How does Gibbs "fix" the 'Skins?[Merged]

[Skinz4lyfe]

I wanna get your take on what you propose on improving our team for next year. Should we upgrade via free agency and if so who should we target? Should we fire some members on our coaching staff?

First we must re-sign Dock. Our line did an excellent job the second half of the season and was the catalist of the improved offensive performance. Keeping these guys together is priority 1.

Second, I feel we need to ax our secondary and LBs coaches. After that we should put GW on the warm seat because I'm tired of the "scheme" and his inability to change. Gibbs toned down the offense in the 2nd half of the season and we saw an improvement. GW should have done the same. And that came w/a QB making his first starts in the NFL and w/o Portis, arguably our #1 threat on offense.

Bottom line is we definitely need to upgrade our defense. We simply do not have the talent (or depth) to complete. However, IMO this is gonna be a weak free agent period, due to the salary cap increasing so much. We must upgrade at CB but I do not think Nate Clemons will be a free agent next year because of the enormous cap room Buffalo has there. Therefore we need to find another CB to target. Too bad we can't use the draft to upgrade unless we trade our 1st rd pick and get multiple picks. We definitely need to pick up a good MLB, get more depth at OLB. I'm not sure who is pending free agency but it looks like that will be our best bet at upgrading our team considering the lack of draft picks we have.

At least our special teams improved this year. I propose keeping Suisham and Frost another year but Hall should probably go. He's one of the higher paid kickers in the NFL and we could use all the cap space we can get.

I'll end w/saying that I think we need to make things work w/Archuleta and Lloyd. Those are two guys who are considered "FA busts" this year. Because of the contracts we gave them, we have to find a way to make these guys productive. We have the highest coaching staff in the league so its time for them to earn their money. Make it work!!

[bfauble83]

How about teaching defensive players how to tackle?

[44FAN]

Axe Al Saunders, we just need to getting back to Redskins football. Run Portis and Betts. Spread the field and use Cooley and Moss. I don't think the offense is that far off from being good. The defense is a whole different matter. Our secondary is in shambles. We need to draft And upgrade thru Free Agency. We need more depth on the Dline too. The LB corp was suspect too. We need drafts picks more than anything. I'd almost be willing to trade our #1 for multiple picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

[StogieHog]

It is all about the defense.

Do you remember a last year when our defense was holding their opponents to under 20 points a game but our offense could not score over 17 points a game and we were losing.

Now we are scoring nearly 30 points a game and still losing!!!!!!!!

[HAWGZHEAD]

Axe Al Saunders, we just need to getting back to Redskins football. Run Portis and Betts. Spread the field and use Cooley and Moss. Saunders is fine. What you have said here is basically what we have been doing since Campbell has been brought in. Betts is over a thousand and I don't know for sure but am willing to bet that Moss and Cooley are our #1 and #2 contributors in the passing game. As far as the D is concerned I only hold ties to about 4 players the rest I could do with or without.

[LATrueRedskin]

Axe Al Saunders, we just need to getting back to Redskins football. Run Portis and Betts. Spread the field and use Cooley and Moss. I don't think the offense is that far off from being good. The defense is a whole different matter. Our secondary is in shambles. We need to draft And upgrade thru Free Agency. We need more depth on the Dline too. The LB corp was suspect too. We need drafts picks more than anything. I'd almost be willing to trade our #1 for multiple picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

So why axe Al Saunders? Aren't we running the ball with Betts? We've had the 4th rated offense the past 4 or 5 weeks. If there's anything we don't need to change, it's Al Saunders. We expected some kinks in the offense early on, but Coach Saunders has since ironed those kinks out. I'm excited to see this exact same offense this season.

[44FAN]

So why axe Al Saunders? Aren't we running the ball with Betts? We've had the 4th rated offense the past 4 or 5 weeks. If there's anything we don't need to change, it's Al Saunders.
Because we started getting good when we went back to playing our style of football. The kind of football Joe Gibbs runs. I think we have WAY too many coaches. Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians.

[akhhorus]

Because we started getting good when we went back to playing our style of football. The kind of football Joe Gibbs runs. I think we have WAY too many coaches. Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians.

huh? So, to dump our excess of coaches, you want to dump the coach who is getting his unit to work? That doesn't make any sense.

[44FAN]

huh? So, to dump our excess of coaches, you want to dump the coach who is getting his unit to work? That doesn't make any sense.
What I'm saying is his unit started to work under Gibbs system. Joe can still coach and call plays. Why have two coaches calling the same game?

[akhhorus]

What I'm saying is his unit started to work under Gibbs system. Joe can still coach and call plays. Why have two coaches calling the same game?

You're still not making any sense. Gibbs didn't change the offense or started to call the plays. Saunders simplified his offense for Campbell and it hummed. They didn't go back to the Gibbs' system.

[Dolla Bill]

I really get the eerie feeling that we have now become the Kansas City Chiefs from the past 5-6 years. We're either there, or getting there. Great offense, but really horrible defense. When Edwards took over the Chiefs, he tweaked the offense to become a more clock eating offense to keep the defense off the field. It did work a little. I believe the Chiefs have imporoved a little of defense, but this year's defense was atrocious. I have never been more embarrassed about this team in any capacity, than I was about the defense. It was just dreadful.

[akhhorus]

I really get the eerie feeling that we have now become the Kansas City Chiefs from the past 5-6 years. We're either there, or getting there. Great offense, but really horrible defense. When Edwards took over the Chiefs, he tweaked the offense to become a more clock eating offense to keep the defense off the field. It did work a little. I believe the Chiefs have imporoved a little of defense, but this year's defense was atrocious. I have never been more embarrassed about this team in any capacity, than I was about the defense. It was just dreadful.

Maybe Saunders is the Black hole for defenses lol

[Dolla Bill]

Maybe Saunders is the Black hole for defenses lol


Kinda ironic eh? I guess we have to take the good with the bad.

[Skins57]

Maybe Saunders is the Black hole for defenses lol

Maybe he has the best practice offense in the world and the defense losses all self esteem by the end of camp......hmmmmm and then he tones it down to help the defense at practice but then the offense never recovers until the end of the season but by then the defense is completely destroyed...lol

[GolfFreak]

My thoughts:

- consolidate some of the coaches titles, seems like we have too many cooks in the kitchen.
- sign a corner in free-agency, move Springs to Saftey
- draft a stud for the d-line, either Adams (DE Clemson) or Branch (DT Michigan)
- resign Dockery and start working on Cooley's extension (sooner than later)
- do not give up on Lloyd or AA just yet, with Springs and Taylor at saftey play AA as the nickle DB or as a blitzing LB.

[Dept_of_Defense]

-Resign Dockery
-Cut, trade, do something with Archuleta, Lloyd
-Fire Dale Lindsey, Stephen Jackson
-Sign/Draft MLB, CB, DE


Our offense is going to be fine next year. With our beloved Redskins it's always been one thing or another every year as of recent. For the 1st 2 years it was the offense that wasn't playing up to the defense's expectations. Now we're putting points on the board and our defense is not able to stop anybody. We MUST be more consistent. The players just aren't getting it done. This is the NFL. Players should know how to get off blocks and tackle.

[LATrueRedskin]

Because we started getting good when we went back to playing our style of football. The kind of football Joe Gibbs runs. I think we have WAY too many coaches. Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians.

That still doesn't make any sense. Al Saunders is running our style of football now, so you want to get rid of him? All that would do is create another lag so the team (and Jason Campbell) will have to re-learn the old offense.

[JasonCampbell]

Why exactly is there so much hate for B.Lloyd? I mean, the production wasn't there, but the first 9 games of the season we had Brunell, who only threw to Moss and Cooley and then the second half of the season it would appear that he was in Gibbs doghouse.

He's a young WR with loads of talent. I'd give him another year or two before I'd consider cutting him (can't say the same of Arch though).

The only move we should make on offense is resign Dock and try to get a bit of OL depth. Cut Brunell unless he restructures (I'd like to see him come back).

On defense, we need a starting caliber DT, MLB, and CB. I'd like to see us sign Clements (only major FA acquisition) and trade down our top 5 pick to pick up a pair of first rounders and use those picks on a DT and a MLB (PATRICK WILLIS or PAUL POSLUSZNY come to mind).

If Springs moves to safety, we don't need another one of those with solid depth with Fox, Vincent, and Priouleu coming back. Clements and Rogers is solid with Kenny Wright playing where he should, nickelback.

[PennSkinsFan]

1. Fire Dale Lindsey

2. Fire either Grey or Jackson

3. Draft in the first round a pass rushing DE

4. Free agent CB

5. Cheap, but solid MLB

6. Brand new CB depth

[PennSkinsFan]

-Resign Dockery
-Cut, trade, do something with Archuleta, Lloyd
-Fire Dale Lindsey, Stephen Jackson
-Sign/Draft MLB, CB, DE


Our offense is going to be fine next year. With our beloved Redskins it's always been one thing or another every year as of recent. For the 1st 2 years it was the offense that wasn't playing up to the defense's expectations. Now we're putting points on the board and our defense is not able to stop anybody. We MUST be more consistent. The players just aren't getting it done. This is the NFL. Players should know how to get off blocks and tackle.

Not sure cap wise you can get rid of both lloyd and Archuleta. Arch is gone. His calling the FO liars sealed his fate. Lloyd will return.

[NCskinsfanatic]

1. Fire Dale Lindsey

2. Fire either Grey or Jackson

3. Draft in the first round a pass rushing DE

4. Free agent CB

5. Cheap, but solid MLB

6. Brand new CB depth

hey this works for me...

[CNYSkinFan]

There is not a defensive coaching position...including Gregg Williams...that you can't make a case for firing. Every aspect of the defense played poorly this year. If you are not going to fire Gregg Williams then you have to look at some of the assistants. Top two for me are Dale Lindsey whose LB unit has gotten worse each year and Steve Jackson whose safeties have gotten worse each year. Gray had to deal with big time injuries to his corners this year, but a case could be made for him as well.

Blache's dline showed improvement at the end of the year so I will give him a pass.

As for the player side the redskins need to end the Holdman epxperiment. He is not a good LBer anymore, if he ever was one. Also Marshall probably needs to move back to the bench. Rogers may need to move to nickle and Springs to safety. Daniels is done and needs to be replaced. That means we need 2 corners (or 1 corner and 1 safety), a middle linebacker, and a defensive end. For sure we have some players on our defense already who will help out (Mcintosh taking over for Holdman, maybe Evans helping a DE, Prioleau coming back at Safety) but we need an enfusion of good youthful players

[FanFromArizona]

Why exactly is there so much hate for B.Lloyd? I mean, the production wasn't there, but the first 9 games of the season we had Brunell, who only threw to Moss and Cooley and then the second half of the season it would appear that he was in Gibbs doghouse.

He's a young WR with loads of talent. I'd give him another year or two before I'd consider cutting him (can't say the same of Arch though).

I agree, we need to give Lloyd a chance. 1 year is not enough time. On the other hand, we need to release Patten. He just hasn't been what we needed. I would rather give the opportunity/chance to Espy. I am hoping that is what we do with the WR core.


The only move we should make on offense is resign Dock and try to get a bit of OL depth. Cut Brunell unless he restructures (I'd like to see him come back).

The only other possibility I can see on offense is possibly a blocking TE. I don't know how Fauria is going to rate with the coaches, but I do have to say I like how we have used Pucillo nicely as a blocking TE. I can see a late FA acquisition at a cap-friendly price to get us a nice (and YOUNG) blocking TE. Perhaps even a slobbernocker with our second day draft pick.


On defense, we need a starting caliber DT, MLB, and CB. I'd like to see us sign Clements (only major FA acquisition) and trade down our top 5 pick to pick up a pair of first rounders and use those picks on a DT and a MLB (PATRICK WILLIS or PAUL POSLUSZNY come to mind).

If Springs moves to safety, we don't need another one of those with solid depth with Fox, Vincent, and Priouleu coming back. Clements and Rogers is solid with Kenny Wright playing where he should, nickelback.

People, Springs is not going to move to safety for us next year. The money will not be there for Springs. And at a cap hit of 7.7 Mil combined with Springs' injury history, Springs I think will be asked to restructure.

Regarding Clements, I don't see how we are going to be able to compete money-wise. Too many teams with cap space and money that will compete with us for him. I actually think we will be looking at Asante Samuels if he hits the market.

With our pick, I would like to see us trade down to pick up a DE and MLB. Shift Lemar Marshall back to WLB, split time with Rocky. Give me a beast at DE to match up with Carter with our upper first round pick, and a MLB in lower first round pick.

I think they will let Holdman and Wright walk.

At safety we will go with tandem of Taylor, PP, Doughty, Fox/Vincent.

[GibbsFan]

We should trade down to get multiple picks and then scout our butts off for talent on D in the draft/FA. MLB, DE, CB, DT, TE, and OL is where I would spend most of my focus.

The defensive side of the ball layed a huge egg in 06. Sure, there were injuries but the decline was disgraceful from an effort standpoint. We need youthful exuberance even if they make a few mistakes. Every player and coach should be held accountable and called into question for a truly dreadful performance.

If I were Gibbs, I'd sit down and talk about a defense that finished the season like a high school team. I would want to hear GW's plan for resurrecting this D and why we should keep or cut every player on the unit. I'm kind of flipflopping on GW myself, and would definitely demand a change or two from the assistants. We have so many coaches, but apparently no one can teach tackling anymore.

Offensively, we are headed in the right direction. Campbell's performance was very solid for a young guy with so little work with the first team. The offseason workouts will help him more than anyone else on the team. I'd like to see us keep Lloyd and cut Patten while giving Espy the opportunity to get some action on the field. Get Pucillo and Wade back whild drafting a guard or tackle and resign Dock. The only real need on offense is a monster TE who can make us more effective on the edge and in pass protection.

Frost is still a little too shaky for me and I would bring in somebody to offer real competition to him.

[hail2skins]

You're still not making any sense. Gibbs didn't change the offense or started to call the plays. Saunders simplified his offense for Campbell and it hummed. They didn't go back to the Gibbs' system.I'm of the opinion that Gibbs had a lot to do with the change in the offense. Not calling the plays but setting the direction.

[Dept_of_Defense]

Not sure cap wise you can get rid of both lloyd and Archuleta. Arch is gone. His calling the FO liars sealed his fate. Lloyd will return.
Hopefully Lloyd returns with a new attitude and rejuvenated motivation. He needs to follow in Santana's footsteps and make the most of opportunities that he gets. He could've had a few touchdowns this year, but he blew his opportunities. He needs to work harder on getting open and shedding off CB's that try to bump him off the line. Then, I would think about standing up for him again.

[hail2skins]

The problems with the defense cannot be fixed in one offseason. I think the offense is fine as long as they stick with what they were doing towards the end of the season. IMO, everthing in the offseason should be geared towards the defense. The only thing we need on offense is depth.

Specifically on the defense, it should be a back to basics approach. Break out the tackling dummies and drill them over and over again. Teach our CB's to turn and look for the ball when the receiver does.

[akhhorus]

I'm of the opinion that Gibbs had a lot to do with the change in the offense. Not calling the plays but setting the direction.

Thats an interesting theory. Could be true, but the plays that Saunders ran were his bread'n'butter plays: wide sweeps, offtackle runs and deep turn in routes. I suspect that Gibbs and Saunders hammered out a new plan-stripping away fluff, but that was still the Saunders offense.

[akhhorus]

The problems with the defense cannot be fixed in one offseason. I think the offense is fine as long as they stick with what they were doing towards the end of the season. IMO, everthing in the offseason should be geared towards the defense. The only thing we need on offense is depth.

Specifically on the defense, it should be a back to basics approach. Break out the tackling dummies and drill them over and over again. Teach our CB's to turn and look for the ball when the receiver does.

That will help, but I think injecting some speed at LB(with Rocky and a new MLB) and swapping out Springs for another CB will go a long way to help what's wrong with this defense. I don't think the defense is fundamentally flawed, it was hamstrung by surprising bad performances and a sudden drop in athletic ability. Williams' defense is a speed based defense and we struggled with speed on the field for the defense all season.

[BurgundyNGold]

Thats an interesting theory. Could be true, but the plays that Saunders ran were his bread'n'butter plays: wide sweeps, offtackle runs and deep turn in routes. I suspect that Gibbs and Saunders hammered out a new plan-stripping away fluff, but that was still the Saunders offense.
I think it was more of a commitment to the run that Gibbs wanted to enforce, not so much the specific plays. Saunders in the first half of the season (and in the secnd half to a lesser extent) was getting cute with the play calling with a bunch of finesse or fakeout plays. I don't think that brand or football fits well with either Gibbs or the W-L column.

[akhhorus]

I think it was more of a commitment to the run that Gibbs wanted to enforce, not so much the specific plays. Saunders in the first half of the season (and in the secnd half to a lesser extent) was getting cute with the play calling with a bunch of finesse or fakeout plays. I don't think that brand or football fits well with either Gibbs or the W-L column.

Oh, I buy that Gibbs pulled Saunders aside and told him to run more and stop the gimmick reverses and such, but that was a simplified version of the Saunders offense we saw with Campbell.

[shally]

Oh, I buy that Gibbs pulled Saunders aside and told him to run more and stop the gimmick reverses and such, but that was a simplified version of the Saunders offense we saw with Campbell.

agree.. i wonder who it was that finally got AS's ear and got him to use
sellers ?? he is a decent short yardage back, is solid on screens and can be a weapon inside the redzone... we wasted a year not using him enough on offense

[danny's stogie]

The problems with the defense cannot be fixed in one offseason. I think the offense is fine as long as they stick with what they were doing towards the end of the season. IMO, everthing in the offseason should be geared towards the defense. The only thing we need on offense is depth.

Specifically on the defense, it should be a back to basics approach. Break out the tackling dummies and drill them over and over again. Teach our CB's to turn and look for the ball when the receiver does.

In fact, the offense seems to have pretty good depth.
-Obviously the RBs are set.
-The QBs look good with Brunell likely coming back at a reduced contract.
-Assuming Dock is resigned, I like the line depth with both Wade and Pucillo playing well in limited action and Molinaro firmly entrenched as the backup LT. Granted, I don't feel comfortable with any of them starting a whole season, considering the paucity of quality lineman in today's watered-down NFL, that's not a bad group.
-I'm a little more concerned about the wideouts. Unless Lloyd completely turns his attitude around he's dead weight. ARE is talented and a hard worker, but he needs a lot of route running polish. Patten is likely gone, but Thrash and/or Espy make for nice 4/5s.

I also agree with the tackling part. The only team I recall tackling as poorly as this one is the 2003 team under Edwards. GW came in and drilled the 04 defense and turned them into one of the best tackling teams in the league. A much more demanding offseason in this respect is a must.

Also, speaking of the offseason, the one thing I really want to hear about from the offense is Jason Campbell, Moss, ARE, Cooley, Thrash, and Espy to be all joined at the hip and working on chemsitry. The recievers need to help JC learn how to make throws before their breaks and the timing needs to be flawless.

[shally]

In fact, the offense seems to have pretty good depth.
-Obviously the RBs are set.
-The QBs look good with Brunell likely coming back at a reduced contract.
-Assuming Dock is resigned, I like the line depth with both Wade and Pucillo playing well in limited action and Molinaro firmly entrenched as the backup LT. Granted, I don't feel comfortable with any of them starting a whole season, considering the paucity of quality lineman in today's watered-down NFL, that's not a bad group.
-I'm a little more concerned about the wideouts. Unless Lloyd completely turns his attitude around he's dead weight. ARE is talented and a hard worker, but he needs a lot of route running polish. Patten is likely gone, but Thrash and/or Espy make for nice 4/5s.

I also agree with the tackling part. The only team I recall tackling as poorly as this one is the 2003 team under Edwards. GW came in and drilled the 04 defense and turned them into one of the best tackling teams in the league. A much more demanding offseason in this respect is a must.

Also, speaking of the offseason, the one thing I really want to hear about from the offense is Jason Campbell, Moss, ARE, Cooley, Thrash, and Espy to be all joined at the hip and working on chemsitry. The recievers need to help JC learn how to make throws before their breaks and the timing needs to be flawless.

the saints looked far worse at the end of last year than the skins right now and just look at what 1 off season with a quality coach and a first class qb did for them ?? it wasn't all reggie bush, i can guarantee you that much...

[DoGood]

I can honestly say, "I DON'T KNOW."

[danny's stogie]

the saints looked far worse at the end of last year than the skins right now and just look at what 1 off season with a quality coach and a first class qb did for them ?? it wasn't all reggie bush, i can guarantee you that much...

Oh without a doubt. Things look bleak especially with all this doom and gloom talk and treating each individual personnel mistake as a national tragedy, but the team does have several things to be positive about, especially the appearance that they finally have a QB to build around for the next decade. Things in the NFL turn around very, very quickly and there's no reason why the Skins wouldn't be any different; right now reminds me of the 04 offseason, I hope and fully expect 07 to be like 05.

[shally]

I can honestly say, "I DON'T KNOW."

not sure even he knows right now..

[DoGood]

not sure even he knows right now..

That's what I'm scared of. I got that impression as well from the press conference and everything else that has gone on around here. This is certainly a daunting task Gibbs has ahead of him here.

[FanFromArizona]

the saints looked far worse at the end of last year than the skins right now and just look at what 1 off season with a quality coach and a first class qb did for them ?? it wasn't all reggie bush, i can guarantee you that much...

big difference is that they used the draft very nicely and made a GOOD trade to fill positions of need [Stallworth to the Eagles for the MLB and a draft pick: an AWESOME trade for the Saints]

we unfortunately don't have the luxury of draft picks to help us.

[shally]

big difference is that they used the draft very nicely and made a GOOD trade to fill positions of need [Stallworth to the Eagles for the MLB and a draft pick: an AWESOME trade for the Saints]

we unfortunately don't have the luxury of draft picks to help us.

their linebackers might be even worse than ours.. the difference is their def line, corners and safeties are better than ours and covered up most of the linebackers deficiencies.

and the eagles came out looking good on that trade because stallworth has played well for them

[dukeuch]

How? Focus on NASCAR. (joking, joking!)

[BurgundyNGold]

Oh without a doubt. Things look bleak especially with all this doom and gloom talk and treating each individual personnel mistake as a national tragedy, but the team does have several things to be positive about, especially the appearance that they finally have a QB to build around for the next decade. Things in the NFL turn around very, very quickly and there's no reason why the Skins wouldn't be any different; right now reminds me of the 04 offseason, I hope and fully expect 07 to be like 05.
To quote one our faves... "5 and 11. That's not very good". Well, it doesn't have the same impact I guess if we don't get to hear the ol' ball coach quipping it.

The fact remains that we are the only team in the NFC East who did not make the playoffs. By merely holding serve at 10-6 we would have been the #3 seed. Dallass went 9-7 -- the same record as last year -- and made the playoffs as the #5 seed.

That's depressing. Recognizing thast fact and holding certain players accountable for horrible play shouldn't be considered out of bounds. There is nothing wrong with expressing discontent at the play, the coaching, the FO... whatever. Now that the season is over, those of us who have held our tongues for the most part SHOULD be alowed to point fingers. Especially if you've sunk several $K into perpetuating the FA antics over the past 7 or 8 years.

[danny's stogie]

To quote one our faves... "5 and 11. That's not very good". Well, it doesn't have the same impact I guess if we don't get to hear the ol' ball coach quipping it.

The fact remains that we are the only team in the NFC East who did not make the playoffs. By merely holding serve at 10-6 we would have been the #3 seed. Dallass went 9-7 -- the same record as last year -- and made the playoffs as the #5 seed.

That's depressing. Recognizing thast fact and holding certain players accountable for horrible play shouldn't be considered out of bounds. There is nothing wrong with expressing discontent at the play, the coaching, the FO... whatever. Now that the season is over, those of us who have held our tongues for the most part SHOULD be alowed to point fingers. Especially if you've sunk several $K into perpetuating the FA antics over the past 7 or 8 years.

Huh, what are you talking aboot?

[BurgundyNGold]

Huh, what are you talking aboot?

I was responding to your "national tragedy" wise arse remark...

Oh without a doubt. Things look bleak especially with all this doom and gloom talk and treating each individual personnel mistake as a national tragedy, but the team does have several things to be positive about, especially the appearance that they finally have a QB to build around for the next decade. Things in the NFL turn around very, very quickly and there's no reason why the Skins wouldn't be any different; right now reminds me of the 04 offseason, I hope and fully expect 07 to be like 05.

I'm just reminding you that nobody has to make "gloom and doom" when the team finishes 5-11. Just because you choose to make excuses for the FO doesn't make us naysayers; it makes you a Pollyanna. Calling out that the FO sucks the carrot isn't turning it into a "national tragedy".

[Bigdaddy_23]

-Trade Portis (We can get players or picks for him, Betts would be cheaper, and Betts play more like a Redskin than Portis)
-Gibbs need to help Saunders shorten his playbook (No stretch plays and no gimicks)
-Sign Dockery
-Try to trade Arch (will probably release instead of showcasing him for value)
-Get a CB & MLB (should have never gotten rid of Champ Bailey and players playing out of position)
-Get a BIG receiver (All the receivers are about the same size and all home run hitters, I would hate to say it but T.O. would fit that mold)
-Greg Williams needs to increase his tolerance (to easy to get in his doghouse and hard to get out)

[santanadasavior]

Someone may have said this somewhere but I think this would work out well for us.

Patriots Get:

Redskins 1st Round Pick
Brandon Lloyd
Kenny Wright

Redskins Get:

Seahawks 1st Round Pick
Patriots 1st Round Pick


I don't know the details of cap penalties and such so this may not be possible based on that.

The reason I think this will work is the Patriots always find themselves short in the secondary and having a veteran corner could appeal to them. Also they lack a deep threat in the passing game. They have a lot of possession recievers but no vertical threat. Both of them are likely to be let go by us anyway but I just think while we are at it let's get something for them.

BTW as of right now those two picks are 22 and 28 I believe, not quite sure.

Thoughts?

[Biggie]

In a perfect world, the Patriots would throw in something like a third rounder too, to make up for the 3rd and 4th round picks that we gave up for Lloyd. However, if the Patriots offered that trade, I would take it in a heartbeat.

[GoSkins!36]

I'm pretty sure Kenny Wright is a free agent. I think he only signed a one-year deal. so only way that would work is if we did a sign and trade, which hardy ever (if ever) happens in the NFL.

[Jon Jansen is money]

I'm not sure why they would want Lloyd and a subpar DB.

[santanadasavior]

I guess this is a tad optimistic but with they play corners worse than Wright at #2 due to injuries every year. Also Lloyd does us no good at this point so why not throw him out there for someone else to jump on him. He is a physical talent and there is no denying that.

[firehawk157]

We'd be stuck with Arch then, Lloyd's cap hit is pretty hefty. I think we'll keep him around, its just cheaper, cap-wise to do that. Wright is a free agent, it wouldnt be worth it to resign him to trade him. The draft chart says it would be worth it to do a straight swap, the 6th overall for the 22nd and 24th overall. But I doubt the Pats would do that unless they see somebody they really like.

[FanFromArizona]

Someone may have said this somewhere but I think this would work out well for us.

Patriots Get:

Redskins 1st Round Pick
Brandon Lloyd
Kenny Wright

Redskins Get:

Seahawks 1st Round Pick
Patriots 1st Round Pick


I don't know the details of cap penalties and such so this may not be possible based on that.

The reason I think this will work is the Patriots always find themselves short in the secondary and having a veteran corner could appeal to them. Also they lack a deep threat in the passing game. They have a lot of possession recievers but no vertical threat. Both of them are likely to be let go by us anyway but I just think while we are at it let's get something for them.

BTW as of right now those two picks are 22 and 28 I believe, not quite sure.

Thoughts?

I like the creative thinking, but the draft picks would equal each other out.
Why we would include Lloyd in the trade, that would be overkill. Wright is not tradeable. And I don't think they would trade for Lloyd based on his temperament.

[ace4ever]

-Re-signing Dock is a given considereing all the posts I have seen.
-I think the coaching staff, on both sides of the ball need to be reduced. That said, a complete overhaul is a bad idea.
-The first rounder should be traded for more picks, or they should draft a d-lineman
-Either the coaches and team leaders deal with Lloyd or cut him. Knowing his history and this season, there is little reason to keep him IMO
-Give AA another chance. To me Lloyd, while not in the T.O. category of locker room cancers, is close enough to warrant not being here. AA, on the other hand, messed up badly on defence, but was less of a distraction. Plus, he was kinda made a scapegoat by GW. I'm not saying these two deserve to be coddled, but one of them has to go

[FanFromArizona]

We'd be stuck with Arch then, Lloyd's cap hit is pretty hefty. I think we'll keep him around, its just cheaper, cap-wise to do that. Wright is a free agent, it wouldnt be worth it to resign him to trade him. The draft chart says it would be worth it to do a straight swap, the 6th overall for the 22nd and 24th overall. But I doubt the Pats would do that unless they see somebody they really like.


Perhaps a WR or CB(if they lose/don't retain Samuels). That is about the only thing they would want at our spot. Both of which would be a possibility, wanting to leap ahead of Minny for the WR or to get up high enough to get an elite CB.

[RedskinRyan]

I'm not sure why they would want Lloyd and a subpar DB.

yeah, thats why this isnt happening

[danny's stogie]

I was responding to your "national tragedy" wise arse remark...

I'm just reminding you that nobody has to make "gloom and doom" when the team finishes 5-11. Just because you choose to make excuses for the FO doesn't make us naysayers; it makes you a Pollyanna. Calling out that the FO sucks the carrot isn't turning it into a "national tragedy".

Ok, so I'm chatting with shally about how easily things can turn around in the NFL and how the Skins have several bright spots to hang their hat on (especially in comparison to those 90s 4-6 win teams) despite the prevailing sentiment that the sky is falling, then you come by and start spouting off about pointing fingers and pollyannas. Get a grip.

[Da1QbnPaPi]

I doubt this would happen. Pats build thru the draft. Two first rounders for them is god sent. But I would love this. The more young talent we can groom the better! Might i say cheap talent too. Btw we arent this lucky or smart in the F.O draft pick wise. We might end up giving our first rounder for corey dillion rather than getting there two firsts.

[shally]

no.. wright is a free agent..

not gonna happen that the pats bail us out of our draft woes... besides, gibbs seems to like lloyd for no reason that i can fathom

[FanFromArizona]

I doubt this would happen. Pats build thru the draft. Two first rounders for them is god sent. But I would love this. The more young talent we can groom the better! Might i say cheap talent too. Btw we arent this lucky or smart in the F.O draft pick wise. We might end up giving our first rounder for corey dillion rather than getting there two firsts.

Patriots need more WRs. They have Reche Caldwell and Ben Watson as their top receiver targets. Chad Jackson is still developing and Troy Brown is getting old. I can see them possibly trading up for an elite receiver, but they may also elect to stay "PAT" (pun intended).

[skinsfan36]

lol brandon crybaby and kenny wrong. we have a better shot of offering them patten with the 1st to get their two firsts.

[Da1QbnPaPi]

LoL but Pats are cheap! Why cant we get so lucky to trade one of our WRs for a first round? I'm sorry but Branch was not worth a 1st round. I think that was a steal. Actually Chad will be better. But as we all know WR in the first round is the hardest position to pan out into something. i.e Taylor Jacobs and a host of others. So why would they risk those two picks?

[skinsfan36]

to fix the skins
1.resignings-dock,pucillo,wade(if possible),jimoh(teams),fox(teams)
2.restructures-springs,etc...(talked about alot)
3.cuts-patten,daniels,hall,fauria,arch?
4.free agents-fletcher,clements or samuels,david(colts cb),bjaha bhamila(should be cheap),oline depth
5.draft-branch at #6,then in rds 5,6,7 defense,defense,defense,and then sign 3 blocking tes to fight it out in camp
6.coach together,communicate,dont be arrogant cuz u were 5-11

[RedSkinBrit]

I think our O will grow,but our D needs new blood at LB and CB.

[Da1QbnPaPi]

I think our O will grow,but our D needs new blood at LB and CB.


New blood has gotten us into this mess. I'm all for grooming talent. Theres a quote that fits what we do perfectly, you cant teach an old dog new tricks. The FA we sign were groom by someone else, what makes you think they will fit with our style? I love signing FAs but its not working. One or two a year should be enough. One playmaker and maybe a couple depth signings. I beg we sign no one on O. Leave them alone they meshing right now. The only position we cant help to goto FA is MLB. The position is just too hard to learn and we need it now. All other positions can be drafted with the least amount of learning curve. But we must start soon grooming we dont want to be that team that has a good O and bad D and then when our entire O-line is on there last leg we become a great Defense again. Its too hard to win a super bowl we need both our sides playing well and we need it fast.

[firehawk157]

LoL but Pats are cheap! Why cant we get so lucky to trade one of our WRs for a first round? I'm sorry but Branch was not worth a 1st round. I think that was a steal. Actually Chad will be better. But as we all know WR in the first round is the hardest position to pan out into something. i.e Taylor Jacobs and a host of others. So why would they risk those two picks?

Anything can happen on draft day. Mario Williams anybody?

[Da1QbnPaPi]

lol call me crazy I agree with what the texans did. Only because i was looking thru burgundy and gold glasses. How many years have we begged for a DE? DE usually last longer in the NFL. Bush will be an awesome player but if you had Davis(no one knew he would be out for the year) who was in his own right developing into a top 12 back why would you pick bush? Lmao in fact I would have trade that first rounder to get more picks. Look at the Chargers how well this the Eli Manning Trade work out for them?

[shally]

lol call me crazy I agree with what the texans did. Only because i was looking thru burgundy and gold glasses. How many years have we begged for a DE? DE usually last longer in the NFL. Bush will be an awesome player but if you had Davis(no one knew he would be out for the year) who was in his own right developing into a top 12 back why would you pick bush? Lmao in fact I would have trade that first rounder to get more picks. Look at the Chargers how well this the Eli Manning Trade work out for them?

that is exactly it..if he didn't want bush, he should have at least traded the pick and filled out the roster with more quality.. i do not buy that they have the next great defensive end

[shally]

New blood has gotten us into this mess. I'm all for grooming talent. Theres a quote that fits what we do perfectly, you cant teach an old dog new tricks. The FA we sign were groom by someone else, what makes you think they will fit with our style? I love signing FAs but its not working. One or two a year should be enough. One playmaker and maybe a couple depth signings. I beg we sign no one on O. Leave them alone they meshing right now. The only position we cant help to goto FA is MLB. The position is just too hard to learn and we need it now. All other positions can be drafted with the least amount of learning curve. But we must start soon grooming we dont want to be that team that has a good O and bad D and then when our entire O-line is on there last leg we become a great Defense again. Its too hard to win a super bowl we need both our sides playing well and we need it fast.

the defense needs new blood.. or more precisely better talent.. there is simply no way that returning the same group of older players next year in the hope that they will grow magic in the off season is simply foolishness. the new players can come via the draft, post draft free agents, ,trades, or
UFA's, but come it must.. we simply lack talent on defense. we cannot replace all the parts that need replacing on defense this off season-- but some of them must go.

[BurgundyNGold]

Ok, so I'm chatting with shally about how easily things can turn around in the NFL and how the Skins have several bright spots to hang their hat on (especially in comparison to those 90s 4-6 win teams) despite the prevailing sentiment that the sky is falling, then you come by and start spouting off about pointing fingers and pollyannas. Get a grip.
I'm not the one who keeps making excuses for this franchise by seeing some bright side of winning 5 games (dead between the 4 and 6 you just mentioned), which is 5 LESS games than last year. That, for the record, is having a "grip" on reality. When people point that out or that personnel decisions are a big reason why this is the case, try not to belittle them with your little passive aggressive swipes.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

-Trade Portis (We can get players or picks for him, Betts would be cheaper, and Betts play more like a Redskin than Portis)
-Gibbs need to help Saunders shorten his playbook (No stretch plays and no gimicks)
-Sign Dockery
-Try to trade Arch (will probably release instead of showcasing him for value)
-Get a CB & MLB (should have never gotten rid of Champ Bailey and players playing out of position)
-Get a BIG receiver (All the receivers are about the same size and all home run hitters, I would hate to say it but T.O. would fit that mold)
-Greg Williams needs to increase his tolerance (to easy to get in his doghouse and hard to get out)
The 3 bolded ones would put us at about 100 trillion over the cap.
And I hope you are not serious about T.O.

[warpaint]

Axe Al Saunders, we just need to getting back to Redskins football. Run Portis and Betts. Spread the field and use Cooley and Moss. I don't think the offense is that far off from being good. The defense is a whole different matter. Our secondary is in shambles. We need to draft And upgrade thru Free Agency. We need more depth on the Dline too. The LB corp was suspect too. We need drafts picks more than anything. I'd almost be willing to trade our #1 for multiple picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

with the way we draft why give up the 6 pick for 2nd and 3rd rounders ? this would be a great idea if we had someone that could evaluate talent, something we dont have at the present time.

[warpaint]

Axe Al Saunders, we just need to getting back to Redskins football. Run Portis and Betts. Spread the field and use Cooley and Moss. I don't think the offense is that far off from being good. The defense is a whole different matter. Our secondary is in shambles. We need to draft And upgrade thru Free Agency. We need more depth on the Dline too. The LB corp was suspect too. We need drafts picks more than anything. I'd almost be willing to trade our #1 for multiple picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

with the way we draft why give up the 6 pick for 2nd and 3rd rounders ? this would be a great idea if we had someone that could evaluate talent, something we dont have at the present time.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

We have very little choice other then to turn to free agency in order to improve our team, since we throw away draft picks as if they carry the plague.
On offense, resign Doc and leave everything as it is.
On defense, get a LB, a CB, a Safety and draft Dline.
On STs, change nothing.
As for the coaching staff, leave the offense alone, and see what has to be done on defense. In a perfect world, we would fire Vinny and get a real GM, but that ain't happening, so no point in dwelling over it.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

with the way we draft why give up the 6 pick for 2nd and 3rd rounders ? this would be a great idea if we had someone that could evaluate talent, something we dont have at the present time.
Actually we are very good at drafting on the first day. Well, at least in the very few times we have picks in the 2nd and 3rd round. In the last 3 years, we have ahd one 3rd rounder (Cooley), and one 2nd (MacIntosh).
And our first rounders are pretty good as well (Taylor, Campbell, Rogers).

[joethefan]

How about teaching defensive players how to tackle?


Thus firing GW...your defense dropped 21 spots in 1 year...that deserves someone's head...

[joethefan]

John Riggins asked Gibbs some tough questions yesterday "Joe who disagrees with you at Redskin Park?" he replied "Danny does alot, Danny and I had a shouting match the last couple of days ... and we came to a cosnclusion that some things were a mistake.. we came to the conclusion that that or something else was a mistake..so he does disagree with me "

I was like WOW when I heard that
I heard Gibbs say yesterday on 730AM on the Joe Gibbs show that ...

[Dolla Bill]

How to fix the skins? That's one tall order, but the offseason should be concentrated on defense. The biggest 3 are signing LF-B and Clements, and drafting Branch (if available). With those 3 moves, you get young on the Dline, a solid leader at MLB, and a good CB. Did LF-B play for Williams at all on his D?

[redskin_rich]

Thoughts?
My thoughts, this is getting merged. There are too many, "do we do this?" threads showing up on the board. This is going in the "How does Gibbs fix the Skins" thread and when that thread gets too big, an official "you be the GM" thread will be started, so everyone can throw their ideas out without filling the board with individual threads.

[Brokenstriker]

What should Gibbs do ... here's some thoughts

1. Resign your own free agents, if they can't make the roster cut them ... but sign them
2. Bench and fine every player who collects a brainless penalty (e.g., celebration after a score) ... Have some class and stop killing the team.
3. Fine players for excessive on-field celebrations for anything other than a Redskins' score (i.e., "look mom I made a tackle" celebrations) ... Have some class
4. Chain every defensive back except Taylor and Springs to a football throwing machine a make them catch 200 balls a day the entire off-season (300 for Rogers).
5. Use the first round pick for the best "immediate starter" to upgrade either MLB, CB, or DL. If none are available, trade for at least one mid 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder , or two first rounders.
6. Play every Pre-season game to win, open the playbook up to have regular season playbook range in by the 3rd pre-season game. Last season's approach of keeping it all a secret is complete BS!
7. Hold open tryouts (just watched Invincible ... there must be a gem out there in the National Capital Region somewhere)
8. Sign all the "Core Redskins Players" and take your Captains from that list. Cut them if they can't make the roster ... but sign them
9. Walk away from "You can't lose your position due to injury" and embrace "You deliver on the field, you stay on the field ... You don't and you sit"
10. Focus on the objective ... making the Redskins great (Gibbs seems to be emotional about the guys and the players and all the touchie feelie stuff that grandfathers talk about ... NFL coaches need to be hard-asses)

[shally]

Thus firing GW...your defense dropped 21 spots in 1 year...that deserves someone's head...

the question is not whether the defense fell off a cliff last year.. it did.. but whether this is a non reversable trend..
i do not think it is because the defense did play well in spurts.
there is talent there. just not enough of it.

plus, the league has caught on to his blitzes, so it is time to come up with a better concept. overall, offenses have gained the edge because of the league emphasis in penalties against the defense.. let him earn his money.

[redwolf1218]

the question is not whether the defense fell off a cliff last year.. it did.. but whether this is a non reversable trend..
i do not think it is because the defense did play well in spurts.
there is talent there. just not enough of it.

plus, the league has caught on to his blitzes, so it is time to come up with a better concept. overall, offenses have gained the edge because of the league emphasis in penalties against the defense.. let him earn his money.
i think Williams can adapt. i dont think it would be best to start all over with a new coach, scheme, terminology, etc. We might end up with the offense finally getting a grasp on the playbook and helping the defense by sustaining some drives and eating the clock, only to have the defense trying to learn another new system all over again.

[shally]

i think Williams can adapt. i dont think it would be best to start all over with a new coach, scheme, terminology, etc. We might end up with the offense finally getting a grasp on the playbook and helping the defense by sustaining some drives and eating the clock, only to have the defense trying to learn another new system all over again.


agree.. but he needs better talent.. there is no disguising that.. i thought that springs hit it on the head with that one..

[redwolf1218]

agree.. but he needs better talent.. there is no disguising that.. i thought that springs hit it on the head with that one..
agree. i think they know it too, and they will proceed to fix it accordingly.

[joethefan]

i think Williams can adapt. i dont think it would be best to start all over with a new coach, scheme, terminology, etc. We might end up with the offense finally getting a grasp on the playbook and helping the defense by sustaining some drives and eating the clock, only to have the defense trying to learn another new system all over again.
well remember if we don't go to the playoffs next year, with all this energy Gibbs is about to give up for this team this year..if they don't get at least to the second round of the playoffs i think he's out...and they have to have some convincingly good team wins....this team will have to return to dominance for him to stay...but if we go 8-8, he'll leave...He said clearly, He'd leave if he goes through another season like this...So if that defense does not return to dominance next year and Gibbs leaves, GW will not get that coaching job...

[danny's stogie]

I'm not the one who keeps making excuses for this franchise by seeing some bright side of winning 5 games (dead between the 4 and 6 you just mentioned), which is 5 LESS games than last year. That, for the record, is having a "grip" on reality. When people point that out or that personnel decisions are a big reason why this is the case, try not to belittle them with your little passive aggressive swipes.

What excuses did I make? Let's recap:

H2S comments about the offense being set, but only needing depth and that the defense needs to get back to basics and start tackling well.

Originally Posted by hail2skins
The problems with the defense cannot be fixed in one offseason. I think the offense is fine as long as they stick with what they were doing towards the end of the season. IMO, everthing in the offseason should be geared towards the defense. The only thing we need on offense is depth.

Specifically on the defense, it should be a back to basics approach. Break out the tackling dummies and drill them over and over again. Teach our CB's to turn and look for the ball when the receiver does.

I agreed, but thought the offense's depth looks pretty solid going into next season assuming several players are resigned.

In fact, the offense seems to have pretty good depth.
-Obviously the RBs are set. etc....

I also agree with the tackling part. The only team I recall tackling as poorly as this one is the 2003 team under Edwards. GW came in and drilled the 04 defense and turned them into one of the best tackling teams in the league. A much more demanding offseason in this respect is a must.

Shally responded with this:

the saints looked far worse at the end of last year than the skins right now and just look at what 1 off season with a quality coach and a first class qb did for them ?? it wasn't all reggie bush, i can guarantee you that much...

I agreed with shally, commenting on the ability to turn things around quickly in the NFL.

Oh without a doubt. Things look bleak especially with all this doom and gloom talk and treating each individual personnel mistake as a national tragedy, but the team does have several things to be positive about, especially the appearance that they finally have a QB to build around for the next decade. Things in the NFL turn around very, very quickly and there's no reason why the Skins wouldn't be any different; right now reminds me of the 04 offseason, I hope and fully expect 07 to be like 05.

Then you flip out about expressing discontent. Your posts have nothing at all to do with the theme of mine or shally's or H2S's. And I don't see a single excuse in any of my posts. I criticize the sissification of the offseason training camp, preseason, and OTA's and it's effect on the defense, and I applaud the offense for the steps they've taken, the progress they've made, and the talent they have heading into the future. Next time I have positive thoughts about something Skins related I'll keep them to myself if it makes you happy and the next time I critique the defense in any other way than Greg Williams is an arrogant prick who wronged Lavar and Arch I'll shut my trap

As for my comments about the "doom and gloom" atmosphere: do you deny that this is the prevailing sentiment in the media, on message boards, and in other media outlets? It's the way it is right now, there was even a post on this board mentioning the loss of Jesse Armstead as a failing of the defense. A national tragedy: there are more pages in the wash post right now about the failings of the Duckett trade than about Ethiopia and Somalia.

Sorry I decided to post something about a topic other than Vin Cerrato. Don't request reinforcements, Alexios.

[shally]

agree. i think they know it too, and they will proceed to fix it accordingly.

they tried to do that last off season... that was what the swap of arch for clark, wright for harris, rocky for holdman and the addition of carter was supposed to do.. didn't exactly work out as planned..

hopefully they make wiser choices this offseason, but new blood is definitely needed

[RedskinsDave]

John Riggins asked Gibbs some tough questions yesterday "Joe who disagrees with you at Redskin Park?" he replied "Danny does alot, Danny and I had a shouting match the last couple of days ... and we came to a cosnclusion that some things were a mistake.. we came to the conclusion that that or something else was a mistake..so he does disagree with me "

I was like WOW when I heard that
I heard Gibbs say yesterday on 730AM on the Joe Gibbs show that ...

I am sure it was over something really important like, hmmmm, which pizza delivery to call. Gibbs and Snyder think far too alike when it comes to football matters.

[shally]

I am sure it was over something really important like, hmmmm, which pizza delivery to call. Gibbs and Snyder think far too alike when it comes to football matters.

again, very true... all the talk about snyder corrupting gibbs to his way of acquiring personnel is a bunch of rot.. they DO think alike.. which is why all the talk of a GM is pie inthe sky, i believe.. neither wants someone to come in and change the way things are being done.. you do not make a billion dollars or go to multiple superbowls by constantly second guessing yourself

[redwolf1218]

they tried to do that last off season... that was what the swap of arch for clark, wright for harris, rocky for holdman and the addition of carter was supposed to do.. didn't exactly work out as planned..

hopefully they make wiser choices this offseason, but new blood is definitely needed
i think Carter was a good addition, but he took some time to get acclimated. they never let Rocky take over for Holdman. letting Clark leave and targeting Arch as an upgrade turned out to be a huge mistake.

they need a reliable and durable corner and another nickle corner

[bantu]

What should Gibbs do ... here's some thoughts

1. Resign your own free agents, if they can't make the roster cut them ... but sign them
2. Bench and fine every player who collects a brainless penalty (e.g., celebration after a score) ... Have some class and stop killing the team.
3. Fine players for excessive on-field celebrations for anything other than a Redskins' score (i.e., "look mom I made a tackle" celebrations) ... Have some class
4. Chain every defensive back except Taylor and Springs to a football throwing machine a make them catch 200 balls a day the entire off-season (300 for Rogers).
5. Use the first round pick for the best "immediate starter" to upgrade either MLB, CB, or DL. If none are available, trade for at least one mid 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder , or two first rounders.
6. Play every Pre-season game to win, open the playbook up to have regular season playbook range in by the 3rd pre-season game. Last season's approach of keeping it all a secret is complete BS!
7. Hold open tryouts (just watched Invincible ... there must be a gem out there in the National Capital Region somewhere)
8. Sign all the "Core Redskins Players" and take your Captains from that list. Cut them if they can't make the roster ... but sign them
9. Walk away from "You can't lose your position due to injury" and embrace "You deliver on the field, you stay on the field ... You don't and you sit"
10. Focus on the objective ... making the Redskins great (Gibbs seems to be emotional about the guys and the players and all the touchie feelie stuff that grandfathers talk about ... NFL coaches need to be hard-asses)

They do hold open tryouts. Every god forsaken year cuz we have no draft picks to fill our roster. Haven't you seen the amount of undrafted free agents that come here and make the team? By the way, open tryouts in this day and age is retarted.

[dj_stouty]

Anyone watch Comcast Sportsnet this morning? They are doing a 3-part interview with Gibbs. He was asked how he was going to change the way personnel was brought to the team. He responded without actually answering the question by saying; [paraphrase] "We have always used the draft, trades and free agency to fill in the roster and we will continue to do that." Nothing will change, IMO. Anyone looking for the Redskins to all-of-a-sudden turn into the Pats and build the team through the draft is kidding themselves. (Especially since we only have half of our picks in this year's draft) What he said makes me believe nothing will change and; I believe they will do what they always do: Spend money via free agency and get at least two immediate starters...get at least one starter-quality guy through the draft who may be able to start early into '07...and make a trade for at least one guy. Rinse and Repeat....Like it or Leave it, I guess.

What would I do?

* I'd resist pimp slapping Gregg Williams and give him one more shot against my better judgement. He can't possibly get anyworse than he did in '06 unless he manges to slip one spot down to a 32nd ranking. After all, he did allow the same yardage per game as the "great" Marvin Lewis did with the Bengals. I'd require him to hit the books and come up with new defensive schemes. The old ones are just that. OLD. 2 seasons ago, he was hearald as having the most comlicated schemes in the NFL. Not anymore. I'd also keep him around for no other reason than to deal with the mess he created. Oh yeah...and I'd make sure the safeties and cornerbacks met together in the same meetings every week. *duh*

* I'd make sure Al Saunders understands that Campbell, Portis, Betts, Sellers, Moss and Cooley are not the same players that Green, LJ, Priest, Richardson, Kennison and Gonzalez were. Both sets of players are grossly talented, but both are also very different. I'd also tell him to drop a few hundred of those 700 pages of that damn playbook. This isnt' the West Coast Offense, Al! The latest Harry Potter installment doesn't even have 700 pages! We all know he probably stole a dozen or two plays from Tecmo Bowl anyway.

* I'd boot Lloyd from the team immediately. He was a cancer at Univ. of Illinois...he was a cancer with the 49ers...and *shocker*...he is a cancer with the Redskins! Just like Archuletta...he was "as advertised" and that shouldn't shock anyone. Even his own teamates are calling him out as having burnt bridges with them. Cut our losses and get him out of Ashburn. That means keeping Archuletta for another year. We can't cut them both. I'd cut the worst of the two evils. At least Archuletta doesn't throw his helmet to the tune of a 15-yard penalty...or go after players on the sidelines. I'd rebuild that defense and get it back in shape so it can accomodate the luxury of a run-stuffing-in-the-box safety. The guy is one of the better tacklers on the team at the LOS (which isnt' saying much, I guess) so put him to good use; at least in certain packages.

* Having heard Gibbs say on Comcast that they will continue to get players through free agency, I'd go after the best CB I could get my hands on. Throw him the 10/30/7 contract everyone else seems to get around here. Actually...the 10/30/7 is probably too cheap now. I'm guessing the next year's free agents will get 12/35/7. I'd make Springs restructure his contract otherwise he will have to go. He isn't worth his 7 million dollar cap hit next year, which to my knowledge, would be 2nd highest on the team. Plus, he is a Cowboys fan, so lets give him the same fate the Wizards did with Jared Jefferies, another Cowboy backer. Next, I'd open up Danny's Wallet for a stud MLB....but only if the guy is relatively young and hasnt' hit his peak yet. I'd take brains over brawn for this position. I think Lemar Marshall (who was one of my favorite Redskins at the beginning of the season) doesn't have the mental ability to call defensive audibles as a MLB should...and thus the defense suffered. I'd also put Marcus Washington on notice that he will get fined everytime he does that ridiculous dance everytime he makes a tackle giving up a first down. I'd use our first rounder on the defensive line. (I say that every year!) I can't consider using it on a d-back, since GW rarely allows them to start the season. This teams needs a QUICK fix! I'd draft the DT from Michigan or the best DE on the board. I would also demote Warrick Holdman to the valet parking stand at Redskins Park. The guy can't hit football players, so I wouldn't be concerned about him hitting the other cars. Plus, he can give Jaquez Green some company...

* And now the home-cooking we have been longing for! I'd make a solid attempt at resigning Dock to continue the great chemistry this O-line has established over the past 3 years. He isn't a stud...but he isn't dogmeat either. If money was no object, I'd spend more on a guy like Eric Steinbach, but I'd rather use those funds for the defense. I'd also resign Chris Cooley to an extension immediately. He is only signed through next season...so lets lock him up (ala Jansen) now instead of letting that pricetag go upwards if he has a killer '07. Oh yeah...I'd also resign the Redskin who has been flawless and mistake-free over the past 5 years. Yes, I'm talking about Ethan "Red" Albright! BTW - If anyone gets an Albright jersey you will be my automatic hero.

* I'd address how things were done early into the offseason. I'd start training camp earlier than in the past. If I recall, the Skins were one of the last teams to report last season. Change takes time, so get started early. And, for a REAL change of pace, I'd move the training camp away from Ashburn! (Sorry locals) I'd move it to Richmond, VA so I could personally attend more days at camp. <--Yes...a very selfish move. ;) I'd also bite my tongue and open up the playbook during the preseason. Playing it "vanilla" didn't do the players any good, and it sure didn't stop opposing teams from game planning against the offense. That experiment has run its course.

*While I'm at it..I'd also hire a design team to create new uniforms. That could mean simply creating a white retro jersey to accompany the retro burgundy jerseys...OR starting from scratch and making two new versions using the real colors of this team; Burgundy and Gold! We are NOT the Chiefs....and our coaching staff (especially Gibbs) looks like a McDonalds drive-thru attendant wearing ketchup red and mustard yellow. "No...you may not have fries with that! Instead, I'll toss a free Frostie into the bag for free".

That is about all I can think of for now...

[bgforever]

Axe Al Saunders, we just need to getting back to Redskins football. Run Portis and Betts. Spread the field and use Cooley and Moss. I don't think the offense is that far off from being good. The defense is a whole different matter. Our secondary is in shambles. We need to draft And upgrade thru Free Agency. We need more depth on the Dline too. The LB corp was suspect too. We need drafts picks more than anything. I'd almost be willing to trade our #1 for multiple picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

Very likely- moneywise too. We need a DE, for sure. CB, MLB as others have said in FA and go from there, to move Marshall back to where he backed up both MW, MLB, and he can back Rocky, teach him. We can dump Holdman and if GW won't do it, I'd dump him.

[RedskinsATW!]

My $.02 (please feel free to give change):

QB: I believe Jason Campbell is the real deal we'd hoped for. Not to annoint him MVP like those morons in Dallas did for Romo, but he showed real poise and promise. Good news, if Brunell is back at all, it'll be at a huge discount which frees up Danny Bucks for free agency.

RB: CP is CP. Please don't load the board with "what if." CP is not going anywhere (thank God). Betts had a solid year but it's also the first one he stayed healthy for an entire season. Rock will be the 3rd back because TJ's prolly gone (with our 3rd rounder... don't get me started). "Caveman" Sellers is FB, of course.

TE: Cooley is our man. Everyone else is expendable to say it nicely.

WR: Here's where it gets dicey. Santana and ARE are solid. Lloyd will be given another chance but I'm not sure what Coach does about Patten. A great locker room guy but what has he really contributed to on the field? Big restructure or he's gone. Call it a refund on services not rendered. Give Espy a bigger shot and Thrash is a solid ST so he's prolly a bargain.

O-Line: Re-sign Doc and draft some depth on Day 2. Wade did decent replacing Jansen. Out strongest suit, I believe.

D-Line: We need real help on stopping the run and getting pressure with 4. Carter came on at the end of the season but he needs some help. Golston looked like a gem for a 6th rounder. Draft or free agency.

LB's: Draft, free agency, abduction, spiritual channeling of Bronco Ngurski, whatever it takes. Just give me someone, anyone, who can tackle (besides Sean Taylor). Marcus Washington is solid if he's not asked to play all 3 positions simultaneously. Hopefully Rocky really brings the heat in TC and we can get somebody to put Holdman and Marshall in reserve status where they do okay.

Secondary: Free agency. Springs is a fine cover guy for 8 games a season. Need depth. Rogers is a nickel guy at best. Jimoh isn't bad on ST's. As a DB, he's not bad on ST's. Prielou will be back and that should help. AA restructures if he's even salvageable. Sean Taylor is a force if he has help. Get him some. I'd keep Vincent as insurance and for veteran leadership. End state: Draft or get a CB in free agency.

So, with that said:

1. Restructure Brunell, AA (if possible - sorry I'm not a cap guru), Patten or cut and spend that money somewhere else (defense preferably).

2. Somebody will be real hot for the #6 pick overall. Slide down 10 or 12 spots and get a later 1st rounder and maybe a late 2nd or 3rd. Usually (not always but notice "usually") offensive skill positions go first. The Raiders will take a Brady Quinn and the Lions will take a WR because they're the Lions and that's what they do. Someone will be interested if not, pick away.

3. I'd leave Al Saunders in for continuity with Campbell. Gregg Williams had some injuries and has been successful everywhere. Let's call this season a fluke all the way around (rather than applying that tag to last year) and try again.

4. I'd use FA for a CB. A good one but not a high priced, "shut down" corner type. Draft the best defensive players available and get some depth at O-line.

5. Make TC something akin to a POW camp. Those who live get to play. The rest we'll send to SF.

I believe they can turn it around. I'm as depressed as everyone else but we're closer than it seems. The O-line is solid, our star players are all well under 30, and we have a (upcoming) 3rd year QB with poise, promise, and a cannon for a right arm. We need Gregg Williams to be Gregg Williams again and the worm will turn. Another DE that can rush or a DT to stuff the run, a LB, and a decent cover corner and we're back in business. Hell, Coach went 7-9 in 1988 after winning the SB the prior year. Now THAT, was disappointing. If not, maybe Nick Saban can be lured from Miami or is it Tuscaloosa? Just kidding.

[bgforever]

3. I'd leave Al Saunders in for continuity with Campbell. Gregg Williams had some injuries and has been successful everywhere. Let's call this season a fluke all the way around (rather than applying that tag to last year) and try again Posted by REDSKINATW

Ok, I can reconcile my absurd statement on dumping Williams, he really DID have a slew of injured players at critical times, mainly Springs, Grif, Rogers, Salave'a, and the underperformance of AA and ST being subpar or stretched too much like MW, who also played hurt all season. Silly of me to think it was easy to pin on Williams, but really he hurt his persona, keeping Holdman in as a statue and watching him knocked down constantly on running plays, arrive late on passes.

[hockeygoalie29]

While I don't think that the Skins will or should trade Portis, because of the rumors, I tried to think of a plausible scenerio. The most likely destination in my mind would be Detroit. They need a big time running back to replace Kevin Jones who can't stay healthy. We need a reciever who's taller than 5' 8''. I could see a trade involving Portis, our 6th pick, their 2nd pick, and one of their big recievers. I'm not sure in what combination.

[GWBlitzST]

Get Robert Royal back to get this locker room back together. Trade a 7th rounder to the Steelers for Ryan Clark so Sean Taylor will play again. Trade our 1st rounder and Lloyd to the Giants for Pierce and start playing a 3-4. Give TJ Duckett bus fare. Deport Jerry Gray and Dale Lindsey for treason. That's a start.

[bgforever]

Get Robert Royal back to get this locker room back together. Trade a 7th rounder to the Steelers for Ryan Clark so Sean Taylor will play again. Trade our 1st rounder and Lloyd to the Giants for Pierce and start playing a 3-4. Give TJ Duckett bus fare. Deport Jerry Gray and Dale Lindsey for treason. That's a start.


These are doable. Calling Vinny "Testostaronie" Cerrato now.

[silverspring]

Simplify things!
We don't need the most complicated defense and we don't need a 700 page offense. Gibbs and Saunders need to get on the same page and do so before the season starts.

[redskin_rich]

And, for a REAL change of pace, I'd move the training camp away from Ashburn! (Sorry locals) I'd move it to Richmond, VA so I could personally attend more days at camp. <--Yes...a very selfish move. ;)
HAHAHA........




no!



:p

[skinsgurl4life]

the best we can probably do is work on our defense......alot and besides that we need to draft superstars on our defense maybe get rid of lloyd (or how ever you spell his last name) too. our offense is ok with campbell there to make it better and moss to go the extra yard to get the ball and when portis is back we will be unstoppable and maybe a little betts to (if he will keep his hands on the ball.but you know i think we have huge guys but they just arent where they should be we dont need monsters playing rb that just get 1 yard each time they should be blocking for campbell or sack the other teams qb while a fast mildly huge guy truckes every1 for 10 yards.(excuse me if i get something completly wrong :) )i am praying that we get good next year though so defense for sure needs to change a little.

[hockeygoalie29]

Get Robert Royal back to get this locker room back together. Trade a 7th rounder to the Steelers for Ryan Clark so Sean Taylor will play again. Trade our 1st rounder and Lloyd to the Giants for Pierce and start playing a 3-4. Give TJ Duckett bus fare. Deport Jerry Gray and Dale Lindsey for treason. That's a start.

And you thought our front office was the laughing stock of the league now! Trading away the draft to get back players we let walk for next to nothing would be the ultimate damnation of our personel department. Besides, the Steelers wouldn't give up Clark for a 7th, Pierce isn't worth the #6 pick, and Royal is under contract.

[BurgundyNGold]

Then you flip out about expressing discontent. Your posts have nothing at all to do with the theme of mine or shally's or H2S's. And I don't see a single excuse in any of my posts. I criticize the sissification of the offseason training camp, preseason, and OTA's and it's effect on the defense, and I applaud the offense for the steps they've taken, the progress they've made, and the talent they have heading into the future. Next time I have positive thoughts about something Skins related I'll keep them to myself if it makes you happy and the next time I critique the defense in any other way than Greg Williams is an arrogant prick who wronged Lavar and Arch I'll shut my trap
I have no problem with positive thoughts, only that you belittle those who do not harbor the same apologist sentiments that you do for pretty much everything the FO does.

As for my comments about the "doom and gloom" atmosphere: do you deny that this is the prevailing sentiment in the media, on message boards, and in other media outlets? It's the way it is right now, there was even a post on this board mentioning the loss of Jesse Armstead as a failing of the defense. A national tragedy: there are more pages in the wash post right now about the failings of the Duckett trade than about Ethiopia and Somalia.
Ethiopia and Somalia. Yeah, right. That's EXACTLY what you meant. Give me a break. You make offhand comments like this outside of main topic threads, who knows why, just to get your little digs in. Normally I just let them go. Yesterday, I decided to call you on lambasting people who try to hold the FO acountable for personnel decisions.

You just keep feeding that BS about how this is about Somalia or whatever. Next time, make a dig about Somalia, not a backhanded comment about people who think differently than you.

Sorry I decided to post something about a topic other than Vin Cerrato. Don't request reinforcements, Alexios.
If you had left your feelings about the people who think differently than you on the personnel record in the thread that was actually about Vinny, we wouldn't be having this conversation over here. Try to keep it in check.

And try to avoid the obscure references. That one wasn't very good. As for reinforcements, who needs them with you? I'm still waiting on you to get out your handy dandy software in the screen capture you posted to substantiate your convoluted position from 2 weeks ago.

[danny's stogie]

I have no problem with positive thoughts, only that you belittle those who do not harbor the same apologist sentiments that you do for pretty much everything the FO does.

And you don't belittle others? lmao. I didn't belittle anyone in those posts, period. If you think I did you're reading too much into it. If you think the posts were about you then you're narcisistic.

Read other posts of mine. I'm not overly apologistic about the FO, the coaching staff, or about any player on the team, you choose to think that I'm a complete apologist because I dare disagree with the premise of one of your arguments. You're just ticked because someone took you to task about your little pet project, that I think it's ridiculous to use late round drafting as criteria to judge the FO, and that I pointed out several justified reasons why this may be. As far as I'm concerned you still haven't proven to anyone via your analysis that late round drafting is anything more than luck and that actually retaining late round picks has any bearing on team success. All you've shown is that the Skins have retained less late round picks than the average team, big frickin whoop, there isn't a poster here that doesn't know this.

Ethiopia and Somalia. Yeah, right. That's EXACTLY what you meant. Give me a break. You make offhand comments like this outside of main topic threads, who knows why, just to get your little digs in. Normally I just let them go. Yesterday, I decided to call you on lambasting people who try to hold the FO acountable for personnel decisions.

You just keep feeding that BS about how this is about Somalia or whatever. Next time, make a dig about Somalia, not a backhanded comment about people who think differently than you.

Originally Posted by danny's stogie
As for my comments about the "doom and gloom" atmosphere: do you deny that this is the prevailing sentiment in the media, on message boards, and in other media outlets? It's the way it is right now, there was even a post on this board mentioning the loss of Jesse Armstead as a failing of the defense. A national tragedy: there are more pages in the wash post right now about the failings of the Duckett trade than about Ethiopia and Somalia.

Don't ignore the bolded this time. It was a comment about the prevailing mood right now and sifting through it to see there's some light at the end of the tunnel, nothing more, no belittling. There are currently 5 pages of washington post internet content showing how awful the Lloyd and Duckett trades were. The normal front page story get no more than two. The Ford eulogy has several few page stories. The gravity of these moves are blown out of proportion when the Skins have more pressing concerns than TJ Duckett.

If you had left your feelings about the people who think differently than you on the personnel record in the thread that was actually about Vinny, we wouldn't be having this conversation over here. Try to keep it in check.

Huh? You're telling me to keep it in check, lol. My posts actually pertained to a discussion in this thread. Your little tirade pretends as if I'm talking about Vinny when it's clear as day that I'm talking with shally about the ability to turn it around quickly in the NFL.

And try to avoid the obscure references. That one wasn't very good. As for reinforcements, who needs them with you? I'm still waiting on you to get out your handy dandy software in the screen capture you posted to substantiate your convoluted position from 2 weeks ago.

Don't tell me what to do, you don't like the reference, ts, I'm not the one with the crusade.

My point wasn't convoluted, several posters commented on it and agreed that other factors may have a role in determining retention rates, you on the other hand refuse to acknowledge my point, because, well, I have no frickin' clue why. Sorry if it was lost on you or if you only understand basic statistical analysis when it serves your argument.

I'm allowed to comment on the flaws in your logic without actually doing the analysis (I said this in the other thread, just another thing you choose to ignore). If I cared to prove the point either way I'd do it myself, but I prefer to judge the Skins FO on other criteria because in my opinion Chris Canty and Manuel White ain't crap in the long run. You, on the other hand, want to use selective statistics to prove a point about Vinny's ineptitude, thus the burden of proof is on you my friend. What's pathetic is that I even showed and explained to you how to account for any other factors that explain retention, basically giving you all the ammunition you need to prove your point, and instead of discussing the methodology you spout off about me being a Vinny apologist when you damn well know I never once defended him, only questioned the meaning of your results and the logic of your argument that the Skins kept less second day picks than the average team therefore Vinny must suck. But this might be the reason why I stopped participating in that thread, was willing to walk away and give you the last word, (other than that it was during the middle of my comprehensive exams and it a was waste of time) because it gets extremely boring for me to continue saying the same thing repeatedly -- that other factors may contribute to retention rates, if you want to control for them, here's how -- only to be called a Vinny apologist in different ways each time.

If you want to be constructive, fine, I'll chat, but there's no point in me continuing to argue with someone whose agenda makes them obstinate. I might as well find skinswin and debate Ramsey, at least he's good for a laugh.

[RedskinRyan]

some fine points have been brought up, but we cant forget that its more than just "do this, and that will happen'. with contracts, too much fine print. plus not every team is going to be willing to take the cap hit to trade a player.

of course nothing is gonna change. it hasnt yet, and it probably wont for awhile either.

[smoak]

I'm of the opinion that Gibbs had a lot to do with the change in the offense. Not calling the plays but setting the direction.

I agree, and my guess is that it was done in private with a lot of class and authorita.

[openallnight]

While our short comings this season have been numerous the most glaring deficiency has been 12 takeaways. That's 47% fewer than the next worse team in the entire NFL!

I would make improving this stat by at least 100% the highest priority for next season. Some suggestions:
1. Get some pass rushers at DE and OLB!
2. Daily ball stripping drills.
3. Daily tip drills.
4. Daily sessions on the Jugs machine for all our DBs and LBs. CR should have his own personal machine installed in his backyard!!!
5. Levy penalties for dropped balls. Within league rules of course ;)
6. Give incentives for forced turnovers and takeaways.

[BurgundyNGold]

And you don't belittle others? lmao. I didn't belittle anyone in those posts, period. If you think I did you're reading too much into it. If you think the posts were about you then you're narcisistic.
We'll see. If you continue the off handed remarks about people who think differently than you about the FO then it will be proven that you are the one with the issue because you won't let go, not me and others. If you cease to make your little snide remarks about those who see fault in our FO and personnel follies, then I won't have to see them anymore. Either way, I'm happy.

Read other posts of mine. I'm not overly apologistic about the FO, the coaching staff, or about any player on the team, you choose to think that I'm a complete apologist because I dare disagree with the premise of one of your arguments. You're just ticked because someone took you to task about your little pet project, that I think it's ridiculous to use late round drafting as criteria to judge the FO, and that I pointed out several justified reasons why this may be. As far as I'm concerned you still haven't proven to anyone via your analysis that late round drafting is anything more than luck and that actually retaining late round picks has any bearing on team success. All you've shown is that the Skins have retained less late round picks than the average team, big frickin whoop, there isn't a poster here that doesn't know this.
I can't believe you think you're so smart when I have to tell you 10 times that it's about retention of those players on ANY roster in the NFL -- not just the Redskins. This isn't politics, true to focus on the truth.

What's equally laughable is that you believe that you discredited anything. You posted a screen cap of some math software, a nebulous formula -- with no actual proof attached -- and then proceeded to run off and hide for a week when I called you on your obvious attempt to make yourself look smarter than you are to try and bolster an argument that essentially boils down to "I don't agree with you". I did the work and put some the rsoter numbers together over 5 years. You poo-poo'd the concept as too elementary to be accurate, yet it seems that you still don't understand the basic premise yourself, since you keep saying it's about "Redskins draft retention". When I challenged you in that thread to produce the goods, you dropped out of the thread, went missing for a few days (I was hoping you were working the numbers) and then came back as if nothing had happened, save the occasional snide remark about people on the other side of that argument. And now you're the little engine that could? LMAO. Stop watching Rocky.

The challenge is still on the table. Use your John Nash-like abilities and put together your proof and then come back and educate the posters here as to why your solution is better than the one I proposed. That is what debate is all about and I'm willing to do that. It is NOT, however, about pissing on somebody's substantiated position, making excuses when challenged to substantiate your own position, mischaracterizing the argument in an attempt to reframe the debate, kicking and screaming like a child when pressed about it and, finally, implying that the person on the other side of the debate is not smart enough to comprehend what you don't bring back to the table. That kind of elitist BS doesn't fly.

Until you have something to show the rest of us to substantiate why your numbers would be better than the actual numbers of what happened, you can stand in line with the rest of the internet windbags with a blank resume.

Don't ignore the bolded this time. It was a comment about the prevailing mood right now and sifting through it to see there's some light at the end of the tunnel, nothing more, no belittling. There are currently 5 pages of washington post internet content showing how awful the Lloyd and Duckett trades were. The normal front page story get no more than two. The Ford eulogy has several few page stories. The gravity of these moves are blown out of proportion when the Skins have more pressing concerns than TJ Duckett.
That was an end of season expose and I think a damned good one. Only a hopeless homer would see it as gloom and doom in and of itself. It was good reporting and they had the class to wait unti the seasion ended to release it -- in stark contrast to what Mike Wise and Sally Jenkins did last year.

And if you expect anyone to buy that your little dig was anything other than just that, then you have issues. It's okay to delude yourself, but don't think that many other people are buying it with Akh's confederate money.

Huh? You're telling me to keep it in check, lol. My posts actually pertained to a discussion in this thread. Your little tirade pretends as if I'm talking about Vinny when it's clear as day that I'm talking with shally about the ability to turn it around quickly in the NFL.
There's no tirade here. You belittled the opinions of those who think differently of you. Not a big deal, if you're willing to let it go. As I said, usually I do. That day I didn't.

And I didn't start with likning people to Byzantine emperors or telling people to get a grip. I characterized your perspectives as Pollyannish. I think that's a fair assement.

Don't tell me what to do, you don't like the reference, ts, I'm not the one with the crusade.
Like you bring up Constantine references every day. LMAO. Next time post a screen capture of your math software, lol. You employing non sequiturs into your arguments to try and make you or your argument look smarter is getting to be pretty transparent. Almost to the point of being painful to the reader. I think substantiating your position with fact would serve much better.

Or, perhaps you should scream louder. It might make people forget that you took a swipe at them. If that doesn't work, maybe you'll seem smarter. It works for Stephen A. Smith, so why not you?
My point wasn't convoluted, several posters commented on it and agreed that other factors may have a role in determining retention rates, you on the other hand refuse to acknowledge my point, because, well, I have no frickin' clue why. Sorry if it was lost on you or if you only understand basic statistical analysis when it serves your argument.
Oh, so only the intellectually superior, like yourself, can understand a grey cloud of excuses? I didn't dismiss your point because I didn't understand the concept. I dismissed it because when asked to back it up with numbers -- like I did my position -- you would only replu with more attacks on the data, mischaracterizations of the arguments and a plethora of reasons why you couldn't or wouldn't substantiate your own claims. After that bit of tap dancing you did, any reasonable soul would conclude that you've got nothing in your quiver but disdain for the opposing argument. And still, in other threads, you assail those who do the work. How pathetic.

I'm allowed to comment on the flaws in your logic without actually doing the analysis (I said this in the other thread, just another thing you choose to ignore). If I cared to prove the point either way I'd do it myself, but I prefer to judge the Skins FO on other criteria because in my opinion Chris Canty and Manuel White ain't crap in the long run. You, on the other hand, want to use selective statistics to prove a point about Vinny's ineptitude, thus the burden of proof is on you my friend. What's pathetic is that I even showed and explained to you how to account for any other factors that explain retention, basically giving you all the ammunition you need to prove your point, and instead of discussing the methodology you spout off about me being a Vinny apologist when you damn well know I never once defended him, only questioned the meaning of your results and the logic of your argument that the Skins kept less second day picks than the average team therefore Vinny must suck. But this might be the reason why I stopped participating in that thread, was willing to walk away and give you the last word, (other than that it was during the middle of my comprehensive exams and it a was waste of time) because it gets extremely boring for me to continue saying the same thing repeatedly -- that other factors may contribute to retention rates, if you want to control for them, here's how -- only to be called a Vinny apologist in different ways each time.
Selective statistics? How does going back and compiling the status of EVERY draft for EVERY team in the last 5 years and working out a retention percentage that applies to every team equally "selective"? Every team was rated equally and the Redskins FO was found to be just about Houston in futility. No, you claim that it is selective because you have no other argument. You cannot win the argument based on the merit of the facts to, just as in the other thread, you endeavor to obfuscate reality and inject falsehoods. Keep it up. People read these posts and your credibility probably can't get much worse.

And how, exactly, is posting equations without application helpful? How is posting a screen capture of math software that you purportedly use helpful? the answer is that those things are only helpful to your own ego, not to the discussion at hand.

If you want to be constructive, fine, I'll chat, but there's no point in me continuing to argue with someone whose agenda makes them obstinate. I might as well find skinswin and debate Ramsey, at least he's good for a laugh.
Very clever, likening me to those guys. Well played.

You have the chance to use that software of yours -- or a pencil if you're old school -- and your finance background to produce something more than the stuff you posted that I personally think you dug up over at Wikipedia on the fly. Until then, get in line with the New Agers the Creationists and the internet wind bags who do nothing but talk and try not to take off thread swipes at the people who skin you up.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a squash game with COUNCILMAN. :rolleyes:

[Keino]

I guess my only question is why you guys aren't having this discussion in the thread about 2nd day draft picks? There seems to be a ton of bitterness about that thread that has seeped into other topics.

[smoak]

Wow, when did the original debate take place? When it was on topic I bet it was even more interesting. :D

[shally]

While our short comings this season have been numerous the most glaring deficiency has been 12 takeaways. That's 47% fewer than the next worse team in the entire NFL!

I would make improving this stat by at least 100% the highest priority for next season. Some suggestions:
1. Get some pass rushers at DE and OLB!
2. Daily ball stripping drills.
3. Daily tip drills.
4. Daily sessions on the Jugs machine for all our DBs and LBs. CR should have his own personal machine installed in his backyard!!!
5. Levy penalties for dropped balls. Within league rules of course ;)
6. Give incentives for forced turnovers and takeaways.

not gonna happen unless GW changes his def overall plan.. stopping the run first does not put pressure onthe qb.. that is where turnovers come from-- getting heat onthe qb.
get a premium def line and the turnovers will start..
still, i have no clue what to do with the stone hands our db's have...

[BurgundyNGold]

I guess my only question is why you guys aren't having this discussion in the thread about 2nd day draft picks? There seems to be a ton of bitterness about that thread that has seeped into other topics.
I thought the thread was dead, but the sentiment apparently lives on. If he's going to make snide comments he should expect to get called by people who take offense at them.

But, we can go back into that thread and discuss it. Just as soon as DS clears his calendar of some of his Mensa commitments and introduces a counter study to the one that I did that accomodates some, or any of the variables that he feels invalidates the rather black and white numbers supplied by reality, sans interpretation. Until then, I don't see how he has the gall to make wise arse comments about anyone who has a differing, substantiated opinion on our FO and personel track record, whether that person be Jason La Canfora or someone on this board.

[danny's stogie]

I thought the thread was dead, but the sentiment apparently lives on. If he's going to make snide comments he should expect to get called by people who take offense at them.

But, we can go back into that thread and discuss it. Just as soon as DS clears his calendar of some of his Mensa commitments and introduces a counter study to the one that I did that accomodates some, or any of the variables that he feels invalidates the rather black and white numbers supplied by reality, sans interpretation. Until then, I don't see how he has the gall to make wise arse comments about anyone who has a differing, substantiated opinion on our FO and personel track record, whether that person be Jason La Canfora or someone on this board.

I let it go a long, long time ago. If I'm going to make snide comments I say them directly, narcissist. Next time I call you out for trying obfuscate a straightfoward post about quick turn around in the NFL into a BS attempt to rehash an old debate do us all a favor and go lurk in the shadows for another month waiting for me to say something you can use to bring a dead horse back to life, egotist, directly said.

I guess my only question is why you guys aren't having this discussion in the thread about 2nd day draft picks? There seems to be a ton of bitterness about that thread that has seeped into other topics.

I wasn't bitter until a normal conversation of mine gets interupted by someone who's rehashing of an old debate indicates a whole month stewing over my unwillingness to except his argument as fact.

[WarEagle]

How does Gibbs "fix" the Skins?

I wish Coach would hire younger assistant coaches. The coaching staff is too old. We need some young screamers at practice to ensure the fundamentals, mentioned in a previous post, are taken care of.

[Keino]

I thought the thread was dead, but the sentiment apparently lives on. If he's going to make snide comments he should expect to get called by people who take offense at them.

But, we can go back into that thread and discuss it. Just as soon as DS clears his calendar of some of his Mensa commitments and introduces a counter study to the one that I did that accomodates some, or any of the variables that he feels invalidates the rather black and white numbers supplied by reality, sans interpretation. Until then, I don't see how he has the gall to make wise arse comments about anyone who has a differing, substantiated opinion on our FO and personel track record, whether that person be Jason La Canfora or someone on this board.

So it was the National Tragedy comment that set you off? I really don't think DS was directing that at you and I think that taking offense to that pretty general and fairly benign comment was a bit extreme.


I wasn't bitter until a normal conversation of mine gets interupted by someone who's rehashing of an old debate indicates a whole month stewing over my unwillingness to except his argument as fact.

In fairness, you did indicate in that debate that you would rejoin it when things at your job/life settled down and post a more detailed analysis refuting what BNG posted. It is not unreasonable for him to expect you to do just that.

I think it would make for better reading than the personal swipes you two keep taking at each other, personally. From what I remember about the compilation that BNG put together there were some pretty consistantly good teams that ranked right around where the Redskins did in terms of 2nd draftee retention (league-wide) in addition to the Houstons of the world.

[NamVet4]

I think it would make for better reading than the personal swipes you two keep taking at each other, personally.
Thanks for posting that cogent remark, Sean.
That's why I don't post much here anymore. This worthwhile topic got bushwhacked, hijacked and sidetracked. I understand the pain this season evokes, but civility should not be another casualty.

[Keino]

Thanks for posting that cogent remark, Sean.
That's why I don't post much here anymore. This worthwhile topic got bushwhacked, hijacked and sidetracked. I understand the pain this season evokes, but civility should not be another casualty.

Im sorry you aren't around as much Andrew. I really miss the perspective and clarity that you often provided in your posts.

[dj_stouty]

Popcorn anyone?

http://www.plumparty.com/Merchant2/graphics/products/large/22POPC1.jpg

[dj_stouty]

Thanks for posting that cogent remark, Sean.
That's why I don't post much here anymore. This worthwhile topic got bushwhacked, hijacked and sidetracked. I understand the pain this season evokes, but civility should not be another casualty.

Another hit and run by NamVet. :rolleyes:

[hail2skins]

This thread has been hijacked enough. You can continue your debate but do it in the appropriate thread.

[GWBlitzST]

I think we should draft Calvin Johnson. I know it's the last thing it seems like we need, but he's the only player in the draft who will have an opportunity to play before game 8 next year.

[dj_stouty]

I think we should draft Calvin Johnson. I know it's the last thing it seems like we need, but he's the only player in the draft who will have an opportunity to play before game 8 next year.

You are right...it isn't a need, and the current WR corp costs a fortune.

Even if the Redskins were to depart with Lloyd...I have confidence that ARE could be a respectable #2. He was the starter the last few games and really stepped up his play.

I wouldn't draft Calvin soley because he can start right away.

[danny's stogie]

Sorry folks for being an enabler. I've set up a new thread to settle/rehash old debates in: http://hailredskins.com/vbforum/showthread.php?p=895535#post895535

[GWBlitzST]

You are right...it isn't a need, and the current WR corp costs a fortune.

Even if the Redskins were to depart with Lloyd...I have confidence that ARE could be a respectable #2. He was the starter the last few games and really stepped up his play.

I wouldn't draft Calvin soley because he can start right away.Im not even saying he would start right away. But he might PLAY, which is more than what we get from GWs draft picks. Plus, he would be a big target for Campbell, which is something I think he needs desperately. Of course I want a player that could come in and help our D get back on track, but history has shown that we're probably going to rely on more "experienced" players when it comes to defense. Calvin Johnson is the real deal, and if ARE or Moss gets hurt, what then? I just think he would make a more immediate impact.

[dj_stouty]

Calvin Johnson is the real deal, and if ARE or Moss gets hurt, what then? I just think he would make a more immediate impact.

Yes...but the WR position isn't very prone to early success in their rookie season. Over the past three seasons, only Michael Clayton (Bucs) and Marques Colston (Saints) have had 1,000-yard rookie seasons. And that is saying a lot since those three draft classes included blue chippers such as Roy Williams, Larry Fitzgerald, Braylon Edwards, Troy Williamson, Mike Williams, and Santonio Holmes.

Plus, we pointed out in a different thread that GW had Golston rotating at DT as early as the week 1 game against the Vikings. I think GW only holds back his rookie d-backs and LBs.

[CNYSkinFan]

Im not even saying he would start right away. But he might PLAY, which is more than what we get from GWs draft picks. Plus, he would be a big target for Campbell, which is something I think he needs desperately. Of course I want a player that could come in and help our D get back on track, but history has shown that we're probably going to rely on more "experienced" players when it comes to defense. Calvin Johnson is the real deal, and if ARE or Moss gets hurt, what then? I just think he would make a more immediate impact.
If we take a WR in the first round when it is obvious our defense is swiss cheese I might break my foot as I oput it through my tv and plow it into the wall behind it. For my foot's sake plese don't pick a WR.

[Dolla Bill]

Yes...but the WR position isn't very prone to early success in their rookie season. Over the past three seasons, only Michael Clayton (Bucs) and Marques Colston (Saints) have had 1,000-yard rookie seasons. And that is saying a lot since those three draft classes included blue chippers such as Roy Williams, Larry Fitzgerald, Braylon Edwards, Troy Williamson, Mike Williams, and Santonio Holmes.

Plus, we pointed out in a different thread that GW had Golston rotating at DT as early as the week 1 game against the Vikings. I think GW only holds back his rookie d-backs and LBs.


To be honest, DL is not as complicated as LB or DB. I have played LB and DL, so there is a dramatic learning curve.

[dj_stouty]

To be honest, DL is not as complicated as LB or DB. I have played LB and DL, so there is a dramatic learning curve.

I agree...especially if you are a pass rushing DE. That job has a fairly simple job description. Kill the QB.

[BurgundyNGold]

I let it go a long, long time ago. If I'm going to make snide comments I say them directly, narcissist. Next time I call you out for trying obfuscate a straightfoward post about quick turn around in the NFL into a BS attempt to rehash an old debate do us all a favor and go lurk in the shadows for another month waiting for me to say something you can use to bring a dead horse back to life, egotist, directly said.
You insulted a whole group of people who didn't agree with you. Now, when you're confronted aqbout it, rather than acknowledge that you are still harboring resentment, you call me a name.

And it's truly classic how you post screen captures of some math software that you purport to use to make you seem like an expert on the topic, but I'm the one wirth the ego problem.

Tell you what. Apologize to everyone else BUT me for belittling their opinions and I'll drop it. This isn't about just me. It wasn't when you made your shadowy slight of posters who disagree with you and it isn't now.

I wasn't bitter until a normal conversation of mine gets interupted by someone who's rehashing of an old debate indicates a whole month stewing over my unwillingness to except his argument as fact.
I'm not "stewing" about anything. You are the one who likes to drop venomous little digs about people who happen to disagree with you all over the board. This isn't the first time I've seen you do this, only the first time I called you on it. Continue to do it and don't be surprised if it happens again.

And I'm not bitter about anything. Quite the contrary. It's rather entertaining to watch you grasp at any peripheral issue you can to avoid conceding a point, whether in another thread or this one. You bring up a Byzantine emperor, Gerald Ford and Somalia all in the same thread and you can't understand how your points are summarily dismissed. I think that means that you should go declare victory now, lol.

[BurgundyNGold]

This thread has been hijacked enough. You can continue your debate but do it in the appropriate thread.
Yeah, you're right. I'll bump the other thread so that DS can dazzle us with his findings.

[BurgundyNGold]

To get back OT, I really don't think that there is very much more that Gibbs can do right now. I think he has paddel out, picked his wave and now he's waiting for it to crest. Actually, to be more accurate in the analogy, he picked a wave, rode it for a bit, pulled off, and caught another one. We'll just have to see it plays out. I don't see them curtailing their aggressive FA approach anytime soon, so I think they're just going to have to focus on getting targeted people and focus on team chemistry. Consistently, it's the teams that have been together for a few years who take it deep into the playoffs.

[American Soldier]

This is a little off subject, but I have some.......

***BREAKING NEWS***

Mark this post.....

To all Redskins fans who shall see this, be patient. In two years this team will see another turnover. This time Cowhar comes out of retirement and joins the 2009 Redskins as head coach. He needs to get paid after all these years in Pittsburgh and where else than here. Not to mention he would be the best coach after Joe leaves to bring football back to Washington

Until then, the marketing carousel (with FA signings etc) and the losing will be perpetual. Maybe not the 5-11 of this year, but Joe can only do so much. After Joe's first year he spoke of re-evaluating everything. Heck like an old man I know says..."Ya Study long, Ya study wrong". Just win.
I've never said this before, but I feel sorry for Dan Snyder. The fact is he is a Redskins fan. I remember him leaping for joy when Moss made the miracle reception in Dallas last year. Everyone here has to admit that it was like euphoria when he introduced Joe Gibbs as the new coach back then. I would venture to say that most felt great about Spurrier initially. Maybe Dan really does try to win more so than marketing. The problem is, in his drive to win he does not get the concept of building over time. He's a dot.com millionaire; a get rich quick guy. The Cooks and the Rooneys realize the concept I speak of. We fans realize it, even though we too get caught up in April with the splash signings. Unfortunately the players are the ones that suffer from the so called splash signings. Every year a player says that they “need to play together a little more to get in synch”. If Snyder would just get a little older faster, he’d become a little more patient. Only then will the Redskins be the dynasty that we all want to enjoy as fans (diehard or fair-weather). Is there any other coach that you’d want to take you there other than Cowhar? Joe is only here to get us stabilized. GW and Al have proven to be strictly coordinators. The head coach has got to be a motivator. Be patient, 2009 will be here before you know it.

[dj_stouty]

***BREAKING RUMOR***


Fixed

[RedskinsDave]

It's Cowher. He won't be here. Snyder is not a dot com millionaire. He's had 7 years to learn and has not. A few more years won't change that.

Corrected.

[BurgundyNGold]

This is a little off subject, but I have some.......

***BREAKING NEWS***

Mark this post.....

To all Redskins fans who shall see this, be patient. In two years this team will see another turnover. This time Cowhar comes out of retirement and joins the 2009 Redskins as head coach. He needs to get paid after all these years in Pittsburgh and where else than here. Not to mention he would be the best coach after Joe leaves to bring football back to Washington

Until then, the marketing carousel (with FA signings etc) and the losing will be perpetual. Maybe not the 5-11 of this year, but Joe can only do so much. After Joe's first year he spoke of re-evaluating everything. Heck like an old man I know says..."Ya Study long, Ya study wrong". Just win.
I've never said this before, but I feel sorry for Dan Snyder. The fact is he is a Redskins fan. I remember him leaping for joy when Moss made the miracle reception in Dallas last year. Everyone here has to admit that it was like euphoria when he introduced Joe Gibbs as the new coach back then. I would venture to say that most felt great about Spurrier initially. Maybe Dan really does try to win more so than marketing. The problem is, in his drive to win he does not get the concept of building over time. He's a dot.com millionaire; a get rich quick guy. The Cooks and the Rooneys realize the concept I speak of. We fans realize it, even though we too get caught up in April with the splash signings. Unfortunately the players are the ones that suffer from the so called splash signings. Every year a player says that they “need to play together a little more to get in synch”. If Snyder would just get a little older faster, he’d become a little more patient. Only then will the Redskins be the dynasty that we all want to enjoy as fans (diehard or fair-weather). Is there any other coach that you’d want to take you there other than Cowhar? Joe is only here to get us stabilized. GW and Al have proven to be strictly coordinators. The head coach has got to be a motivator. Be patient, 2009 will be here before you know it.
I don't feel sorry for Snyder. He needs to take his stratera and everything will start to come into focus for him.

[akhhorus]

***BREAKING RUMOR***Fixed

How exactly is it breaking if it won't happen for 2 years? Shouldn't it be:

***EVENTUAL or FOR THE FUTURE RUMOR***?

[dj_stouty]

How exactly is it breaking if it won't happen for 2 years? Shouldn't it be:

***EVENTUAL or FOR THE FUTURE RUMOR***?

Mark down this post!

****Breaking Snooze***

American Soldier will not come back to HR in 2008 and admit he was wrong.

[shally]

This is a little off subject, but I have some.......

***BREAKING NEWS***

Mark this post.....

To all Redskins fans who shall see this, be patient. In two years this team will see another turnover. This time Cowhar comes out of retirement and joins the 2009 Redskins as head coach. He needs to get paid after all these years in Pittsburgh and where else than here. Not to mention he would be the best coach after Joe leaves to bring football back to Washington

Until then, the marketing carousel (with FA signings etc) and the losing will be perpetual. Maybe not the 5-11 of this year, but Joe can only do so much. After Joe's first year he spoke of re-evaluating everything. Heck like an old man I know says..."Ya Study long, Ya study wrong". Just win.
I've never said this before, but I feel sorry for Dan Snyder. The fact is he is a Redskins fan. I remember him leaping for joy when Moss made the miracle reception in Dallas last year. Everyone here has to admit that it was like euphoria when he introduced Joe Gibbs as the new coach back then. I would venture to say that most felt great about Spurrier initially. Maybe Dan really does try to win more so than marketing. The problem is, in his drive to win he does not get the concept of building over time. He's a dot.com millionaire; a get rich quick guy. The Cooks and the Rooneys realize the concept I speak of. We fans realize it, even though we too get caught up in April with the splash signings. Unfortunately the players are the ones that suffer from the so called splash signings. Every year a player says that they “need to play together a little more to get in synch”. If Snyder would just get a little older faster, he’d become a little more patient. Only then will the Redskins be the dynasty that we all want to enjoy as fans (diehard or fair-weather). Is there any other coach that you’d want to take you there other than Cowhar? Joe is only here to get us stabilized. GW and Al have proven to be strictly coordinators. The head coach has got to be a motivator. Be patient, 2009 will be here before you know it.

how was cooke patient ??

[akhhorus]

Mark down this post!

****Breaking Snooze***

American Soldier will not come back to HR in 2008 and admit he was wrong.

I have a feeling that he'll edit the post he made here and then quote it and claim he was right. The funniest will be that he'll think no one can catch him on that.

[dj_stouty]

I have a feeling that he'll edit the post he made here and then quote it and claim he was right. The funniest will be that he'll think no one can catch him on that.

Either that or he will create a new account and come back as a different alias and pretend nothing happened.

[American Soldier]

No need to change it. Just mark it.

It was simply a prediction. Unfortunately, some of the other holier than thou members here seem to think that their opinions, views/threads are the only ones exceptable.

By the way, only someone that has changed their username in the past would even think of such a thing. I stand on my posts. Maybe not as emotional as some, but why change to be popular. Why worry about being right. Some of you guys need to get over yourselves and realize that not one post here will make or break the Redskins and I don't need to change my username to type that!!

There was an untyped question in the original thread if you weren't so focused on the postee. Would you like Bill Cowher as a coach? Joe Gibbs will not be here forever and if next year is not the year, he already said he wouldn't be back. Now, you can answer the question or you don't have to. It's no big deal. Really. If all remains the same, you'll probably post "Who knows if Cowher even come back".
:banghead:

[American Soldier]

how was cooke patient ??


How was he not?

[shally]

How was he not?

the skins used exactly the same kind of technique the first time gibbs was around.. traded off first round picks. signed free agents..

the difference was that gibbs won a superbowl in his second year as coach..

but cooke was not involved in any phase of player or coach aquisition after gibbs was named HC.. he was content to stay up in his box and hobnob with celebrities.. he was a hands off owner except in the rare instances where gibbs and the GM (beathard) could not agree on something..

how does that make him patient ?

[American Soldier]

the skins used exactly the same kind of technique the first time gibbs was around.. traded off first round picks. signed free agents..

the difference was that gibbs won a superbowl in his second year as coach..

but cooke was not involved in any phase of player or coach aquisition after gibbs was named HC.. he was content to stay up in his box and hobnob with celebrities.. he was a hands off owner except in the rare instances where gibbs and the GM (beathard) could not agree on something..

how does that make him patient ?

Based on your perspective, I guess I can't say he was "patient". I guess I'd just compare his patience to Snyders although I must admit Snyder has experienced much more losing early on than Cooke. Cooke owned this baby 24years. That had to account for something by way of patience. There surely wasn't as much termoil and coach firing as it is now.

[dukeuch]

No need to change it. Just mark it.

It was simply a prediction. Unfortunately, some of the other holier than thou members here seem to think that their opinions, views/threads are the only ones exceptable.

By the way, only someone that has changed their username in the past would even think of such a thing. I stand on my posts. Maybe not as emotional as some, but why change to be popular. Why worry about being right. Some of you guys need to get over yourselves and realize that not one post here will make or break the Redskins and I don't need to change my username to type that!!

There was an untyped question in the original thread if you weren't so focused on the postee. Would you like Bill Cowher as a coach? Joe Gibbs will not be here forever and if next year is not the year, he already said he wouldn't be back. Now, you can answer the question or you don't have to. It's no big deal. Really. If all remains the same, you'll probably post "Who knows if Cowher even come back".
:banghead:

Hang in there, A.S. Many folks here take Redskins talk very seriously, and do not cozy up to rhetoric, or bombastic predictions in order to stimulate discussion: facts only please! Predictions welcome only if they end with "Redskins win Super Bowl".

I wish all the posts when we announced Gibbs was comming back had a "mark this post" demand attached. I'll venture to guess that the vast majority predidcted at worst 8-8 his first year, followed by playoff appearences every subsequent year, including at least a conference championship appearance by his third. Bring up some of the posts after last year's FA signings, and you'll find happy fans talking about having three "#1 type" WRs, Arch delivering bone crunching hits, etc, etc, etc.

I get your point; three years into the Gibbs/Snyder combo, we have not made much progress (although in another thread some aregue that we have, despite this year's 5-11 record).

[GWBlitzST]

I dont want Cowher as coach. He annoys me. And he would have never won a Super Bowl if it hadn't been completely rigged. He should have lost to the Colts the game before, too, but somehow Vanderjagt missed a field goal by 30 yards. He just yells a lot, that's the only reason people like him. Id rather have Russ Grimm as our coach than Cowher.

[akhhorus]

Hang in there, A.S. Many folks here take Redskins talk very seriously, and do not cozy up to rhetoric, or bombastic predictions in order to stimulate discussion: facts only please! Predictions welcome only if they end with "Redskins win Super Bowl".

I wish all the posts when we announced Gibbs was comming back had a "mark this post" demand attached. I'll venture to guess that the vast majority predidcted at worst 8-8 his first year, followed by playoff appearences every subsequent year, including at least a conference championship appearance by his third. Bring up some of the posts after last year's FA signings, and you'll find happy fans talking about having three "#1 type" WRs, Arch delivering bone crunching hits, etc, etc, etc.

I get your point; three years into the Gibbs/Snyder combo, we have not made much progress (although in another thread some aregue that we have, despite this year's 5-11 record).

3 years before Gibbs: 20-28, no playoff appearances
3 years with Gibbs: 21-27, 1 playoff appearance, 1 playoff win.
Also, the talent level and progress of the roster are much better now than they were at the end of 2003.
To bolster this argument, I would point out the different starters from now as compared to the end of 2003:
QB: Jason Campbell(06) vs Ramsey(03)
RB: Clinton Portis(06) vs Trung Candidate(03)
WR: Santana Moss, ARE and Lloyd vs Lavernus Coles, Rod Gardner and Darnarian McCants
TE: Chris Cooley vs Zeron Flemister
OC: Rabach vs Lennie Freeman
DE: Andre Carter and Daniels vs. Bruce Smith and Wynn
DT: Griff and Golston vs Darrell Russell and Bernard Holsey
OLB: Rocky and Marcus Washington vs Jesse Armstead and Lavar Love Hewitt
MLB: Marshall vs Trotter
CB: Springs and Rogers vs Champ and Smoot
S: Fox and Taylor vs Ohalete and Bowen
Coach: Gibbs vs Spurrier
I think Gibbs is making progress, despite the record. But I also think that you just revel in complaining. Except when it comes to Betts.

[RedskinsDave]

Hang in there, A.S. Many folks here take Redskins talk very seriously, and do not cozy up to rhetoric, or bombastic predictions in order to stimulate discussion: facts only please! Predictions welcome only if they end with "Redskins win Super Bowl".

Do you have a degree in schmuckitude or does it come to you naturally?

[skins74]

hire a qualified GM to clean this mess up.

[bgforever]

hire a qualified GM to clean this mess up.

Not going to happen, because of the stance Gibbs has taken on this and he really hates to go against his original statements of the status quo working together. If it happens I'd be happy, but the quirk is what he got from Snyder and what Snyder had set up before he arrived. There was no GM when JG arrived and that made it easier to keep it that way.

[dukeuch]

3 years before Gibbs: 20-28, no playoff appearances
3 years with Gibbs: 21-27, 1 playoff appearance, 1 playoff win.
Also, the talent level and progress of the roster are much better now than they were at the end of 2003.
To bolster this argument, I would point out the different starters from now as compared to the end of 2003:
QB: Jason Campbell(06) vs Ramsey(03)
RB: Clinton Portis(06) vs Trung Candidate(03)
WR: Santana Moss, ARE and Lloyd vs Lavernus Coles, Rod Gardner and Darnarian McCants
TE: Chris Cooley vs Zeron Flemister
OC: Rabach vs Lennie Freeman
DE: Andre Carter and Daniels vs. Bruce Smith and Wynn
DT: Griff and Golston vs Darrell Russell and Bernard Holsey
OLB: Rocky and Marcus Washington vs Jesse Armstead and Lavar Love Hewitt
MLB: Marshall vs Trotter
CB: Springs and Rogers vs Champ and Smoot
S: Fox and Taylor vs Ohalete and Bowen
Coach: Gibbs vs Spurrier
I think Gibbs is making progress, despite the record. But I also think that you just revel in complaining. Except when it comes to Betts.

Year before Gibbs: 5-11
Gibbs first year (with Portis instead of Candidate) 6-10
Gibbs current year (with Betts and Portis, and Campbell instead of Ramsey, and all the other better players he has than Spurrier had) 5-11.

I am so glad Gibbs is our coach and not Spurrier. I always thought that toad was a mistake before he coached his first game for the 'Skins. But I don't see a whole lot of progress with the same record that an idiot like Spurrier had with inferior players.

[dukeuch]

Do you have a degree in schmuckitude or does it come to you naturally?

Six years of listening to Bush has crippled your vocabulary :)

[akhhorus]

Year before Gibbs: 5-11
Gibbs first year (with Portis instead of Candidate) 6-10
Gibbs current year (with Betts and Portis, and Campbell instead of Ramsey, and all the other better players he has than Spurrier had) 5-11.

I am so glad Gibbs is our coach and not Spurrier. I always thought that toad was a mistake before he coached his first game for the 'Skins. But I don't see a whole lot of progress with the same record that an idiot like Spurrier had with inferior players.

Hmm...mysteriously you leave out 2005. You're looking to be disappointed and, as usual, using selective fact use to prove to yourself what you want to be true. Gibbs had a terrible season, but this franchise-even right here and now-is better off than it was after 2003.

[dukeuch]

Hmm...mysteriously you leave out 2005. You're looking to be disappointed and, as usual, using selective fact use to prove to yourself what you want to be true. Gibbs had a terrible season, but this franchise-even right here and now-is better off than it was after 2003.

Oh no, I totally give Gibbs credit for that year. I was amazed that we started out 5-6, ended up 10-6, sent out mea culpas (I beleive that was the title of the thread I started) and gave all the credit to Gibss. But you just can't ignore that then we got worse, MUCH worse the next, this most current, year. I just don't think we have made pregress, and right now, I'd have to say 2005 was an anomoly until I see sustained progress.

[FanFromArizona]

3 years before Gibbs: 20-28, no playoff appearances
3 years with Gibbs: 21-27, 1 playoff appearance, 1 playoff win.
Also, the talent level and progress of the roster are much better now than they were at the end of 2003.
To bolster this argument, I would point out the different starters from now as compared to the end of 2003:
QB: Jason Campbell(06) vs Ramsey(03)
RB: Clinton Portis(06) vs Trung Candidate(03)
WR: Santana Moss, ARE and Lloyd vs Lavernus Coles, Rod Gardner and Darnarian McCants
TE: Chris Cooley vs Zeron Flemister
OC: Rabach vs Lennie Freeman
DE: Andre Carter and Daniels vs. Bruce Smith and Wynn
DT: Griff and Golston vs Darrell Russell and Bernard Holsey
OLB: Rocky and Marcus Washington vs Jesse Armstead and Lavar Love Hewitt
MLB: Marshall vs Trotter
CB: Springs and Rogers vs Champ and Smoot
S: Fox and Taylor vs Ohalete and Bowen
Coach: Gibbs vs Spurrier
I think Gibbs is making progress, despite the record. But I also think that you just revel in complaining. Except when it comes to Betts.


Gibbs definitely has upgraded the talent level of the team. The only exceptions in talent might be Trotter vs. Marshall, but our utilization of Trotter when he was here was god awful.

Every other position you list was an upgrade, but I am sure our naysayers will chirp in and tell us look at the (cap price) our upgrades cost/how we mortgaged our future with the loss of draft picks or that JC's real potential has not been realized (he could turn out to be another PRam bust).....:rolleyes:

[akhhorus]

Oh no, I totally give Gibbs credit for that year. I was amazed that we started out 5-6, ended up 10-6, sent out mea culpas (I beleive that was the title of the thread I started) and gave all the credit to Gibss. But you just can't ignore that then we got worse, MUCH worse the next, this most current, year. I just don't think we have made pregress, and right now, I'd have to say 2005 was an anomoly until I see sustained progress.

Ive seen enough progress to think that this season was the outlier. 2004 was the transition year for the skins IMO. Gibbs had to change what, 13 starters from 2003? 2005 was a great year and this year sucked. However, I don't think this year was "showing Gibbs is a failure", I think everything when wrong this year. From scheme confusion on both sides of the ball, to injuries(especially to critical players), to bad luck. We'll see next year. If we add defensive talent, and we're still 5-7 wins with no improvement on either side of the ball, then you might be correct.

[FanFromArizona]

Oh no, I totally give Gibbs credit for that year. I was amazed that we started out 5-6, ended up 10-6, sent out mea culpas (I beleive that was the title of the thread I started) and gave all the credit to Gibss. But you just can't ignore that then we got worse, MUCH worse the next, this most current, year. I just don't think we have made pregress, and right now, I'd have to say 2005 was an anomoly until I see sustained progress.

FACT: Gibbs record entering into this year was 32-32. (CORRECTION: 16-16.) We were 1-1 in the playoffs.

FACT: The ranking of our offense was the highest THIS year in Gibbs' 3 year tenure. We have revamped the offense, gotten younger and are PLAYING with younger players at positions of importance. This will be a unit that will not need much adjustment for years to come, aka no mortgaging the future in FA/ with draft picks).

FACT: The defense is the area that needs to be addressed. Mistakes were made last year and we will not repeat them. Our approach this offseason will address needs. Gibbs will be more involved and will monitor this unit like a hawk.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

FACT: Gibbs record entering into this year was 32-32. We were 1-1 in the playoffs.

FACT: The ranking of our offense was the highest THIS year in Gibbs' 3 year tenure. We have revamped the offense, gotten younger and are PLAYING with younger players at positions of importance. This will be a unit that will not need much adjustment for years to come, aka no mortgaging the future in FA/ with draft picks).

FACT: The defense is the area that needs to be addressed. Mistakes were made last year and we will not repeat them. Our approach this offseason will address needs. Gibbs will be more involved and will monitor this unit like a hawk.
?? Are you sure about that? How can Gibbs have played 64 games in 3 years?

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Ive seen enough progress to think that this season was the outlier. 2004 was the transition year for the skins IMO. Gibbs had to change what, 13 starters from 2003? 2005 was a great year and this year sucked. However, I don't think this year was "showing Gibbs is a failure", I think everything when wrong this year. From scheme confusion on both sides of the ball, to injuries(especially to critical players), to bad luck. We'll see next year. If we add defensive talent, and we're still 5-7 wins with no improvement on either side of the ball, then you might be correct.
I agree with everything you've said in your posts here except that one word. I think last year was great by our standards, which unfortunately in the last 12 or so years have been close to the worst in the NFL, but in general, I think it was a good year, not great.
And I agree that next year has to be MUCH different.

[FanFromArizona]

?? Are you sure about that? How can Gibbs have played 64 games in 3 years?

LOL, My bad. I had 32 in the back of my mind.

Correction: 16-16.

[BurgundyNGold]

Gibbs definitely has upgraded the talent level of the team. The only exceptions in talent might be Trotter vs. Marshall, but our utilization of Trotter when he was here was god awful.

Every other position you list was an upgrade, but I am sure our naysayers will chirp in and tell us look at the (cap price) our upgrades cost/how we mortgaged our future with the loss of draft picks or that JC's real potential has not been realized (he could turn out to be another PRam bust).....:rolleyes:Champ and Smoot were better than Springs and Rogers are too. Aside from that, we've upgraded pretty much everywhere else.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Champ and Smoot were better than Springs and Rogers are too. Aside from that, we've upgraded pretty much everywhere else.
Champ by himself is probably better than Springs and Rogers, especially this year.
But the question remains...if the talent is so much better (and I agree it is) and the record is the same, who's fault is it?

[dukeuch]

Gibbs definitely has upgraded the talent level of the team. The only exceptions in talent might be Trotter vs. Marshall, but our utilization of Trotter when he was here was god awful.

Every other position you list was an upgrade, but I am sure our naysayers will chirp in and tell us look at the (cap price) our upgrades cost/how we mortgaged our future with the loss of draft picks or that JC's real potential has not been realized (he could turn out to be another PRam bust).....:rolleyes:

No, they naysayers will say, why, with all these improvements in talent, ar we 5-11?

[dukeuch]

FACT: Gibbs record entering into this year was 32-32. (CORRECTION: 16-16.) We were 1-1 in the playoffs.

FACT: The ranking of our offense was the highest THIS year in Gibbs' 3 year tenure. We have revamped the offense, gotten younger and are PLAYING with younger players at positions of importance. This will be a unit that will not need much adjustment for years to come, aka no mortgaging the future in FA/ with draft picks).

FACT: The defense is the area that needs to be addressed. Mistakes were made last year and we will not repeat them. Our approach this offseason will address needs. Gibbs will be more involved and will monitor this unit like a hawk.

Fact: Gibbs is doing better than Spurrier, so that might be considered progress.

Fact: Gibbs' record this go around is 21-27, 44% winning percentage. Norv Turner's (one of the most despised Redkins coaches to these readers) record for the Redskins was 49-59-1 (including his first season of 3-13), a 45% winning percentage.

Gibbs is (or at worst was) a better coach than Turner, and he might be able to turn it around, but no, so far I do not see progress when after three years his winning percentage is worse than Turner's.

Fact: I'll say progress has been made when we consistently field a team that is at least .500. In the past three years, we have been unable to do so.

[dukeuch]

Gibbs definitely has upgraded the talent level of the team. The only exceptions in talent might be Trotter vs. Marshall, but our utilization of Trotter when he was here was god awful.

Every other position you list was an upgrade, but I am sure our naysayers will chirp in and tell us look at the (cap price) our upgrades cost/how we mortgaged our future with the loss of draft picks or that JC's real potential has not been realized (he could turn out to be another PRam bust).....:rolleyes:

Just for future reference, when you say "Gibbs" has upgraded the talent, are you of the opinion that Gibbs is responsible for building the roster, acquiring, trading players, etc?

[akhhorus]

Champ by himself is probably better than Springs and Rogers, especially this year.
But the question remains...if the talent is so much better (and I agree it is) and the record is the same, who's fault is it?

The Champ in Washington wasn't. That Champ never showed up for big games or against good teams and didn't look dominating unless Jake Plummer was the QB he was facing.

[Keino]

The Champ in Washington wasn't. That Champ never showed up for big games or against good teams and didn't look dominating unless Jake Plummer was the QB he was facing.

A CB can only be as good as his pass Rush....though for some uncanny reason, Amani Toomer owned Champ.

[akhhorus]

A CB can only be as good as his pass Rush....though for some uncanny reason, Amani Toomer owned Champ.

a good pass rush can make a CB better and a bad one can make one worse. Thats still no excuse for champ to never have picked off a playoff team during his time in DC.

[shally]

The Champ in Washington wasn't. That Champ never showed up for big games or against good teams and didn't look dominating unless Jake Plummer was the QB he was facing.

amen.. and even for denver he seems to come up small in some key games anyway..
not saying i wouldn't mind having him, only that he is not the dominating presence on defense that some like to paint him

[dukeuch]

amen.. and even for denver he seems to come up small in some key games anyway..
not saying i wouldn't mind having him, only that he is not the dominating presence on defense that some like to paint him

Shally:

Now you and I are at odds when talking Redskins? "the some like to paint him to be" are basically his peers in the NFL and coaches around the league. We now more than them? He is one of the leading candidates for NFL Defensive player of the year! The guy plays man-to man while the rest of the Denver secondary plays zone on the other side of the field. HE HAS MORE INTERCEPTIONS THAN OUR ENTIRE TEAM!

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Shally:

Now you and I are at odds when talking Redskins? "the some like to paint him to be" are basically his peers in the NFL and coaches around the league. We now more than them? He is one of the leading candidates for NFL Defensive player of the year! The guy plays man-to man while the rest of the Denver secondary plays zone on the other side of the field. HE HAS MORE INTERCEPTIONS THAN OUR ENTIRE TEAM!
I tend to agree with you here.
And regarding your last statement, on a "mildly" depressing note, so does Walt Harris. Yes, the Walt Harris we cut.

[akhhorus]

Shally:

Now you and I are at odds when talking Redskins? "the some like to paint him to be" are basically his peers in the NFL and coaches around the league. We now more than them? He is one of the leading candidates for NFL Defensive player of the year! The guy plays man-to man while the rest of the Denver secondary plays zone on the other side of the field. HE HAS MORE INTERCEPTIONS THAN OUR ENTIRE TEAM!

We're talking about his time in DC. Champ had a very good 06 and is getting more INTs, but he still disappears in big games in Denver. Coyer has him play totally aggressive no matter what. Which means more INTs for him(especially against bad Qbs), but he still can be beat by a good offense. Cincy showed absolutely no fear of him when they played, even cycling and putting Houzmah-whatever on him with good results.

[dukeuch]

We're talking about his time in DC. Champ had a very good 06 and is getting more INTs, but he still disappears in big games in Denver. Coyer has him play totally aggressive no matter what. Which means more INTs for him(especially against bad Qbs), but he still can be beat by a good offense. Cincy showed absolutely no fear of him when they played, even cycling and putting Houzmah-whatever on him with good results.

Well, playing more aggresivley as directed by his coach not only leads to more INTs, but a greater chance of being burned, so I could argue that's not his fault.

But I will not. The coaches, players, and writers all consider him one of, if not the, premier CB in the NFL. Do they know less than you?

Using the same type of logic you use when you say, "well, he's better now than when he was with the Redskins" I could say Denver fans are relieved they had Portis in his "good years" and now Bailey in his "good years". Best of both worlds.

[Fathead]

Well, playing more aggresivley as directed by his coach not only leads to more INTs, but a greater chance of being burned, so I could argue that's not his fault.

But I will not. The coaches, players, and writers all consider him one of, if not the, premier CB in the NFL. Do they know less than you?

Using the same type of logic you use when you say, "well, he's better now than when he was with the Redskins" I could say Denver fans are relieved they had Portis in his "good years" and now Bailey in his "good years". Best of both worlds.


Don't go trotting out the whole coaches/players/writers crap. They all deify favre who hasn't been good in a while. They all deified Romo for a few good games, now look at him.


Half of Champ's reputation is built on good press, not on performance.

[redskin_rich]

This thread was supposed to be how to fix the Skins, not another whine about this or that thread. Well, I guess people are full of complaints but short on solutions, so maybe it's time to kick this thread to the archives.

[Fathead]

Fix the skins=fix the defense.

And get JC to 55-60% in completion %. With his arm and the types of throws we're asking him to make, that should be the goal.



Simple as that.

[morty55]

amen.. and even for denver he seems to come up small in some key games anyway..
not saying i wouldn't mind having him, only that he is not the dominating presence on defense that some like to paint him

I would like Dan to hire the Ad Agency Champ has working for him to frame his image.

I wonder if like Michelle Wie, if Champ has the William Morris Agency
dictating what we are supposed to think about him?

[akhhorus]

Well, playing more aggresivley as directed by his coach not only leads to more INTs, but a greater chance of being burned, so I could argue that's not his fault.

But I will not.

And yet you said it. :rolleyes:

The coaches, players, and writers all consider him one of, if not the, premier CB in the NFL. Do they know less than you?

Good for them. These are the same people who deified Tony Romo also, right? I don't pay much attention to who the sports writers(or coaches and players who suck up to EVERYONE) slobber over. Like who makes the pro bowl and who doesn't. Portis has gone from Top 3 back in Denver to Top 10 back in DC.

Using the same type of logic you use when you say, "well, he's better now than when he was with the Redskins" I could say Denver fans are relieved they had Portis in his "good years" and now Bailey in his "good years". Best of both worlds.

Shocker, you take another shot at Portis. Did Betts hire you yet as his Press rep? Portis doesn't have the production here he did with the Broncos. HOWEVER, Bailey wasn't nearly the player he's percieved to be in Denver that he was in DC.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Fix the skins=fix the defense.

And get JC to 55-60% in completion %. With his arm and the types of throws we're asking him to make, that should be the goal.



Simple as that.
And if we accomplish those two things and stay relatively healthy, I'll see you in the SB next year.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Here's my 2 cents on Bailey. I think Bailey is probably the best cover corner in the league. The problem is that is not saying much these days. With the way the rules are, the corners are at a big disadvantage. There are too many positive things that can happen in favor of the offense when there is one-on-one coverage. Years ago this was not an issue. I say it all the time, the shut down corner is a thing of the past and unless the rules change, will never be heard from again.

I think Bailey is about as good as he can be in the period he is playing in, so when you compare him with cover corners from other generations, he just doesn't hold up.

[dukeuch]

Don't go trotting out the whole coaches/players/writers crap. They all deify favre who hasn't been good in a while. They all deified Romo for a few good games, now look at him.


Half of Champ's reputation is built on good press, not on performance.

Favre is diefied for his career. Most comments I've heard about him are well, he's not what he used to be and still pretty cagey, able to occasionally look like the young Favre. I agree with you on ROmo, but you are talking about half a year, not the past five seasons.

[dukeuch]

Shocker, you take another shot at Portis. Did Betts hire you yet as his Press rep? Portis doesn't have the production here he did with the Broncos. HOWEVER, Bailey wasn't nearly the player he's percieved to be in Denver that he was in DC.

Imagine that, experience makes you better. Who would have thought it?

No shot at Portis, at least not a shot like you seem to be taking at Bailey.

OK, I dmit it, Redskin fans are much better judges of talent and performance than coaches, players, and the press that covers the league.

[smoak]

Hmm...mysteriously you leave out 2005. You're looking to be disappointed and, as usual, using selective fact use to prove to yourself what you want to be true. Gibbs had a terrible season, but this franchise-even right here and now-is better off than it was after 2003.

I feel like we are better off than any three year period since Gibbs left. Maybe everyone would prefer to rtelive the Turner era. :rolleyes:

[gibbs4pres]

Anyone who thinks we're NOT better off because of the record last year really doesn't understand anything other than surface thoughts. Dig a little deeper and remember the fact that our whole team had NO FUTURE before Gibbs return. Since his return there have been improvements in every aspect of Redskins football, even "The Danny". The Redskins had a rough year this year but I am VERY confident that next years team (players and coaches)won't be that much different than the begining of this year. A few adds on defense but not much I think.
Having to learn a new offense, JC becoming the starting QB and the Defense having the injury bug, any team would have looked bad this year. This is only the begining for us Redskins fans. The best is yet to come! All HAIL!!!!!!!


My guess is there will be ALOT of crow being eaten next year this time.

[akhhorus]

Imagine that, experience makes you better. Who would have thought it?

So, "experience" has made him in what is perceived as the best CB in the game, but this same "experience" has prevented him from stopping him big games chokes?

No shot at Portis, at least not a shot like you seem to be taking at Bailey.

I don't have the recent history of lame and ridiculous shots at Bailey like you do at Portis.

OK, I dmit it, Redskin fans are much better judges of talent and performance than coaches, players, and the press that covers the league.

You mean the same group of people who consider Vick a top QB and have voted him to multiple pro bowls? The same people who have voted Larry Allen into the last few pro bowls when he's as effective as Redd Foxx? The same people who honor players clearly not worth it? And I'll be sure to remind you of this comment when writers and everyone says Portis is better than Betts and you post through tears.

[BurgundyNGold]

You mean the same group of people who consider Vick a top QB and have voted him to multiple pro bowls? The same people who have voted Larry Allen into the last few pro bowls when he's as effective as Redd Foxx? The same people who honor players clearly not worth it? And I'll be sure to remind you of this comment when writers and everyone says Portis is better than Betts and you post through tears.
Not to mention that these writers have not seen fit to put Monk on the HOF yet, but Lofton is. How much could they possibly know?

[dukeuch]

Anyone who thinks we're NOT better off because of the record last year really doesn't understand anything other than surface thoughts. Dig a little deeper and remember the fact that our whole team had NO FUTURE before Gibbs return. Since his return there have been improvements in every aspect of Redskins football, even "The Danny". The Redskins had a rough year this year but I am VERY confident that next years team (players and coaches)won't be that much different than the begining of this year. A few adds on defense but not much I think.
Having to learn a new offense, JC becoming the starting QB and the Defense having the injury bug, any team would have looked bad this year. This is only the begining for us Redskins fans. The best is yet to come! All HAIL!!!!!!!


My guess is there will be ALOT of crow being eaten next year this time.

This post sounds so similar to hundreds I've read over the past 6-7 years, when only those before the 2005 seemed to come true. The'Skins can come around, the question is why haven't they (in a consistent manner) since Snyder took over. Are there really every year circumstances beyond their control, or "who could have forseen it" every one of those years (except 2005), or is it more a systemic problem? I believe the latter.

[dukeuch]

So, "experience" has made him in what is perceived as the best CB in the game, but this same "experience" has prevented him from stopping him big games chokes?



I don't have the recent history of lame and ridiculous shots at Bailey like you do at Portis.



You mean the same group of people who consider Vick a top QB and have voted him to multiple pro bowls? The same people who have voted Larry Allen into the last few pro bowls when he's as effective as Redd Foxx? The same people who honor players clearly not worth it? And I'll be sure to remind you of this comment when writers and everyone says Portis is better than Betts and you post through tears.

OK, you are right, Bailey sucks. We are better off without him and got the best possible deal by trading him for Portis and giving up some picks. But for the record, I have NEVER said Betts is better than Portis, and tried to make clear that I think it's a matter of Bett's being a better value than Portis (I'm not looking at salary cap effects for this or that year, I mean $/year). The closest i've come to saying "Betts is better than Portis" is when I point out how Bett's has put up better numbers than Portis as a starter, and even then I have soemtimes prefaced such observations with "Portis may be better than Betts" or "I'm not saying Bett's is better than Portis, but...".

Michael vick prow bowls? Go bakc and tell me who in the NFC should have gone instead of him

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Anyone who thinks we're NOT better off because of the record last year really doesn't understand anything other than surface thoughts. Dig a little deeper and remember the fact that our whole team had NO FUTURE before Gibbs return. Since his return there have been improvements in every aspect of Redskins football, even "The Danny". The Redskins had a rough year this year but I am VERY confident that next years team (players and coaches)won't be that much different than the begining of this year. A few adds on defense but not much I think.
Having to learn a new offense, JC becoming the starting QB and the Defense having the injury bug, any team would have looked bad this year. This is only the begining for us Redskins fans. The best is yet to come! All HAIL!!!!!!!


My guess is there will be ALOT of crow being eaten next year this time.
Hold on a sec..I agree with you that we are better off now than before 2004, but those 2 comments are just plain excuses. There are lots of teams that had to learn a new offense this year and played better than us. There are quite a few teams that completely changed HC and made the playoffs (Chiefs, Saints, Jets..). A team like the Seahawks lost their Pro-Bowl starting QB and their MVP RB for quite some time, and still made the playoffs. The Broncos changed QB mid-season and still had a winning record.
And as for the defense, if you think that it is normal for a defense to become one of the worst defenses of all time because of a few key injuries, then you should look at what is going on with other teams. All teams deal with injuries. Some can be more crippling than others. But to be go from being the #3 defense in the NFL to a defense that is historically bad in 2 years is just not normal, and has to be looked at in a more critical way than just saying "it was all because of injuries".

[SpicyMcHaggis]

OK, you are right, Bailey sucks. We are better off without him and got the best possible deal by trading him for Portis and giving up some picks. But for the record, I have NEVER said Betts is better than Portis, and tried to make clear that I think it's a matter of Bett's being a better value than Portis (I'm not looking at salary cap effects for this or that year, I mean $/year). The closest i've come to saying "Betts is better than Portis" is when I point out how Bett's has put up better numbers than Portis as a starter, and even then I have soemtimes prefaced such observations with "Portis may be better than Betts" or "I'm not saying Bett's is better than Portis, but...".

Michael vick prow bowls? Go bakc and tell me who in the NFC should have gone instead of him
Brunell last year. I dont' remember the other times he made it. But last year it was ridiculous.

[dukeuch]

Hold on a sec..I agree with you that we are better off now than before 2004, but those 2 comments are just plain excuses. There are lots of teams that had to learn a new offense this year and played better than us. There are quite a few teams that completely changed HC and made the playoffs (Chiefs, Saints, Jets..). A team like the Seahawks lost their Pro-Bowl starting QB and their MVP RB for quite some time, and still made the playoffs. The Broncos changed QB mid-season and still had a winning record.
And as for the defense, if you think that it is normal for a defense to become one of the worst defenses of all time because of a few key injuries, then you should look at what is going on with other teams. All teams deal with injuries. Some can be more crippling than others. But to be go from being the #3 defense in the NFL to a defense that is historically bad in 2 years is just not normal, and has to be looked at in a more critical way than just saying "it was all because of injuries".

Re: Injuries on defense, look at the Pats, or the Ravens last year. We just don't have the quality of starters or depth on D.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Re: Injuries on defense, look at the Pats, or the Ravens last year. We just don't have the quality of starters or depth on D.
I agree. Those were two of the teams I was thinking of.

[redskin_rich]

Re: Injuries on defense, look at the Pats, or the Ravens last year. We just don't have the quality of starters or depth on D.
Have an injury to the QB's from those two teams and see how they do.

Hurry up and get your posts in because I am locking this thread shortly, it has long ceased being on topic and it is close to 200 posts.

[akhhorus]

OK, you are right, Bailey sucks. We are better off without him and got the best possible deal by trading him for Portis and giving up some picks.

I never said Bailey sucks. He's just not this superstar he's made out to be. And as for the deal we made, did we have any other real options that were better? The only other legit deal was Cory redding and a 2nd for champ.

But for the record, I have NEVER said Betts is better than Portis, and tried to make clear that I think it's a matter of Bett's being a better value than Portis (I'm not looking at salary cap effects for this or that year, I mean $/year). The closest i've come to saying "Betts is better than Portis" is when I point out how Bett's has put up better numbers than Portis as a starter, and even then I have soemtimes prefaced such observations with "Portis may be better than Betts" or "I'm not saying Bett's is better than Portis, but...".

Your typical semantic bs. You've been going beyond spences cva argument(which is interesting but lacks proof) to flat out sycophantic celebrating over betts success and trashing portis.

Michael vick prow bowls? Go bakc and tell me who in the NFC should have gone instead of him

Delhomme or brunell last year for sure. Vick has no business being in the pro bowl. And thanks for once again not actually debating the main issue and trying to change the subject. Typical from you.

[Hr fan]

Because we started getting good when we went back to playing our style of football. The kind of football Joe Gibbs runs. I think we have WAY too many coaches. Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians.

Borrowing this for agreement in a way. We have our skill positions set (QB, RB, LT, supposedly DE and shutdown CB). The problem is our prolonged ignoring of the draft has put the people around and in back of them inferior, composed of street FAs out of necessity and, IMO, plan. Thus we have the chiefs but no worthy indians. And rejecting indians that make it like Clark and Pierce make others want to go elsewhere first, making us truly bottom feeders.

Coaches are expendable - in baseball fire the manager when the team underperforms. You fire 1, not 26. But adding coaching turmoil will only further increase the age/vulnerability of the chiefs (for instance Springs) as the team learns new schemes. We tried this before JG's arrival with a lack of success (look at how many defensive coordinators Arrington worked with after being drafted - 1 per year until JG's arrival).

I have reluctantly concluded that the 'Skins won't be competetive in terms like Pittsburg, NE or Philadelphia until 2011, and only if they start now. The overall team quality just isn't there, and by the time it is the chiefs on the roster now will have given in to age and injury. Getting both chiefs and capable indians in place will take quite some time, since the 'Skins have the highest payrolled, oldest team in the NFL - the poorest possible position to start.

[dukeuch]

I never said Bailey sucks. He's just not this superstar he's made out to be. And as for the deal we made, did we have any other real options that were better? The only other legit deal was Cory redding and a 2nd for champ.

Don't know what else we could have gotten, but I certainly don't trust our FA then or now to get the best available. Bailey is a superstar.



Your typical semantic bs. You've been going beyond spences cva argument(which is interesting but lacks proof) to flat out sycophantic celebrating over betts success and trashing portis.

If pointing our that Betts had a better year than Portis and he gets paid less is trashing Portis, so be it. For the record, I am saying right now, and have said in the past, that Portis is probably better than Betts. Go back and check the posts if you disagree, Sigmund.



Delhomme or brunell last year for sure. Vick has no business being in the pro bowl. And thanks for once again not actually debating the main issue and trying to change the subject. Typical from you.[/QUOTE]

You first brought up Vick, not me, so I would ask that YOU stick to the subject.

[Hr fan]

This post sounds so similar to hundreds I've read over the past 6-7 years, when only those before the 2005 seemed to come true. The'Skins can come around, the question is why haven't they (in a consistent manner) since Snyder took over. Are there really every year circumstances beyond their control, or "who could have forseen it" every one of those years (except 2005), or is it more a systemic problem? I believe the latter.

The problem is systemic. How many players could we trade of our top 53? Maybe Portis, Betts, Samuels, Cooley and less certainly Thomas on offense, and Taylor and maybe Washington and Griffin on defense. Due to the age of Samuels, Washington and Griffin we wouldn't get their value to us. I have excepted Campbell, since he now is the "franchise". The lack of quality in FA acquisitions (notice there are 4 FAs and 4 draft choices named, and of the 4 FAs only Portis is under 30. Note: Moss is not named since he was a trade for a FA, Coles).

We are not only not deep, we have no real means of upgrading the roster as a whole through more than street FAs until 2009 (first returns from 2008 draft since JG doesn't play rookies). If you want to weep look at how old the core group of players will be, and realize that we are in cap hell compared to other teams, such as Philadelphia, limiting our ability to compete for quality FAs.

[dukeuch]

The problem is systemic. How many players could we trade of our top 53? Maybe Portis, Betts, Samuels, Cooley and less certainly Thomas on offense, and Taylor and maybe Washington and Griffin on defense. Due to the age of Samuels, Washington and Griffin we wouldn't get their value to us. I have excepted Campbell, since he now is the "franchise". The lack of quality in FA acquisitions (notice there are 4 FAs and 4 draft choices named, and of the 4 FAs only Portis is under 30. Note: Moss is not named since he was a trade for a FA, Coles).

We are not only not deep, we have no real means of upgrading the roster as a whole through more than street FAs until 2009 (first returns from 2008 draft since JG doesn't play rookies). If you want to weep look at how old the core group of players will be, and realize that we are in cap hell compared to other teams, such as Philadelphia, limiting our ability to compete for quality FAs.

Analyyzing, or even undestanding, cap rules and wehre the 'Skins fit in or have problems, is beyond my desire to understand. I leave it to the FA boys to understand it and make moves appropriately, and rightfully or incorectly, I judge their understanding of cap and their savvy based on the players on our roster and our W/L record. Based on those factors, I conclude our FA does not have a clue.

[shally]

Analyyzing, or even undestanding, cap rules and wehre the 'Skins fit in or have problems, is beyond my desire to understand. I leave it to the FA boys to understand it and make moves appropriately, and rightfully or incorectly, I judge their understanding of cap and their savvy based on the players on our roster and our W/L record. Based on those factors, I conclude our FA does not have a clue.


the front office understands working the cap as well or perhaps, better than any other team in the nfl.

what they do not do well, is judge talent, either on our team or on others and the impact that those player moves will have.. moreover, the scouting for players other than the in the top couple of rounds is poor over history

[smittyskin]

It is only January and already I am starting to hear the words "cap hell". But then I remember that we are the Redskins and we always find a way to get who we want and stay under the cap. With that being said, I still feel that we as an organization need to start being a little more careful with our money (to save face at the very least). We also need to make it through the offseason without giving up future draft picks for players we don't need. So, allow me to offer a possible scenario that is a little more cap and future friendly than others I have posted.

Offense:

I think we should leave it alone (personnel wise). Resign dock and pray that we can restructure some contracts to free up some space. Finally, trim the fat where we can. David Patten comes to mind here. I think he still has some left in the tank but do we really need him? Christian Fauria is another.

Defense:

Is there anywhere to go but up from what we witnessed this season? I believe, like most, that the main reason for our troubles was our inability to stop the run and muster a pass rush. This all points to the D-line. We have some good players there but we need to add some young talented guys. There is no better way to fix a defense (with a limited budget) than by adding playmakers on the D-line, IMO. I feel that by doing this, it will mask our deficiences at linebacker and in the secondary. So, here's what I think we should do:

1) Free Agents: Justin Smith, London Fletcher, and Fred Smoot

2) Draft: The D-lineman that we feel will best be suited to make an impact on day one whether he is a DT or DE.....or.....hope to trade down and draft the two defenders that we feel best suited to make an impact on day one.

3) Get rid of players we don't need. As much as I hate to say it I think either Wynn or Daniels have got to go. Holdman, Posey, Wright...c-ya.

I think that with these moves the defense as a unit will be able to bounce back and the Redskins won't have to break the bank again. Also, there will be a less chance of screwing up the chemistry in the locker room by not adding as many players. Smoot is not a #1 corner and may not be a #2 corner right now. I think he can be in the right environment. I feel Springs/Rogers/Smoot will be fine with some help from our D-line.

I think that this group has the ability to back into the playoffs next year and do well by running the ball and playing sound defense. It will also set us up a little better for the future by not overspending and saving our precious draft picks for the '08 draft.

[Syllable]

Gibbs definitely has upgraded the talent level of the team. The only exceptions in talent might be Trotter vs. Marshall, but our utilization of Trotter when he was here was god awful.

Every other position you list was an upgrade, but I am sure our naysayers will chirp in and tell us look at the (cap price) our upgrades cost/how we mortgaged our future with the loss of draft picks or that JC's real potential has not been realized (he could turn out to be another PRam bust).....:rolleyes:
Tbh Smoot and Champ > Springs and Rogers.

[akhhorus]

Don't know what else we could have gotten, but I certainly don't trust our FA then or now to get the best available. Bailey is a superstar.

And we got a superstar RB back in return. The 2nd rounder(bell) is likely to be dealt/cut.


If pointing our that Betts had a better year than Portis and he gets paid less is trashing Portis, so be it. For the record, I am saying right now, and have said in the past, that Portis is probably better than Betts. Go back and check the posts if you disagree, Sigmund.

Like I said: your usual semantic bs. You certainly relished taking shots at Portis and celebrating Betts' season and defended him on every criticism. Now you're trying to back away from those comments. Tell me, do you actually believe in anything?

You first brought up Vick, not me, so I would ask that YOU stick to the subject.

I brought him up as part of a criticism of your comments, you chose only to discuss that one part. So, I guess you can't discuss the rest?

[smittyskin]

And we got a superstar RB back in return. The 2nd rounder(bell) is likely to be dealt/cut.




Like I said: your usual semantic bs. You certainly relished taking shots at Portis and celebrating Betts' season and defended him on every criticism. Now you're trying to back away from those comments. Tell me, do you actually believe in anything?



I brought him up as part of a criticism of your comments, you chose only to discuss that one part. So, I guess you can't discuss the rest?

Children, children :banghead:

[Syllable]

Armchair Gms :)

[dukeuch]

And we got a superstar RB back in return. The 2nd rounder(bell) is likely to be dealt/cut.




Like I said: your usual semantic bs. You certainly relished taking shots at Portis and celebrating Betts' season and defended him on every criticism. Now you're trying to back away from those comments. Tell me, do you actually believe in anything?



I brought him up as part of a criticism of your comments, you chose only to discuss that one part. So, I guess you can't discuss the rest?

Do you know what semantic means? When I say, on many more than one occasion, that Portis might be better than Betts but Betts is a better bargain, and defend that arguement by pointing our that Betts is putting up better numbers, how is that semantic BS except just because you say so?

[shally]

Do you know what semantic means? When I say, on many more than one occasion, that Portis might be better than Betts but Betts is a better bargain, and defend that arguement by pointing our that Betts is putting up better numbers, how is that semantic BS except just because you say so?

for all that production, the skins are losing when betts goes over 100 yards.. something that has never happened to gibbs with portis or any of his other backs with any degree of regularity.. for certain, not all of it is on betts.. but some of it is..

[dukeuch]

for all that production, the skins are losing when betts goes over 100 yards.. something that has never happened to gibbs with portis or any of his other backs with any degree of regularity.. for certain, not all of it is on betts.. but some of it is..

You might be right. I could also point our that the Brunell/Moss combo was pretty hot when we won those five games in a row. That does not diss Portis, but I don't think it was his performance solely that got us there.

But in the post you responded to I was only trying to address the accusation that I am some sort of syncophant, and making statements and then trying to back away form them. I think my beleifs on the comparative skills of Portis vs. Betts, and the relative worth of Portis vs. Betts (which in my opinon are tw different measures) are pretty well documented, yet some here continue to misrepresent what I said by saying "semantic bs."

For chrissakes, we are talking football here, and a lot of people really take opposing arguments personally. It's just football.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

You might be right. I could also point our that the Brunell/Moss combo was pretty hot when we won those five games in a row. That does not diss Portis, but I don't think it was his performance solely that got us there.

But in the post you responded to I was only trying to address the accusation that I am some sort of syncophant, and making statements and then trying to back away form them. I think my beleifs on the comparative skills of Portis vs. Betts, and the relative worth of Portis vs. Betts (which in my opinon are tw different measures) are pretty well documented, yet some here continue to misrepresent what I said by saying "semantic bs."

For chrissakes, we are talking football here, and a lot of people really take opposing arguments personally. It's just football.
Actually not that much..Moss had only 1 100 yard game in those 5 games, and scored a TD in just that game (the Giants one, in which he scored 3 TDs and had 160 yards.
2 things made the difference IMO:
1)The defense, which made a HUGE difference
2)Portis's ability to break open the long run and find the endzone, which I think are the two things that Betts is lacking. CP scored 6 TDs in those 5 games, with a long of 47 yds. Betts has scored 9 TDs and has a long of 27 yds in his career (in his 5 game streak, he scored only 3 TDs with a long of 25).

[danny's stogie]

Actually not that much..Moss had only 1 100 yard game in those 5 games, and scored a TD in just that game (the Giants one, in which he scored 3 TDs and had 160 yards.
2 things made the difference IMO:
1)The defense, which made a HUGE difference
2)Portis's ability to break open the long run and find the endzone, which I think are the two things that Betts is lacking. CP scored 6 TDs in those 5 games, with a long of 47 yds. Betts has scored 9 TDs and has a long of 27 yds in his career (in his 5 game streak, he scored only 3 TDs with a long of 25).

I think the offense could have been first 5 weeks of 04 bad and the Skins still would have won those 5 games. 17 turnovers and 17 sacks in 5 games by that defense. Pure dominance. Would be nice to have that Phillip Daniels and Corny Griffin playing for the Skins next season.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I think the offense could have been first 5 weeks of 04 bad and the Skins still would have won those 5 games. 17 turnovers and 17 sacks in 5 games by that defense. Pure dominance. Would be nice to have that Phillip Daniels and Corny Griffin playing for the Skins next season.
Well, it was absolutely NOT a coincidence that the following week we won against Tampa despite gaining just over 100 yds of offense.

[danny's stogie]

Well, it was absolutely NOT a coincidence that the following week we won against Tampa despite gaining just over 100 yds of offense.

Well in their defense, a replay of the offense against Tampa after the Skins took an early lead: 50 gut, 50 gut, Brunell bootlegs looking for a triple teamed Moss, he's covered so Brunell throws it away, punt. Rinse and repeat.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Well in their defense, a replay of the offense against Tampa after the Skins took an early lead: 50 gut, 50 gut, Brunell bootlegs looking for a triple teamed Moss, he's covered so Brunell throws it away, punt. Rinse and repeat.
Lol...yeah, that was pretty much it..and that's why the defense made the biggest difference between winning last year and losing this year.

[danny's stogie]

Lol...yeah, that was pretty much it..and that's why the defense made the biggest difference between winning last year and losing this year.

But the funny thing though about that game was that they were probably correct in the way they adjusted the offensive game plan after getting the early lead. Tampa had a really, really good defense last season too and remember the one time Brunell broke from the normal third down routine of throwing the ball aways: Taylor Jacobs is single covered, can't get any sort inside position against the CB and Brunell throws a pick.

[akhhorus]

Do you know what semantic means? When I say, on many more than one occasion, that Portis might be better than Betts but Betts is a better bargain, and defend that arguement by pointing our that Betts is putting up better numbers, how is that semantic BS except just because you say so?

I am referring to your general posting style, which is take a position and then retreat into semantics when you're called on it. You have been unabashed in your praise and love for Betts and now you're trying to have it both ways and are trying to hide behind Spence's argument. I question if you even believe in anything at all or you just want to look like a front runner with the current hot trend.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

But the funny thing though about that game was that they were probably correct in the way they adjusted the offensive game plan after getting the early lead. Tampa had a really, really good defense last season too and remember the one time Brunell broke from the normal third down routine of throwing the ball aways: Taylor Jacobs is single covered, can't get any sort inside position against the CB and Brunell throws a pick.
Real shocker there huh?

[danny's stogie]

Real shocker there huh?

He was single covered all game. What a waste of sub 4.4 speed. :rolleyes:

[dj_stouty]

He was single covered all game. What a waste of sub 4.4 speed. :rolleyes:

Please be nice to Taylor Jacobs. After all, he is the greatest practice-field player to ever grace the Redskins!

[danny's stogie]

Please be nice to Taylor Jacobs. After all, he is the greatest practice-field player to ever grace the Redskins!

OMG, if that interception had caused the skins to lose in Tampa I would have gone South American futbol fan on TJ. It was a poor decision by Brunell, but good grief, TJ was single covered the entire game and was never open.

[redskin_rich]

OMG, if that interception had caused the skins to lose in Tampa I would have gone South American futbol fan on TJ. It was a poor decision by Brunell, but good grief, TJ was single covered the entire game and was never open.
I remember that play, that was the one that cemented my opinion of Jacobs as being softer than DQ ice cream on a hot summer day. He made absolutely no effort to get the ball, he just watched the defender go after it.

[danny's stogie]

I remember that play, that was the one that cemented my opinion of Jacobs as being softer than DQ ice cream on a hot summer day. He made absolutely no effort to get the ball, he just watched the defender go after it.

...and Tampa didn't have a single DB fast enough to cover Jacobs, they just bumped him and he'd disappear. What a waste of talent.

[dukeuch]

I am referring to your general posting style, which is take a position and then retreat into semantics when you're called on it. You have been unabashed in your praise and love for Betts and now you're trying to have it both ways and are trying to hide behind Spence's argument. I question if you even believe in anything at all or you just want to look like a front runner with the current hot trend.

You know, you might just find one post where I flat out say "Betts is better than Portis", but I doubt it. I really don't care enough one way or the other to "hide behind" anyone elses arguement, "have it boths ways", or "go with a front runner". I have really, really tried to couch any support I have regarding Betts in terms of "he's a better value" and have only pointed out where he has posted better stats than Portis when defending my position.

I just hate it when someone tries to put words in my mouth, or meaning to my words, which are not mine and claims that they are, which is the only reason why I continue this stupid debate, because I know that you are fine with Portis and would never rather have Betts at a cheaper price than Portis.

[akhhorus]

You know, you might just find one post where I flat out say "Betts is better than Portis", but I doubt it. I really don't care enough one way or the other to "hide behind" anyone elses arguement, "have it boths ways", or "go with a front runner". I have really, really tried to couch any support I have regarding Betts in terms of "he's a better value" and have only pointed out where he has posted better stats than Portis when defending my position.

Like I said: semantics. You didn't say those words exactly and trying to frame the debate on that statement(which I never said you said word for word), but you made post after post trying to point every failure and flaw with Portis and show the "greatness" of Ladell betts. A reasonable person would think that you are clearly in favor of Betts at the expense of Portis.

I just hate it when someone tries to put words in my mouth, or meaning to my words, which are not mine and claims that they are, which is the only reason why I continue this stupid debate, because I know that you are fine with Portis and would never rather have Betts at a cheaper price than Portis.

In order:
1-I never put words in your mouth.
2-All I have is what you have said. You just wanted to bring up YPC in every debate I believe.
3-Until you can remotely prove that Betts can do what Portis has done, you don't have a value argument. Betts had a nice 2nd half to 2006, but he also ruined at least 2-3 games with critical fumbles(which Portis doesn't do) and disappeared after getting off to hot starts in some games. Betts makes less than Portis, but he's CLEARLY not the same back quality wise as Portis. Even when factoring in salary, Portis is worth it.

[bgforever]

Like I said: semantics. You didn't say those words exactly and trying to frame the debate on that statement(which I never said you said word for word), but you made post after post trying to point every failure and flaw with Portis and show the "greatness" of Ladell betts. A reasonable person would think that you are clearly in favor of Betts at the expense of Portis.



In order:
1-I never put words in your mouth.
2-All I have is what you have said. You just wanted to bring up YPC in every debate I believe.
3-Until you can remotely prove that Betts can do what Portis has done, you don't have a value argument. Betts had a nice 2nd half to 2006, but he also ruined at least 2-3 games with critical fumbles(which Portis doesn't do) and disappeared after getting off to hot starts in some games. Betts makes less than Portis, but he's CLEARLY not the same back quality wise as Portis. Even when factoring in salary, Portis is worth it.

Amen

[dukeuch]

Like I said: semantics. You didn't say those words exactly and trying to frame the debate on that statement(which I never said you said word for word), but you made post after post trying to point every failure and flaw with Portis and show the "greatness" of Ladell betts. A reasonable person would think that you are clearly in favor of Betts at the expense of Portis.



In order:
1-I never put words in your mouth.
2-All I have is what you have said. You just wanted to bring up YPC in every debate I believe.
3-Until you can remotely prove that Betts can do what Portis has done, you don't have a value argument. Betts had a nice 2nd half to 2006, but he also ruined at least 2-3 games with critical fumbles(which Portis doesn't do) and disappeared after getting off to hot starts in some games. Betts makes less than Portis, but he's CLEARLY not the same back quality wise as Portis. Even when factoring in salary, Portis is worth it.

That's your opinion, great. I disagree. Neither view can be absolutely proven. We are talking relative value, and I am saying that maybe Portis is better than Betts, but for the money, Betts is a better value. How can one possibly prove or disprove that? I can't, and you can't prove otherwise. Asking me to prove Betts can do what Portis has done has no relativity to it whatsoever. It does not include the element of my argument "for the price" (whether that be $, picks/players given up, whatever).

Dude, it's just a sports arguement. Have fun with it, disagree, whatever you want to do, but don't accuse me of underhanded behavior, I'm just participating in a debate about football, it's not life and death, and is supposed to be fun. I point out what I think are the weaknesses of your argument and strenght of mine, but I don't criticize you as a person. IT'S JUST A FOOTBALL DEBATE. I don't think any less of you for disagreeing with me, please extend the same courtesy to me.

[akhhorus]

That's your opinion, great. I disagree. Neither view can be absolutely proven. We are talking relative value, and I am saying that maybe Portis is better than Betts, but for the money, Betts is a better value. How can one possibly prove or disprove that? I can't, and you can't prove otherwise. Asking me to prove Betts can do what Portis has done has no relativity to it whatsoever. It does not include the element of my argument "for the price" (whether that be $, picks/players given up, whatever).

Sure you can. I can show you what Portis can do with a full season, its only speculation on what Betts can do.

Dude, it's just a sports arguement. Have fun with it, disagree, whatever you want to do, but don't accuse me of underhanded behavior, I'm just participating in a debate about football, it's not life and death, and is supposed to be fun. I point out what I think are the weaknesses of your argument and strenght of mine, but I don't criticize you as a person. IT'S JUST A FOOTBALL DEBATE. I don't think any less of you for disagreeing with me, please extend the same courtesy to me.

I'm not accusing you of underhanded behavior. I'm accusing you of being intellectually dishonest. Don't try to take some high ground here, btw. You're the one

[dukeuch]

Sure you can. I can show you what Portis can do with a full season, its only speculation on what Betts can do.



I'm not accusing you of underhanded behavior. I'm accusing you of being intellectually dishonest. Don't try to take some high ground here, btw. You're the one

See, this is what I am talking about. You've also questioned "whether I beleive in anything". Now, what kind of person doesn't believe in anything? These are personal attacks. How could I have been any more "intellectually honest" than repeatedly state my position that Betts is a better value, not a better RB, than Portis?

Enough is enough.

[akhhorus]

See, this is what I am talking about. You've also questioned "whether I beleive in anything". Now, what kind of person doesn't believe in anything? These are personal attacks. How could I have been any more "intellectually honest" than repeatedly state my position that Betts is a better value, not a better RB, than Portis?

Enough is enough.

No, thats not a personal attack. Calling you stupid would be one, but I'm not calling you that. Calling you intellectually dishonest is questioning your posting style and logical use. And more semantics from you. So, you trash portis as a rb, point out that Betts is doing better than Portis did last year, yet you're trying to hide behind an argument that all you meant was that he's a better value? This is the intellectual dishonesty part I was discussing.

[American Soldier]

No, thats not a personal attack. Calling you stupid would be one, but I'm not calling you that. Calling you intellectually dishonest is questioning your posting style and logical use. And more semantics from you. So, you trash portis as a rb, point out that Betts is doing better than Portis did last year, yet you're trying to hide behind an argument that all you meant was that he's a better value? This is the intellectual dishonesty part I was discussing.

And yet again. The english teacher speaks with the authority from on high.

Unbelievable.

[akhhorus]

And yet again. The english teacher speaks with the authority from on high.

Unbelievable.

Im glad you're not speaking with any hint of arrogance....

[/sarcasm]

[American Soldier]

I'm not getting in this thread to "rev up" akhhorus. Lord knows I don't want to do that.

A couple years back there was a player in Kansas City that was the pretty unstoppable. A year later he was replaced by a pretty unstoppable RB. I know the first RB was hurt but even if he came back, it'd be pretty hard to sit the new RB. With that being said, I don't think that happens here but if it did and Betts continued with great rushing yards, than way get all choked up about it?

We have a great situation at the RB position. IF the Redskins decided that they could get a top notch pass rusher or CB for Portis, I wouldn't scream bloody murder. I'm not saying I'd be happy to see CP go but the NFL has never been short of RB. I'm not sure if I'd place Portis as irreplaceable yet.

[akhhorus]

I'm not getting in this thread to "rev up" akhhorus. Lord knows I don't want to do that.

(crickets)

A couple years back there was a player in Kansas City that was the pretty unstoppable. A year later he was replaced by a pretty unstoppable RB. I know the first RB was hurt but even if he came back, it'd be pretty hard to sit the new RB. With that being said, I don't think that happens here but if it did and Betts continued with great rushing yards, than way get all choked up about it?

We have a great situation at the RB position. IF the Redskins decided that they could get a top notch pass rusher or CB for Portis, I wouldn't scream bloody murder. I'm not saying I'd be happy to see CP go but the NFL has never been short of RB. I'm not sure if I'd place Portis as irreplaceable yet.

And that RB in KC had a debilitating injury that forced KC to go to Johnson. The situations are incongruent. Holmes was on the pup list or IR this year because of his concussions, the question of who they would have played is conjecture. Johnson had a great run in 05 and a great season in 06(how worn down he is is a good question after 429 carries). But if Holmes is 100% healthy, it will be hard not to play him until he shows he's finished. Anyways, they can't deal Portis without his cooperation to reduce his signing bonus due to the cap situation.

[American Soldier]

By the way, a better running back is a relative term unless you're talking about Berry Sanders or LT. Otherwise running backs do well when they get good blocking.
Betts has more yards per carry than Portis over the past three years.
In 2005, Portis had 1516 yards after 352 carries. This year Betts had 1154 yards after 245 carries. It may seem relative to say that if Betts would have carried the ball 352 times he would have had around 1654 yards rushing this year. Yea whatever.....BUT, if I'm an organization that just landed a cheap running back for 5 years that can produce the same as one of my highest paid, I'm thinking......hmm. I wouldn't put it past the Redskins and Al Saunders doesn't seem to like the way Portis goes about things. Just something to ponder.

[akhhorus]

By the way, a better running back is a relative term unless you're talking about Berry Sanders or LT. Otherwise running backs do well when they get good blocking.
Betts has more yards per carry than Portis over the past three years.
In 2005, Portis had 1516 yards after 352 carries. This year Betts had 1154 yards after 245 carries. It may seem relative to say that if Betts would have carried the ball 352 times he would have had around 1654 yards rushing this year. Yea whatever.....BUT, if I'm an organization that just landed a cheap running back for 5 years that can produce the same as one of my highest paid, I'm thinking......hmm. I wouldn't put it past the Redskins and Al Saunders doesn't seem to like the way Portis goes about things. Just something to ponder.

Its selective stat use! How about Portis having 7 tds in 124 carries this year versus 4 for Betts in 250+ carries? See, I can do that too lol.

[American Soldier]

Its selective stat use! How about Portis having 7 tds in 124 carries this year versus 4 for Betts in 250+ carries? See, I can do that too lol.

It's all relative, which is my point. Stats are relative!!

We have a good situation at RB. Portis is a good running back. Betts is a good running back as indicative of what you saw him do this year.
Portis cost more than Betts. Value goes to Bett.

Enough already!!

[American Soldier]

(crickets)



And that RB in KC had a debilitating injury that forced KC to go to Johnson. The situations are incongruent. Holmes was on the pup list or IR this year because of his concussions, the question of who they would have played is conjecture. Johnson had a great run in 05 and a great season in 06(how worn down he is is a good question after 429 carries). But if Holmes is 100% healthy, it will be hard not to play him until he shows he's finished. Anyways, they can't deal Portis without his cooperation to reduce his signing bonus due to the cap situation.

I know..I know. It's a mute point with CP's contract, but the argument that Clinton is as wonderful as some make it out is just.......well...relative.
Please don't get me wrong, Clinton blocks like a beast and he has great speed and quickness. I just don't like his reads sometimes. They seem to be a bit slower than Betts. If Portis would just hit the right hole when he needs to or wait for the hole to develop when he needs to, he'd do well for himself and the team. I'm extremely interested to see what CP does next year. There shouldn't be any excuses unless they don't re-sign Dockery.

[akhhorus]

I know..I know. It's a mute point with CP's contract, but the argument that Clinton is as wonderful as some make it out is just.......well...relative.
Please don't get me wrong, Clinton blocks like a beast and he has great speed and quickness. I just don't like his reads sometimes. They seem to be a bit slower than Betts. If Portis would just hit the right hole when he needs to or wait for the hole to develop when he needs to, he'd do well for himself and the team. I'm extremely interested to see what CP does next year. There shouldn't be any excuses unless they don't re-sign Dockery.

Unless Dock wants twice what he's worth. What bothers me most about Betts is the critical fumbles. Davis had the same problems and Betts crippled this team multiple times in 06 with a bad fumble.

[American Soldier]

Unless Dock wants twice what he's worth. What bothers me most about Betts is the critical fumbles. Davis had the same problems and Betts crippled this team multiple times in 06 with a bad fumble.


Correctable. See Tiki.

[akhhorus]

Correctable. See Tiki.

Don't want to wait 3 years and sit through 700 carries of his to see if he can fix it.

[American Soldier]

Don't want to wait 3 years and sit through 700 carries of his to see if he can fix it.

You know...I don't claim to be sensitive. Nor do I think I'm a male chauvinist, but are you a woman? There's just something about your determination to win what you think is an argument. What the hell does 700 carries and 3 years mean? Even if you are referring to Tiki. Aren't you the same person that goes off on people that rip the Redskins organization for past issues?

It's correctable already!!:smash:

[akhhorus]

You know...I don't claim to be sensitive. Nor do I think I'm a male chauvinist, but are you a woman?

Don't drink and post.

There's just something about your determination to win what you think is an argument. What the hell does 700 carries and 3 years mean? Even if you are referring to Tiki. Aren't you the same person that goes off on people that rip the Redskins organization for past issues?

It's correctable already!!:smash:

It is? It took Tiki 3-5 seasons to correct it(he had 45 fumbles from 1999-2004). I would rather play Portis than play Betts or give him significant carries in the hopes that he's corrected it(hence the 700 carries comment). And what does my opinion about the Skins organization have to do with this exactly?

[chrisbcbu]

To me. The whole Portis/Betts is no contest. Portis has proven in this league that he is an elite back. He was easily on pace to break rushing records until he got hurt. Hardly fumbles/has breakaway speed/even better blocking(can stop a charging LB on a dime)

Betts is a good RB but nowhere in the league of a Portis.

[American Soldier]

Don't drink and post.



It is? It took Tiki 3-5 seasons to correct it(he had 45 fumbles from 1999-2004). I would rather play Portis than play Betts or give him significant carries in the hopes that he's corrected it(hence the 700 carries comment). And what does my opinion about the Skins organization have to do with this exactly?

You rip someone for being pessimistic about the Skins organization changing for the better while you give no hope for Betts changing the way he carries the football which is far more correctable than this chinese fire drill of an organization.

[akhhorus]

You rip someone for being pessimistic about the Skins organization changing for the better while you give no hope for Betts changing the way he carries the football which is far more correctable than this chinese fire drill of an organization.

An organization is easier to fix than a player who has had the same problem for a long time. Tiki did fix it, Davis never did. More Rbs don't fix their fumbles than do. You still shouldn't drink and post.

[redskin_rich]

You rip someone for being pessimistic about the Skins organization changing for the better while you give no hope for Betts changing the way he carries the football which is far more correctable than this chinese fire drill of an organization.
An organization is easier to fix than a player who has had the same problem for a long time. Tiki did fix it, Davis never did. More Rbs don't fix their fumbles than do. You still shouldn't drink and post.Agreed with the bolded. Leave that to the pro's. ;)

This thread has run it's course a few times over now. Thanks for playing. Closed.