PFT- Top 25 In 25- Darrell Green #19

[S.Taylor36]

PFT is doing an ongoing list of the best 25 football players in the last 25 years. It's pretty interesting to see who they select and why. Anyway this is the first time I saw it and our boy Darrell Green is at #19

No. 19: Darrell Green.

Like Junior Seau at No. 20, cornerback Darrell Green became an NFL institution by spending so many years in the NFL that it was hard to remember when he first arrived.

In Green's case, he joined the Redskins in 1983 -- and spent 20 seasons with the same team. For a guy whose ongoing employment hinges on speed and agility, the fact that he could remain on the one squad's roster for 20 seasons is amazing. The reality that 10 of those seasons came in the free-agency era, which has resulted in many a veteran being purged from his team prematurely, boggles the mind.

Along the way, Green won two Super Bowl rings, and played a key role in the march to the team's 1987 NFL championship with a game-changing punt return against the Bears.

At a mere 5-9, Green was for years one of the fastest players in the NFL, winning on multiple occasions a made-for-TV sprinting competition with other fleet-footed football players.

Green most certainly will land in the Hall of Fame in 2008, his first year of eligibility. He deserves it, and he definitely deserves a spot among the best 25 players of the past 25 years. He might just be one of the best 25 ever.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/No19Green.htm

[Dept_of_Defense]

Darrell Green is my homeboy.

[RedskinRyan]

Darrell Green is my homeboy.

you're my boy, green!

he certainly belongs on that list. i was a bit surprised to see him on there honestly, but it's nice to see him getting respect.

[Redskin4Life]

Green most certainly will land in the Hall of Fame in 2008, his first year of eligibility. He deserves it, and he definitely deserves a spot among the best 25 players of the past 25 years. He might just be one of the best 25 ever.

I find this comment to be HILARIOUS... how can he be considered one of the best 25 EVER but only make it to #19 on this list of the best 25 in the last 25??? PFT has lost it... he should have been much higher than #19 on this list by their own arguments.

[smoak]

I find this comment to be HILARIOUS... how can he be considered one of the best 25 EVER but only make it to #19 on this list of the best 25 in the last 25??? PFT has lost it... he should have been much higher than #19 on this list by their own arguments.

Maybe not if you believe that the moderern athlete is that far superior to the previous eras... I think an all pro decade team from the past 25 years would wipe the floor with any of the past 25 year increments. But I get your point and I actually agree. It sounds disingenuous at best.

[dj_stouty]

Just to ruffle everyone's feathers...Deion is listed at #13.

[HanburgerBum]

Darrell Green should be higher than 19th. Of the ones listed so far, I think he should be ahead of Marshall Faulk, Tim Brown, Mike Singletary and Marvin Harrison.

Twenty! Twenty years as a No. 1 corner in the NFL. To me, that dwarfs Cal Ripken's consecutive game streak. As a corner, there is absolutely no place to hide. You have no idea where the receivers are going, but you got to be quick enough to react and shadow them. As a No. 1 corner, you always get the opponents best WR. Ten years would be phenomenal. Twenty years border on being super human.

[LATrueRedskin]

Good to see Mr. Green get some love. He was an amazing player and person, and I'll be looking forward to the Hall of Fame induction ceremony.

[Spence]

Darrell was 5'9" in the tallest spikes he could find.

[chas3]

Darrell was 5'9" in the tallest spikes he could find.

wasn't he still one of the fastest redskins even in his last year!

[redskin_rich]

wasn't he still one of the fastest redskins even in his last year!

I believe Albert Connell was the only teammate to ever outrun DG.

[Keino]

Just to ruffle everyone's feathers...Deion is listed at #13.

My feathers aren't ruffled by that fact at all. Im sure you knew this already, but I think he should be above Darrell and that's not a knock against Darrell at all.

[Keino]

Darrell Green should be higher than 19th. Of the ones listed so far, I think he should be ahead of Marshall Faulk, Tim Brown, Mike Singletary and Marvin Harrison.

Twenty! Twenty years as a No. 1 corner in the NFL. To me, that dwarfs Cal Ripken's consecutive game streak. As a corner, there is absolutely no place to hide. You have no idea where the receivers are going, but you got to be quick enough to react and shadow them. As a No. 1 corner, you always get the opponents best WR. Ten years would be phenomenal. Twenty years border on being super human.

ehhhhh, he ceased being the #1 CB when Champ was drafted and the very next year he played the Nickle for the remaining years of his career. Still, 16-17 years is phenomenal and 20 years as a Contributing CB is nothing short of amazing.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

ehhhhh, he ceased being the #1 CB when Champ was drafted and the very next year he played the Nickle for the remaining years of his career. Still, 16-17 years is phenomenal and 20 years as a Contributing CB is nothing short of amazing.

Good point. He never made the move to safety as is common.

[redskin_rich]

Good point. He never made the move to safety as is common.

There was never a need to. Most players that make that switch are the bigger CB's that eventually lose a step. Darrell was too small to be a Safety and he never lost much speed.

[Keino]

There was never a need to. Most players that make that switch are the bigger CB's that eventually lose a step. Darrell was too small to be a Safety and he never lost much speed.

And lets face it, Darrell Green losing a step is still faster than most, if not all CBs in the league.

[Red Bear]

ehhhhh, he ceased being the #1 CB when Champ was drafted and the very next year he played the Nickle for the remaining years of his career. Still, 16-17 years is phenomenal and 20 years as a Contributing CB is nothing short of amazing.

i have no doubt in my mind that green could have started at #1 corner for those last few years, but the team wanted to develop champ and smoot. i think weve had a long standing history of good corner play up until the last year or two.

[chas3]

i have no doubt in my mind that green could have started at #1 corner for those last few years, but the team wanted to develop champ and smoot.

i got the feeling that marty and green just didnt get along.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

I believe Albert Connell was the only teammate to ever outrun DG.
and that was only after AC stole darrell's wallet. ;)

glad to see DG get some props....:beer:

[LuvSkins17]

D. Green always has been and always will be a "Core Redskin"! Dude ran down Tony D. in his prime. I think that is when the "World" caught on to his speed.

It really pissed me off when Marty tried to "tweek" his technique when he came aboard.

[esmith1790]

D. Green always has been and always will be a "Core Redskin"! Dude ran down Tony D. in his prime. I think that is when the "World" caught on to his speed.

It really pissed me off when Marty tried to "tweek" his technique when he came aboard.


DG is one of the reasons the SKINS vs the BOYS is such a rivalry. I know there are other players but his long tenure fueled the flames becuase he was a true Redskin.

[redskin_rich]

DG is one of the reasons the SKINS vs the BOYS is such a rivalry. I know there are other players but his long tenure fueled the flames becuase he was a true Redskin.

You know, that is the best thing I have ever seen you post here. Not knocking anything else you have ever posted but just respecting your understanding of what a true Redskin is and there is no doubt that Darrell is the embodiment of that.

[esmith1790]

You know, that is the best thing I have ever seen you post here. Not knocking anything else you have ever posted but just respecting your understanding of what a true Redskin is and there is no doubt that Darrell is the embodiment of that.

thanks for the kind words, not back to the heated debates and off the wall statements. lol

[redskin_rich]

thanks for the kind words, not back to the heated debates and off the wall statements. lol

No doubt, Romo sucks! His choke job in the playoffs was just a hint at the frustration he will cause for all you Cowgirls fans. Mark my words, you will be cursing his name by week 9 of this season.

;) Just trash-talking but I do mean what I say.

[HanburgerBum]

ehhhhh, he ceased being the #1 CB when Champ was drafted and the very next year he played the Nickle for the remaining years of his career. Still, 16-17 years is phenomenal and 20 years as a Contributing CB is nothing short of amazing.


Got carried away with the superlatives a little. But, as you said, 16-17 years as a No. 1 corner (and a superior No. 1 corner) is phenomenal and in my mind dwarfs a wimpy streak like Cal Ripken's.

[smoak]

My feathers aren't ruffled by that fact at all. Im sure you knew this already, but I think he should be above Darrell and that's not a knock against Darrell at all.

I'm personally more ruffled at the thought of Deion in the burgundy and gold.

[Swirvi]

Twenty! Twenty years as a No. 1 corner in the NFL. To me, that dwarfs Cal Ripken's consecutive game streak.

Give me a break. Twenty years is amazing. 2,131 consecutive games is not even human.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

This was great to see Darrell in the top 25. It looks like he will not get the same credit in the similar USA Today poll. The last three have to be named, but I would guess they will be Montana, Rice and Walter Payton in some order.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2007-top-25-series.htm

[James F. Quinn]

Give me a break. Twenty years is amazing. 2,131 consecutive games is not even human.

He went on to finish with 2532. There is one record that will never even be approached.

During Gehrig's run, there were a few games where he was hurting pretty badly. His manager put in the lineup as leadoff man, got him an at-bat, and then subbed for him.

I don't think Cal ever made a token appearance like that. There was a lot of research as he neared Lou's record, and I never saw anything like that.

[HanburgerBum]

Give me a break. Twenty years is amazing. 2,131 consecutive games is not even human.


Totally disagree. Baseball is such a wimpy sport compared to football. Football is not even a "contact" sport, it is a collision sport. Players weighing up to 370 lbs go full speed at each other.

Moreover, most baseball players are about the same size. In football, a CB like Darrell Green (185 lbs) runs into 300-lb linemen on running plays. Darrell playing 20 years is a greater achievement than Ripken's streak. Nobody ever hit Cal. And, it is comical to watch baseball players get into pissy fits when pitchers throw close to them even though they are wearing protective head gear. Put these clowns in a football game and see if they would survive one quarter.

[redskin_rich]

Totally disagree. Baseball is such a wimpy sport compared to football. Football is not even a "contact" sport, it is a collision sport. Players weighing up to 370 lbs go full speed at each other.

Moreover, most baseball players are about the same size. In football, a CB like Darrell Green (185 lbs) runs into 300-lb linemen on running plays. Darrell playing 20 years is a greater achievement than Ripken's streak. Nobody ever hit Cal. And, it is comical to watch baseball players get into pissy fits when pitchers throw close to them even though they are wearing protective head gear. Put these clowns in a football game and see if they would survive one quarter.
I don't know about any 370 lb guys ever going full speed, whatever that is for them, at each other. And football players do wear pads.
Anyhow, regardless of how "wimpy" you consider baseball to be, let me ask you this, have you shown up to work for 2500 consecutive workdays, without calling in sick?

[MikeBass]

Darrell Green should be higher than 19th. Of the ones listed so far, I think he should be ahead of Marshall Faulk, Tim Brown, Mike Singletary and Marvin Harrison.

Twenty! Twenty years as a No. 1 corner in the NFL. To me, that dwarfs Cal Ripken's consecutive game streak. As a corner, there is absolutely no place to hide. You have no idea where the receivers are going, but you got to be quick enough to react and shadow them. As a No. 1 corner, you always get the opponents best WR. Ten years would be phenomenal. Twenty years border on being super human.

Tim Brown and Marvin Harrison, most definitely, and I think that Green and Sanders should be closer than 13th and 19th. Both of these guys were great and if you were to try to name the greatest corners ever, you could start with either.

[HanburgerBum]

I don't know about any 370 lb guys ever going full speed, whatever that is for them, at each other. And football players do wear pads.
Anyhow, regardless of how "wimpy" you consider baseball to be, let me ask you this, have you shown up to work for 2500 consecutive workdays, without calling in sick?


Yes, football players do wear protective gear as well. But, my point is that they hit each other every play and don't get into fights over it. In baseball, throw a pitch close to a batter and the wimp charges the mound.

370 pounders probably aren't at full speed constantly. But, they are hitting each other full bore on every play. What kind of baseball players can survive 20 years in that environment? Cal would be lucky to last a season, much less 2500 games.

As for myself, I did not go 2500 consecutive workdays without taking leave. But, then again, we are comparing athletes of one sport with atheletes of another sport. We are not comparing athletes with non athletes like myself.

[HanburgerBum]

Tim Brown and Marvin Harrison, most definitely, and I think that Green and Sanders should be closer than 13th and 19th. Both of these guys were great and if you were to try to name the greatest corners ever, you could start with either.


Deion was probably the best cover corner ever. But, as the article pointed out, he was not a complete player. He can go a full game without getting any grass stains on his uniform because he often shied away from running plays. Darrell on the other hand was never afraid to meet a runner.

If we are talking about the greatest CBs of all time, certainly Deion and Darrell should be in the top 5. And, Darrel should be a slam-dunk first ballot HOF when he becomes eligible.

[Keino]

Deion was probably the best cover corner ever. But, as the article pointed out, he was not a complete player. He can go a full game without getting any grass stains on his uniform because he often shied away from running plays. Darrell on the other hand was never afraid to meet a runner.

If we are talking about the greatest CBs of all time, certainly Deion and Darrell should be in the top 5. And, Darrel should be a slam-dunk first ballot HOF when he becomes eligible.



That is bunk. Darrell and Deion averaged within a tackle and a half of each other per year over the course of their careers. It's true that Deion wasn't the most physical in run support (He was definately physical with WRs, moreseo than Darrell was) but neither were all that enthusiastic about run support, but both did it and did it fairly well. Both tended to make leg tackles as opposed to straight up face-mask to chin hit-wrap-lift-and drive tackles, but they were CBs. That wasn't their primary purpose.

[Keino]

Yes, football players do wear protective gear as well. But, my point is that they hit each other every play and don't get into fights over it. In baseball, throw a pitch close to a batter and the wimp charges the mound.

370 pounders probably aren't at full speed constantly. But, they are hitting each other full bore on every play. What kind of baseball players can survive 20 years in that environment? Cal would be lucky to last a season, much less 2500 games.

As for myself, I did not go 2500 consecutive workdays without taking leave. But, then again, we are comparing athletes of one sport with atheletes of another sport. We are not comparing athletes with non athletes like myself.

You have to be an athlete to show up for work 2500 straight days?

[ryflan47]

Boo Dallas!
Hooray Mr. Green!

[Skinz4lyfe]

Totally disagree. Baseball is such a wimpy sport compared to football. Football is not even a "contact" sport, it is a collision sport. Players weighing up to 370 lbs go full speed at each other.

Moreover, most baseball players are about the same size. In football, a CB like Darrell Green (185 lbs) runs into 300-lb linemen on running plays. Darrell playing 20 years is a greater achievement than Ripken's streak. Nobody ever hit Cal. And, it is comical to watch baseball players get into pissy fits when pitchers throw close to them even though they are wearing protective head gear. Put these clowns in a football game and see if they would survive one quarter.


Since he was a CB, I do not think that is a good comparison. However, I think a more fair comparison to Ripken's streak would be Favre's consectutive starts. That's one streak that I cannot see broken (only chance might be Manning). With QBs you can make it a point in saying 300 plus pound guys chasing after you every single play, trying to tear your head off.

[HanburgerBum]

Since he was a CB, I do not think that is a good comparison. However, I think a more fair comparison to Ripken's streak would be Favre's consectutive starts. That's one streak that I cannot see broken (only chance might be Manning). With QBs you can make it a point in saying 300 plus pound guys chasing after you every single play, trying to tear your head off.


Your comparison may be better. But, the point I was trying to make is baseball requires much less physicality than football. The odds of serious injury and the wear and tear on a player's body are so much higher in football than baseball, I believe Darrell's 20 years is more impressive than Ripken's 2500+ games streak.

[BurgundyNGold]

You have to be an athlete to show up for work 2500 straight days?
Don't even go there, pal. :D

[HanburgerBum]

That is bunk. Darrell and Deion averaged within a tackle and a half of each other per year over the course of their careers. It's true that Deion wasn't the most physical in run support (He was definately physical with WRs, moreseo than Darrell was) but neither were all that enthusiastic about run support, but both did it and did it fairly well. Both tended to make leg tackles as opposed to straight up face-mask to chin hit-wrap-lift-and drive tackles, but they were CBs. That wasn't their primary purpose.


Stats can be misleading. Do they tell you how many tackles Deion missed or shied away from?

I have watched a lot of games Darrel played and a fair amount of games Deion played. There is no way DG is not better in run support than DS. The author of the article thought Sanders was weak against the run, and I may add that that was the conventional wisdom about Deion.

Having said that, I would still place Sanders in the top 5 of all time (as I did the last post) because he was such a great cover corner.

[HanburgerBum]

You have to be an athlete to show up for work 2500 straight days?


To me, consecutive game streaks, especially in a non-contact sport like baseball, doesn't mean much. It just means that a player was lucky not to have had an injury or an illness on game days.

A Baltimore sportscaster Phil Wood said it best "a consecutive game streak is a streak of will, not a streak of skill". Thus, DiMaggio's hitting streak is much more impressive than Cal's just showing up to play.

The hoopla over Ripken's breaking Gehrig's game streak was way over blown--to the point of being nauseating and embarrassing. Presumably, the same will happen when Bonds breaks Aaron's home run record. It would have been a great achievement if Bonds hadn't been a cheater.

[BurgundyNGold]

To me, consecutive game streaks, especially in a non-contact sport like baseball, doesn't mean much. It just means that a player was lucky not to have had an injury or an illness on game days.

A Baltimore sportscaster Phil Wood said it best "a consecutive game streak is a streak of will, not a streak of skill". Thus, DiMaggio's hitting streak is much more impressive than Cal's just showing up to play.

The hoopla over Ripken's breaking Gehrig's game streak was way over blown--to the point of being nauseating and embarrassing. Presumably, the same will happen when Bonds breaks Aaron's home run record. It would have been a great achievement if Bonds hadn't been a cheater.
You miss an important point about Ripken's record. For 2500+ straight games, not only did he manage to stay healthy, more importantly he managed to keep his job beating younger competition season after season. Even DG can't say that, since Smoot supplanted him in 2001.

[HanburgerBum]

You miss an important point about Ripken's record. For 2500+ straight games, not only did he manage to stay healthy, more importantly he managed to keep his job beating younger competition season after season. Even DG can't say that, since Smoot supplanted him in 2001.


My take of Cal's streak, especially the last couple of seasons, is that he became unbenchable due to the streak. There were plenty of times when a day of rest for an older player like him would have actually help both him and the team.

Also, Cal staved off competition from younger players because there weren't any good young players to supplant him.

But, don't get me wrong. Cal is a true HOF due to his batting (including home runs) as well as his fielding. It's just that the game streak, to me, is the least impressive part of his career.

[28thegreat]

You know, this whole Cal vs. DG discussion is really mute. Apples and oranges, folks. You have to compare apples and apples. DG played twenty years at or near the top of his game. (And if you look at the avatar you'll see that he's far and away my favorite player of all time.) Playing twenty years in the NFL is an amazing feat...but not unheard of within the sport. But only a very small handful of players in baseball can claim even coming close to two thousand games. 2500+ is off the charts. You don't play 2500 consecutive games because you're lucky. To say that is just hilarious. Cal played 2500 games in a row because he was good enough and consistent enough and a leader among his peers. Comparing the two is an exercise in futility.

[HanburgerBum]

You know, this whole Cal vs. DG discussion is really mute. Apples and oranges, folks. You have to compare apples and apples. DG played twenty years at or near the top of his game. (And if you look at the avatar you'll see that he's far and away my favorite player of all time.) Playing twenty years in the NFL is an amazing feat...but not unheard of within the sport. But only a very small handful of players in baseball can claim even coming close to two thousand games. 2500+ is off the charts. You don't play 2500 consecutive games because you're lucky. To say that is just hilarious. Cal played 2500 games in a row because he was good enough and consistent enough and a leader among his peers. Comparing the two is an exercise in futility.


You are right in that comparing baseball and football longevity feats will require some extrapolation, since the two sports are very different in their demands on the body. But, common sense would tell you that the much harsher physicality of football would make it more difficult to have long careers.

Incidentally, who are these other corners who can play at or near the top of their games for 20 years besides Darrell Green? Maybe a corner named Johnson for SF back in the 50's-60's. But, I don't think there is another one besides possibly him. Even if you are just referring to players at any position, who are these guys that played at or near the top of their games for 20 years in the NFL?

As for Ripken, he had started to slide before he broke Gehrig's streak. But, he became unbenchable due to the quest for the record. And, the Orioles had nobody waiting in the wings that was better. Just showing up for work for a long time in a non-contact sport like baseball is nice, but nothing to go crazy over.

[Swirvi]

You know, this whole Cal vs. DG discussion is really mute. Apples and oranges, folks. You have to compare apples and apples.


Did you just say "mute"?

But I do like your point. My statement was never meant to spark an argument. My point was that while it is rare that a player stay on the same team for 20 years, its not unheard of. Several players are in that same boat today, and have done the majority of it during the Free Agency Era - a feat more difficult to accomplish than what DG did. However, Cal Ripken playing for 2,500+ games is a record that one can safely bet $1M will not happen for many generations, if ever.

I don't think it was over-hyped. I don't think it was embarrassing. And while his stats alone are impressive, I think the streak IS the single-most important accomplishment of his career. Just because a baseball player doesn't get hit, doesn't mean they are less likely to be injured. Pitchers tear their rotator cuffs, outfielders pull their hamstrings, and anyone can tear any muscle in their arm while swinging the bat. And it happens. The DL exists for a reason.

I honestly think its one of the most impressive records across all sports...ONE OF...not THE.

[Keino]

To me, consecutive game streaks, especially in a non-contact sport like baseball, doesn't mean much. It just means that a player was lucky not to have had an injury or an illness on game days.

A Baltimore sportscaster Phil Wood said it best "a consecutive game streak is a streak of will, not a streak of skill". Thus, DiMaggio's hitting streak is much more impressive than Cal's just showing up to play.

The hoopla over Ripken's breaking Gehrig's game streak was way over blown--to the point of being nauseating and embarrassing. Presumably, the same will happen when Bonds breaks Aaron's home run record. It would have been a great achievement if Bonds hadn't been a cheater.


Yea. I can really see the argument that breaking a 60 year old record doesn't mean much. If it was such an "easy" thing to do, why didn't someone break it much sooner?



Stats can be misleading. Do they tell you how many tackles Deion missed or shied away from?

I have watched a lot of games Darrel played and a fair amount of games Deion played. There is no way DG is not better in run support than DS. The author of the article thought Sanders was weak against the run, and I may add that that was the conventional wisdom about Deion.

Having said that, I would still place Sanders in the top 5 of all time (as I did the last post) because he was such a great cover corner.

Yes, Stats can be misleading, but really what can be misleading about the number of tackles a CB has? Do you have some stats about the number of times Deion shied away from contact, or do you just merely have your perceptions. Because I know I watched alot of both players, and I saw 2 guys who were excellent defenders, but neither was enthusiastic about run support. Many people slam Deion because he was quote as saying something in like "I don't get paid to make tackles" and he's right. He was paid to shut down a side of the field and he did it like no other.

You know what else is misleading? Homerism. Homerism can cause people to see things that just aren't there and invent facts to suit their position. Outside of Redskins land, Deion is regarded as being a superior player to Darrell. Only Redskins fans introduce the run-support argument as a reason why Darrell is a better player, while ignoring the fact that their tackle stats are ridiculously comparable. They ignore things like the fact that Darrell, from a technique standpoint, was not all that good, and used his speed to make up for his technical defeciencies or that Deion was never out muscled by a WR.

I love Darrell, and he is hands down a 1st ballot HOFer, but ranking him behind Deion is completely appropriate.

[youngestson]

Good point. He never made the move to safety as is common.

Why should he have? The only reason he was no longer a #1 corner was because Danny droped a pile of cash at Dion's feet. His last year, Green was still as good or better, reamining one of the few to ever shut down Randy Moss before Moss shut himkself down.

[HanburgerBum]

Yea. I can really see the argument that breaking a 60 year old record doesn't mean much. If it was such an "easy" thing to do, why didn't someone break it much sooner?



Yes, Stats can be misleading, but really what can be misleading about the number of tackles a CB has? Do you have some stats about the number of times Deion shied away from contact, or do you just merely have your perceptions. Because I know I watched alot of both players, and I saw 2 guys who were excellent defenders, but neither was enthusiastic about run support. Many people slam Deion because he was quote as saying something in like "I don't get paid to make tackles" and he's right. He was paid to shut down a side of the field and he did it like no other.

You know what else is misleading? Homerism. Homerism can cause people to see things that just aren't there and invent facts to suit their position. Outside of Redskins land, Deion is regarded as being a superior player to Darrell. Only Redskins fans introduce the run-support argument as a reason why Darrell is a better player, while ignoring the fact that their tackle stats are ridiculously comparable. They ignore things like the fact that Darrell, from a technique standpoint, was not all that good, and used his speed to make up for his technical defeciencies or that Deion was never out muscled by a WR.

I love Darrell, and he is hands down a 1st ballot HOFer, but ranking him behind Deion is completely appropriate.


Ripken's game streak record is not easy because it required a lot of luck. But, as Phil Wood said, just showing up for work is not skill--doing something great at work (like a 56 game hitting streak) takes skill and is much more meaningful. For instance, if I live to be 150 years old (certainly as rare as Cal's 2500+ games) and Albert Einstein lived to be only 100, does that make my life more impressive than Einstein's?

As between Darrel and Deion, I guess we have different impressions of the run-support part of their games. Sanders was among the worst tacklers I had ever seen whenever he wasn't shying away from contact. I wouldn't call DG a great run-supporter, but he was better than Deion.

In regard to the homerism charge, I did NOT rank Darrel ahead of Sanders overall (please re-read my posts). I put both of them in the top 5 of all time. If one regards run-support as not important for a corner, one would certainly rank Deion ahead of Darrell overall. I said as much when I conceded that DS was probably the greatest cover corner ever. If one regards run-support as important, it would be very close between the two of them overall.

By the way, I don't regard myself as always wearing B&G glasses. I have been berated in this forum for being too negative at times. If you would notice, I never use homer language like "Cowgirls". Harshly criticizing--yes. But, I don't think disparging other teams' names advances the discussion.

[Keino]

Ripken's game streak record is not easy because it required a lot of luck. But, as Phil Wood said, just showing up for work is not skill--doing something great at work (like a 56 game hitting streak) takes skill and is much more meaningful. For instance, if I live to be 150 years old (certainly as rare as Cal's 2500+ games) and Albert Einstein lived to be only 100, does that make my life more impressive than Einstein's?

As between Darrel and Deion, I guess we have different impressions of the run-support part of their games. Sanders was among the worst tacklers I had ever seen whenever he wasn't shying away from contact. I wouldn't call DG a great run-supporter, but he was better than Deion.

In regard to the homerism charge, I did NOT rank Darrel ahead of Sanders overall (please re-read my posts). I put both of them in the top 5 of all time. If one regards run-support as not important for a corner, one would certainly rank Deion ahead of Darrell overall. I said as much when I conceded that DS was probably the greatest cover corner ever. If one regards run-support as important, it would be very close between the two of them overall.

By the way, I don't regard myself as always wearing B&G glasses. I have been berated in this forum for being too negative at times. If you would notice, I never use homer language like "Cowgirls". Harshly criticizing--yes. But, I don't think disparging other teams' names advances the discussion.


Arguing that Darrell is a complete player while arguing that Deion is not is the exact same thing as ranking Darrell ahead of Deion. If you are going to argue that Deion is not a complete player, then you must, in the interest of intellectual honesty admit the same of Darrell. To argue that one avoided contact, and the other did not, when they had about the same number of tackles per year is pure, unadulterated Bull Feathers. Only Redskins fans make that claim, ergo, only homerism would lead one to that conclusion.


As to Ripken, you said that you didn't show up for 2500 consecutive days of work because you aren't an athlete. When asked if one must be an athlete to have that type of work record, you wrote some diatribe about how in a non-contact sport, the record is meaningless. I wholeheartedly disagree, because it means that he played through illness and nagging injury and that takes a special type of person....to show up when most others won't. Furthermore, you are letting Cal's last few years blind you to the fact that for most of his career, he was an Elite player. For the majority of that streak, he was an all-star SS who batted in the 3 hole in the line-up and was the starter in the All-star game. Not to mention he was a 2 time AL MVP. So, if you made a significant contribution to science, while outliving Albert Einstein the answer to your hypothetical is yes. The streak was insane, and they didn't lead him off and then bench him the rest of the game the way that was done to preserve Gehrig's streak.

[HanburgerBum]

Did you just say "mute"?

But I do like your point. My statement was never meant to spark an argument. My point was that while it is rare that a player stay on the same team for 20 years, its not unheard of. Several players are in that same boat today, and have done the majority of it during the Free Agency Era - a feat more difficult to accomplish than what DG did. However, Cal Ripken playing for 2,500+ games is a record that one can safely bet $1M will not happen for many generations, if ever.

I don't think it was over-hyped. I don't think it was embarrassing. And while his stats alone are impressive, I think the streak IS the single-most important accomplishment of his career. Just because a baseball player doesn't get hit, doesn't mean they are less likely to be injured. Pitchers tear their rotator cuffs, outfielders pull their hamstrings, and anyone can tear any muscle in their arm while swinging the bat. And it happens. The DL exists for a reason.

I honestly think its one of the most impressive records across all sports...ONE OF...not THE.


I got to totally disagree with the statement that Cal's game streak is the single-most important accomplishment. I think it is the least impressive part of his HOF career.

For instance, what if Cal was not a HOFer? What if he had a 2500+ game streak with a mediocre career (averaged about .265, about 10 homers a year, 65 RBIs a year and was a decent fielder) and managed to stay in the lineup because of his consistency, because the team had no one better to supplant him and because he was very lucky in avoiding injuries? Would that 2500+ game streak still be a big deal? I hardly think so.

Cal's had a great career because he had HOF stats, not because he showed up for work everyday.

Baseball was in the midst of the steroids mess when Ripken broke the Gehrig streak record. The game needed a boost--a feel good story to placate fans--and carried on the celebration to the point of nausea and embarrassment for what was actually accomplished.

[Swirvi]

I got to totally disagree with the statement that Cal's game streak is the single-most important accomplishment. I think it is the least impressive part of his HOF career.

For instance, what if Cal was not a HOFer? What if he had a 2500+ game streak with a mediocre career (averaged about .265, about 10 homers a year, 65 RBIs a year and was a decent fielder) and managed to stay in the lineup because of his consistency, because the team had no one better to supplant him and because he was very lucky in avoiding injuries? Would that 2500+ game streak still be a big deal? I hardly think so.

Cal's had a great career because he had HOF stats, not because he showed up for work everyday.

Baseball was in the midst of the steroids mess when Ripken broke the Gehrig streak record. The game needed a boost--a feel good story to placate fans--and carried on the celebration to the point of nausea and embarrassment for what was actually accomplished.


If Cal was not a HOFer, and he still had the streak, then OF COURSE it would still be a big deal!!!! This is a record that should never have been broken. NEVER. I wasn't alive during that era, but I can only imagine what was said in the papers and by announcers everywhere when Lou's streak finally ended. "The Streak that will never be broken!"

And let me say this. You are right about Cal's record saving baseball. It did exactly that. So, lets apply that to your earlier analogy. Let's say you take all of Einstein's accomplishments and he lives to 100. Lets also say you ignore every aspect of Cal's career, save the streak. If a man is loved by his city, loved by most of the country, and saves mankind (much in the same way that Cal's streak saved baseball) by living for 150 years, then YES his life would be more significant. And that is without counting his accomplishments.

[OCSkinzFan]

My feathers aren't ruffled by that fact at all. Im sure you knew this already, but I think he should be above Darrell and that's not a knock against Darrell at all.

Yea, Deon was GREAT when he played for the Redskins! And what a great tackler! Oh is tackling part of football or is showboating and a clean uni still the most important thing?

Nion is the MOST over-rated player of all time.

[OCSkinzFan]

That is bunk. Darrell and Deion averaged within a tackle and a half of each other per year over the course of their careers. It's true that Deion wasn't the most physical in run support (He was definately physical with WRs, moreseo than Darrell was) but neither were all that enthusiastic about run support, but both did it and did it fairly well. Both tended to make leg tackles as opposed to straight up face-mask to chin hit-wrap-lift-and drive tackles, but they were CBs. That wasn't their primary purpose.

Neion was the worst tackler I EVER saw.

Don't even say that Darrell was ANYTHING NEAR what that showboat was as far as tackling.

It seems your memory faults.

[Keino]

Neion was the worst tackler I EVER saw.

Don't even say that Darrell was ANYTHING NEAR what that showboat was as far as tackling.

It seems your memory faults.



Nope. My memory is good. His 2000 Redskins season wasn't his only season, I distinctly remember, especially in playoff games, Deion coming up and making tackles in run support.

[HanburgerBum]

Arguing that Darrell is a complete player while arguing that Deion is not is the exact same thing as ranking Darrell ahead of Deion. If you are going to argue that Deion is not a complete player, then you must, in the interest of intellectual honesty admit the same of Darrell. To argue that one avoided contact, and the other did not, when they had about the same number of tackles per year is pure, unadulterated Bull Feathers. Only Redskins fans make that claim, ergo, only homerism would lead one to that conclusion.


As to Ripken, you said that you didn't show up for 2500 consecutive days of work because you aren't an athlete. When asked if one must be an athlete to have that type of work record, you wrote some diatribe about how in a non-contact sport, the record is meaningless. I wholeheartedly disagree, because it means that he played through illness and nagging injury and that takes a special type of person....to show up when most others won't. Furthermore, you are letting Cal's last few years blind you to the fact that for most of his career, he was an Elite player. For the majority of that streak, he was an all-star SS who batted in the 3 hole in the line-up and was the starter in the All-star game. Not to mention he was a 2 time AL MVP. So, if you made a significant contribution to science, while outliving Albert Einstein the answer to your hypothetical is yes. The streak was insane, and they didn't lead him off and then bench him the rest of the game the way that was done to preserve Gehrig's streak.


Again, I did NOT rank Darrel ahead of Sanders. Just because you argue that I did doesn't make it so. The reason I didn't rate Darrel ahead is because reasonable people can disagree as to how important the run-support part of the game is for a corner. Obviously, to someone like yourself, it is of no, or very little, importance. That's fine, but that's your opinion. Just as it is your opinion that DG was no better than DS in run-support. I have seen both and, to me, Darrel is definitely better than Deion in that regard. You did notice that the author alluded to Sanders' weak run-support but did not say the same about Green? Is he a homer Skins fan too?

As to Ripken, I am not blinded by his last few seasons. I have said repeatedly that he is a true HOFer. It's just that in my opinion people are applauding him for the wrong reasons. The game streak is nice, but it is the least impressive part of his resume because it is largely luck-dependent and has virtually nothing to do with skill. Anyone can get sick or injured for a day or two. What if Babe Ruth or Willie Mays played 25 years of HOF baseball but missed a couple of days during that time? Would either of those careers be less impressive than Cal's? No reasonable person could answer yes.

Incidentally, while I thank you for putting my 150 year life span (hopefully) in the same league with Albert Einstein, I know that no matter how long I live my life would not be as impressive as his.

[HanburgerBum]

If Cal was not a HOFer, and he still had the streak, then OF COURSE it would still be a big deal!!!! This is a record that should never have been broken. NEVER. I wasn't alive during that era, but I can only imagine what was said in the papers and by announcers everywhere when Lou's streak finally ended. "The Streak that will never be broken!"

And let me say this. You are right about Cal's record saving baseball. It did exactly that. So, lets apply that to your earlier analogy. Let's say you take all of Einstein's accomplishments and he lives to 100. Lets also say you ignore every aspect of Cal's career, save the streak. If a man is loved by his city, loved by most of the country, and saves mankind (much in the same way that Cal's streak saved baseball) by living for 150 years, then YES his life would be more significant. And that is without counting his accomplishments.


Well, we are still in total disagreement. If Cal was just an ordinary player, his record-breaking game streak would not (and should not) have been a big deal, because consecutive game streaks is almost totally luck-dependent and has virtually nothing to do with skill.

Let me give you an example. Ruth and Mays are generally recognized as two of the very best players that ever played (I hesitate to include Barry Bonds because he is a cheater). Would these two's careers be less impressive than Cal's career just because they missed a few games? Of course not.

Did Cal's streak "save" baseball? That's probably over-stating it. The streak gave the fans something to feel good about, but I don't think it "saved" the game. If it did, that says more about how fragile the health of baseball is rather than how great an accomplishment the streak was.

[Keino]

Again, I did NOT rank Darrel ahead of Sanders. Just because you argue that I did doesn't make it so. The reason I didn't rate Darrel ahead is because reasonable people can disagree as to how important the run-support part of the game is for a corner. Obviously, to someone like yourself, it is of no, or very little, importance. That's fine, but that's your opinion. Just as it is your opinion that DG was no better than DS in run-support. I have seen both and, to me, Darrel is definitely better than Deion in that regard. You did notice that the author alluded to Sanders' weak run-support but did not say the same about Green? Is he a homer Skins fan too?

You argued that Darrell is a better all around corner than Deion despite the fact that there is no tangible evidence to support such a notion. Was Darrell better at run support than Deion? Slightly, yes. But here is what you wrote:
Deion was probably the best cover corner ever. But, as the article pointed out, he was not a complete player. He can go a full game without getting any grass stains on his uniform because he often shied away from running plays. Darrell on the other hand was never afraid to meet a runner.

That sounds like an argument that Deion is less of a CB than Darrell on the basis of run support. Even funnier is that you take exception to the article for ranking Darrell and Deion 6 spots apart, but now use the same article to support your notion about Deion and run support. This isn't me putting words in your mouth, this is me directly contesting the words you wrote yourself. So either your words contradict your own player rankings or you think Darrell is a better CB. How else can the above text be interpreted?

And lets clarify my position once again. Run support is important for CBs. Rod Woodson did it better than Darrell or Deion. However, Statistics show (And you have yet to show me how tackle stats for CBs are in any way misleading on this point) that throughout their careers they averaged about the same number of tackles per season. It cannot be argued with anything other than blind homerism that Darrell was substantially better at run support than Deion. Neither were great at it, but both were great CBs. Darrell was slightly better at it, thus averaged 1.5 tackles per year more just as Deion was a more technically sound CB that Darrell.


As to Ripken, who cares really. We agree his career was HOF worthy with or without the streak and I'm not really interested in discussing Orioles in a favorable light on a Redskins message board. Eff the O's.

There was a caveat to the 150 years thing. You had to make a significant contribution to science. I wouldn't go thanking me just yet.

[HanburgerBum]

You argued that Darrell is a better all around corner than Deion despite the fact that there is no tangible evidence to support such a notion. Was Darrell better at run support than Deion? Slightly, yes. But here is what you wrote:


That sounds like an argument that Deion is less of a CB than Darrell on the basis of run support. Even funnier is that you take exception to the article for ranking Darrell and Deion 6 spots apart, but now use the same article to support your notion about Deion and run support. This isn't me putting words in your mouth, this is me directly contesting the words you wrote yourself. So either your words contradict your own player rankings or you think Darrell is a better CB. How else can the above text be interpreted?

And lets clarify my position once again. Run support is important for CBs. Rod Woodson did it better than Darrell or Deion. However, Statistics show (And you have yet to show me how tackle stats for CBs are in any way misleading on this point) that throughout their careers they averaged about the same number of tackles per season. It cannot be argued with anything other than blind homerism that Darrell was substantially better at run support than Deion. Neither were great at it, but both were great CBs. Darrell was slightly better at it, thus averaged 1.5 tackles per year more just as Deion was a more technically sound CB that Darrell.


As to Ripken, who cares really. We agree his career was HOF worthy with or without the streak and I'm not really interested in discussing Orioles in a favorable light on a Redskins message board. Eff the O's.

There was a caveat to the 150 years thing. You had to make a significant contribution to science. I wouldn't go thanking me just yet.


As I said before, stats can be misleading, especially when it involves a corner's run support. Do your stats tell you how many tackles were missed or shied away from? That was the main knock on Deion's run support. If you think only Redskins fans harp on that, you must not have paid attention all these years. Why do you think the author mentioned that in a piece that is designed to "puff" or "honor" these 25 players but did not say the same about Darrel? But, if you think all these criticisms of DS's run support is unjustified, we can agree to disagree.

Yes, I did think DG at No. 19 was ranked too low. But, I did not protest his being ranked below Sanders. As I said, I regard both of them to be top 5 corners of all time. I rank Deion so high because I consider his coverage ability to be unparalleled and I am willing to overlook the run support part of his game. But, that does not mean DS was good at run support or better than DG at run support.

If I had to choose between Deion and Darrell, it would depend upon the defense scheme and maybe the other defenders around them. How important is run support? How critical is the ability to shut down one side of the field in pass coverage? If there are other people to protect against the run, or if pass coverge is paramount above all else, I would go with DS. If the situation needs a corner that can play the run as well as pass cover, I would go with DG. While DG may not have been great at run support, he was definitely better at it than DS and he is not that far behind DS in pass coverage (you do remember that Darrel was a "shut-down" corner too?).

As a point of irony, DG played at or near the top of his game significantly longer than Deion. If you valued Ripken's longevity so much, why do you not accord Darrel the same courtesy? As for me, I think longevity is a factor in evaluating a career but not a definitive one. That's why I don't trot out Darrel's longer career when comparing him to Deion.

[ChiefPowhatan17]

I can't believe that Deion is #13 and Darrell is #19, who makes this stuff up. Darrell was a better player and for longer. That's the truth.

[superskin]

I've had this Deion-Darrell argument a million times, and a million times I have said that Deion Sanders is the greatest COVER corner that ever lived. He was also a hell of a kick returner - but we can't knock Darrell in that area either. That being said, in the true complete definition of a corner, Darrell has Deion whipped.

When did Deion ever break his forearm making a tackle?