Haven't gauged views on Snyder in awhile ...

[PennSkinsFan]

So here you go, a poll for hR to sound off on the thoughts on Daniel Snyder.

[redskin_rich]

I used to be neutral but I'm starting to really dislike Snyder.

[BandWagon]

Well if success or failure starts at the top, he doesn't rate very well.

[CNYSkinFan]

I used to love him because I thought he really wanted to win and was willing to put his money where his mouth was.

Now I realize it is his mouth that causes so many bad trades and a dysfunctional front office.

I am now in the he is ok camp.

[PennSkinsFan]

My whole point for voting the way I did is, i don't want to hear the friggin argument of SDan will sopend the money, Dan will put up the bucks. We knwo that and maybe that is part of a wider problem. My whole deal is, since he took over wonership in 2000, we have been to the playoffs once, gone though 6 coaches and have a W/L record of 41-56 (Approx.) and it just seems to me that the organization is just completely dysfunctional.

[akhhorus]

Snyder doesn't run the FO, Gibbs does. I do note the irony that we wanted the skins to have a calm offseason and not have a spending splurge--we get that from the skins(make a couple good, cost effective signings)--and we're still upset lol.

[PennSkinsFan]

Snyder doesn't run the FO, Gibbs does. I do note the irony that we wanted the skins to have a calm offseason and not have a spending splurge--we get that from the skins(make a couple good, cost effective signings)--and we're still upset lol.
Snyder is involved, trust me.

[akhhorus]

Snyder is involved, trust me.

He might have some say here and there, but even during the Briggs stuff, he said to Jay Glazer that he would be interested in the rumored trade, but that its up to Gibbs(paraphrase). Gibbs still makes the final decisions.

[redskin_rich]

Snyder doesn't run the FO, Gibbs does. I do note the irony that we wanted the skins to have a calm offseason and not have a spending splurge--we get that from the skins(make a couple good, cost effective signings)--and we're still upset lol.
My dislike of Snyder stems from his ever increasing ways to gouge the fans, not so much the pitiful play of the team or what the front office has done. Although I do think Snyder tends towards more style than substance when it comes to personnel and he does have input in that process.

[PennSkinsFan]

He might have some say here and there, but even during the Briggs stuff, he said to Jay Glazer that he would be interested in the rumored trade, but that its up to Gibbs(paraphrase). Gibbs still makes the final decisions.

Gibbs is involved in the final decisions. To minimize Snyder's involvement though is totally errant, at least from sources we talk to.

[BandWagon]

My whole point for voting the way I did is, i don't want to hear the friggin argument of SDan will sopend the money, Dan will put up the bucks. We knwo that and maybe that is part of a wider problem. My whole deal is, since he took over wonership in 2000, we have been to the playoffs once, gone though 6 coaches and have a W/L record of 41-56 (Approx.) and it just seems to me that the organization is just completely dysfunctional.

Well, if I coded my web site correctly here's the exact stats for 2000-06

Statistical Results: 55 Wins, 76 Losses, 0 Ties (.419)
Total Points for: 2298 (avg: 17.54) Total Points against: 2589 (avg: 19.76)

[BurgundyNGold]

Snyder doesn't run the FO, Gibbs does. I do note the irony that we wanted the skins to have a calm offseason and not have a spending splurge--we get that from the skins(make a couple good, cost effective signings)--and we're still upset lol.
Do you *really* think that Gibbs was driving the Lance Briggs deal? It wasn't Gibbs' awesome relationship with Next Question that made the Briggs deal a possibility. It wasn't Gibbs' big mouth that tried to jump start the deal at the owner's meeting. Just because Joe might come out like a martyr in the press and deflect criticism from everyone from the towel boy to the owner doesn't mean it's true.

[CNYSkinFan]

Snyder doesn't run the FO, Gibbs does. I do note the irony that we wanted the skins to have a calm offseason and not have a spending splurge--we get that from the skins(make a couple good, cost effective signings)--and we're still upset lol.
well I was satisfied until the Briggs rumor, which I was whole heartedly against as a violation of that quiet off season theory in my mind.

Gibbs may have veto power, but even Gibbs has said that he and Snyder and even Vinny are a team. Snyder is in charge of cap negotiations and contracts, Vinny scouting and talent evaluation, Gibbs on football related decisions.

The problem with this setup is there is no one to say "NO" anywhere in there. Snyder is too involved in my view and it is hurting the team because he is unwilling top put someone in there to say no to Gibbs and himself.

[PennSkinsFan]

Well, if I coded my web site correctly here's the exact stats for 2000-06

Statistical Results: 55 Wins, 76 Losses, 0 Ties (.419)
Total Points for: 2298 (avg: 17.54) Total Points against: 2589 (avg: 19.76)

Thanks BW! Your site is the stuff!

[BandWagon]

Thanks BW! Your site is the stuff!

Thanks man!

[Battle Cat]

I think he is a good owner and yes because he spends the money. And I don't think for one bit Snyder is telling Gibbs who to trade for and personnel decisions. I believe if he was Gibbs would have taken his millions and went back to Nascar long ago. I can't see Gibbs get football orders from Daniel Snyder he makes it possible for any coach that has been here to get whoever they want coaching staff and personnel wise.

[akhhorus]

My dislike of Snyder stems from his ever increasing ways to gouge the fans, not so much the pitiful play of the team or what the front office has done. Although I do think Snyder tends towards more style than substance when it comes to personnel and he does have input in that process.

So, don't buy tickets or anything that puts money in his pocket. Its not like you have to pay to watch the games on TV(outside of the cost of the TV and electricity). Yes, its not the same thing as being there, but you don't have to give him a dime if you want.

Gibbs is involved in the final decisions. To minimize Snyder's involvement though is totally errant, at least from sources we talk to.

Like I said: Snyder might have some say. Gibbs still makes the final decisions. This offseason should have proven that when we didn't even talk to any big name FAs.

Do you *really* think that Gibbs was driving the Lance Briggs deal? It wasn't Gibbs' awesome relationship with Next Question that made the Briggs deal a possibility. It wasn't Gibbs' big mouth that tried to jump start the deal at the owner's meeting. Just because Joe might come out like a martyr in the press and deflect criticism from everyone from the towel boy to the owner doesn't mean it's true.

I think it was Rosenhaus frankly. But I don't think Snyder put the deal officially to the Bears without Gibbs enthusiastically on board for making it-if he was the one who drove it. I think Gibbs had at least as much to do with it as Snyder did.

[Patrick]

When you look at the overall picture OR the State of the Redskins (so to speak) I don't feel that Dan Snyder has been a stellar owner. Sure the Washington organization might be #1 in value BUT the product that he's putting out on the field stinks (sorry no other way to express it). I guess that is a testament to Danny - produce a bad product but stay on top - amazing to say the least.
WHAT really concerns me though - Daniel Snyder was NOT very successful in his early adventures - even went UNDER once. Yes he finally became VERY sucessful but how much more is it going to cost us before any headway is made. ................ IMO - things will get worse before they get better. BUT hopefully (and honest I try hard to keep the faith) when they do get better - they'll be that way for a long time.

[Battle Cat]

I think he made some bad choices in coaches but when he says highest coaching payroll go get whoever you want. And he says payroll wise go get whoever you want on th efield I don't think we can blame him even mostly. Except for his decision never to have a general manager.

[redskin_rich]

So, don't buy tickets or anything that puts money in his pocket. Its not like you have to pay to watch the games on TV(outside of the cost of the TV and electricity). Yes, its not the same thing as being there, but you don't have to give him a dime if you want.

That is very likely what I will be doing.

[firehawk157]

I agree with Akh, if people are tired of paying high prices, just stop paying them. It's called fair market value, if I know I can sell my car for $20000, I'm sure as hell not going to sell it for $15000. I don't agree with all his gouging (I've heard food at FEDEX is expensive and I don't think THATS necessary) but how many people, if given the team today, would do something completely different?
Anyways, I voted just okay, because for some reason, people seem to hate meddling by Snyder but when Jerry Jones does it, it's all okay. I mean, when was the last time you saw Snyder talk as in-depth about team needs and draft prospects? Or saw him down on the sideline during a game? He's a big fan, and like big fans, like to get his .02 in there and due to his position, must be listened to, but I don't think he's ever just completely overrode his coaches to pick a guy he likes. Like we think Jones has (TO anybody?)

[Dolla Bill]

I think that AA and Lloyd have caused the FO to slow their usual ways as far as FA go. We have had a relative quiet off season, and I prefer it that way. If FA was quiet this year, I wonder if they are targeting someone next year already. Who is a FA after this next year?

[BurgundyNGold]

I think it was Rosenhaus frankly. But I don't think Snyder put the deal officially to the Bears without Gibbs enthusiastically on board for making it-if he was the one who drove it. I think Gibbs had at least as much to do with it as Snyder did.
Rosenhaus didn't mention it to the press, as was reported, That was Snyder. Given the continued irrational behavior of this FO, I have no reason to believe that the notably grounded Gibbs would be coming up with all of this.

[CNYSkinFan]

Wait a minute...Akh you have not voted....You got to take a position before asking others to defend theirs.

[firehawk157]

I think that AA and Lloyd have caused the FO to slow their usual ways as far as FA go. We have had a relative quiet off season, and I prefer it that way. If FA was quiet this year, I wonder if they are targeting someone next year already. Who is a FA after this next year?

Wow, it's hard to really go into that, a lot of people will sign extensions and the like by then.

[dj_stouty]

I'm Neutral.

I only go to one game a year at FedEx anymore...so I'm limited in the # of times Danny can gouge me. Plus, I've purchased $7 beers at other sports facilities such as Soldier Field, Verizon Center, Qualcomm Stadium, The Carrier Dome, Denver's MLB baseball field, PETco Park...etc. The price of food/drink at FedEx is really no different. I do have a problem with the parking situation at FedEx. The shuttles to and from the cash lots are a joke and are slow...and no parking space should ever be worth $100 on ebay.

But I honestly think Danny has less involvement now with the team than he did under Marty and Spurrier. He has hired himself with the NFL's most talented coaching staff...and it is on their shoulders to find a way to make something happen.

Hence...I'm pretty neutral.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I fear the moment Danny will not have his childhood hero as his coach anymore.

[BandWagon]

I think he is a good owner and yes because he spends the money. And I don't think for one bit Snyder is telling Gibbs who to trade for and personnel decisions. I believe if he was Gibbs would have taken his millions and went back to Nascar long ago. I can't see Gibbs get football orders from Daniel Snyder he makes it possible for any coach that has been here to get whoever they want coaching staff and personnel wise.

Battle Cat, here's the thing. Gibbs has always maintained this air of respectful subservientcy (is that a word?) to the owner. Listen to old footage of him talking about Mr. Cooke...then compare to current. You'll find at least in his tone and choice of language he understands who's ultimately in charge..little has changed from the 80's. I theorize that there could be instances where Gibbs bites his tongue, so to speak. In other words, Gibbs would be willing to take his orders from Snyder. This is obviously just my opinion, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

[firehawk157]

I fear the moment Danny will not have his childhood hero as his coach anymore.

Hopefully, we'll be in a good position (record-wise) and a coach from within is promoted so Snyder would feel better about staying out of things.

[Swirvi]

I agree with Akh, if people are tired of paying high prices, just stop paying them. It's called fair market value, if I know I can sell my car for $20000, I'm sure as hell not going to sell it for $15000. I don't agree with all his gouging (I've heard food at FEDEX is expensive and I don't think THATS necessary) but how many people, if given the team today, would do something completely different?

But the problem is that even if I or you or the both of us or all of us on this website decide to never buy a ticket ever again, there are thousands more willing to spend their money. And Danny knows this. He is the ultimate posterboy for the slogan "Penny wise, pound foolish". He knows how to make this franchise valuable. Ticket prices are exorbitant (sp?), the price of food outweighs its quality way too much, you have to take out a second mortgage to park at the stadium, and don't get me started on spending around $45 on 6 miller lites. This all leads to huge wads of cash busting the seams in his pockets. And yet, he is pound foolish because no matter how much he thinks he knows and how much he meddles, he can't put a successful product on the field. We all know this. I applaud him for landing the biggest FA to come here since Gibbs left - Joe Gibbs. But until he takes a step back, and hires a true GM, I think we are always going to be a sub-mediocre team that will eventually be worth twice as much money as the next most valuable team.

Hail to the money-hungry, price guaging, sub-par, overly zealous, offseason's Superbowl Champion Redskins.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

I voted neutral but meant to vote he's OK. He obviously loses points because he has not been able to put together a stable winning environment. But, IMO he keeps trying including taking a back seat to Gibbs, and I think that is worth something.

I do think he can get this right, and I do think he wants to get this right more than any of us will ever know.

Trying and good intentions are still worth something for me. So in my book, he's OK.

[firehawk157]

Battle Cat, here's the thing. Gibbs has always maintained this air of respectful subservientcy (is that a word?) to the owner. Listen to old footage of him talking about Mr. Cooke...then compare to current. You'll find at least in his tone and choice of language he understands who's ultimately in charge..little has changed from the 80's. I theorize that there could be instances where Gibbs bites his tongue, so to speak. In other words, Gibbs would be willing to take his orders from Snyder. This is obviously just my opinion, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Of course, you never piss off the guy who signs your paychecks. But at the same hand, there also has to be a level of a grandfatherly figure dynamic to the relationship. Gibbs has to know that he would have to kill Snyder's mom to get fired so he can do as he wants, but at the same hand, there's no need to sour the relationship unnecessarily by calling snyder out in public.

[firehawk157]

I voted neutral but meant to vote he's OK. He obviously loses points because he has not been able to put together a stable winning environment. But, IMO he keeps trying including taking a back seat to Gibbs, and I think that is worth something.

I do think he can get this right, and I do think he wants to get this right more than any of us will ever know.

Trying and good intentions are still worth something for me. So in my book, he's OK.

It's harder to shelve your pride I bet...

[SkinsfaninNJ]

You're never going to hear me complain about the prices of food, tickets, etc. I have complete control over that. I either go to the game and eat or don't. The man has every right to get his money.

As much as I love the Redskins, this is still just a hobby. I don't have to be there. Also, if you kill Danny for ticket prices and the like, you have to give him credit for the being the only owner to put the radio signal (even streaming on the net) on free radio.

My main concern is put a winning product on the field.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

It's harder to shelve your pride I bet...
What do you mean by shelve your pride?

[cmdlost29]

My feelings on Snyder...

When he took over ownership he made some mistakes in Free Agency such as adding Deion Sanders and Jeff George. This was very stupid in my eyes and only a non football minded person would have done that. Then he made a much greater, and my least favorite move when he fired Marty as coach. That was due again to an unexpirenced owner dealing with a difficult problem. Then he chooses the sexy college coach and that was a total failure. So he reverts to his childhood coach and now I feel as if he's making another mistake with this. The big mistake Snyders making with Gibbs right now is his unwillingness to hold Gibbs to the fire for the mistakes made. If he was pressuring Gibbs more I expect there would have been more Defensive coaches fired this offseason. Instead he's content now to let Gibbs run the show his own way. The problem with this method is what can he do next off season if this upcoming season is another failure? Will he go out and get the much needed GM? Will he let Gibbs and company return? Will he give Gibbs an ultimatum to win next season or leave? And if so will Gibbs leave regardless? Right now a lot of things are up in the air for the Redskins. If we have success will it be a result of a good system in place going forward or will it be because we were lucky in a broken system? Lots of questions for this team and his ownership right now.

The reason he deserves an vote of OK as an owner is because he seems to be learning from most of his mistakes and more importantly he is trying to win. I don't care if Snyder is the worst owner in the league, he is willing to make moves whether they will win or lose for us to make the team better. That is the true mark of a good owner. We are going through Snyders learning curve. I bet in 10 years he is the model owner for clubs around the league that teams emmulate. It is just going to take time to get us there.

[firehawk157]

What do you mean by shelve your pride?

It means to put on the shelf, or to ignore. Basically he thought he was smart enough in football to make those personnel decisions. But when he hired Gibbs, he realized that he wasn't, so he took the hit to his pride and stayed out of things.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

It means to put on the shelf, or to ignore. Basically he thought he was smart enough in football to make those personnel decisions. But when he hired Gibbs, he realized that he wasn't, so he took the hit to his pride and stayed out of things.
Agreed. I imagine this offseason was probably the most difficult since he did take a back seat and it didn't work last year.

[esmith1790]

I agree with Akh, if people are tired of paying high prices, just stop paying them. It's called fair market value, if I know I can sell my car for $20000, I'm sure as hell not going to sell it for $15000. I don't agree with all his gouging (I've heard food at FEDEX is expensive and I don't think THATS necessary) but how many people, if given the team today, would do something completely different?
Anyways, I voted just okay, because for some reason, people seem to hate meddling by Snyder but when Jerry Jones does it, it's all okay. I mean, when was the last time you saw Snyder talk as in-depth about team needs and draft prospects? Or saw him down on the sideline during a game? He's a big fan, and like big fans, like to get his .02 in there and due to his position, must be listened to, but I don't think he's ever just completely overrode his coaches to pick a guy he likes. Like we think Jones has (TO anybody?)


I would have to refrain from voting as a boys fan.

Jerry Jones is the Owner and GM. That is part of his title. Snyder is sorta playing GM and that is a big difference to me. Also, Jerry Jones was the owner and GM when we won 3 SuperBowls. (I know Jimmy did most of the work) So that is the reason he is given some built in excuses.

If Snyder wins a SuperBowl or two then he will believe even harder his way is the right way. Some fans would believe his way is the right way also.

[CarMike]

I'm neutral. For me, that's down a bit since i've been a snyder fan for a while now.

I'm tired of losing. And i'm tired of draft day not being draft day.

[redskin_rich]

You're never going to hear me complain about the prices of food, tickets, etc. I have complete control over that. I either go to the game and eat or don't. The man has every right to get his money.

As much as I love the Redskins, this is still just a hobby. I don't have to be there. Also, if you kill Danny for ticket prices and the like, you have to give him credit for the being the only owner to put the radio signal (even streaming on the net) on free radio.

My main concern is put a winning product on the field.
What actually happened was the station that carried the games found Snyder's price to high and told him "no thanks." Snyder then went and bought 3 local radio stations with pathetically weak signals to broadcast the games. If you take the 45 minute (with no traffic) drive around the beltway, you will have to go through all 3 stations to continue listening.

Concession prices are on par with every other venue in any other sport, that is not an issue. Parking prices are an issue, as is selling year old peanuts, bought from a bankrupt airline, at full price. Selling 9-11 commerative Redskins hats without donating anything to the survivors is an issue. Having to watch commercials in the stadium is an issue. Letting people buy their way to the front of the line for lower level seats is an issue.
And this new garbage that you can't sell your own tickets at face value unless you use his broker (stubhub), is just absurd.

[akhhorus]

That is very likely what I will be doing.

Snyder doesn't own the Woodford Distillery(yet) :beer:

Rosenhaus didn't mention it to the press, as was reported, That was Snyder. Given the continued irrational behavior of this FO, I have no reason to believe that the notably grounded Gibbs would be coming up with all of this.

Rosenhaus was the one dancing in and out of the press that started this. Snyder only commented because Jay Glazer asked him for his opinion. I don't believe for one second that if Gibbs was against this potential trade even a little bit, Snyder barreled ahead with an offer. I know we like to spare Gibbs any criticism even though he's the fricking GM and lay the blame on Cerrato and Snyder; but C'mon.

Wait a minute...Akh you have not voted....You got to take a position before asking others to defend theirs.

My position is clear, and I don't think the poll has an option for my view

But the problem is that even if I or you or the both of us or all of us on this website decide to never buy a ticket ever again, there are thousands more willing to spend their money. And Danny knows this. He is the ultimate posterboy for the slogan "Penny wise, pound foolish". He knows how to make this franchise valuable. Ticket prices are exorbitant (sp?), the price of food outweighs its quality way too much, you have to take out a second mortgage to park at the stadium, and don't get me started on spending around $45 on 6 miller lites. This all leads to huge wads of cash busting the seams in his pockets. And yet, he is pound foolish because no matter how much he thinks he knows and how much he meddles, he can't put a successful product on the field. We all know this. I applaud him for landing the biggest FA to come here since Gibbs left - Joe Gibbs. But until he takes a step back, and hires a true GM, I think we are always going to be a sub-mediocre team that will eventually be worth twice as much money as the next most valuable team.

Hail to the money-hungry, price guaging, sub-par, overly zealous, offseason's Superbowl Champion Redskins.

That's terrible logic. So, because someone else will buy the tickets or give money to Snyder, we shouldn't bother to not do it out of protest? So, because anyone can get any drug on the streets, we should just legalize it.

[CarMike]

Rich brings alot of issues up that i've never heard of before. Wow Rich!

[wide_awake]

I feel that Snyder is a unethical, but excellent business man, and awful at running a football organization.

And would everyone stop saying that Danny is shelling out money (out of his pockets) for these free agents! He's using the money that we the fans give him.. That's not money out of his pocket, that's money generated through the franchise..

[Ibleedburgundy]

I am neutral. Dan wants to win and he will do anything to win, you gotta respect that. But he also milks every last penny out of the fans who attend the games, and IMO he goes a little overboard to the point where it is negatively impacting the atmosphere at the games.

[BurgundyNGold]

I am neutral. Dan wants to win and he will do anything to win, you gotta respect that. But he also milks every last penny out of the fans who attend the games, and IMO he goes a little overboard to the point where it is negatively impacting the atmosphere at the games.
Agreed. He's squeezing every last dime out of the game experience.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

What actually happened was the station that carried the games found Snyder's price to high and told him "no thanks." Snyder then went and bought 3 local radio stations with pathetically weak signals to broadcast the games. If you take the 45 minute (with no traffic) drive around the beltway, you will have to go through all 3 stations to continue listening.

Concession prices are on par with every other venue in any other sport, that is not an issue. Parking prices are an issue, as is selling year old peanuts, bought from a bankrupt airline, at full price. Selling 9-11 commerative Redskins hats without donating anything to the survivors is an issue. Having to watch commercials in the stadium is an issue. Letting people buy their way to the front of the line for lower level seats is an issue.
And this new garbage that you can't sell your own tickets at face value unless you use his broker (stubhub), is just absurd.
No one can defend all of these actions, particularly the 9/11 pins. But the internet radio has helped me and a lot of fans on this board hear games that I would not otherwise get to see (no Direct TV).

It would be foolish to try to defend a lot of the stupid choices he has made like the pins or charging for training camp, but if he puts a consistent winner on the field, none of these things will matter much to the vast majority.

[hail2skins]

I feel that Snyder is a unethical, but excellent business man, and awful at running a football organization.

And would everyone stop saying that Danny is shelling out money (out of his pockets) for these free agents! He's using the money that we the fans give him.. That's not money out of his pocket, that's money generated through the franchise..That is money out of his pocket. Because if he didn't want to do it, it would be in his pockets. So, it is coming out of his pockets.

[silverspring]

Hes ok. I like that he will do anything to win. I think he has made a lot of huge mistakes with the team but it impresses me that he continues to progress and change. I think he is stepping back more and more and if he would just hire a true gm we would be set. Gibbs and him have both acknowledged that gibbs has final say on all personnel decisions so I am not one of the crew that blames snyder for things gibbs has the final responsibility for and I certainly supported the decision to bring gibbs here. I just hope when gibbs leaves we hire a real gm and separate the coach gm role.

[Swirvi]

That's terrible logic. So, because someone else will buy the tickets or give money to Snyder, we shouldn't bother to not do it out of protest? So, because anyone can get any drug on the streets, we should just legalize it.

That wasn't my point at all. The logic is that boycotting won't do any good because there are plenty of people who will buy. In essence, it only affects you as a consumer and won't afffect Snyder as a seller. Anyone can ofcourse still do what they want. 3 years ago, I bought my season tickets and now I prefer to watch the games from the comfort of my home, so I found a willing partner and transferred my contract. I did it because I didn't want to support him, as well as save money in the wallet. But I also recognize that it has no effect on him whatsoever...as demand will always be high when it comes to the skins.

I'm not telling everyone to not protest him. I'm just saying that we should recognize that we are only making a point to ourselves. He's too rich to hear us...and demand is too high to try and listen.

And as far as the drugs example...come on now. THAT is terrible logic.

[Keino]

I abstain because there isn't an answer that represents my view.

How are we supposed to be guaging our view of Snyder? He is clearly not the same guy from 1999.

[smoak]

I voted "Not a very good owner so far", but I see improvement.

[PennSkinsFan]

I voted "Not a very good owner so far", but I see improvement.:) Excellent response.

[PennSkinsFan]

I voted "Not a very good owner so far", but I see improvement.:) Excellent response.

[PennSkinsFan]

I abstain because there isn't an answer that represents my view.

How are we supposed to be guaging our view of Snyder? He is clearly not the same guy from 1999.

Come on, don't take the poll too seriosuly. Just for fun. Plus, were testing the public poll option. :bigteeth:

[ace4ever]

I can't hate Snyder too badly. True he overpays constantly, makes poor moves and keeps Vinny in the loop, but seeing how some owners shortchange their teams and fans makes me appreciate the fact that he actually spends. Look how long it took the Cardinals to be relevant.

[bergiemoore]

I can't hate Snyder too badly. True he overpays constantly, makes poor moves and keeps Vinny in the loop, but seeing how some owners shortchange their teams and fans makes me appreciate the fact that he actually spends. Look how long it took the Cardinals to be relevant.

Still waiting on that one. Heck, even after they moved to the dreadful NFC West, they're still bottom dwellers. I wish they were still in the NFC East. That way, we could count at least 2 wins per year.

Danny hasn't given us much to cheer about on the field in the last 7 years, but I don't question his commitment to the team, nor do I think that he'd be so idiotic as to screw a coach that just took his team to the Super Bowl for the first time in 20 years, a la the Chicago Bears.

We could do worse. Danny's money, and initial meddling in the day-to-day operations earned him much negative criticism and attention from the media. That image will continue to be what the world thinks of this team until the Skins are able to become a perennial play-off contender.

I'm hoping that the consistency at the Head Coaching position, and the talent on this roster, start producing dividends. Winning is the only cure for this team's "dysfunction".

[smoak]

:) Excellent response.

Really? I thought you were more down on him? Just curious...

[Keino]

Come on, don't take the poll too seriosuly. Just for fun. Plus, were testing the public poll option. :bigteeth:

I take all my votes seriously....

[Meatsnack]

This is a tough question. Snyder the person seems to be a Napoleon-syndrome dillweed.

Snyder the owner wants to win above all else and spends as or more freely than any other owner. He doesn't seem willing to take direction from football people other than Gibbs and makes high-profile mistakes. But, he seems to make them with good intentions.

All things considered, I am willing to let Dan "grow" into his role. If he continues to get smarter and make better decisions, he gets a lot of slack from me.

[bergiemoore]

All things considered, I am willing to let Dan "grow" into his role. If he continues to get smarter and make better decisions, he gets a lot of slack from me.

I agree.

If this team can put a couple of winning seasons in the books, criticism of Danny boy will likely subside. When you've had a season like we just had, however, there is no lack of criticism for anyone associated with this team.

[ryflan47]

he's alright by me

[James F. Quinn]

I went for OK, because his heart was in the right place to get Joe Gibbs on board, but it puts off doing the hard choice of bringing in a tough GM and letting him make the hard decisions - and backing him the way he backs JG.

[ObiWan1278]

I love our owner. Thank god it isn't the Cardinals owner, or the Saints ownership wanting to move the team to San Antonio.

Dan Snyder will bring a Vince Lombardi trophy back to DC to me its not a matter of will he its a matter of when. I believe in my heart Snyder will try every trick in the book to get the skins to winning.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I love our owner. Thank god it isn't the Cardinals owner, or the Saints ownership wanting to move the team to San Antonio.

Dan Snyder will bring a Vince Lombardi trophy back to DC to me its not a matter of will he its a matter of when. I believe in my heart Snyder will try every trick in the book to get the skins to winning.
I'm not criticizing you or anything, I'm just curious: how can you be so sure of that? What has happened so far that leads you to believe that?

[frankez99]

Neutral....but heading south.

[hail2skins]

Hmm, lemme see if I can come to a decision on this.

I believe Snyder has come a long way in terms of ownership. I also believe he has a long way to go in terms of ownership. We all love the passion he has for the organization and money he is willing to put into the team. Those are pluses in my book in terms of ownership.

As for how he runs the organization, well it started off real rough for him and he's still paying that bill to the media. It's probably one he'll be paying forever. There were bad decisions in player acquisitions, coaching hirings and firings and the handling of the fans (trying to make one credit usable for tickets). Has there been improvement in this area, well yes and no. We're smarter about player acquisition and I don't think anyone questioned him bringing back Joe Gibbs. But, there are things like the Stubhub deal that seems to impact (in a negative way) his growth as an owner. Also, the way the Briggs story was reported was interesting because what I read made it seem like this was something he initiated and it was bought to Gibbs attention. That would not sit well with me. You can't say all football matters are decided by Gibbs but you throw something out there hoping to get his approval. Well, being the owner you probably would get his approval since you write his checks, but you get my point.

There also that side that we don't hear about much where he does things for charities and the community. He had a number of the football fields at local high schools repaired and reburished, he sits as chair for a number of charities and I have attended and performed at several of the events at his request.

With that said, I'll have to say I'm neutral on him at the moment.

[flave1969]

I think he has tried everything he can to make the team a success. He has tried the best coaches, tried to get the players the coaches have wanted, put his money where his mouth is.

The price hikes you as fans who can go to games must be difficult to take, and you can vote with your feet and not pay but that isn't a good solution for a loyal fan. It is a reflection of a league that squeezes every dollar and pound in my case out of the fans.

I think he is an ok owner and will get it right from an ownership point of view one day.

[ChiefPowhatan17]

I put He's OK. This off season he has been really good as far as not making too many moves. Last year I was concerned, cause everytime that we go overboard in Free Agency, we have a bad season, ie 2000 or the 100 million dollar team. I think he has calmed down, hopefully now we can build a championship team, starting with 2007.

Also, I would rather have an owner willing to get players here. Some teams won't spend the money. We are lucky. Now let's build a championship dynasty team.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

He does everything he can to get us a championship and brought Joe Jackson Gibbs back, enough for me to love him.

[skinfan43]

He does everything he can to get us a championship and brought Joe Jackson Gibbs back, enough for me to love him.
Even though Snyder hasn't gotten a true GM yet, I still agree with you JJT...Snyder getting Gibbs to come back for one more try is still awesome beyond belief, I will never forget the feeling when I read that HUGE W.Post article the morning the story broke. Hope what I thought back then comes true a.s.a.p;)

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

Even though Snyder hasn't gotten a true GM yet, I still agree with you JJT...Snyder getting Gibbs to come back for one more try is still awesome beyond belief, I will never forget the feeling when I read that HUGE W.Post article the morning the story broke. Hope what I thought back then comes true a.s.a.p;)
Yeah, that's the thing that I would criticize Snyder THESE DAYS. Getting a true GM, and leave him and Gibbs run the football show.

[skinfan43]

Hmm, lemme see if I can come to a decision on this.

I believe Snyder has come a long way in terms of ownership. I also believe he has a long way to go in terms of ownership. We all love the passion he has for the organization and money he is willing to put into the team. Those are pluses in my book in terms of ownership.

As for how he runs the organization, well it started off real rough for him and he's still paying that bill to the media. It's probably one he'll be paying forever. There were bad decisions in player acquisitions, coaching hirings and firings and the handling of the fans (trying to make one credit usable for tickets). Has there been improvement in this area, well yes and no. We're smarter about player acquisition and I don't think anyone questioned him bringing back Joe Gibbs. But, there are things like the Stubhub deal that seems to impact (in a negative way) his growth as an owner. Also, the way the Briggs story was reported was interesting because what I read made it seem like this was something he initiated and it was bought to Gibbs attention. That would not sit well with me. You can't say all football matters are decided by Gibbs but you throw something out there hoping to get his approval. Well, being the owner you probably would get his approval since you write his checks, but you get my point.

There also that side that we don't hear about much where he does things for charities and the community. He had a number of the football fields at local high schools repaired and reburished, he sits as chair for a number of charities and I have attended and performed at several of the events at his request.

With that said, I'll have to say I'm neutral on him at the moment.
Good insights Big Mike.
Nice to know you ain't just a professional Grey Gooser;)

[BluCollarGuy]

I am neutral. Dan wants to win and he will do anything to win, you gotta respect that. But he also milks every last penny out of the fans who attend the games, and IMO he goes a little overboard to the point where it is negatively impacting the atmosphere at the games.

Losing has a negative impact on the atmosphere.

Rosenhaus didn't mention it to the press, as was reported, That was Snyder. Given the continued irrational behavior of this FO, I have no reason to believe that the notably grounded Gibbs would be coming up with all of this.

Jay Glazer started the whole thing(public talk about it), after being with Snyder in a bar when Rosie approached Snyder and started talking about the trade. Snyder then said he had to talk to Gibbs and see if he was interested. I heard Glazer tell the story, so I know this is how it happened. Snyder didn't start anything with the Briggs deal.

My whole point for voting the way I did is, i don't want to hear the friggin argument of SDan will sopend the money, Dan will put up the bucks. We knwo that and maybe that is part of a wider problem. My whole deal is, since he took over wonership in 2000, we have been to the playoffs once, gone though 6 coaches and have a W/L record of 41-56 (Approx.) and it just seems to me that the organization is just completely dysfunctional.
And we had been winning SB's hand over fist the 7 years before he bought the team? He bought a team that never recovered from the freefall that came when Gibbs retired, and he has been learning to be an owner ever since.

I voted he's "Ok", cuz it's not all his fault.

I very much dislike his apparent disregard for the fans. That bothers me a lot. But, I don't have to PAY for anything and I still love my Skins.

[bgforever]

Man I love Dan Snyder's approach and what he's doing for ACCESS for the fans. As much as other teams promo their players at certain events, he is all year round giving us internet tv access, cable and satellite and radio access (constantly!). He's allowing interaction year round with a touch closer to the beat of the team, allowing some of the up and coming beat writers (Husband, HR bloggers to have a say in the process of players in HOF and opinionated polls that sheds light on subjects).

True Snyder can be expensive in stadium concessions, but his stores are reasonable compared to some out here in the midwest!

He gives us updates, that he DOESN'T have to, and Joe Gibbs has been extremely good at juggling the FO and the fans, to put the Skins back where they should, respectable and running in good order these days at the FO!

It started with the owner.

[wide_awake]

That is money out of his pocket. Because if he didn't want to do it, it would be in his pockets. So, it is coming out of his pockets.

No, it's revenue generated, and reinvested back into the franchise. He is running a business, it's not as simple as you make it.

[Live4BurgandyandGold]

Daniel Snyder is the devil. His passion may be nice however his lack of knowledge of the game and giant ego continue to perpetuate the downward spiral of this team. As far as I'm concerned he is the crux of all our FO mistakes and mishaps. Until he straightens up or gets out of the way our beloved team is going to stay in disarray. That or hes just plain bad luck.

[bgforever]

Thanks BW! Your site is the stuff!

I just clocked into it and you are so right! Bandwagon, I remember that site helping me out of many stat jams and refreshing my historical brainwaves.

[skins111111]

gotta love him, he's a fan first and is learning from his mistakes. we are in for some very sucsessful years. besides he brought in Gibbs, who else coulda done that? He will do whatever it takes and he will go far as an owner. (and not just because he has so far to go:)

[skinsfan36]

i voted hes ok since he does everything he can to help the team,but overpays for players not worth it like deion,aa,etc...

[RedskinsDave]

Snyder's tried everything but the right way to win. He thinks he can reinvent the wheel and has proven he can't.

[joethefan]

unfortunaltely i voted seell danny sell....and here's why....

for Danny to be pure businessman in a area that he knew nothing and still knows nothing about, you can;t tell me that he did any research on what makes a good organization. The reason I say this is because, you cannot tell me that after almost 10 years, he still doesn't get it and refusese to do so...Hell it's like pac man saying after the 10 allgation of wrongdoing that "i've learned my lessen"...who's gonna believe you....If I wanted to buy a basketball team, I would have to perform many research projects in the area of want and will a city support a team as well as gather as much onfo as i can so I can produce a decent product for my fan base...what can I do to make my customers coming back... Danny's thing is that he brought a team with a true legacy with true diehard fans that will do almost anything to see their team win...I wonder if he could do this in Carolina or Cinci.....I just think the old "get the fans hyped up in the offseason and produce crap on the field", is getting old.

I will continue to beleive that if Joe can't fix it, if and when he rolls out, the fans will side with Joe and come against Danny. Joe knows what structure makes a winning organization...and to allow Danny to polute his mind by thinking that money is the answer is a crime to us fans that know how joe got it done before.....

I feel that he doesn't mind making the fans pay for all of his mistakes.....charging outragous prices for a trip to the park at Fed EX is crazy...I made a 3 day trip to Dallas to watch a skins dallas game. That entire weekend, with everything included would have amounted to one game, taking my wife and my two youngest children to Fed Ex, with pretty good seats...that's just crazy to me....

So IMO if Danny doens't get it by now he won't get it...cause this formula isn't working and he never gave the forlula with having a coach a GM and an owner a real shot (when marty was here) not that I cared for marty, but at least the structure was in place for a little while....

[BandWagon]

Of course, you never piss off the guy who signs your paychecks. But at the same hand, there also has to be a level of a grandfatherly figure dynamic to the relationship. Gibbs has to know that he would have to kill Snyder's mom to get fired so he can do as he wants, but at the same hand, there's no need to sour the relationship unnecessarily by calling snyder out in public.
True, I thought about that also. Plus it's not Gibbs' style to launch a full frontal assult. He's much more clever and psychological in his methods.

[BandWagon]

I just clocked into it and you are so right! Bandwagon, I remember that site helping me out of many stat jams and refreshing my historical brainwaves.

Wow, thanks!

[redskin_rich]

Anybody care to define the difference between ok and neutral? LOL!
That is where the majority of the votes are and I have yet to read what the difference is between those two options.

[MikeBass]

I think that by Snyder being young and a Redskin fan really hurt us when he first purchased the team but I thnk that he is learning and will become one of the best owners in football before it is all said and done.

He started with the Deione Sanders', Bruce Smith's and the Andre Reed's who he were fans of without thinking that they were past their primes but I think that he is showing improvement.

[joethefan]

I think that by Snyder being young and a Redskin fan really hurt us when he first purchased the team but I thnk that he is learning and will become one of the best owners in football before it is all said and done.

He started with the Deione Sanders', Bruce Smith's and the Andre Reed's who he were fans of without thinking that they were past their primes but I think that he is showing improvement.

well tell me why is it almost 6 years later and he's still making the same errors...IMO he doesn't want to change his philosophy.....and having no one in that 3some that can say no, is what has hurt us thus far....the only reason we are shwoing some type of restraint is because we have to...it's not like we're 20 mill under the cap.....thank GOD we're not then we'd see the usual

[smoak]

Anybody care to define the difference between ok and neutral? LOL!
That is where the majority of the votes are and I have yet to read what the difference is between those two options.

I didn't vote for "ok" b/c it is followed with an exclamation point. And I refuse to be nuetral on such a subject... So... to me the exclamation point was the difference.

[hail2skins]

No, it's revenue generated, and reinvested back into the franchise. He is running a business, it's not as simple as you make it.and where would that revenue go if he didn't put it back in the team?

[hail2skins]

unfortunaltely i voted seell danny sell....and here's why....

for Danny to be pure businessman in a area that he knew nothing and still knows nothing about, you can;t tell me that he did any research on what makes a good organization. The reason I say this is because, you cannot tell me that after almost 10 years, he still doesn't get it and refusese to do so...Hell it's like pac man saying after the 10 allgation of wrongdoing that "i've learned my lessen"...who's gonna believe you....If I wanted to buy a basketball team, I would have to perform many research projects in the area of want and will a city support a team as well as gather as much onfo as i can so I can produce a decent product for my fan base...what can I do to make my customers coming back... Danny's thing is that he brought a team with a true legacy with true diehard fans that will do almost anything to see their team win...I wonder if he could do this in Carolina or Cinci.....I just think the old "get the fans hyped up in the offseason and produce crap on the field", is getting old.

I will continue to beleive that if Joe can't fix it, if and when he rolls out, the fans will side with Joe and come against Danny. Joe knows what structure makes a winning organization...and to allow Danny to polute his mind by thinking that money is the answer is a crime to us fans that know how joe got it done before.....

I feel that he doesn't mind making the fans pay for all of his mistakes.....charging outragous prices for a trip to the park at Fed EX is crazy...I made a 3 day trip to Dallas to watch a skins dallas game. That entire weekend, with everything included would have amounted to one game, taking my wife and my two youngest children to Fed Ex, with pretty good seats...that's just crazy to me....

So IMO if Danny doens't get it by now he won't get it...cause this formula isn't working and he never gave the forlula with having a coach a GM and an owner a real shot (when marty was here) not that I cared for marty, but at least the structure was in place for a little while....Sounds like your issues are with Joe more so than Snyder. Joe has the power to implement that structure unlike other coaches we've had.

[rskinsfan10]

I believe that Gibbs gets too much of a pass for the decisions that turn out to be the wrong ones. Whenever something doesn't look/sound right, it is always attributed to either Snyder or Cerrato, and I simply don't believe that to be the case.

[helimech24]

I am pretty neutral with him. He always seems to make a great move followed by a horrible move during the offseason. So it is about even, lol.

[RedskinsDave]

I believe that Gibbs gets too much of a pass for the decisions that turn out to be the wrong ones. Whenever something doesn't look/sound right, it is always attributed to either Snyder or Cerrato, and I simply don't believe that to be the case.

Agreed. I don't know why the buck is either passed to Snyder or people just ignore the mistakes made by Gibbs. I honestly think if he knew what he was doing, Joe would have let Vinny go and brought in someone better. All signs point to the FACT that Gibbs took the wheel and is steering the boat in the exact same direction Snyder was going without him.

[redskin_rich]

Agreed. I don't know why the buck is either passed to Snyder or people just ignore the mistakes made by Gibbs. I honestly think if he knew what he was doing, Joe would have let Vinny go and brought in someone better. All signs point to the FACT that Gibbs took the wheel and is steering the boat in the exact same direction Snyder was going without him.
Gibbs isn't the one doling out the huge contracts, Snyder is. Everyone makes mistakes when evaluating players but when we do it is exaggerated by the amount of money involved.

[bergiemoore]

Gibbs isn't the one doling out the huge contracts, Snyder is. Everyone makes mistakes when evaluating players but when we do it is exaggerated by the amount of money involved.

I think that this an excellent point, and one that folks need to keep in mind when criticizing our FO.

Danny's primary responsibility is contract negotiations, Vinny's is talent evaluation, and Gibbs is supposed to be final arbiter, and ultimate decision maker, when it comes to player acquisition. There is a significant amount of bleed over in these areas, and all affect each other. Mistakes made evaluating the talent will lead to poor acquisitions, and potentially overpaying the talent, as was the case with Arch. According to Arch, Danny offered him twice what he was expecting. This wouldn't have happened if our talent evaluation weren't out of wack, and the guy responsible for deciding who were to acquire had done his homework about what this defense actually needed (a safety who could cover).

Danny has had help with his bungles. He is by no means blameless, but he's not solely responsible for our 5-11 record in 06, either.

[rskinsfan10]

Gibbs isn't the one doling out the huge contracts, Snyder is. Everyone makes mistakes when evaluating players but when we do it is exaggerated by the amount of money involved.That is true, but that also is a product of this coaching staff getting what they want as players are concerned, and to assure that they get that coveted item that is listed on eBay, Snyder simply uses the BUY IT NOW button to avoid the bidding war. Personally, I find more fault with the staff then I do the ownership.

[RedskinsDave]

Gibbs isn't the one doling out the huge contracts, Snyder is. Everyone makes mistakes when evaluating players but when we do it is exaggerated by the amount of money involved.

I know. My point is people act as though Gibbs gets a pass on the contracts until we blame Snyder and then it's back on Gibbs but no one really gets the blame. The simple fact is the team is not well run and hasn't been since Snyder bought the team. Gibbs taking a chair and a title haven't changed anything, even the way the players are treated or the team is coached.

[redskin_rich]

Yeah, I agree with all of the last few posts. There is plenty of blame to go around for everybody when this team doesn't live up to expectations. And the credit has to go to all when they do.

The thing that irks me about this coaching staff is that they are the highest paid and among the best staffs in the league, yet they want to buy all these ready to go players. How about doing your job and coaching up young players?

[rskinsfan10]

The thing that irks me about this coaching staff is that they are the highest paid and among the best staffs in the league, yet they want to buy all these ready to go players. How about doing your job and coaching up young players?It's becoming increasingly clear to me that either they have no interest in doing so or simply lack the patience. If you don't get it done ASAP around here, you are placed in the corner with a cap on your head and ignored.

[dj_stouty]

That is true, but that also is a product of this coaching staff getting what they want as players are concerned, and to assure that they get that coveted item that is listed on eBay, Snyder simply uses the BUY IT NOW button to avoid the bidding war. Personally, I find more fault with the staff then I do the ownership.

Like this one?

http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/bin_15x54.gif (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/sports/photos/popups/dolphins/2005preseason/dolphins_bears_0808/images/093.jpg)

(Feel free to click it)

[bergiemoore]

It's becoming increasingly clear to me that either they have no interest in doing so or simply lack the patience. If you don't get it done ASAP around here, you are placed in the corner with a cap on your head and ignored.

I think that's a little heavy on the hyperbole, but I agree with the overall sentiment. At the same time, I am happy with the coaches commitment to JC's development, as well as their intention to keep McIntosh on the roster. I think that the Lindsey firing may have had something to do with McIntosh's lack of development. Obviously, since McIntosh is still here, the top brass thinks that his lack of development was at least partially the coach's fault.

[rskinsfan10]

Like this one?

http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/bin_15x54.gif (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/sports/photos/popups/dolphins/2005preseason/dolphins_bears_0808/images/093.jpg)

(Feel free to click it)Perfect!

[rskinsfan10]

I think that's a little heavy on the hyperbole, but I agree with the overall sentiment. At the same time, I am happy with the coaches commitment to JC's development, as well as their intention to keep McIntosh on the roster. I think that the Lindsey firing may have had something to do with McIntosh's lack of development. Obviously, since McIntosh is still here, the top brass thinks that his lack of development was at least partially the coach's fault.JC doesn't count because he was never picked to start from day one of arriving here, and that is a position where history shows it's better to take your time with. I find Rocky to be the perfect example. You don't give up what you gave up to move up in the second round to draft a special teams stud, all the while the guy that is starting in front of him is sucking up the joint. Said player sucked so much that he lost his job to a certain LBer that many here felt wasn't worth crap. I am also of the belief that the only reason why Rocky isn't on his way to Chicago is because the uproar that would have occurred would have been deafening after so much was invested in him.

[BurgundyNGold]

JC doesn't count because he was never picked to start from day one of arriving here, and that is a position where history shows it's better to take your time with. I find Rocky to be the perfect example. You don't give up what you gave up to move up in the second round to draft a special teams stud, all the while the guy that is starting in front of him is sucking up the joint. Said player sucked so much that he lost his job to a certain LBer that many here felt wasn't worth crap. I am also of the belief that the only reason why Rocky isn't on his way to Chicago is because the uproar that would have occurred would have been deafening after so much was invested in him.
And the mob would have been well within their rights to do so. We gave up a lot to move up and get Rocky. I think a lot of people want to see what he can do.

[RedskinsDave]

I think that's a little heavy on the hyperbole, but I agree with the overall sentiment. At the same time, I am happy with the coaches commitment to JC's development, as well as their intention to keep McIntosh on the roster. I think that the Lindsey firing may have had something to do with McIntosh's lack of development. Obviously, since McIntosh is still here, the top brass thinks that his lack of development was at least partially the coach's fault.

Oh such commitment. They make Liz Taylor look good. They're committed to developing the QB they spent multiple picks on and who hasn't played half a season? Wow, impressive! They are keeping the LB they spent multiple picks on after one season? Again, talk about patience. Job can't hold a candle to them.

[Keino]

I agree with what you are saying Kenny with the exception of the last sentence. I don't believe that the team would have cared about the uproar of sending Rocky, and I would like to believe that we just excercised some restraint by not giving up too much in a potential trade.

[bergiemoore]

Oh such commitment. They make Liz Taylor look good. They're committed to developing the QB they spent multiple picks on and who hasn't played half a season? Wow, impressive! They are keeping the LB they spent multiple picks on after one season? Again, talk about patience. Job can't hold a candle to them.

:lol1:

Touche!

I would never characterize this FO as being anything less than a full blown case of ADD, however it is nice to see that at least a couple of projects, which were expensive, are still being developed. They could have pulled the same crap with Rocky that they pulled with Arch, and traded him. I'm glad that they didn't, and hope that they recognize that Rocky may fit into this system, one day. This is also the same FO that found Cooley. Hopefully, they'll recognize his importance to this team by handing him a contract extension in the near future.

[James F. Quinn]

Kind of amazing to see The Danny getting a solid "he's OK" vote from this or any board.

[Dept_of_Defense]

The only thing that I don't like about Snyder as of recent is that he's not upgrading our stadium. We need to get a Jumbotron. How can we have 91,000+ seats and no jumbotron? It's not like we don't have the money. It's not like we don't have the time. Other than that, I think Snyder has behaved since Joe Gibbs' return and most of the problems fall on Vinny Cerrato and the lack of an established GM.

[RedskinsDave]

The only thing that I don't like about Snyder as of recent is that he's not upgrading our stadium. We need to get a Jumbotron. How can we have 91,000+ seats and no jumbotron? It's not like we don't have the money. It's not like we don't have the time. Other than that, I think Snyder has behaved since Joe Gibbs' return and most of the problems fall on Vinny Cerrato and the lack of an established GM.

You mean a digital one? We have two screens it's just they suck.

[Chief Redskin]

I think you have to compare Daniel Snyder to the previous owner. Jack Kent Cooke was one of the BEST sports franchise owners of all time. He created a successful minor league baseball team in Canada. He helped market the game of hockey in America. He created the model for boxing pay-per view-events. He helped to build the Lakers dynasty by bringing in Wilt Chamberlain and then drafting Magic Johnson. Then he went through a bitter divorce and left L.A. He sold the Lakers and moved to Washington. He was already an owner of the Skins, but he became more involved when he moved to D.C.

I think Jack Kent Cooke was so successful in sports and in business because he understood that true greatness is achieved slowly... not overnight. He knew his employees limitations and he hired people based on their competencies. In addition, he empowered his employees by giving them room to do their job, and he did not meddle in their day-to-day work.

Daniel Snyder built Snyder Communications through a series of acquisitions and in less than 15 years sold it for a ton of money. He is a very crafty businessman, but stability has never been one of his strong points. I see Snyder as a guy who loves the attention he gets from being the Redskins owner. I see him as a guy who thinks he can succeed in any aspect of business. In one aspect he has succeeded with the Skins, they are the most profitable sports franchise in North America. However, his track record with the Redskins fans can be nothing but a disappointment.

We had a great owner in Jack Kent Cooke, who knew how to build a dynasty. Now we have an impatient "get rich quick" owner who has been more concerned with fattening his pockets

[wide_awake]

and where would that revenue go if he didn't put it back in the team?

From a business perspective, he has more incentive to reinvest the money (avoiding taxes and whatnot).

And the fact that he has all this money to blow at free agents is because he has such a loyal fan base. It's because of the fans, and their dedication. Nothing to do with how well he runs the organization, because you put him in an organization like the Buffalo Bills, Carolina Panthers, or Houston Texans, and there is no way he could afford to be so reckless and stupid.

[bgforever]

From a business perspective, he has more incentive to reinvest the money (avoiding taxes and whatnot).

And the fact that he has all this money to blow at free agents is because he has such a loyal fan base. It's because of the fans, and their dedication. Nothing to do with how well he runs the organization, because you put him in an organization like the Buffalo Bills, Carolina Panthers, or Houston Texans, and there is no way he could afford to be so reckless and stupid.


This is so true. I have to digress from my statement of it beginning with him, at least in that regard, but he really did open up the channels for access for "out of towners" , like myself. It was so good, he won an NFL award for it, so I won' t deny that. However, in regards so to Joe Gibbs juggling the fans and FO "extremely well", well that is an overstatement. Its more like he is doing ok, this year - the best since Cooke passed away. Cerrato was leaned on heavily by Snyder to build a team, and he was 50-50, etc at doing it, and it IS true about Snyder being a "flipper" in business, for quick profits.

So is this to say, Snyder's a BIG fan because he knows a jewel that fills his pockets with profits, or is he a fan gone wild.

[skinsfan36]

well now that i think about it ticket prices could come down a little

[joethefan]

It's becoming increasingly clear to me that either they have no interest in doing so or simply lack the patience. If you don't get it done ASAP around here, you are placed in the corner with a cap on your head and ignored.

kenny you are soo right...didn't it look mighty strange when we all saw rocky running on the field at the last minute last year to make that tackle...I think we realy do lack the patience and don't wish to coach guys up....remember defensively we worry and pay too much to scheme....as opposed to fundamentals...

[Dept_of_Defense]

You mean a digital one? We have two screens it's just they suck.
No I mean a gigantic Jumbotron. It's pretty much what all the stadiums are using right now. It looks like a huge plasma and is easy to view from all angles......even from the last row in the 400 sections. If I find a pic I'll post it. Anyways, we're probably one of only a handful of teams that still don't have one.

[Dept_of_Defense]

Here's a pic of a Jumbotron. Probably the biggest in the states right now. Belongs to the University of Texas. 55 feet tall and 134 feet wide of glorious high definition replays for your viewing pleasure. I'm not saying we go all out and get something this big, but it'd be nice to have bigger screens than the ones we have. Matter of fact, if we just converted the screens that we have to HD, it would be a huge upgrade itself.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/jumbotron.jpg

[BandWagon]

Here's a pic of a Jumbotron. Probably the biggest in the states right now. Belongs to the University of Texas. 55 feet tall and 134 feet wide of glorious high definition replays for your viewing pleasure. I'm not saying we go all out and get something this big, but it'd be nice to have bigger screens than the ones we have. Matter of fact, if we just converted the screens that we have to HD, it would be a huge upgrade itself.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/jumbotron.jpg

Great, now I have to change my avatar...thanks Daktronics! :/ Oh yeah, a college stadium gets one of these before the second most profitable sports franchise in the world?? Thanks Danny....that's really great...

This project included the installation of what is now the Western hemisphere's largest high-definition video screen and the largest full-screen video board in the world. The centerpiece is a 55-ft tall and 134-ft wide; 7,370 square foot high-definition Daktronics LED scoreboard, aptly nicknamed Godzillatron by University of Texas fans.

[bgforever]

Great, now I have to change my avatar...thanks Daktronics! :/ Oh yeah, a college stadium gets one of these before the second most profitable sports franchise in the world?? Thanks Danny....that's really great...


:lol1: I picked up on that one liner about the avatar. Hilarious!

[MPCSkins]

He's alright. Get a GM.

[joethefan]

dallas is supposed to have the biggest screen frim 20 to 20....that is huge

[bgforever]

dallas is supposed to have the biggest screen frim 20 to 20....that is huge

gawd! oh well so much for needing Lenscrafters :rolleyes:

[Axegrinder]

After years of review....I wish that he would sell.
We're only as good as our record.Enough said.
It's too high of a price from the fans for poor to mediocre performance.
He's already achieved a negative reputation that doesn't look to change anytime soon.Unfortunately.....we're stuck with him.

[Hr fan]

Snyder doesn't run the FO, Gibbs does. I do note the irony that we wanted the skins to have a calm offseason and not have a spending splurge--we get that from the skins(make a couple good, cost effective signings)--and we're still upset lol.

The Briggs "trade" was offered by Snyder to Rosenhaus without either the 'Skins or the Bears FOs being aware of it. Heard a witness on Sirius that was aghast that the first call was to Cerrato, who contacted Chicago and THEN tried to contact Gibbs. Gibbs runs the FO BUT the Snyder/Cerrato combo makes any decision that they want w/o refering to Gibbs. Seems to me Gibbs is in charge of everything that the Danny doesn't want to get involved in, and that on personnel Danny trusts Cerrato more than JG. To my mind, JG has the title but Synder/Cerrato have the power. Sell, danny, sell!

[skins111111]

Great, now I have to change my avatar...thanks Daktronics! :/ Oh yeah, a college stadium gets one of these before the second most profitable sports franchise in the world?? Thanks Danny....that's really great...

send your proposel to the Dan.....don't forget we want 4 of them:)

[RedskinsDave]

Where do you guys propose we put a gigantic screen? You want to give up your seats so there's room or you want it 90 feet in the air above the stadium? I go to watch the game not the replay and would be happy if the two screens we have were HD.

[Dept_of_Defense]

Where do you guys propose we put a gigantic screen? You want to give up your seats so there's room or you want it 90 feet in the air above the stadium? I go to watch the game not the replay and would be happy if the two screens we have were HD.
I wouldn't feel bad if we took out some of the 400 level seating at each endzone.

[BurgundyNGold]

I wouldn't feel bad if we took out some of the 400 level seating at each endzone.
Unless those were your seats. ;)

[BurgundyNGold]

Where do you guys propose we put a gigantic screen? You want to give up your seats so there's room or you want it 90 feet in the air above the stadium? I go to watch the game not the replay and would be happy if the two screens we have were HD.
I'd like to replace the side-by-side displays with one, massive HD screen per end zone. It's certainly doable, although Danny would have to do a little bit of re-engineering on either end.

Here's a better suggestion (or 6) to up the gameday experience:

1) Drop that idiot announcer
2) Stop "leaving the mic on"
3) Stop plyagin so damned many commercials during the intermissions
4) Stop cutting off the Funky 4 after 15 seconds because we used up all of their time for #3
5) Find that recently fired jinx of an announcer from #1 and drive a stake through his heart, just to make sure he won't come back.
6) Show ALL replays, not just the good ones for our side.

[BurgundyNGold]

BTW, I can't believe the love that Dan Snyder is stil getting. His track record is shameful as an owner. I'm hearing a lot of "at least he tries" and "he's not afraid to spend money". Those things might be true, but I don't see how they translate into such a favorable rating when the product under his tutlage has been nothing short of awful for most of his reign.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

BTW, I can't believe the love that Dan Snyder is stil getting. His track record is shameful as an owner. I'm hearing a lot of "at least he tries" and "he's not afraid to spend money". Those things might be true, but I don't see how they translate into such a favorable rating when the product under his tutlage has been nothing short of awful for most of his reign.
I was about to say the same thing..it's quite interesting how an owner with his (horrible) record has an almost 2:1 good to bad rating ratio.

[BurgundyNGold]

I was about to say the same thing..it's quite interesting how an owner with his (horrible) record has an almost 2:1 good to bad rating ratio.
Chalk it up to the power of marketing, I guess. :D

[redskin_rich]

I wouldn't feel bad if we took out some of the 400 level seating at each endzone.
The current screens are in the lower section... I happen to sit in the south end zone of the 400 section, 7 rows up. If my seats were eliminated, I had better get an upgrade.
If anything, they should take out some of those yellow(club) seats that are always at least 1/3 empty anyway. But since those are overpriced and are not part of the revenue sharing, there is absolutely no chance of that happening.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

BTW, I can't believe the love that Dan Snyder is stil getting. His track record is shameful as an owner. I'm hearing a lot of "at least he tries" and "he's not afraid to spend money". Those things might be true, but I don't see how they translate into such a favorable rating when the product under his tutlage has been nothing short of awful for most of his reign.
Because if he is awful then what are the Bidwell's or the Ford's? He is certainly at least one if not two notches above them. Hence, he is not great or even good, but somewhere in the middle.

[redskin_rich]

Because if he is awful then what are the Bidwell's or the Ford's? He is certainly at least one if not two notches above them. Hence, he is not great or even good, but somewhere in the middle.
Yeah, even though I gave a negative vote, I am not on the Snyder should sell bandwagon. We could do worse. We could get an equally money hungry owner who doesn't give two [Spencored]'s about the Redskins. And with the value of this franchise now, that is the most likely scenario.

[RedskinsDave]

We couldn't do worse. Bidwell and Ford have owned their teams forever and got used to taking money and running. There is no "newer" owner who is remotely as bad as Snyder.

[redskin_rich]

We couldn't do worse. Bidwell and Ford have owned their teams forever and got used to taking money and running. There is no "newer" owner who is remotely as bad as Snyder.
I think things would have been worse had Milstein been the principal owner.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

We couldn't do worse. Bidwell and Ford have owned their teams forever and got used to taking money and running. There is no "newer" owner who is remotely as bad as Snyder.
You may want to run that by Browns fans first.

[RedskinsDave]

We have had one playoff win to his credit, too many coaches to count, an idea that they can spend and trade draft picks and it will work when the successful teams don't do that and still some people think we can do worse. Unbelieveable.

[Keino]

BTW, I can't believe the love that Dan Snyder is stil getting. His track record is shameful as an owner. I'm hearing a lot of "at least he tries" and "he's not afraid to spend money". Those things might be true, but I don't see how they translate into such a favorable rating when the product under his tutlage has been nothing short of awful for most of his reign.


I will attempt to answer this, based upon my favorable rating for Snyder. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there is not a an answer that I think best describes my position.

When Snyder bought the team, he bought a dysfunctional franchise. One that was severly impacted by the 1992 transition to the new rules and the salary cap, as the Redskins at the time had one of the highest payrolls and an aging roster. In addition to the dysfunctional franchise, he bought a stadium that was an ugly, rushed cement monstrosity, that had of all things a stadiums shouldn't have.....access issues (Which he immediately worked with transportation and county officials to work toward a resolution).

Add to that, the NFL committee charged with approving the sale to Snyder's group dragged their feet well into the summer, an unprecedented move and one such disadvantage no new Ownership group has had to face. So, he has to basically work with the pieces he has in place (Which include a Norv Turner who could've set records for not performing to exepctations and Casserly), where most owners would have had the opportunity to bring in their own people. Norv exceeds expectations, so he is forced to basically stay with him and because the team was a botched snap on a 50 yard FG on the road from making the NFC Championsip, he thought what we all thought at the time....the team was close. So he made the mistake of Trying to add pieces to the team that could get us over the hump. It didn't work, and he learned a valuable lesson or two about roster assemblage and leaving football decisions to football guys.

I think that since the Spurrier debacle, and that is another instance in which, I don't fault Snyder. Spurrier was the hottest College coach and more than one team wanted him. Fast forward to 2004, when he hires Gibbs. At this point, it is clear to me that Snyder, no longer trying to make football decisions has entrusted the franchise to his football people....Gibbs and Cerrato. Now, at this point, I think Cerrato is probably not a very good football guy and so Snyder retaining him is a valid criticism.

I don't see the price gouging etc as valid criticisms at all. Every owner in the NFL is charging as much as they possibly can. In this area Snyder has an advantage in that he has a city whose support for his team rivals that of the most rabid college town.

Honestly, I don't think a team's performance on the field is really a great measure of the owner. I'm not saying it doesn't count, but I also think you have to factor in all of the conditions that lead to that on-field performance including those things which are not in the owner's power to control. I think the owner's primary duty is to keep the franchise viable financially and comeptetive financially. Here is where Dan Snyder has excelled as an owner.

Now there will be the inevitable Bob Craft and Jerry Jones (and to a lesser extent Jeffery Lorie) comparisons of newer ownership groups who have been successful. I'll tip my hat to Bob Craft. He has done it the right way, yet, he didn't face the same issues Snyder faced upon his acquisition of the franchise. Jones, however, deserves no more credit than Snyder. In fact, it can be argued that Cowboys' success under Jones is in spite of him, not because. The Herschel Walker trade and Jimmy Johnson are the main reasons for the Cowboys success in the 90's. A trade that simply would not have occurred in the Salary cap era. Since 96, the year after Jones appointed himself GM, this team has not won a playoff game and makes as questionable decisions as Snyder ever made.

So for me, I think Snyder is a good Owner, not a great owner, but is still learning. I think he has learned valuable lessons since 2000 and 2002, and I think his approach now is mostly stand back and write checks. If he has a failing now, it is the inability to say no to Joe Gibbs. Sure, I would like a better screen and a more consistant product on the field. But anyone who was at a Fed-Ex game it's first year and one recently will tell you that the experience is drastically different and better. Snyder deserves full credit for that, because he dumped his own money into enhancing the stadium.

[smoak]

Great post Keino! I think it is easy for folks to hide behind only the record as the banner for why Snyder isn't a good owner. He deserves a lot of criticism IMO, but rarely gets credit on anything. I think he just rubbed so many people the wrong way the first few years that it might take two or more Super Bowls for people to ome around on him.

And I hate to tell folks, but Snyder doesn't set the prices in the stadium, but rather the DEMAND does. If you turned in your seats today they'd have 10 people lined up to wrestle for the privledge to buy them. If you don't want to pay $8 for a beer, then don't. I don't drink or eat in the stadium b/c I think it is a waste. My food and beer and not only a lot cheaper, but they are a lot better and provide the excuse to tailgate all afternoon. Mark my words that they have some geek that runs analysis on the right price to cost everything in the building in order to maximize revenue. People are buying those $7 beers in mass quantities so don't be surprised if they are $8 next season. I'll be damned if I am paying $8 for a beer that probably costs them $.75.... But I don't blame them for pricing at the demand.

[RedskinsDave]

So how many years before you guys will hold Snyder accountable for giving us a winner? I sure as hell know we pay for one. If he is a good owner, I would hate to see a bad one.

[Keino]

So how many years before you guys will hold Snyder accountable for giving us a winner? I sure as hell know we pay for one. If he is a good owner, I would hate to see a bad one.


I don't know...After watching Abe Pollin Steal money for Decades with his miserly ways, I think My tolerance for a well intentioned but mis-guided guy who is loose with the wallet and wants his team to be a winner is pretty high..... it may take a while for me to get to the pitchforks and torches.

[RedskinsDave]

I don't know...After watching Abe Pollin Steal money for Decades with his miserly ways, I think My tolerance for a well intentioned but mis-guided guy who is loose with the wallet and wants his team to be a winner is pretty high..... it may take a while for me to get to the pitchforks and torches.

You are Snyder's dream come true.

[Keino]

You are Snyder's dream come true.

Perhaps I am. The thing is, he has owned the team less than a decade. But I'm also old enough to remember drafting Manute Bol and Mugsey Bogues in successive years and a 23 year playoff drought. I prefer to have Hope every year and Snyder's Redskins give us that.

[smoak]

Perhaps I am. The thing is, he has owned the team less than a decade. But I'm also old enough to remember drafting Manute Bol and Mugsey Bogues in successive years and a 23 year playoff drought. I prefer to have Hope every year and Snyder's Redskins give us that.

Exactly. It hasn't been all "wine and roses", but I'll take the errors of enthusiasm over complacency and indifference ANY day. Snyder isn't perfect as my vote indicates, but he is hardly the 7th offspring of Lucifer and a nameless prositute from dallass.

[RedskinsDave]

Perhaps I am. The thing is, he has owned the team less than a decade. But I'm also old enough to remember drafting Manute Bol and Mugsey Bogues in successive years and a 23 year playoff drought. I prefer to have Hope every year and Snyder's Redskins give us that.

What hope? I hope he doesn't raise ticket prices again? I hope he doesn't trade away all of our draft picks? I hope he doesn't overpay some crap player?

All things point to the 10-6 team two years ago being a fluke. I don't see a ton of hope coming from Ashburn unless I held a stake in the team. Funny how I know he will make money but I never know what the team will do on the field.

[dj_stouty]

Funny how I know he will make money but I never know what the team will do on the field.

Yes...but that is true of every NFL Owner. Thanks to the TV contract $, they all are guaranteed to make money every season, regardless if they sell out their stadiums or not.

Very few teams/owners can get any bit of stability out of their franchises anymore. Seems to me that the vast majority of fanbases (including our own) will just have to live with roller coaster performances year in and year out and pray for the best. There is a reason only three NFL teams have made it to the playoffs the last three consecutive years. (Indy, New England and Seattle) And only two others (SD and Denver) can also claim having 3 consecutive years with a winning record. That makes only 5 teams who have been consistant winners the past 3 seasons. That isn't very good.

[RedskinsDave]

Yes...but that is true of every NFL Owner. Thanks to the TV contract $, they all are guaranteed to make money every season, regardless if they sell out their stadiums or not.

Very few teams/owners can get any bit of stability out of their franchises anymore. Seems to me that the vast majority of fanbases (including our own) will just have to live with roller coaster performances year in and year out and pray for the best. There is a reason only three NFL teams have made it to the playoffs the last three consecutive years. (Indy, New England and Seattle) And only two others (SD and Denver) can also claim having 3 consecutive years with a winning record. That makes only 5 teams who have been consistant winners the past 3 seasons. That isn't very good.

I think since Snyder has figured out how to best stretch the salary cap, if he spent a few years building a team through the draft and then used his cash to keep those players together for a few years they would be a winner. He prefers to stay at the top of the cap each year.

It's the idiotic moves up the draft to get Campbell and McIntosh and the signings of last year that will keep this team mediocre at best year after year.

[BurgundyNGold]

Because if he is awful then what are the Bidwell's or the Ford's? He is certainly at least one if not two notches above them. Hence, he is not great or even good, but somewhere in the middle.
So, because the Bidwells and the Fords grade an "F", that means Danny is a "B"? That's insane. What ever happened to "D" (not passing but slightly above deplorable) or "C" (passing but ordinary, at best)?

If you look at the results on the field and Danny hasn't done that much better than those two. Plus, most of his undoing is a result of his a) meddling or b) greed. That doesn't even get into his c) incompetence, in which he is much the same as his comrades Bidwell and Ford.

[dj_stouty]

It's the idiotic moves up the draft to get Campbell and McIntosh and the signings of last year that will keep this team mediocre at best year after year.

Possibly...but I think Campbell will be worth it in the end. Not so sure of Rocky. Sometimes, trading up has been proven effective, such as the trade up for Chris Cooley.

But I agree about last year's trades, especially the one for Brandon Lloyd. I'd like a mulligan on that one.

[BurgundyNGold]

I will attempt to answer this, based upon my favorable rating for Snyder. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there is not a an answer that I think best describes my position.

...

That was a solid post, Keino, but I have to disagree with you on a few points:

1) Snyder bought an underachieving (yet stable) franchise. It was not dysfunctional, only yielding poop results.

2) I don't believe that what happened in 2000 was finding pieces to supplement a team that was close. Bringing in Jeff George to basically replace a playoff QB in Brad Johnson is a little more than finding a piece here and there. Firing Norv in season was a little more than looking for the right mix. ;)

3) The owner shouldn't get the credit, huh? Then why is The Squire so revered in this town and rememberd so fondly as a great owner in NFL circles? Because the organization lives and dies by its owner. Owners who do well deserve the praise, ones that don't deserve an honest asessment and poor marks.

I do not think Snyder is a good owner. He is a C to D rated owner. He is getting better because he used to be a solid D, shading towards F. As long as he thinks that he can be part of a GM troika, he will never be better than a C because we will never win on a consistent basis. I shudder to think what he would be if Gibbs wasn't here.

[BurgundyNGold]

Great post Keino! I think it is easy for folks to hide behind only the record as the banner for why Snyder isn't a good owner. He deserves a lot of criticism IMO, but rarely gets credit on anything. I think he just rubbed so many people the wrong way the first few years that it might take two or more Super Bowls for people to ome around on him.

And I hate to tell folks, but Snyder doesn't set the prices in the stadium, but rather the DEMAND does. If you turned in your seats today they'd have 10 people lined up to wrestle for the privledge to buy them. If you don't want to pay $8 for a beer, then don't. I don't drink or eat in the stadium b/c I think it is a waste. My food and beer and not only a lot cheaper, but they are a lot better and provide the excuse to tailgate all afternoon. Mark my words that they have some geek that runs analysis on the right price to cost everything in the building in order to maximize revenue. People are buying those $7 beers in mass quantities so don't be surprised if they are $8 next season. I'll be damned if I am paying $8 for a beer that probably costs them $.75.... But I don't blame them for pricing at the demand.
OK, I'll bite. What should Snyder get credit for? Charging for training camp maybe?

[Keino]

Well I happen to think that last year was the fluke and that 2005 was not. This off-season we have done (And Im ot attributing any of this to Snyder BTW) the following: Added a True MLB moving Marshall back to WLB. We have added experienced depth to the CB position and substantially upgraded, and we have gotten rid of our biggest mistake from last year in Archuletta, and doing so in such a way that our cap wasn't severly hit. Also and you heard it here first, expect Lloyd, our other bad signing to be packaged and dealt on drft day. We have our Young Franchise QB developing his timing with our WRs and he is only getting better and we have a good solid nucleus on Offense.

I think there is plenty to hopeful for, and as Long as Joe Gibbs is involved I don't think we can be counted out prior to the season.

[BurgundyNGold]

Perhaps I am. The thing is, he has owned the team less than a decade. But I'm also old enough to remember drafting Manute Bol and Mugsey Bogues in successive years and a 23 year playoff drought. I prefer to have Hope every year and Snyder's Redskins give us that.
Holding Snyder up against Pollin might make Snyder look better, but that doesn't mean he's good. That more an indictment of Pollin. ;)

[Keino]

That was a solid post, Keino, but I have to disagree with you on a few points:

1) Snyder bought an underachieving (yet stable) franchise. It was not dysfunctional, only yielding poop results.

2) I don't believe that what happened in 2000 was finding pieces to supplement a team that was close. Bringing in Jeff George to basically replace a playoff QB in Brad Johnson is a little more than finding a piece here and there. Firing Norv in season was a little more than looking for the right mix. ;)

3) The owner shouldn't get the credit, huh? Then why is The Squire so revered in this town and rememberd so fondly as a great owner in NFL circles? Because the organization lives and dies by its owner. Owners who do well deserve the praise, ones that don't deserve an honest asessment and poor marks.

I do not think Snyder is a good owner. He is a C to D rated owner. He is getting better because he used to be a solid D, shading towards F. As long as he thinks that he can be part of a GM troika, he will never be better than a C because we will never win on a consistent basis. I shudder to think what he would be if Gibbs wasn't here.

I think we were dysfunctional. We had no ral direction with the ownership situation unsettled for about 2 years.

With regard to 2000, It was clear to many that Johnson's arm lost zip at the end of the year. Bringing in George is one of the mistakes I don't think he would be apt to repeat. Again, I think all of those moves were misguided but well intentioned and we haven't seen another off-season like that one.

I never said that an owner doesn't get the credit. I said the team's performance is not the most significant indicator of the Owner's performance. People love the Squire because he opened up his wallet and would spend what is necessary to win (and the fact we won, but most attribute that success to Beathard and Gibbs). He wrote the checks and got out of the football people's way. He also owned the team under vastly different circumstances, and I tend to think that Snyder's approach would have served him well with no salary cap, as they did the Squire.

While you are shuddering to think about what would happen if Gibbs wasn't here, be sure to remember that Gibbs has had final say on every personnel matter since 2004. I thank Snyder for giving the man an open checkbook.

[Keino]

Holding Snyder up against Pollin might make Snyder look better, but that doesn't mean he's good. That more an indictment of Pollin. ;)

Sure, but it is also a contrast of styles and if I have to choose one, Gimme Snyder's all day every day. Pollin's is not so dissimilar to that of Bidwell, or Ralph Wilson and I'm sure that the Redskins under Snyder have been more successful than either of those 2.

[BurgundyNGold]

I think we were dysfunctional. We had no ral direction with the ownership situation unsettled for about 2 years.

With regard to 2000, It was clear to many that Johnson's arm lost zip at the end of the year. Bringing in George is one of the mistakes I don't think he would be apt to repeat. Again, I think all of those moves were misguided but well intentioned and we haven't seen another off-season like that one.
To paraphrase Jurassic Park, I don't blame people for their mistakes but I expect them to be held accountable for them. I wouldn't expect Snyder to know that Johnson would win a Super Bowl a few years later. But that's precisely why he shouldn't be involved in football decisions. What did he learn from this or any of his other personnel botches or meddling decisions? Apparently nothing because he's still doing it (read Lance Briggs).

As for Snyder's intentions, this isn't Major League. I don't hand out points for owners being well intentioned and neither should you. Noting that good intentions should be a prerequisite to ownership should go without saying.

I never said that an owner doesn't get the credit. I said the team's performance is not the most significant indicator of the Owner's performance. People love the Squire because he opened up his wallet and would spend what is necessary to win (and the fact we won, but most attribute that success to Beathard and Gibbs). He wrote the checks and got out of the football people's way. He also owned the team under vastly different circumstances, and I tend to think that Snyder's approach would have served him well with no salary cap, as they did the Squire.

While you are shuddering to think about what would happen if Gibbs wasn't here, be sure to remember that Gibbs has had final say on every personnel matter since 2004. I thank Snyder for giving the man an open checkbook.
The bolded part is why we will never win consistently under Snyder. He can't seem to get this through his thick skull.

As for Gibbs, he is an executive. He hires the best people and let's them do their job. Usually that works if you hire the right people. He didn't hire the existing FO structure, he inherited it. So, saying that Gibbs has the final call, while technically correct, is not entirely accurate. Gibbs doesn't handle much in the way of personnel decisions at all. That's Vinny and, sadly, Danny. By the time it comes to Gibbs, he has to hope that Vinny and the Meddler have done their job well, which, they never have.

[BurgundyNGold]

Sure, but it is also a contrast of styles and if I have to choose one, Gimme Snyder's all day every day. Pollin's is not so dissimilar to that of Bidwell, or Ralph Wilson and I'm sure that the Redskins under Snyder have been more successful than either of those 2.
The choice is between arsenic and cyanide. You're just choosing the one that smells like almonds.

[RedskinsDave]

Naming Gibbs the team president did nothing but pass the buck. Snyder is still involved in day to day roster, draft and FA conversations. No new personnel guy was brought in and the same attitude toward draft picks and free agents persists. We changed horses midstream but are still crossing the same river of ineptitude.

[Keino]

To paraphrase Jurassic Park, I don't blame people for their mistakes but I expect them to be held accountable for them. I wouldn't expect Snyder to know that Johnson would win a Super Bowl a few years later. But that's precisely why he shouldn't be involved in football decisions. What did he learn from this or any of his other personnel botches or meddling decisions? Apparently nothing because he's still doing it (read Lance Briggs).

As for Snyder's intentions, this isn't Major League. I don't hand out points for owners being well intentioned and neither should you. Noting that good intentions should be a prerequisite to ownership should go without saying.


The bolded part is why we will never win consistently under Snyder. He can't seem to get this through his thick skull.

As for Gibbs, he is an executive. He hires the best people and let's them do their job. Usually that works if you hire the right people. He didn't hire the existing FO structure, he inherited it. So, saying that Gibbs has the final call, while technically correct, is not entirely accurate. Gibbs doesn't handle much in the way of personnel decisions at all. That's Vinny and, sadly, Danny. By the time it comes to Gibbs, he has to hope that Vinny and the Meddler have done their job well, which, they never have.

What should I read inot about Lance Briggs? If anything, the way that situation was handled is evidence that maybe he has learned from his past. They came to a reasonable agreement in principle, made and offer and told chicago to take it or leave it. But there's one point you and Dave are missing....These aren't Snyder moves they are Gibbs moves. Gibbs has the freedom to change the structure, but it works for him (though I would expect to see major changes if we have another season like 2006). It wasn't Snyder that pursued Archuletta or Lloyd it was Gibbs. It wasn't Snyder who traded for Rocky and Campbell, that was Gibbs.

And hell yes intentions matter, see my Abe Pollin example. I've lived in the city with a owner who neglected his franchise except when it was time to cash checks. I find that entirely unacceptable especially when compared to a guy who wants to win and is willing to spend whatever to accomplish that end.

[Keino]

Naming Gibbs the team president did nothing but pass the buck. Snyder is still involved in day to day roster, draft and FA conversations. No new personnel guy was brought in and the same attitude toward draft picks and free agents persists. We changed horses midstream but are still crossing the same river of ineptitude.

What is this based on? Everythign I've read or heard says that Gibbs is the guy with the final say and that Snyder writes checks and helps the negotiation process with the agents.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Naming Gibbs the team president did nothing but pass the buck. Snyder is still involved in day to day roster, draft and FA conversations. No new personnel guy was brought in and the same attitude toward draft picks and free agents persists. We changed horses midstream but are still crossing the same river of ineptitude.
Do you think Gibbs is lying when he says he makes the final roster decisions? I don't get how an upstanding man like Gibbs says time and time again that he is making the final decisions and then everyone else says something different.

Let's make this perfectly clear so there is no more misunderstanding. Gibbs is our GM. Vinny and the scouts get the information on the players Gibbs requests. Danny and his cap guy negotiate the contracts for the players Gibbs wants.

The only arguments left to make (and very valid arguments at that) are that Snyder gives too much money/years to the players Gibbs chooses and Vinny and the scouts are not giving complete information to allow Gibbs to make a truly informed judgment.

But the decisions are made by Gibbs.

[redskin_rich]

Though Snyder is not the cheapskate that Pollin is, I do see similarities in their style. Pollin was loyal to Unseld forever, even though he was inept in his job. Now think about Danny and Vinny.
Pollin finally diminishes Unseld's role with the team to bring in a past legend, in MJ. Kind of like Danny hiring Gibbs...
I only hope Danny does the next thing that Pollin did, in finally hiring a solid GM.

[smoak]

OK, I'll bite. What should Snyder get credit for? Charging for training camp maybe?

With the exception of Norv Turner, he has offered full financial support to every coaching regime. He has made mistake on identifying the RIGHT players in the 2000 debacle, but ever since he has been mostly hands off by all FACTUAL accounts. The draft parties, scrimmages, and other fan events are all low cost ways for Snyder to market his product while still extending an olive branch to the fanbase. I love the stuff and it didn't exist before he bought the team

Re: prices, I gaurantee you if you took FedEx and slammed it smack down in most NFL cities that Snyder wouldn't/couldn't chart what he does today. I think it is short-sighted to blame him for the prices is a fool when you see 90M+ march in and out of Fedex every Sunday. Parking is outrageous, but you know what? We are on a 10 year wait just for the "privledge" of having parking. You have to change demand to impact the prices and the demand is always going to be there for the Redskins.

Nobody is voting Snyder for owner of the decade (or even month), but I'm also not willing to send him to the guillotine either.

[RedskinsDave]

What is this based on? Everythign I've read or heard says that Gibbs is the guy with the final say and that Snyder writes checks and helps the negotiation process with the agents.

You can believe that if you'd like. Even if it is Gibbs' final say, the mere fact that Snyder has any say and NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING has changed since Gibbs received his title convince me my opinion is correct.

But even if I were to say Gibbs has the final say now I would have to call him a failure too. He came in a bought Snyder's way hook, line and sinker. If he does have all the say as some of you think, then this is the first time in his life he is a moron. He's been a success for many years in many things and suddenly he comes in to work for a laughingstock owner and doesn't change anything? NOT A THING.

[dj_stouty]

All I know is that it wasn't Danny who walked up to Gregg Williams and started talking defensive x's and o's with him and sold him on how Archuletta would be a great addition for his defense. The idea probably started with GW...it got final approval by Joe...and the deal was worked out by Danny & Vinny. I really can't blame Danny for Arch being a total bust in DC.

These assistant Head Coaches (or whatever Joe is calling them these days) need to be better talent evaluators and start getting guys who A.) Can actually fit the system and B.) Can actually play football outside that system. At a minimum, they need to stop getting specialty players like Arch (run stuffing Safety) or Lloyd (acrobatic highlight catches) and start getting football players.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

You can believe that if you'd like. Even if it is Gibbs' final say, the mere fact that Snyder has any say and NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING has changed since Gibbs received his title convince me my opinion is correct.

But even if I were to say Gibbs has the final say now I would have to call him a failure too. He came in a bought Snyder's way hook, line and sinker. If he does have all the say as some of you think, then this is the first time in his life he is a moron. He's been a success for many years in many things and suddenly he comes in to work for a laughingstock owner and doesn't change anything? NOT A THING.

Agreed. I don't know why the buck is either passed to Snyder or people just ignore the mistakes made by Gibbs. I honestly think if he knew what he was doing, Joe would have let Vinny go and brought in someone better. All signs point to the FACT that Gibbs took the wheel and is steering the boat in the exact same direction Snyder was going without him.


I am so confused by what you're saying. Here are two quotes from you in this very thread that completely contradict one another. I think you have so much venom toward Snyder that you're view is getting clouded.

[RedskinsDave]

I am so confused by what you're saying. Here are two quotes from you in this very thread that completely contradict one another. I think you have so much venom toward Snyder that you're view is getting clouded.

How do those contradict one another at all?

[bwparker]

I am so confused by what you're saying. Here are two quotes from you in this very thread that completely contradict one another. I think you have so much venom toward Snyder that you're view is getting clouded.
Those two quotes sound pretty darn similar to me. But I haven't read the whole thread so...;)

[SkinsfaninNJ]

How do those contradict one another at all?
In the earlier post you said Gibbs runs the show and too much blame is passed to Snyder. In your posts today, you are saying the fact that nothing has changed since Gibbs' arival means that Snyder runs the show regardless of what Gibbs has said publicly. Those ideas contradict.

[RedskinsDave]

In the earlier post you said Gibbs runs the show and too much blame is passed to Snyder. In your posts today, you are saying the fact that nothing has changed since Gibbs' arival means that Snyder runs the show regardless of what Gibbs has said publicly. Those ideas contradict.

I said "if you believe Gibbs has final say". I don't believe it but it doesn't really matter when the only thing I want to change is how things are done, not who is doing them. I have never said too much blame is passed to Snyder.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

I said "if you believe Gibbs has final say". I don't believe it but it doesn't really matter when the only thing I want to change is how things are done, not who is doing them. I have never said too much blame is passed to Snyder.
Didn't you say "All signs point to the FACT that Gibbs took the wheel and is steering the boat in the exact same direction Snyder was going without him."? And "I don't know why the buck is either passed to Snyder or people just ignore the mistakes made by Gibbs."?

I think both of those ideas are contradicted by the above quotes.

But I get what you are saying that it's the decisions that are being made that set the franchise back and not so much who is making them.

[RedskinsDave]

Didn't you say "All signs point to the FACT that Gibbs took the wheel and is steering the boat in the exact same direction Snyder was going without him."? And "I don't know why the buck is either passed to Snyder or people just ignore the mistakes made by Gibbs."?

I think both of those ideas are contradicted by the above quotes.

But I get what you are saying that it's the decisions that are being made that set the franchise back and not so much who is making them.

I was saying IF Gibbs is really in charge then that is the case.

[Keino]

I was saying IF Gibbs is really in charge then that is the case.

I tend to believe Gibbs is really in charge. I also tend to believe that Vinny is not going to have his job much longer based on the reports of a Scouting Department Shake-up post draft.

[RedskinsDave]

I tend to believe Gibbs is really in charge. I also tend to believe that Vinny is not going to have his job much longer based on the reports of a Scouting Department Shake-up post draft.

Nice to see they got right on that.

[LATrueRedskin]

I tend to believe Gibbs is really in charge. I also tend to believe that Vinny is not going to have his job much longer based on the reports of a Scouting Department Shake-up post draft.

My confidence in Gibbs' authority waned a little after I heard the Jay Glazer report about Lance Briggs. Glazer said he heard Snyder turn around to whomever in the Bears organization and say something along the lines of, "Tell them I'll give them the 6th pick for Briggs and the 31st." I still think Gibbs has the final say on things, but that just made me start to think a little bit.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I tend to believe Gibbs is really in charge. I also tend to believe that Vinny is not going to have his job much longer based on the reports of a Scouting Department Shake-up post draft.
Wouldn't it be wiser to get rid of a whole scouting department before the draft process? It makes no sense that they have no confidence in this scouting department, yet they let them run the show in this year's draft...

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Wouldn't it be wiser to get rid of a whole scouting department before the draft process? It makes no sense that they have no confidence in this scouting department, yet they let them run the show in this year's draft...
What's one draft and it's not like we have a lot of picks or anything.

[smoak]

What's one draft and it's not like we have a lot of picks or anything.

LOL! Yeah, I could direct this draft (trade up and get Calvin Johnson). :D

[SpicyMcHaggis]

What's one draft and it's not like we have a lot of picks or anything.
Well, that's one way of looking at it I guess...lol...

[SpicyMcHaggis]

LOL! Yeah, I could direct this draft (trade up and get Calvin Johnson). :D
All right, you've convinced me that I do NOT want you to be Vinny's successor when (if ever) he gets fired. ;)

[Dept_of_Defense]

Unless those were your seats. ;)
Sadly, those are the only seats I can ever afford to get........The players look like ants from that high and it's almost impossible to see the ball when it's in the air, but I still have a good time because FedEx always has such a great atmosphere.

[BurgundyNGold]

What should I read inot about Lance Briggs? If anything, the way that situation was handled is evidence that maybe he has learned from his past. They came to a reasonable agreement in principle, made and offer and told chicago to take it or leave it. But there's one point you and Dave are missing....These aren't Snyder moves they are Gibbs moves. Gibbs has the freedom to change the structure, but it works for him (though I would expect to see major changes if we have another season like 2006). It wasn't Snyder that pursued Archuletta or Lloyd it was Gibbs. It wasn't Snyder who traded for Rocky and Campbell, that was Gibbs.
You're delusional if you think Gibbs was the driving force behind most of those moves. If you need more evidence, why not take a look at how the Briggs trade discussions started? Next Question talked to Danny about Briggs -- not Gibbs. Danny opened negotiations by making an offer through the press at the owners meetings -- not Gibbs. How could you possibly think that Danny isn't still a HUGE part of all of our personnel decisions?

And hell yes intentions matter, see my Abe Pollin example. I've lived in the city with a owner who neglected his franchise except when it was time to cash checks. I find that entirely unacceptable especially when compared to a guy who wants to win and is willing to spend whatever to accomplish that end.
You think that Pollin actively left crap on the court because he didn't care? He left crap on the court because of nepotism and loyalty. Wes Unseld as coach and thenn as GM ran that team into the ground. Abe loved Wes and he was too blind to see that he just couldn't do it.

In this way, Danny is just like Abe. He is letting nepotism with Vinny drag this franchise down. Not because he has an especially close relationship with Vinny, but because having Vinny around gives the semblance of someone who knows football running the show.

[BurgundyNGold]

Sure, but it is also a contrast of styles and if I have to choose one, Gimme Snyder's all day every day. Pollin's is not so dissimilar to that of Bidwell, or Ralph Wilson and I'm sure that the Redskins under Snyder have been more successful than either of those 2.
Ralph Wilson took his team to 4 superbowls which is precisely 4 more than Danny. Sure, the guy is a muppet, but he has done what it takes to make a franchise successful. I hate to say this, but I don't how anyone can say that Danny is a better owner than Ralph Wilson.

[BurgundyNGold]

Though Snyder is not the cheapskate that Pollin is, I do see similarities in their style. Pollin was loyal to Unseld forever, even though he was inept in his job. Now think about Danny and Vinny.
Pollin finally diminishes Unseld's role with the team to bring in a past legend, in MJ. Kind of like Danny hiring Gibbs...
I only hope Danny does the next thing that Pollin did, in finally hiring a solid GM.
Bingo. Nice call. I just wish I had read this before I replied back saying the same thing, lol.

[BurgundyNGold]

Do you think Gibbs is lying when he says he makes the final roster decisions? I don't get how an upstanding man like Gibbs says time and time again that he is making the final decisions and then everyone else says something different.

Let's make this perfectly clear so there is no more misunderstanding. Gibbs is our GM. Vinny and the scouts get the information on the players Gibbs requests. Danny and his cap guy negotiate the contracts for the players Gibbs wants.

The only arguments left to make (and very valid arguments at that) are that Snyder gives too much money/years to the players Gibbs chooses and Vinny and the scouts are not giving complete information to allow Gibbs to make a truly informed judgment.

But the decisions are made by Gibbs.
Final roster decisions? Yes. The other 95% of the roster decision process? No. Any of the real GM decisions? No.

[BurgundyNGold]

With the exception of Norv Turner, he has offered full financial support to every coaching regime. He has made mistake on identifying the RIGHT players in the 2000 debacle, but ever since he has been mostly hands off by all FACTUAL accounts. The draft parties, scrimmages, and other fan events are all low cost ways for Snyder to market his product while still extending an olive branch to the fanbase. I love the stuff and it didn't exist before he bought the team
I don't know. He fired Marty pretty quickly and meddled with Spurrier. All by FACTUAL accounts. The guy has his finger in every pie, which, of course is his right. But you can be good or you can play with your toy. Danny prefers the latter.

As for the draft day stuff, all that shows is that he knows how to market. I would prefer that he leave the team alone and I sat home on draft day.

Re: prices, I gaurantee you if you took FedEx and slammed it smack down in most NFL cities that Snyder wouldn't/couldn't chart what he does today. I think it is short-sighted to blame him for the prices is a fool when you see 90M+ march in and out of Fedex every Sunday. Parking is outrageous, but you know what? We are on a 10 year wait just for the "privledge" of having parking. You have to change demand to impact the prices and the demand is always going to be there for the Redskins.
I'm not blaming him for the exhorbitant prices at the game. I, for one, choose not to buy hardly anything in the stadium if I can avoid it but that has little to do with him being a good or bad owner. The only thing it shows is that he's got the money to put a good team on the field, good coaches in the film room and the best FO staff and scouts in the office. If he has the loot to do it and still can't produce a winner, that's pretty pathetic, actually.

Nobody is voting Snyder for owner of the decade (or even month), but I'm also not willing to send him to the guillotine either.
Actually, most people are giving him a good owner rating. And I don't think anyone is talking about sending him to the gallows. But to give him the ratings that he's getting in this poll is ludicrous. The results just aren't there to support it.

[BurgundyNGold]

My confidence in Gibbs' authority waned a little after I heard the Jay Glazer report about Lance Briggs. Glazer said he heard Snyder turn around to whomever in the Bears organization and say something along the lines of, "Tell them I'll give them the 6th pick for Briggs and the 31st." I still think Gibbs has the final say on things, but that just made me start to think a little bit.
Really, that's all the evidence you need about who's running the show right there. The Gibbspeak you hear in press conference means nothing. Not a thing. However, when Danny is overheard saying things like that? Well, that's the proverbial hand caught in the cookie jar.

[akhhorus]

Really, that's all the evidence you need about who's running the show right there. The Gibbspeak you hear in press conference means nothing. Not a thing. However, when Danny is overheard saying things like that? Well, that's the proverbial hand caught in the cookie jar.

Glazer didn't have a quote from Snyder like that all. Or any direct quote from him. Just that he would want to do a trade like that.

[BurgundyNGold]

Glazer didn't have a quote from Snyder like that all. Or any direct quote from him. Just that he would want to do a trade like that.]
I recall reading another quote about Snyder; I don't think it was from Glazer. Some interesting things about the Glazer article....


When asked about such an offer Redskins owner Dan Snyder confirmed to FOXSports.com that he in fact wanted to make the move and they were waiting to talk to Chicago.

So, he hadn't talked to Chicago yet before he talked to FOXSports about it. :doh:


Snyder and football operations man Vinny Cerato left to find head coach Joe Gibbs regarding the deal. But before leaving Rosenhaus informed Cerato that he in fact spoke with the Bears and they were waiting an official call from the Redskins.

No doubt, they were going to find Joe to tell him what a great idea of his they had before he actually had it, lol.

[akhhorus]

]
I recall reading another quote about Snyder; I don't think it was from Glazer. Some interesting things about the Glazer article....

So, he hadn't talked to Chicago yet before he talked to FOXSports about it. :doh:

No doubt, they were going to find Joe to tell him what a great idea of his they had before he actually had it, lol.

There's a BIG gap between that and what LATrue posted(and you agreed with).

[BurgundyNGold]

There's a BIG gap between that and what LATrue posted(and you agreed with).
I never said it was from the Glazer story and I don't think LATrue did either. It really doesn't matter if that's the story we heard it from anyway. He clearly was talking about it with FOXSports before he had even talked to Chicago about it. And if Gibbs was running the show, wouldn't HE be the one talking with Chicago or FOXNews or whoever?

Reading this story, it makes it seem like they were going to talk to Gibbs about the deal that Next Question had just stirred up -- as if Gibbs was last on the team to know.

[akhhorus]

I never said it was from the Glazer story and I don't think LATrue did either. It really doesn't matter if that's the story we heard it from anyway. He clearly was talking about it with FOXSports before he had even talked to Chicago about it. And if Gibbs was running the show, wouldn't HE be the one talking with Chicago or FOXNews or whoever?

Reading this story, it makes it seem like they were going to talk to Gibbs about the deal that Next Question had just stirred up -- as if Gibbs was last on the team to know.

If Snyder sought them out after talking to Rosenhaus, you have a point. It looks like, from the article, that Glazer stopped Snyder during the meetings and asked him about it(which makes me think Rosenhaus called Glazer to go find Snyder). And Snyder confirmed that he talked about that deal and liked the idea of it. Going to discuss it with Gibbs makes me further think that Snyder won't do anything further without Gibbs' approval.

LATrue posted this: "Glazer said he heard Snyder turn around to whomever in the Bears organization and say something along the lines of, "Tell them I'll give them the 6th pick for Briggs and the 31st."" And you quoted it and backed up the point he was making from it. I have yet to see anyone(even Glazer) have a quote from Snyder anywhere close to that.

[BurgundyNGold]

If Snyder sought them out after talking to Rosenhaus, you have a point. It looks like, from the article, that Glazer stopped Snyder during the meetings and asked him about it(which makes me think Rosenhaus called Glazer to go find Snyder). And Snyder confirmed that he talked about that deal and liked the idea of it. Going to discuss it with Gibbs makes me further think that Snyder won't do anything further without Gibbs' approval.

LATrue posted this: "Glazer said he heard Snyder turn around to whomever in the Bears organization and say something along the lines of, "Tell them I'll give them the 6th pick for Briggs and the 31st."" And you quoted it and backed up the point he was making from it. I have yet to see anyone(even Glazer) have a quote from Snyder anywhere close to that.
I read something with a quote, but I don't think it was from Glazer. I still wish that Danny and Vinny would just let Gibbs take care of this stuff, though.

[akhhorus]

I read something with a quote, but I don't think it was from Glazer. I still wish that Danny and Vinny would just let Gibbs take care of this stuff, though.

I have no problem if Snyder wants to collect offers like Jupiter collects asteroids, thats fine. Gibbs can dismiss it or be the roper.

[shally]

I have no problem if Snyder wants to collect offers like Jupiter collects asteroids, thats fine. Gibbs can dismiss it or be the roper.

i would tend to agree with you..

and i think (i hope) that vinnie is getting marginalized in the entire process.. even if he isnt canned, he needs to be kicked to the curb

if we cannot have a GM, then it simply has to be gibbs with final say on all personnel matters and we will live and die with his judgement for as long as he is in charge

[BurgundyNGold]

I have no problem if Snyder wants to collect offers like Jupiter collects asteroids, thats fine. Gibbs can dismiss it or be the roper.
Here's where I read the (paraphrased) quote:

http://redskinsgames.com/blog2/?p=17

It's a blog, but it's Tandler. It fleshes out the story a little better.

[akhhorus]

Here's where I read the (paraphrased) quote:

http://redskinsgames.com/blog2/?p=17

It's a blog, but it's Tandler. It fleshes out the story a little better.


Okay, assuming that is true for a second. After this conversation, Snyder tells Glazer he likes/wanted the deal, but says he has to find Gibbs. Sounds like he talked to Gibbs already or he won't go any further until he does. If he called Angelo or any bears official up and said that without Gibbs' knowledge, then he's being meddlesome owner. Telling the agent that isn't imo.

[shally]

Here's where I read the (paraphrased) quote:

http://redskinsgames.com/blog2/?p=17

It's a blog, but it's Tandler. It fleshes out the story a little better.

very interesting.. and tandler is usually pretty close to the mark

what is even more interesting to me is that,if true, does it mean that snyder has the relative pick value chart committed to memory ? so that he could calculate out instantly the worthof the swap ? or was this something he had already thought about before running into drew ? or did he just pull that trade out of thin air and, damn the values ? the last one would have been more like the old snyder--and then throwing in next years #1 for good measure

[shally]

Okay, assuming that is true for a second. After this conversation, Snyder tells Glazer he likes/wanted the deal, but says he has to find Gibbs. Sounds like he talked to Gibbs already or he won't go any further until he does. If he called Angelo or any bears official up and said that without Gibbs' knowledge, then he's being meddlesome owner. Telling the agent that isn't imo.

who cares where the source of the deal is, if it is a good one..

and as tandler says, the more confusing stories there are about the redskins use of the #6 pick, the better for the team overall

[Keino]

You're delusional if you think Gibbs was the driving force behind most of those moves. If you need more evidence, why not take a look at how the Briggs trade discussions started? Next Question talked to Danny about Briggs -- not Gibbs. Danny opened negotiations by making an offer through the press at the owners meetings -- not Gibbs. How could you possibly think that Danny isn't still a HUGE part of all of our personnel decisions?

As I understand it, Rosenhaus approached Snyder while he was eating dinner and offered that up and then proceeded to say he had to run it by Gibbs.


You think that Pollin actively left crap on the court because he didn't care? He left crap on the court because of nepotism and loyalty. Wes Unseld as coach and thenn as GM ran that team into the ground. Abe loved Wes and he was too blind to see that he just couldn't do it.

In this way, Danny is just like Abe. He is letting nepotism with Vinny drag this franchise down. Not because he has an especially close relationship with Vinny, but because having Vinny around gives the semblance of someone who knows football running the show.

Wes Sucked, no doubt about it, but don't forget about Bob Ferry. Geez, he was the one who pulled the Mugsey and Manute drafts. He stunk it up too.

I think you have a point though with regard to Snyder's friendship with Vinny keeping him gainfully employed. I can't see Vinny not being on the hot seat friendship or not.

[BurgundyNGold]

As I understand it, Rosenhaus approached Snyder while he was eating dinner and offered that up and then proceeded to say he had to run it by Gibbs.
After he told Next Question to tell Chicago what he'd be willing to offer. If that's "running it by" Gibbs I'm wondering at what point Danny calls back Next Question and says "I have to retract that offer. Joe won;t let me do it." Somehow, I don't think that would ever happen.

Wes Sucked, no doubt about it, but don't forget about Bob Ferry. Geez, he was the one who pulled the Mugsey and Manute drafts. He stunk it up too.
No doubt. Let's just call him Charley Casserly.

I think you have a point though with regard to Snyder's friendship with Vinny keeping him gainfully employed. I can't see Vinny not being on the hot seat friendship or not.
You know, they're talking about a FO shakeup. Want to know what it is? Vinny will be named GM. You heard it here first, lol.

[BurgundyNGold]

Okay, assuming that is true for a second. After this conversation, Snyder tells Glazer he likes/wanted the deal, but says he has to find Gibbs. Sounds like he talked to Gibbs already or he won't go any further until he does. If he called Angelo or any bears official up and said that without Gibbs' knowledge, then he's being meddlesome owner. Telling the agent that isn't imo.
Yeah, but the conversation already concluded with Danny supposedly telling Next Question what he'd be willing to offer for Briggs and telling him to pigeon it back to Chicago. That doesn't seem like Joe being involved very much to me.

[LATrueRedskin]

If Snyder sought them out after talking to Rosenhaus, you have a point. It looks like, from the article, that Glazer stopped Snyder during the meetings and asked him about it(which makes me think Rosenhaus called Glazer to go find Snyder). And Snyder confirmed that he talked about that deal and liked the idea of it. Going to discuss it with Gibbs makes me further think that Snyder won't do anything further without Gibbs' approval.

LATrue posted this: "Glazer said he heard Snyder turn around to whomever in the Bears organization and say something along the lines of, "Tell them I'll give them the 6th pick for Briggs and the 31st."" And you quoted it and backed up the point he was making from it. I have yet to see anyone(even Glazer) have a quote from Snyder anywhere close to that.

I was referring to a sound byte of Glazer breaking the story, and he said he was standing next to Snyder when he said that. I could be paraphrasing it a bit, but the overall feeling I got from it was that Snyder came up with the idea, and went to Gibbs after the fact. I'll see if I can find the link to the sound byte.

[akhhorus]

Yeah, but the conversation already concluded with Danny supposedly telling Next Question what he'd be willing to offer for Briggs and telling him to pigeon it back to Chicago. That doesn't seem like Joe being involved very much to me.

Unless Gibbs was in it from the beginning, and Snyder told him he was going to sound Rosenhaus out RE: Briggs and Gibbs greenlighted him. I seriously SERIOUSLY doubt Snyder would make an offer seriously for even a backup TE without Gibbs' knowledge ahead of time. Snyder is great one to send out there for something exactly like this for Gibbs, if it looks ridiculous, Gibbs can put the word out that this is Snyder going off his meds or something and no harm done.

[BurgundyNGold]

Unless Gibbs was in it from the beginning, and Snyder told him he was going to sound Rosenhaus out RE: Briggs and Gibbs greenlighted him. I seriously SERIOUSLY doubt Snyder would make an offer seriously for even a backup TE without Gibbs' knowledge ahead of time. Snyder is great one to send out there for something exactly like this for Gibbs, if it looks ridiculous, Gibbs can put the word out that this is Snyder going off his meds or something and no harm done.
There isn't any testimony to this. It's just a guess. There is testimony to what happened in the bar, though. Glazer and Danny were chatting it up. Briggs and Next Question came in. NQ started selling his boy hard and Danny threw an offer at him to bring back to Chicago.

Assuming without evidence that Snyder talked with Gibbs before and worked out the offer, why the need to go talk to run it by Gibbs afterwards? Wouldn't he already know the offer that he greenlighted beforehand?

[akhhorus]

There isn't any testimony to this. It's just a guess. There is testimony to what happened in the bar, though. Glazer and Danny were chatting it up. Briggs and Next Question came in. NQ started selling his boy hard and Danny threw an offer at him to bring back to Chicago.

There isn't any testimony that Snyder was pushing this deal as much as has been said in this thread. What you have is snyder telling Briggs' agent, not the Bears, what the skins would trade for him. And that Snyder wanted/liked that deal. Not that Gibbs was is the dark on this until after Snyder had talked to Rosenhaus, not that Snyder was pushing a deal and trying to foist it on Gibbs without his knowledge.

Assuming without evidence that Snyder talked with Gibbs before and worked out the offer, why the need to go talk to run it by Gibbs afterwards? Wouldn't he already know the offer that he greenlighted beforehand?

There was nothing that Snyder said he had to get approval from Gibbs to continue, or tell him about it, just to talk to him about it. That makes me think Gibbs knew what was going on. Talking to the agent isn't making an offer.

[BurgundyNGold]

There isn't any testimony that Snyder was pushing this deal as much as has been said in this thread. What you have is snyder telling Briggs' agent, not the Bears, what the skins would trade for him. And that Snyder wanted/liked that deal. Not that Gibbs was is the dark on this until after Snyder had talked to Rosenhaus, not that Snyder was pushing a deal and trying to foist it on Gibbs without his knowledge.
Danny made the offer to NQ and then sent him on his way to offer the deal to Chicago. Gibbs wasn't around and wasn't party to the conversation and the offer until after the fact. I don't know how that can be diluted into what you're saying. Gibbs *may* have known beforehand, but that is just baseless conjecture compared to what has been documented that happened in that bar.

There was nothing that Snyder said he had to get approval from Gibbs to continue, or tell him about it, just to talk to him about it. That makes me think Gibbs knew what was going on. Talking to the agent isn't making an offer.
I think you're overthinking this. Take away one of those loops and what you're left with is that Danny didn't have to get approval from Gibbs because he doesn't have to get approval to make an trade offer for HIS team. That's a more simple explanation and one that is rooted in Danny's historical behavior.

The point that is being overlooked here is that Danny should not be making these offers. Gibbs is running the show, no? And if not Gibbs, Vinny is supposed to be in charge of talent, no?

[akhhorus]

Danny made the offer to NQ and then sent him on his way to offer the deal to Chicago. Gibbs wasn't around and wasn't party to the conversation and the offer until after the fact. I don't know how that can be diluted into what you're saying. Gibbs *may* have known beforehand, but that is just baseless conjecture compared to what has been documented that happened in that bar.

Its baseless conjecture to assume Snyder was making these "offer" with Gibbs in the dark. Snyder might be an owner who wants to be involved with the football operations, but its ridiculous to assume that he would go behind Gibbs' back to make any major trade offers(and for the record, telling an offer to the Agent isn't an offer).

I think you're overthinking this. Take away one of those loops and what you're left with is that Danny didn't have to get approval from Gibbs because he doesn't have to get approval to make an trade off for HIS team. That's a more simple explanation and one that is rooted in Danny's historical behavior.

Not since Gibbs has been hired. Gibbs makes the decisions, not Snyder and not Vinny. Do you honestly think that Snyder would do anything without Gibbs knowing about it?

The point that is being overlooked here is that Danny should not be making these offers. Gibbs is running the show, no? And if not Gibbs, Vinny is supposed to be in charge of talent, no?

And you're right only if Gibbs had no knowledge beforehand. You have zero proof of that. And Gibbs is in charge of talent, not anyone else. So, if you want to complain about the personnel moves, aim them at the Gibbs. Not at the straw men.

[BurgundyNGold]

Its baseless conjecture to assume Snyder was making these "offer" with Gibbs in the dark. Snyder might be an owner who wants to be involved with the football operations, but its ridiculous to assume that he would go behind Gibbs' back to make any major trade offers(and for the record, telling an offer to the Agent isn't an offer).
Who says it's behind Gibbs' back? Snyder makes the deals and Joe has final say, right? That sounds like what happened. I just don't think that Snyder should be having these football conversations or making these offers. Gibbs should be doing it, if anyone. And I wouldn't say it is baseless to assume that Gibbs didn't know about the offer beforehand. I think if you asked Glazer or Tandler, they'd tell you that their distinct impression would be that the offer coalesced as a result of that conversation between Danny and NQ. Since Danny and Vinny had to go talk to Gibbs afterwards, I think that is the more likely scenario. Add in that there isn't anything that would lead one to believe that Gibbs knew the offer beforehand and I think the picture is pretty clear.

Not since Gibbs has been hired. Gibbs makes the decisions, not Snyder and not Vinny. Do you honestly think that Snyder would do anything without Gibbs knowing about it?
Yes. I think he does things all the time and then tells Gibbs about it. Gibbs might make the final decision, but Danny and Vinny are doing the vast majority of the legwork before Gibbs is even bothered with it.

And you're right only if Gibbs had no knowledge beforehand. You have zero proof of that. And Gibbs is in charge of talent, not anyone else. So, if you want to complain about the personnel moves, aim them at the Gibbs. Not at the straw men.
I also have no proof that Vinny didn't come up with the deal first and then tell Gibbs who told Danny who then patiently waited for NQ in the bar and then dropped the deal on him. I think the story says what it says. It is more logical to assume that the deal started with Danny and NQ in that bar that night.

[akhhorus]

Who says it's behind Gibbs' back? Snyder makes the deals and Joe has final say, right? That sounds like what happened. I just don't think that Snyder should be having these football conversations or making these offers. Gibbs should be doing it, if anyone. And I wouldn't say it is baseless to assume that Gibbs didn't know about the offer beforehand. I think if you asked Glazer or Tandler, they'd tell you that their distinct impression would be that the offer coalesced as a result of that conversation between Danny and NQ. Since Danny and Vinny had to go talk to Gibbs afterwards, I think that is the more likely scenario. Add in that there isn't anything that would lead one to believe that Gibbs knew the offer beforehand and I think the picture is pretty clear.

And even if you're completely right, this still isn't a trade offer at all. This is Rosenhaus and Snyder talking about Rosenhaus' client and Snyder telling Rosenhaus a flyer offer to pass along to the bears at most. Even assuming everything Glazer says is true(which I don't stipulate to), you don't have Snyder sneaking around behind his back.

Yes. I think he does things all the time and then tells Gibbs about it. Gibbs might make the final decision, but Danny and Vinny are doing the vast majority of the legwork before Gibbs is even bothered with it.

I think you give him way too much credit and not enough to Gibbs. I think Snyder is the roper who talks to the agents and finds info for Gibbs. I don't think Snyder would make any potential offers or anything serious without Gibbs' ok.

I also have no proof that Vinny didn't come up with the deal first and then tell Gibbs who told Danny who then patiently waited for NQ in the bar and then dropped the deal on him. I think the story says what it says. It is more logical to assume that the deal started with Danny and NQ in that bar that night.

But again: even if your assumptions are right(which I don't agree with--I think Gibbs/Snyder/Cerrato did this on purpose and with full knowledge), all you have is Snyder and Rosenhaus discussing it sans Gibbs and sans those who hold Briggs' rights. If Snyder went off to the Bears and talked about it with them before telling Gibbs, you have some case about Snyder meddling or going behind Gibbs' back.

[BurgundyNGold]

And even if you're completely right, this still isn't a trade offer at all. This is Rosenhaus and Snyder talking about Rosenhaus' client and Snyder telling Rosenhaus a flyer offer to pass along to the bears at most. Even assuming everything Glazer says is true(which I don't stipulate to), you don't have Snyder sneaking around behind his back.
I'm pretty sure that (paraphrasing) "Call the Bears. Tell them we’ll give them the #6 pick for Briggs and their first-round pick" is an offer. It might not be iron clad, on paper and a done deal, but it sure sounds like an offer to me.

And it's not behind Gibbs' back if that Snyder/Vinny hand off to Gibbs and back to Snyver/Vinny is the normal the dynamic.

I think you give him way too much credit and not enough to Gibbs. I think Snyder is the roper who talks to the agents and finds info for Gibbs. I don't think Snyder would make any potential offers or anything serious without Gibbs' ok.
I think he would. On that we're not of the same mind.

But again: even if your assumptions are right(which I don't agree with--I think Gibbs/Snyder/Cerrato did this on purpose and with full knowledge), all you have is Snyder and Rosenhaus discussing it sans Gibbs and sans those who hold Briggs' rights. If Snyder went off to the Bears and talked about it with them before telling Gibbs, you have some case about Snyder meddling or going behind Gibbs' back.
People talk all the time. No big deal there. But if it was just talking, then it would not have ended in an offer from Danny for NQ to bring back to the Bears. At that point, it was more than a friendly conversation, it was business. Danny was doing what Gibbs tells the world he is supposed to be doing.

And, again, it isn't going behind Gibbs' back if that's the established dynamic, which I think it is.

[akhhorus]

I'm pretty sure that (paraphrasing) "Call the Bears. Tell them we’ll give them the #6 pick for Briggs and their first-round pick" is an offer. It might not be iron clad, on paper and a done deal, but it sure sounds like an offer to me.


You're right, if he's talking to the Bears directly.

And it's not behind Gibbs' back if that Snyder/Vinny hand off to Gibbs and back to Snyver/Vinny is the normal the dynamic.

Then still Gibbs would know whats going on or Snyder is out there to draw fire(proverbially).

People talk all the time. No big deal there. But if it was just talking, then it would not have ended in an offer from Danny for NQ to bring back to the Bears. At that point, it was more than a friendly conversation, it was business. Danny was doing what Gibbs tells the world he is supposed to be doing.

Its not an offer unless its to the team that could make any such decision. Rosenhaus doesn't work for the Bears, nor could he make any decisions on their part. Let me know if you have him talking to Angelo(or one of his henchmen).

And, again, it isn't going behind Gibbs' back if that's the established dynamic, which I think it is.

Then Gibbs would be in the loop, so to speak.

[BurgundyNGold]

You're right, if he's talking to the Bears directly.
So if he tells the agent to bring an offer to the Bears it's not making... an offer? How's that?

Then still Gibbs would know whats going on or Snyder is out there to draw fire(proverbially).
We're talking about 2 different things. If the process regularly calls for Snyder and Vinny to go propose deals and then come to Joe with them then Joe may or may not be "in the loop". If he was part of contriving the trade offer to be brought up during the informal bar conversation, then he would know. If Danny just shot from the hip, then he wouldn't know. Both scenarios could be part of the same "Snyder/Vinny gets deals and brings them back to Gibbs" dynamic but on the first one would ensure Gibbs being "in the loop".

Its not an offer unless its to the team that could make any such decision. Rosenhaus doesn't work for the Bears, nor could he make any decisions on their part. Let me know if you have him talking to Angelo(or one of his henchmen).
So every offer that has ever been made through a 3rd party isn't really an offer because to two promary parties weren't speaking directly? That doesn't make sense.

[akhhorus]

So if he tells the agent to bring an offer to the Bears it's not making... an offer? How's that?

No, thats not an offer. The Skins don't have the phone number for the Bears FO?

We're talking about 2 different things. If the process regularly calls for Snyder and Vinny to go propose deals and then come to Joe with them then Joe may or may not be "in the loop". If he was part of contriving the trade offer to be brought up during the informal bar conversation, then he would know. If Danny just shot from the hip, then he wouldn't know. Both scenarios could be part of the same "Snyder/Vinny gets deals and brings them back to Gibbs" dynamic but on the first one would ensure Gibbs being "in the loop".

Then Snyder has no final authority if he has to go back to Gibbs. And he's just the roper out there to throw stuff against the wall, that Gibbs can retract.

So every offer that has ever been made through a 3rd party isn't really an offer because to two promary parties weren't speaking directly? That doesn't make sense.

Asked and answered. If it was a real offer, the skins can get in touch with the Bears directly(and the bears complained about the public nature of the talks). Considering Rosenhaus' rep, would you believe him if he called you and told you he was told that team X offers you Y for Z player?

[RedskinsDave]

I am just shocked that on a board that is objective (compared to another board) Snyder is getting 50% of at least being okay. How bad do things have to be for you people?

[BurgundyNGold]

No, thats not an offer. The Skins don't have the phone number for the Bears FO?
That's bunk. An offer does not have to follow your preferred channels to be an offer. Deals get made in all sorts of ways. Sometimes, they get sketched out on cocktail napkins. ;)

Then Snyder has no final authority if he has to go back to Gibbs. And he's just the roper out there to throw stuff against the wall, that Gibbs can retract.
That's assuming that is his role. I think that Danny/Vinny handle 95% of the deal before Gibbs ever sees it. That is my hypothesis and this story, based on what has been reported (not speculated as to what Gibbs may have known) does not seem out of those bounds.

Asked and answered. If it was a real offer, the skins can get in touch with the Bears directly(and the bears complained about the public nature of the talks). Considering Rosenhaus' rep, would you believe him if he called you and told you he was told that team X offers you Y for Z player?
Teams make "feeler" offers through agents all the time. That's half of what the combine is about these days. That doesn't make those offers any less valid than ones that are made directly to the team. The team can still ponder them without implicit contact with the offering team.

[akhhorus]

That's bunk. An offer does not have to follow your preferred channels to be an offer. Deals get made in all sorts of ways. Sometimes, they get sketched out on cocktail napkins. ;)

Snyder and Gibbs can discuss potential deals with whomever they want to, unless its to someone who can make a decision about it, its not an offer.

Teams make "feeler" offers through agents all the time. That's half of what the combine is about these days. That doesn't make those offers any less valid than ones that are made directly to the team. The team can still ponder them without implicit contact with the offering team.

I'm sure there are dozens of deals discussed informally and through 3rd parties in the NFL(which is why they have owners' meetings and such). But none of them are real offers until the two parties who have the rights to assets talk directly.

[BurgundyNGold]

Snyder and Gibbs can discuss potential deals with whomever they want to, unless its to someone who can make a decision about it, its not an offer.
First, it was Snyder, not Gibbs. Secondly, "Call the Bears. Tell them we’ll give them the #6 pick for Briggs and their first-round pick" is an offer. We can post a poll and ask people if they think it was an offer if you think I'm being unreasonable.

I'm sure there are dozens of deals discussed informally and through 3rd parties in the NFL(which is why they have owners' meetings and such). But none of them are real offers until the two parties who have the rights to assets talk directly.
No, none of them are real possibilities until the two sides formally engage in discussion. That does not mean that informal offers are not offers nonetheless -- even if they are rejected sans reply.

[akhhorus]

First, it was Snyder, not Gibbs. Secondly, "Call the Bears. Tell them we’ll give them the #6 pick for Briggs and their first-round pick" is an offer. We can post a poll and ask people if they think it was an offer if you think I'm being unreasonable.

And Snyder or Gibbs can't pick up a phone and tell the bears this themselves? The skins have NEVER been this public with trade offers under Gibbs/Snyder, the skins always have come out of nowhere with all their trades(we had what, 2 days notice on Portis? Zero notice or rumors about the Rocky and Campbell deals). This is why I don't buy this glazer anecdote at all and sounds like Rosenhaus trying to chum the waters.

No, none of them are real possibilities until the two sides formally engage in discussion. That does not mean that informal offers are not offers nonetheless -- even if they are rejected sans reply.

I disagree. Unless you offer asset Y for Asset Z(and a 6th rounder) to the holders of Asset Z, its nothing but white noise or gauging interest.

[shally]

And Snyder or Gibbs can't pick up a phone and tell the bears this themselves? The skins have NEVER been this public with trade offers under Gibbs/Snyder, the skins always have come out of nowhere with all their trades(we had what, 2 days notice on Portis? Zero notice or rumors about the Rocky and Campbell deals). This is why I don't buy this glazer anecdote at all and sounds like Rosenhaus trying to chum the waters.



I disagree. Unless you offer asset Y for Asset Z(and a 6th rounder) to the holders of Asset Z, its nothing but white noise or gauging interest.

you dont think there was chatter about the campbell deal ? i thought there was enough to get gibbs upset about it ?

i do not think that one came out of left field the way the portis deal did

[BurgundyNGold]

And Snyder or Gibbs can't pick up a phone and tell the bears this themselves? The skins have NEVER been this public with trade offers under Gibbs/Snyder, the skins always have come out of nowhere with all their trades(we had what, 2 days notice on Portis? Zero notice or rumors about the Rocky and Campbell deals). This is why I don't buy this glazer anecdote at all and sounds like Rosenhaus trying to chum the waters.
On this we can wholeheartedly agree. Doing this through the agent is bush league, IMO. Danny has done bush league before, so this doesn't surprise me that he would do it here. If you ask me, it's all the more evidence that Gibbs didn't know about the offer beforehand because he is too classy to do such a thing.

I disagree. Unless you offer asset Y for Asset Z(and a 6th rounder) to the holders of Asset Z, its nothing but white noise or gauging interest.
Every negotiation starts with an initial offer. How that comes in doesn't matter too much initially. Whether the offer is realistic or not, a gauging offer or a solid one is beside the point. It is stil an offer that is available for consideration and rejection, acceptance or counter.

[shally]

On this we can wholeheartedly agree. Doing this through the agent is bush league, IMO. Danny has done bush league before, so this doesn't surprise me that he would do it here. If you ask me, it's all the more evidence that Gibbs didn't know about the offer beforehand because he is too classy to do such a thing.


Every negotiation starts with an initial offer. How that comes in doesn't matter too much initially. Whether the offer is realistic or not, a gauging offer or a solid one is beside the point. It is stil an offer that is available for consideration and rejection, acceptance or counter.

do you think that gibbs gets involved at the point of the initial offer ? even to the point of making one?

i am not sure how the process works (if there is a process).. i would bet that prospective "offers" fly back and forth constantly.. generated by agents
and others with "plausable deniability"..

i am not sure that gibbs is even aware of those until they begin to generate some heat

[BurgundyNGold]

do you think that gibbs gets involved at the point of the initial offer ? even to the point of making one?
No.

i am not sure that gibbs is even aware of those until they begin to generate some heat
Yes.

[joethefan]

I thank Snyder for giving the man an open checkbook.


All of your points are well take but I still beleive it's the open checkbook that has helped to create the dysfunction. Why? Becuase it seems now everyone on the league knows that Danny is the poster boy for giving out big deals....Lance would have gotten it, but the Bears said no....

I fault Danny for not doing his homework and in understanding what makes a top organization....and it doens't all have to do with money...ala NE. It seems everytime someone has an issue with thier team, we come and try to make the player fit into what we're trying to do. Then you hear that adam schefter reporting that we're interested and many times we're not...but hey that's our MO....I also learned that our MO is not coaching it's scheming...we don't want to coach and teach, we wanna make sure guys get it in the first 3 days or else he's thrown to specials teams....

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I am just shocked that on a board that is objective (compared to another board) Snyder is getting 50% of at least being okay. How bad do things have to be for you people?
There are actually twice as many A votes than F votes, and there are more B votes than D and F votes combined...that's just losing touch with reality...what would we do if we were going 8-8 every year? Run around naked in the streets? Build statues in his honour?

[Patrick]

There are actually twice as many A votes than F votes, and there are more B votes than D and F votes combined...that's just losing touch with reality...what would we do if we were going 8-8 every year? Run around naked in the streets? Build statues in his honour?

Obviously a lot of people here are satisfied with mediocrity. :whoknows:
BUT then again - AIN'T NOTHIN BUT A GAME!

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Why is everyone so focused on the Briggs discussion to prove the point. Why not go back to last offseason? The process for last offseason was clearly explained in the Washington Post article from a few months ago. The process, as explained in the article, has not been refuted.

GW wanted Arch, AS wanted ARE and Gibbs wanted another speedy receiver, which ended up becoming Lloyd. Snyder had nothing to do with the process at all according to the article. Vinny was involved in providing information only. Snyder was handed a list of players to get and he went and got them.

I actually find a lot of this discussion funny because there was so much talk leading into this offseason that maybe Snyder lost interest in the Redskins because Gibbs was running the show, and Snyder was free to focus on other projects like Tom Cruise and Six Flags. Now, all of a sudden, Snyder is the mastermind of the organization again.

Just amazing!

[RedskinsDave]

Snyder had nothing to do with the process at all according to the article. Vinny was involved in providing information only. Snyder was handed a list of players to get and he went and got them.

And who handled the contracts? Who decided what picks to overpay with?

[SkinsfaninNJ]

And who handled the contracts? Who decided what picks to overpay with?
Totally agree. If you go back to my previous posts, I said this is the only argument left to make against Snyder. He often overpays in picks and money. He will never say no to Gibbs (even if it might be the right thing to do or the thing that Beatherd would have done). And if Gibbs or the coaches want something Snyder will not take no for an answer, which usually leads to us wasting resources (picks, cap space, etc.).

I also fear to some extent Snyder makes life a little too easy at Redskin Park for the players with long term deals and the best working conditions.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

But this also means, Snyder has done nothing but given Gibbs every opportunity to be successful. So how can you fault Snyder for that?

[Keino]

And who handled the contracts? Who decided what picks to overpay with?


For the first question, Snyder and his capologist. Thats his role. For the 2nd question I think it to be a group effort and Gibbs certainly has input on that. Gibbs never valued draft picks that highly and frequently traded them away in his first go around.

You and BNG seem content to hold Snyder responsible for Gibbs issues. While he is ultimately responsible as owner of the franchise, it is not Solely on Snyder that we have been inconsistant under his tenure as owner and it's ridiculously stubborn to judge Snyder based on 2000 when he has clearly changed his modus operandi.

[RedskinsDave]

For the first question, Snyder and his capologist. Thats his role. For the 2nd question I think it to be a group effort and Gibbs certainly has input on that. Gibbs never valued draft picks that highly and frequently traded them away in his first go around.

You and BNG seem content to hold Snyder responsible for Gibbs issues. While he is ultimately responsible as owner of the franchise, it is not Solely on Snyder that we have been inconsistant under his tenure as owner and it's ridiculously stubborn to judge Snyder based on 2000 when he has clearly changed his modus operandi.

I hold him responsible for selling Gibbs on his misguided way to run a football team, if I were to even believe Gibbs does have the final say.

It's ridiculously ignorant to act like Snyder has been anything short of a failure as an owner.

[skinfanjon]

I hold him responsible for selling Gibbs on his misguided way to run a football team, if I were to even believe Gibbs does have the final say.

It's ridiculously ignorant to act like Snyder has been anything short of a failure as an owner.

In terms of winning percentge, yes, he has been a failure for the most part. But as someone else pointed out, we were terrible for several years before he took over.

I give him a passing grade. The man has turned us into the most profitable team in the league and is willing to do whatever it takes financially to produce a winner. He brought back the greatest coach in team history and learned to take a backseat in player acquisition. Is he a bit greedy in his fleecing of the fans on gameday? Yeah, probably so, but at least he puts a lot of it back into the team. At the end of the day, I'd rather have an owner who is willing to try to win at any cost than one who will not.

For the record, I don't buy that he sold Gibbs on anything other than coming back. The way we currently value picks versus players is consistent with what Gibbs did in the 80's, its just much easier to accomplish now. The bottom line is that if the team can get things turned around this season his approval rating will go up, just as it did after the '05 season.

[RedskinsDave]

In terms of winning percentge, yes, he has been a failure for the most part. But as someone else pointed out, we were terrible for several years before he took over.

I give him a passing grade. The man has turned us into the most profitable team in the league and is willing to do whatever it takes financially to produce a winner. He brought back the greatest coach in team history and learned to take a backseat in player acquisition. Is he a bit greedy in his fleecing of the fans on gameday? Yeah, probably so, but at least he puts a lot of it back into the team. At the end of the day, I'd rather have an owner who is willing to try to win at any cost than one who will not.

For the record, I don't buy that he sold Gibbs on anything other than coming back. The way we currently value picks versus players is consistent with what Gibbs did in the 80's, its just much easier to accomplish now. The bottom line is that if the team can get things turned around this season his approval rating will go up, just as it did after the '05 season.

WE turned it into the most profitable franchise by paying what we do for tickets. All he did was make us pay.

Gibbs didn't have the say on those things in the 80's, Beathard did.

[Keino]

I hold him responsible for selling Gibbs on his misguided way to run a football team, if I were to even believe Gibbs does have the final say.

It's ridiculously ignorant to act like Snyder has been anything short of a failure as an owner.


The owner's primary job is to make money and keep the franchise financially viable and competetive. It's ridiculous to think that in his primary role, he hasn't been a spectacular success.

On the field, the team hasn't been successful but it's not as simplified as saying "The owner's a failure". As I mentioned in my first post, there were plenty of factors that have played a role in the Washington Redskins not having much success and among them are lack of stability, which is the owner's bag. The franchise was dysfunctional when he took over. Coupled with the fact that he made some mistakes (and took corrective action I might add).

I mean seriously, you are blaming Snyder because Gibbs, who has forgotten more football than most of us will ever know, bought into the current strategy that the Front Office employs? Maybe, just maybe, it's a philosophy that Gibbs has always beleived in, dating back to his 1st go around as coach.

It's very easy to sit here and act like Snyder is the problem, but from where I sit, that is overly simplistic.

[RedskinsDave]

The owner's primary job is to make money and keep the franchise financially viable and competetive. It's ridiculous to think that in his primary role, he hasn't been a spectacular success.

If all he did was make the money and worry about the finances, I wouldn't have a complaint. He thinks he's a GM.

On the field, the team hasn't been successful but it's not as simplified as saying "The owner's a failure". As I mentioned in my first post, there were plenty of factors that have played a role in the Washington Redskins not having much success and among them are lack of stability, which is the owner's bag. The franchise was dysfunctional when he took over. Coupled with the fact that he made some mistakes (and took corrective action I might add).

The franchise was misguided but was not dysfuntional. We had the same coach and GM for years, even if they were the wrong ones. All I care about is on the field.

I mean seriously, you are blaming Snyder because Gibbs, who has forgotten more football than most of us will ever know, bought into the current strategy that the Front Office employs? Maybe, just maybe, it's a philosophy that Gibbs has always beleived in, dating back to his 1st go around as coach.

It's very easy to sit here and act like Snyder is the problem, but from where I sit, that is overly simplistic.

I think Gibbs may have forgotten more football than Gibbs ever knew if he can't look around the league and see what works and what does not work.

How is it simplistic? What is the one constant since Snyder bought the team? That's right, Snyder. I will gladly blame Gibbs and call him incompetent if only I could convince myself that Snyder isn't playing GM.

[Keino]

It's simplistic because it doesn't recognize that Snyder is constantly evolving. He continues to be portrayed as the guy he was in 2000 and not only is that not fair, it's not even accurate.

I don't understand how you and BNG can argue that the franchise was not dysfunctional when there was nobody at the top empowered to make decisions affecting player personnel for almost 2 years? Do you even remember what a fiasco this bid/estate-sale was and how the trustees essentially froze all spending (which allowed Trent Green to walk)?

Everything about the current MO of the Front Office indicates Gibbs is the man in charge and Snyder writes checks and helps with the Contract negotiation. That tells me he is not acting as GM, but Owner.

[Keino]

WE turned it into the most profitable franchise by paying what we do for tickets. All he did was make us pay.

Gibbs didn't have the say on those things in the 80's, Beathard did.

This is simply not true. Gibbs did have a say, and frequently JKC had to be the deciding voice in disagreements over Personnel that occured between Beathard and Gibbs.

[RedskinsDave]

It's simplistic because it doesn't recognize that Snyder is constantly evolving. He continues to be portrayed as the guy he was in 2000 and not only is that not fair, it's not even accurate.

I don't understand how you and BNG can argue that the franchise was not dysfunctional when there was nobody at the top empowered to make decisions affecting player personnel for almost 2 years? Do you even remember what a fiasco this bid/estate-sale was and how the trustees essentially froze all spending (which allowed Trent Green to walk)?

Everything about the current MO of the Front Office indicates Gibbs is the man in charge and Snyder writes checks and helps with the Contract negotiation. That tells me he is not acting as GM, but Owner.

How many years will you give him then? How long does it have to be the exact same way for you to blame someone? NOT ONE THING HAS CHANGED IN THE WAY THIS TEAM IS RUN SINCE GIBBS CAME ON. If Snyder is just the owner who writes checks, why is HE meeting with agents? Why does HE comment on the Briggs crap?

It is unbelieveable how many of you are mindless lemmings running over the cliff just because Joe Gibbs wears the headset. It's been the same old same old for 7 years and the only thing that has evolved is the amount I pay for my season tickets each year.

[dukeuch]

How many years will you give him then? How long does it have to be the exact same way for you to blame someone? NOT ONE THING HAS CHANGED IN THE WAY THIS TEAM IS RUN SINCE GIBBS CAME ON. If Snyder is just the owner who writes checks, why is HE meeting with agents? Why does HE comment on the Briggs crap?

It is unbelieveable how many of you are mindless lemmings running over the cliff just because Joe Gibbs wears the headset. It's been the same old same old for 7 years and the only thing that has evolved is the amount I pay for my season tickets each year.

How can I agree with you so completely here and we disagree on everything in the political forum (except I don't have season tickets, dammit!)?

[smoak]

All I know is that efverybody better hope that I don't buy team once I hit Powerball.... I'd even consider putting myself out on the field. At least Snyder hasn't done that... :D

[redskin_rich]

All I know is that efverybody better hope that I don't buy team once I hit Powerball.... I'd even consider putting myself out on the field. At least Snyder hasn't done that... :D
I wish he would! I'd even pay double to see that.

[Keino]

How many years will you give him then? How long does it have to be the exact same way for you to blame someone? NOT ONE THING HAS CHANGED IN THE WAY THIS TEAM IS RUN SINCE GIBBS CAME ON. If Snyder is just the owner who writes checks, why is HE meeting with agents? Why does HE comment on the Briggs crap?

It is unbelieveable how many of you are mindless lemmings running over the cliff just because Joe Gibbs wears the headset. It's been the same old same old for 7 years and the only thing that has evolved is the amount I pay for my season tickets each year.

Because it clearly hasn't been the same thing. You're inability to recognize that changes have been made. As for how many years I will give him......lets see what happens after the 2nd Gibbs tenure is about where I am. Again, he's owned the team less than a decade, and it is simply not that case that he runs it today, the same way he ran it when he first acquired the team.

Edit: BTW it's tough to help with contract negotiation if you don't talk to agents.

Im not sure why you keep insulting people who don't agree with you. I've not once called you ignorant or a lemming. I just think our current failures are more on Gibbs than they are on Snyder who turned over all football decisions to Gibbs.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Because it clearly hasn't been the same thing. You're inability to recognize that changes have been made. As for how many years I will give him......lets see what happens after the 2nd Gibbs tenure is about where I am. Again, he's owned the team less than a decade, and it is simply not that case that he runs it today, the same way he ran it when he first acquired the team.

Edit: BTW it's tough to help with contract negotiation if you don't talk to agents.

Im not sure why you keep insulting people who don't agree with you. I've not once called you ignorant or a lemming. I just think our current failures are more on Gibbs than they are on Snyder who turned over all football decisions to Gibbs.
Yeah. I never called Dave or anyone here a short-tailed, furry-footed rodent.:)

Actually though, I get Dave's argument. He has a ton of justifiable anger toward the Skins, and Snyder is the biggest reason why, so he holds him most accountable. Makes sense to me, but I have a different take on it mostly because I don't have the same level of anger toward the Skins, yet...

[Keino]

Yeah. I never called Dave or anyone here a short-tailed, furry-footed rodent.:)

Actually though, I get Dave's argument. He has a ton of justifiable anger toward the Skins, and Snyder is the biggest reason why, so he holds him most accountable. Makes sense to me, but I have a different take on it mostly because I don't have the same level of anger toward the Skins, yet...

I agree with this and I get Dave's argument too and BNG's for that matter. I am frustrated by the lack of consistancy on the field but I also realize that in alot of ways we just had some bad luck. Snyder is by no means perfect, just not the villain some make him out to be.

[RedskinsDave]

Because it clearly hasn't been the same thing. You're inability to recognize that changes have been made.

What has changed? Are we stockpiling draft picks and not overpaying free agents now? The one year there was restraint had everything to do with available cap space. The very next year, BAM, we go make a joke out of signing Arch, Lloyd and Randel El to deals no one else would have. We traded up for a linebacker who didn't play half the season.

The only thing that has changed is Gibbs being the front man and taking the blame. Snyder is still junior GM and Vinny "I wouldn't know talent if it sat on my face" Cerrato is still Dir of Player Personnel.

If Gibbs is truly is charge then he has no friends around the league and takes all of his advice from a marketing man. I can't wait til there's a football guy in charge. Maybe thanking the fans won't be priority number one and be able to gouge us on playoff tickets will be.

[Keino]

What has changed? Are we stockpiling draft picks and not overpaying free agents now? The one year there was restraint had everything to do with available cap space. The very next year, BAM, we go make a joke out of signing Arch, Lloyd and Randel El to deals no one else would have. We traded up for a linebacker who didn't play half the season.

The only thing that has changed is Gibbs being the front man and taking the blame. Snyder is still junior GM and Vinny "I wouldn't know talent if it sat on my face" Cerrato is still Dir of Player Personnel.

If Gibbs is truly is charge then he has no friends around the league and takes all of his advice from a marketing man. I can't wait til there's a football guy in charge. Maybe thanking the fans won't be priority number one and be able to gouge us on playoff tickets will be.

And if Gibbs asked for those players and Snyder turned him down you would be bashing him for that. Last year was Gibbs' moves not Snyder's. Why is that so hard for you to accept? Trading drafts away for experienced players is Joe Gibbs' way. He's always been that way.

I don't even understand your last paragraph. Why does Gibbs having friends around the league have anything to do with this?

[RedskinsDave]

And if Gibbs asked for those players and Snyder turned him down you would be bashing him for that. Last year was Gibbs' moves not Snyder's. Why is that so hard for you to accept? Trading drafts away for experienced players is Joe Gibbs' way. He's always been that way.

I don't even understand your last paragraph. Why does Gibbs having friends around the league have anything to do with this?

Because one call to someone who's been in the league the whole time he's been gone would have told him to drop Vinny, keep Snyder out of the way and hire a competent GM.

If those were Gibbs moves, as I have said numerous times now, then he has bought into Snyder's ways and having him around does nothing but inspire nostalgia to cloud one's mind.