White House Challenging Bill Calling Spade a Spade

[Biggie]

A proposed House resolution that would label as "genocide" the deaths of Armenians more than 90 years ago during the Ottoman Empire has won the support of a majority of House members, unleashing a lobbying blitz by the Bush administration and other opponents who say it would greatly harm relations with Turkey, a key ally in the Iraq war.

Halka (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/09/AR2007100902347.html?nav%3Dhcmodule&sub=AR)

In short, we now have to appease people who want to rewrite history because of our commitment in a certain country that shares a border with Turkey. Fantastic.

[akhhorus]

As much as Turkey did commit genocide, we're caught between a rock and a hard place here. The Armenians have a great lobbying organization in this country(and have decent constituencies in some big states) and the Turks are an important strategic partner(even before Iraq). They're very sensitive about the subject, but there are breaks in the facade they put up about it. I think its smarter policy to let this one go for now, and wait for the Turks to apologize on their own(which appears to be coming in the coming years).

[Spence]

It's a tough question. I don't think Iraq has anything to do with it -- that's just the White House trying to make everything a test case for their pet policy. Turkey is going to be very important to the U.S. long after we've finally admitted defeat in Iraq.

Morally, there is no case against supporting the Armenian genocide bill. Unfortunately, government is about more than just doing what feels good.

[shally]

As much as Turkey did commit genocide, we're caught between a rock and a hard place here. The Armenians have a great lobbying organization in this country(and have decent constituencies in some big states) and the Turks are an important strategic partner(even before Iraq). They're very sensitive about the subject, but there are breaks in the facade they put up about it. I think its smarter policy to let this one go for now, and wait for the Turks to apologize on their own(which appears to be coming in the coming years).

i totally agree..

why is this even coming up now ? it smells of political grandstanding and an effort to embarrass the administration (Lord knows they are more than capable of doing it all by themselves)

i could understand if there was some kind of UN resolution to provide the armenians with a sovereign homeland, but that is not the case.. this is simply needless provocation of an ally we need..

[Biggie]

Morally, there is no case against supporting the Armenian genocide bill. Unfortunately, government is about more than just doing what feels good.
So much for being the harbingers of "freedom and democracy". Cases like this are a good example of why a country, especially the U.S., shouldn't become the world's liberty police. We end up having to be hypocrites (like denying genocides are genocides) to protect our own strategic interests and look like jerks in the process.

[akhhorus]

So much for being the harbingers of "freedom and democracy". Cases like this are a good example of why a country, especially the U.S., shouldn't become the world's liberty police. We end up having to be hypocrites (like denying genocides are genocides) to protect our own strategic interests and look like jerks in the process.

Well, I don't see the correlation between not doing a non-binding resolution declaring it a genocide, and saying we're historical deniers here.

[Biggie]

Well, I don't see the correlation between not doing a non-binding resolution declaring it a genocide, and saying we're historical deniers here.
I don't know, I just find it odd when we're so outspoken about the "oppression of the Iraqi people" when mass murder a few hundred miles to the north doesn't really count because the people that did it let us keep nukes there.

That being said, it is a strange time to be bringing this up. Why weren't people talking about this in, you know, the 20's?

[akhhorus]

I don't know, I just find it odd when we're so outspoken about the "oppression of the Iraqi people" when mass murder a few hundred miles to the north doesn't really count because the people that did it let us keep nukes there.

Well, I think if we were actively changing history books, that would fall more into hypocrisy. Not doing some congressional resolution that doesn't do anything except poke our proverbial fingers in someone's eyes I don't think fall into us speaking out of both sides of our mouths. Why hasn't Congress condemned millions of other mass slaughters in the world since the foundation of the United States? As I think I said earlier, Turkey is slowly coming to grips with what they did as a people, and it seems more productive to just let them handle it themselves.

That being said, it is a strange time to be bringing this up. Why weren't people talking about this in, you know, the 20's?

Let me quote Hitler:

So habe ich, einstweilen nur im Osten, meine Totenkopfverbände bereitgestellt mit dem Befehl, unbarmherzig und mitleidslos Mann, Weib und Kind polnischer Abstammung und Sprache in den Tod zu schicken. Nur so gewinnen wir den Lebensraum, den wir brauchen. Wer redet heute noch von der Vernichtung der Armenier?

(translation)
Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?

[Spence]

So much for being the harbingers of "freedom and democracy". Cases like this are a good example of why a country, especially the U.S., shouldn't become the world's liberty police. We end up having to be hypocrites (like denying genocides are genocides) to protect our own strategic interests and look like jerks in the process.Biggie, we've never been harbingers of freedom and democracy in the Middle East. We've done some good work in Europe and Asia. We've done a bit of it in Latin America, but that's more than cancelled out by all the bad work we've done in Latin America. But our history in the Middle East has been one of appeasing the various tyrants who rule there and figuring which ones we can work with [the ones who want nothing to change] and which ones we cannot work with [the ones who want to change everything].

This freedom and democracy in the Middle East crap is something George W Bush had to glom on to after we turned up no WMD in Iraq. He didn't make the case for invading Iraq by insisting we had to spread democracy because he knew the American people would have laughed at him. Instead, he came up with a lot of nonsense about Iraq being tied to Al Qaeda and handing them tons of nuclear weapons so they could vaporize our cities. In the post-9/11 panic, enough people bought it -- much to the dismay of those of us who did not.

[Biggie]

Akh, I'd actually forgotten about that quote. Good point.

We've done a bit of it in Latin America

When?

[Spence]

Bush's views on this issue appear to have changed:The twentieth century was marred by wars of unimaginable brutality, mass murder and genocide. History records that the Armenians were the first people of the last century to have endured these cruelties. The Armenians were subjected to a genocidal campaign that defies comprehension and commands all decent people to remember and acknowledge the facts and lessons of an awful crime in a century of bloody crimes against humanity. If elected President, I would ensure that our nation properly recognizes the tragic suffering of the Armenian people.Source (http://www.anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid=60)

[CNYSkinFan]

Bush's views on this issue appear to have changed:Source (http://www.anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid=60)
Shocked....SHOCKED I tell you

[Biggie]

Bush's views on this issue appear to have changed:Source (http://www.anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid=60)
:imshock:

MIND-BLOWING!

[shally]

he doesnt seem to be able to remember much, does he ?

but, bush's position aside, it seems to be a gesture that is designed to inflame the turks.. the "realpolitik" of the situation is that we need the turks as allies.. what is the gesture designed to accomplish ?

[Spence]

Not good: Ankara is recalling its ambassador to Washington for consultations amid anger at a bill in Congress recognising the mass killing of Armenians as genocide.

The passing of the bill by a House committee on Wednesday despite appeals by the Bush administration was denounced by President Abdullah Gul.

Turkey accepts there were mass killings in 1915-17 but denies genocide.

Turkey's foreign ministry said the ambassador would return to Turkey for a stay of "a week or 10 days".Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7040366.stm)

[Biggie]

Not good:Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7040366.stm)
If this ends up torpedoing U.S.-Turkish relations, maybe the Armenians could let us base there (assuming the Turks don't revoke access to their airspace)?

[PyroGenic]

cnn says that turkey is ready to go into one of the more peaceful areas of iraq and says that it has just as much right to be there as the US, especially since we came from 10,000 kilometers away or some other nonsense.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/12/turkey.kurds.ap/index.html

I don't get how how they're cool with admitting that they killed 1.5 million Armenians but are against it being labeled as genocide. They did what they did and should take responsibility for it.

[Spence]

I don't get how how they're cool with admitting that they killed 1.5 million Armenians but are against it being labeled as genocide. They did what they did and should take responsibility for it.They should, but it is not human nature.

If they were smart, they'd shrug their shoulders and then pass a resolution condemning the U.S. government for genocide against the North American aboriginal population. Give us a taste of our own medicine and then get back to business. Turkey and the U.S. need each other.

[PyroGenic]

They should, but it is not human nature.

If they were smart, they'd shrug their shoulders and then pass a resolution condemning the U.S. government for genocide against the North American aboriginal population. Give us a taste of our own medicine and then get back to business. Turkey and the U.S. need each other.

wouldn't that be a more english/spain thing? what with the small pox and all that

I bet they don't like it cause it gets them bunched in with what everybody thinks of when they hear genocide: evil werewolves of the ss... or something like that.

[Spence]

wouldn't that be a more english/spain thing? what with the small pox and all thatThe Spanish and Portuguese did it first. The English did it second. We did it third. We might not have been first to the party, but we got our licks in.

[fent]

to put into perspective how the Turks can react, France made it a crime for a Turk to say he doesn't believe that the genocide happened. in response, not a single French aircraft has flown in or over Turkey since and French products are no longer sold in the country.

[CNYSkinFan]

to put into perspective how the Turks can react, France made it a crime for a Turk to say he doesn't believe that the genocide happened. in response, not a single French aircraft has flown in or over Turkey since and French products are no longer sold in the country.
I thought that was because of Bill O'Reilly's war on France :)

[fent]

I thought that was because of Bill O'Reilly's war on France :)
O'Reilly's a Turk?

[akhhorus]

O'Reilly's a Turk?

Based on that lawsuit, sure sounds like it ;)

[Spence]

What's all this about? (http://z.about.com/d/mideastfood/1/7/5/-/-/-/falafel.jpg)

[CNYSkinFan]

Based on that lawsuit, sure sounds like it ;)
I would bet O'Reilly has some Turk blood iun him somewhere...it sounds true to me.

[dukeuch]

to put into perspective how the Turks can react, France made it a crime for a Turk to say he doesn't believe that the genocide happened. in response, not a single French aircraft has flown in or over Turkey since and French products are no longer sold in the country.

I don't see how the resolution and Frances making free speech a crime are in any way comparable. Are we really so impotent that we cannot deal with an ally who surely understands the difference between a congressional resolution and American policy?

[shally]

I don't see how the resolution and Frances making free speech a crime are in any way comparable. Are we really so impotent that we cannot deal with an ally who surely understands the difference between a congressional resolution and American policy?

it is not that, so much as the restive portions of their populations seeing the resolution as validation, potentially, of uprising against the turks..

we have done much the same with the iranis, encouraging them to overthrow their government. i think it would potentially viewed by the turks in the same light as if their legislature had passed a resolution condemning the US for the genocide against native americans. true, but an inflammatory response..

[lakewinola]

Along the same lines, W plans on angering the Chinese by honoring the Dalai Lama.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071016/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_dalai_lama

[RedskinsDave]

Along the same lines, W plans on angering the Chinese by honoring the Dalai Lama.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071016/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_dalai_lama

That's along the same lines?

[fent]

Along the same lines, W plans on angering the Chinese by honoring the Dalai Lama.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071016/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_dalai_lama

poking our fingers in the eye of an ally with no real reason to do so and pissing off a country for honoring a guy who represents a religious group they don't agree with aren't exactly on the same plane. and as much as you want this to be Bush's fault, it's a congressional gold medal...you know...passed by the Democratic congress. Bush just happens to be attending.

edit: the original bill was introduced by Sen. Feinstein last year and passed the Congress unanimously and the authorization of the use of the rotunda was passed unanimously this fall, so both parties had a hand in setting this up.