensible...but I think that is GW's responsability.

???

The GM wouldn't tell the coach who to play?

[santanadasavior]

???

The GM wouldn't tell the coach who to play?

There could be some influence though.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Not for me if it meant the season could have gone down the toilet... Of course who knew it was headed that way WITH Portis. :rolleyes:
The problem I had with the deal at the time was it totally ignored Rock C. He has played as a feature back before. He's got to be in the discussion as one of the best 3rd string back in the league and would make a good back-up somewhere. With Betts and Rock plus giving Mike S. some carries we didn't need another guy.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

There could be some influence though.
Depends on the situation. Who's the GM and who's the coach? If one has more power and success and has less chance of being fired, then that's the one who is going to have some authority. For example, Isiah Thomas was trying to tell Larry Brown who to play, and Brown said I'm a HOF coach, you don't tell me who to play. But if Ron Wolf were GM and Brad Childress were coach, I could see the owner allowing Ron Wolf some input on who plays.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

I think Tony K said it perfectly on PTI the other day, he said if Joe is going to be the coach, do it yourself. Let the other offensive guys go and do it yourself. You are a great coach and you need to do it. If the other guys are going to do it, he should be the GM. I don't think I fit in a category for the poll.
I think this still ignores the fact that maybe Gibbs cannot physically run the offense anymore. Why can't he be a CEO coach? That's basically what Parcells has done his whole career.

You know what's funny about the HC calling the offense or the defense, I remember the Norv years when the argument from everyone in the media was the HC can't possibly call the offense and be the HC. You have to either be the OC or the HC. You can't be both. Now that Gibbs is choosing to be the HC and not the OC, that's not good either. So I guess if you win, then whatever it is you're doing then is the right thing to do, and if you lose, then you're doing it wrong.

[silverspring]

If its the reason we're 4-8, you're right. But its not.

Obivously it is a combination of things, but to me it is mostly issues with the coaching. Without a doubt we have tons and tons of talent. If they aren't producing it is on the coaching imo.
So tell me what is the reason in your opinion?


Thank for trying to avoid the question.

Do you not read what I post?
What question? Whether i think they are busts or not because they aren't producing now? No, I don't think that necessarily makes them busts, maybe they are busts in our system, maybe the system is a bust. But I can't imagine how we can pick up that many high priced free agents in one offseason and not feel a significant impact from a single one of them. Do you not agree?



How about the players? Is anything the players' fault? Anything at all? It is stunning that so many people here think that it is all on the coaches and the players have no responsibility for their failures. Thats just stunning. Its as lame as Brunell being the proverbial right hand of satan.

Wow that is the first time i ever heard about this whole brunell satan analogy. Sure the players could be doing some things better. But to me they are just tools that the coaches need to make work. The coaches are paid to squeeze every ounce of production out of the talent they are working with. These coaches have a tremendous amount of talent to work with yet all of them seem to be underproducing individually and as a whole. So I put a majority of the blame on the coaches.

From your posts i gather your opinion is that the players are the major piece of the pie at fault. Is that what you think?


How about all the other players Gibbs' has gotten who have produced. You're still just using 2006 as the final evidence for Gibbs as the GM. That is asinine, which is becomes patternistic behavior with you.

I was looking at this from this year. As I have said over and over now Gibbs has made some great pickups in the last 3 years, but I feel that he has had far more bad pickups that good ones. And again it is one thing when you are working with the draft, but when you are handing out 30 million dollar contracts to established free agents you expect great results immediately.


:rolleyes: Sorry Gibbs isn't a perfect human being. Man, are you getting ridiculous.

I have no idea what this means, i am bringing some valid points to the table if you disagree explain yourself. As i said i expect some mistakes, but not one of our big pickups this year has had a significant impact and we had a lot of big pickups. Can you really argue that?


And that is a valid point if the players are useless from Day One. You cannot make a case that this is true of Gibbs the GM.

I don't understand.

LOL. And what are you doing here? What argument are you putting out here except that if Gibbs screwed up in 2006, he has to be a miserable failure. That is just ridiculous. I have backed up my points with what I think Gibbs has done well as a GM. I know you have this mental blind spot and are unable to see that at all.

No I am arguing that gibbs' approach of Free Agency first and zero restraint on spending is not a sustainable way to run or build a football team especially if you want consistent long term success. From the day gibbs has got here he has done this. We need a balance between free agency and the draft. You would think that as time goes one he would have gotten more restrained in spending and more conservative with our draft picks, but the trend seems to be less. My argument is that gibbs is not a good gm. He never had experience being a gm, much less a background in it when free agency was like it is now, yet this is his focus now. I think he is a great coach and yet he chooses to focus on the thing he isn't great at. I think the strategy he is employing is to win now, the quick fix, but it mortgages our future. If this strategy worked and we did win now, i could live with it. But it is completely backfiring and possible setting us up for serious problems down the line if we don't stop and get this in hand immediately. So yes I think we need a gm.

And how exactly does this fix the problems we've had this season? Archuleta, Fauria, Duckett and Lloyd aren't to blame for the defensive players who have done well up until this year totally regressing. No one we signed is to blame for the injuries(unless they are assaulting the players off the field). Gibbs the GM and Gibbs the coach aren't to blame for those either. Oh wait, thats a fact. I know how you don't like those.

Sure injuries is a problem that can't be helped. On offense though portis has been the only major injury. And even when he was playing the offense was a mess. When a single player regresses i would put it on the player, but when the entire defense regresses i have to put it on coaching. I do think coaching is the biggest problem. But honestly teams win in a lot of ways. You might laugh at this, but one of the ways they become winners is by character and spirit and togetherness. I believe the constant turnover, even when it brings in more talent, that this team is going through rips that vibe out of them. I think they aren't on the same page and don't feel that team vibe that you need to motivate you to go out there and fight.

Anyways I have been very clear with my beliefs on this. Arguable...no factually you know probably about 10 times more than me about football. You bring a lot of knowledge to the table, yet you refuse to share your opinion. So again, seriously, instead of just debating my points I would really be interested in your opinions. You obviously don't think we need a GM. What do you think we need? Do you think gibbs is managing this team right? Do you think we need changes in how personnel is gathered? Are you ok with the free agency focus? Do you honestly think the current strategy is sustainable? Please share.

[Meatsnack]

Does anyone on this board know anything about these two young FO guys as potential GM candidates?

Eris DeCosta, Director of College Scouting for the Jailbirds

Bobby Depaul - Bears Director of Pro Personnel, played under Petitbon in DC.

The Ravens, like the Patriots and Steelers, seem to leak and replenish talent regularly. The Bears seem to have assembled a good, young contender.

Thoughts? Preferences? Other suggestions?

[Meatsnack]

There could be some influence though.
It would be highly irregular. The standard FO organization, and the one we had in Gibbs I, etc. is:

The GM brings in players

The coach decides who stays and who plays.

For a coach to give up the ability to sit or cut players means that he has no authority to do his job. I don't know of any coach who would go along with that, no matter what his name recognition is or isn't.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

???

The GM wouldn't tell the coach who to play?
? I don't get the question smoak...I wasn't saying that Rocky was a bad choice..I'm saying he should be playing now and isn't..that's GW's decision.

[Spence]

of course they need a real GM.

[smoak]

There could be some influence though.

Maybe, but that is a slippery slope... IMO, if a GM is telling a coach who to play then you've got worse issues than we do now. Sure a suggestion here and there is always welcomed, but... That is Pandoras Box.

? I don't get the question smoak...I wasn't saying that Rocky was a bad choice..I'm saying he should be playing now and isn't..that's GW's decision.

LMAO! I thought you said "that is the GM's repsonsibility". :D

[dogfight6]

Yes, and alot less asst. head coaches.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

LMAO! I thought you said "that is the GM's repsonsibility". :D
Actually it's Brunell's responsability..lol...

[ChiefPowhatan17]

We need to get Vinny Cerrato out of here.

[Mizzin44]

Joe Gibbs made the Hall of Fame as a coach, not as a GM. Dump Vinnie, get a real GM!

[joethefan]

Joe Gibbs made the Hall of Fame as a coach, not as a GM. Dump Vinnie, get a real GM!


Ding ding ding...

[shally]

Ding ding ding...

gibbs is going to have to sign off on it.. i know he has said he is open to the idea.. but the devil is in the details as we all know

[bigcmr]

This is in hignsight but If Danny hadn't have burnt the bridge with Bobby Mitchell, should Danny have signed Bobby Mitchell to be a GM when he was here?....he may have been the only person that JOE may have trusted to be a GM...but remember Bobby got fed up with Bobby after his number was given out a couple of years ago? And is that mstreatment of not offering Bobby the job, coming back to might us?


Lets face it we need a GM for the long term. And I would love to see Bobby Mitchell get the job. I think Bobby Mithchell would work great with Gibbs. He knows football. Hes been around for a long time.

[shally]

Lets face it we need a GM for the long term. And I would love to see Bobby Mitchell get the job. I think Bobby Mithchell would work great with Gibbs. He knows football. Hes been around for a long time.

mitchell is old.. we need someone who can better relate to personnel and who has a higher level of energy

[redwolf1218]

We need to get Vinny Cerrato out of here.
everyone in the organization seems to like Vinny for whatever reason. he's just the director of scouting, with some other title, certainly not GM. he does have a lot of years of experience in scouting.