Bush Compares Iraq to Vietnam

[Keino]

Here's the link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/22/AR2007082200323.html?hpid=topnews


"One unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like 'boat people,' 'reeducation camps' and 'killing fields,' " Bush told a receptive audience at the Veterans of Foreign Wars national convention.

Isn't this the same guy who was calling people who made the same Parallel as reasons not to go into Iraq unpatriotic?

[akhhorus]

But the continuing Vietnam war and not withdrawing in 68(which Kissinger sabotaged) led to the horrors of the Khymer Rouge, the Killing Fields, Boat People, etc.

[RedskinsDave]

I think it's a fair comparison. I doubt it's likely to be as bad as Vietnam once we leave but if it is, I don't care.

[BurgundyNGold]

But the continuing Vietnam war and not withdrawing in 68(which Kissinger sabotaged) led to the horrors of the Khymer Rouge, the Killing Fields, Boat People, etc.
Yep. And Kissinger blew it again by not continuing the Christmas bombing of the North into the Paris peace talks.

[BurgundyNGold]

I think it's a fair comparison. I doubt it's likely to be as bad as Vietnam once we leave but if it is, I don't care.
Oh, I think it'll be much worse. Vietnam for the VC was about power and control. Iraq is about ideological differences and tribal retirbution as much as thoise things, which is the kind of stuff that leads to exterminatoins.

[akhhorus]

I think it's a fair comparison. I doubt it's likely to be as bad as Vietnam once we leave but if it is, I don't care.

If anything, Yugoslavia is probably a good comparison to the situation inside of Iraq. We eliminated the strong man(we didn't kill Tito, granted) keeping the ethnic/religious factions "in line", and when he's gone, they decide to have a Battle Royale. If we pulled out, that would happen in Iraq--but its hard to say that this hasn't already been going on for a couple years already.

[BurgundyNGold]

If anything, Yugoslavia is probably a good comparison to the situation inside of Iraq. We eliminated the strong man(we didn't kill Tito, granted) keeping the ethnic/religious factions "in line", and when he's gone, they decide to have a Battle Royale. If we pulled out, that would happen in Iraq--but its hard to say that this hasn't already been going on for a couple years already.
Good example. Yugoslavia is probably the best example one might be able to give, aside from a few African examples maybe.

[Keino]

I think it's a fair comparison. I doubt it's likely to be as bad as Vietnam once we leave but if it is, I don't care.

Oh, it's not the comparison that really bothers me, it is evoking the comparison while arguing we should stay. I think it's an apt comparison, especially in light of domestic public perception of Iraq, but not as an argument for staying.

[Ibleedburgundy]

Oh, it's not the comparison that really bothers me, it is evoking the comparison while arguing we should stay. I think it's an apt comparison, especially in light of domestic public perception of Iraq, but not as an argument for staying.

I think the Republicans are more than happy to have the argument because they know how it will be framed:

"If we leave Iraq, there will be a bloodbath."

This implies that there is not already a bloodbath in Iraq and that we are actually succeeding in some ways. Simultaneously this debate obscures the more prescient argument which is to ask if our presence amounts to a net positive effect.

[BurgundyNGold]

I think the Republicans are more than happy to have the argument because they know how it will be framed:

"If we leave Iraq, there will be a bloodbath."

This implies that there is not already a bloodbath in Iraq and that we are actually succeeding in some ways. Simultaneously this debate obscures the more prescient argument which is to ask if our presence amounts to a net positive effect.
Anyone who takes a history lesson from W is deserving of the result.

[Spence]

The best example is Lebanon. Lebanon with oil.

We spent 10 years in Vietnam, dropped an unspeakable number of bombs on the country, and lost more than 58,000 American lives. The lesson wasn't that we left too soon, the lesson was that we went in when we should not have. Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand -- none of them became communist autocracies, as was predicted.

Besides, what the hell would George W. Bush know about Vietnam? I mean -- really!

[CNYSkinFan]

the title of this thread might as well be:

Bush equates pencil to pencil created 30 years ago.

[BurgundyNGold]

The best example is Lebanon. Lebanon with oil.

We spent 10 years in Vietnam, dropped an unspeakable number of bombs on the country, and lost more than 58,000 American lives. The lesson wasn't that we left too soon, the lesson was that we went in when we should not have. Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand -- none of them became communist autocracies, as was predicted.

Besides, what the hell would George W. Bush know about Vietnam? I mean -- really!
I don't see the Domino Theory really holding up in Iraq. If Iraq tumbles and becomes a(n even bigger) failed state, it doesn't tumble Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Syria or anyone else. Maybe the administration used some bastardized form of the Domino Theory as one of its weaker justifications for the invasion, but that would have been one of their worse arguments for the invasion.

Lebanon is just a borderline failed state. Sure, they have ethnicities that would love to slaughter each other, but they are not held together by the will of an iron fisted junta. Yugoslavia and Iraq both fit that rather cornerstone comparison.

[Spence]

The middle east experts I talk to use the Lebanon analogy all the time. Sunni v. Shia is there. Iraq has the Kurds, Lebanon has its Maronite Christians -- both closely aligned with western nations. And some of the outside actors will be the same, particularly Iran and Syria, which have played major roles in Lebanon and will do so in the future in Iraq. Both Lebanon and Iraq were largely secular Arab societies that are in the process of being consumed by religious extremism. I see the Yugoslavia analogy, but I think the Lebanon one is better. Not that it matters very much. Either analogy is dreadful and ominous.

[Biggie]

The middle east experts I talk to use the Lebanon analogy all the time. Sunni v. Shia is there. Iraq has the Kurds, Lebanon has its Maronite Christians -- both closely aligned with western nations. And some of the outside actors will be the same, particularly Iran and Syria, which have played major roles in Lebanon and will do so in the future in Iraq. Both Lebanon and Iraq were largely secular Arab societies that are in the process of being consumed by religious extremism. I see the Yugoslavia analogy, but I think the Lebanon one is better. Not that it matters very much. Either analogy is dreadful and ominous.

Comparing Lebanon and Iraq is the best possible comparison because the two of them actually share some of the same problems. Both the Mahdi Army and Hezbollah get support and equipment from Khameini and the Revolutionary Guard in Iran, and Iran is trying to create puppet states is both. It's not just a comparison; it's a direct connection.

[BurgundyNGold]

Comparing Lebanon and Iraq is the best possible comparison because the two of them actually share some of the same problems. Both the Mahdi Army and Hezbollah get support and equipment from Khameini and the Revolutionary Guard in Iran, and Iran is trying to create puppet states is both. It's not just a comparison; it's a direct connection.
Yeah, but not so much for the US military. We haven't invaded Lebanon (yet).