Gregg Williams Has Never Nauseated Me More.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

I've read quite a few comments that have tried to explain away New York's Little Comeback That Could by putting the blame entirely on the offense. Obviously, we reached a level of ineptitude at matriculating the ball down the field that's rarely seen in high school football, but by the time we hit that wall, we already had a 14-point lead. The offense failed on many levels - not just playcalling, but at throwing, at catching, at blocking, at breaking tackles, even at simply handing the ball off. It was an execution failure the likes of which hasn't been seen since Dr. Evil tried to kill Mustafa. The complete inability of our offensive unit to do anything right - and, to be honest, the lack of much of an expectation for them to do so, considering the fact that our quarterback was making his tenth start and our offensive line was employing its third new starter since last year - causes me to pause when thinking about criticizing Gibbs and Saunders.

But. But. But. The defensive calls that Gregg Williams made in the second half were the most inane, imbecilic, pathetic, mind-bogglingly awful decisions that I have seen anyone in a Redskins headset make in a long, long time. Maybe ever.

Before you get started with "They were tired! They were tired! The offense kept them on the field," allow me to provide you with this handy-dandy little link. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29240&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2007&week=REG3) It's the play-by-play chart of the game. Notice, for example, that the Giants' first touchdown comes right after halftime, when the defense has had plenty of time to rest. Notice that their second touchdown comes on only the third drive of the second half, and that the quarter ends right in the middle of that drive - another convenient five-minute break, after which the defensive unit ran out full of water and electrolytes and crapped the bed in a rejuvenated, well-rested manner. But most importantly, look carefully at each drive. Very carefully. What you'll see, over and over again, is that the Giants were faced with third-and-long situations on every drive. The hallmark of a tired defense is not forcing third downs. The hallmark of a tired defense is getting pushed around, and eventually straight-up gashed, on first and second downs. Tired defenses do not force third and six, then third and eight, then third and five, then third and eleven, then third and seven, and so on. They just don't. Unless, of course, you want to argue that the defense was only tired when the Dial-A-Down displayed a bright orange 3.

No, the defense's quadriplegic-like inability to get New York off the field had nothing to do with fatigue. And unlike the offense's woes, it had nothing to do with inexperience, or injuries, or a lack of basic execution (except for the Powderpuff Performance on Burress' go-ahead touchdown). The defense's failure - the reason our lead disappeared, the reason our offense only got two chances to re-enact the Special Olympics with the ball in the entire third quarter - rests solely and squarely on the shoulders of Gregg Williams.

If Gregg is really as smart as he wants the world to think he is, if he really is the defensive mastermind that wants to take over the Skins' head coaching job when Gibbs hangs it up, then he had better set the Cover 2 section of his playbook on fire and never, ever use it again. Watching Eli pick apart our defense as we ran the same soft zone schemes in the same exact situations again and again and again was like watching one of those kids who's figured out a glitch in Madden that allows him to simply run one play all game and get a first down every time. It was beyond frustrating. It was excruciating.

The worst part of all of it was that Gregg spent four years building the defense, claiming the whole time that he was going to run something completely different. Where the hell did the Gregg of 04/05 go? The one whose blitzing schemes were phenomenally effective? The one who specifically explained that the reason he didn't want a sack-happy D-line was because he brought the heat from other positions? The one who called double corner blitzes and massive overloads and would stack nine defenders on the line and dare the offense to guess which ones were coming? Wasn't that the reason we picked up so many DBs this offseason? Wasn't that the reason he said he wanted a back seven that could cover better? Wasn't that the reason we didn't go after a pass rusher? Wasn't that the god****ed point?!

This is it, Gregg. This is where you need to snap. You have a bye week to remember the things that you used to do, the things that put your defense in the top ten two years in a row, the things that won football games. You have a bye week to take some ginseng and remember that corners can press and play man-to-man, just like they did one week ago in Philly. You have a bye week to remember that there are no rules preventing you from rushing five, six, or even seven guys at the opposing quarterback. You have a bye week to fix all this. Because if after this bye week, you come out and run more soft zones, more four-man rushes, more standard 4-3 sets that don't even attempt to fake a blitz - well, what I think won't matter. You'll be out of a job, wondering how in God's name you convinced yourself that this defense was built to play Tampa's game.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I've read quite a few comments that have tried to explain away New York's Little Comeback That Could by putting the blame entirely on the offense. Obviously, we reached a level of ineptitude at matriculating the ball down the field that's rarely seen in high school football, but by the time we hit that wall, we already had a 14-point lead. The offense failed on many levels - not just playcalling, but at throwing, at catching, at blocking, at breaking tackles, even at simply handing the ball off. It was an execution failure the likes of which hasn't been seen since Dr. Evil tried to kill Mustafa. The complete inability of our offensive unit to do anything right - and, to be honest, the lack of much of an expectation for them to do so, considering the fact that our quarterback was making his tenth start and our offensive line was employing its third new starter since last year - causes me to pause when thinking about criticizing Gibbs and Saunders.

But. But. But. The defensive calls that Gregg Williams made in the second half were the most inane, imbecilic, pathetic, mind-bogglingly awful decisions that I have seen anyone in a Redskins headset make in a long, long time. Maybe ever.

Before you get started with "They were tired! They were tired! The offense kept them on the field," allow me to provide you with this handy-dandy little link. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29240&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2007&week=REG3) It's the play-by-play chart of the game. Notice, for example, that the Giants' first touchdown comes right after halftime, when the defense has had plenty of time to rest. Notice that their second touchdown comes on only the third drive of the second half, and that the quarter ends right in the middle of that drive - another convenient five-minute break, after which the defensive unit ran out full of water and electrolytes and crapped the bed in a rejuvenated, well-rested manner. But most importantly, look carefully at each drive. Very carefully. What you'll see, over and over again, is that the Giants were faced with third-and-long situations on every drive. The hallmark of a tired defense is not forcing third downs. The hallmark of a tired defense is getting pushed around, and eventually straight-up gashed, on first and second downs. Tired defenses do not force third and six, then third and eight, then third and five, then third and eleven, then third and seven, and so on. They just don't. Unless, of course, you want to argue that the defense was only tired when the Dial-A-Down displayed a bright orange 3.

No, the defense's quadriplegic-like inability to get New York off the field had nothing to do with fatigue. And unlike the offense's woes, it had nothing to do with inexperience, or injuries, or a lack of basic execution (except for the Powderpuff Performance on Burress' go-ahead touchdown). The defense's failure - the reason our lead disappeared, the reason our offense only got two chances to re-enact the Special Olympics with the ball in the entire third quarter - rests solely and squarely on the shoulders of Gregg Williams.

If Gregg is really as smart as he wants the world to think he is, if he really is the defensive mastermind that wants to take over the Skins' head coaching job when Gibbs hangs it up, then he had better set the Cover 2 section of his playbook on fire and never, ever use it again. Watching Eli pick apart our defense as we ran the same soft zone schemes in the same exact situations again and again and again was like watching one of those kids who's figured out a glitch in Madden that allows him to simply run one play all game and get a first down every time. It was beyond frustrating. It was excruciating.

The worst part of all of it was that Gregg spent four years building the defense, claiming the whole time that he was going to run something completely different. Where the hell did the Gregg of 04/05 go? The one whose blitzing schemes were phenomenally effective? The one who specifically explained that the reason he didn't want a sack-happy D-line was because he brought the heat from other positions? The one who called double corner blitzes and massive overloads and would stack nine defenders on the line and dare the offense to guess which ones were coming? Wasn't that the reason we picked up so many DBs this offseason? Wasn't that the reason he said he wanted a back seven that could cover better? Wasn't that the reason we didn't go after a pass rusher? Wasn't that the god****ed point?!

This is it, Gregg. This is where you need to snap. You have a bye week to remember the things that you used to do, the things that put your defense in the top ten two years in a row, the things that won football games. You have a bye week to take some ginseng and remember that corners can press and play man-to-man, just like they did one week ago in Philly. You have a bye week to remember that there are no rules preventing you from rushing five, six, or even seven guys at the opposing quarterback. You have a bye week to fix all this. Because if after this bye week, you come out and run more soft zones, more four-man rushes, more standard 4-3 sets that don't even attempt to fake a blitz - well, what I think won't matter. You'll be out of a job, wondering how in God's name you convinced yourself that this defense was built to play Tampa's game.

Thank you. EXCELLENT post. Unlike some people, you obviously watched the game carefully.

[Skinz4lyfe]

Good post and I agree with you on most of what you say. Playing a cover 2 or soft zone consistently on third down, knowing you only have one decent pass rusher on your line makes it pretty easy for the offense to convert. Also it was pretty evident the Eli was calling our blitzes out w/consistency. How about disguising a blitz every now and then or waiting until the last possible moment to send your guys? Plus against a team with a TE of Shockey's skills, is cover 2 the right defense? That being said just imagine if we don't get 3 turnovers. What would our offense really had done? We had some good returns by the special teams that gave the offense good field position that was squandered. The offense didn't take advantage of that like they should have. IMO both offense and defense share blame for this loss.

[flave1969]

Joe as ever you are spot on.

Remember the Corner Blitz New York ran so perfectly, we used to run that play. Shawn Springs had six sacks using that very play.

We as a D got New York in 3rd and Long 7 times in the second half, that is good D. The zone we played on third down was dreadful and predictable.

I really think arrogance pervades our defensive coaching staff. They should watch some film and learn something from doing so.

[Carmelo]

I've read quite a few comments that have tried to explain away New York's Little Comeback That Could by putting the blame entirely on the offense. Obviously, we reached a level of ineptitude at matriculating the ball down the field that's rarely seen in high school football, but by the time we hit that wall, we already had a 14-point lead. The offense failed on many levels - not just playcalling, but at throwing, at catching, at blocking, at breaking tackles, even at simply handing the ball off. It was an execution failure the likes of which hasn't been seen since Dr. Evil tried to kill Mustafa. The complete inability of our offensive unit to do anything right - and, to be honest, the lack of much of an expectation for them to do so, considering the fact that our quarterback was making his tenth start and our offensive line was employing its third new starter since last year - causes me to pause when thinking about criticizing Gibbs and Saunders.

But. But. But. The defensive calls that Gregg Williams made in the second half were the most inane, imbecilic, pathetic, mind-bogglingly awful decisions that I have seen anyone in a Redskins headset make in a long, long time. Maybe ever.

Before you get started with "They were tired! They were tired! The offense kept them on the field," allow me to provide you with this handy-dandy little link. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29240&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2007&week=REG3) It's the play-by-play chart of the game. Notice, for example, that the Giants' first touchdown comes right after halftime, when the defense has had plenty of time to rest. Notice that their second touchdown comes on only the third drive of the second half, and that the quarter ends right in the middle of that drive - another convenient five-minute break, after which the defensive unit ran out full of water and electrolytes and crapped the bed in a rejuvenated, well-rested manner. But most importantly, look carefully at each drive. Very carefully. What you'll see, over and over again, is that the Giants were faced with third-and-long situations on every drive. The hallmark of a tired defense is not forcing third downs. The hallmark of a tired defense is getting pushed around, and eventually straight-up gashed, on first and second downs. Tired defenses do not force third and six, then third and eight, then third and five, then third and eleven, then third and seven, and so on. They just don't. Unless, of course, you want to argue that the defense was only tired when the Dial-A-Down displayed a bright orange 3.

No, the defense's quadriplegic-like inability to get New York off the field had nothing to do with fatigue. And unlike the offense's woes, it had nothing to do with inexperience, or injuries, or a lack of basic execution (except for the Powderpuff Performance on Burress' go-ahead touchdown). The defense's failure - the reason our lead disappeared, the reason our offense only got two chances to re-enact the Special Olympics with the ball in the entire third quarter - rests solely and squarely on the shoulders of Gregg Williams.

If Gregg is really as smart as he wants the world to think he is, if he really is the defensive mastermind that wants to take over the Skins' head coaching job when Gibbs hangs it up, then he had better set the Cover 2 section of his playbook on fire and never, ever use it again. Watching Eli pick apart our defense as we ran the same soft zone schemes in the same exact situations again and again and again was like watching one of those kids who's figured out a glitch in Madden that allows him to simply run one play all game and get a first down every time. It was beyond frustrating. It was excruciating.

The worst part of all of it was that Gregg spent four years building the defense, claiming the whole time that he was going to run something completely different. Where the hell did the Gregg of 04/05 go? The one whose blitzing schemes were phenomenally effective? The one who specifically explained that the reason he didn't want a sack-happy D-line was because he brought the heat from other positions? The one who called double corner blitzes and massive overloads and would stack nine defenders on the line and dare the offense to guess which ones were coming? Wasn't that the reason we picked up so many DBs this offseason? Wasn't that the reason he said he wanted a back seven that could cover better? Wasn't that the reason we didn't go after a pass rusher? Wasn't that the god****ed point?!

This is it, Gregg. This is where you need to snap. You have a bye week to remember the things that you used to do, the things that put your defense in the top ten two years in a row, the things that won football games. You have a bye week to take some ginseng and remember that corners can press and play man-to-man, just like they did one week ago in Philly. You have a bye week to remember that there are no rules preventing you from rushing five, six, or even seven guys at the opposing quarterback. You have a bye week to fix all this. Because if after this bye week, you come out and run more soft zones, more four-man rushes, more standard 4-3 sets that don't even attempt to fake a blitz - well, what I think won't matter. You'll be out of a job, wondering how in God's name you convinced yourself that this defense was built to play Tampa's game.
Great post. We cannot depend on recievers dropping balls all the time to make our D look good. The only reason Gregg played man to man against Philly is because he had no faith in their recievers. I believe he is afraid to do it again. With or without a revamped Dline, I think we have the players to do it if they are used effectively.

I think that the bad season stole GW's confidence and scared him out of his blitzes. He plays it safe at the end now, not wanting anyone to say that one of his blitzes caused us the game.

[RedskinsDave]

As usual, well done Joe. I was just commenting on the 7 straight 3rd down conversions. That is unacceptable.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Great post. We cannot depend on recievers dropping balls all the time to make our D look good. The only reason Gregg played man to man against Philly is because he had no faith in their recievers. I believe he is afraid to do it again. With or without a revamped Dline, I think we have the players to do it if they are used effectively.

I think that the bad season stole GW's confidence and scared him out of his blitzes. He plays it safe at the end now, not wanting anyone to say that one of his blitzes caused us the game.

Great point. I know we were beat deep a lot last year, but that was last year. Maybe we should just get beat deep at least once this year before we are so sure that man press won't work.

The other thing is, I saw in JLC's blog about Taylor not making many big plays this year. If we don't challenge the QB to take deeper shots rather than take advantage of our cushion, then how is Taylor going to make a play? It is useless to have a great centerfielder if you are never going to challenge the QB to throw it at him.

[Spence]

The offense and defense collaborated to destroy that game for Washington. Obviously, the defense wasn't tired at the start of the third quarter, when the Giants came out and marched down the field for a touchdown, going thru our defense like a hot knife thru soft butter.

[techskinsfan]

the fact that rodgers missed that tackle in a cover-0 set is not gonna bode well for all of us that want to see more press man and blitzing because thats exactly what u worry about when u call that play

[SkinsKY]

Joe, I'm glad you're back. Your thoughts are hit home and your writing has been missed around here.

[hockeygoalie29]

Very, very good post. I was thinking the same thing when reading that the offense did not allow the defense to rest: 'How can they provide that rest for the defense if they only have TWO drives in the first 18 minutes of the second half because the defense can't get off the field?'

The defense in the second half of this game reminded me way too much of the 2006 defensive philosophy:


Play well the entire first half and allow the offense to build up a lead


Starting in the second half:


Give up 2 yards on first down


Give up 1 yard on 2nd down to force a 3rd and 7


Give up 11 yards on 3rd down


Repeat until the opposing offense scores.

[shally]

i have been so negative in my recent posts i hate to start the day off with another one... but..

yeah, i thought that GW's schemes were doomed to failure because we are deficient at DE... the second half was a lab for that concept

as would have been the philly game had mcnabb been even somewhat accurate.. you need pressure from the front 4.. it is as simple as that..

[PennSkinsFan]

Personally, i think Gregg Williams best days are behind him. The NFL has adapted to certain styles of defense that were run 7 to 10 years ago, and GW has been unable tomake the adjustments. His cover 2 and prevwent packages are killing this team. It happened this week, and if it was not Laron Landry knocking the ball out of the hands of Curtis two weeks ago, we would be sitting at 1-2 because of the prevent crap. You play aggressive defense and it gives you the lead and you dominate, then dammit, keep playing it!

[akhhorus]

I've read quite a few comments that have tried to explain away New York's Little Comeback That Could by putting the blame entirely on the offense. Obviously, we reached a level of ineptitude at matriculating the ball down the field that's rarely seen in high school football, but by the time we hit that wall, we already had a 14-point lead. The offense failed on many levels - not just playcalling, but at throwing, at catching, at blocking, at breaking tackles, even at simply handing the ball off. It was an execution failure the likes of which hasn't been seen since Dr. Evil tried to kill Mustafa. The complete inability of our offensive unit to do anything right - and, to be honest, the lack of much of an expectation for them to do so, considering the fact that our quarterback was making his tenth start and our offensive line was employing its third new starter since last year - causes me to pause when thinking about criticizing Gibbs and Saunders.

But. But. But. The defensive calls that Gregg Williams made in the second half were the most inane, imbecilic, pathetic, mind-bogglingly awful decisions that I have seen anyone in a Redskins headset make in a long, long time. Maybe ever.

Before you get started with "They were tired! They were tired! The offense kept them on the field," allow me to provide you with this handy-dandy little link. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29240&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2007&week=REG3) It's the play-by-play chart of the game. Notice, for example, that the Giants' first touchdown comes right after halftime, when the defense has had plenty of time to rest. Notice that their second touchdown comes on only the third drive of the second half, and that the quarter ends right in the middle of that drive - another convenient five-minute break, after which the defensive unit ran out full of water and electrolytes and crapped the bed in a rejuvenated, well-rested manner. But most importantly, look carefully at each drive. Very carefully. What you'll see, over and over again, is that the Giants were faced with third-and-long situations on every drive. The hallmark of a tired defense is not forcing third downs. The hallmark of a tired defense is getting pushed around, and eventually straight-up gashed, on first and second downs. Tired defenses do not force third and six, then third and eight, then third and five, then third and eleven, then third and seven, and so on. They just don't. Unless, of course, you want to argue that the defense was only tired when the Dial-A-Down displayed a bright orange 3.

No, the defense's quadriplegic-like inability to get New York off the field had nothing to do with fatigue. And unlike the offense's woes, it had nothing to do with inexperience, or injuries, or a lack of basic execution (except for the Powderpuff Performance on Burress' go-ahead touchdown). The defense's failure - the reason our lead disappeared, the reason our offense only got two chances to re-enact the Special Olympics with the ball in the entire third quarter - rests solely and squarely on the shoulders of Gregg Williams.

If Gregg is really as smart as he wants the world to think he is, if he really is the defensive mastermind that wants to take over the Skins' head coaching job when Gibbs hangs it up, then he had better set the Cover 2 section of his playbook on fire and never, ever use it again. Watching Eli pick apart our defense as we ran the same soft zone schemes in the same exact situations again and again and again was like watching one of those kids who's figured out a glitch in Madden that allows him to simply run one play all game and get a first down every time. It was beyond frustrating. It was excruciating.

The worst part of all of it was that Gregg spent four years building the defense, claiming the whole time that he was going to run something completely different. Where the hell did the Gregg of 04/05 go? The one whose blitzing schemes were phenomenally effective? The one who specifically explained that the reason he didn't want a sack-happy D-line was because he brought the heat from other positions? The one who called double corner blitzes and massive overloads and would stack nine defenders on the line and dare the offense to guess which ones were coming? Wasn't that the reason we picked up so many DBs this offseason? Wasn't that the reason he said he wanted a back seven that could cover better? Wasn't that the reason we didn't go after a pass rusher? Wasn't that the god****ed point?!

This is it, Gregg. This is where you need to snap. You have a bye week to remember the things that you used to do, the things that put your defense in the top ten two years in a row, the things that won football games. You have a bye week to take some ginseng and remember that corners can press and play man-to-man, just like they did one week ago in Philly. You have a bye week to remember that there are no rules preventing you from rushing five, six, or even seven guys at the opposing quarterback. You have a bye week to fix all this. Because if after this bye week, you come out and run more soft zones, more four-man rushes, more standard 4-3 sets that don't even attempt to fake a blitz - well, what I think won't matter. You'll be out of a job, wondering how in God's name you convinced yourself that this defense was built to play Tampa's game.

Joe-great post. Myself and a bunch of others have been screaming this for a long time, I know I've brought it up in every one of my columns. Unfortunately, its just lost on some people who think that since Williams is in NFL and we're not, that we're wrong. Williams needs to go. Simple as that. Blache runs a similar defense, but is more aggressive.

[JsMaViSd]

great post, BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ

[shally]

the fact that rodgers missed that tackle in a cover-0 set is not gonna bode well for all of us that want to see more press man and blitzing because thats exactly what u worry about when u call that play


rogers is sually a very reliable tackler. that is one of his strengths.. sometimes a guy just makes a great play. burress is a very strong man and it will not be the last time he does that to a db.. most of the time ragers makes that tackle

when you go after the qb, you better get there because your defense is exposed.

and to keep beating the same drum, that is why you need pass rush from the d line...

[shally]

I've read quite a few comments that have tried to explain away New York's Little Comeback That Could by putting the blame entirely on the offense. Obviously, we reached a level of ineptitude at matriculating the ball down the field that's rarely seen in high school football, but by the time we hit that wall, we already had a 14-point lead. The offense failed on many levels - not just playcalling, but at throwing, at catching, at blocking, at breaking tackles, even at simply handing the ball off. It was an execution failure the likes of which hasn't been seen since Dr. Evil tried to kill Mustafa. The complete inability of our offensive unit to do anything right - and, to be honest, the lack of much of an expectation for them to do so, considering the fact that our quarterback was making his tenth start and our offensive line was employing its third new starter since last year - causes me to pause when thinking about criticizing Gibbs and Saunders.

But. But. But. The defensive calls that Gregg Williams made in the second half were the most inane, imbecilic, pathetic, mind-bogglingly awful decisions that I have seen anyone in a Redskins headset make in a long, long time. Maybe ever.

Before you get started with "They were tired! They were tired! The offense kept them on the field," allow me to provide you with this handy-dandy little link. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29240&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2007&week=REG3) It's the play-by-play chart of the game. Notice, for example, that the Giants' first touchdown comes right after halftime, when the defense has had plenty of time to rest. Notice that their second touchdown comes on only the third drive of the second half, and that the quarter ends right in the middle of that drive - another convenient five-minute break, after which the defensive unit ran out full of water and electrolytes and crapped the bed in a rejuvenated, well-rested manner. But most importantly, look carefully at each drive. Very carefully. What you'll see, over and over again, is that the Giants were faced with third-and-long situations on every drive. The hallmark of a tired defense is not forcing third downs. The hallmark of a tired defense is getting pushed around, and eventually straight-up gashed, on first and second downs. Tired defenses do not force third and six, then third and eight, then third and five, then third and eleven, then third and seven, and so on. They just don't. Unless, of course, you want to argue that the defense was only tired when the Dial-A-Down displayed a bright orange 3.

No, the defense's quadriplegic-like inability to get New York off the field had nothing to do with fatigue. And unlike the offense's woes, it had nothing to do with inexperience, or injuries, or a lack of basic execution (except for the Powderpuff Performance on Burress' go-ahead touchdown). The defense's failure - the reason our lead disappeared, the reason our offense only got two chances to re-enact the Special Olympics with the ball in the entire third quarter - rests solely and squarely on the shoulders of Gregg Williams.

If Gregg is really as smart as he wants the world to think he is, if he really is the defensive mastermind that wants to take over the Skins' head coaching job when Gibbs hangs it up, then he had better set the Cover 2 section of his playbook on fire and never, ever use it again. Watching Eli pick apart our defense as we ran the same soft zone schemes in the same exact situations again and again and again was like watching one of those kids who's figured out a glitch in Madden that allows him to simply run one play all game and get a first down every time. It was beyond frustrating. It was excruciating.

The worst part of all of it was that Gregg spent four years building the defense, claiming the whole time that he was going to run something completely different. Where the hell did the Gregg of 04/05 go? The one whose blitzing schemes were phenomenally effective? The one who specifically explained that the reason he didn't want a sack-happy D-line was because he brought the heat from other positions? The one who called double corner blitzes and massive overloads and would stack nine defenders on the line and dare the offense to guess which ones were coming? Wasn't that the reason we picked up so many DBs this offseason? Wasn't that the reason he said he wanted a back seven that could cover better? Wasn't that the reason we didn't go after a pass rusher? Wasn't that the god****ed point?!

This is it, Gregg. This is where you need to snap. You have a bye week to remember the things that you used to do, the things that put your defense in the top ten two years in a row, the things that won football games. You have a bye week to take some ginseng and remember that corners can press and play man-to-man, just like they did one week ago in Philly. You have a bye week to remember that there are no rules preventing you from rushing five, six, or even seven guys at the opposing quarterback. You have a bye week to fix all this. Because if after this bye week, you come out and run more soft zones, more four-man rushes, more standard 4-3 sets that don't even attempt to fake a blitz - well, what I think won't matter. You'll be out of a job, wondering how in God's name you convinced yourself that this defense was built to play Tampa's game.

i read this post again.. and then re read once more.. every time i read it, it makes more sense.. one of the most eloquent descriptions of the problem that hamstrings us the most.

i am not going to even start on the lack of a pass rush, but as you say, GW now has what he wants (at least until the inevitable injuries start to happen, or is smoot's hammy the reason for the giant loss, GW?)
so where's the beef ??

the basic problem is that gibbs is an offensive coach and has always trusted his defensive exec officer. pettibone was a genius as making adjustments over halftime. GW ?? meh ... not his strength to change on the fly.
this year, we simply do not have another option than GW. nobody is going to replace him. nobody is going to over rule him. this is the year he is auditioning for his final shot as a head coach somewhere. the way things fell apart against the giants about the only good thing you can say is that it sure doesnt look like it will be for the redskins...

again, thanks for one of the most thought provoking, well written posts in a long time

[JsMaViSd]

i read this post again.. and then re read once more.. every time i read it, it makes more sense.. one of the most eloquent descriptions of the problem that hamstrings us the most.

i am not going to even start on the lack of a pass rush, but as you say, GW now has what he wants (at least until the inevitable injuries start to happen, or is smoot's hammy the reason for the giant loss, GW?)
so where's the beef ??

the basic problem is that gibbs is an offensive coach and has always trusted his defensive exec officer. pettibone was a genius as making adjustments over halftime. GW ?? meh ... not his strength to change on the fly.
this year, we simply do not have another option than GW. nobody is going to replace him. nobody is going to over rule him. this is the year he is auditioning for his final shot as a head coach somewhere. the way things fell apart against the giants about the only good thing you can say is that it sure doesnt look like it will be for the redskins...

again, thanks for one of the most thought provoking, well written posts in a long time

x2

[danny's stogie]

To be fair blame needs to be placed all around. The offense only put up 17 points against a team that had given up 80 points in 2 games. If it weren't for a forced fumble that gave the Skins the ball in the red zone they might have only scored 10. They didn't get a first down in the second half until there were just 4:30 left in the entire game. For all of GW's second half silliness (great first half aside), the offense did need to do something in the second half. You can't expect any defense, no matter how good, to hold another team down for 30 minutes when the other team has the ball for about 2/3s of the time. Let's also not forget that the Giants do actually have a talented offense that has shown an ability to move the ball.

I know how fashionable it is to bash GW, I agree with the need to limit the use of cover-2, but I won't join in the party. Aside from the second half the defense has been stellar this season.

[CNYSkinFan]

To be fair blame needs to be placed all around. The offense only put up 17 points against a team that had given up 80 points in 2 games. If it weren't for a forced fumble that gave the Skins the ball in the red zone they might have only scored 10. They didn't get a first down in the second half until there were just 4:30 left in the entire game. For all of GW's second half silliness (great first half aside), the offense did need to do something in the second half. You can't expect any defense, no matter how good, to hold another team down for 30 minutes when the other team has the ball for about 2/3s of the time. Let's also not forget that the Giants do actually have a talented offense that has shown an ability to move the ball.

I know how fashionable it is to bash GW, I agree with the need to limit the use of cover-2, but I won't join in the party. Aside from the second half the defense has been stellar this season.
I don't know about stellar. It has been adequate.

However against Miami, espescially in the 2nd half, there were alot of drops by Miami receivers on makeable third down completions. Those catches are made and the game is different, perhaps the redskins don't win.

Same against Philadelphia, and if McNabb connected on that goalline pass to Curtis to the front corner of the endzone that game could have been different as well.

And in the first half of the Giants game Burress had the dropsies and so the defense looked great. Once they made the adjustments at halftime, Williams cover-2 tendencies were exposed and he never made the adjustments.

The offense is also at fault, espescially clock management and player substitution, however the defense has progressively gotten worse each year. We all hoped it would get better this year and it lookd good, but it could be a mirage. There were ALOT of mistakes made by Miami and Philly and I can't give big credit to GW just yet for turning it around either.

[danny's stogie]

I don't know about stellar. It has been adequate.

However against Miami, espescially in the 2nd half, there were alot of drops by Miami receivers on makeable third down completions. Those catches are made and the game is different, perhaps the redskins don't win.

Same against Philadelphia, and if McNabb connected on that goalline pass to Curtis to the front corner of the endzone that game could have been different as well.

And in the first half of the Giants game Burress had the dropsies and so the defense looked great. Once they made the adjustments at halftime, Williams cover-2 tendencies were exposed and he never made the adjustments.

The offense is also at fault, espescially clock management and player substitution, however the defense has progressively gotten worse each year. We all hoped it would get better this year and it lookd good, but it could be a mirage. There were ALOT of mistakes made by Miami and Philly and I can't give big credit to GW just yet for turning it around either.

Every team in the league drops passes, try watching other games for perspective. To count them as negatives against the defense is absurd, frankly.

[colkurtz]

Both the Eagles and first half Giants had a lot of dropped passes by their WR. Would have been different outcomes for us.

GW has had the lion's share of the draft picks and we still have no pass rush. The lack of a pass rush is our Achilles Heal and teams with good-to-great QBs are going to stick that knife right into that spot. We have a whole season to go, but this defense has been exposed and everyone is going to be watching this weeks film on how to shred us unless GW falls out of love with the Cover 2.

[Hr fan]

Joe-great post. Myself and a bunch of others have been screaming this for a long time, I know I've brought it up in every one of my columns. Unfortunately, its just lost on some people who think that since Williams is in NFL and we're not, that we're wrong. Williams needs to go. Simple as that. Blache runs a similar defense, but is more aggressive.

First, great post Joe. Proves our feelings have a solid base.

I had a horrible thought. Until last year GW has ALWAYS used an attacking, blitz oriented scheme. Suddenly we are in a let-the-game-come-to-us mode, afraid of the big play. THIS IS NOT A GW TRAIT, IT IS A JG TRAIT! As JG involves himself more with the HC role we become more conservative on both sides of the ball. Coincidence?

[CNYSkinFan]

Every team in the league drops passes, try watching other games for perspective. To count them as negatives against the defense is absurd, frankly.
to disregard the fact that the other team was failing to execute and rewarding GW's defensive schemes for that failure is like Smoot doing his victory dance after a receiver he left wide open drops a pass......utterly ridiculous.

[danny's stogie]

to disregard the fact that the other team was failing to execute and rewarding GW's defensive schemes for that failure is like Smoot doing his victory dance after a receiver he left wide open drops a pass......utterly ridiculous.

Maybe if Moss and Portis caught balls thrown to them we wouldn't be having this discussion. :rolleyes: Sorry man, but every team, even the Colts have miscues, dropped passes, and poorly thrown balls. To cite them purely to excoriate the defense is....utterly ridiculous.

[CNYSkinFan]

Maybe if Moss and Portis caught balls thrown to them we wouldn't be having this discussion. :rolleyes: Sorry man, but every team, even the Colts have miscues, dropped passes, and poorly thrown balls. To cite them purely to excoriate the defense is....utterly ridiculous.
DS the National media was citing it too....there were an extraordinary amount of drops against Miami, particularly on third down. 5 iun the second half. these were wide open receivers in a very very close game.

All I am saying is GW's defense has not looked incredible so far this year. They have looked ordinary and have gotten lucky, until the second half of the giants game. That is still better then last year, I will grant you that. But I am not ready to give the egomaniac back his title of genius just yet, espescially after a major step back.

[Keino]

Maybe if Moss and Portis caught balls thrown to them we wouldn't be having this discussion. :rolleyes: Sorry man, but every team, even the Colts have miscues, dropped passes, and poorly thrown balls. To cite them purely to excoriate the defense is....utterly ridiculous.

If you think the Defense has been stellar, then I have to ask, have you been actually watching the games?

Sure, every team has miscues, but to count on them as a part of your defensive scheme is moronic wouldn't you say?

[Spence]

The defense hasn't been stellar, but it kept the Eagles out of the end zone. That's the same Eagles offense that scored 8 touchdowns against the Lions. Sure, the Lions don't have a good defense, but clearly the Redskins did some things right. The defense was looking pretty good for 2.5 games. I think they'd gone 8 quarters without yielding a touchdown before the wheels came off to start the 3rd quarter.

The Giants figured out how to attack and destroy Williams' defense. Good for them. They reacted and we didn't. Let's see what Williams has got up his sleeve for the Lions. Hopefully, he'll take some chances and bring a few blitzes.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

The defense hasn't been stellar, but it kept the Eagles out of the end zone. That's the same Eagles offense that scored 8 touchdowns against the Lions. Sure, the Lions don't have a good defense, but clearly the Redskins did some things right. The defense was looking pretty good for 2.5 games. I think they'd gone 8 quarters without yielding a touchdown before the wheels came off to start the 3rd quarter.

The Giants figured out how to attack and destroy Williams' defense. Good for them. They reacted and we didn't. Let's see what Williams has got up his sleeve for the Lions. Hopefully, he'll take some chances and bring a few blitzes.
If we don't, we are in t-r-o-u-b-l-e.

[70chip-on-1]

great post, BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ

Blitz Blitz Blitz?? your kidding right? Last time I remember a Redskins blitz was when Manning dumped off to Plaxico who then scampered past Carlos Rogers for a 33 yard touchdown run. You have to GET to the QB to make a blitz feared.. we rarely get there... Opposing offensive coordinators lick their chops when they smell a redskins blitz.

[shally]

yeah, but when your front four cannot get pressure what other options do you have except to hope that your defensive backs can cover receivers all over the field for 7 seconds ?

comes home to roost again.. not enough d line pressure

[Hr fan]

yeah, but when your front four cannot get pressure what other options do you have except to hope that your defensive backs can cover receivers all over the field for 7 seconds ?

comes home to roost again.. not enough d line pressure

Don't forget that if you play back all the time the O knows what to call. In effect it is 9 against 11, and we were the 9 and tired to boot.

[danny's stogie]

DS the National media was citing it too....there were an extraordinary amount of drops against Miami, particularly on third down. 5 iun the second half. these were wide open receivers in a very very close game.

All I am saying is GW's defense has not looked incredible so far this year. They have looked ordinary and have gotten lucky, until the second half of the giants game. That is still better then last year, I will grant you that. But I am not ready to give the egomaniac back his title of genius just yet, espescially after a major step back.

The media was also praising the improvements in the defense before the game...

So basically we have to wait until some perfect offense comes to play the Skins so that we can accurately assess them...got it.

The defense hasn't been stellar, but it kept the Eagles out of the end zone. That's the same Eagles offense that scored 8 touchdowns against the Lions. Sure, the Lions don't have a good defense, but clearly the Redskins did some things right. The defense was looking pretty good for 2.5 games. I think they'd gone 8 quarters without yielding a touchdown before the wheels came off to start the 3rd quarter.

The Giants figured out how to attack and destroy Williams' defense. Good for them. They reacted and we didn't. Let's see what Williams has got up his sleeve for the Lions. Hopefully, he'll take some chances and bring a few blitzes.


Stellar certainly might be too strong a word, but one has to recognize the vast improvement over last year's defense. Great post, Spence. It's spot on.

The problem with the Skins running a cover 2 is apparent. They don't have the lineman to run it consistently if at all. They don't have pass rushing DTs and only one real pass rushing DE. They're an attacking defense and even when the game is seemingly out of reach they need to employ more 4-6 and cover 1, a Steeler's style pressure cover-3 might be better suited to their personnel during those prevent-type situations. At the very least they need to give the perception that they plan on blitzing nearly every down.

[shally]

not sure where this one goes mods, so put it in any thread you wish

jason canfora just pulled up one of the most damning stats yet.. since 2004 guess which team has lost the most games in which they were leading at half ?

you might guess it is the redskins with 11 blown leads.. worst inthe nfl.

there is no greater indictment about our inability to make adjustments at half.

gibbs 2 is a pale immitation of gibbs 1 in that regard.. and since gibbs is primarily an offensive mind, that goes straight to GW.. call him whatever adjectives you want, the man has trouble protecting a lead or staying one jump ahead of the opponents

[danny's stogie]

not sure where this one goes mods, so put it in any thread you wish

jason canfora just pulled up one of the most damning stats yet.. since 2004 guess which team has lost the most games in which they were leading at half ?

you might guess it is the redskins with 11 blown leads.. worst inthe nfl.

there is no greater indictment about our inability to make adjustments at half.

gibbs 2 is a pale immitation of gibbs 1 in that regard.. and since gibbs is primarily an offensive mind, that goes straight to GW.. call him whatever adjectives you want, the man has trouble protecting a lead or staying one jump ahead of the opponents

It takes 2 sides of the ball to win games.

[CNYSkinFan]

The media was also praising the improvements in the defense before the game...

So basically we have to wait until some perfect offense comes to play the Skins so that we can accurately assess them...got it.



DS is there any criticism of the team you can stomach. All I have said is our defense has not been stellar, which others hadve said as well> They have been adequate and lucky and an improvement over last year. I have backed up my statements with examples of why i think so.

Keep drinking the Grilliams kool aid, I have given him the right amount of praise so far...he has fielded an adequate defense and relies to much on the Cover-2 AND he has gotten lucky, espescially against Miami and Philly, where balls were dropped by the opponent at inopportune times which is not something you can credit to the massive Ego that is the defensive coordinator of the redskins.

[shally]

It takes 2 sides of the ball to win games.

no doubt it does. and no doubt the offense has put pressure on the defense by their ineptness.

but i am not going to give GW a pass over 4 years.. we do not make adjustments at halftime. that much is painfully obvious

this season is just beginning, but the stats showing the defensive free fall from year 1 to year 3 of GW's tenure is already inthe book

[CNYSkinFan]

It takes 2 sides of the ball to win games.
If I wanted insight like this I wouldn't mute john Madden when he comes on...

This is a thread on the defense and it's problems...no one will argue the offense doesnt have problems as well....

[CNYSkinFan]

not sure where this one goes mods, so put it in any thread you wish

jason canfora just pulled up one of the most damning stats yet.. since 2004 guess which team has lost the most games in which they were leading at half ?

you might guess it is the redskins with 11 blown leads.. worst inthe nfl.

there is no greater indictment about our inability to make adjustments at half.

gibbs 2 is a pale immitation of gibbs 1 in that regard.. and since gibbs is primarily an offensive mind, that goes straight to GW.. call him whatever adjectives you want, the man has trouble protecting a lead or staying one jump ahead of the opponents
Blue you and I are two minds I just posted a thread on this myself.

[Keino]

The media was also praising the improvements in the defense before the game...

So basically we have to wait until some perfect offense comes to play the Skins so that we can accurately assess them...got it.

No, just that we cannot rely on the abundance of miscues that seemed prevalent during weeks 1 and 2 that had the effect of bailing the defense out.

The defense is improved, but what we saw in the 3rd quarter of the last game was a reversion to the crap we saw last year. 7 Straight 3rd down conversions when the opposing teams don't have the miscues that Miami and Philly gifted us.

To argue that they (The Redskins Defense) have looked exceptional, Stellar or any other word that indicates better than average indicates someone looking at the boxscore and saying "The opposing team didn't score, so D must've been stellar". Again, I have to ask, have you been actually watching the games? (And Im not trying to be a prick at all, Im just wondering if you noticed how badly the D looked against Miami)

[danny's stogie]

DS is there any criticism of the team you can stomach. All I have said is our defense has not been stellar, which others hadve said as well> They have been adequate and lucky and an improvement over last year. I have backed up my statements with examples of why i think so.

Keep drinking the Grilliams kool aid, I have given him the right amount of praise so far...he has fielded an adequate defense and relies to much on the Cover-2 AND he has gotten lucky, espescially against Miami and Philly, where balls were dropped by the opponent at inopportune times which is not something you can credit to the massive Ego that is the defensive coordinator of the redskins.

So now it's a problem with me. Good one. Try reading my posts and you just might possibly notice my same critique over the use of cover-2.

[danny's stogie]

No, just that we cannot rely on the abundance of miscues that seemed prevalent during weeks 1 and 2 that had the effect of bailing the defense out.

The defense is improved, but what we saw in the 3rd quarter of the last game was a reversion to the crap we saw last year. 7 Straight 3rd down conversions when the opposing teams don't have the miscues that Miami and Philly gifted us.

To argue that they (The Redskins Defense) have looked exceptional, Stellar or any other word that indicates better than average indicates someone looking at the boxscore and saying "The opposing team didn't score, so D must've been stellar". Again, I have to ask, have you been actually watching the games? (And Im not trying to be a prick at all, Im just wondering if you noticed how badly the D looked against Miami)

They also had the best 3rd down conversion rate heading into the second half of the Giants game. They must have been doing something right up until then.

The defense had the same problems trying to hold onto a lead in the Miami game when they started using c-2 and soft zones. Other than that they played very well in many ways.

[skinfanjon]

Blitz Blitz Blitz?? your kidding right? Last time I remember a Redskins blitz was when Manning dumped off to Plaxico who then scampered past Carlos Rogers for a 33 yard touchdown run. You have to GET to the QB to make a blitz feared.. we rarely get there... Opposing offensive coordinators lick their chops when they smell a redskins blitz.

yeah, but when your front four cannot get pressure what other options do you have except to hope that your defensive backs can cover receivers all over the field for 7 seconds ?

comes home to roost again.. not enough d line pressure

These two things combined seem to be the real problem to me. We don't get enough presure with the front four and our LB blitzes have been weak...which means we sit back and play soft zone instead. Marcus isn't getting it done when he's coming, and Fletcher is a fantastic tackler and great in run support but doesn't provide much in terms of pressure. The safety blitzes are almost always given away too early or timed wayyy too late and I really don't remember very many corner blitzes if any at all. Add that all together and it leaves Rocky and Carter as the only players capable of getting pressure right now. I hate to sound like a broken record, but.......we need more pressure (to the surprise of almost no one)

[shally]

These two things combined seem to be the real problem to me. We don't get enough presure with the front four and our LB blitzes have been weak...which means we sit back and play soft zone instead. Marcus isn't getting it done when he's coming, and Fletcher is a fantastic tackler and great in run support but doesn't provide much in terms of pressure. The safety blitzes are almost always given away too early or timed wayyy too late and I really don't remember very many corner blitzes if any at all. Add that all together and it leaves Rocky and Carter as the only players capable of getting pressure right now. I hate to sound like a broken record, but.......we need more pressure (to the surprise of almost no one)

have you seen the way we blitz ? i have never seen a team tip off more blitzes obviously than we do.. might as well signal the opposing bench.

at times against NY it was laughable how easily eli got us to tip our hand

that much has to change. delay the blitz a beat. fake it coming from one way and send someone else.. i dont know what else to say except if there is anything worse than tipping off a blitz too early i dont know what it might be

[Keino]

They also had the best 3rd down conversion rate heading into the second half of the Giants game. They must have been doing something right up until then.

The defense had the same problems trying to hold onto a lead in the Miami game when they started using c-2 and soft zones. Other than that they played very well in many ways.


Quoting stats to me when I watched the games isn't answering my question. Despite their 3rd down Conversion rate (Best on both sides of the ball coming into the game), I watched this team get bailed out by the ineptitude of opponents dropping and overthrowing balls on 3rd down and you've tried to Dump on CNY for making that point in very dismissive tones, when his point is apt and correct.

Despite what stats say, this defense was not remotely close to stellar. Zero Turnovers, no pass rush and exceedingly lucky.

[danny's stogie]

Quoting stats to me when I watched the games isn't answering my question. Despite their 3rd down Conversion rate (Best on both sides of the ball coming into the game), I watched this team get bailed out by the ineptitude of opponents dropping and overthrowing balls on 3rd down and you've tried to Dump on CNY for making that point in very dismissive tones, when his point is apt and correct.

Despite what stats say, this defense was not remotely close to stellar. Zero Turnovers, no pass rush and exceedingly lucky.

They had a fumble recovery and two sacks. They lack pass rush when they rush 4 and drop into 2 deep, that's true, but they generated decent pressure on blitzes just as they did in the first half of Sunday's game and on the ST interception in the second half. See, I remember this stuff, I actually did watch the games...slightly sober too I might add.

Against Miami, they played stout defense against the run and in general except for those 2 minute type situations at the end of both halves. It's not all the ineptitude of our opponents. Miami isn't a great offense, but both Philly and the Giants can pick up yards, big time yards, very quickly. So they had a few drops, big deal, so did the Skins, so does everyone, they happen. I'm not going to completely discredit the good things the Skins have been doing on defense because of them.

[Keino]

I'm not going to completely discredit the good things the Skins have been doing on defense because of them.

And nobody else is completely discrediting them either, but lets not act like the defense performed at a level that can be considered anything above average.

[shally]

And nobody else is completely discrediting them either, but lets not act like the defense performed at a level that can be considered anything above average.

and it wont' either... unless they listen to Akh and pull the pin on a trade for A Brown..

but that is not about to happen and we all know it

[dj_stouty]

I watched this team get bailed out by the ineptitude of opponents dropping and overthrowing balls on 3rd down...


I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw this. Donovan over/underthrew a plethora of receivers in week 2. Lucky for us, he decided to connect on over 80% of his passes the following week.

[akhhorus]

and it wont' either... unless they listen to Akh and pull the pin on a trade for A Brown..

but that is not about to happen and we all know it


I've already worked something out with Brown's agent and jerry Angelo. I can't get Gibbs/Cerrato to return my calls.

[Keino]

I've already worked something out with Brown's agent and jerry Angelo. I can't get Gibbs/Cerrato to return my calls.

That's because the D line is fine.

[CNYSkinFan]

So now it's a problem with me. Good one. Try reading my posts and you just might possibly notice my same critique over the use of cover-2.
your not the problem.,...your posts are.

Read my posts. I have given credit for an upgrade at LB and S. These units seem to be playign well. I have even said we hae improved over last year.

but we are not a "Stellar" defense and never were. We *were* good against the third down, but again that was more the ineptitude of our opponents then our stout pass defense. We got lucky...we are an average D at best, and will remain so until our front 4 gets pressure on the QB on passing downs.

[akhhorus]

your not the problem.,...your posts are.

Read my posts. I have given credit for an upgrade at LB and S. These units seem to be playign well. I have even said we hae improved over last year.

but we are not a "Stellar" defense and never were. We *were* good against the third down, but again that was more the ineptitude of our opponents then our stout pass defense. We got lucky...we are an average D at best, and will remain so until our front 4 gets pressure on the QB on passing downs.

The back 7 are playing well, the problem is that Williams doesn't have the talent anywhere on the team to play the Cover-2. Landry is a waste as a C2 safety, Marcus Washington looks old period.

[Keino]

It is undisputed NFL Fact that Cover 2 Teams generate a pass rush with the front 4 and have speed at the outside backer positions.

I agree, it is absolutely nuts to try Cover 2 with the talent on our roster.

[skinfanjon]

The back 7 are playing well, the problem is that Williams doesn't have the talent anywhere on the team to play the Cover-2. Landry is a waste as a C2 safety, Marcus Washington looks old period.

I cannot wrap my head around how we can all sit here and see these things plain as day but the coaching staff is blind to them. It makes absolutely no sense.

[CNYSkinFan]

The back 7 are playing well, the problem is that Williams doesn't have the talent anywhere on the team to play the Cover-2. Landry is a waste as a C2 safety, Marcus Washington looks old period.
i can agree with that...though I do think our corners are not playing great> Smoot was horrible against Miami and injured since. Rogers was good against Miami and Philly but bad against NY. Springs was benched against Miami but I thought he had good games against Philly and NY.

[shally]

I've already worked something out with Brown's agent and jerry Angelo. I can't get Gibbs/Cerrato to return my calls.

i said that in jest, but you have been totally forthright in your assessment of the need for a d line upgrade all throughout the past offseason.. lots of names have been suggested and right now all of them would be an improvement over what we have

you need to change your sig to jeremiah (i wouldnt dare suggest cassandra..lol)

[shally]

I've already worked something out with Brown's agent and jerry Angelo. I can't get Gibbs/Cerrato to return my calls.

The back 7 are playing well, the problem is that Williams doesn't have the talent anywhere on the team to play the Cover-2. Landry is a waste as a C2 safety, Marcus Washington looks old period.

i think that marcus is playing hurt.. i cannot imagine that a dislocated elbow would feel okay this soon after injury..

once it gets better (he said he set himself back, so more than anyone he could use the bye) if he is not back to himself, i will grant you that he is losing it

[danny's stogie]

Read my posts. I have given credit for an upgrade at LB and S. These units seem to be playign well. I have even said we hae improved over last year.

but we are not a "Stellar" defense and never were. We *were* good against the third down, but again that was more the ineptitude of our opponents then our stout pass defense. We got lucky...we are an average D at best, and will remain so until our front 4 gets pressure on the QB on passing downs.

Read your posts? I only responded or care about you trying to knock the defense down a peg because of some dropped passes. Other than that, I don't even know why you posted the rest of this. It's not relevant.


your not the problem.,...your posts are.

There was no reference to my posts in your comment. Only this: "DS is there any criticism of the team you can stomach." It implies that I am incapable of criticizing the team, which is clearly untrue, and which is a criticism of me that you've fallen back on in past debates with me. It also implies that because of my problem of devotion to the team I am unable to develop rational arguments regarding them. That's something that I could easily respond to in kind regarding the Skin's defensive coordinator.

If you have a problem with my posting or me, PM please.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Danny's Stogie - without getting into an argument about what constitutes "lucky" and what doesn't when it comes to dropped passes and such, I'll just say this:

In 2004 and 2005, we never relied on drops and overthrows to stop the other team.

[akhhorus]

i said that in jest, but you have been totally forthright in your assessment of the need for a d line upgrade all throughout the past offseason.. lots of names have been suggested and right now all of them would be an improvement over what we have

you need to change your sig to jeremiah (i wouldnt dare suggest cassandra..lol)

Job.

i think that marcus is playing hurt.. i cannot imagine that a dislocated elbow would feel okay this soon after injury..

once it gets better (he said he set himself back, so more than anyone he could use the bye) if he is not back to himself, i will grant you that he is losing it

An elbow shouldn't effect his speed. He had this problem early last year also and it was a bad hip problem. I'll give it a few more games, but if there's no improvement, I'm calling for Blades over Marcus.

[danny's stogie]

Danny's Stogie - without getting into an argument about what constitutes "lucky" and what doesn't when it comes to dropped passes and such, I'll just say this:

In 2004 and 2005, we never relied on drops and overthrows to stop the other team.

I might be wrong, but I'd be surprised if those defenses didn't benefit from a few opposing offense miscues also.

[akhhorus]

I might be wrong, but I'd be surprised if those defenses didn't benefit from a few opposing offense miscues also.

Name a defense that doesn't. The Skins defense just looks soft.

[danny's stogie]

Name a defense that doesn't. The Skins defense just looks soft.

I think they look very good when they play an attacking style defense and soft when they drop into the prevent/cover-2 stuff. The defense as a whole isn't a problem, the problem is when they try to play cover-2.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

I might be wrong, but I'd be surprised if those defenses didn't benefit from a few opposing offense miscues also.

Benefit? Of course they did. Every defense benefits when the offense screws up. That's not what I'm saying. This year, I can count on one hand the number of times that our defense has actualy stopped an opposing offense. I don't mean the number of times the other team has punted - I mean the number of times the defense has actively forced its will upon its opposition, rather than that opposition stopping itself with its own miscues. It was a good plan against Miami, because their offense is so inefficient that you expect plenty of miscues. It's not a good plan against 2/3 of the league, certainly not against a passing offense like New York's. It's literally the worst plan you could have.

For two years, we didn't wait until the other team stopped itself. We did the stopping. That's the difference.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

I think they look very good when they play an attacking style defense and soft when they drop into the prevent/cover-2 stuff. The defense as a whole isn't a problem, the problem is when they try to play cover-2.

Exactly.

[firehawk157]

Okay there Akh (and this is in no way a criticism), but let's say you were given the job of the DC for DC this offseason, what would you do to fix this defense? Who would you fire/demote (coaches and players)??? What kinda scheme changes would you make??? Who would you go after (players and coaches)???

I'm just curious as to what you think will make the defense good again, not trying to criticize or anything...

[CNYSkinFan]

Read your posts? I only responded or care about you trying to knock the defense down a peg because of some dropped passes. Other than that, I don't even know why you posted the rest of this. It's not relevant.

It is not relevant that the main reason we were stopping Miami and Philadelphia were miscues by the other team and not actual defensive stands by us?

I don't have to knowck the defense down a peg. The Giants, Shockey, Burress, and Eli freaking manny (a tool by your own previous posting) did.




There was no reference to my posts in your comment. Only this: "DS is there any criticism of the team you can stomach." It implies that I am incapable of criticizing the team, which is clearly untrue, and which is a criticism of me that you've fallen back on in past debates with me. It also implies that because of my problem of devotion to the team I am unable to develop rational arguments regarding them. That's something that I could easily respond to in kind regarding the Skin's defensive coordinator.

If you have a problem with my posting or me, PM please


Ok this should not have to be said but I will say it anyways. From here on forth please know that any criticism I have of you on this forum is directly related to your posts and the point of view your posts relate. I don't know you DS from a hole in the wall. It is my contention that most of the time you get the back of the organization. You defend the Redskins staff and personnell more then you criticize. I am the exact opposite. We are going to clash.

Don't take it personal.

[akhhorus]

Okay there Akh (and this is in no way a criticism), but let's say you were given the job of the DC for DC this offseason, what would you do to fix this defense? Who would you fire/demote (coaches and players)??? What kinda scheme changes would you make??? Who would you go after (players and coaches)???

I'm just curious as to what you think will make the defense good again, not trying to criticize or anything...

No, I understand your point. I would do the following:

Two tracks:
first track:
1-Take every page in the playbook that is a cover-2 and burn them
2-Get SOMETHING at LDE. Alex Brown, Darren Howard, whatever or draft a DE like Chris Long or Tyoka Jackson in round 1 or Lawrence Jackson/Chris Harrington in round 2.
3-Cut or trade Springs and Smoot
4-Go after Asaunte Samuel or Randall Gay and draft Justin King or Antonie Cason in Round 1 or Terrell Thomas or Chevis Jackson in Round 2
5-PLAY AGGRESSIVE. This defense always falls apart when they play loose.

Defense looks like this:
RDE: Carter
UT: Monty
NT: Griff
LDE: Brown/Howard/Long/Jackson/Jackson/Harrington
SLB: Washington/Blades
MLB: Fletcher
WLB: Rocky
CB: Samuel/Gay/King/Cason/Thomas/Jackson
CB: Rogers/King/Cason/Thomas/Jackson
FS: Taylor
SS: Landry

Second track:
1-Burn the entire playbook.
2-Change to a 3-4 Cover 3.
3-Draft Quentin Groves/Derrick Harvey in Round 1
4-Sign Samuel or Gay and draft a CB to replace Springs/Smoot in Round 2(see above)
5-PLAY AGGRESSIVE!

Defense looks like this:
LDE: Golston
NT: Monty
RDE: Griff
OLB: Groves/Harvey
ILB: Blades
ILB: Fletcher
OLB: Rocky
CB: Samuel/Gay/Thomas/Jackson
CB: Rogers/Samuel/Gay/Thomas/Jackson
FS: Taylor
SS: Landry

[firehawk157]

So what would happen to poor Andre Carter in track 2???

Anyways, the seeming continued ideas betwixt tracks 1 and 2 are:

Draft (or sign) a legit pass rusher (whether he is at OLB or DE depending on a switch to the 3-4)
Get rid of the cover-2
Get rid of Springs and smoot and sign and draft a CB
Play aggressive.

Seems fair enough. While I'm collecting thoughts, what about the offense? They seem to have more problems than the D.

[danny's stogie]

It is not relevant that the main reason we were stopping Miami and Philadelphia were miscues by the other team and not actual defensive stands by us?

I don't have to knowck the defense down a peg. The Giants, Shockey, Burress, and Eli freaking manny (a tool by your own previous posting) did.



The second half defense sucked and cover-2 is largely the culprit. But, for the most part, aside from the soft zone crap, the defense did what they were supposed to do and what should have been expected from them. Eli has shown an ability to put up big yardage and score big TDs. The reason he looks like a tool is because he makes big mistakes. The defense forced him into 3 turnovers, exactly what they were supposed to do. The offense, on the other hand, mustered only 17 points, 10 if you factor in that Carter's FF set them up for a TD. The Giants had given up an average of 40 points the previous 2 games. They had to perform better and they have to fix their ridiculously awful hurry up offense.

[akhhorus]

So what would happen to poor Andre Carter in track 2???

Gone.

Anyways, the seeming continued ideas betwixt tracks 1 and 2 are:

Draft (or sign) a legit pass rusher (whether he is at OLB or DE depending on a switch to the 3-4)
Get rid of the cover-2
Get rid of Springs and smoot and sign and draft a CB
Play aggressive.

Seems fair enough.

Those are the essential problems with the defense. And yet, if Williams would do what I embolded, he can tolerate all the personnel flaws with the defense. Landry is WASTED as a cover safety.

While I'm collecting thoughts, what about the offense? They seem to have more problems than the D.

If I was in charge of the offense, I would do this:
1-Dump or Bench Mike Sellers.
2-Play Heyer/Jansen at RT
3-Keep Wade/Jansen/Heyer as depth
4-Sign a TE like Eric Johnson or another pass catcher, or draft someone like Kory Sperry, Martin Rucker or Martellus Bennett.
This offense seems to do better with the 2 WR, 2 TE, 0 FB, 1 RB Ace Formation.
5-Dump Lloyd and replace him with a true Y/Flanker. Some draft ideas in round 3-4: Mario Urrutia, Marcus Monk, Greg Carr, etc
Offense looks like this:
X: S. Moss
X: ARE
TE: Cooley, Johnson/Sperry/Rucker/Bennett
LT: Samuels
LG: Kendall
C: Rabach
RG: Thomas
RT: Jansen/Heyer/Wade
QB: Campbell
RB: Portis

on 3rd downs:
X: ARE
Y: Urrutia/Monk/Carr/vet WR
Z: Moss
TE: Cooley
Then either play the other TE or Portis at RB
LT: Samuels
LG: Kendall
C: Rabach
RG: Thomas
RT: Jansen/Heyer/Wade
QB: Campbell

[Biggie]

I'm sure Randall Gay is a great player, but I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face whenever his name gets called. I'm afraid I'm going to have to give that move a thumbs down.

[akhhorus]

I'm sure Randall Gay is a great player, but I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face whenever his name gets called. I'm afraid I'm going to have to give that move a thumbs down.

Well, its him or Billy Rumphumper. Take your pick.

[shally]

No, I understand your point. I would do the following:

Two tracks:
first track:
1-Take every page in the playbook that is a cover-2 and burn them
2-Get SOMETHING at LDE. Alex Brown, Darren Howard, whatever or draft a DE like Chris Long or Tyoka Jackson in round 1 or Lawrence Jackson/Chris Harrington in round 2.
3-Cut or trade Springs and Smoot
4-Go after Asaunte Samuel or Randall Gay and draft Justin King or Antonie Cason in Round 1 or Terrell Thomas or Chevis Jackson in Round 2
5-PLAY AGGRESSIVE. This defense always falls apart when they play loose.

Defense looks like this:
RDE: Carter
UT: Monty
NT: Griff
LDE: Brown/Howard/Long/Jackson/Jackson/Harrington
SLB: Washington/Blades
MLB: Fletcher
WLB: Rocky
CB: Samuel/Gay/King/Cason/Thomas/Jackson
CB: Rogers/King/Cason/Thomas/Jackson
FS: Taylor
SS: Landry

Second track:
1-Burn the entire playbook.
2-Change to a 3-4 Cover 3.
3-Draft Quentin Groves/Derrick Harvey in Round 1
4-Sign Samuel or Gay and draft a CB to replace Springs/Smoot in Round 2(see above)
5-PLAY AGGRESSIVE!

Defense looks like this:
LDE: Golston
NT: Monty
RDE: Griff
OLB: Groves/Harvey
ILB: Blades
ILB: Fletcher
OLB: Rocky
CB: Samuel/Gay/Thomas/Jackson
CB: Rogers/Samuel/Gay/Thomas/Jackson
FS: Taylor
SS: Landry

respectfully, we would have exactly the same complaints about darren howard that we now have about daniels.. howard was once a force at DE and can still play at DT, but he has lost his ability to force the issue via the pass rush
brown or ogunleye or someone like that who has some expectation of several years of productivity would be far preferable

[akhhorus]

respectfully, we would have exactly the same complaints about darren howard that we now have about daniels.. howard was once a force at DE and can still play at DT, but he has lost his ability to force the issue via the pass rush
brown or ogunleye or someone like that who has some expectation of several years of productivity would be far preferable

Daniels is so bad that I would take Howard on a 1-2 year stint as a rookie like Jackson(s) got ready. Howard's not the same Howard who destroyed Chris Samuels once upon a time, but he's still a competent DE.

[Biggie]

Well, its him or Billy Rumphumper. Take your pick.

On second thought, let's sign both. They would totally destroy the opposing offenses' a**es...

Too far?

[firehawk157]

Well if we picked up a young DE like Brown, we could probably hold off for a few years on a first round DE and could use that pick on a CB. But I'm getting tired of picking first round for a DB though.

[akhhorus]

Well if we picked up a young DE like Brown, we could probably hold off for a few years on a first round DE and could use that pick on a CB. But I'm getting tired of picking first round for a DB though.

If they got Brown, they should go CB in round 1(King or Thomas), OL or SAM in round 2 and DE in round 3.

[firehawk157]

Is getting rid of Smoot, Springs, Lloyd and possibly carter feasible cap-wise this offseason? It seems like it would accelerate a LOT of bonuses. Throw in Washington and that's a lot of dead cap space.

[akhhorus]

Is getting rid of Smoot, Springs, Lloyd and possibly carter feasible cap-wise this offseason? It seems like it would accelerate a LOT of bonuses. Throw in Washington and that's a lot of dead cap space.

Smoot would be the hardest. Dumping Washington would actually save money. Springs is roughly a wash(maybe a million or so added). Lloyd would be about a wash after this year I believe.

[shally]

Smoot would be the hardest. Dumping Washington would actually save money. Springs is roughly a wash(maybe a million or so added). Lloyd would be about a wash after this year I believe.

lloyd would be addition via subtraction..

[esmith1790]

Dumping smoot might be a good Football move, but maybe a bad PR move. You just signed him in the off-season, What are they seeing now they didnt see then? Couldnt he have been avoided all-together and signed someone else? Makes the FO look bad. But is a solid football move. Is there a GM to pull that move though?

[akhhorus]

Dumping smoot might be a good Football move, but maybe a bad PR move. You just signed him in the off-season, What are they seeing now they didnt see then? Couldnt he have been avoided all-together and signed someone else? Makes the FO look bad. But is a solid football move. Is there a GM to pull that move though?

You're talking about a team that just did that with Arch, benched Lloyd despite his contract.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Wait, wait, explain to me again why we would even consider getting rid of Smoot. Some of your reactions are flat-out ridiculous. Is Smoot a #1 corner? No. But we don't expect him to be.

In fact, the corners get a lot more heat around here than they deserve. It seems like they're expected to be perfect. Please, please, go out and find me five teams that have a better top 3 than Springs, Rogers, and Smoot. Really. Search through the rosters and let me know.

Fact is, every corner gets burnt. I consider CB to be really, really far down on our list of problems.

[JasonCampbell]

Wait, wait, explain to me again why we would even consider getting rid of Smoot. Some of your reactions are flat-out ridiculous. Is Smoot a #1 corner? No. But we don't expect him to be.

Well, I believe that it is obvious that he is not good at all anymore after taking a sample of 4 quarters of play...:rolleyes:

[akhhorus]

Wait, wait, explain to me again why we would even consider getting rid of Smoot. Some of your reactions are flat-out ridiculous. Is Smoot a #1 corner? No. But we don't expect him to be.

In fact, the corners get a lot more heat around here than they deserve. It seems like they're expected to be perfect. Please, please, go out and find me five teams that have a better top 3 than Springs, Rogers, and Smoot. Really. Search through the rosters and let me know.

Fact is, every corner gets burnt. I consider CB to be really, really far down on our list of problems.

Pats:
Hobbs, Samuel, Gay
Broncos:
Champ, Bly, Foxsworth
Ravens:
Rolle, McAllister, Ivy
Bears:
Tillman, Vasher, Manning Jr.
Falcons:
Houston, Hall, Irons/Sanders
49ers:
Harris, Clements, Spencer
Raiders:
Asomunga, Washington, Routt
Seahawks:
Trufant, Wilson, Jennings
Chiefs:
Law, Surtain, Sapp
Panthers:
Gamble, Marshall, Lucas


I'll take their CBs over ours.

[akhhorus]

Well, I believe that it is obvious that he is not good at all anymore after taking a sample of 4 quarters of play...:rolleyes:

And the 2 years in Minnesota when he looked like crap. Miami is a terrible passing team and they had no problems passing the ball on him all day in the opener.

[Battle Cat]

Pats:
Hobbs, Samuel, Gay
Broncos:
Champ, Bly, Foxsworth
Ravens:
Rolle, McAllister, Ivy
Bears:
Tillman, Vasher, Manning Jr.
Falcons:
Houston, Hall, Irons/Sanders
49ers:
Harris, Clements, Spencer
Raiders:
Asomunga, Washington, Routt
Seahawks:
Trufant, Wilson, Jennings
Chiefs:
Law, Surtain, Sapp
Panthers:
Gamble, Marshall, Lucas


I'll take their CBs over ours.
You can't judge corners on those teams to corners on a team that until Sunday doesnt put pressure on the quarterback. It is totally unfair.

[akhhorus]

You can't judge corners on those teams to corners on a team that until Sunday doesnt put pressure on the quarterback. It is totally unfair.

The Ravens, Seahawks, Panthers, Raiders and Falcons all have the same or fewer sacks than the redskins do this year. The 49ers and Broncos have 2 more sacks each than the Skins.

[CNYSkinFan]

The second half defense sucked and cover-2 is largely the culprit. But, for the most part, aside from the soft zone crap, the defense did what they were supposed to do and what should have been expected from them. Eli has shown an ability to put up big yardage and score big TDs. The reason he looks like a tool is because he makes big mistakes. The defense forced him into 3 turnovers, exactly what they were supposed to do. The offense, on the other hand, mustered only 17 points, 10 if you factor in that Carter's FF set them up for a TD. The Giants had given up an average of 40 points the previous 2 games. They had to perform better and they have to fix their ridiculously awful hurry up offense.
you must be under some misconception I have no problems with the offense. Please read my last VQ article, I slam it even more then the defense...But this is a defense thread.


My point, and Keino's is, that we play this same piss poor cover 2 defense in Miami and Philly. The only reason it worked there is the Miami receivers dropped a ton of balls and McNabb had the accuracy of Mr Magoo.

If you are saying there is talent on the D and it is being misused...fine I agree wityh you. If you are saying that the only thing wrong with the D is the cover 2 is used too much....what is the point? Our contention is that GW uses the cover 2 almost exclusively when we are in a lead or if the game is close so since that is most of the time it has become our defacto base defense.

Saying the Defense is stellar save the cover 2 is like saying that Rosie O donnel is pretty save the weight problem, the ugly face, and annoying attitude.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Benefit? Of course they did. Every defense benefits when the offense screws up. That's not what I'm saying. This year, I can count on one hand the number of times that our defense has actualy stopped an opposing offense. I don't mean the number of times the other team has punted - I mean the number of times the defense has actively forced its will upon its opposition, rather than that opposition stopping itself with its own miscues. It was a good plan against Miami, because their offense is so inefficient that you expect plenty of miscues. It's not a good plan against 2/3 of the league, certainly not against a passing offense like New York's. It's literally the worst plan you could have.

For two years, we didn't wait until the other team stopped itself. We did the stopping. That's the difference.

That is a terrible exaggeration. If you said the you can count on one hand the number of times in the Giants game, then I am with you, but for the season, not even close.

I mean there were four times alone in the first half of the Giants.

[Battle Cat]

The Ravens, Seahawks, Panthers, Raiders and Falcons all have the same or fewer sacks than the redskins do this year. The 49ers and Broncos have 2 more sacks each than the Skins.
If we are only going on this year I think our corners have played as well as any in the NFL and is right in the mix with that list you have created. The 49ers, Broncos and Raiders are the only ones I would put above ours at this point.

[JasonCampbell]

The Ravens, Seahawks, Panthers, Raiders and Falcons all have the same or fewer sacks than the redskins do this year. The 49ers and Broncos have 2 more sacks each than the Skins.

Got stats on hurries? We can get a sack one out of five pass plays and lead the league in sacks, but if the 4 times we don't get sacks, the QB has 5 seconds to throw, we'll get shredded.

[akhhorus]

If we are only going on this year I think our corners have played as well as any in the NFL and is right in the mix with that list you have created. The 49ers, Broncos and Raiders are the only ones I would put above ours at this point.

Thats your opinion. I don't see how anyone can put them in the top half of the league based on their play.

[akhhorus]

Got stats on hurries? We can get a sack one out of five pass plays and lead the league in sacks, but if the 4 times we don't get sacks, the QB has 5 seconds to throw, we'll get shredded.

I don't know of anyone who keeps track of hurries, but Carolina has had 2 sacks all year and I'd still take their Cbs over ours any day of the week.

[Battle Cat]

Thats your opinion. I don't see how anyone can put them in the top half of the league based on their play.
In 2 1/2 games they gave up one touchdown. No quarterback has had a good game against them. Plaxico Burress and Chris Chambers, can be as good as any receiver or as bad, are the only 2 guys to have big games against this defense. I don't really consider those really big games. So they have played well. To me the Giants know something about our run defense and have gashed us everytime we have played in the last 3 years. That is what the Giants have on us if you are basing it mainly on the 2nd half of the Giants game. But yes this is my opinion just like what you said is your opinion.

[CNYSkinFan]

That is a terrible exaggeration. If you said the you can count on one hand the number of times in the Giants game, then I am with you, but for the season, not even close.

I mean there were four times alone in the first half of the Giants.
Dude read the post. He is talking about the defense causing the stop, defending the pass on third down, instead of the opposing offense miscuing like an overthrown ball or dropping easy passes.

[akhhorus]

In 2 1/2 games they gave up one touchdown. No quarterback has had a good game against them. Plaxico Burress and Chris Chambers, can be as good as any receiver or as bad, are the only 2 guys to have big games against this defense. I don't really consider those really big games. So they have played well. To me the Giants know something about our run defense and have gashed us everytime we have played in the last 3 years. That is what the Giants have on us if you ar ebasing it mainly on the 2nd half of the Giants game. But yes this is my opinion just like what you said is your opinion.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. If just ignore when they were shredded, they were great? Green is awful, yet they moved the ball well against Smoot. McNabb couldn't hit water falling out of a boat when we played them(I grant that Rogers was very good), and they all were subpar against the giants. Yet, you think they were good :rolleyes:

[Battle Cat]

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. If just ignore when they were shredded, they were great? Green is awful, yet they moved the ball well against Smoot. McNabb couldn't hit water falling out of a boat when we played them(I grant that Rogers was very good), and they all were subpar against the giants. Yet, you think they were good :rolleyes:
One receiver on a team having less than 100 yards receiving is not a bad game in my opinion. Have those other corner back tandems held all their receivers under a 100 yards. In both games that you have an issue with, since you seem to concede they played well in the Philly game, one receiver had a decent game less than 100 yards and 1 touchdown in the case of Burress. In this day and age that is not allot. R.Moss, S.Moss, ARE, Owens and Harrison can do that in a good quarter.

[JasonCampbell]

I don't know of anyone who keeps track of hurries, but Carolina has had 2 sacks all year and I'd still take their Cbs over ours any day of the week.

I'm sure Peppers and company are still getting more pressure and hurries than our front 4. I don't care if you have 4 Champ Baileys out there running around in the secondary, if any QB in this league can sit in the pocket for 5 seconds like Eli did in the second half, it won't matter.

[shally]

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. If just ignore when they were shredded, they were great? Green is awful, yet they moved the ball well against Smoot. McNabb couldn't hit water falling out of a boat when we played them(I grant that Rogers was very good), and they all were subpar against the giants. Yet, you think they were good :rolleyes:

i am not defending our corners.. but i am saying that you could put any of that group of corners that you prefer to ours behind our defensive front four and their level of play is going to plummet. we can make any qb look like an all pro by giving him 7 seconds to throw the ball. especially if we combine it with GW's cockamamie scheme of playing off 7-12 yards...
you think it was bad with eli ? just wait until kitna has the same amount of time to throw to roy williams, furrey, johnson et al...

[themightyjoegibbs]

1. No, the defense's quadriplegic-like inability to get New York off the field had nothing to do with fatigue. [/B]And unlike the offense's woes, it had nothing to do with inexperience, or injuries, or a lack of basic execution (except for the Powderpuff Performance on Burress' go-ahead touchdown). The defense's failure - the reason our lead disappeared, the reason our offense only got two chances to re-enact the Special Olympics with the ball in the entire third quarter- rests solely and squarely on the shoulders of Gregg Williams.


2.If Gregg is really as smart as he wants the world to think he is, if he really is the defensive mastermind that wants to take over the Skins' head coaching job when Gibbs hangs it up....


3.Wasn't that the reason we didn't go after a pass rusher? Wasn't that the god****ed point?!.





1.I like how you plug the handicapped and their Special Olympics. That would be a good lead in to a McDonald's commercial.


2.I think about that too. He talks a good game but it seems like he could go to Tenn. w/ Fisher. I want him to be our mastermind.

3.I can't figure it out what word is god****ed point any better than to figure out why we haven't trusted the most capable guys on our team to handle the assignments- in the secondary that is. Of all people GWilliams carries the swagger to assure all is well with his plans.

[akhhorus]

I'm sure Peppers and company are still getting more pressure and hurries than our front 4.

Feel free to show that, or its supposition.

I don't care if you have 4 Champ Baileys out there running around in the secondary, if any QB in this league can sit in the pocket for 5 seconds like Eli did in the second half, it won't matter.

I'm sorry, but thats a dodge. Pressure does help CBs play, but a bad CB is still a bad CB. The skins don't have consistently good CBs.

One receiver on a team having less than 100 yards receiving is not a bad game in my opinion.

Its a group effort in my opinion. The skins are 13th in passing yards let up per game, but they still don't have quality CBs.

Have those other corner back tandems held all their receivers under a 100 yards. In both games that you have an issue with, since you seem to concede they played well in the Philly game

No, I said Rogers played a nice game. McNabb helped them all out though by throwing where the WRs couldn't get it.

, one receiver had a decent game less than 100 yards and 1 touchdown in the case of Burress. In this day and age that is not allot. R.Moss, S.Moss, ARE, Owens and Harrison can do that in a good quarter.

Why does this sounds like post facto justification. Chambers still had 90+ yards, Avant(a nobody) had 55, Burress had 86. Seems like the Cbs are struggling somewhere.

[akhhorus]

i am not defending our corners.. but i am saying that you could put any of that group of corners that you prefer to ours behind our defensive front four and their level of play is going to plummet. we can make any qb look like an all pro by giving him 7 seconds to throw the ball. especially if we combine it with GW's cockamamie scheme of playing off 7-12 yards...
you think it was bad with eli ? just wait until kitna has the same amount of time to throw to roy williams, furrey, johnson et al...

I agree with the Zones, but its not just pressure. No team can get pressure all the time--even the Ravens, so the Cbs have to be able to stop their assignments. Detroit has terrible Cbs, but a solid pass rush and they can't stop the pass.

[esmith1790]

You're talking about a team that just did that with Arch, benched Lloyd despite his contract.


Yes you are correct, however, i was thinking along the lines how they stated they were going to be more frugal in the off-season in FA and keep their picks, really look at character more. ( correct me if im wrong but i thought they were gona try to different tactics this past off-season.)

They still have the same results with Smoot.

[MikeBass]

I agree with the Zones, but its not just pressure. No team can get pressure all the time--even the Ravens, so the Cbs have to be able to stop their assignments. Detroit has terrible Cbs, but a solid pass rush and they can't stop the pass.

What in THE heck?...I do not know how many times I said this and you have vigorously argued against it.

[akhhorus]

What in THE heck?...I do not know how many times I said this and you have vigorously argued against it.

No, you've said that there are no great Dlines(which is wrong). And I've said that the Skins have a pressure deficiency on defense and needed to address it(you disagreed with that). The skins before this season and during it so far still have major problems getting pressure and when they've played aggressive and gotten pressure, they've done better on defense(which isn't only thanks to the CBs against the pass). Its basic defense that you need to pressure the QB consistently. Its also basic defense that your CBs have to be able to cover anyways.

[Battle Cat]

Why does this sounds like post facto justification. Chambers still had 90+ yards, Avant(a nobody) had 55, Burress had 86. Seems like the Cbs are struggling somewhere.
90 +, 55, and 86 and 1 touchdown, we will just have to disagree on what struggling is. How do these compare with the other 7-8 tandems that you named better than the Skins?

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Without making an annoyingly long post to individually argue against about half the teams you listed, Akh, I think it's sufficient to say that I (obviously) disagree with you about quite a few of them. With our CBs, I think Rogers had gotten an extremely unfair rep. I also think that pretty much all of the Smoot hate comes from two things - the fact that he dropped what would have been the game-winning touchdown against Miami, and the fact that Miami picked on him for a bunch of eight-yard outs in this incredibly ironic situation: Smoot, in that game, was playing where Rogers played last year. Last year also happened to be the year that a bunch of vitriol was directed towards Rogers for his supposed personally-decided-upon big cushion. (You know, the one that everyone loves to believe Gregg Williams, in all his egomaniacical glory, tells him to stop giving, yet never benches him for it. Yeah. That sounds like Gregg.) Running what we all now know to be the same soft zone as last year, and with Smoot playing the same position Rogers did last year, people suddenly got angry with Smoot for giving the same cushion Rogers supposedly "decided" to give last year. Does anyone see where I'm going with this? Maybe, just maybe, it all comes back to Mr. "The Second G Is For Genius"?

The only defensive position we should be worrying less about than our corners is our safeties.

[akhhorus]

Without making an annoyingly long post to individually argue against about half the teams you listed, Akh, I think it's sufficient to say that I (obviously) disagree with you about quite a few of them. With our CBs, I think Rogers had gotten an extremely unfair rep. I also think that pretty much all of the Smoot hate comes from two things - the fact that he dropped what would have been the game-winning touchdown against Miami, and the fact that Miami picked on him for a bunch of eight-yard outs in this incredibly ironic situation: Smoot, in that game, was playing where Rogers played last year. Last year also happened to be the year that a bunch of vitriol was directed towards Rogers for his supposed personally-decided-upon big cushion. (You know, the one that everyone loves to believe Gregg Williams, in all his egomaniacical glory, tells him to stop giving, yet never benches him for it. Yeah. That sounds like Gregg.) Running what we all now know to be the same soft zone as last year, and with Smoot playing the same position Rogers did last year, people suddenly got angry with Smoot for giving the same cushion Rogers supposedly "decided" to give last year. Does anyone see where I'm going with this? Maybe, just maybe, it all comes back to Mr. "The Second G Is For Genius"?

The only defensive position we should be worrying less about than our corners is our safeties.

I agree 100% that Rogers gets an unfair shake here(and I've been one of his biggest defenders). But I haven't been impressed by Springs that much. He was solid against the Eagles, but dreadful against the Giants. But the point is: would you honestly not take any 5 of those CBs corps over ours?

[Keino]

I think are Corners cover well. I think the problem is when the ball is in the air. Rogers is the worst at this, Smoot, has the least amount of ability, but is probably the best at making plays on the ball in the air.

Our CBs don't attack the ball in the air.

[Battle Cat]

I want to see all of our corners together with Springs as a starter. We have not had that yet. The Miami game Springs was the Nickel and Macklin was out. Against Detroit we will get a chance to see Springs as the number 1, Rogers as the number 2, Smoot as the Nickel, and Macklin / Torrence as the 4th corner. I feel this is our best lineup. Our best positions on the Redskins IMO are 1. running back 2. safety 3. Corner. It was offensive line #1 before the injuries.

[SkinsKY]

Without making an annoyingly long post to individually argue against about half the teams you listed, Akh, I think it's sufficient to say that I (obviously) disagree with you about quite a few of them. With our CBs, I think Rogers had gotten an extremely unfair rep. I also think that pretty much all of the Smoot hate comes from two things - the fact that he dropped what would have been the game-winning touchdown against Miami, and the fact that Miami picked on him for a bunch of eight-yard outs in this incredibly ironic situation: Smoot, in that game, was playing where Rogers played last year. Last year also happened to be the year that a bunch of vitriol was directed towards Rogers for his supposed personally-decided-upon big cushion. (You know, the one that everyone loves to believe Gregg Williams, in all his egomaniacical glory, tells him to stop giving, yet never benches him for it. Yeah. That sounds like Gregg.) Running what we all now know to be the same soft zone as last year, and with Smoot playing the same position Rogers did last year, people suddenly got angry with Smoot for giving the same cushion Rogers supposedly "decided" to give last year. Does anyone see where I'm going with this? Maybe, just maybe, it all comes back to Mr. "The Second G Is For Genius"?

The only defensive position we should be worrying less about than our corners is our safeties.

I'd take a number of those CB groups listed above ours, but I will admit that Williams has not put our corners in great positions to succeed. A soft zone is going to make corners look bad. Doesn't really matter who it is. At least in the Tampa 2, you had people like Ronde disrupting WRs at the line and checking them. playing the 2 with the CBs off the line gives the deep middle and corners open, but now it leaves the flat because you've put the CBs in no man's land. In Gregggg's cover 2, the only place that is remotely closed off is the middle of the field, but everything else is exposed. Plain nonsense if you ask me.

Given that and where Smoot is playing, I agree Joe, I'm not willing to bail on these guys. I'd love to see Williams come out with some testicular fortitude and play like we have talent on this team. I think he'd be surprised at the result. In high school and college, you can sit back in zones and wait for miscues (see UK-Louisville this year), but it doesn't happen in the NFL. Even bad QBs can make the throws if you make it easy on him. And Laron is waste covering the deep half. We don't have a zone defense, and it's hard to be too critical of the DBs when they get stuck in it. I'd say it's 85% coaching.

[Skins57]

This collapase was completely and totally a team effort. Sad but true, the universe worked hard at making this happen. GW, AS, and Joe himself deserve equal parts of the blame along with the players. Completely a team effort. Seems JC and ARE were the only 2 that tried to tie this game at the end

BTW...ecellent post JoeDS.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

I agree 100% that Rogers gets an unfair shake here(and I've been one of his biggest defenders). But I haven't been impressed by Springs that much. He was solid against the Eagles, but dreadful against the Giants. But the point is: would you honestly not take any 5 of those CBs corps over ours?

Not five of them, no. I happen to think we have a damn good CB corps that's been woefully mis-used since last September. And how was Springs dreadful against the Giants? Burress had a couple big catches on him, but if that's your measuring stick, you're not gonna find a corner in the league that meets your standards. Top-tier receivers make big catches on every single DB in the NFL.

[akhhorus]

I'd take a number of those CB groups listed above ours, but I will admit that Williams has not put our corners in great positions to succeed. A soft zone is going to make corners look bad. Doesn't really matter who it is. At least in the Tampa 2, you had people like Ronde disrupting WRs at the line and checking them. playing the 2 with the CBs off the line gives the deep middle and corners open, but now it leaves the flat because you've put the CBs in no man's land. In Gregggg's cover 2, the only place that is remotely closed off is the middle of the field, but everything else is exposed. Plain nonsense if you ask me.

No Tampa-2 can work if your Dline can't pressure. Its designed to funnel all the passes in the deep middle or the short edges so that the Dline can have some extra time or force the offense to take a dump off.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

No Tampa-2 can work if your Dline can't pressure. Its designed to funnel all the passes in the deep middle or the short edges so that the Dline can have some extra time or force the offense to take a dump off.

...which is why GW's constant use of it for the past two seasons is absolutely befuddling.

[akhhorus]

Not five of them, no. I happen to think we have a damn good CB corps that's been woefully mis-used since last September. And how was Springs dreadful against the Giants? Burress had a couple big catches on him, but if that's your measuring stick, you're not gonna find a corner in the league that meets your standards. Top-tier receivers make big catches on every single DB in the NFL.

If they're playing press man for 80% of the plays, I'll take them as a top 12 CB corps, but even at their best, I wouldn't take them over 7 of the ones I listed. There's no pro bowl level Cb among our group.

[akhhorus]

...which is why GW's constant use of it for the past two seasons is absolutely befuddling.

Agreed 100,000%

[JoeDaSchmoe]

If they're playing press man for 80% of the plays, I'll take them as a top 12 CB corps, but even at their best, I wouldn't take them over 7 of the ones I listed. There's no pro bowl level Cb among our group.

Based on... your evaluation of Springs' performance in the Giants game? Last year, Springs performed astonishingly well when he came back in. This year, I'd say he's done quite well again, and can still play at a Pro Bowl level. What exactly are you looking at?

[akhhorus]

Based on... your evaluation of Springs' performance in the Giants game? Last year, Springs performed astonishingly well when he came back in. This year, I'd say he's done quite well again, and can still play at a Pro Bowl level. What exactly are you looking at?

Springs wasn't that good last year. Our pass defense was actually better without him in(previously, I ran the numbers and we gave up 10-20 less passing yards with him out of the lineup). I think he's been okay-solid in the Philly game, and struggled against Burress against NY.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Springs wasn't that good last year. Our pass defense was actually better without him in(previously, I ran the numbers and we gave up 10-20 less passing yards with him out of the lineup). I think he's been okay-solid in the Philly game, and struggled against Burress against NY.

Without digging through last year's lineups.... wasn't Springs only in for a few games? Panthers, Saints... second Giants game? Something like that? That's what I remember off the top of my head, and I remember that he was exceptional in the first two.

And, again, your definition of "struggling" seems to be the two catches he gave up to Burress, unless I'm missing something. How in the world can you consider that struggling? Two catches for Plax?

[akhhorus]

Without digging through last year's lineups.... wasn't Springs only in for a few games? Panthers, Saints... second Giants game? Something like that? That's what I remember off the top of my head, and I remember that he was exceptional in the first two.

9 games last year(I didn't count the Rams game against either side since Springs left early).

And, again, your definition of "struggling" seems to be the two catches he gave up to Burress, unless I'm missing something. How in the world can you consider that struggling? Two catches for Plax?

Springs gave up at least 2-3 3rd downs in the 2nd half and I believe he blew the long TD on Plax. Thats struggling in my book.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

9 games last year(I didn't count the Rams game against either side since Springs left early).



Springs gave up at least 2-3 3rd downs in the 2nd half and I believe he blew the long TD on Plax. Thats struggling in my book.

Hmmm, how many were pre-injury and how many post?

And Springs wasn't on Plax for the long TD. Rogers was.

[akhhorus]

Hmmm, how many were pre-injury and how many post?

Springs had 2 injuries. The groin which kept him out until basically the Titans/Indy game and then the arm injury which ended his season in St Louis. So..both lol.

And Springs wasn't on Plax for the long TD. Rogers was.

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't 100% sure. Springs still gave up too many to Burress and had a killer 3rd down Pass interference on the Giants' final TD drive.

[Slobberknocker]

Personally, i think Gregg Williams best days are behind him. The NFL has adapted to certain styles of defense that were run 7 to 10 years ago, and GW has been unable tomake the adjustments.

Why hasn't anybody adapted to Dick Labeau in Pittsburgh? He blitzes and plays as aggressively as any defensive coach in recent memory.

And nobody's caught up with him!

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Springs had 2 injuries. The groin which kept him out until basically the Titans/Indy game and then the arm injury which ended his season in St Louis. So..both lol.

Damn durability issues... yeah, I meant the first one. Anyway, what I remember of Springs last year is after he came back from the first injury and played very, very well until the second one. I don't recall any talk of him being terrible in the first part of the season, before he was injured the first time. I just really don't see what you're basing this on, other than his inability to stay on the field, which, yes, is an annoyingly large problem.

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't 100% sure. Springs still gave up too many to Burress and had a killer 3rd down Pass interference on the Giants' final TD drive.

Again... I believe it was two to Burress. You can't find a corner in the league who won't give up multiple catches to #1 receivers like Burress. Hell, we know as well as any fans in the league how badly Chad Johnson abuses Champ. We've celebrated it every time it's happened. And Champ's always there when Denver gets its annual playoff butt-whooping at the hands of Peyton Manning. That doesn't mean that Champ isn't almost universally regarded as one of the top three corners in the game, if not the flat-out best.

[redskin_rich]

Why hasn't anybody adapted to Dick Labeau in Pittsburgh? He blitzes and plays as aggressively as any defensive coach in recent memory.

And nobody's caught up with him!

Because he is real good at what he does..?

Let's remember something, GW learned under Jeff Fisher, who was a defensive coordinator under Buddy Ryan. GW had his best years while working under Fisher, who most likely had a lot of say on the defense. Other than that, GW has had 1 and 1/2 good seasons of defense here. I don't know offhand what his numbers were like in Buffalo but I do think he had better talent there on defense and I while his defense improved, the team got worse.

[MikeBass]

This collapase was completely and totally a team effort. Sad but true, the universe worked hard at making this happen. GW, AS, and Joe himself deserve equal parts of the blame along with the players. Completely a team effort. Seems JC and ARE were the only 2 that tried to tie this game at the end

BTW...ecellent post JoeDS.

This is true, Snyder pay these guys too much money and have given them too much talent for them to make bone-head calls like they have. Samuels (a lineman), ARE ( who is not a true #2 receiver) and Campbell (a relatively inexperienced QB) may be our best offensive weapons and this is not good. Bugel may be our MVP (most valuable person) thus far for what he has done in trying to keep the line together.

The defense has played alright but with the attention that this squad was given this offseason and because it was supposedly directed at the style that GW coordinates it should have played much more aggresively than it has been playing. Their play has been very dissapointing thus far, the only consistent players here have been Fletcher, McIntosh and Carter.

Gibbs is managing this team so he HAS to make due adjustments, even if it is with Saunders and/or Williams. Even with a 2-1 record we have not looked very good this season.

[shally]

Why hasn't anybody adapted to Dick Labeau in Pittsburgh? He blitzes and plays as aggressively as any defensive coach in recent memory.

And nobody's caught up with him!

we give lip service to playing aggressively.. laying your corners off 7-12 yards is not aggressive no matter what you call it

plus, one of the talking heads on nfl network said that lebeau had been very damped down by the previous head coach and would unleash things much more this year..

[akhhorus]

Damn durability issues... yeah, I meant the first one. Anyway, what I remember of Springs last year is after he came back from the first injury and played very, very well until the second one. I don't recall any talk of him being terrible in the first part of the season, before he was injured the first time. I just really don't see what you're basing this on, other than his inability to stay on the field, which, yes, is an annoyingly large problem.

I wasn't too impressed with him even when he was in. As I said earlier, the passing defense was actually better without him, than with him in 2006. Him not staying on the field and being misanthropic off of it doesn't help things.

Again... I believe it was two to Burress. You can't find a corner in the league who won't give up multiple catches to #1 receivers like Burress. Hell, we know as well as any fans in the league how badly Chad Johnson abuses Champ. We've celebrated it every time it's happened. And Champ's always there when Denver gets its annual playoff butt-whooping at the hands of Peyton Manning. That doesn't mean that Champ isn't almost universally regarded as one of the top three corners in the game, if not the flat-out best.

Burress isn't in Chad Johnson's sport, much less his league in terms of quality. Burress can be a dangerous WR, but he's one that can be frustrated and taken out of a game by a smart, physical CB-even despite his size/speed combo(honestly, then should put Macklin/Rogers on him with Taylor playing over the top). Springs can be very effective, if he's not asked to take on challenges, but to basically squat on a lesser WR imo.

[shally]

Because he is real good at what he does..?

Let's remember something, GW learned under Jeff Fisher, who was a defensive coordinator under Buddy Ryan. GW had his best years while working under Fisher, who most likely had a lot of say on the defense. Other than that, GW has had 1 and 1/2 good seasons of defense here. I don't know offhand what his numbers were like in Buffalo but I do think he had better talent there on defense and I while his defense improved, the team got worse.

i dont have the figures at hand, but i remember someone posting here that defense was not GW's problem at buffalo... i think that players like spikes, pat williams and others were on his defense

[akhhorus]

i dont have the figures at hand, but i remember someone posting here that defense was not GW's problem at buffalo... i think that players like spikes, pat williams and others were on his defense

He had some loaded teams on defense in Buffalo. Schobel, Spikes, Fletcher, Williams, Sam Adams, Denney, Kelsay, Clements, Winfield, Lawyer Milloy, etc.

[skinsfan45]

Blitz Blitz Blitz?? your kidding right? Last time I remember a Redskins blitz was when Manning dumped off to Plaxico who then scampered past Carlos Rogers for a 33 yard touchdown run. You have to GET to the QB to make a blitz feared.. we rarely get there... Opposing offensive coordinators lick their chops when they smell a redskins blitz.
and if we continue to blitz two steps late off the corners, when we even try, the result will be the same -- can't we remember that one man up the gut will be in to help stop the run and at least have a chance to disrupt the pass?

[JoeDaSchmoe]

I wasn't too impressed with him even when he was in. As I said earlier, the passing defense was actually better without him, than with him in 2006. Him not staying on the field and being misanthropic off of it doesn't help things.

See, I can't help but think that there are other, much stronger factors in that particular stat, because it means your argument inevitably leads to saying that Kenny Wright was a better starting corner than Springs was. You may have a lower opinion of Springs than I do, but surely it doesn't go that far, right?

Burress isn't in Chad Johnson's sport, much less his league in terms of quality. Burress can be a dangerous WR, but he's one that can be frustrated and taken out of a game by a smart, physical CB-even despite his size/speed combo(honestly, then should put Macklin/Rogers on him with Taylor playing over the top). Springs can be very effective, if he's not asked to take on challenges, but to basically squat on a lesser WR imo.

Chad Johnson is, I believe, a top five receiver in the league. The comparison wasn't between him and Burress - it was merely to point out that even the best can get absolutely abused. However, I do think you're underestimating Burress - he currently leads the NFL in touchdowns, tied with only the Wonder Twin combination of Brady-to-Moss. He's not Chad, but I'd put him in the top 15, and the top 15 should routinely be able to make two catches against #1 corners.

[akhhorus]

See, I can't help but think that there are other, much stronger factors in that particular stat, because it means your argument inevitably leads to saying that Kenny Wright was a better starting corner than Springs was. You may have a lower opinion of Springs than I do, but surely it doesn't go that far, right?

I didn't say that. When Rogers was locked in on a top WR, the pass defense seemed to do better(see Carolina 2006).

Chad Johnson is, I believe, a top five receiver in the league. The comparison wasn't between him and Burress - it was merely to point out that even the best can get absolutely abused. However, I do think you're underestimating Burress - he currently leads the NFL in touchdowns, tied with only the Wonder Twin combination of Brady-to-Moss. He's not Chad, but I'd put him in the top 15, and the top 15 should routinely be able to make two catches against #1 corners.

Meh. I think he making the least of amazing physical ability. There's no one I can think of in the NFL who can rival Burress' size/speed. His problem is that if he gets frustrated early by the CB, he gives up essentially. I don't think he should be beating a #1 CB even for 2 catches, because the CB should know the book on Burress.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Wait, wait, random question I just thought of for you, Akh.... I'm just guessing here, but based off of what you said about Burress' TD, are you attributing all of Burress' catches to Springs? I can see why you would do that, since it would be the traditional #1 WR-#1 CB matchup, but I think a majority of his catches actually happened when Springs was on someone else. Zone and all that. Great strategy.

[akhhorus]

Wait, wait, random question I just thought of for you, Akh.... I'm just guessing here, but based off of what you said about Burress' TD, are you attributing all of Burress' catches to Springs? I can see why you would do that, since it would be the traditional #1 WR-#1 CB matchup, but I think a majority of his catches actually happened when Springs was on someone else. Zone and all that. Great strategy.

No, I don't. And I really don't like to count when a CB is playing loose and is the vicinity of the WR in a zone. Springs got beat more than twice by Burress and had the PI(on Burress).

[JoeDaSchmoe]

I didn't say that. When Rogers was locked in on a top WR, the pass defense seemed to do better(see Carolina 2006).

I know you didn't say that, but you keep quoting the opposing pass yards/game to make your point. In other words, you're saying that because our opponents averaged fewer yards/game when Rogers/Wright were starting instead of Springs/Rogers, Springs didn't play all that well. I know Rogers takes over #1 CB duties, not Wright, but you're using a statistic that judges the entire pass defense to analyze one player. In other words, you're trying to say that we should judge Springs' ability when he is the only cog that is replaced in the starting lineup. Naturally, that leads to the assumption, "Well, if he was the cog that was replaced, that means the replacing cog must have been better," which I don't think you would say.

Meh. I think he making the least of amazing physical ability. There's no one I can think of in the NFL who can rival Burress' size/speed. His problem is that if he gets frustrated early by the CB, he gives up essentially. I don't think he should be beating a #1 CB even for 2 catches, because the CB should know the book on Burress.

Burress is a 70 catch/year guy. That's just under 5 a game. I know the averages don't work perfectly because some games the passing offense blows up and some games Eli spends his time pulling grass out of his helmet, but still, who do you think he's getting the majority of these catches against? Dime backs?

[akhhorus]

I know you didn't say that, but you keep quoting the opposing pass yards/game to make your point. In other words, you're saying that because our opponents averaged fewer yards/game when Rogers/Wright were starting instead of Springs/Rogers, Springs didn't play all that well. I know Rogers takes over #1 CB duties, not Wright, but you're using a statistic that judges the entire pass defense to analyze one player. In other words, you're trying to say that we should judge Springs' ability when he is the only cog that is replaced in the starting lineup. Naturally, that leads to the assumption, "Well, if he was the cog that was replaced, that means the replacing cog must have been better," which I don't think you would say.

The replacing cog doesn't necessarily have to be any better. The team can play a different defense to compensate.

Burress is a 70 catch/year guy. That's just under 5 a game. I know the averages don't work perfectly because some games the passing offense blows up and some games Eli spends his time pulling grass out of his helmet, but still, who do you think he's getting the majority of these catches against? Dime backs?

Actually I think the combo of Toomer, Shockey and Burress(and Tiki in the past) really spreads out the defenses and encourages teams to play Cover-3s, instead of pressing on Burress which frustrates him(see 2nd Dallas game, Atlanta, Seattle and Chicago games in 2006). As for his stats(before this year), he has 139 catches/2202 yards in 31 games for New York. Thats 4.48 catches and 71 yards a game. Meh.

[redskin_rich]

You all arguing over our secondary now? I thought this was about our lack of pressure. Either way, the blame goes to GW, who has autonomy over his unit and I'm almost positive he has had the most say over his personnel. I would put our secondary in the top ten right now, despite the early problems and GW wasting an incredible amount of Safety talent by playing the cover-2.

Anyway, if we had another good player on the D-Line, regardless of position, that commanded constant double teams, we wouldn't be talking about GW or the secondary or anything else defensive related, except for how awesome they are.

[shally]

You all arguing over our secondary now? I thought this was about our lack of pressure. Either way, the blame goes to GW, who has autonomy over his unit and I'm almost positive he has had the most say over his personnel. I would put our secondary in the top ten right now, despite the early problems and GW wasting an incredible amount of Safety talent by playing the cover-2.

Anyway, if we had another good player on the D-Line, regardless of position, that commanded constant double teams, we wouldn't be talking about GW or the secondary or anything else defensive related, except for how awesome they are.

especially at end...

[JoeDaSchmoe]

The replacing cog doesn't necessarily have to be any better. The team can play a different defense to compensate.

Actually I think the combo of Toomer, Shockey and Burress(and Tiki in the past) really spreads out the defenses and encourages teams to play Cover-3s, instead of pressing on Burress which frustrates him(see 2nd Dallas game, Atlanta, Seattle and Chicago games in 2006). As for his stats(before this year), he has 139 catches/2202 yards in 31 games for New York. Thats 4.48 catches and 71 yards a game. Meh.

Alright, well, obviously we've got differing opinions on Springs (and maybe, to a lesser extent, Smoot). However, we both agree that this soft zone crap is absolutely not working, and that Williams' stubbornness with it is inexplicable, which is the real point here. I have no idea where our defensive coordinator from 04/05 went. It really is like he's a completely different person.

Rich, yes, another pass rusher would be great, but I don't at all believe we need one. We didn't have one in the two years that GW's defense worked here. In fact, it sounds counter-intuitive, but I almost think that the fact that we went out and got Carter has actually made GW call inferior plays, because he now believes that we should get more pressure from the line. If he came up to me and said that he'd agree to go back to the '04 defensive plays, but only if we cut Carter, I'd tell him to do it in a heartbeat.

[Brokenstriker]

I wish I had written this ...

[Keino]

Actually I think the combo of Toomer, Shockey and Burress(and Tiki in the past) really spreads out the defenses and encourages teams to play Cover-3s, instead of pressing on Burress which frustrates him(see 2nd Dallas game, Atlanta, Seattle and Chicago games in 2006). As for his stats(before this year), he has 139 catches/2202 yards in 31 games for New York. Thats 4.48 catches and 71 yards a game. Meh.

Wait a minute. 71 Catches for 1136 (Giant numbers extrapolated over 16 games) is Meh? That's top 15 in both stats in most years and considering the other weapons you mention, I would hardly call that Meh.

[redskin_rich]

Rich, yes, another pass rusher would be great, but I don't at all believe we need one. We didn't have one in the two years that GW's defense worked here. In fact, it sounds counter-intuitive, but I almost think that the fact that we went out and got Carter has actually made GW call inferior plays, because he now believes that we should get more pressure from the line. If he came up to me and said that he'd agree to go back to the '04 defensive plays, but only if we cut Carter, I'd tell him to do it in a heartbeat.
I totally disagree. '04 was smoke and mirrors, the cracks were starting to show in '05. GW couldn't have a repeat performance of '04 if he wanted to with our personnel. Griff and Springs both had career years in '04 and both are breaking down now. A stud up front with fix a lot of things. Carter isn't it and Griff isn't anymore either.

You can have schemes, I want players.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I totally disagree. '04 was smoke and mirrors, the cracks were starting to show in '05. GW couldn't have a repeat performance of '04 if he wanted to with our personnel. Griff and Springs both had career years in '04 and both are breaking down now. A stud up front with fix a lot of things. Carter isn't it and Griff isn't anymore either.

You can have schemes, I want players.
If you start with the players you can actually have both, and build a very good defense (or team in general). If you only have the scheme and no players, you're gonna suck.

[akhhorus]

Alright, well, obviously we've got differing opinions on Springs (and maybe, to a lesser extent, Smoot). However, we both agree that this soft zone crap is absolutely not working, and that Williams' stubbornness with it is inexplicable, which is the real point here. I have no idea where our defensive coordinator from 04/05 went. It really is like he's a completely different person.


Agreed. And what is more mystifying is that Williams said he was going to dump those zones.

Wait a minute. 71 Catches for 1136 (Giant numbers extrapolated over 16 games) is Meh? That's top 15 in both stats in most years and considering the other weapons you mention, I would hardly call that Meh.

But he's only hit those numbers twice in his career(PIT and NYG). He's a solid 65ish catches for 800-900 yards WR. which isn't too impressive considering his talent/physical abilities. 71 catches, btw, would have put Plax tied for 24th in the NFL last year.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Dude read the post. He is talking about the defense causing the stop, defending the pass on third down, instead of the opposing offense miscuing like an overthrown ball or dropping easy passes.

I did. Looking at the play by play I credit our D with making 4 good stops on third down in the first half against the Giants. One was 3-1 and the Giants ran for it and we stopped them. That should count. Two others I believe they threw for it on third and long and we stopped them short of the first down after the catches were made. Those should count too.

Here are the ones I counted from the play by play.

3-1-NYG 46 (1:45) 34-D.Ward left tackle to NYG 46 for no gain (96-C.Griffin).

3-8-NYG 22 (12:38) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass short middle to 34-D.Ward to NYG 29 for 7 yards (20-P.Prioleau).

3-9-NYG 45 (4:54) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass short middle to 81-A.Toomer to WAS 49 for 6 yards (24-S.Springs).

3-10-NYG 32 (1:42) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass intended for 80-J.Shockey INTERCEPTED by 59-L.Fletcher (92-D.Evans) at NYG 43. 59-L.Fletcher to NYG 34 for 9 yards (34-D.Ward).

[shally]

Alright, well, obviously we've got differing opinions on Springs (and maybe, to a lesser extent, Smoot). However, we both agree that this soft zone crap is absolutely not working, and that Williams' stubbornness with it is inexplicable, which is the real point here. I have no idea where our defensive coordinator from 04/05 went. It really is like he's a completely different person.

Rich, yes, another pass rusher would be great, but I don't at all believe we need one. We didn't have one in the two years that GW's defense worked here. In fact, it sounds counter-intuitive, but I almost think that the fact that we went out and got Carter has actually made GW call inferior plays, because he now believes that we should get more pressure from the line. If he came up to me and said that he'd agree to go back to the '04 defensive plays, but only if we cut Carter, I'd tell him to do it in a heartbeat.

i could not possibly disagree more... no disrespect intended, but we badly need another pass rusher

[Moe]

I don't know of anyone who keeps track of hurries, but Carolina has had 2 sacks all year and I'd still take their Cbs over ours any day of the week.

<nitpick alert>Being in Charlotte I see a lot of the Panthers and I'd strongly disagree with you here. Lucas is manic/depressive. Great one week (holding Holt in check week 1) and horrific the next (shredded by Roddy Freaking White last week). Chris Gamble is an elite athlete who happens to play football, but is an average CB on his best days. Richard Marshall shows promise for a young player but he's not even close to Rogers or Springs at this point, but I'd take him over Smoot.

[Moe]

I'm sure Peppers and company are still getting more pressure and hurries than our front 4. I don't care if you have 4 Champ Baileys out there running around in the secondary, if any QB in this league can sit in the pocket for 5 seconds like Eli did in the second half, it won't matter.

You would think, but to this point not by a long shot. Jenkins has looked ok and gotten some push up the gut, but Rucker is actually worse than Daniels, Kemoeatu is stealing money from them (never seen a 350 lbs. man get so easily blocked and pushed back) and there have been calls to bench Peppers after coming up blank on the stat sheet last week aside from one batted ball. Their d-line has been awful to this point and while Peppers certainly gets the bulk of the attention, I've never heard louder criticisms of his lack of effort before this year. He was called out by Richardson (the owner) in a public team function to become more of a leader and to this point he's done zippy.

Moral of the story, the clouds loom large in many NFL cities these days.

[Moe]

i dont have the figures at hand, but i remember someone posting here that defense was not GW's problem at buffalo... i think that players like spikes, pat williams and others were on his defense


GW's mistake in Buffalo was hiring Kevin Gilbride to run a quasi run n' shoot with a horrible o-line and the Statue that was Drew Bledsoe standing tall to get hammered or escape and deftly toss a pick. The '85 Bears couldn't have made up the difference on that squad.

Toss that into the hopper of reasons why we should probably hope he nevers gets the top spot in DC.

[Battle Cat]

Add in the hopper he is another George Karl in basketball or Bill Parcels in football. They come in and are a change up and get great returns at the beginning but not being a people person begins to wear on people and alienate players and always have people in their dog houses and by the time there tenure is up the players hate them and are not playing well. I truly beleive that J. Gibbs is the buffer keeping that ship on the road. Pierce, Bailey, Harris, Arrington, McIntosh, Springs.

[Moe]

^^
Very well could be true. That abrasive personality wears out quickly when you aren't seeing any direct benefits.

[Keino]

But he's only hit those numbers twice in his career(PIT and NYG). He's a solid 65ish catches for 800-900 yards WR. which isn't too impressive considering his talent/physical abilities. 71 catches, btw, would have put Plax tied for 24th in the NFL last year.


Right but you posted his per game averages and extrapolated over a season, those aren't crappy numbers. And while 71 catches puts him at 24 last year, the 15th best person had 74 Receptions. Now does he produce over the course of the season at that rate? No, he seems to miss a game or 5 per year with some injury, but the numbers in and of themselves as a Giant (My sole point of contention) are Top 15 Numbers in most years.

I agree 65 for 800-900 is Meh. What I don't agree with is that 71 for 1136 is Meh.

[Slobberknocker]

Matt Bowen writes for the Examiner? Redskins at home in Tampa 2? Puke bag -- where are you?

LINK: http://www.examiner.com/a-955814~Skins_at_home_in_Tampa_Two.html

Skins at home in Tampa Two
by Matt Bowen, The Examiner

WASHINGTON (Map, News) - The Cover 2, embraced by just about every NFL defense, has found a niche in D.C. The Washington Redskins are running it more than ever.

Yes, the Redskins are a pressure team, but you can’t pressure an opponent all game.

The “Tampa 2” - called that because of its success when Tony Dungy coached the Buccaneers - needs certain ingredients to make it work, which the Redskins have: a middle linebacker who can run, physical and athletic corners, two safeties with range who can hit, and a line that can pressure the quarterback. The defense must be fast, physical, and have excellent pursuit.

The Tampa 2 requires the middle linebacker, in this case London Fletcher, to run the middle of the field against tight ends and wide receivers. This creates almost a three-deep look, with safeties Sean Taylor and LaRon Landry covering the deep halves and overlapping on Fletcher after the pass. The corners sink to protect the safeties on corner routes and react to any ball thrown in front of them. The other linebackers drop to an area between the hash marks and the numbers, moving with the quarterback, trying to steal any routes thrown underneath Fletcher.

This leaves the biggest question mark facing Washington. Can its line apply pressure? This remains to be seen. End Andre Carter and the boys need to produce sacks to keep using this package.

It sounds simple. It looks simple on paper. It is anything but simple.

This defense requires a strict discipline in coverage area and reaction. It is challenged by the same routes run by every team. Sunday, the Giants kept sending tight end Jeremy Shockey down the seam against Fletcher, and had receiver Plaxico Burress sit down in the holes vacated by defenders. Three major routes can beat the Tampa 2: the 7-route (hitch, corner), where they sneak in a corner route behind the corner and in front of the safety; four verticals where they put two seam routes on Fletcher, and the outside vertical stretch (flat-corner-go route), where they run off the safety and hit the 7-route over the corner. However, good Tampa 2 defenses force passes to the flat every time, because they hit their landmarks, rely on the rush and react to the ball.

This defense will pressure opposing offenses. But with the ability to sprinkle in Tampa 2 — a turnover machine — it will allow them to dictate the style of game.

Former Redskins safety Matt Bowen, a seven-year NFL veteran, contributes a weekly column to The Examiner during the season.

[CNYSkinFan]

And now we know why Matt Bowen is out of football.....

[wewantdallas]

I agree 65 for 800-900 is Meh. What I don't agree with is that 71 for 1136 is Meh.

I am far from a stat guy. I'll leave that to the experts here. But all I know is, whenever I see Plaxico Burress line up against us, it scares the crap out of me. I've seen that guy make so many huge plays over the years, many against us. He's not an elite receiver, but he's a SCARY receiver when he decides not to take a day off. That's exactly the kind of big target we need in our own offense to complement Moss.

[Keino]

And now we know why Matt Bowen is out of football.....

Why? He clearly writes that the Big question mark for us in running the Cover 2 is the Line Pressure. I don't think he is necessarily advocating its use, but describing what it takes to run it successfully.

[akhhorus]

<nitpick alert>Being in Charlotte I see a lot of the Panthers and I'd strongly disagree with you here. Lucas is manic/depressive. Great one week (holding Holt in check week 1) and horrific the next (shredded by Roddy Freaking White last week). Chris Gamble is an elite athlete who happens to play football, but is an average CB on his best days. Richard Marshall shows promise for a young player but he's not even close to Rogers or Springs at this point, but I'd take him over Smoot.

The problem is that all 3 of our guys are Ken Lucas level at best. I really like Rogers, but Williams apparently doesn't. He's our best. I would take Gamble over Springs and Marshall over Smoot anytime.

Why? He clearly writes that the Big question mark for us in running the Cover 2 is the Line Pressure. I don't think he is necessarily advocating its use, but describing what it takes to run it successfully.

Trivia question: What player was taken in the draft right after Matt Bowen?

[redskin_rich]

Okay, first Bowen says this (emphasis on the bold):
The “Tampa 2” - called that because of its success when Tony Dungy coached the Buccaneers - needs certain ingredients to make it work, which the Redskins have: a middle linebacker who can run, physical and athletic corners, two safeties with range who can hit, and a line that can pressure the quarterback. The defense must be fast, physical, and have excellent pursuit.

Then he says this:
This leaves the biggest question mark facing Washington. Can its line apply pressure? This remains to be seen. End Andre Carter and the boys need to produce sacks to keep using this package.
So, first we have the right ingredients but then later, the most vital ingredient is a big question mark.

Way to come strong with the opinion there, Matt.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

The problem is that all 3 of our guys are Ken Lucas level at best. I really like Rogers, but Williams apparently doesn't. He's our best. I would take Gamble over Springs and Marshall over Smoot anytime.



Trivia question: What player was taken in the draft right after Matt Bowen?

O'Halloran of the Wash. Times disagrees about Williams' faith in Rogers.

"Carlos Rogers


Rogers, the Redskins' third-year cornerback, has been elevated to the top spot because of Fred Smoot's hamstring injury. When the Redskins have had just one corner on the field the last two games, it's been Rogers, not veteran Shawn Springs.


The problem: Rogers hasn't performed well enough to justify his current standing. And opponents know it.


Teams have unofficially thrown at Rogers 23 times in three games, completing 13 of those passes for 144 yards and two touchdowns, including Plaxico Burress' 33-yard game-winner on Sunday. Rogers has two penalties and two pass breakups.


October will be a huge month for Rogers and the secondary. The Redskins face Detroit (first in passing), Green Bay (sixth), Arizona (13th) and New England (third)."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070926/SPORTS01/109260090/1005/SPORTS&template=nextpage

[Keino]

Trivia question: What player was taken in the draft right after Matt Bowen?


I cheated, so I will just say....WOW.

Tom Brady.

[shally]

Matt Bowen writes for the Examiner? Redskins at home in Tampa 2? Puke bag -- where are you?

LINK: http://www.examiner.com/a-955814~Skins_at_home_in_Tampa_Two.html

Skins at home in Tampa Two
by Matt Bowen, The Examiner

WASHINGTON (Map, News) - The Cover 2, embraced by just about every NFL defense, has found a niche in D.C. The Washington Redskins are running it more than ever.

Yes, the Redskins are a pressure team, but you can’t pressure an opponent all game.

The “Tampa 2” - called that because of its success when Tony Dungy coached the Buccaneers - needs certain ingredients to make it work, which the Redskins have: a middle linebacker who can run, physical and athletic corners, two safeties with range who can hit, and a line that can pressure the quarterback. The defense must be fast, physical, and have excellent pursuit.

The Tampa 2 requires the middle linebacker, in this case London Fletcher, to run the middle of the field against tight ends and wide receivers. This creates almost a three-deep look, with safeties Sean Taylor and LaRon Landry covering the deep halves and overlapping on Fletcher after the pass. The corners sink to protect the safeties on corner routes and react to any ball thrown in front of them. The other linebackers drop to an area between the hash marks and the numbers, moving with the quarterback, trying to steal any routes thrown underneath Fletcher.

This leaves the biggest question mark facing Washington. Can its line apply pressure? This remains to be seen. End Andre Carter and the boys need to produce sacks to keep using this package.

It sounds simple. It looks simple on paper. It is anything but simple.

This defense requires a strict discipline in coverage area and reaction. It is challenged by the same routes run by every team. Sunday, the Giants kept sending tight end Jeremy Shockey down the seam against Fletcher, and had receiver Plaxico Burress sit down in the holes vacated by defenders. Three major routes can beat the Tampa 2: the 7-route (hitch, corner), where they sneak in a corner route behind the corner and in front of the safety; four verticals where they put two seam routes on Fletcher, and the outside vertical stretch (flat-corner-go route), where they run off the safety and hit the 7-route over the corner. However, good Tampa 2 defenses force passes to the flat every time, because they hit their landmarks, rely on the rush and react to the ball.

This defense will pressure opposing offenses. But with the ability to sprinkle in Tampa 2 — a turnover machine — it will allow them to dictate the style of game.

Former Redskins safety Matt Bowen, a seven-year NFL veteran, contributes a weekly column to The Examiner during the season.

i saw that.. and it made me ill....

[Biggie]

I cheated, so I will just say....WOW.

Tom Brady.

To be fair, everyone else in the league passed on him too (and more than once), including the Patriots.

[redskin_rich]

To be fair, everyone else in the league passed on him too (and more than once), including the Patriots.

We didn't draft Bowen anyway but we did trade a pick for him.

[akhhorus]

O'Halloran of the Wash. Times disagrees about Williams' faith in Rogers.

"Carlos Rogers


Rogers, the Redskins' third-year cornerback, has been elevated to the top spot because of Fred Smoot's hamstring injury. When the Redskins have had just one corner on the field the last two games, it's been Rogers, not veteran Shawn Springs.


The problem: Rogers hasn't performed well enough to justify his current standing. And opponents know it.


Teams have unofficially thrown at Rogers 23 times in three games, completing 13 of those passes for 144 yards and two touchdowns, including Plaxico Burress' 33-yard game-winner on Sunday. Rogers has two penalties and two pass breakups.


October will be a huge month for Rogers and the secondary. The Redskins face Detroit (first in passing), Green Bay (sixth), Arizona (13th) and New England (third)."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070926/SPORTS01/109260090/1005/SPORTS&template=nextpage

The TImes has and still is a joke. Rogers had a decent game against Miami, a great game against Phily and a solid game against NY. Unless he's counted every time someone catches the ball with Rogers within 4-5 yards of the receiver, I don't know how he can come up with those stats.

[shally]

We didn't draft Bowen anyway but we did trade a pick for him.

yup.. 6th rounder.. another pick that could have become mario monds or some other troll...lol

[akhhorus]

I cheated, so I will just say....WOW.

Tom Brady.

Look at the rest of the round:
Marc Bulger, Robaire Smith, Neil Rackers, Paul Edinger, Dhani Jones, Jeno James, Adalius Thomas, Tom Brady, Mike Anderson..and the Redskins' pick: Todd Husak. With Mark Tauscher in the next round.

[shally]

The TImes has and still is a joke. Rogers had a decent game against Miami, a great game against Phily and a solid game against NY. Unless he's counted every time someone catches the ball with Rogers within 4-5 yards of the receiver, I don't know how he can come up with those stats.

i think they are using him wrong.. as physical as he is, they should let him face up against receivers tight to the line and provide him with deep help if he gets beaten

i think they are destroying his confidence by moving him 10-12 yards of the line and denying him any opportunity of bumping the receiver off his route because he is already out of the no contact zone

as for his hands, i have no suggestions except to have his vision and reflexes checked out. nobody who is that good an athlete overall should lack that much hand-eye coordination.. there simply has to be a physiologic reason

[shally]

Look at the rest of the round:
Marc Bulger, Robaire Smith, Neil Rackers, Paul Edinger, Dhani Jones, Jeno James, Adalius Thomas, Tom Brady, Mike Anderson..and the Redskins' pick: Todd Husak. With Mark Tauscher in the next round.

did you do the study about 6th rounds over the years ?? someone did and amazingly enough, the 6th round has consistently produced players..
for the second day it seems to have an unusually high number of hits..
even with the skins you have doughty and golston

[akhhorus]

did you do the study about 6th rounds over the years ?? someone did and amazingly enough, the 6th round has consistently produced players..
for the second day it seems to have an unusually high number of hits..
even with the skins you have doughty and golston

This is something that the Draft Pick Study COmmittee will be exploring.

[shally]

This is something that the Draft Pick Study COmmittee will be exploring.

perhaps the skins should consider trading all their second day picks up or down to have control of the entire 6th round...lol

and let me not be responsible for you spending more time away from the important things in your life... i dont want to be receiving outraged PM's from your loved ones...lol

[Slobberknocker]

Might the misuse of Rogers in part explain the emergence of Walt "Shutdown" Harris in Frisco?

Nolan seems (I haven't watched that close) to be playing a very aggressive style of D with Clements and Harris given sole outside responsibilities.

If we only used him in nickel... might that be symptomatic of our situation with Rogers? As shally says, Rogers just plays better when he's tight on the receiver rather than playing with that idiotic cushion.

I can just see it now... we let Rogers go and he becomes a perennial pro bowler for the Steelers.

OK, end of nightmare.

[shally]

Might the misuse of Rogers in part explain the emergence of Walt "Shutdown" Harris in Frisco?

Nolan seems (I haven't watched that close) to be playing a very aggressive style of D with Clements and Harris given sole outside responsibilities.

If we only used him in nickel... might that be symptomatic of our situation with Rogers? As shally says, Rogers just plays better when he's tight on the receiver rather than playing with that idiotic cushion.

I can just see it now... we let Rogers go and he becomes a perennial pro bowler for the Steelers.

OK, end of nightmare.

he is too young to give up on him

i think we would still have harris if his age, injury history, and salary had been reasonable..

[James F. Quinn]

. I have no idea where our defensive coordinator from 04/05 went. It really is like he's a completely different person.


ALL RIGHT! WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH GREGG WILLIAMS!?

(Sorry for all the caps!)

[Slobberknocker]

he is too young to give up on him

i think we would still have harris if his age, injury history, and salary had been reasonable..

I think you're right about Rogers. Since when did the Cover 2 become a staple of our defense though? Did Williams lie about not having the right personnel last year? Was he just teasing us in preseason?

How ironic, if true. He brings the house when it doesn't count and plays vanilla when it does.

:whoknows:

[NCskinsfanatic]

Might the misuse of Rogers in part explain the emergence of Walt "Shutdown" Harris in Frisco?

Nolan seems (I haven't watched that close) to be playing a very aggressive style of D with Clements and Harris given sole outside responsibilities.

If we only used him in nickel... might that be symptomatic of our situation with Rogers? As shally says, Rogers just plays better when he's tight on the receiver rather than playing with that idiotic cushion.

I can just see it now... we let Rogers go and he becomes a perennial pro bowler for the Steelers.

OK, end of nightmare.

More and more I'm beginning to agree that the problem lies in GW's scheme moreso than the talent level at CB

[Slobberknocker]

I still want to know why the NFL hasn't "caught up" to Dick Labeau though. Maybe the 3-4 allows him to disguise more looks.

All I know is I can't tell where anybody is coming from the way they line up. And he never stops pressuring.

I admire that about the Steelers.

[akhhorus]

I still want to know why the NFL hasn't "caught up" to Dick Labeau though. Maybe the 3-4 allows him to disguise more looks.

All I know is I can't tell where anybody is coming from the way they line up. And he never stops pressuring.

I admire that about the Steelers.

I think it a lot to do with great personnel decisions where they know what they need in every position and target that kind of player.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I think it a lot to do with great personnel decisions where they know what they need in every position and target that kind of player.
Yeah. And that's pretty much what Gregg Williams does too.



Except that then he goes out and does the exact opposite of what he planned for.

[shally]

Yeah. And that's pretty much what Gregg Williams does too.



Except that then he goes out and does the exact opposite of what he planned for.


i hated having nolan as DC.. but williams is fast rising up to join him
in the pantheon of idiots who have heald that seat

[akhhorus]

i hated having nolan as DC.. but williams is fast rising up to join him
in the pantheon of idiots who have heald that seat

Ah yeah, the Ron Lynn-Mike Nolan-George Edwards Unholy Trinity.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

The TImes has and still is a joke. Rogers had a decent game against Miami, a great game against Phily and a solid game against NY. Unless he's counted every time someone catches the ball with Rogers within 4-5 yards of the receiver, I don't know how he can come up with those stats.

I think Rogers has played well (with room for improvement) also, but I thought the statement about Rogers being on the field with no other corner was interesting.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Does anyone remember an article (Post I believe) about how Williams was not going to use the cover 2 very much this year?

I would swear I read that somewhere.

[shally]

Ah yeah, the Ron Lynn-Mike Nolan-George Edwards Unholy Trinity.

not to mention an underwhelming job by marvin lewis, a pre-stroke effort by ray rhodes (surprised that snyder doesnt get blamed for that as well) and some family schottenheimer person as well.. and, oh yes, the in season consultation by orangeburger himself...

[shally]

Does anyone remember an article (Post I believe) about how Williams was not going to use the cover 2 very much this year?

I would swear I read that somewhere.

he lied......


or was that because our defensive line was going to be so overwhelming ?

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Does anyone remember an article (Post I believe) about how Williams was not going to use the cover 2 very much this year?

I would swear I read that somewhere.
It wasn't just one article. It was the whole friggin' offseason plan. And the reason we drafted Landry, by the way.
I must have read/listened about not using the Cover 2 anymore every single day of the offseason. Yet, here we are again.

[shally]

It wasn't just one article. It was the whole friggin' offseason plan. And the reason we drafted Landry, by the way.
I must have read/listened about not using the Cover 2 anymore every single day of the offseason. Yet, here we are again.

this is starting to feel like groundhog day.. the nfl version :doh:

[akhhorus]

he lied......


or was that because our defensive line was going to be so overwhelming ?

I didn't trust Williams before he said that, but that quote of his and the evidence in contrary of it makes me wonder how anyone can believe him.

[shally]

I didn't trust Williams before he said that, but that quote of his and the evidence in contrary of it makes me wonder how anyone can believe him.


on one level i have to feel sorry for gibbs because he really does not deal with the defense much, if at all.

on the other hand, williams is his handpicked man and this is year 4 of their marriage.. you have to get the sense that gibbs is familiar with williams' dissembling and prevarications.. still, they are joined at the hip for the rest of this year at least...i keep getting this sinking feeling

[akhhorus]

on one level i have to feel sorry for gibbs because he really does not deal with the defense much, if at all.

on the other hand, williams is his handpicked man and this is year 4 of their marriage.. you have to get the sense that gibbs is familiar with williams' dissembling and prevarications.. still, they are joined at the hip for the rest of this year at least...i keep getting this sinking feeling

Gibbs is responsible for hiring Williams and for tolerating this nonsense. But its easier to just criticize the WaPo rather than fixing problems in Ashburn apparently.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

This thread, because of the many true points raised, is more depressing than any of the other threads this week.

[shally]

Gibbs is responsible for hiring Williams and for tolerating this nonsense. But its easier to just criticize the WaPo rather than fixing problems in Ashburn apparently.

it's a bunker mentality for certain.. but i also get the feeling that they dont have a clue how to really fix things because the same things keep coming up
whether it is saying one thing and then doing another, or poor communications between players and coaches or even members of the coaching staff..

[HAWGZHEAD]

If anyone is into self-torture NFL network is re-airing the game at 8 tonight.

[Keino]

it's a bunker mentality for certain.. but i also get the feeling that they dont have a clue how to really fix things because the same things keep coming up
whether it is saying one thing and then doing another, or poor communications between players and coaches or even members of the coaching staff..

Did you see how defensive Gibbs got at the mention of "Clock/Time management issues"?

[JoeDaSchmoe]

it's a bunker mentality for certain.. but i also get the feeling that they dont have a clue how to really fix things because the same things keep coming up
whether it is saying one thing and then doing another, or poor communications between players and coaches or even members of the coaching staff..

With some things I suspect this is true, but we all know Gregg Williams has a lot more up his sleeve than the Cover 2... we've seen it before. We saw it for two years. Hell, we saw it last week. It's not a matter of not being able to figure out an alternative - it's a matter of willfully ignoring that alternative.

[shally]

Did you see how defensive Gibbs got at the mention of "Clock/Time management issues"?

yes.. and well he should be.. he's a hall of fame coach still dealing with issues that a first year headcoach usually has resolved early in his first year.

wonder how many clock issues pittsburgh is having ?? or even oakland with their first year coach ?

it is simply disgraceful, and the only answer i can come up with is that TOO many people have input into the playcalling process on game day or
alternatively, the one guy who does the calling (whoever that is) is simply not good enough

[shally]

With some things I suspect this is true, but we all know Gregg Williams has a lot more up his sleeve than the Cover 2... we've seen it before. We saw it for two years. Hell, we saw it last week. It's not a matter of not being able to figure out an alternative - it's a matter of willfully ignoring that alternative.

if THAT is truly the case then what we have is a "fox and cat" fable come to life.. GW (fox) is so smart and so cagey and so full of brilliant ideas that he ends up being paralyzed into inaction or bad choices and gets caught by the hounds.. whereas the cat who has one trick that works all the time lives to fight another day

williams is either outsmarting himself constantly, or he simply isnt that bright in the last analysis.. either answer is not good

[MikeBass]

if THAT is truly the case then what we have is a "fox and cat" fable come to life.. GW (fox) is so smart and so cagey and so full of brilliant ideas that he ends up being paralyzed into inaction or bad choices and gets caught by the hounds.. whereas the cat who has one trick that works all the time lives to fight another day

williams is either outsmarting himself constantly, or he simply isnt that bright in the last analysis.. either answer is not good

You are hard on this guy for no reason but that he has not constructed his defense like the defenses of the '70's. The game has changed and he is trying to change with the game. In 2/3 of his tenure in DC, prior to this this season, he has proven to be a very capable DC. In fact, his units carried the team, in the seasons in which they were not injured and he had to deviate from his system.

Even this season, 2/3 and a half of our games was carried by his defense.. I think that he is doing exactly what he needs to do to win games, the offensive inabilities is not his but he has being doing a pretty god job of making up for them, most of the time ,that he has been with us but his units can't keep us above waters all of the time.We HAVE to have some offense.

We are all over his style but the biggest problem that we have is that we have no possession receiver who can keep drives going and that is showing this season and is the sole product of Cooley's lack of consistent production. Every big play that we have is a deep pass to either Moss or Are, precentages is NOT there on these type of plays.

[akhhorus]

You are hard on this guy for no reason but that he has not constructed his defense like the defenses of the '70's. The game has changed and he is trying to change with the game. In 2/3 of his tenure in DC, prior to this this season, he has proven to be a very capable DC. In fact, his units carried the team, in the seasons in which they were not injured and he had to deviate from his system.

Even this season, 2/3 and a half of our games was carried by his defense.. I think that he is doing exactly what he needs to do to win games, the offensive inabilities is not his but he has being doing a pretty god job of making up for them, most of the time ,that he has been with us but his units can't keep us above waters all of the time.We HAVE to have some offense.


His defense has gone from top 5 to top 15 to top 32, and you're saying with a straight face that he's "very capable"? Same blind nonsense. Williams said he was going to play more aggressive this season to maximize Landry and he's done the complete opposite. It cost us 1 game and almost cost us the other two. Yet, you think the problem is the offense. Simply stunning.

[LATrueRedskin]

His defense has gone from top 5 to top 15 to top 32, and you're saying with a straight face that he's "very capable"? Same blind nonsense. Williams said he was going to play more aggressive this season to maximize Landry and he's done the complete opposite. It cost us 1 game and almost cost us the other two. Yet, you think the problem is the offense. Simply stunning.

Yeah, very discouraging. Why did we draft this guy if we're not going to use him properly? The kid is a baller, and could be an absolute force around the line of scrimmage, yet we "Adam Archuleta-ize" him. Gregg Williams better put his foot on the pedal of this defense because this prevent defense stuff ain't gonna fly all year.

[MikeBass]

His defense has gone from top 5 to top 15 to top 32, and you're saying with a straight face that he's "very capable"? Same blind nonsense. Williams said he was going to play more aggressive this season to maximize Landry and he's done the complete opposite. It cost us 1 game and almost cost us the other two. Yet, you think the problem is the offense. Simply stunning.

Check your stats again, I think that his defense has gone from top 5 to #9, to 31 (when injured) and again, to this date is #10 (when semi-healthy again)...his defense did not lose the game alone Sunday.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

I think that he is doing exactly what he needs to do to win games

Really? Do tell.

[MikeBass]

Really? Do tell.

Yes do, the offense has to put points on the board

[akhhorus]

Check your stats again, I think that his defense has gone from top 5 to #9, to 31 (when injured) and again, to this date is #10 (when semi-healthy again)...his defense did not lose the game alone Sunday.

2nd, 9th, 31st. Thats still a bad track. And again what injuries? Griffin? He missed 2 games in 06. Big Joe? He missed 3. Springs? He missed 6-7.

And you're missing the point(as always). Williams' defense so obviously works when he plays aggressive, but he doesn't like to play aggressive. He has played aggressive from time to time so far this season, but his dropping back into those same stupid Cover-2 almost cost us the first 2 games and did cost us the Giants game. The offense excuse isn't valid imo. The Giants offense had zero problems going right down the field for a TD to start the 2nd half.

[akhhorus]

Yes do, the offense has to put points on the board

huh? He was asking you to explain how Williams was doing what he had to for the Skins to win games and this is the best you can do? If you're going to swallow the party line coming out of Ashburn gladly irregardless of any facts, go back to Pravda...I mean Redskins.com.

[shally]

You are hard on this guy for no reason but that he has not constructed his defense like the defenses of the '70's. The game has changed and he is trying to change with the game. In 2/3 of his tenure in DC, prior to this this season, he has proven to be a very capable DC. In fact, his units carried the team, in the seasons in which they were not injured and he had to deviate from his system.

Even this season, 2/3 and a half of our games was carried by his defense.. I think that he is doing exactly what he needs to do to win games, the offensive inabilities is not his but he has being doing a pretty god job of making up for them, most of the time ,that he has been with us but his units can't keep us above waters all of the time.We HAVE to have some offense.

We are all over his style but the biggest problem that we have is that we have no possession receiver who can keep drives going and that is showing this season and is the sole product of Cooley's lack of consistent production. Every big play that we have is a deep pass to either Moss or Are, precentages is NOT there on these type of plays.

no. simply, no... akh beat me to the post, but i agree with every word of his.

and his incredibly stubborn insistence that the defensive line is just fine and will create pressure is bunkum.. it is worthy of robert preston in the music man

His defense has gone from top 5 to top 15 to top 32, and you're saying with a straight face that he's "very capable"? Same blind nonsense. Williams said he was going to play more aggressive this season to maximize Landry and he's done the complete opposite. It cost us 1 game and almost cost us the other two. Yet, you think the problem is the offense. Simply stunning.

totally agree.. i was fine with the pick of landry over a def lineman because i was convinced that he would be used and we would at least have an aggressive back 7.. 'taint so

[shally]

Check your stats again, I think that his defense has gone from top 5 to #9, to 31 (when injured) and again, to this date is #10 (when semi-healthy again)...his defense did not lose the game alone Sunday.

i am totally sick of hearing how the injuries caused the plummet from 15 to 32.. that the injury to PP was the signal event on the first play of last year that doomed the defense for the entire year...

philly sat both dawkins and sheppard and last week played against one of the top passing offenses and they didnt collapse. why ? because their defensive line created constant pressure all game and made life miserable for the opposing qb

i am just waiting for something to happen that will justify a defensive fall off as the year progresses..

[SkinsfaninNJ]

You are hard on this guy for no reason but that he has not constructed his defense like the defenses of the '70's. The game has changed and he is trying to change with the game. In 2/3 of his tenure in DC, prior to this this season, he has proven to be a very capable DC. In fact, his units carried the team, in the seasons in which they were not injured and he had to deviate from his system.

Even this season, 2/3 and a half of our games was carried by his defense.. I think that he is doing exactly what he needs to do to win games, the offensive inabilities is not his but he has being doing a pretty god job of making up for them, most of the time ,that he has been with us but his units can't keep us above waters all of the time.We HAVE to have some offense.

We are all over his style but the biggest problem that we have is that we have no possession receiver who can keep drives going and that is showing this season and is the sole product of Cooley's lack of consistent production. Every big play that we have is a deep pass to either Moss or Are, precentages is NOT there on these type of plays.

This is the point I most disagree with you on. He decided to deviate from the system in the second half last Sunday. Injuries didn't make him do it. The Giants didn't make him do it. He made the choice. The offense didn't help the cause, but they absolutely could not get off the field on third down in the second half, which was not a problem in the first half when we were more aggresive.

[akhhorus]

no. simply, no... akh beat me to the post, but i agree with every word of his.

and his incredibly stubborn insistence that the defensive line is just fine and will create pressure is bunkum.. it is worthy of robert preston in the music man

Willy Loman might be a better example lol

totally agree.. i was fine with the pick of landry over a def lineman because i was convinced that he would be used and we would at least have an aggressive back 7.. 'taint so

Landry is amazingly NFL ready, obscenely talented and undoubtedly will become a very good to HOF Safety in the NFL. HOWEVER, for the defense, he is useless if they play him back for 75% of the plays. Landry has to attack, or the pick is pointless.

[akhhorus]

This is the point I most disagree with you on. He decided to deviate from the system in the second half last Sunday. Injuries didn't make him do it. The Giants didn't make him do it. He made the choice. The offense didn't help the cause, but they absolutely could not get off the field on third down in the second half, which was not a problem in the first half when we were more aggresive.

This is the most infuriating point. Williams plays an aggressive m2m/C-1 in the first half of that game, and they get pressure/causes turnovers and shutdowns the Giants. He then decides to get out of the defense that worked, and doesn't switch back to the defense even after it was clear that it was failing.

[MikeBass]

lol...You guys are just too cute, the defense played the exact same defense in the 2nd half as they did in the 1st half. Why would they change?

The Giants executed better and catches were made by them in the 2nd half that was dropped in the first half

players have to make plays and our players did not make the necessary plays

and by the way, Williams do not play anything the players has to be more aggressive he can only call the blitz

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Yes do, the offense has to put points on the board

What? That doesn't even make any sense. I asked you explain your previous statement in which you said GW was doing everything right to win games.

lol...You guys are just too cute, the defense played the exact same defense in the 2nd half as they did in the 1st half.

No, they didn't. I have the game recorded. I can watch it as many times as I want. GW called almost exclusively soft zone cover 2 in the second half, especially on third downs. This isn't a matter of opinion. It's possible to go back and look at what was called on each play.

Why would they change?

That's what we're wondering.

Williams do not play anything the players has to be more aggressive he can only call the blitz

That's the problem, Mike. He hardly called any blitzes. When he actually did call them, they were very effective. All of a sudden, he decided to stop calling them.

[joethefan]

Joe-great post. Myself and a bunch of others have been screaming this for a long time, I know I've brought it up in every one of my columns. Unfortunately, its just lost on some people who think that since Williams is in NFL and we're not, that we're wrong. Williams needs to go. Simple as that. Blache runs a similar defense, but is more aggressive.

while my observations were not as broke down as joe's were, which were phenominal in my opinion, I've been kinda on the GW has to go tip since last year.....IMO to continue to start Carlos Rogers after he couldn't cover a kid playing on the 4200 of Ames Street in NE DC, if he could.

When is he gonna find the ball...notice he never looks back for the ball...it seems like that skill isn't coached or he just doesn't apply it. They teach you in little league to look for the recievers' eyes. If they are going up then you know that the ball is coming, so get you friggin head around and find it.....I say we cut our losses with Rogers and go back to the drawing board....

People here still have faith in him...I don't, and that faith seeped outa me like it seeped outa me when ramsey was here.....He needs to go....and unfortunatley GW went after him.....

[SpicyMcHaggis]

lol...You guys are just too cute, the defense played the exact same defense in the 2nd half as they did in the 1st half. Why would they change?

Well, there you have it folks...

I think at this point there are only 3 possible options:
A)MikeBass does not watch the games.
B)MikeBass is GW's agent.
C)MikeBass is GW.

[Carmelo]

while my observations were not as broke down as joe's were, which were phenominal in my opinion, I've been kinda on the GW has to go tip since last year.....IMO to continue to start Carlos Rogers after he couldn't cover a kid playing on the 4200 of Ames Street in NE DC, if he could.

Hey, I grew up right around there and went to Benning Elementary right around the corner

When is he gonna find the ball...notice he never looks back for the ball...it seems like that skill isn't coached or he just doesn't apply it. They teach you in little league to look for the recievers' eyes. If they are going up then you know that the ball is coming, so get you friggin head around and find it.....I say we cut our losses with Rogers and go back to the drawing board....

I agree that Carlos needs to get his head turned around. He's supposed to stop the pass and not just stop the receiver after the pass is completed. I don't think we should cut our loses with him though. At this point, I think we pound it in his head over and over and over that he just needs to turn around and spot the ball. I think this comes from him just being nervous that a guy will get away from him and score. Maybe when he watches tape of the NY game, he'll realize that HE could score if he just turns around and locates the ball.

[akhhorus]

Well, there you have it folks...

I think at this point there are only 3 possible options:
A)MikeBass does not watch the games.
B)MikeBass is GW's agent.
C)MikeBass is GW.

I think the most realistic option is that MikeBass is watching another team and thinking that they're the skins. Its like he's watching the Bears and wondering...
"Man, when did Gibbs and Campbell switch races? Oh..my head....don't want to take my pills today......so thirsty......must eat flounder *thump*"

[Keino]

1646

[CNYSkinFan]

1646
ok this is just funny even though I don't know what post itn is responding too....

But why is it in Spanish?

[Keino]

ok this is just funny even though I don't know what post itn is responding too....

But why is it in Spanish?

It's a statement about MikeBass' view of the Defense and the Defensive Coordinator, the Cover 2 Genius.

[Biggie]

It's a statement about MikeBass' view of the Defense and the Defensive Coordinator, the Cover 2 Genius.

Is it bad that I had to Wikipedia that?

[CNYSkinFan]

Is it bad that I had to Wikipedia that?
has pollyanna fallen that far out of the general lexicon?

How about this:

http://stylusmagazine.com/pbw/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/Kool-AidMan.jpg

[Keino]

I thought "El Secreto De Pollyanna" especially apropos since clearly, MikeBass is the only one in on the Secret that he and Gregg Williams share.

Plus it cracked me up.

[shally]

has pollyanna fallen that far out of the general lexicon?

How about this:

http://stylusmagazine.com/pbw/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/Kool-AidMan.jpg

oh, yeah... indeed.. great images !!!!

[Battle Cat]

Probably going to get attacked but when a team wins the turnover battle it usually wins. When a defense causes 3 times as many turnovers as their team then you usually win. If a team has 3 turnovers the Redskins have to score more than 17 points. Most teams if the defense causes 3 turnovers you have 24-42 points something like that. There is a conservative over tone to this entire team offense and defense we need to find out where this is coming from and purge it form Redskins Park. We have to many explosive players on both sides of the ball for this Mickey Mouse bull****.

[akhhorus]

Probably going to get attacked but when a team wins the turnover battle it usually wins. When a defense causes 3 times as many turnovers as their team then you usually win. If a team has 3 turnovers the Redskins have to score more than 17 points. Most teams if the defense causes 3 turnovers you have 24-42 points something like that. There is a conservative over tone to this entire team offense and defense we need to find out where this is coming from and purge it form Redskins Park. We have to many explosive players on both sides of the ball for this Mickey Mouse bull****.

I agree that the team who wins the turnover battle it usually wins. And the offense needs to come up with more points last week, but its undeniably that the defense was a major problem. And with Portis, Moss, ARE, Cooley---how many other weapons do they need?

[shally]

I agree that the team who wins the turnover battle it usually wins. And the offense needs to come up with more points last week, but its undeniably that the defense was a major problem. And with Portis, Moss, ARE, Cooley---how many other weapons do they need?


especially at home... in most cases, a team that finishes negative in turnovers away has less than a 20% chance of winning (i think that is the figure that gibbs quoted after the philly game, which we won while being negative..)

the giants were -2.. which is really hard to overcome..

[Keino]

Probably going to get attacked but when a team wins the turnover battle it usually wins. When a defense causes 3 times as many turnovers as their team then you usually win. If a team has 3 turnovers the Redskins have to score more than 17 points. Most teams if the defense causes 3 turnovers you have 24-42 points something like that. There is a conservative over tone to this entire team offense and defense we need to find out where this is coming from and purge it form Redskins Park. We have to many explosive players on both sides of the ball for this Mickey Mouse bull****.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that the Offense was stellar. Certainly they dialed it back in the 2nd half. Still, that doesn't excuse the Defense coming out and letting the Giants drive straight down the field converting 3rd and longs like it's nothing doing exactly the opposite of what they did in the 1st half of the game to generate pressure and turnovers.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

There are two sights I have had enough of with regard to our defense:

1. Our MLB, whether it is Fletcher or Lemar Marshall, running 40 yards down the field with their back to the play trying to keep up with someone.

2. Our MLB and anyone else who is going to bring pressure up the middle drop back into coverage when the QB starts his drop only to have him handoff and the RB picks up at least 5 yards on the draw before our linebacker can get to him.

[firehawk157]

There are two sights I have had enough of with regard to our defense:

1. Our MLB, whether it is Fletcher or Lemar Marshall, running 40 yards down the field with their back to the play trying to keep up with someone.

2. Our MLB and anyone else who is going to bring pressure up the middle drop back into coverage when the QB starts his drop only to have him handoff and the RB picks up at least 5 yards on the draw before our linebacker can get to him.
I agree with #1 but #2, not so much. If a QB starts his drop, I expect everyone to start heading towards their zones, not attack the LOS in the event that it's a draw. Especially becomes a problem when the DTs are playing a 3 technique, because that inherently leaves the middle open. So there's really no fixing it unless you call a blitz up the middle, somebody is man on the runner (therefore not dropping back) or the MLB somehow knows that it's a run when the QB begins his drop.

[Farmer Ted]

especially at home... in most cases, a team that finishes negative in turnovers away has less than a 20% chance of winning (i think that is the figure that gibbs quoted after the philly game, which we won while being negative..)

the giants were -2.. which is really hard to overcome..

Well, we got 10 points off of two of their turnovers, but the third turnover didn't really hurt the Giants (the long pass by Eli in the 3d quarter). I think it came on a 2nd down, but it amounted to little more than a punt, and the Skins were inside their own 10 yard-line. Given the ineptitude of the offense, the third TO only delayed the inevitable by maybe two minutes.

I guess my point is that not all turnovers are created equally, and you need to keep that in mind before you say that team A turned the ball over 3X as much as team B (not directed at Shally, but at the original poster). If you're going to throw an INT, it's not so bad when it's on a long pass, and the defense doesn't get a return.

[bergiemoore]

I agree that the team who wins the turnover battle it usually wins. And the offense needs to come up with more points last week, but its undeniably that the defense was a major problem. And with Portis, Moss, ARE, Cooley---how many other weapons do they need?

It's not a question as to the number of weapons, but how Gibbs decides to use them. The Giants were in our offensive play book in the second half.

Williams decision to play Cover 2 was a disaster. You give Eli the middle of the field, and he'll torch you all day long.

The Skins lost that game because of coaching.

[shally]

Well, we got 10 points off of two of their turnovers, but the third turnover didn't really hurt the Giants (the long pass by Eli in the 3d quarter). I think it came on a 2nd down, but it amounted to little more than a punt, and the Skins were inside their own 10 yard-line. Given the ineptitude of the offense, the third TO only delayed the inevitable by maybe two minutes.

I guess my point is that not all turnovers are created equally, and you need to keep that in mind before you say that team A turned the ball over 3X as much as team B (not directed at Shally, but at the original poster). If you're going to throw an INT, it's not so bad when it's on a long pass, and the defense doesn't get a return.


i think what you are saying is intuitively correct but impossible to keep meaningful stats on.. how are you going to determine if an INT is a good one or a bad one ? is one where a team is leading by 25 points okay even if it leads to an opponents td ?

that is the kind of thing that can only be considered after the fact depending upon how the game ultimately turns out

how about a fumble or int that is picked up by an opponent who in turn fumbles himself and the team actually gains yardage in the exchange. is that a good turnover ?

i think we are headed for problems if turnovers are subcatagorized as either good or bad

[Farmer Ted]

Agreed; 9 times out of 10, TO's are going to be detrimental, but in this particular case (the INT in the 3d quarter), it didn't amount to much. Two minutes later, the gints had the ball back in almost the same field position when we went 3-and-out.

[shally]

It's not a question as to the number of weapons, but how Gibbs decides to use them. The Giants were in our offensive play book in the second half.

Williams decision to play Cover 2 was a disaster. You give Eli the middle of the field, and he'll torch you all day long.

The Skins lost that game because of coaching.


even more to the point. eli is exquisitely sensitive to pressure. get in his face and pressure him and he will throw off his back foot and put the ball up for grabs.. let him have all day and he can pick a defense apart.. that is no secret. williams knew it. williams ignored it.

moreover, there was a short comment at www.postgameheroes.com
indicating that we gave the defense a road map onthe final 2 plays.
perhaps they guessed right onthe 3rd down, but because the skins offense rushed to the line, the giants simply had to know that there was no time to change the play or bring in another one. it simply was going to be the same one again.
moreover they said that the secondary practiced stopping that play all week, so they were well prepared

you are correct. coaching was simply terrible. clock management was it's usual failure...

[BigCountry]

Everyone has criticized Williams' decisions in the 2nd half and I at least agree that we should have played a little more press but last time I checked, the cover 2 is designed to stop the opposition's passing game. I think alot of the blame should also go to the players, as their major requirment was to prevent the Giants from marching up and down the field and failed to do it. Williams should have recognized this, but I don't blame a coach who is ahead by 14 points for playing a scheme designed to stop the pass. It's not his faul the players are incapable of playing zone.

[redskin_rich]

Everyone has criticized Williams' decisions in the 2nd half and I at least agree that we should have played a little more press but last time I checked, the cover 2 is designed to stop the opposition's passing game. I think alot of the blame should also go to the players, as their major requirment was to prevent the Giants from marching up and down the field and failed to do it. Williams should have recognized this, but I don't blame a coach who is ahead by 14 points for playing a scheme designed to stop the pass. It's not his faul the players are incapable of playing zone.

Why didn't you just post this in the Gregg Williams thread?

Merging.

[shally]

Everyone has criticized Williams' decisions in the 2nd half and I at least agree that we should have played a little more press but last time I checked, the cover 2 is designed to stop the opposition's passing game. I think alot of the blame should also go to the players, as their major requirment was to prevent the Giants from marching up and down the field and failed to do it. Williams should have recognized this, but I don't blame a coach who is ahead by 14 points for playing a scheme designed to stop the pass. It's not his faul the players are incapable of playing zone.

difference being that when they play the tampa 2, the tampa corners are up and bumping the receivers at the line, not sitting back 10 yards

you cant bump anyone when you are sitting as far back as rogers is and it simply invites illegal contact penalties or short/medium conversions

and what has driven the tampa 2 is the fact that tampa's d line has always been capable of generating pass rush.. ours ? not so much

[akhhorus]

Everyone has criticized Williams' decisions in the 2nd half and I at least agree that we should have played a little more press but last time I checked, the cover 2 is designed to stop the opposition's passing game. I think alot of the blame should also go to the players, as their major requirment was to prevent the Giants from marching up and down the field and failed to do it. Williams should have recognized this, but I don't blame a coach who is ahead by 14 points for playing a scheme designed to stop the pass. It's not his faul the players are incapable of playing zone.

Yes, but three things:
1-Playing a C-2 against a top TE like Shockey is asinine. Thats asking for trouble.
2-After the first drive, it should have been clear that the C-2 wasn't stopping them at all. Especially in stark contrast to the defensive play in the 1st half with the C-3 and man-2-mans.
3-If Williams doesn't have the players to play the C-2 with any effectiveness, then why is he playing it with any consistency?

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Yes, but three things:
1-Playing a C-2 against a top TE like Shockey is asinine. Thats asking for trouble.
2-After the first drive, it should have been clear that the C-2 wasn't stopping them at all. Especially in stark contrast to the defensive play in the 1st half with the C-3 and man-2-mans.
3-If Williams doesn't have the players to play the C-2 with any effectiveness, then why is he playing it with any consistency?
Exactly. There's a reason the Cover 2 is also known as the Tampa 2. That's because the Buccaneers won a Super Bowl with it and had a dominating defense. They also had a DE, Rice, who was good for 13-14 sacks a season, and a DT, Sapp, who was good for just about the same number, and is heading straight to the HOF. They also had the best coverage WLB that I have ever seen in Brooks, who is also headed to the HOF.
I'm not saying you can't play it if you don't have a bunch of HOFers, but you sure as hell can't play it if you have a defensive line that is unable to create pressure and if you drop the CBs back 10 yards from the line of scrimmage on every play.

[shally]

Exactly. There's a reason the Cover 2 is also known as the Tampa 2. That's because the Buccaneers won a Super Bowl with it and had a dominating defense. They also had a DE, Rice, who was good for 13-14 sacks a season, and a DT, Sapp, who was good for just about the same number, and is heading straight to the HOF. They also had the best coverage WLB that I have ever seen in Brooks, who is also headed to the HOF.
I'm not saying you can't play it if you don't have a bunch of HOFers, but you sure as hell can't play it if you have a defensive line that is unable to create pressure and if you drop the CBs back 10 yards from the line of scrimmage on every play.

plus, they have had kelly and barber forever in this defense and added buchanon to the mix

after lynch left, the safeties have been changed over a lot, but the corners have been steady over the years

[BigCountry]

All this is true and it's clear as day that the C2 isn't working that well for us, Williams should have recognized it and didn't. BUT, does it only bother me that we can't do something as fundamental as play a zone defense? Think about it for a second. Our secondary is at its most vulnerable when we play a defense designed to stop the pass. I know it's not designed to shut the passing game down, but it is designed to limit offenses through the air and every time we go to it, the opposing offense flies down the field, and it always looks the same. Hook, dig or out routes with the defender getting the hit in 2 seconds after the ball arrives. Maybe I'm still a bit frustrated but it irks the hell out of me.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

All this is true and it's clear as day that the C2 isn't working that well for us, Williams should have recognized it and didn't. BUT, does it only bother me that we can't do something as fundamental as play a zone defense? Think about it for a second. Our secondary is at its most vulnerable when we play a defense designed to stop the pass. I know it's not designed to shut the passing game down, but it is designed to limit offenses through the air and every time we go to it, the opposing offense flies down the field, and it always looks the same. Hook, dig or out routes with the defender getting the hit in 2 seconds after the ball arrives. Maybe I'm still a bit frustrated but it irks the hell out of me.

You're giving way, way too much credit to the Cover 2. It's not a magical tool to stop the pass any more than the Cover 3, man-to-man, or an outside crash left blitz. It was a scheme designed to make the most out of a specific set of players, and it works very well with similar sets. Similarly, Gregg Williams had what I believe was a fantastic scheme to make the most out of the players he had in 2004 in 2005. Not only that, but I believe that scheme would be even better now. I believe it would produce a Top 5 defense. I believe it would be absolutely dominant.

Of course, that ultimately raises the question, "Well, you're just some football-obsessed college kid and he's an NFL defensive coordinator, don't you think he would have figured that out?" True, obviously, but we've seen him make the same mistake for more than a season now without figuring it out. None of us really knows why GW has become so obsessed with the Cover 2, but we do know that he continues to stubbornly call it even when it doesn't work. It's completely inexplicable.

[Moe]

You're giving way, way too much credit to the Cover 2. It's not a magical tool to stop the pass any more than the Cover 3, man-to-man, or an outside crash left blitz. It was a scheme designed to make the most out of a specific set of players, and it works very well with similar sets.

Not to mention the Cover-2 has been a Defense du jour for many, many years now and offenses have figured out many of the holes in it. As Ahk pointed out, a quality TE really undercuts its effectiveness and smart OC's have found the holes and can match that to a weakness of a given CB.

Just look at the struggles that Dungy ran into last year when Freeney was getting stoned and Sanders was out; that defense struggled mightily and was lucky to have the support of an elite offense.

As has been pointed ad nauseum, this team has many components that could make that scheme work, aside from the threat of pressure from the d-line with consistency. Bringing a blitz out of that scheme changes the whole deal and you had better collect on that gamble or you tend to get gashed, as we've seen.

[akhhorus]

All this is true and it's clear as day that the C2 isn't working that well for us, Williams should have recognized it and didn't. BUT, does it only bother me that we can't do something as fundamental as play a zone defense? Think about it for a second. Our secondary is at its most vulnerable when we play a defense designed to stop the pass. I know it's not designed to shut the passing game down, but it is designed to limit offenses through the air and every time we go to it, the opposing offense flies down the field, and it always looks the same. Hook, dig or out routes with the defender getting the hit in 2 seconds after the ball arrives. Maybe I'm still a bit frustrated but it irks the hell out of me.

Agreed, but the team can play the C-1 and flat press man2man pretty well. Which begs the question: Why is Williams insisting on playing a scheme the players obviously struggle with and not playing the schemes they are effective at?

[shally]

Agreed, but the team can play the C-1 and flat press man2man pretty well. Which begs the question: Why is Williams insisting on playing a scheme the players obviously struggle with and not playing the schemes they are effective at?

because he is a stubborn ****** "genius" and is going to force the issue
no matter what.. this is whether the d line is supposed to get pressure, or whether the corners are supposed to press.

he is an arrogant ***** !

[danny's stogie]

you must be under some misconception I have no problems with the offense. Please read my last VQ article, I slam it even more then the defense...But this is a defense thread.

I'm not online enough to keep tabs on which issue you've decided to champion. I see a huge thread excoriating GW, but nothing nearly as substantial about how inconsistent the offense has been. Despite this, the defense has been the better unit so far this season.

My point, and Keino's is, that we play this same piss poor cover 2 defense in Miami and Philly. The only reason it worked there is the Miami receivers dropped a ton of balls and McNabb had the accuracy of Mr Magoo.

If you are saying there is talent on the D and it is being misused...fine I agree wityh you. If you are saying that the only thing wrong with the D is the cover 2 is used too much....what is the point? Our contention is that GW uses the cover 2 almost exclusively when we are in a lead or if the game is close so since that is most of the time it has become our defacto base defense.

So basically you decided to argue with me about an issue, the over-use of cover-2, that I in my very first post in this thread said I had a problem with. So you take issue with something I agree with you about...strange, but ok. In your initial response you don't say the drops are making the cover-2 look better than it is, you reference the drops as an indictment of the entire defense. Either you changed your stance since then or you were unclear. Either way you were clearly trying to discredit an attempt to point out the positives that we've seen so far from the defense. Excuse me for taking a glass half full approach.

Saying the Defense is stellar save the cover 2 is like saying that Rosie O donnel is pretty save the weight problem, the ugly face, and annoying attitude.

Sorry, wrong answer. The correct analogy is Lindsay Lohan save the coke addiction. A fine looking young woman, but can't stay away from the nose candy.