PDA

View Full Version : Don't cut him some slack, just cut him


Spence
08-16-2007, 08:33 AM
A certain DC sportwriter wants an under-performing Redskins wideout cut immediately. Find out who and what I think about it by reading this. (http://www.hailredskins.com/?p=87)

Moe
08-16-2007, 08:49 AM
A certain DC sportwriter wants an under-performing Redskins wideout cut immediately. Find out who and what I think about it by reading this. (http://www.hailredskins.com/?p=87)

If Lloyd isn't aware of his status then he's blind. That being said, his play will determine his future. The coaches slotting ARE as #2 along with their comments about needing much more from Lloyd tell me that they are paying attention.

Brit'Skin
08-16-2007, 08:56 AM
A certain DC sportwriter wants an under-performing Redskins wideout cut immediately. Find out who and what I think about it by reading this. (http://www.hailredskins.com/?p=87)

I don't think he should be cut yet. He barely deserves it but I think he should get another chance to prove himself and hopefully show his attitude has changed and he is ready to be a team player.

CNYSkinFan
08-16-2007, 08:58 AM
Elfin is blind to the cap ramifications of such a move. He is the same guy who postulated the Lavar for Moss deal a few years back. THe Redskins could not afford to release or trade both AA and LLoyd this year. They chose to keep Lloyd. LLoyd has one more year as a Redskin and releasing him will be more pallatable next year.

HOWEVER we better hope he sticks because releasing him will make it hard to give Cooley an extension next year and almost impossible to give Taylor one as well.

frankez99
08-16-2007, 09:00 AM
If a tree falls on Lloyd in the forest, would anybody hear it? If Lloyd gets cut from this team, would anybody care? I would miss him as much as I miss Archuleta.

But I am willing to allow him a re-chance to prove his worth to this team.....if he want's to....it all depends on the status of his rap career I guess.

I didn't like his "I did what I did and I'm not going to change for anybody" response last year in regards to his helmet toss last year.

shally
08-16-2007, 09:10 AM
A certain DC sportwriter wants an under-performing Redskins wideout cut immediately. Find out who and what I think about it by reading this. (http://www.hailredskins.com/?p=87)

foolish to cut him now

let's see what he does in the next couple of games. but i would keep him on a very short leash

chris carter turned himself around. ditto irving fryar. it's not too late for lloyd-- IF he gets his head into the game

redwolf1218
08-16-2007, 09:12 AM
i dont think the coaches share this reporter's opinion of Lloyd.

Said wide receivers coach Stan Hixon: "He is bigger, but he still has the speed. He still has a fast first step, if not faster."

Hixon was asked if Lloyd's struggles were related to his transition to Saunders' timing-based offense.

"In Al's offense, we do throw to spots on timing, while in San Francisco they probably ran a different offense," Hixon said. "But I wouldn't put it on anything like that. We have to put him into position to make plays.

"We've been happy with Brandon. He does some things on the field that no one else can do. We have to take advantage of that."

http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=28024

James F. Quinn
08-16-2007, 09:15 AM
foolish to cut him now

let's see what he does in the next couple of games. but i would keep him on a very short leash

chris carter turned himself around. ditto irving fryar. it's not too late for lloyd-- IF he gets his head into the game

It's just empty Media prattle. Lloyd has the talent to be a good player, and the motivation to drop the attitude. Cut him prematurely, and he will go to NY, or Philly or Dallas and kill us for the next 8-10 years.

Dolla Bill
08-16-2007, 09:25 AM
My biggest worry is that due to the musical chairs of the OL, the offense will not get any rhythem with the running game or the passing game. That has bigger ramifications than Lloyd's attitude.

shally
08-16-2007, 09:29 AM
It's just empty Media prattle. Lloyd has the talent to be a good player, and the motivation to drop the attitude. Cut him prematurely, and he will go to NY, or Philly or Dallas and kill us for the next 8-10 years.

maybe.. i doubt the giants want another head case to go along with burress. but the real risk is that we leave ourselves very thin at receiver if we cut him too soon.
give him a chance. there should be no rush to judgement

shally
08-16-2007, 09:30 AM
My biggest worry is that due to the musical chairs of the OL, the offense will not get any rhythem with the running game or the passing game. That has bigger ramifications than Lloyd's attitude.

i hope and think things will settle down starting this weekend. pucillo at least is a real guard

Dolla Bill
08-16-2007, 09:35 AM
i hope and think things will settle down starting this weekend. pucillo at least is a real guard

I like Pucillo at guard. Small, squat, and knows the position. I think Wade will take over at LT for preseason till Samuels gets fit. The reason why I posted that is that if the OL doesn't gel, then we have problems in the passing game which could hamper Lloyd even more. I don't know what his problem is, but he seems to be a different WR this year. If there are timing problems early, look to see how he reacts. I think he knows that if he mouths off once, he is gone.

youngestson
08-16-2007, 09:38 AM
As big a pain as Lloyd is, the guy is a WR and we are as thin as Kate Moss at a vomitorium at that position. And, though I hate to admit it, shin-splints are painful with an upper case P. They are not a minor thing for a guy who depends on speed.

redwolf1218
08-16-2007, 09:39 AM
Lloyd reminds me of Gary Clark, one of my all-time favorites. he yelled and screamed and threw his helmet a few times too. these guys are some of the most fierce competitors on the planet. i dont expect them to be church choir boys.

bergiemoore
08-16-2007, 09:41 AM
Lloyd admitted that this offseason was the first one during which he ever really worked out, and the result has been that he has missed half of training camp with shin splints.

So, we should reward his off-season work by cutting him because he sustained an injury? Is this guy for real?

I'm not a Lloyd supporter by any stretch of the imagination, but I can't see how we're better off by cutting a guy, who has rededicated himself to improving, and is saying all the right things to the press, before he's had a chance to see the field (a decision made by the trainers).

The time for cutting Lloyd has past. We chose to release Arch instead. Lloyd has a 1 year reprieve. If he is anything less than admirable this year, then I'll jump on the "Cut Lloyd, Now!" bandwagon.

smoak
08-16-2007, 09:44 AM
I'd cut Lloyd after this season unless he straightens up and flies right. There is nothing gained by cutting him that benching him doesn't accomplish.

Ibleedburgundy
08-16-2007, 09:51 AM
I don't think Lloyd can be counted on in the clutch. His mind is somewhere else. If he doesn't produce in the first half of the season, I think we should bench him and never look back.

CowboyKiller#9
08-16-2007, 10:05 AM
I'm going to wait and see how he does in the Steelers game (if he plays), before I pass judgement on Lloyd. But this shinsplints crap is pissing me off. He's getting paid million$ and can't play cuz of shinsplints?!?!? F-that!!!

Hr fan
08-16-2007, 10:07 AM
While the article says about the salary cap issues, that they are controllable, I find this hard to believe. Lloyd has earned demotion. Unlike Clark who was team motivated LLoyd is me oriented ala TO without the production. That said, it speaks volumes about him if Pinkston becomes a realistic option. In that case I have a sneaking suspicion LLoyd's shin splints will land him on IR, to facilitate spreading the cap hit over two years after the season or to facilitate an injury buyout.

ryflan47
08-16-2007, 10:19 AM
Elf-man is obviously too short to see that we have NO depth or talent at WR behind Moss. Cutting Lloyd would just leave us with less talent. What if Randle El can't be a solid #2? Who would be starting alongside Moss? THRASH? Horrible, horrible idea by Elfin.

shally
08-16-2007, 10:23 AM
Elf-man is obviously too short to see that we have NO depth or talent at WR behind Moss. Cutting Lloyd would just leave us with less talent. What if Randle El can't be a solid #2? Who would be starting alongside Moss? THRASH? Horrible, horrible idea by Elfin.


again.. too soon to do this... this sounds personal with elfin

JoeDaSchmoe
08-16-2007, 10:43 AM
There's no good reason to outright cut Lloyd at this point. He has obvious physical talent, we might as well see if he's figured out how to use it this year.

That said, I think his playing time should be on a short leash.

LATrueRedskin
08-16-2007, 10:44 AM
I don't really know who this will "send a message to" other than Lloyd himself. I don't think a lack of effort or professionalism is a problem for the Redskins, so cutting Lloyd for that reason doesn't make any sense to me. There's no "message" to send in that regard.

However, Lloyd's production thus far definately justifies the question of whether or not to cutting him. But I'm going to go with the consensus here (which is the correct answer) and say that we should give him another year, or at least part of it, to see what he has now that he should have a firm grasp of the offense.

Battle Cat
08-16-2007, 10:55 AM
foolish to cut him now

let's see what he does in the next couple of games. but i would keep him on a very short leash

chris carter turned himself around. ditto irving fryar. it's not too late for lloyd-- IF he gets his head into the game
I think we should give him a chance to turn it around. He has shown some success in the NFl while at San Fran. I think the comparison to AA is a little harsh. I mean AA doesnt have the athletic ability to play SS in the NFL. I mean what he is lacking you cant teach. That is why they cut him Lloyd at least has the tools and can if willing be shown how to be successful in the NFL.

LATrueRedskin
08-16-2007, 11:05 AM
I think we should give him a chance to turn it around. He has shown some success in the NFl while at San Fran. I think the comparison to AA is a little harsh. I mean AA doesnt have the athletic ability to play SS in the NFL. I mean what he is lacking you cant teach. That is why they cut him Lloyd at least has the tools and can if willing be shown how to be successful in the NFL.

Not to change the subject, but I definately think Archuleta has the skills to play SS in the NFL. What he doesn't have is the speed to cover a receiver or tight end without a pass rush. Not many SS's do. I think he'll probably have a pretty good year for Chicago. He's no beast, but he can still play if the front 4 can get pressure.

silverspring
08-16-2007, 11:05 AM
This is very short sighted. Sure, I never understood why gibbs signed a guy with known character problems. But by signing him to that big contract and throwing those draft picks away we bought into an attitude project. Now that he is here and has acted exactly as the person he is known to be, i don't see why anyone is surprised and ready to throw him off buildings. Also this whole thing where everyone is freaking out about the helmet thing, yes it was offensively annoying, but didn't our kicker do the same thing? I think it is going to be a tough to help lloyd grow up and suffer through these growing pains, but I think the guy has a chance because while he maybe a malcontent in the locker room at least he isn't a problem child off the field (with the law).

Lloyd needs to grow up and become a professional and this coaching staff needs to help him do that. They bought into this project, now they need to step up to the plate and try and fix him, they already got a free bee with the AA experiment, they shouldn't get another so easily.

In terms of his production it was pretty poor last year, but so it was for all of our WRs. He has been no more of a bust production wise than ARE. Lets give him a chance to straighten up before we toss him under the bus.

shally
08-16-2007, 11:08 AM
Not to change the subject, but I definately think Archuleta has the skills to play SS in the NFL. What he doesn't have is the speed to cover a receiver or tight end without a pass rush. Not many SS's do. I think he'll probably have a pretty good year for Chicago. He's no beast, but he can still play if the front 4 can get pressure.

as long as they dont ask him to cover anyone.

incidentally, compare his mobility and speed with landry's.. actually there is no comparison..

LATrueRedskin
08-16-2007, 11:17 AM
as long as they dont ask him to cover anyone.

incidentally, compare his mobility and speed with landry's.. actually there is no comparison..

Just don't ask him to cover anyone while the Quarterback has time in the pocket to call his mother. Tell that to Sean Taylor last year too, he looked just as foolish. I never said Archuleta was better than Landry. Landry looks like he will be a supreme safety in the history of the NFL. He already has grasped the defense. But put Archuleta in a defense with some kind of pass rush (any kind), and he can be effective.

shally
08-16-2007, 11:22 AM
Just don't ask him to cover anyone while the Quarterback has time in the pocket to call his mother. Tell that to Sean Taylor last year too, he looked just as foolish. I never said Archuleta was better than Landry. Landry looks like he will be a supreme safety in the history of the NFL. He already has grasped the defense. But put Archuleta in a defense with some kind of pass rush (any kind), and he can be effective.

maybe.. i just dont know what arch can still do other than tackle. that he does well
but as a safety there is no way to hide him in pass coverage

and i agree that taylor did not help the situation at all last year.. maybe they were asking him to do the wrong things ? for sure i like the present scheme better and i bet that taylor does as well. it would seem to play to his strength more. and i cannot get over how lean he looks this year compared to last. and yet is hasnt affected his ability to hit. he is still laying out folks.
yesterday it was ryan hoag who got crunched

culpeper
08-16-2007, 11:38 AM
where has elfin been? this has been an issue for how long now? B.lloyd hasnt even got a chance to show anything yet this year and elfin writes this? idiot.

now with that said, and ill admit shin splints hurt, i always played through them. man-up.

Hr fan
08-16-2007, 11:45 AM
again.. too soon to do this... this sounds personal with elfin

Unfortunately the job of the press increasingly to be team PR or to create controversy. If it sells papers I guess that it is OK, but someone should notice that readership is declining and has been for some time. Maybe Elfin is trying to become the Rome is burning of the Post.

WarEagle
08-16-2007, 11:47 AM
If Elfin has his fangs and nails out in August, I can't wait to see what he writes in November. :rolleyes:

Hr fan
08-16-2007, 11:52 AM
as long as they dont ask him to cover anyone.

incidentally, compare his mobility and speed with landry's.. actually there is no comparison..

Anyone here think Lovie wouldn't trade AA for LL? And throw in Biggs? Our mistake was paying AA like he was LL, but IMO this had much less to do with the coaches than the FO.

SkinsfaninNJ
08-16-2007, 12:06 PM
If Elfin has his fangs and nails out in August, I can't wait to see what he writes in November. :rolleyes:

Hopefully an article about whether the Skins really could go undefeated.:)

Brokenstriker
08-16-2007, 12:29 PM
As far as I'm concerned ... you shouldn't shoot the horse you're riding unless you have another horse, or you're prepared to do a lot of walking. Second and third WR positions are not strong suits. Is Lloyd that answer? I say maybe. Should they keep him around if he acts the way he did last year, absolutely not. But until he fails this year, or they develop someone who could do the job better than he could ... let him show what he can do. At the moment that's sit on the bench. His resume supports at least 3 weeks of training camp survival. If he's not playing by the last pre-season game then it might be time to get a new horse.

skinsfan36
08-16-2007, 01:27 PM
i think lloyd ahs one more year and if not hes gone but i think we keep him but he could fall further on the depth chart past thrash,espy if he stinks before we cut him next season

akhhorus
08-16-2007, 01:30 PM
I would do the Alec Baldwin here:

http://videodetective.com/photos/098/004119_11.jpg

"We're adding a little something to this training camp's WR contest, Mr Lloyd, Espy, Pinkston, etc. As you all know, first prize is a starting job. Anybody want to see second prize?
[Holds up prize]
Second prize is a set of steak knives on the special teams. Third prize is you're fired."

esmith1790
08-16-2007, 01:56 PM
BL already had imaturity issues even when he was the #1 option on the 49ers and they were behind all the time and had to throw the ball. his stats were average to below average. Now he is the the 3rd or 4th option here in WASH. behind Moss and Cooley. I am not sure what the production expectations are for him. His best season was 48 733 and 5 TDs in 2005.

HanburgerBum
08-16-2007, 02:06 PM
David Elfin is an idiot, or worse, a journalist who makes the news rather than writing about it. As Shally said, this Elfin tantrum smacks of something personal. Did Lloyd refuse an interview, or make some comment about Elfin's mother?

Even if Elfin is right that there is plenty of cap room for releasing BL and also extending Cooley (a proposition I doubt is correct), BL has not done or said anything so far this offseason to warrant get cut at this point. Lloyd has apparently worked out and bulked up trying to improve. As thin as the receiving corp is, the team may need BL more than he needs the team. Give him this season to prove himself. Next offseason is the right time to decide Lloyd's Redskins future.

And, as someone said, who else besides BL would be receiving the "message"? I am not aware of other attitude problems on this team. So, what would be accomplished by Lloyd's release now--other than cutting off our nose to spite our face?

redwolf1218
08-16-2007, 02:11 PM
i'm reminded of an exchange from My Cousin Vinny...this is what i would like to say to Mr. Elfin:

Judge Chamberlain Haller: Mr. Gambini?
Vinny Gambini: Yes, sir?
Judge Chamberlain Haller: Mr. Gambini, that is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection.
Vinny Gambini: Thank you.
Judge Chamberlain Haller: Overruled.

BurgundyNGold
08-16-2007, 02:18 PM
David Elfin is an idiot, or worse, a journalist who makes the news rather than writing about it. As Shally said, this Elfin tantrum smacks of something personal. Did Lloyd refuse an interview, or make some comment about Elfin's mother?

Even if Elfin is right that there is plenty of cap room for releasing BL and also extending Cooley (a proposition I doubt is correct), BL has not done or said anything so far this offseason to warrant get cut at this point. Lloyd has apparently worked out and bulked up trying to improve. As thin as the receiving corp is, the team may need BL more than he needs the team. Give him this season to prove himself. Next offseason is the right time to decide Lloyd's Redskins future.

And, as someone said, who else besides BL would be receiving the "message"? I am not aware of other attitude problems on this team. So, what would be accomplished by Lloyd's release now--other than cutting off our nose to spite our face?
At least 3 or 4 people on this board have explained how the cap works, the Redskins' cap situation and the basic contract tactics used to make this happen with you at least six ways from Sunday. Why is this so hard for you to understand? We can resign Cooley to a top 5 TE extension -- with $10-12M SB over 5 years and still have plenty of room to sign/release other players. Geesh.

jaylen
08-16-2007, 02:19 PM
I tend to think Lloyd is a scrub but its too early to tell. Brunnel played so poorly last season that by the time JC took over Lloyd was gone mentally. Is he any good is the question attitude aside. I can tolerate the attitude if he could actually produce. He did play with Alex Smith who was horrible Lloyd's last season there.

So i wonder can he play at all. We surely paid him very prematurely but he definitely should be given this last season before he gets dumped.

Its possible he can actually play we'll find out sure enough.

MONK_in_HOF
08-16-2007, 02:29 PM
Haven't read all the post, but did read the article and blog on the home page, and here are my 2 cents.

I hated the idea of acquiring Lloyd from the moment he appeared on the best available FA WR radar here. I liked even less what they gave up for a player who many were reporting was soon to be cut if he couldn't be dealt. The 1 comment left in response to the Wilson article was very amusing IMO.

1. They should cut the GM who traded for him. No wait, they dont have a GM? Can you cut the owner??

Having said all that I think right now would be an awful time to cut B. Lloyd. They are shallow at WR with Lloyd IMO, and I am not sure what type of message it would send to cut a guy after you can visibly notice he worked out hard in the offseason. From all accounts Lloyd has come in with a much more positive and dedicated attitude, how long this lasts time will tell, but..... if they cut him now I am not sure what type of message it sends. If they wanted to cut him and send a message the time to do it was last year in the midst of his griping and awfulness.

James F. Quinn
08-16-2007, 02:34 PM
At least 3 or 4 people on this board have explained how the cap works, the Redskins' cap situation and the basic contract tactics used to make this happen with you at least six ways from Sunday. Why is this so hard for you to understand? We can resign Cooley to a top 5 TE extension -- with $10-12M SB over 5 years and still have plenty of room to sign/release other players. Geesh.


There must be a few of those blank ARE/AA/ BL $10M-$30M-5 years contracts lying around in someone's desk. Chris Cooley certainly deserves something like that.

BurgundyNGold
08-16-2007, 02:34 PM
Haven't read all the post, but did read the article and blog on the home page, and here are my 2 cents.

I hated the idea of acquiring Lloyd from the moment he appeared on the best available FA WR radar here. I liked even less what they gave up for a player who many were reporting was soon to be cut if he couldn't be dealt. The 1 comment left in response to the Wilson article was very amusing IMO.
Hilarious!

Having said all that I think right now would be an awful time to cut B. Lloyd. They are shallow at WR with Lloyd IMO, and I am not sure what type of message it would send to cut a guy after you can visibly notice he worked out hard in the offseason. From all accounts Lloyd has come in with a much more positive and dedicated attitude, how long this lasts time will tell, but..... if they cut him now I am not sure what type of message it sends. If they wanted to cut him and send a message the time to do it was last year in the midst of his griping and awfulness.
By all indications, he doesn't seem to be running his routes or catching the ball any better. Who cares if he's buff if he still sucks? This ain't no beauty pageant.

BurgundyNGold
08-16-2007, 02:35 PM
There must be a few of those blank ARE/AA/ BL $10M-$30M-5 years contracts lying around in someone's desk. Chris Cooley certainly deserves something like that.
Give or take, I'm thinking that's about what he gets. Maybe a little bigger SB, but everything else won't be too much different.

dj_stouty
08-16-2007, 02:44 PM
David Elfin is an idiot, or worse, a journalist who makes the news rather than writing about it. As Shally said, this Elfin tantrum smacks of something personal. Did Lloyd refuse an interview, or make some comment about Elfin's mother?

This is an editorial blog...not a journalistic piece of work. Big difference.


I'm glad to hear Elfin make this claim. Many of us have tossed around the exact same idea.

MONK_in_HOF
08-16-2007, 03:01 PM
Lloyd reminds me of Gary Clark, one of my all-time favorites. he yelled and screamed and threw his helmet a few times too. these guys are some of the most fierce competitors on the planet. i dont expect them to be church choir boys.

After hearing Lloyd several times on a weekly radio show he did w/ Bram Winestein (sp?) I wouldn't dare make that comparison. I got the impression that Lloyd really wasn't passionate about football at all, rather more of a "it's not that big a deal" type attitude, evident by the responses he routinely gave callers. Clark on the other hand was one of the most fiery, passionate competitors I have ever seen play for the Skins. To me it appeared that Clark wanted to win so badly it didn't matter who he chaffed in the process. With Lloyd I am not exactly sure what causes the outbursts, but I don't sense it is a insatiable desire to win football games.

BurgundyNGold
08-16-2007, 03:02 PM
This is an editorial blog...not a journalistic piece of work. Big difference.


I'm glad to hear Elfin make this claim. Many of us have tossed around the exact same idea.
Where is CarMike when you need him, lol. ;)

Spence
08-16-2007, 03:03 PM
Gary Clark got it done on the field. That makes him the polar opposite of Brandon Lloyd.

MONK_in_HOF
08-16-2007, 03:12 PM
Hilarious!


By all indications, he doesn't seem to be running his routes or catching the ball any better. Who cares if he's buff if he still sucks? This ain't no beauty pageant.

Personally I don't really care about his physique at all. My point is, or was, or was and still is, is that if they wanted to cut him the time was last season after his crap play and jerky behavior. Not right after he comes to camp after visibly putting in lots of conditioning time in the offseason. While I agree the extra work doesn't matter if it doesn't make him a better WR, I am just speaking to the point of what message it would send to the team, and how it may be received.

shally
08-16-2007, 03:13 PM
After hearing Lloyd several times on a weekly radio show he did w/ Bram Winestein (sp?) I wouldn't make that comparison. I got the impression that Lloyd really wasn't passionate about football at all, rather more of a "it's not that big a deal" type attitude, evident by the responses he routinely gave callers. Clark on the other hand was one of the most fiery, passionate competitors I have ever seen play for the Skins. To me it appeared that Clark wanted to win so badly it didn't matter who he chaffed in the process. With Lloyd I am not exactly sure what causes the outbursts, but I don't sense it is a insatiable desire to win football games.

and clark was fearless in every aspect of receiving. he went over the middle. he went deep. he could run nearly every route there was to run.

not so with lloyd

MONK_in_HOF
08-16-2007, 03:22 PM
and clark was fearless in every aspect of receiving. he went over the middle. he went deep. he could run nearly every route there was to run.

not so with lloyd

Yup. Exactly. I was going to add that but didn't want to drag out my post.

That is one of the major reasons I think Lloyd doesn't have that insatiable desire, where nothing but winning matters. I have seen him quit on far too many plays both here and in SF to think of him as that type of person or player. Lloyd plays with a fear that Clark apparently never had.

youngestson
08-16-2007, 03:22 PM
Lloyd reminds me of Gary Clark, one of my all-time favorites. he yelled and screamed and threw his helmet a few times too. these guys are some of the most fierce competitors on the planet. i dont expect them to be church choir boys.


Lloyd reminds you of Clark? Gary Clark? The guy we had in the late 80s? How on earth does Brandon compare to Clark?

:whoknows:

skinfanjon
08-16-2007, 03:25 PM
To be fair, I think we make way to much of the helmet tossing from last season. He didn't throw it until we had given up our last gasp against Atlanta (and failed). It's not like he got bent and chucked it in the middle of a critical drive with the result of the game hanging in the balance. We blew it, he was angry, and he let his emotions spill, but it had no affect on the outcome of that game. He made plenty of mistakes in his first season here, but I do not hold that one against him. That was a game we let slip through our fingers and I was just as irritated as he was.

As for this season, I think he should be given his chance because frankly, we need him. If this team is going to become a playoff contender, it will be due in part to increased production from the receivers not named Santana Moss, and BL fits that description. If he bombs again this season, I'll run him out of town personally.

Also, I see no similarity between Clark and Lloyd as of right now, other than they both played WR for the Washington Redskins at some point in their careers. Gary was faster, had better hands, ran better routes, was better after the catch, and most importantly, was a winner. Lloyd has been nothing but a whiner thus far.

bergiemoore
08-16-2007, 03:41 PM
By all indications, he doesn't seem to be running his routes or catching the ball any better. Who cares if he's buff if he still sucks? This ain't no beauty pageant.

Has he been running at all? From what I've heard, the trainers have kept him out of most of camp.

akhhorus
08-16-2007, 03:49 PM
At least 3 or 4 people on this board have bravely tried explaining how the cap works, the Redskins' cap situation and the basic contract tactics used to make this happen with you at least six ways from Sunday. Why is this so hard for you to understand? We can resign Cooley to a top 5 TE extension -- with $10-12M SB over 5 years and still have plenty of room to sign/release other players. Geesh.

FFY lol

openallnight
08-16-2007, 04:52 PM
Last year B Lloyd was a bum granted but, this year he will be a BEAST mark my words!

70chip-on-1
08-16-2007, 04:54 PM
What do you think prompted Elfin to write this today? I wonder if Brandon had another meltdown that no one "inside" is speaking about. Who knows, maybe it happens everyday. After attending most of the home games last year, and witnessing several practices this year, it appears as if he has no friends. He occasionally shares a few words with Springs.. Most of the time he just stands there talking to himself.. by HIMSELF. Looney Tunes Alert!

We should just use him up this year.. put em over the middle and give em the high-risk rookie routes. Then Bag 'em this winter if he doesn't surprise. Use him, like he hustled us.

openallnight
08-16-2007, 05:06 PM
What do you think prompted Elfin to write this today? I wonder if Brandon had another meltdown that no one "inside" is speaking about. Who knows, maybe it happens everyday. After attending most of the home games last year, and witnessing several practices this year, it appears as if he has no friends. He occasionally shares a few words with Springs.. Most of the time he just stands there talking to himself.. by HIMSELF. Looney Tunes Alert!

We should just use him up this year.. put em over the middle and give em the high-risk rookie routes. Then Bag 'em this winter if he doesn't surprise. Use him, like he hustled us.

The 1st TC session I went to he was riding the bike w/ Portis and they were chatting.
The 2nd TC session he was hanging out w/ Moss quite a bit.

MONK_in_HOF
08-16-2007, 05:27 PM
What do you think prompted Elfin to write this today? I wonder if Brandon had another meltdown that no one "inside" is speaking about. Who knows, maybe it happens everyday. After attending most of the home games last year, and witnessing several practices this year, it appears as if he has no friends. He occasionally shares a few words with Springs.. Most of the time he just stands there talking to himself.. by HIMSELF. Looney Tunes Alert!

We should just use him up this year.. put em over the middle and give em the high-risk rookie routes. Then Bag 'em this winter if he doesn't surprise. Use him, like he hustled us.

I might be B. Lloyd's biggest critic here from day 1 but I don't think that he hustled us. He didn't put a gun to the Skins FO and force them to throw around picks and bonuses to get him. I don't blame him for taking what he could get, I blame the Skins for giving what he got. We hustled ourselves, AGAIN. :doh:

Death_Venom
08-16-2007, 06:20 PM
By all indications, he doesn't seem to be running his routes or catching the ball any better. Who cares if he's buff if he still sucks? This ain't no beauty pageant.

What indications?


To be fair, I think we make way to much of the helmet tossing from last season. He didn't throw it until we had given up our last gasp against Atlanta (and failed). It's not like he got bent and chucked it in the middle of a critical drive with the result of the game hanging in the balance. We blew it, he was angry, and he let his emotions spill, but it had no affect on the outcome of that game. He made plenty of mistakes in his first season here, but I do not hold that one against him. That was a game we let slip through our fingers and I was just as irritated as he was.


I, too, feel that that incident has been turned into a huge, overblown situation...........Get past it, get over it-and let's see if Lloyd can produce this year..........If not we need to find a way to cut him, trade him-or whatever it takes to remove him from the team............

jtovb2005
08-16-2007, 06:33 PM
Elfin is blind to the cap ramifications of such a move. He is the same guy who postulated the Lavar for Moss deal a few years back. THe Redskins could not afford to release or trade both AA and LLoyd this year. They chose to keep Lloyd. LLoyd has one more year as a Redskin and releasing him will be more pallatable next year.

HOWEVER we better hope he sticks because releasing him will make it hard to give Cooley an extension next year and almost impossible to give Taylor one as well.

Not to mention the fact he has not even played a down yet? Come on, he had a crappy year last year no doubt but jeez lets get crazy when and if he stinks again. As CNY says he is here like it or not, big bucks was spent and he is one of our main receivers. He is NOT going anywhere this year baring some sort of TO moment.

Battle Cat
08-16-2007, 08:04 PM
I say we give Lloyd another chance. Is it just me or do I remember Gary Clark stomping up and down the sidelines cussing every coach and every person that would listen at times.

SpicyMcHaggis
08-16-2007, 08:10 PM
I say we give Lloyd another chance. Is it just me or do I remember Gary Clark stomping up and down the sidelines cussing every coach and every person that would listen at times.
I don't think the problem with Lloyd is just that he is a terrible guy to be around. I think the problem is that he is a terrible guy to be around and he sucks as a receiver.

BurgundyNGold
08-16-2007, 11:58 PM
What indications?
My watching Lloyd on multiple days. Also redskin_rich watching Lloyd on multiple days. Other posters witnessed the same thing in their camp reports. I also recall reading a blog or two from JLC or Elfin or someone stating the same thing. He didn't look good before he got hurt.

native skin
08-17-2007, 12:12 AM
I wouldn't jump the gun on this. Let's see what guy has before we all torch the place. Who knows, maybe he'll be a surprise.

colkurtz
08-17-2007, 12:14 AM
I think the fact that they are bringing in a guy like Stinkston says a lot about BL [NOT trying to hijack this thread].

We get nothing by cutting him - regarding the cap. See what he does and then if he still sux or has tude - dump him at the end of the season.

Personally, i would be very surprised if he is a Redskins next season.

smoak
08-17-2007, 06:07 AM
Not to change the subject, but I definately think Archuleta has the skills to play SS in the NFL. What he doesn't have is the speed to cover a receiver or tight end without a pass rush. Not many SS's do. I think he'll probably have a pretty good year for Chicago. He's no beast, but he can still play if the front 4 can get pressure.

See, I have to throw a flag on that and I don't want to highjack the thread, but AA looked lost last year. He was a shell of his former self and while I think he can play SS in the NFL, I don't ever expect himk to get back to where he was in his first few years (which BTW wasn't phenominal to begin with). Reddskins fans overrated him from the second he signed IMO, but he still under performed... Pass rush or no pass rush the guy simply can not cover. I could get open on him and I'm fat (not to mention ugly).

American Soldier
08-17-2007, 07:09 AM
Lloyd reminds me of Gary Clark, one of my all-time favorites. he yelled and screamed and threw his helmet a few times too. these guys are some of the most fierce competitors on the planet. i dont expect them to be church choir boys.

Spoken like a true FOOTBALL fan. I was listening to Ray Lewis on the Dan Patrick show yesterday. He was taking about how the NFL has gotten soft (I'm paraphrasing). Some of our fans have gotten soft as marshmellows! Some of us drool in delight while watching reality tv shows like COPS, yet we jump on our soup box when a player throws a helmet because he want's to win!?

Football is a game of fight. We grit our teeth. We bleed. We grunt in the trenches. Hell, we break bones. Helmets get thrown, player's get pissed.

Nuff said.

SpicyMcHaggis
08-17-2007, 07:20 AM
Spoken like a true FOOTBALL fan. I was listening to Ray Lewis on the Dan Patrick show yesterday. He was taking about how the NFL has gotten soft (I'm paraphrasing). Some of our fans have gotten soft as marshmellows! Some of us drool in delight while watching reality tv shows like COPS, yet we jump on our soup box when a player throws a helmet because he want's to win!?

Football is a game of fight. We grit our teeth. We bleed. We grunt in the trenches. Hell, we break bones. Helmets get thrown, player's get pissed.

Nuff said.
Of all the things you listed, Lloyd has only done the last two. He has neither fought, gritted his teeth, bled, grunted in the trenches, broken bones, or, most importantly, scored touchdowns or amassed receiving yards.
If he starts doing all those things, or even just the last two, he can get pissed all he wants for all I care.

American Soldier
08-17-2007, 07:23 AM
I'm going to wait and see how he does in the Steelers game (if he plays), before I pass judgement on Lloyd. But this shinsplints crap is pissing me off. He's getting paid million$ and can't play cuz of shinsplints?!?!? F-that!!!


Dude have you ever had shinsplints?? I got them while in Marine Corp Boot camp because of all the running in boots. I've also broken my tibia and fibula playing football. When I got shinsplints, the pulling sensation felt almost the same as when I broke it. Painful as hell. It doesn't go away by millions of dollars, although $6 million would get him some new and improved bionic ones. Just a little joke there. :bigeyes:

redskin_rich
08-17-2007, 07:24 AM
Spoken like a true FOOTBALL fan. I was listening to Ray Lewis on the Dan Patrick show yesterday. He was taking about how the NFL has gotten soft (I'm paraphrasing). Some of our fans have gotten soft as marshmellows! Some of us drool in delight while watching reality tv shows like COPS, yet we jump on our soup box when a player throws a helmet because he want's to win!?

Football is a game of fight. We grit our teeth. We bleed. We grunt in the trenches. Hell, we break bones. Helmets get thrown, player's get pissed.

Nuff said.Riiiight...

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/7425/lloydducknp3.gif

SpicyMcHaggis
08-17-2007, 07:31 AM
Riiiight...

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/7425/lloydducknp3.gif

If you look very closely, you can definitely see Lloyd gritting his teeth there.

redwolf1218
08-17-2007, 08:12 AM
Lloyd reminds you of Clark? Gary Clark? The guy we had in the late 80s? How on earth does Brandon compare to Clark?

:whoknows:

i meant because he was a hot head. Clark had screaming matches on the sidelines, kicked at over thrown balls, and threw a lot of fits. he also dropped a lot of balls (see the beginning of the superbowl against Denver) but he made up for it in time. i was hoping that my interpretation of Lloyd's outbursts as a burning desire to win would be comparable to Clark, but lots of people seem to think from his interviews that his attitude is more one of complacency and his tyrades are nothing more than selfish and childish tantrums. i will maintain hope that this is not the case. i certainly wouldnt cut him now. i just hope he can produce this year and prove all his doubters wrong.

openallnight
08-17-2007, 08:51 AM
i meant because he was a hot head. Clark had screaming matches on the sidelines, kicked at over thrown balls, and threw a lot of fits. he also dropped a lot of balls (see the beginning of the superbowl against Denver) but he made up for it in time. i was hoping that my interpretation of Lloyd's outbursts as a burning desire to win would be comparable to Clark, but lots of people seem to think from his interviews that his attitude is more one of complacency and his tyrades are nothing more than selfish and childish tantrums. i will maintain hope that this is not the case. i certainly wouldnt cut him now. i just hope he can produce this year and prove all his doubters wrong.

I remember Clark would drive me nuts with his drops. He'd always do this move where he'd leave his feet for everything. If it was at his chest level he'd jump up and catch it at his waist level. If it was at his head level he would jump up and catch it at his chest level. Often times this resulted in the ball bouncing off his shoulder pads. Although, with that said he always seemed to come up with the big catch when it mattered the most towards the end of games.

James F. Quinn
08-17-2007, 09:19 AM
What do you think prompted Elfin to write this today?

Here's a little inside sports skinny. At the end of the season, David goes and reads the fan message boards and compiles a list of complaints: BL is a malcontent, MB is finished, Dockery was overrated, etc.

Then he prints them out and puts them on a big cork board. When he can't think of a column topic, he throws his lucky dart and wherever it sticks; that's what he writes about.

Otherwise he'd have to spend more time at Redskins park and really have to work hard to dig out stories. You know, like a real reporter?

Redskinfan28
08-17-2007, 09:39 AM
Elfin is blind to the cap ramifications of such a move. He is the same guy who postulated the Lavar for Moss deal a few years back. THe Redskins could not afford to release or trade both AA and LLoyd this year. They chose to keep Lloyd. LLoyd has one more year as a Redskin and releasing him will be more pallatable next year.

HOWEVER we better hope he sticks because releasing him will make it hard to give Cooley an extension next year and almost impossible to give Taylor one as well.

Unfortunately, given his attitude, I think the Lloyd signing will rank up there with the AA signing at the end of the day.

Hr fan
08-17-2007, 09:50 AM
Unfortunately, given his attitude, I think the Lloyd signing will rank up there with the AA signing at the end of the day.

It already does (though I can't remember AA picking up a 15 yd penalty).

akhhorus
08-17-2007, 09:51 AM
Spoken like a true FOOTBALL fan. I was listening to Ray Lewis on the Dan Patrick show yesterday. He was taking about how the NFL has gotten soft (I'm paraphrasing). Some of our fans have gotten soft as marshmellows! Some of us drool in delight while watching reality tv shows like COPS, yet we jump on our soup box when a player throws a helmet because he want's to win!?

Football is a game of fight. We grit our teeth. We bleed. We grunt in the trenches. Hell, we break bones. Helmets get thrown, player's get pissed.

Nuff said.

And throwing your helmet is a 15 yard personal foul and hurts your team anyway you want to slice it and for whatever reason its done.

bergiemoore
08-17-2007, 09:56 AM
It already does (though I can't remember AA picking up a 15 yd penalty).

I remember him surrendering 15+ yards on several passing attempts over the middle...

Seriously, trying to figure out which was the worse signing between AA and BL is trying to figure out who is the tallest pygmy.

RedHokieSkin
08-17-2007, 10:49 AM
I really think everyone is blowing the helmet throwing thing out of proportion. He made a mistake. How many 15 yard penalties has he caused? How many has Sean Taylor caused? Remember the spitting incident? We forgot about that real quick. Yeah, I know BL's got some other issues, but harping on about one stupid play he made is getting kind of ridiculous.

akhhorus
08-17-2007, 10:51 AM
I really think everyone is blowing the helmet throwing thing out of proportion. He made a mistake. How many 15 yard penalties has he caused? How many has Sean Taylor caused? Remember the spitting incident? We forgot about that real quick. Yeah, I know BL's got some other issues, but harping on about one stupid play he made is getting kind of ridiculous.

Taylor makes plays on the field though. Lloyd doesn't. Taylor still has hurt the skins too much with his penalties(although they've stopped) in the past, and he's a bone head for those--but he performs on the field.

Spence
08-17-2007, 11:10 AM
23 catches by Lloyd last year. Zero touchdowns. The guy had more personal foul penalties than touchdowns. That's the bottom line on Brandon Lloyd in 2006. Maybe he'll do better in 2007. I sure hope so. But don't tell me his 2006 season was anything but a colossal embarrassment for him and the people who brought him here and signed him to a big contract.

He sucked.

American Soldier
08-17-2007, 11:26 AM
After hearing Lloyd several times on a weekly radio show he did w/ Bram Winestein (sp?) I wouldn't dare make that comparison. I got the impression that Lloyd really wasn't passionate about football at all, rather more of a "it's not that big a deal" type attitude, evident by the responses he routinely gave callers. Clark on the other hand was one of the most fiery, passionate competitors I have ever seen play for the Skins. To me it appeared that Clark wanted to win so badly it didn't matter who he chaffed in the process. With Lloyd I am not exactly sure what causes the outbursts, but I don't sense it is a insatiable desire to win football games.

This my friend get's to the core of the B Lloyd issue for me. Great observation!!
Most of the points on this thread are anti-Lloyd. I've been pretty objective to most of the Lloyd haters here because everyone had a bad season last year. However, the "scape goat" continues to be Lloyd. And as we all know, once the boulder get's rolling, it's hard to stop. A player's desire or passion is hard to measure unless you're out there on the practice field or on the sidelines with him during the games. His ability to make other's laugh or having a knack for saying the right thing at the right time is a far cry from an indication of a desire to play. CP has indicated verbally on more than one occasion that he just needed to get away from football. That is a clear indicator. The truth of the matter is if you've been playing football since you were 5 years old, you do have your moments. Especially when the NFL dilutes the pure game with all the business stuff. If Lloyd doesn't have the desire to play the game he should retire in his 7th year (in order to be vested. Which is prudent). However, that goes for any player on the Redskins. Last years performance would lead a lot of people to believe that there was more than one player that lost a passion for the game. I suspect Lloyd to have a better year on the field.

American Soldier
08-17-2007, 11:49 AM
Of all the things you listed, Lloyd has only done the last two. He has neither fought, gritted his teeth, bled, grunted in the trenches, broken bones, or, most importantly, scored touchdowns or amassed receiving yards.
If he starts doing all those things, or even just the last two, he can get pissed all he wants for all I care.

How many player did you see do that on last year's team? You added the touchdowns and the receiving yards. Who amassed those? Did our QB suck? Did our our offense suck? Did our team suck? Were you pissed? Did you grit your teeth? Did you break a remote?

Stop scape-goating this guy!!

American Soldier
08-17-2007, 11:56 AM
Riiiight...

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/7425/lloydducknp3.gif


What in the world does that play have to do with what I wrote? He thought the throw was going to another receiver.

But since you're so caught on the negative, try this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me72aGsDiCo

akhhorus
08-17-2007, 12:05 PM
How many player did you see do that on last year's team? You added the touchdowns and the receiving yards. Who amassed those?

Lloyd was 5th in receptions for the team(behind Moss, Betts, ARE and Cooley) and 4th in yardage. And the skins had the 13th best passing offense, so this argument that the passing game sucked is in error.

Did our QB suck?

Lloyd didn't improve when Campbell came in.

Did our our offense suck?

Not really. 7th best in the NFL in yards per game.

Did our team suck? Were you pissed? Did you grit your teeth? Did you break a remote?

Stop scape-goating this guy!!

No one is blaming him for anything except his own inability to perform. Please explain why you think anyone is scapegoating him.

American Soldier
08-17-2007, 12:27 PM
Lloyd was 5th in receptions for the team(behind Moss, Betts, ARE and Cooley) and 4th in yardage. And the skins had the 13th best passing offense, so this argument that the passing game sucked is in error.



Lloyd didn't improve when Campbell came in.



Not really. 7th best in the NFL in yards per game.



No one is blaming him for anything except his own inability to perform. Please explain why you think anyone is scapegoating him.

Are you saying this 5-11 team had a great offense? That yards per game stat is crap if you're not scoring touchdowns. Campbell didn't make a difference when he came in, other than the ability to throw deep. This ability coupled with a few completions opened up the run game. Which receiver's stats improved when JC came in?
You can throw stats out all you want. The team lost games last year because of chemistry which takes more than just Lloyd to create. He seems to be the only player that get's "DC treatment". We're always running players out of town prematurely. Throw him the ball once in a while, then judge his performance. How many times was the ball thrown his way beside the measly 23 receptions for the year?

He has the ability:

2005: Posted NFL career-highs and team-highs in receptions (48) and receiving yards (733). He also logged five touchdown catches.

In Week 3 vs. Dallas, he recorded four catches for 142 yards and two touchdowns, including an 89-yard touchdown pass.

In Week 4 at Arizona, he logged seven receptions for 102 yards.

In Week 11 vs. Seattle, he caught seven passes for 119 yards and one touchdown.

esmith1790
08-17-2007, 12:39 PM
Are you saying this 5-11 team had a great offense? That yards per game stat is crap if you're not scoring touchdowns. Campbell didn't make a difference when he came in, other than the ability to throw deep. This ability coupled with a few completions opened up the run game. Which receiver's stats improved when JC came in?
You can throw stats out all you want. The team lost games last year because of chemistry which takes more than just Lloyd to create. He seems to be the only player that get's "DC treatment". We're always running players out of town prematurely. Throw him the ball once in a while, then judge his performance. How many times was the ball thrown his way beside the measly 23 receptions for the year?

He has the ability:

2005: Posted NFL career-highs and team-highs in receptions (48) and receiving yards (733). He also logged five touchdown catches.

In Week 3 vs. Dallas, he recorded four catches for 142 yards and two touchdowns, including an 89-yard touchdown pass.

In Week 4 at Arizona, he logged seven receptions for 102 yards.

In Week 11 vs. Seattle, he caught seven passes for 119 yards and one touchdown.

the 49ers were behind in alot of games and he was the #1 receiver and averaged 3 catches a game as the top WR. Not sure what you are expecting from him, not sure his ability translates to an offense where he isnt the main guy. I think its all mental for him and he gets immature really fast, instead of be the best team player he can be.

SpicyMcHaggis
08-17-2007, 12:42 PM
How many player did you see do that on last year's team?
Not very many, but a few did.

You added the touchdowns and the receiving yards. Who amassed those?
Who amassed more than Lloyd? Well, let's see:
Yards: Cooley, Moss, Betts, Randle El.
TDs: Cooley, Moss, Betts, Randle El, Sellers, Thrash, Yoder, Portis, Duckett.

Did our QB suck?
Pretty much. But not as much as Lloyd.

Did our our offense suck?
No.

Did our team suck?
Yes.

Were you pissed?
Yes.

Did you grit your teeth?
Yes.

Did you break a remote?
No. That would be pretty idiotic since I watch the games on my pc.

Stop scape-goating this guy!!
I'm not. Please point out where I said that he was the only reason we failed last season.
I'm saying he sucked. That is not disputable. He was the worst starting receiver in the NFL, and lost his starting job to a WR who has yet to prove he can be a good #2 WR.
If you ask me whether it was all his fault we were 5-11, the answer is obviously no. Please check any defensive line thread to see my opinion on that.

akhhorus
08-17-2007, 12:43 PM
Are you saying this 5-11 team had a great offense? That yards per game stat is crap if you're not scoring touchdowns.

The Skins were 9th in the NFL in scoring offense.

Campbell didn't make a difference when he came in, other than the ability to throw deep.

LOL. So, Campbell made no difference in the passing offense, except throwing it deep LOL. Thats hilarious.

This ability coupled with a few completions opened up the run game. Which receiver's stats improved when JC came in?
You can throw stats out all you want. The team lost games last year because of chemistry which takes more than just Lloyd to create.

They lost games due to the defense.

He seems to be the only player that get's "DC treatment". We're always running players out of town prematurely. Throw him the ball once in a while, then judge his performance. How many times was the ball thrown his way beside the measly 23 receptions for the year?

http://www.fftoday.com/stats/playerprofile.php?PlayerID=2294

57 times he was the target.

He has the ability:

2005: Posted NFL career-highs and team-highs in receptions (48) and receiving yards (733). He also logged five touchdown catches.

In Week 3 vs. Dallas, he recorded four catches for 142 yards and two touchdowns, including an 89-yard touchdown pass.

In Week 4 at Arizona, he logged seven receptions for 102 yards.

In Week 11 vs. Seattle, he caught seven passes for 119 yards and one touchdown.

So what? Lloyd had a decent 2005 and a crappy 2006. And where has anyone scapegoated him for anything?

SpicyMcHaggis
08-17-2007, 12:44 PM
Are you saying this 5-11 team had a great offense? That yards per game stat is crap if you're not scoring touchdowns. Campbell didn't make a difference when he came in, other than the ability to throw deep. This ability coupled with a few completions opened up the run game. Which receiver's stats improved when JC came in?
You can throw stats out all you want. The team lost games last year because of chemistry which takes more than just Lloyd to create. He seems to be the only player that get's "DC treatment". We're always running players out of town prematurely. Throw him the ball once in a while, then judge his performance. How many times was the ball thrown his way beside the measly 23 receptions for the year?

He has the ability:

2005: Posted NFL career-highs and team-highs in receptions (48) and receiving yards (733). He also logged five touchdown catches.

In Week 3 vs. Dallas, he recorded four catches for 142 yards and two touchdowns, including an 89-yard touchdown pass.

In Week 4 at Arizona, he logged seven receptions for 102 yards.

In Week 11 vs. Seattle, he caught seven passes for 119 yards and one touchdown.
Wow. I thought you were trying to defend him. I don't see how posting his absolutely mediocre career highs achieves that goal.

dj_stouty
08-17-2007, 12:48 PM
I might be B. Lloyd's biggest critic here from day 1 but I don't think that he hustled us.

I certainly agree with this. The FO knew exactly what they were getting into with Brandon Lloyd. His history of being a challenging teamate goes all the way back to his days at University of Illinois...and probably even deeper than that. If the Brandon experiment fails, the FO has no one to blame but themselves. (Especially considering we used 2 draft picks to obtain him)

RedHokieSkin
08-17-2007, 02:24 PM
Who amassed more than Lloyd? Well, let's see:
Yards: Cooley, Moss, Betts, Randle El.
TDs: Cooley, Moss, Betts, Randle El, Sellers, Thrash, Yoder, Portis, Duckett.


I don't dispute your point, but based on the context in which AS used the word, I think he meant amassed as in 'accumulated a large quantity of'...not just 'accumulated more than Lloyd'. I don't see that anyone amassed yardage or TDs by the definition he meant.

Our best receiver Moss had a good year for a #2 WR, but poor for a #1, especially for a player like him. Just because of this, I think you can hold BL totally accountable for his behavior, but only partially for his stats.

I'm saying he sucked. That is not disputable. He was the worst starting receiver in the NFL, and lost his starting job to a WR who has yet to prove he can be a good #2 WR.

I was going to try to dispute this, but I found out you're right. He and Alvis Whitted sucked the most.

SpicyMcHaggis
08-17-2007, 02:39 PM
I don't dispute your point, but based on the context in which AS used the word, I think he meant amassed as in 'accumulated a large quantity of'...not just 'accumulated more than Lloyd'. I don't see that anyone amassed yardage or TDs by the definition he meant.

Our best receiver Moss had a good year for a #2 WR, but poor for a #1, especially for a player like him. Just because of this, I think you can hold BL totally accountable for his behavior, but only partially for his stats.



I was going to try to dispute this, but I found out you're right. He and Alvis Whitted sucked the most.
Yeah..unfortunately he did suck that badly.

As for the stats, you're right, but Moss wasn't 100% for much of the season, and when he was, he still proved he could take over games, like the Jaguars one.
As for the other guys, they were all playing in the same conditions, yet still managed to put up better numbers than Lloyd, who initially also had the benefit of the starting spot.

akhhorus
08-17-2007, 02:46 PM
I don't dispute your point, but based on the context in which AS used the word, I think he meant amassed as in 'accumulated a large quantity of'...not just 'accumulated more than Lloyd'. I don't see that anyone amassed yardage or TDs by the definition he meant.

Our best receiver Moss had a good year for a #2 WR, but poor for a #1, especially for a player like him. Just because of this, I think you can hold BL totally accountable for his behavior, but only partially for his stats.

I disagree with this. Moss' production was down from 2005, but Cooley, Betts and ARE had no problem out-catching Lloyd in 2006. The Skins were 14th in receptions in the NFL in 2006 and 13th in receving yardage, so their production wasn't the problem. Lloyd was just unable to produce. Even if we take the factor in which Moss' stats dropped and scale Lloyd's stats upwards with that, he still would have had: 35 catches for 685 yards. Thats still pretty poor.

MONK_in_HOF
08-17-2007, 03:23 PM
I certainly agree with this. The FO knew exactly what they were getting into with Brandon Lloyd. His history of being a challenging teamate goes all the way back to his days at University of Illinois...and probably even deeper than that. If the Brandon experiment fails, the FO has no one to blame but themselves. (Especially considering we used 2 draft picks to obtain him)

Agreed. I thought Antonio Bryant was the best FA WR option for the Skins that year (excluding Wayne), but apparently the idea of him as FA WR was dismissed due to his character flaws. He was cheaper and IMO more talented and football driven. Not sure how Bryant would have worked out and I know it is hindsight but .......a front loaded 4 years $15 million and no picks sounds much better than Lloyd's 6 year $30 million w/ 2 picks to me.

On a different note, I want to add that even thought I have been opposed to the Lloyd deal since it was conceived, I have never blamed him for anything other than being a bad football player and even worse signing for the Skins. Also I don't see him as a scapegoat for 2006, and don't think the helmet tossing was that big a deal either except it put his already questionable character in the spotlight. However I do think this move, along with others, has really put the Skins roster behind the talent curve from top to bottom.

BurgundyNGold
08-17-2007, 03:55 PM
He has the ability:

2005: Posted NFL career-highs and team-highs in receptions (48) and receiving yards (733). He also logged five touchdown catches.
Just to put this into perspective... these are Lloyd's career highs, right?

Rod Gardner topped 48 receptions in 3 of his 4 seasons in DC (46, 71, 59, 51). He also topped 733 receiving yards twice, each in his first 2 years (741, 1006, 600, 650).

Wow, Lloyd does suck.

SpicyMcHaggis
08-17-2007, 04:24 PM
Agreed. I thought Antonio Bryant was the best FA WR option for the Skins that year (excluding Wayne), but apparently the idea of him as FA WR was dismissed due to his character flaws. He was cheaper and IMO more talented and football driven. Not sure how Bryant would have worked out and I know it is hindsight but .......a front loaded 4 years $15 million and no picks sounds much better than Lloyd's 6 year $30 million w/ 2 picks to me.

On a different note, I want to add that even thought I have been opposed to the Lloyd deal since it was conceived, I have never blamed him for anything other than being a bad football player and even worse signing for the Skins. Also I don't see him as a scapegoat for 2006, and don't think the helmet tossing was that big a deal either except it put his already questionable character in the spotlight. However I do think this move, along with others, has really put the Skins roster behind the talent curve from top to bottom.
Perfect. Exactly my feelings.
Just to put this into perspective... these are Lloyd's career highs, right?

Rod Gardner topped 48 receptions in 3 of his 4 seasons in DC (46, 71, 59, 51). He also topped 733 receiving yards twice, each in his first 2 years (741, 1006, 600, 650).

Wow, Lloyd does suck.
The funny part is that those stats were actually supposed to help Lloyd.

helimech24
08-17-2007, 04:39 PM
It will be pretty bad if Pink-stunk beats out Lloyd as a #2 or #3

akhhorus
08-17-2007, 04:57 PM
Perfect. Exactly my feelings.

The funny part is that those stats were actually supposed to help Lloyd.

And TO had 1 less reception in 2005 than Lloyd did. However, TO did only play 7 games that year. That reception total made Lloyd 29th in catches...in the NFC, tied with Tony Fisher and Greg Lewis.

esmith1790
08-17-2007, 05:00 PM
Just to put this into perspective... these are Lloyd's career highs, right?

Rod Gardner topped 48 receptions in 3 of his 4 seasons in DC (46, 71, 59, 51). He also topped 733 receiving yards twice, each in his first 2 years (741, 1006, 600, 650).

Wow, Lloyd does suck.

I was looking at some football cards and saw Rod's stats, if only lloyd could produce Gardners stats in Washington.

SpicyMcHaggis
08-17-2007, 05:05 PM
And TO had 1 less reception in 2005 than Lloyd did. However, TO did only play 7 games that year. That reception total made Lloyd 29th in catches...in the NFC, tied with Tony Fisher and Greg Lewis.
Yet somehow Lloyd managed to cut that already mediocre production in half last year..dropping to a whopping 75th in the NFC and 145th overall. This by a player who started 12 games and played in 15.

BurgundyNGold
08-17-2007, 05:12 PM
I was looking at some football cards and saw Rod's stats, if only lloyd could produce Gardners stats in Washington.
How sad is it when Redskin fans aspire that Lloyd merely be as good as Rod Gardner?

akhhorus
08-17-2007, 05:14 PM
Yet somehow Lloyd managed to cut that already mediocre production in half last year..dropping to a whopping 75th in the NFC and 145th overall. This by a player who started 12 games and played in 15.

Man, stop scapegoating him for his own poor performance, hater!

SpicyMcHaggis
08-17-2007, 05:20 PM
Man, stop scapegoating him for his own poor performance, hater!
I'm sorry...I'm so sorry...but I just hate him so much..it's like he is Dan Marino and I'm Ray Finkle...I can't help it...it's all his fault!!!

helimech24
08-17-2007, 07:09 PM
I'm sorry...I'm so sorry...but I just hate him so much..it's like he is Dan Marino and I'm Ray Finkle...I can't help it...it's all his fault!!!
laces out DAN!!

NCskinsfanatic
08-17-2007, 07:32 PM
Ace Ventura references...gotta luv it...lol

Slobberknocker
08-17-2007, 09:35 PM
Unbelievable.

I work out six days a week and occasionally get shin splints from squatting more than I can handle.

Squatting is my least favorite exercise but probably the best for developing the quads and creating explosion from the point of attack.

Shin splints hurt like hell. They're a byproduct of trying too hard. Many of you will never know this because you'll never get them from sitting on the couch.

I guess nobody believes Brandon's journals. Oh, well. Live the hate.

I hope there's an open competition starting this weekend for the #2 spot. Maybe Espy will step up. Maybe Lloyd will.

But hatin' your own player is just wrong.

akhhorus
08-17-2007, 09:38 PM
Unbelievable.

I work out six days a week and occasionally get shin splints from squatting more than I can handle.

Squatting is my least favorite exercise but probably the best for developing the quads and creating explosion from the point of attack.

Shin splints hurt like hell. They're a byproduct of trying too hard. Many of you will never know this because you'll never get them from sitting on the couch.

I guess nobody believes Brandon's journals. Oh, well. Live the hate.

I hope there's an open competition starting this weekend for the #2 spot. Maybe Espy will step up. Maybe Lloyd will.

But hatin' your own player is just wrong.

I didn't know he had shin splits, and still thinks he sucks. And he is what he is and what he isn't is a good WR right now--shin splits or not.

helimech24
08-17-2007, 10:05 PM
Unbelievable.

I work out six days a week and occasionally get shin splints from squatting more than I can handle.

Squatting is my least favorite exercise but probably the best for developing the quads and creating explosion from the point of attack.

Shin splints hurt like hell. They're a byproduct of trying too hard. Many of you will never know this because you'll never get them from sitting on the couch.

I guess nobody believes Brandon's journals. Oh, well. Live the hate.

I hope there's an open competition starting this weekend for the #2 spot. Maybe Espy will step up. Maybe Lloyd will.

But hatin' your own player is just wrong.First of all, you should realize that you are talking to mixed company here on the board. As an ex-army guy that might know a little bit about exercising and shin splints. I did a bit of research on how you get them:

From Medicinenet.com (http://www.medicinenet.com/shin_splints/article.htm):
A primary culprit causing shin splints is a sudden increase in distance or intensity of a workout schedule. This increase in muscle work can be associated with inflammation of the lower leg muscles, those muscles used in lifting the foot (the motion during which the foot pivots toward the tibia). Such a situation can be aggravated by a tendency to pronate the foot (roll it excessively inward onto the arch).

Similarly, a tight Achilles tendon or weak ankle muscles are also often implicated in the development of shin splints.

This doesn't mean he has been working extra hard in practice or extra hard work. It means he has been trying to run longer distances or trying to get bigger, neither of which were the problem last year. He couldn't get open, didn't run his routes very well, and didn't catch the ball very well. Not that he didn't run far enough down the field.

redskin_rich
08-17-2007, 10:11 PM
Unbelievable.

I work out six days a week and occasionally get shin splints from squatting more than I can handle.

Squatting is my least favorite exercise but probably the best for developing the quads and creating explosion from the point of attack.

Shin splints hurt like hell. They're a byproduct of trying too hard. Many of you will never know this because you'll never get them from sitting on the couch.

I guess nobody believes Brandon's journals. Oh, well. Live the hate.

I hope there's an open competition starting this weekend for the #2 spot. Maybe Espy will step up. Maybe Lloyd will.

But hatin' your own player is just wrong.I never got shin splints from squats, I did get them from running, especially from running up and down hills.
Anyhow, watch the smart remarks and blanket statements on anybody who doesn't agree with you. You don't know any more than any other person here.

It's up to Lloyd to change the perception of many fans, not the fans to close their eyes and accept him just because he is a Redskin. Brandon needs to make plays, lots of them or he will be another historic footnote on the list of worst moves ever.

Battle Cat
08-17-2007, 11:30 PM
I work out and have found shin splints to be a repetitive stress injury. If I run on pavement allot and not on the rubber track or treadmill that gives I get shin splints. Have never gotten them from lifting weights though.

shally
08-18-2007, 12:10 AM
there is more than one condition lumped together under the generic term of "shin splints"

it can run the entire gamut of things such as tendonitis and soft tissue irritation all the way up to stress fractures. some are obviously much more serious than others. the common denominator is a sudden increase in the volume or intensity of the exercise, which is why military recruits are particularly vulnerable to them

back to lloyd. he did little or no offseason work before this year. just look at the change in his body. he obviously increased his muscle mass tremendously and that kind of thing when compounded by a tough camp is just the ticket for producing what he is suffering from now. not much can be done except stretching, anti inflammatory agents and rest. and that is exactly what camp does not do because the intensity of work is increased, along with the pressure to show what a player can do. so he is between a rock and a hard place- doubly because of his prior rep as less than a committed player. hopefully this will work out for both the team and for lloyd. hate for this to be a case of "no good deed going unpunished"

SpicyMcHaggis
08-18-2007, 12:55 AM
Unbelievable.

I work out six days a week and occasionally get shin splints from squatting more than I can handle.

Squatting is my least favorite exercise but probably the best for developing the quads and creating explosion from the point of attack.

Shin splints hurt like hell. They're a byproduct of trying too hard. Many of you will never know this because you'll never get them from sitting on the couch.

I guess nobody believes Brandon's journals. Oh, well. Live the hate.

I hope there's an open competition starting this weekend for the #2 spot. Maybe Espy will step up. Maybe Lloyd will.

But hatin' your own player is just wrong.
Once again, and this probably won't be the last time I have to repeat myself, I don't care about the shin splints, I don't care about the missed pre-season games, I don't care about missed practices, I don't care about the helmet-throwing, I don't care about the attitude...I CARE ABOUT HIS PRODUCTION ON THE FIELD. He was absolutely horrible last year. He was the worst starting receiver in the NFL. As one of the 35-ish starting receivers in football, he was 145th in receptions. How you find that acceptable is beyond me.
And before you run through the usual list of excuses, let me anticipate you by saying that, aside from Moss, who was injured quite alot (yet still doubled Lloyd's production), every other player involved in the passing game had no trouble at least nearly matching his production from 2005. Lloyd's production was half of the already mediocre total he had in 2005.
As for believing "Brandon's journals", I would have to 1)care about them and 2)actually read them before I can decide whether to believe them or not.

jtovb2005
08-18-2007, 07:51 AM
Like last years Defense he has nowhere to go but up :)

He stunk last year no question. I hope he can improve and contribute. Will he ever make up for what we spent on him? Not much hope in that but he is one of the receivers we have this year. I hope he improves.

MadDog97
08-18-2007, 09:11 AM
I think you have to give Lloyd another shot. He did work more this offseason and at least try to develop a relationship with Campbell. I think Gibbs discipline last year was a wake up call. If he comes back from the injury and gives quality time, he is a keeper. But if he shows trouble, trade him for a draft pick early in the season. This is another case why I prefer the draft to free agency for building a team. There are no guarantees as we see in Detroit and with Gardner, but develop a young player instead of getting a known problem or a player on his last legs. Keep in mind that if Campbell gets time, he will deliver the ball. We need an intact offensive line and a good QB to make our receivers shine. Right now we have the QB, but we may think Dockery was a good deal before the end of the season. But in nutshell, keep Brandon until he shows signs that he is not what I need.

Now for those of you showing love for Adam, I have one question. Have you lost your memory or your mind? If Priloeau (sp?) was healthy he would played ahead of AA. That makes the acquistion of AA and the release of Clark even more stupid. I like Landry and I feel Fletcher was a very smart move, but what if we kept Smoot, Pierce, and Clark in the first place? I hope Gholston and Montgomery develop at tackle, but we could have used another draft pick to get a DE in the past couple of years instead of wasting them on some of the RFA's.

:bangdesk:

jtovb2005
08-18-2007, 09:35 AM
Speaking of AA, what is he up to on his new team?

MadDog97
08-18-2007, 12:18 PM
I saw the video of AA on the Bears website. He and Lovie Smith seem happy but who knows until the season begins. I really am concerned about the Skins, especially the offensive line play.

colkurtz
08-18-2007, 02:04 PM
Once again, and this probably won't be the last time I have to repeat myself, I don't care about the shin splints, I don't care about the missed pre-season games, I don't care about missed practices, I don't care about the helmet-throwing, I don't care about the attitude...I CARE ABOUT HIS PRODUCTION ON THE FIELD. He was absolutely horrible last year. He was the worst starting receiver in the NFL. As one of the 35-ish starting receivers in football, he was 145th in receptions. How you find that acceptable is beyond me.
And before you run through the usual list of excuses, let me anticipate you by saying that, aside from Moss, who was injured quite alot (yet still doubled Lloyd's production), every other player involved in the passing game had no trouble at least nearly matching his production from 2005. Lloyd's production was half of the already mediocre total he had in 2005.
As for believing "Brandon's journals", I would have to 1)care about them and 2)actually read them before I can decide whether to believe them or not.

Excellent post. BL seems more serious about football this off-season with his obvious weight-lifting program and running. However, for the money we are shelling out for the guy he should have been doing that all along. I think his problems are all mental and he just doesn't seem to get open. Bringing in Pinkston tells me that the coaching staff has doubts about his being able to get ready for the opener or whether he really has "improved". Once again - let's see how he does in the next couple games. But his leash is getting shorter by the game.

When ppl start wishing for the return of Rod Gardner [or at least his production] that just scary! No one is a BL "hater" here, but if the guy sux then you've got to call it what it is and call out those who brought him here.