Heyer and Pucillo are to remain first team

[CNYSkinFan]

More proof JC should not play this week.


Undrafted rookie tackle Stephon Heyer (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Stephon+Heyer?tid=informline) and journeyman guard Mike Pucillo (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Mike+Pucillo?tid=informline) will remain with the Washington Redskins (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Washington+Redskins?tid=informline)' first-team offense to start practice this week despite allowing a hit that nearly knocked quarterback Jason Campbell out for the season during a preseason loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Pittsburgh+Steelers?tid=informline) on Saturday night, offensive line coach Joe Bugel (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Joe+Bugel?tid=informline) said yesterday.
Executives from other NFL teams who have watched the Redskins expressed serious reservations about that side of the line, and some Redskins players and staff members have echoed those thoughts privately, but Heyer and Pucillo received praise for their efforts from the coaches.

Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/20/AR2007082001984.html)

Many news articles point out that the redskins in addition to starting Heyer put him on an island last week not even throwing a TE or running back over there to help chip block a few times.

This is why you draft depth ladies and Gentlemen.

[redskin_rich]

More proof JC should not play this week.



Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/20/AR2007082001984.html)

Many news articles point out that the redskins in addition to starting Heyer put him on an island last week not even throwing a TE or running back over there to help chip block a few times.

This is why you draft depth ladies and Gentlemen.
There is no guarantee that any 3rd or 4th round draft pick would be in the mix right now. They drafted Lefotu, where is he?

I'm not understanding why they don't just put Wade at LT for now and make him the backup to both Tackles this season. I guess they are still committed to making Wade the starting LG this season.

[CNYSkinFan]

There is no guarantee that any 3rd or 4th round draft pick would be in the mix right now. They drafted Lefotu, where is he?

I'm not understanding why they don't just put Wade at LT for now and make him the backup to both Tackles this season. I guess they are still committed to making Wade the starting LG this season.
no guarantee...nothing in the NFL is guaranteed. And with our scouting department it may not have done much better. But epth on the lines are a direct result in not having enough draft picks and drafting poorly when we do.

Also Lefotu is on the second string line. He isnt doing horrible though probably is going to be on the PS this year.

[Cowboys Suck]

There is no guarantee that any 3rd or 4th round draft pick would be in the mix right now. They drafted Lefotu, where is he?

I'm not understanding why they don't just put Wade at LT for now and make him the backup to both Tackles this season. I guess they are still committed to making Wade the starting LG this season.

It would honestly make all the sense in the world to do this. I won't even begin to act like I know as much as JG and Buges when it come to OL personnel, but the OL's weaknesses are shining like a daggone rescue beacon.

I think JG and JB are taking this position transformation (forcing a square peg into a circle shaped area) personally and are going to make it work no matter what.

[RedskinsReaper21]

Not to change the subject, but the hit was hardly Heyer's fault. It was called a late hit penalty because it was late. That could have happened to any LT. I think he has proven that he could develop into quality depth. Possibly take over after Samuels calls it quits. Maybe it's just my bias for Terps.

[culpeper]

i wish they would just start pucillo and put make wade the backup at either tackle. i understand trying to get a look at what certain guys can do, but at some point the line needs to start gellin'. by the third PS game the experiments should stop and you go with your 'best available'.

[redskin_rich]

Not to change the subject, but the hit was hardly Heyer's fault. It was called a late hit penalty because it was late. That could have happened to any LT. I think he has proven that he could develop into quality depth. Possibly take over after Samuels calls it quits. Maybe it's just my bias for Terps.

It wasn't a late hit, the penalty was for lunging below the waist. Heyer got overloaded and let his man go too quick, he should have had some help but he shouldn't be out there, from a mental standpoint, anyway.

[CNYSkinFan]

Not to change the subject, but the hit was hardly Heyer's fault. It was called a late hit penalty because it was late. That could have happened to any LT. I think he has proven that he could develop into quality depth. Possibly take over after Samuels calls it quits. Maybe it's just my bias for Terps.
Maybe it is just your bias? lol I think you hit it on the head.

I don't know how Heyer has proven anything. Every bit of analysis from people who do not have the last names of Gibbs or Bugel says Heyer may have potential but he has ALOT of work to do and should not be out there starting at this point.

[akhhorus]

Not to change the subject, but the hit was hardly Heyer's fault. It was called a late hit penalty because it was late. That could have happened to any LT. I think he has proven that he could develop into quality depth. Possibly take over after Samuels calls it quits. Maybe it's just my bias for Terps.

The "hit" wasn't Heyer's fault, but the godawful blocking on the play was(which led to the hit).

[morty55]

More proof JC should not play this week.



Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/20/AR2007082001984.html)

Many news articles point out that the redskins in addition to starting Heyer put him on an island last week not even throwing a TE or running back over there to help chip block a few times.

This is why you draft depth ladies and Gentlemen.

I think Samuels is going to be ready..the ankle issue a couple of years back..that kept him out of 2005's camp didn't stop him then..it could be an Orlando Pace/Bruce Smith type aversion to camp at work here

the perception of using the draft for Lineman..on both sides of the ball is over-rated ..and offers high odds on failure ..

I'll take a free agent Joe Jacoby over a Letofu any day..

if they had used Archuletta's money on two middle rung linemen
and resigned Clark..we'd be looking at a different set of questions

Heyer and Gaither both will garner all kinds of attention this week by Comcast..and be a major talking point of the broadcast Saturday..
Comcast is linked huge to the University of Maryland..

[akhhorus]

Maybe it is just your bias? lol I think you hit it on the head.

I don't know how Heyer has proven anything. Every bit of analysis from people who do not have the last names of Gibbs or Bugel says Heyer may have potential but he has ALOT of work to do and should not be out there starting at this point.

Amen.

[culpeper]

Not to change the subject, but the hit was hardly Heyer's fault. It was called a late hit penalty because it was late. That could have happened to any LT. I think he has proven that he could develop into quality depth. Possibly take over after Samuels calls it quits. Maybe it's just my bias for Terps.

actually it wasnt a late hit. it was a hit to the knees penalty that the NFL installed after carson palmers injury. the article says pucillo should have pushed the stunt man out for heyer to pick up...im sure some blame lies on pucillo's shoulders, but i disagree it was his fault. i think they are just making excuses for heyer at this point. (HE WASNT EVEN DRAFTED! so why do we now all of the sudden think he can be good as a rookie?)

if you watch heyer he completely turns to the outside (looked as if he expected for someone to be there), and he couldnt get back inside quick enough. he was unaware as to what was in front of him. classic rookie mistake.

[Monk4HOF]

I have to admire Heyer for the way he has played. Considering the importance of the position and the intense scrutiny that comes from the fans and media in DC, I would not have wanted to be in his shoes. However, even with all the pressure, he has outplayed his current talent level. That being said, Heyer is not a starting caliber tackle right now and we are in trouble if we go into the season as the primary backup. I would hope that Wade develops into the starting guard, with the expectation that he will slide to tackle should anything happen to Samuels or Jansen. That may be a lot to ask of him, but I just don't see Pucillo as a starter. The good news is that Samuels should be back fairly soon and will make whoever is next to him a lot better - Dockery should write Samuels a check for half of that ridiculous signing bonus that Buffalo gave him.

[morty55]

actually it wasnt a late hit. it was a hit to the knees penalty that the NFL installed after carson palmers injury. the article says pucillo should have pushed the stunt man out for heyer to pick up...im sure some blame lies on pucillo's shoulders, but i disagree it was his fault. i think they are just making excuses for heyer at this point. (HE WASNT EVEN DRAFTED! so why do we now all of the sudden think he can be good as a rookie?)

if you watch heyer he completely turns to the outside (looked as if he expected for someone to be there), and he couldnt get back inside quick enough. he was unaware as to what was in front of him. classic rookie mistake.

Keiser stumbled 4 steps..and unloaded on Jason..who was prone after delivering the pass..and not expecting a hit..it may have been labeled a low-hit..but it certainly qualified as late too

that's good stuff regarding Heyer's reaction ..that is why he's out there..learning those lessons.

.I understand the risk being a topic here..but picking up rushers has been an issue with the Skins for years..the running backs leave plenty to be concerned with..all the way back to the beating Ramsey took with Betts and Candidate..being labeled awful in that respect

Since then..Brunell has routinely thrown the ball away..instead of taking a sack..and earned scorn when he is being smart..

[akhhorus]

actually it wasnt a late hit. it was a hit to the knees penalty that the NFL installed after carson palmers injury. the article says pucillo should have pushed the stunt man out for heyer to pick up...im sure some blame lies on pucillo's shoulders, but i disagree it was his fault. i think they are just making excuses for heyer at this point. (HE WASNT EVEN DRAFTED! so why do we now all of the sudden think he can be good as a rookie?)

if you watch heyer he completely turns to the outside (looked as if he expected for someone to be there), and he couldnt get back inside quick enough. he was unaware as to what was in front of him. classic rookie mistake.

Whats interesting is comparing his story arc to Gaither in Balto. Gaither should be starting for the Ravens and is the heir apparent to Ogden. Sounds like we got the wrong Terp.

[hail2skins]

From what was said, it should be blamed on both Pucillo and Heyer and not Heyer totally. I guess Gibbs and Buges does see something in this guy and they're gambling our season on it. They both should relieved that Campbell didn't get seriously hurt because they would both be marked men.

Heyer is getting some very good experience which should only help him out. Teams are overloading that left side and whoever is at QB has to account for it. I doubt the coaches would allow those blocking schemes in the regular season.

[Hr fan]

There is a school of thought that the best way to teach a kid how to swim is to throw him in at the deep end. That is what JG and JB are doing now with Wade and Heyer. The problem seems to be that if the kid starts to go down you jump in and rescue him, and revert to slower, more patient training methods. Even with the kid having going down for the second time and signs of evident distress (the number of sacks and the hit on JC) our brain trust wants to let him go down for the third time! While I don't question their expertise the rest of league scouts and executives are on this issue. Are their egos getting in the way? I hope not, but am leery.

[RedskinsReaper21]

Wow...I didnt think my Terp bias was that bad...
I didnt say I think an undrafted rookie should start at LT for us or any team really (well maybe Dallas). Just that I think he could develop into a solid backup in the mid-term and who knows in the long-term.

[Brokenstriker]

Wade filled in for Jansen and played well last season at RT ... is Heyer better than Wade at LT? (for that matter is Jansen better than Wade at RT?)

Couldn't be get a decent LG for Brunnell or Palmer ... maybe in ATL?

[morty55]

Wow...I didnt think my Terp bias was that bad...
I didnt say I think an undrafted rookie should start at LT for us or any team really (well maybe Dallas). Just that I think he could develop into a solid backup in the mid-term and who knows in the long-term.

I didn't see your post as being biased..sometimes the only response you get here..is negative if you don't have 20,000 posts

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Look, Heyer almost got the QB killed, and that is unacceptable. But let's not forget all the criticisms of pro bowler Chris Samuels over the years. He has taken a lot of heat here and everwhere at certain times in his career.

Missed blocks and missed assignments happen, and they happen to everyone. Based on how he has played thus far (small sampling, I know), I think the kid has something.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

I didn't see your post as being biased..sometimes the only response you get here..is negative if you don't have 20,000 posts

It was a bit biased. Heyer screwed up royally on that play that almost cost us the season. It was not a late hit. It was an illegal hit, but the hit was not late.

[nicefellow31]

More proof JC should not play this week.



Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/20/AR2007082001984.html)

Many news articles point out that the redskins in addition to starting Heyer put him on an island last week not even throwing a TE or running back over there to help chip block a few times.

This is why you draft depth ladies and Gentlemen.

What round was Joe Jacoby drafted? Seriously, weren't people questioning Chris Samuels abilities recently? He makes mistakes as well.

[shally]

More proof JC should not play this week.



Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/20/AR2007082001984.html)

Many news articles point out that the redskins in addition to starting Heyer put him on an island last week not even throwing a TE or running back over there to help chip block a few times.

This is why you draft depth ladies and Gentlemen.


absolutely why JC has to stay on the bench this week

[shally]

What round was Joe Jacoby drafted? Seriously, weren't people questioning Chris Samuels abilities recently? He makes mistakes as well.


not just jacoby but Starke, Hermeling, Ray Brown, Mackenzie, Bostic

every one of them was a free agent or low rounder

[akhhorus]

What round was Joe Jacoby drafted? Seriously, weren't people questioning Chris Samuels abilities recently? He makes mistakes as well.

You're not seriously comparing Samuels and Heyer are you? Wow. Samuels struggles against small speed rushers, but is one of the best and most dominating LTs in football. Heyer can run block, but clearly struggles with pass blocking and looks very raw as a player.

[nicefellow31]

You're not seriously comparing Samuels and Heyer are you? Wow. Samuels struggles against small speed rushers, but is one of the best and most dominating LTs in football. Heyer can run block, but clearly struggles with pass blocking and looks very raw as a player.

No I'm not comparing Heyer with Samuels. That is not even a close comparrison. Samuels is one of the best. No argument there. I agree that Heyer is a very raw player, but he does have potential. What I found ironic is that not too long ago people were criticizing Samuels like crazy (ie 05 Kansas City game). Now he is the "golden child." Same with Fred Smoot.

[akhhorus]

No I'm not comparing Heyer with Samuels. That is not even a close comparrison. Samuels is one of the best. No argument there. I agree that Heyer is a very raw player, but he does have potential. What I found ironic is that not too long ago people were criticizing Samuels like crazy (ie 05 Kansas City game). Now he is the "golden child." Same with Fred Smoot.

Actually it was Jansen who had the terrible game that day against Jared Allen. Smoot isn't a star by any stretch, but he's a decent CB.

I think Heyer is a lot like Derrick Dockery(and should move to guard), and he's shown that in his play so far. He has undeniable physical talent, but JLC's blog entry on him yesterday sums it up for me:

If they go with Heyer at left tackle against Terrell Suggs this Saturday they are courting disaster again. Hey, they have no depth on the O Line and few options - trust me I get that, even though it's a problem of their own creation (that's what the middle rounds of the draft are for) - but this has to stop. Like I wrote a week ago, too many people not named Bugel and Gibbs have told me this is an accident in waiting. Too many personnel people have told me the un-drafted kid just isn't ready to be protecting the blindside of the young franchise quarterback right now and that as his number of snaps in this role increases, despite him being serviceable for a series or two, that one huge error is always lurking.

[u]"Right now, he can't play," one exec said. "I don't care what the Redskins tell you, he is not an NFL left tackle right now."[/n]

The Skins can say what they want about Heyer, but they put him in position to fail. I spoke to three personnel people who watched that game who all said the same thing - Heyer isn't close to being ready for this type of challenge now, he gives up leverage and interior position too easily, he plays too tall and can't get his backside close to being low enough when pass blocking. He got run over by Brett Keisel on that sack, providing zilch in terms of impediment.

[smoak]

Campbell might end up playing behind a weak offensive line come week 1 so he might as well get used to it. Take off the skirt and lets go win a football game. The minute you try to avoid injuries, you are inviting them.

[ChiefPowhatan17]

I really think it's time to move Wade to LT. Let Heyer assume his role with the second team. He is going to be good one day, but after 2 series he got tired and then faked out. Wade should've never been moved to guard, he's just too tall, but last year he was great at RT during the Saints game.

[greatest2]

Campbell might end up playing behind a weak offensive line come week 1 so he might as well get used to it. Take off the skirt and lets go win a football game. The minute you try to avoid injuries, you are inviting them.

valid point and thought. But i rather have JC healthy week 1 and then take his skirt off and play. i would rather that then have him go down to Suggs in the 3rd preseason game before Chris comes back.

[shally]

valid point and thought. But i rather have JC healthy week 1 and then take his skirt off and play. i would rather that then have him go down to Suggs in the 3rd preseason game before Chris comes back.

agree.. it is one thing to risk him behind samuels in the regular season.. it is another to risk him in a meaningless preseason game where the o line is still unsettled

[Carmelo]

From what was said, it should be blamed on both Pucillo and Heyer and not Heyer totally. I guess Gibbs and Buges does see something in this guy and they're gambling our season on it. They both should relieved that Campbell didn't get seriously hurt because they would both be marked men.

Heyer is getting some very good experience which should only help him out. Teams are overloading that left side and whoever is at QB has to account for it. I doubt the coaches would allow those blocking schemes in the regular season.
I echo your statement but would change the word "doubt" to "hope"

[AGibbsGirl]

I think Heyer is a lot like Derrick Dockery (and should move to guard), and he's shown that in his play so far. He has undeniable physical talent

Hold up, here's a very good idea. Heyer, whom I wanna like, at 6' 6" and 320 some odd pounds, I REALLY wanna like this kid-but he is clearly not in the correct position, why not move this side of beef where his bulk and strength could be best used? To use a Rugby phrase, Speed kills and Heyer doesn't have it, nor can he stop it. I also believe this would aid our non-existent running game.

[BurgundyNGold]

Hold up, here's a very good idea. Heyer, whom I wanna like, at 6' 6" and 320 some odd pounds, I REALLY wanna like this kid-but he is clearly not in the correct position, why not move this side of beef where his bulk and strength could be best used? To use a Rugby phrase, Speed kills and Heyer doesn't have it, nor can he stop it. I also believe this would aid our non-existent running game.
That's a possibility, but without the proper foot speed, I'm not sure if he can pull and get out in fron of plays like an OG generally needs to.

[NCskinsfanatic]

That's a possibility, but without the proper foot speed, I'm not sure if he can pull and get out in fron of plays like an OG generally needs to.

He's probably got just as good a chance as Wade...if not better b/c he's still young. I also wonder if lack of speed is why we havent seen Pucillo play more up until now... we desperately need a LG to step up. I'm just not so sure there's a candidate on our roster capable of being a starting caliber LG.

[BurgundyNGold]

He's probably got just as good a chance as Wade...if not better b/c he's still young. I also wonder if lack of speed is why we havent seen Pucillo play more up until now... we desperately need a LG to step up. I'm just not so sure there's a candidate on our roster capable of being a starting caliber LG.
I don't think that Pucillo's speed looks to be bad. He's just not as strong as you would like an OG to be. He's fine for C but can get get out-muscled at times at OG against a 4-3. He might have the same problem at C against the NT in a 3-4.

[akhhorus]

That's a possibility, but without the proper foot speed, I'm not sure if he can pull and get out in fron of plays like an OG generally needs to.

But if he doesn't have the speed to pull at OG, he certainly doesn't have the speed to play OT.

[AGibbsGirl]

That's a possibility, but without the proper foot speed, I'm not sure if he can pull and get out in fron of plays like an OG generally needs to.

Yeah, I was thinking that this may be the only draw back, especially getting out of the way of a fast developing running play. My son plays Guard so I'm familiar with the position, but I thought that his strength & size would be the upside.

[skinsfan36]

well i hope they help out w/a tightend or a 6th linemen if they expect to play jc this week

[nicefellow31]

[QUOTE=akhhorus;991510]Actually it was Jansen who had the terrible game that day against Jared Allen. Smoot isn't a star by any stretch, but he's a decent CB.

According to the gamebook produced by NFL.com, on 10/16/05 J. Allen started the game as RDE which would put him over Chris Samuels. Also if you go into the Archive forum and look at the gameday thread for that game. There are numerous posts about Allen "owning" Samuels and even one saying "that was not Samuels" fault.

Yes Smoot is a decent CB. However when he left many people on this forum said he wasn't decent. When he returned, he was back to being decent.