Can't Blame the Coaches (And Other Post Game Thoughts: include Moss quitting thread)

[JoeDaSchmoe]

For all my kvetching about the four-man rush, the soft zone, and all that, the defense worked perfectly. Sean Taylor really should have had five INTs, but he looked god-like back there. We forced Favre into mistakes and the Pack into punts time after time after time, above and beyond the call of duty.

On offense... I'm sorry, but anyone who blames Saunders or Gibbs for this must have been watching ESPN Gamecast. I have never, ever, ever seen a set of players play worse than what I saw today. Especially Santana. Jason Campbell was literally all by himself out there by the fourth quarter, playing like a great NFL quarterback while his line failed to block, his receivers failed to catch, and his backs failed to run. This was the most pure form of the phrase "lack of execution" that has ever hit a football field. Absolutely vomit-inducing.

I'm as frustrated with the players right now as I was with the coaches after the Giants loss. The roles have flipped. This one's on the guys wearing the pads.

[WisconsinRedskins]

Sure, we didn't win the game, but we certainly learned some things about our team. Campbell is an absolute beast. He played a great game, made some great throws, some great decisions, and had it not been for his WRs dropping everything, he would've had another 100+ QB rating game. Cooley is still great, and Sean Taylor played one of the best games of his career. Sure, our O-line is decimated, and Portis and Moss are shadows of their '05 selves, but we lost by 3 to what is supposedly the second best team in the NFC (they're actually quite bad) with no O-line and the case of the drops.

Defense had an great performance as a whole. Don't despair guys.

[rskinsfan10]

They can be blamed for awful clock management, which for whatever reason quite simply cannot or will not be addressed by the coaches themselves. You call a timeout on 3rd down, and you waste another one on 4th down? You should have had two plays ready to go under the circumstance that you knew it was two down territory. then to not take a TO before the 2min warning was assinine.

I agree with you that the players had more to do with today's loss, but the leaders of this team absolutely suck when it comes to this one crucial element, and after almost four years, there isn't any siogn of improvement.

[InsomniaKiller]

No despair here. I liked the playcalling in this game and the defense looked great. I just can't believe Moss had the game he did today.

I vented in my living room and screamed about how disgusting the whole thing was to watch and now I'll just try to be happy with 3-2, watch Dallas get stomped into the ground, and keep it positive.

[SkinsKY]

Unfortunately there's no category for lessons learned that helps us make the playoffs. It's, quite unfortunately, a common type of loss for us.

[suppitty]

You would be happy with this result, Wisco-man.

No such thing as a good loss.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Yes, I'll grant you that. The clock moment has been terrible under Gibbs and I see no reason to believe that it will ever improve. However, I honestly don't believe it would have made any difference today. If we had started with two minutes instead of one left on that final drive, the outcome would have been the same.

[Carmelo]

For all my kvetching about the four-man rush, the soft zone, and all that, the defense worked perfectly. Sean Taylor really should have had five INTs, but he looked god-like back there. We forced Favre into mistakes and the Pack into punts time after time after time, above and beyond the call of duty.

On offense... I'm sorry, but anyone who blames Saunders or Gibbs for this must have been watching ESPN Gamecast. I have never, ever, ever seen a set of players play worse than what I saw today. Especially Santana. Jason Campbell was literally all by himself out there by the fourth quarter, playing like a great NFL quarterback while his line failed to block, his receivers failed to catch, and his backs failed to run. This was the most pure form of the phrase "lack of execution" that has ever hit a football field. Absolutely vomit-inducing.

I'm as frustrated with the players right now as I was with the coaches after the Giants loss. The roles have flipped. This one's on the guys wearing the pads.
I totally agree Joe. This was disgusting watching our STAR players self distruct and cost us that game. The only questionable coaching decision I really saw was not calling the time out before the two minute warning but that was nothing compared to what the players did to themselves today.

My question is, where in the world is Santana's head these last few weeks? Did last year get to him? I've been waiting for him to step up and all we get each week is a Santana that looks distracted and not in the game at all.

You said it Joe, Cambell was by himself out there today and that sucks because we could have one this game easy.

The only consolation I have is that watching this game, I can see that if we get our stuff together and get all our players heads in the game, we can do some things this season.

I hope our oline can pull together and be healthy and I hope Santana and Portis can get their heads in the game.

ps. It made me upset to see B Loyd smiling after letting a catchable ball slide through his hands on a long throw.

[rskinsfan10]

Moral victories do nothing for me personally, especially when they come after losing to a team that we clearly were better then on the field.

[CNYSkinFan]

your on crack...lol (just kidding)

I am never happy with a loss, espescially in conference when we are leading at halftime and we have massive injuries during the game.

This is a wprse loss then the Giants one, 2 losses in conference against playoff teams is not how the first 3rd of the season should end.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Is this thread sarcastic?

I's gotta be sarcastic.

It is right?

[lakeskin]

:rolleyes: Yeah I'm always happy when the Redskins lose.............................................. ..............................................

[PennSkinsFan]

Nah, overall, coaches have no blame here. Payers do. We dropped 6 passes and at least three picks. Santana Moss single handidly blew this game. No fumble there, we win, point blank. Overall, it was another tale of two halves, this time not for the good. Looks liek GB made adjustments and took Cooley out of the game, no one elsle stepped up.

Personally, would like to see more passes to McCardell as well.

[WinnpegSkinsFan]

Defense played great today. Total lack of execution by the offense. I suggest remedial practice for Moss & Portis, although it is hard to run the ball with our banged up Oline. Taylor is a beast, he is now a top tier safety. Campbell played well to but got no help except from Cooley and amybe McCardell. I thought his signing was a waste - I was never more wrong.

[Redskin-4-life]

Moral victories do nothing for me personally, especially when they come after losing to a team that we clearly were better then on the field.

I agree,
Defense played lights out, but our star players let us down today. Now they should see the importance of practice.

[shally]

at this point we are a long way from being a playoff caliber team

the defense is not good enough to compensate for an offense that veers between sputtering to providing points for the other team

[shally]

For all my kvetching about the four-man rush, the soft zone, and all that, the defense worked perfectly. Sean Taylor really should have had five INTs, but he looked god-like back there. We forced Favre into mistakes and the Pack into punts time after time after time, above and beyond the call of duty.

On offense... I'm sorry, but anyone who blames Saunders or Gibbs for this must have been watching ESPN Gamecast. I have never, ever, ever seen a set of players play worse than what I saw today. Especially Santana. Jason Campbell was literally all by himself out there by the fourth quarter, playing like a great NFL quarterback while his line failed to block, his receivers failed to catch, and his backs failed to run. This was the most pure form of the phrase "lack of execution" that has ever hit a football field. Absolutely vomit-inducing.

I'm as frustrated with the players right now as I was with the coaches after the Giants loss. The roles have flipped. This one's on the guys wearing the pads.

sorry, but the playcalling was terrible.. too many cute, long developing plays.. none of them worked

[wewantdallas]

I admire the positivity, but I can't come over to the light side right now. Probably because I've just seen and read this script WAAYYYY too many times now.

Yes, Jason is maturing and did well today with little help ... but...the fact is, we lost yet another game that we should have won by more than a touchdown. We gave another one away. We were disgraceful today AS A TEAM. I take nothing positive out of these meaningless moral victories anymore. There's only one that matters and it's beneath the "W".

[CNYSkinFan]

The players are to blame for this loss by far. 7 or 8 drops, fumbles, and an INT that should have never happened...

BUT

The clock management is horrible still, and offensive gamecalling in crucial situations is still bad. The reverse to Santana the the flat pass to Betts where horrible calls

I will give credit tonthe defense for the second straight week coming up with a great gameplan.

[WisconsinRedskins]

I'm normally disgusted by the positivity after a loss here, but there's no way this was as heartbreaking as the Giants loss. We played well and a got a lot of unlucky breaks and bounces. We'll be back. The NFC is just so bad, we'll be fine.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

sorry, but the playcalling was terrible.. too many cute, long developing plays.. none of them worked
I don't agree shally. There were at least two long pass plays that worked perfectly, but one was dropped by Moss, and on the other, Lloyd was a bit overthrown.

[shally]

I admire the positivity, but I can't come over to the light side right now. Probably because I've just seen and read this script WAAYYYY too many times now.

Yes, Jason is maturing and did well today with little help ... but...the fact is, we lost yet another game that we should have won by more than a touchdown. We gave another one away. We were disgraceful today AS A TEAM. I take nothing positive out of these meaningless moral victories anymore. There's only one that matters and it's beneath the "W".

some of the sacks were on him because he took too long.. and some of his throws were off... still he played well enough for the team to have won.. this is not on him

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

i agree, with the exception of a few play calls on 3rd down and the clock management at the end of the game. that was pretty ridiculous, but the players definitely need to hold themselves accountable for the mistakes today. drops, fumbles, penalties.....ugh.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

The players are to blame for this loss by far. 7 or 8 drops, fumbles, and an INT that should have never happened...

BUT

The clock management is horrible still, and offensive gamecalling in crucial situations is still bad. The reverse to Santana the the flat pass to Betts where horrible calls

I will give credit tonthe defense for the second straight week coming up with a great gameplan.
This is pretty much my opinion also.

Clock management is a lost cause by now. We just have to accept the fact that the people responsible (mainly Gibbs) aren't capable of handling such a task.
But today, the star players on offense were just horrible, Cooley (and JC) aside.

[NCskinsfanatic]

I agree with Joe also, the clock management isnt what lost it for us, that is still an area of concern yes but the PLAYERs lost this game. No one was complaining about Saunders in the first half and I cant understand why no one seems to understand that the interior running game was done as soon as the OL injuries hit , especially Rabach. He calls the plays for the OL, Fabini played the second half hurt, the radio said he was doubled over on the sidelines. Jacoby, sonny, Sam, etc., etc. not one person has blamed the loss on cutesy playcalling, Saunders or coaching but injuries to the OL and the failed execution are the consensus reason we lost.

[shally]

This is pretty much my opinion also.

Clock management is a lost cause by now. We just have to accept the fact that the people responsible (mainly Gibbs) aren't capable of handling such a task.
But today, the star players on offense were just horrible, Cooley (and JC) aside.

that about sums it up

[GibbsFan]

I'm disgusted with this loss. Our play makers are making plays for the opponents. Yeah, the D played good, but we gave this game away. Campbell had a very good game but it was not enough because we just handed the ball back over. The Packers are not the 2nd best team in the NFC, and we are no where close to what we need to be.

[frankez99]

Coaches coach....players play.

Coaches didn't drop 6 passes and fumble twice.

Players didn't call for that STUPID reverse and call for a half yard pass pattern on 4th and 1.

The whole organization had a hand in this MESS.

[InsomniaKiller]

Right, I'm definitely not "happy with the result." I'm just not ready to throw in the towel and think there is a lot of potential with this team. We're 3-2 and I'm not delighted since I know we could easily be 5-0 but, hell, we're 3-2. That's not so bad in and of itself.

No moral victories or any of that, just taking it for what it is.

There are a lot of games left for us to win this year. Just trying to remain optimistic that we'll turn out just fine, and I don't think that's unrealistic at this point.

[hail2skins]

This game does fall on the players. As for the playcalling, we'll have to live with Saunders. Sometimes he's genius and other times he's an idiot. Rock gives you good field position and you run a reverse. Teams are ready for that especially after you keep faking it. The running game was working as well, why abandon it. There are no excuses for the drop balls, not whatsoever but this loss is on the players.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

there is no way we can be happy with the result, but there were some positives, but thats not making me feel any better right now.

[Lavar703]

at this point we are a long way from being a playoff caliber team

the defense is not good enough to compensate for an offense that veers between sputtering to providing points for the other team

Playoffs, Playoffs, your talking bout' playoffs....

[OCSKINSFAN]

A moral victory, if there is such a thing, is probably only when you play well, but lose a close game to a much superior opponent you had no chance of beating. This game, which the team (really the offense) and coaches blew, against a team the Redskins should have beat easily, hardly qualifies.

[Lavar703]

A moral victory, if there is such a thing, is probably only when you play well, but lose a close game to a much superior opponent you had no chance of beating. This game, which the team (really the offense) and coaches blew, against a team the Redskins should have beat easily, hardly qualifies.

exactly, no moral victory here, just an average offense getting exposed

[CNYSkinFan]

A moral victory, if there is such a thing, is probably only when you play well, but lose a close game to a much superior opponent you had no chance of beating. This game, which the team (really the offense) and coaches blew, against a team the Redskins should have beat easily, hardly qualifies.
Amen. That is the truth right there. This is not a moral victory. A moral victory is playing close witht he pasts but losing. This was anoter choke when leading at halftime...not great IMO

[CNYSkinFan]

Right, I'm definitely not "happy with the result." I'm just not ready to throw in the towel and think there is a lot of potential with this team. We're 3-2 and I'm not delighted since I know we could easily be 5-0 but, hell, we're 3-2. That's not so bad in and of itself.

No moral victories or any of that, just taking it for what it is.

There are a lot of games left for us to win this year. Just trying to remain optimistic that we'll turn out just fine, and I don't think that's unrealistic at this point.

Add music to this and it could be a theme song of the Gibbs II Redskins. I am tired of it.

[guess88]

I can't put too much blame on Portis... he barely had any holes to run through. Moss on the other hand... and everyone else who had the case of the drops...

[RedskinsDave]

Moral victories do nothing for me personally, especially when they come after losing to a team that we clearly were better then on the field.

Exactly. Finding new ways to lose is never something I can take away anything positive from.

[shally]

This game does fall on the players. As for the playcalling, we'll have to live with Saunders. Sometimes he's genius and other times he's an idiot. Rock gives you good field position and you run a reverse. Teams are ready for that especially after you keep faking it. The running game was working as well, why abandon it. There are no excuses for the drop balls, not whatsoever but this loss is on the players.

agree.. he still has too many plays that are too "cute" and take long to develop

where i do blame him is when it comes down to a play that you have to make to stay in the game, why call a route that causes the back to flatten out rather than go up field ? unless betts simply ran th wrong route on 4th down ??

[Carmelo]

This game does fall on the players. As for the playcalling, we'll have to live with Saunders. Sometimes he's genius and other times he's an idiot. Rock gives you good field position and you run a reverse. Teams are ready for that especially after you keep faking it. The running game was working as well, why abandon it. There are no excuses for the drop balls, not whatsoever but this loss is on the players.
That's my thing. You shoot yourself in the foot and defeat the purpose by running so many fake reverses. You'd think that after so many fake reverses, the defenses are waiting for the real ones.

Not only did our players lose this one, our star players lost it and that's what's most upsetting. If Yoder would have lost us the game, I'd be pissed but not as pissed as if... say... Clinton and Moss BOTH put balls on the ground.

[smoak]

I shouldn't post after a loss, but I am sick and tired of this group of players. They have ZERO heart. Its one thing to lose, but it is anopther to be a bunch of over paid **explitive** loser. Portis, Moss and the whole crew can be gone next year for all I care.

We'll see how they respond next week in a MUST win game.

[shally]

I can't put too much blame on Portis... he barely had any holes to run through. Moss on the other hand... and everyone else who had the case of the drops...

no. he gets no pass. run it for no gain. but dont put the ball on the ground. that is happening far too often to him

[shally]

I shouldn't post after a loss, but I am sick and tired of this group of players. They have ZERO heart. Its one thing to lose, but it is anopther to be a bunch of over paid **explitive** loser. Portis, Moss and the whole crew can be gone next year for all I care.

We'll see how they respond next week in a MUST win game.

i expect the defense will show up.. the cards have an even better offense than the pack because they can run the ball

nothing this team does this year will surprise me

[Lavar703]

no. he gets no pass. run it for no gain. but dont put the ball on the ground. that is happening far too often to him

No pass for Portis, he fumbled and the way he holds the ball is crazy, like hes carrying a loaf of bread

[hail2skins]

I shouldn't post after a loss, but I am sick and tired of this group of players. They have ZERO heart. Its one thing to lose, but it is anopther to be a bunch of over paid **explitive** loser. Portis, Moss and the whole crew can be gone next year for all I care.

We'll see how they respond next week in a MUST win game.I'd say that's a bit of over reaction and I know how you are so I'll let this one go Smoak.

[smoak]

That's my thing. You shoot yourself in the foot and defeat the purpose by running so many fake reverses. You'd think that after so many fake reverses, the defenses are waiting for the real ones.

Not only did our players lose this one, our star players lost it and that's what's most upsetting. If Yoder would have lost us the game, I'd be pissed but not as pissed as if... say... Clinton and Moss BOTH put balls on the ground.

Moss hasn't done jack all season and while I love the guy, its time to get a player who can get on the field and stay there (health wise). I leterally think hes had more drops than completion this season, and it is frustrating b/c I believe that Moss is a top 5 WR in the league today. He is underachieving. Period.

And as for Portis, I've never seen a player so tough one minute look so soft the next.

Betts has done diddly.

We're losing offensive linemen faster than Brittney Spears misplaces her babies. Ugh.

This offseason the offense needs ~3 new linemen, ~2 new WRs, 1 new TE. At least. I'm sick of starting over.... These players are goof enough to win the NFC and they just don't seem to want it.

[Lavar703]

You cant excuse the coaches either, the playcalling in short down situations was horrendous, not giving Sellers the ball at all in those situations is on the coaching staff. The reverse is awful, it never works for this team, never.

[akhhorus]

This game does fall on the players. As for the playcalling, we'll have to live with Saunders. Sometimes he's genius and other times he's an idiot. Rock gives you good field position and you run a reverse. Teams are ready for that especially after you keep faking it. The running game was working as well, why abandon it. There are no excuses for the drop balls, not whatsoever but this loss is on the players.

Yeah, but that reverse wasn't a bad call(the Pack were overpursuing all day), Moss just played a TERRIBLE game across the board. He cost us a good 13 points swing. I thought Saunders called a decent game, but the execution was beyond lousy.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Yeah, but that reverse wasn't a bad call(the Pack were overpursuing all day), Moss just played a TERRIBLE game across the board. He cost us a good 13 points swing. I thought Saunders called a decent game, but the execution was beyond lousy.
I pretty much agree, aside from a few runs on 3rd and short that took WAY to long to develop.

[Carmelo]

Moss hasn't done jack all season and while I love the guy, its time to get a player who can get on the field and stay there (health wise). I leterally think hes had more drops than completion this season, and it is frustrating b/c I believe that Moss is a top 5 WR in the league today. He is underachieving. Period.

And as for Portis, I've never seen a player so tough one minute look so soft the next.

Betts has done diddly.

We're losing offensive linemen faster than Brittney Spears misplaces her babies. Ugh.

This offseason the offense needs ~3 new linemen, ~2 new WRs, 1 new TE. At least. I'm sick of starting over.... These players are goof enough to win the NFC and they just don't seem to want it.
It seems like just concentration on the ball to me. No concentration when catching, no concentration when running... no concentration on the ball at all. It seems like everyone is still thinking about something else and no one is paying any attention to the game at all. They just didn't want it.

[frankez99]

i expect the defense will show up.. the cards have an even better offense than the pack because they can run the ball

nothing this team does this year will surprise me

Kurt Warner is hurt and out of the Cards game right now....so we may be facing Rattay.

Will it matter, who knows.....

One thing though....during a pre-game bit on FOX, CP was talking about the large time commitment JC shows during game week. When asked how much time he puts in, he said (sarcastically) "about 9 hours....that is all I have to do per my contract....." or something of the like. I'm sure he was kidding around...but CP seems too "comfortable", if you catch my drift. He's paid like a top tier RB and he is nowhere NEAR top tier. Top tiers don't fumble every five minutes...or need oxygen after a 10 yard gain. I'm still with CP, but he has been lowered off my pedestal.

Santana Moss looks flat out disinterested.:sleeping:

[wewantdallas]

You cant excuse the coaches either, the playcalling in short down situations was horrendous, not giving Sellers the ball at all in those situations is on the coaching staff. The reverse is awful, it never works for this team, never.

Not only that, but those wide runs that Saunders always calls in short yardage. I have seen that play work maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 times (at least it seems that way). Of course, we got stuffed on all of them today at critical times.

BUT....the call for the bomb to Lloyd that Jason overthrew? Genius. If the play had been executed, not only would it have won the game, but it could've even brought Lloyd out of his shell.

These types of games just sicken me beyond belief. I'd rather get blown out than lose like this.

[smoak]

I'd say that's a bit of over reaction and I know how you are so I'll let this one go Smoak.

Oh, I mean it. This team is EASILY one of the best rosters in the NFC. Go position by position and you'll be pressed to find a much better team. dallass is playing great so you have to give them the nod, but then who else? We consistently beat ourselves and I'm sick of it. It doesn't mean I don't love the Redskins it just means I am tired of the bull. We gave this game away again just like we gave away the Giants game. I give no credit to our opponents out there b/c we're dropping passes (or worse, popping them up in the air for easy INTs), dropping picks, fumbling, missing blocks, etc.

Next week is a must win game and I'll bring the same enthuisiasm I always bring, but this team really has me :bangdesk:.

[Lavar703]

Not only that, but those wide runs that Saunders always calls in short yardage. I have seen that play work maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 times (at least it seems that way). Of course, we got stuffed on all of them today at critical times.

BUT....the call for the bomb to Lloyd that Jason overthrew? Genius. If the play had been executed, not only would it have won the game, but it could've even brought Lloyd out of his shell.

These types of games just sicken me beyond belief. I'd rather get blown out than lose like this.

Absolutely, the bomb to Lloud in that situation was genius, but Campbell just cant hit the deep ball for some reason

[hail2skins]

Is this a wolf in sheep's clothing?

There's no way I feel good about a loss when we should have won. There's no way I feel good about a loss when we are blown away. There's just no feeling good after a loss.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Not only that, but those wide runs that Saunders always calls in short yardage. I have seen that play work maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 times (at least it seems that way). Of course, we got stuffed on all of them today at critical times.

BUT....the call for the bomb to Lloyd that Jason overthrew? Genius. If the play had been executed, not only would it have won the game, but it could've even brought Lloyd out of his shell.

These types of games just sicken me beyond belief. I'd rather get blown out than lose like this.
Agree on both counts.

[smoak]

It seems like just concentration on the ball to me. No concentration when catching, no concentration when running... no concentration on the ball at all. It seems like everyone is still thinking about something else and no one is paying any attention to the game at all. They just didn't want it.

I completely agree and the frustrating thing is that JC looks like he has the potential to be the best QB I have ever seen in the burgundy and gold, but nobody is helping out. This was a chance to make a statement and the team from top to bottom c ertainly did just that. We had the Packers dead and buried and gave the game away. If I were a Pack fan, my game balls would be:

Moss
Portis
Saunders/Gibbs
and then Woodson and someone else on their D.

Oh and Brandon Lloyd with your little dance after a catch short of the first down on third you can rot (we ended up getting the FD on a penalty, but still). You sir are the single biggest disgrace to ever wear the burgundy and gold (at least in my lifetime).

[FunBunch5]

I totally agree Joe. This was disgusting watching our STAR players self distruct and cost us that game. The only questionable coaching decision I really saw was not calling the time out before the two minute warning but that was nothing compared to what the players did to themselves today.

My question is, where in the world is Santana's head these last few weeks? Did last year get to him? I've been waiting for him to step up and all we get each week is a Santana that looks distracted and not in the game at all.

You said it Joe, Cambell was by himself out there today and that sucks because we could have one this game easy.

The only consolation I have is that watching this game, I can see that if we get our stuff together and get all our players heads in the game, we can do some things this season.

I hope our oline can pull together and be healthy and I hope Santana and Portis can get their heads in the game.

ps. It made me upset to see B Loyd smiling after letting a catchable ball slide through his hands on a long throw.

There is a lot of B.Lloyd bashing, but I don't think we can put that one on him. Yeah he was smiling but he did everything he could to get that ball. I was frustrated, because it seems like once a game Campbell is missing wide open receivers on bombs that would be easy touchdowns.

[smoak]

Absolutely, the bomb to Lloud in that situation was genius, but Campbell just cant hit the deep ball for some reason

I dunno I saw a LOT of balls that hit WRs in the hands. Would they have been amazing catches? Sure, but I personally would apologize to my QB if I got one hand on the ball and didn't reel it in let alone two. Sometimes you have to have an attitude out there and not play like you just don't give a damn. Take pride and show up.

Ugh. I'm going to play with my kid and forget the opportunity that we just gave away.

[redwolf1218]

both true....dropped balls, and missed wide open TD's. that combination is not deserving of winning.

[smoak]

Yeah, but that reverse wasn't a bad call(the Pack were overpursuing all day), Moss just played a TERRIBLE game across the board. He cost us a good 13 points swing. I thought Saunders called a decent game, but the execution was beyond lousy.

Eh. The reverse IMO is a bad call when have a chance to run straight ahead and play real football. Instead, on a rainy day, you give it to a WR whose had the drops all day??? Sometimes you need to grab players by the facemask and get them to understand what needs to happen rather than be "cute". The reverse was too "cute" for my tastes.

[akhhorus]

Eh. The reverse IMO is a bad call when have a chance to run straight ahead and play real football. Instead, on a rainy day, you give it to a WR whose had the drops all day??? Sometimes you need to grab players by the facemask and get them to understand what needs to happen rather than be "cute". The reverse was too "cute" for my tastes.

PLaying a fast defense who was keying on Portis, running a reverse might be "cute", but its good coaching. Even if its a short gain, they won't overpursue as much as they have.

[smoak]

Moral victories do nothing for me personally, especially when they come after losing to a team that we clearly were better then on the field.

EXACTLY. As much as I dislike Dan Snyder, I wouldn't blame him if he made the players and coaching staff find their own way home today. Inexusable and I see no silver cloud here whatsover. For all its faults, the biggest thing that irks me with the Gibbs 2.0 Redskins is that they find ways to beat themselves.

[Carmelo]

Oh, I mean it. This team is EASILY one of the best rosters in the NFC. Go position by position and you'll be pressed to find a much better team. dallass is playing great so you have to give them the nod, but then who else? We consistently beat ourselves and I'm sick of it. It doesn't mean I don't love the Redskins it just means I am tired of the bull. We gave this game away again just like we gave away the Giants game. I give no credit to our opponents out there b/c we're dropping passes (or worse, popping them up in the air for easy INTs), dropping picks, fumbling, missing blocks, etc.

Next week is a must win game and I'll bring the same enthuisiasm I always bring, but this team really has me :bangdesk:.
But it has to give you a little hope, considering that if we ever decide to concentrate and stop kicking ourselves in the but, we can be a dominant, great team. Games like today and the Giants are hugely frustrating but knowing that our only two losses are games where we beat ourselves lets me know that if we decide to stop kicking our own butt, we can do some things.
I completely agree and the frustrating thing is that JC looks like he has the potential to be the best QB I have ever seen in the burgundy and gold, but nobody is helping out. This was a chance to make a statement and the team from top to bottom c ertainly did just that. We had the Packers dead and buried and gave the game away. If I were a Pack fan, my game balls would be:

Moss
Portis
Saunders/Gibbs
and then Woodson and someone else on their D.

Oh and Brandon Lloyd with your little dance after a catch short of the first down on third you can rot (we ended up getting the FD on a penalty, but still). You sir are the single biggest disgrace to ever wear the burgundy and gold (at least in my lifetime).

Brandon upset me greatly when he simply smiled after that deep ball that was missed. Yeah the ball was slightly ahead of him but he got two hands on it and he should have either caught it, or got up determined to catch the next one and not smiling like he's playing on a pop warner team and this is all for fun.

You're right, Pack game balls definitely go to Moss and Portis.

I think JC showed more than just potential during this game -and the last few for that matter. JC showed that he is a damned good QB. He's just going to get better. He showed great things and if he ever gets some help in these games by more than one player at a time, he'll be deadly. You are right though; it is a crying shame to see so much promise from the guy we were most concerned about to get abused by the guys we're supposed to trust.

[Dept_of_Defense]

Our defense did not play well today. Sure, Taylor had 2 INT's today, but he could've had 5. Penalties, dropped passes, injuries........this is going to be a major challenge rebuilding from this loss. I'm sick of our gameplan stalling @ halftime. We need to finish off opponents and keep the momentum on our side by NOT turning it over. Now I'm not going to be able to sleep or eat until Wednesday.

[Carmelo]

PLaying a fast defense who was keying on Portis, running a reverse might be "cute", but its good coaching. Even if its a short gain, they won't overpursue as much as they have.
but wouldn't the fake reverses we've already been running all day do the job of keeping the overpursing defense honsest?

As much as I would have like them to just pound it, I don't mind the reverse so much... it's what happened during that reverse that upsets me the most.

[akhhorus]

but wouldn't the fake reverses we've already been running all day do the job of keeping the overpursing defense honsest?

As much as I would have like them to just pound it, I don't mind the reverse so much... it's what happened during that reverse that upsets me the most.

We did do that, and they didn't change.

[Apache]

The only positive here is that the D is becoming more consistant at being able to change things around and give us hope that we can make a pick or hold a 3 and out which is something we've been missing. Shawn Taylor needs help in knowing what to do after the catch because we lost yardage on that toss back when he's big and strong enough to run straight forward and drag a few people to gain more yards but, I am proud of his abilities overall. JC is starting to show signs of smart decision making abilities and being consistant which we've lacked. I would have liked to see Betts in a little more just to keep their D guessing but, then again Betts is a N/S runner too and I think that's why we kept running laterally so maybe it wouldn't have helped. Sellers wasn't a big part of todays game either after his stellar performance last week. I think we should have went for a tie and kicked a field goal if JC wasn't going to throw past the 1st down marker so that was a sucky call and to burn 2 time outs. Our superstars let us down indeed today. I'm sure it was wet but, there's no excuse for some of those dropped balls of course GB had their share too. I think it's time to dig out the sprinkler system for practice this week to learn how to catch and hold a wet ball. Turnovers happen but, these were easy one's to protect and should have been avoidable. I can tell you who my worst player of the week is and that's Santana Moss. (did he catch anything that came his way this week?) Hopefully next week we'll be back. We certainly beat ourselves this week.

[jaylen]

Can't quibble with the coaches all that much at all.

The few issues I have with the coaches is the evaluation of hurt players. We gotta do a better job of determining who can really play at a high enough level to help the team. Its clear to me that with the weather how it was that guys with lower leg problems were a hindrance today.

And our execution in the big moments is dreadful, why Gibbs doesn't do a better job anticipating circumstances and forcing us to burn to's and look just unorganized and jittery has got to change soon. Gibbs should just let Saunders call it and discuss after the game.

The pass from JC to Betts in the flat on 4th and 2 looked like a predetermined throw like he was told by coaches to throw it there when a better option was throwing the ball past the sticks.

Overall the players melted down today the coaches made solid calls and the players just lacked execution.

[superskin]

PLaying a fast defense who was keying on Portis, running a reverse might be "cute", but its good coaching. Even if its a short gain, they won't overpursue as much as they have.


Calling a reverse at that location of the field, at the period of the game, isnt normally a bad call. But running that reverse on a wet field to a receiver that has barely recovered from an injury AND had the dropsies all afternoon is befuddling to me. Maybe an okay call, but certainly to the wrong personnel.

[sinskin]

Our defense did not play well today. Sure, Taylor had 2 INT's today, but he could've had 5. Penalties, dropped passes, injuries........this is going to be a major challenge rebuilding from this loss. I'm sick of our gameplan stalling @ halftime. We need to finish off opponents and keep the momentum on our side by NOT turning it over. Now I'm not going to be able to sleep or eat until Wednesday.

exactly... even he dropped 3...

Moss had the most horrid display of a game I have ever witnessed!

I personally blame the loss on him....

JC had an incredible game imo and I feel sorry for him.

[jaylen]

Moss said in a post game interview that he took himself out of the game, there's no way in heck that a player should pull himself out of a game of his caliber because he's made a couple mistakes. I question his heart bigtime because I love him as a player but he pulled HIMSELF out because he didn't feel right and didn't want to be a hindrance to someone else making a play.

Thats tota garbage and he needs to have his attitude adjusted. He's better than that he's our explosive guy the great play is right around the corner.
I hope to never hear him say that again.

Now the mistakes cost us this game

Which ones were most devestating.

-Taylors int drops
-Moss's plays
- Portis's fumble
-Coaching errors with plays
-the brandon Lloyd missed connection
-going away from cooley in the 2nd half.

And finally question marks.

Did our training staff screw us up we had Wade with a groin, we had Raybach with a groin, Heyer with a groin. Moss has a groin , two hamstring guys ARE and Washington.

Are we not prepared correctly in good enough shape.

Or did we use the wrong length cleats in the game we seemed to lose balance far more often than the Packers our lineman were slipping on their drops and there were alot of Cleat changes out there.

Is our training staff and Equipment people dropping the ball.

[PennSkinsFan]

This post sucks.

Moss did not quit on this team, Moss had a bad game.

[JasonCampbell]

He he take himself out of the game due to performance or injury? Moss sucked really badly today. Part of me thinks he wasn't 100% healthy, but he did participate in practice this week, correct? So maybe it was possible for him to suck this much.

[Lavar703]

I have nothing bad to say about Sean Taylor, sure he dropped a few int. but he also caught two of them. The offense was bad, Moss was horrendous and Saunderse choked with his play calling in the second half. Jason Campbell has to work on his deep throws, he consistently misses deep WR wide open, I think that will come with time.

[akhhorus]

This post sucks.

Moss did not quit on this team, Moss had a bad game.

Agreed. And if he wasn't going to help this team, sitting on the bench is the best option.

[Biggie]

Agreed. And if he wasn't going to help this team, sitting on the bench is the best option.
With the game he was having, I would have been upset if they kept him in.

[jaylen]

Moss SAID I TOOK MYSELF OUTTA THE GAME BECAUSE I DIDN'T FEEL RIGHT I WANTED TO ALLOW SOMEONE ELSE TO MAKE A PLAY HE DID NOT MENTION INJURY. I was messing up and couln't get in the game.

he benched himself according to him because he didn't play well.

[jaylen]

Agreed. And if he wasn't going to help this team, sitting on the bench is the best option.

why is our most explosive wr sitting on the bench best for the team.

Your response sucks.

He could have made the next catch he was getting open they needed his ability to get open. Having a rough go doesn't mean oh yeah I'm out. The next good play could have been the next reception.

[Battle Cat]

your on crack...lol (just kidding)

I am never happy with a loss, espescially in conference when we are leading at halftime and we have massive injuries during the game.

This is a wprse loss then the Giants one, 2 losses in conference against playoff teams is not how the first 3rd of the season should end.
Giants loss was much much worse. For one thing we were at home against the Giants. You go 7-1, 6-2 at home only have to go 3-5 or 2-6 on the road.

[sinskin]

Not knowing this until after the fact, I applauded coach when he sat... his game today was worse then bad.... the most horrific display of a star caliber player I have witnessed with the exception of Romo's Monday Night performance. I blame this loss on his effort quite frankly. I know it's a team effort but his mistakes really hurt.

[skinsfan45]

With the game he was having, I would have been upset if they kept him in.
i think he felt like he was helping the team by taking himself out - whether that was right or not, IDK -- hard for me to question whats in his MIND -- i always heard that if u r not the solution, then u r the problem? tough one, but he certainly wasn't the only problem today

[hail2skins]

Moss SAID I TOOK MYSELF OUTTA THE GAME BECAUSE I DIDN'T FEEL RIGHT I WANTED TO ALLOW SOMEONE ELSE TO MAKE A PLAY HE DID NOT MENTION INJURY. I was messing up and couln't get in the game.

he benched himself according to him because he didn't play well.and this is what I was going to ask you. Why did he take himself out of the game. I applaud him for this considering he was having the worst game of his career. This is different from your playmaker not being in there because of scheme and this is in no way him quitting on the team. Your post is a after-loss non-sense post that we sometimes see around here.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

I have nothing bad to say about Sean Taylor, sure he dropped a few int. but he also caught two of them. The offense was bad, Moss was horrendous and Saunders choked with his play calling in the second half. Jason Campbell has to work on his deep throws, he consistently misses deep WR wide open, I think that will come with time.
sure, it would have been nice to hit those throws, but i saw tom brady do that twice today.

Agreed. And if he wasn't going to help this team, sitting on the bench is the best option.
he needed to be benched, he was messing up big time.

[Biggie]

i think he felt like he was helping the team by taking himself out - whether that was right or not, IDK -- hard for me to question whats in his MIND -- i always heard that if u r not the solution, then u r the problem? tough one, but he certainly wasn't the only problem today
Oh, I beg to differ. He was the majority of the problem today.

[Carmelo]

why is our most explosive wr sitting on the bench best for the team.

Your response sucks.

He could have made the next catch he was getting open they needed his ability to get open. Having a rough go doesn't mean oh yeah I'm out. The next good play could have been the next reception.
Saying he didn't feel right could have meant a lot of things. I don't think this means that he gave up on the team at all. If something was wrong, he needed to get the heck out of the way so that someone else could get the job done. You say that our most explosive WR should be on the field but if you look at this year, he hasn't been that so far so what's your complaint? It's a question of whether he felt like someone else honestly gave us a better chance to win. As for me, if a player doesn't think he's that guy then I don't want him out there either.

[jaylen]

I'm not real angry or bitterly disappointed by this game because in my eyes this game validated our defense's ability to shut teams down. So I feel encouraged that if we don't have the mental locks we had on offense today with the drops and fumbles we would have won the game.

I don't feel like we've been physically whipped all season , or beaten because we didn't have enough talent.

Offensive line woes are gonna be the key to the season.

[hail2skins]

why is our most explosive wr sitting on the bench best for the team.

Your response sucks.

He could have made the next catch he was getting open they needed his ability to get open. Having a rough go doesn't mean oh yeah I'm out. The next good play could have been the next reception.You answered your own question when you posted his reason for taking himself out of the game. He basically said, currently I'm holding this team back with my awful play today, let's see if someone else can do better. You thought of him quitting on the team is downright dumb.

[akhhorus]

why is our most explosive wr sitting on the bench best for the team.

Your response sucks.

He could have made the next catch he was getting open they needed his ability to get open. Having a rough go doesn't mean oh yeah I'm out. The next good play could have been the next reception.

I wasn't the one who first said your post sucked(but I agreed with it), I guessing that since the first person is an owner, you decided to attack me. If Moss isn't going to play well(which he clearly wasn't doing), then having someone else in there is a good move.

[Biggie]

Moss has been seriously off this year. I think he's had multiple drops in just about every game.

[hail2skins]

Oh, I beg to differ. He was the majority of the problem today.majority doesn't equal ONLY. Her post said only.

[wewantdallas]

I have to say, if he really took himself out of the game and wasn't injured, I also have a problem with that. Mentally, when you're having a terrible day, it's much more beneficial longterm to keep fighting through it rather than removing yourself from the problem. At least he was getting open. When he wasn't in there, we seemed to have absolutely nothing happening.

That said, Moss' contributions to the team up to this season have more than given him the benefit of the doubt with me. But like Portis, he really needs to start stepping up his game.

[Biggie]

majority doesn't equal ONLY. Her post said only.
True, but I can't think of any other player that shot this team in the foot the way he did. He did more to sink us than the backup O-linemen, all of the other wide receivers, and Portis combined.

[hail2skins]

True, but I can't think of any other player that shot this team in the foot the way he did. He did more to sink us than the backup O-linemen, all of the other wide receivers, and Portis combined.Again, she didn't say ONLY. He played a big part in it but there were others. That's her point.

[hail2skins]

I have to say, if he really took himself out of the game and wasn't injured, I also have a problem with that. Mentally, when you're having a terrible day, it's much more beneficial longterm to keep fighting through it rather than removing yourself from the problem. At least he was getting open. When he wasn't in there, we seemed to have absolutely nothing happening.

That said, Moss' contributions to the team up to this season have more than given him the benefit of the doubt with me. But like Portis, he really needs to start stepping up his game.I kinda agree with what you're saying but I see no problem in what he did if he did it to benefit the team. He's coming off injury and have a terrible day. If he feels he was a detriment to the team and thought someone else could benefit the team, I have no problem with it.

[jaylen]

You answered your own question when you posted his reason for taking himself out of the game. He basically said, currently I'm holding this team back with my awful play today, let's see if someone else can do better. You thought of him quitting on the team is downright dumb.

No its not because I played major college basketball and have been around athlete's most of my life and I have never heard a player pull himself because he was screwing up and not had a teammate or the media question it.

If he was hurt I can absolutely see that.

But to say I'm out of the game simply because he was making mistakes when he's a pro bowl wr in a very close game smells of quitting or the very least submitting.

I hope he really meant he was nicked physically and not just the mistakes.

Because if he gets deep again like he did that one time and he's open and the ball is coming I'm betting he makes the grab.

I can live with mistakes and him having an awful game but his attitude if what he said is what he meant then he needs an attitude adjustment.

Coaches can pull a player because of performance but I don't want my stars pulling themselves because of performance.

Its not noble for him to pull himself because of injury its cowardice. True warriors don't submit because things aren't going well. Because the next great play is around the corner.

[Carmelo]

Moss has been seriously off this year. I think he's had multiple drops in just about every game.


From what I've seen, I agree. Multiple drops in each game. I think it really has to do with his head just not being in the game and a complete lack of concentration. I don't think his mind is in the game. Where else it is, I have no clue... maybe he's thinking about Halo 3 or something, I don't know. I do know, however, that when he's out there on the field, he's not actively thinking about football right now. When he was thinking about football last year, he was on his game. This year he would have done pretty good already if he would have caught all the balls that were catchable.

[jaylen]

I wasn't the one who first said your post sucked(but I agreed with it), I guessing that since the first person is an owner, you decided to attack me. If Moss isn't going to play well(which he clearly wasn't doing), then having someone else in there is a good move.

I'm not scared of an Owner big deal, I'll debate anyone.

I questioned your response.

Anyone can say my post sucks your resulting follow up I mentioned.

[hail2skins]

No its not because I played major college basketball and have been around athlete's most of my life and I have never heard a player pull himself because he was screwing up and not had a teammate or the media question it.

If he was hurt I can absolutely see that.

But to say I'm out of the game simply because he was making mistakes when he's a pro bowl wr in a very close game smells of quitting or the very least submitting.

I hope he really meant he was nicked physically and not just the mistakes.

Because if he gets deep again like he did that one time and he's open and the ball is coming I'm betting he makes the grab.

I can live with mistakes and him having an awful game but his attitude if what he said is what he meant then he needs an attitude adjustment.

Coaches can pull a player because of performance but I don't want my stars pulling themselves because of performance.

Its not noble for him to pull himself because of injury its cowardice. True warriors don't submit because things aren't going well. Because the next great play is around the corner.Who gives a crap about college basketball when we're talking about PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL. That doesn't mean a darn thing to me. I think a player should be able to bench themself just like a coach can if they're not getting the job done. They can continue fighting through it and bring more detriment to the team. Those 4 drops could have been 8 or maybe 12. He could have caught some as well. He wasn't on his game today and recognized that. I commend him for putting his PRO BOWL ego aside and thinking in the best interest of the team and not what's good for him.

[hail2skins]

I'm not scared of an Owner big deal, I'll debate anyone.

I questioned your response.

Anyone can say my post sucks your resulting follow up I mentioned.Who the hell said anything about you being scared to debate with an owner of this site. That's a point that shouldn't even have made it in this discussion.

[jaylen]

Who the hell said anything about you being scared to debate with an owner of this site. That's a point that shouldn't even have made it in this discussion.

If you had read what he wrote you might understand the point I was making.

He said I pointed out his post as if I was avoiding an owners point made about my post and I said why would I be scared to debate an owner.

Thats why I said what I said get it.

[lakeskin]

From what I've seen, I agree. Multiple drops in each game. I think it really has to do with his head just not being in the game and a complete lack of concentration. I don't think his mind is in the game. Where else it is, I have no clue... maybe he's thinking about Halo 3 or something, I don't know. I do know, however, that when he's out there on the field, he's not actively thinking about football right now. When he was thinking about football last year, he was on his game. This year he would have done pretty good already if he would have caught all the balls that were catchable.

I agree. He's one of my favorite players but this year he's been terrible. He just seems disinterested. I think him taking himself out is endemic of that. Hopefully whatever is ailing him goes away in the coming weeks because we need him.

[MPCSkins]

I don't know why anyone isn't mentioning it, but why not just try and kick the field goal at the 33 yard line on 4th and 2 with 6 minutes left in the 4th rather than going for it. I know we aren't completely confident with Suisham but with the game in reach at 3 points, you can try a 50 yarder, it certainly isn't out of his range, though it's definitely not a sure thing either.

[skinsfan45]

Oh, I beg to differ. He was the majority of the problem today.
then differ we shall, because he was only one of that 11 man side:beer:

[hail2skins]

If you had read what he wrote you might understand the point I was making.

He said I pointed out his post as if I was avoiding an owners point made about my post and I said why would I be scared to debate an owner.

Thats why I said what I said get it.It doesn't matter at all. Neither one of you shouldn't have brought it up. That's right Akh, you shouldn't have bought it up. I got on Jaylen, and not it's your turn.

[greatest2]

i actually appluad moss. He thought him being out there and not having a good day, was actually being detrimental to the team. He thought the TEAM would be better without him out there.

That is a man putting the team first. I liked moss before this, and now i love him because his attitude, heart, and style are all on point

[jaylen]

Who gives a crap about college basketball when we're talking about PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL. That doesn't mean a darn thing to me. I think a player should be able to bench themself just like a coach can if they're not getting the job done. They can continue fighting through it and bring more detriment to the team. Those 4 drops could have been 8 or maybe 12. He could have caught some as well. He wasn't on his game today and recognized that. I commend him for putting his PRO BOWL ego aside and thinking in the best interest of the team and not what's good for him.

Well I mentioned my experience being around athlete's and having never heard of them just saying I'll sit let my replacement have a shot.

You obviously don't have experience being around athlete's.

I don't think it matters whats the sport when you're talking about competitiveness.

I'm just saying what he sounded like after the game.

We just disagree.

There's nothing he should be commended on when he pulls himself thats not putting ego aisde, thats not having enough of one to take it to another level.

[hail2skins]

I don't know why anyone isn't mentioning it, but why not just try and kick the field goal at the 33 yard line on 4th and 2 with 6 minutes left in the 4th rather than going for it. I know we aren't completely confident with Suisham but with the game in reach at 3 points, you can try a 50 yarder, it certainly isn't out of his range, though it's definitely not a sure thing either.a 53 yarder, that's probably on the edge. We wanted to see killer instinct and there it was.

I guess I'll have to break out my old statement: The Redskins are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[sinskin]

You know I have never seen anything quite as bad on the football field then last Monday Night looking at Romo's face after the fifth interception. As much as I truely dispise the very existence of him and the Cowboys, I actually felt bad for him as a professional athlete. Yet an arguement can be made to the fact that he stayed in there and played it out even though you know he wanted to crawl away and die! He was there at the end and made a few plays. Even though I screamed for an answer to Moss's terrible play, which we got obviously, I tend to agree that one play could have been around the corner to turn it around for him and us all.

Well, let's face it, everyone has off days. Even if they are payed millions of dollars not to!

[skinsfan45]

Who gives a crap about college basketball when we're talking about PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL. That doesn't mean a darn thing to me. I think a player should be able to bench themself just like a coach can if they're not getting the job done. They can continue fighting through it and bring more detriment to the team. Those 4 drops could have been 8 or maybe 12. He could have caught some as well. He wasn't on his game today and recognized that. I commend him for putting his PRO BOWL ego aside and thinking in the best interest of the team and not what's good for him.
exactly the point i've been trying to make -- i think he stepped UP when he removed himself - now its up to him to correct the problem

[jaylen]

You know I have never seen anything quite as bad on the football field then last Monday Night looking at Romo's face after the fifth interception. As much as I truely dispise the very existence of him and the Cowboys, I actually felt bad for him as a professional athlete. Yet an arguement can be made to the fact that he stayed in there and played it out even though you know he wanted to crawl away and die! He was there at the end and made a few plays. Even though I screamed for an answer to Moss's terrible play, which we got obviously, I tend to agree that one play could have been around the corner to turn it around for him and us all.

Well, let's face it, everyone has off days. Even if they are payed millions of dollars not to!

I agree its all I'm saying.

I'm not mad at Moss for having bad game. Everyone has them he's has the talent to bounce back next week. I just say don't bail you might still be the hero on another play.

[hail2skins]

Well I mentioned my experience being around athlete's and having never heard of them just saying I'll sit let my replacement have a shot.

You obviously don't have experience being around athlete's.

I don't think it matters whats the sport when you're talking about competitiveness.

I'm just saying what he sounded like after the game.

We just disagree.

There's nothing he should be commended on when he pulls himself thats not putting ego aisde, thats not having enough of one to take it to another level.You're making a lot of assumptions and that says a lot about you. Competitiveness is different at a professional level. If a coach comes to me and says I'm taking you out because you aren't effective today and someone else might be, why can't I go to the coaches and say I'm not getting it done today coach. Maybe someone else can have more production than me. I'm not quitting on the team when I say that, I'm thinking in the best interest of the team. Maybe it's ego that keeps a player in when they're not performing well and it takes the coach to squash that ego. It's also nice to see a player can put their ego in check. But you go ahead college athlete, keep on making those assumptions when you don't know squat.

[hail2skins]

Yeah, but that reverse wasn't a bad call(the Pack were overpursuing all day), Moss just played a TERRIBLE game across the board. He cost us a good 13 points swing. I thought Saunders called a decent game, but the execution was beyond lousy.I'm sorry, but if you keeping showing it, the defense will expect it. We should have been running the ball.

[jaylen]

You're making a lot of assumptions and that says a lot about you. Competitiveness is different at a professional level. If a coach comes to me and says I'm taking you out because you aren't effective today and someone else might be, why can't I go to the coaches and say I'm not getting it done today coach. Maybe someone else can have more production than me. I'm not quitting on the team when I say that, I'm thinking in the best interest of the team. Maybe it's ego that keeps a player in when they're not performing well and it takes the coach to squash that ego. It's also nice to see a player can put their ego in check. But you go ahead college athlete, keep on making those assumptions when you don't know squat.

I played pro ball as well smart guy for 4 years overseas.

Coaches job is to put the best players out there if that happened no problem.

But if my pro bowl player who I think is one of the leagues best says I don't have it try someone else thats disappointing and dismaying I'm thinking this guy isn't a warrior.

I don't say wow how nice of you.

Thanks for being a team guy.

You don't get it and I understand why now, its cool we disagree.

[LuvSkins17]

I think a player should be able to bench themself just like a coach can if they're not getting the job done. They can continue fighting through it and bring more detriment to the team. Those 4 drops could have been 8 or maybe 12. He could have caught some as well. He wasn't on his game today and recognized that. I commend him for putting his PRO BOWL ego aside and thinking in the best interest of the team and not what's good for him.

I feel what you are saying Mike. Some players are able to play through this. The truth of the matter is that it depends on the players mentality at the time. Moss wasn't in THAT mindset today. He felt that he had hurt the team enough and he didn't want to continue to let his play hurt the team. I gotta agree with him. He won't make that decision every week (I hope) but today he had to sit himself down.

His post game interview was really sincere too. I felt him when he said it. I wish we could have given more effort by the entire offense..... coach's included.

[BSMKF]

I'm thinking this guy isn't a warrior.

Warriors never give up.

[Lavar703]

a 53 yarder, that's probably on the edge. We wanted to see killer instinct and there it was.

I guess I'll have to break out my old statement: The Redskins are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

True, I wasnt even thinking field goal there, it was win or go home for me, and unfortunately for us we "went home"

[LuvSkins17]

Hey Jaylen. You should relax Brah.... :sleeping:

[hail2skins]

I played pro ball as well smart guy for 4 years overseas.

Coaches job is to put the best players out there if that happened no problem.

But if my pro bowl player who I think is one of the leagues best says I don't have it try someone else thats disappointing and dismaying I'm thinking this guy isn't a warrior.

I don't say wow how nice of you.

Thanks for being a team guy.

You don't get it and I understand why now, its cool we disagree.How the heck am I supposed to know you played 4 years of pro ball overseas smart ass. You're showing your ignorance. I'm not reading your mind, just responding to what you post. Did I ever say you didn't play pro sports; be it here or overseas. Get a grip. You're not proving a darn thing so our best bet is to agree to disagree. You think Moss quit on the team and I don't. I applaud him for recognizing his weakness, you don't.

Football is a team sport and not an individual sport. In football, it takes 11 players on both sides of the ball to be on the same page. If one player feels he isn't; again, a DETRIMENT to the team, I have no problem with him saying to the coaches, try someone else.

[Biggie]

Again, she didn't say ONLY. He played a big part in it but there were others. That's her point.
I feel like we're all saying the same thing and just arguing over semantics here. I'm saying that Moss was the biggest disappointment and I assume you guys agree; you guys are saying other guys screwed up too and I definitely agree with that.

So we're basically on the same page then.

[smoak]

Merged the Moss, Coaching, and Happy threads b/c we just have too many floating around.

I'm disappointed in Moss and his body language certainly tells me a lot this year. He isn't hungry for success IMO. Hopefully JC gives him an earful and goes to him early and often against AZ.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Honestly, I think the problem so far this year has been more regarding what Moss has done on the field rather than what he has done off of it.

[Dept_of_Defense]

Can anybody tell me if that 4th down pass to Sellers that came up short was within Suisham's field goal range? I think that happened in the 4th quarter and a field goal would've tied the game. I feel like it would've been like a 45 yarder to tie.

[hail2skins]

I feel like we're all saying the same thing and just arguing over semantics here. I'm saying that Moss was the biggest disappointment and I assume you guys agree; you guys are saying other guys screwed up too and I definitely agree with that.

So we're basically on the same page then.This post clears it up because your response to her indicated you thought it was only him.

[LuvSkins17]

We should have won this game. Take away one of the turn overs and we win this game even with the other mistakes. The only difference between the first two games and the two losses.... we won the close one. Our losses have been close.... 2 of our 3 wins have been close. We are still learning. It would be nice to win as we learn but we have to stay in the pack...

We will hit our stride soon. I know we will.... we just need every player to be accountable and know that every play they are giving their all. I don't think that is happening right now?

[Lavar703]

Watching the Patriots right now, I just dont see how were going to beat them, this game we lost today was a must win, because even if we beat the Cardinals, and thats not a given, we have to face the Patriots and unlike the Cowboys, we have to face them on the road. Another thing I would like to bring up about todays game was the poor officiating, I have seen some poorly called games, but this one was up there with the worse, and it was bad for both teams.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Watching the Patriots right now, I just dont see how were going to beat them, this game we lost today was a must win, because even if we beat the Cardinals, and thats not a given, we have to face the Patriots and unlike the Cowboys, we have to face them on the road. Another thing I would like to bring up about todays game was the poor officiating, I have seen some poorly called games, but this one was up there with the worse, and it was bad for both teams.
I was thinking the same thing. Right now, I think that 4-3 after the Pats game is a best case scenario.
They just put up 48 points, on the road, against a 5-0 Cowboys team. I think the Pats (especially) and the Colts are out of our league right now.

[MPCSkins]

Can anybody tell me if that 4th down pass to Sellers that came up short was within Suisham's field goal range? I think that happened in the 4th quarter and a field goal would've tied the game. I feel like it would've been like a 45 yarder to tie.


That's what I was saying. It was at the 33 so it would have been about a 50 yarder. No, Suisham is definitely not automatic from 50, but I think he has a chance from 50 so why not just kick the 50 yarder to attempt to tie it and if not then rely on our D who had a good game and were holding the Pack most of the game?

[Lavar703]

I was thinking the same thing. Right now, I think that 4-3 after the Pats game is a best case scenario.
They just put up 48 points, on the road, against a 5-0 Cowboys team. I think the Pats (especially) and the Colts are out of our league right now.

Maybe our D can slow down the Pats, I really believe we have the best D in the NFL, I dont even think its close, but Tom Brady to Randy Moss or Wes Welker or Donte Stallworth or Ben Watson, how do you beat a team like that, this packer game really could come back to haunt us

[hogskins]

Sure, we didn't win the game, but we certainly learned some things about our team.

What did we learn--that we will do a loop-the-loop when grabbing our ankles? How could we possibly manage to lose this game?

[jtovb2005]

Ummm, you have to line up and play the game before you can win or loose. You don't just put these things into a computer and let them decide. No reason why we can't win in New England, tough sure but can be done.

[Lavar703]

That's what I was saying. It was at the 33 so it would have been about a 50 yarder. No, Suisham is definitely not automatic from 50, but I think he has a chance from 50 so why not just kick the 50 yarder to attempt to tie it and if not then rely on our D who had a good game and were holding the Pack most of the game?

I think the Weather conditions had alot to do with the decision, but not kicking the field goal was the right call, we went for the win as good teams due, unfortunately were a really good defensive team with an offense that has yet to catch up

[Lavar703]

Ummm, you have to line up and play the game before you can win or loose. You don't just put these things into a computer and let them decide. No reason why we can't win in New England, tough sure but can be done.

Oh I never said it wasnt possible, but after watching them dismantle a 5-0 team, it makes things seem a bit bleak

[jtovb2005]

Oh I never said it wasnt possible, but after watching them dismantle a 5-0 team, it makes things seem a bit bleak

Sorry Lavar I was responding to another post. Should have quoted it.

It does look tough but this is why I don't play pools. I could care less what the odds are or what it looks like I always pick the Skins. Any Sunday anything can happen. The team just needs to get around to making that happen more than not. This year's team is much improved over last and needs to get over this hump.

[bnicely]

I've been a Portis supporter, and I think Moss will bounce back but I'm very dissapointed in our mentality today. It's pretty clear that we have the talent to win against anyone injuries aside but what's keeping us from getting it done is we don't have that "champion mentality" from some of our key people. I think the D may have it, but right now Portis doesn't and Moss really dissapointed me by taking himself out. Can you imagine Michael Jordan taking himself out of a close game with lots of time left when he was having a bad shooting performance. Nooooooooooo!! Our offense will continue to be mediocre until Portis or Moss gets their edge back or steps aside to allow room for someone who will.

[Lavar703]

Sorry Lavar I was responding to another post. Should have quoted it.

It does look tough but this is why I don't play pools. I could care less what the odds are or what it looks like I always pick the Skins. Any Sunday anything can happen. The team just needs to get around to making that happen more than not. This year's team is much improved over last and needs to get over this hump.


Honestly I believe if the Skins D cant slow the Patriots down than no ones defense can. I dont see the patriots putting up over 21 points against us, but will our offense fail to take advantage of oppurtunities again, that will be the deciding factor.

[CNYSkinFan]

I always look at the season in quarters, we went 3-1 in the first quarter. With this loss to green bay we are 0-1 in the second quarter. We must be at least 2-2 to give ourselves a reasonable shot at a playoff run.

We play Az, @ NE, @ NYJ. Az and the jets now become must win because I don't think we can actually beat NE in NE. Is it possible to win, maybe, but it would take significant injury and luck onm our part.

so 5-3 after the second quarter is not a horrible record.

I am just getting sick of losing games when we are up at halftime. We are either out of condition or being outcoached or possibly anmd more likely both.

Right now we could be the only undefeated team in the NFC...think about that chance blown

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Here is a disturbing stat: in his last 907 rushes as a Washington Redskin, (meaning all of them except his first one), Clinton Portis has 13 runs of 20+ yards.
That is the same number he had in his second (and final) season with the Broncos, on just 290 rushes.

[MikeBass]

They can be blamed for awful clock management, which for whatever reason quite simply cannot or will not be addressed by the coaches themselves. You call a timeout on 3rd down, and you waste another one on 4th down? You should have had two plays ready to go under the circumstance that you knew it was two down territory. then to not take a TO before the 2min warning was assinine.

I agree with you that the players had more to do with today's loss, but the leaders of this team absolutely suck when it comes to this one crucial element, and after almost four years, there isn't any siogn of improvement.

Those 9 seconds did not lose us this game. Missed catches, the lack of a running game and Portis' inability to hold onto the ball ONCE again is what did us in.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Those 9 seconds did not lose us this game. Missed catches, the lack of a running game and Portis' inability to hold onto the ball ONCE again is what did us in.
Yeah, but those 9, in addition to the two consecutive timeouts we burned (to then NOT get a first down) did not help at all.
How is it that a team that is so often involved in close games finds itself time and time again without any timeouts after the two minute warning?

[MikeBass]

Yeah, but those 9, in addition to the two consecutive timeouts we burned (to then NOT get a first down) did not help at all.
How is it that a team that is so often involved in close games finds itself time and time again without any timeouts after the two minute warning?

HECK MAN, the coaches can not MAKE players throw to the correct guys and execute plays. Why was the guy even behind the first down marker on 4th down and 1 (ONE DANGON YARD) and/or Campbell throw it to him when McCardell was wide open across the middle?... Should we had went for a darn near 60 yard FG instead?...punted with time running out?

[smoak]

Watching the Patriots right now, I just dont see how were going to beat them, this game we lost today was a must win, because even if we beat the Cardinals, and thats not a given, we have to face the Patriots and unlike the Cowboys, we have to face them on the road. Another thing I would like to bring up about todays game was the poor officiating, I have seen some poorly called games, but this one was up there with the worse, and it was bad for both teams.

I can't disagree more. The reason I am so mad is that we are good enough to beat the Pats... but we can't give them a bunch of free turnovers like we did the Packers.

[shally]

I can't disagree more. The reason I am so mad is that we are good enough to beat the Pats... but we can't give them a bunch of free turnovers like we did the Packers.

it was a poorly officated game, but they made bad calls both ways (the pushout of the endzone by smoot should have been a TD and rogers got away with mugging a receiver that wasnt called)

we lost because of the way our offensive players dropped passes and fumbles

10 points given up by the defense to the packers.. you should be able to win a game when your defense plays favre that well

[MikeBass]

it was a poorly officated game, but they made bad calls both ways (the pushout of the endzone by smoot should have been a TD and rogers got away with mugging a receiver that wasnt called)

we lost because of the way our offensive players dropped passes and fumbles

10 points given up by the defense to the packers.. you should be able to win a game when your defense plays favre that well

BOTH WAYS !!!...

I think that Campbell. Cooley and McCardell was the only guys on O who came to play football today. McCardell may have been put in the game to late.

[smoak]

Moss has been seriously off this year. I think he's had multiple drops in just about every game.

I firmly beliee that JC needs to privately rip him a new one (ala Jake Taylor to Roger Dorn in Major League), but then got to him constantly against AZ. Moss is too good to stay in this funk.

[smoak]

it was a poorly officated game, but they made bad calls both ways (the pushout of the endzone by smoot should have been a TD and rogers got away with mugging a receiver that wasnt called)

we lost because of the way our offensive players dropped passes and fumbles

10 points given up by the defense to the packers.. you should be able to win a game when your defense plays favre that well

Even with the poor officiating, we win the game if we don't beat ourselves. Wasn't the push out after the Portis fumble or no? Nevermind, I don't want to relive it.

[hail2skins]

BOTH WAYS !!!...

I think that Campbell. Cooley and McCardell was the only guys on O who came to play football today. McCardell may have been put in the game to late.What the heck does this have to do with his post responding to another member about officiating.

[redskin_rich]

Even with the poor officiating, we win the game if we don't beat ourselves. Wasn't the push out after the Portis fumble or no? Nevermind, I don't want to relive it.

This is the point. No need to blame officials (who were bad) or coaches clock management (which also was bad), we should have easily won this game but some of our players on offense totally crapped the bed. If half of the plays that were blown by pitiful execution of our skill players, had been made, we win this game going away.

[MPCSkins]

I firmly beliee that JC needs to privately rip him a new one (ala Jake Taylor to Roger Dorn in Major League), but then got to him constantly against AZ. Moss is too good to stay in this funk.

Couldn't agree more. This is not the Moss we know, and if someone as quiet as Campbell gets on him, I think he may realize the magnitude of this and how important he is to the team. Once that happens, go deep to him early against AZ and get right back into the groove.

[MikeBass]

What the heck does this have to do with his post responding to another member about officiating.

I'll try to break it down to you...I bolded in Shally's post "BOTH WAYS" because I was actually in agreement with with him that the the officials made bad calls "both ways" and then again AGREED with him with what the problems was in the game today... this is what the heck that it had to do with it

[CNYSkinFan]

What the heck does this have to do with his post responding to another member about officiating.
Nothing but Mike Bass must come to the Redskins rescue because that is what he does. Need an apologist...Mike Bass is your man.

[CNYSkinFan]

This is the point. No need to blame officials (who were bad) or coaches clock management (which also was bad), we should have easily won this game but some of our players on offense totally crapped the bed. If half of the plays that were blown by pitiful execution of our skill players, had been made, we win this game going away.
agree totally.

HOWEVEr

The issue of clock management and offensive playcalling persists and both had something to do witht he game today, but even if the coaches were perfect today the players still would have done them in.

[MikeBass]

Nothing but Mike Bass must come to the Redskins rescue because that is what he does. Need an apologist...Mike Bass is your man.

"APOLOGIST"? ...I was agreeing with the guy that bad calls were made both ways

[hail2skins]

I'll try to break it down to you...I bolded in Shally's post "BOTH WAYS" because I was actually in agreement with with him that the the officials made bad calls "both ways" and then again AGREED with him with what the problems was in the game today... this is what the heck that it had to do with itLet me break it down for you. How can anyone get the feeling you were agreeing that calls were made both ways and you agreed with him with the following:

BOTH WAYS !!!...

I think that Campbell. Cooley and McCardell was the only guys on O who came to play football today. McCardell may have been put in the game to late.

In your post, you highlighted his text "Both Ways" and then you make the statement you made. How the heck is someone supposed to surmise that you agreed with his comment.

Both Ways - references his comments on the officiating of the game (he thought it was a good officated game on both sides)

Then you respond by saying Campbell, Cooley and McCardell were the only guys on O to play football today. Explain what that has to do with officiating.

[smoak]

agree totally.

HOWEVEr

The issue of clock management and offensive playcalling persists and both had something to do witht he game today, but even if the coaches were perfect today the players still would have done them in.

Translation:
"I have to get my gratutious shot in at the coaching staff in every thread so here it is."

In reality, the clock management IMO was not good but had NO bearing on the outcome of the game. I would have called the TO #3 immediately after the first run and used the 2 minute warning for the second play, but the clock still would have started after the third run. I wasn't a fan of the back-toback timeouts, but Gibbs wasn't the one who prematurely checked down to a RB with a WIDE OPEN WR on the route (or so I have been told and thoguht I saw). It was Campbell's biggest mistake on the day and part of the maturation process...

But to saying the time management was the reason we lost (or even mention it as a major contributor) is just one-sided hate one your part...

[MikeBass]

Let me break it down for you. How can anyone get the feeling you were agreeing that calls were made both ways and you agreed with him with the following:



In your post, you highlighted his text "Both Ways" and then you make the statement you made. How the heck is someone supposed to surmise that you agreed with his comment.

Both Ways - references his comments on the officiating of the game (he thought it was a good officated game on both sides)

Then you respond by saying Campbell, Cooley and McCardell were the only guys on O to play football today. Explain what that has to do with officiating.

What he said was that the game was "poorly officiated on BOTH SIDES" and I agreed with that and then he went on to say that "fumbles and drop passes caused us the game" and TOO I agreed with that and expounded with a comment or two about the ONLY players who came to play today...illegal?

[CNYSkinFan]

Translation:
"I have to get my gratutious shot in at the coaching staff in every thread so here it is."

In reality, the clock management IMO was not good but had NO bearing on the outcome of the game. I would have called the TO #3 immediately after the first run and used the 2 minute warning for the second play, but the clock still would have started after the third run. I wasn't a fan of the back-toback timeouts, but Gibbs wasn't the one who prematurely checked down to a RB with a WIDE OPEN WR on the route (or so I have been told and thoguht I saw). It was Campbell's biggest mistake on the day and part of the maturation process...

But to saying the time management was the reason we lost (or even mention it as a major contributor) is just one-sided hate one your part...

Smoak I know you hate when I criticize, even when I do it even handidly , but please point out where in my post I said major contributor.

Failing to do so I expect a retraction from you.

[hail2skins]

What he said was that the game was "poorly officiated on BOTH SIDES" and I agreed with that and then he went on to say that "fumbles and drop passes caused us the game" and TOO I agreed with that and expounded with a comment or two about the ONLY players who came to play today...illegal?having bad calls go both ways is a good officiated game.

Now pay attention:

Prove that your post highlighting "both ways" showed you approved with him
Prove that you agree with him on fumbles and dropped passes.

It's a simple task that I ask.

Highlighting "both ways" doesn't tell us (the rest of hR) you agree with the other poster. We don't read minds here, just posts.

[firehawk157]

Warriors know when to retreat though... Only idiots press the attack when it will put them in a worse position. Warriors are smart first, physically dominant second.

*edit* this is in response to somebody's post (forgot who) that said that warriors never give up (moss taking himself outta the game)...

[sinskin]

Hail2skins takes losses really hard me thinks....**deleted by Dave, not funny, ever** ... but this guy ... wow lol:beer:

[rskinsfan10]

Those 9 seconds did not lose us this game. Missed catches, the lack of a running game and Portis' inability to hold onto the ball ONCE again is what did us in.I never said that 9 seconds did lose us the game, but it certainly didn't help us win it either. Maybe with better clock and TO management we still have one, and instead of suffering from the 10sec run off for Heyer's injury, we could just take the TO there and regroup? Maybe, just maybe? Who knows what could have happened if we had that TO. The original title of this thread dealt with not blaming the coaches. Well, IMO there is something legitimate and detrimental that they can be blamed for, and it is a recurring theme with this team and especially this coaching staff.

[MikeBass]

[QUOTE=hail2skins;1022355]having bad calls go both ways is a good officiated game.

QUOTE]

Yeah OK your site , your call . This was the best officiated game that I have ever seen because they definitely made bad calls all day on both sides of the ball.

[MikeBass]

Hail2skins takes losses really hard me thinks....deleted ... but this guy ... wow lol:beer:

MAN-O-MAN...LOL!!!

[firehawk157]

Bad weather, hostile crowd and having to make a decision of whether to put a defensive lineman at tackle or your injured BACK-UP. Rabach went out too, and that HAS to hurt. Basically, our offense started really tripping over it's feet when we lost Heyer and Rabach. I don't know a single team that could resort to playing an injured back-up and still stay competitive against the Packers at Lambeau. We did. That's a small victory in itself...

Having said that though, I think McCardell needs to take the vet leadership position and pull Moss aside and really get onto him. I think that would go further than JC because McCardell has seen it all, done it all. Portis needs to step it up to and get rid of that smug sense of entitlement.

[firehawk157]

I never said that 9 seconds did lose us the game, but it certainly didn't help us win it either. Maybe with better clock and TO management we still have one, and instead of suffering from the 10sec run off for Heyer's injury, we could just take the TO there and regroup? Maybe, just maybe? Who knows what could have happened if we had that TO. The original title of this thread dealt with not blaming the coaches. Well, IMO there is something legitimate and detrimental that they can be blamed for, and it is a recurring theme with this team and especially this coaching staff.
We could have had 3 timeouts and 2 minutes to go and nothing would have changed.

[rskinsfan10]

We could have had 3 timeouts and 2 minutes to go and nothing would have changed.Sarcasm, correct?

[BandWagon]

I tell you what I am inclined to lay on the coaches....half time adjustments. Looks like the JLC blog was spot on. This team is being "out adjusted" in the second half. I don't hang it on Gibbs specifically, but as the man at the top he's ultimately responsible. Green Bay came out and took it to us. I got the benefit of listening to the post game show up here and they were talking a fair amount half time "tweaks" and getting together and deciding to "man up" as their intensity wasn't where it needed to be. Hand it to them. Our yards per carry plunged. Cooley was practically eliminated in the second half. Sure we self destructed. True we would have won the game barring that one catastrophic turnover. But the greater concern is that this team is getting routinely out-coached in the second half of games.

[MikeBass]

We could have had 3 timeouts and 2 minutes to go and nothing would have changed.

Not a thing man, the offense did not ...are you understanding what I am saying?...I am agreeing with you...The offense did not come to play today and with the way Portis, Betts and Moss are looking I do not think that it is promising in the near future.

[shally]

Bad weather, hostile crowd and having to make a decision of whether to put a defensive lineman at tackle or your injured BACK-UP. Rabach went out too, and that HAS to hurt. Basically, our offense started really tripping over it's feet when we lost Heyer and Rabach. I don't know a single team that could resort to playing an injured back-up and still stay competitive against the Packers at Lambeau. We did. That's a small victory in itself...

Having said that though, I think McCardell needs to take the vet leadership position and pull Moss aside and really get onto him. I think that would go further than JC because McCardell has seen it all, done it all. Portis needs to step it up to and get rid of that smug sense of entitlement.

i think mccardell will do whatever he can to help the team.. but it is unrealistic for someone who has been here for only a couple of weeks
to provide some kind of leadership other than being totally committed and professional in his work habits

it really hurts when the men who carried the team to it's last playoff berth (portis/moss) are the players letting the team down.. it is not just an issue of conditioning, or mental mistakes, or fumbles-- it is all of them.
when your "best player" is a major part of the problem, the team is in trouble.... in this case, the offense is in trouble

i think we are in transition from this team being portis' team, to it being JC's team. it is too heavy of a burden for JC to carry right now. he has been asked to simply manage the games. he has done that beyond any measure we could have hoped for. but the day will come when he can do so much more. he is just not there yet.. it is that hope that gets me through days like
today

[rskinsfan10]

I tell you what I am inclined to lay on the coaches....half time adjustments. Looks like the JLC blog was spot on. This team is being "out adjusted" in the second half. I don't hang it on Gibbs specifically, but as the man at the top he's ultimately responsible. Green Bay came out and took it to us. I got the benefit of listening to the post game show up here and they were talking a fair amount half time "tweaks" and getting together and deciding to "man up" as their intensity wasn't where it needed to be. Hand it to them. Our yards per carry plunged. Cooley was practically eliminated in the second half. Sure we self destructed. True we would have won the game barring that one catastrophic turnover. But the greater concern is that this team is getting routinely out-coached in the second half of games.Ding Ding Ding, another excellent point about this staff. What pisses me off even more about this is having lived through Gibbs I where he was revered throughout the rest of the league for making said adjustments at the half.

[smoak]

Smoak I know you hate when I criticize, even when I do it even handidly , but please point out where in my post I said major contributor.

Failing to do so I expect a retraction from you.

I retract nothing. I am as critical as the next guy, but you are so blind with hate you can't even see it. You were critical of us going for two last week for pete's sake. At this point you are arguing semantics and getting hung up on "major contributor".

This season is so maddening b/c unlike last year, I really feel this is a good team. Hopefully one day all sides of the game can get on the same page (offense, defense, AND coaching), but until then please continue to blame everything including the war in Iraq on the coaching staff.

[BandWagon]

Ding Ding Ding, another excellent point about this staff. What pisses me off even more about this is having lived through Gibbs I where he was revered throughout the rest of the league for making said adjustments at the half.

Interesting you mention that. I had two conversations with separate Packer fans who were asking me about how great Gibbs is at half time adjustments. Ironically, it wsan't in the context of this game...cause you'd have to just scratch your head about that one. But I had to explain that skins aren't nearly as effective as they used to be...that it's probably because Gibbs has delegated so much. But it was interesting how that reputation is still prevelent in a place like Green Bay.

[RedskinRyan]

can anybody enlighten me on this moss quitting thing? i wasnt aware randy was on the team......

i worked all day so couldnt watch the game, but have it dvr'ed. perhaps ill watch the first three quarters tomorrow.

[frankez99]

We lost because, like the Packers, we are an average NFL team who have very little identity. Run team? Nah.....Pass team? Nah..... Hey, why don't we try the "double reverse", you know, a play that a team with a high-powered offense calls when the weather is good or indoors? Great play call :awesomewo.... We may think we are a running team, but Betts and Portis are very average...Portis is only a superstar to Redskins fans (not this one).... Our receivers.....average....Moss------->Disinterested...... We only seem to excel at the TE position, that is, when we get him involved. I'm not all doom and gloom, but dang, this team frustrates.......can't you tell I'm among the frustrated?

This team has been stuck in a losing culture for so long they are afraid of a little success.

But I'm a glutton for punishment and I'll stick with them forever. Hail....

[rskinsfan10]

Interesting you mention that. I had two conversations with separate Packer fans who were asking me about how great Gibbs is at half time adjustments. Ironically, it wsan't in the context of this game...cause you'd have to just scratch your head about that one. But I had to explain that skins aren't nearly as effective as they used to be...that it's probably because Gibbs has delegated so much. But it was interesting how that reputation is still prevelent in a place like Green Bay.I'd attribute that to the fact that as you mentioned earlier the Packers are what it's all about in Green Bay, and because of that IMO the fans there are probably some of if not the most knowledgeable when it comes to the sport and it's history.

[firehawk157]

Sarcasm, correct?
No sarcasm at all.

Here's the last drive...

1-10 Incomplete short right to B Lloyd... (No timeout necessary)
2-10 Jason Campbell sacked for -2... Heyer was hurt, that would have forced a timeout, instead of a run-off of the clock. But either way... (2 timeouts, 1:50 left *just guessing*)
3-12 False start on Kendall... 5 yards, 10 second run-off (they ran off 5 seconds without resetting and didn't put it back up either, so I thought that was BS, either way, about 1:40 left and two timeouts)
3-17 Incomplete to Thrash, deep left. (No timeout necessary, about 1:33 left on the clock)
4-17 Short pass right to Betts for 11 yards to the WAS 24. Turnover on downs (2 timeouts left and let's call it 1:25 left on the clock).

We have 2 timeouts left now, Green Bay is easily in FG range. What makes you think that, if given another drive, we'd be able to do anything with it???

[rskinsfan10]

We have 2 timeouts left now, Green Bay is easily in FG range. What makes you think that, if given another drive, we'd be able to do anything with it???The question is how do you know that we wouldn't have been able to do anything with them? You are acting as though this team didn't move the ball at all all game. Losing the 10secs for Heyer's injury drastically changes your strategy in what play is called. Maybe you don't throw to Thrash left and you try something over the middle that might have been open. You have to assume that they were playing for the deep balls and guarding the sidelines due to us not having any TOs. I can say with certainty that I don't know if we could have pulled it out if we had TOs at our disposal, but what I do know is without those TOs we drastically handicap our abilities to pull it out. I'm not a fortune teller, nor do I play one on TV. You seem to be willing to bet the farm that we wouldn't have stood a chance even if we had TOs available. If you are basing that off of one drive, or even two then I guess the team should take a knee from here on out following say a 3 and out or any drive that doesn't result in points on the board.

[TonyStewart]

I have tried to read all the posts in the entire jumbled up place and that is why I dont post much during the season(well, that and I dont like to post out of pure anger).

The NFL is a MAN's game and Santana Moss can not be considered a man. I just think its ridiculous that he took himself out of a 14-17 game, when ONE play changes everything(just like his fumble on the reverse or his tipped pass that was incorrectly intercepted). It is the coach that should decide that, not a player(past seasons' play does not make him a "star player"). He took himself out when his team still needed him and he should have NO SAY IN IT. I hate poor performances and even bad attitudes BUT there is no excuse for QUITTERS and that is what he did(not a chance you can truly argue against that, you can only TRY to justify). Some kind of discipline should be taken(fine of some kind or a benching).

Oh and for the people that have to always bash Lloyd for something, that "smile" looked more like a grimace after stretching himself for the pass.

3 wins in the first 5 weeks is OKAY, unfortunately it should be 5 wins but 3 wins with 11 games left looks a lot more promising than last year's team.

[CNYSkinFan]

I retract nothing. I am as critical as the next guy, but you are so blind with hate you can't even see it. You were critical of us going for two last week for pete's sake. At this point you are arguing semantics and getting hung up on "major contributor".

This season is so maddening b/c unlike last year, I really feel this is a good team. Hopefully one day all sides of the game can get on the same page (offense, defense, AND coaching), but until then please continue to blame everything including the war in Iraq on the coaching staff.
that was a legitimate strategy querstion (going for 2 last week) not a criticism.

Like it or not Smoak I am not the only one critical of this coaching staff. I give credit where credit is due but the following facts have NEVER changed:

1.) Time management: We have blown more time outs and lost more time in crucial situations then I ever imagined a Gibbs coached team.

2.) Half time adjustments: We lose more games when leading at halftime then any other team over the last 4 seasons, that is a statistical fact. We are getting outcoached in-game. Another thing I never thought I would see with a GIbbs coached team

3.) Inconsistency: We are consistently inconsistent. We constantly play to the level of our opponent with Detroit last week being the rare exception.

Smoak why nis it you don't jump on others in this thread who have made more strenous points about the coaching of this game then me when I just pointed out these things are issues? Why do I get your disdain but not the others that point out my same points? You want me to be your foil, fine, I am a big boy I can take it. But please *read* my posts and digest them before blindly responding.

[firehawk157]

Whoa there hoss. I'm as mad as anyone (sane) else, but calling that dude not a man, that's going further. Even if he wasn't injured, I can see his logic in taking himself out. Personally, I'd want him in there if for no other reason than to draw coverage, but that doesn't make him not a man.

[CarMike]

Are we certain that it was up to Moss to come out or did the coaches bench him? Sorry, but I don't have the patience to read through this entire load of crap to find out.

Thanks.

[WarEagle]

Are we certain that it was up to Moss to come out or did the coaches bench him? Sorry, but I don't have the patience to read through this entire load of crap to find out.

Thanks.

Earlier in the post, someone wrote that Moss said after the game that he took himself out.

[CarMike]

Earlier in the post, someone wrote that Moss said after the game that he took himself out.

If that's true. That's pathetic. That's not the time to quit. Redeem yourself!

[TonyStewart]

Whoa there hoss. I'm as mad as anyone (sane) else, but calling that dude not a man, that's going further. Even if he wasn't injured, I can see his logic in taking himself out. Personally, I'd want him in there if for no other reason than to draw coverage, but that doesn't make him not a man.

OKAY he was not a man today. I see quitters as being nothing but cowards or kids and I do not think Moss is a coward, therefore he was not a man today. Now, if I am wrong and he was benched by a coach or was unable to play due to injury then I will change my statements and apologize.

[CarMike]

OKAY he was not a man today. I see quitters as being nothing but cowards or kids and I do not think Moss is a coward, therefore he was not a man today. Now, if I am wrong and he was benched by a coach or was unable to play due to injury then I will change my statements and apologize.

I agree with ya TS.

[Skins4life]

We all know that Moss killed us. He is in a funk. Remember the dallas game. Remember the Panther game in ot. He has talent. Whatever is happening, he will figure it out. Maybe he took himself out of the game. Yes, a cowardly approach. He let his team and fans down. This game was like a perfect storm. A ton of dropped balls . Alot for a first down, some for more. So many things went wrong. Officiating(int ARE. - bs - thrash int. , etc) but Moss will figure it out. For the first time in a while, I dont mind this loss, why? because I see no other team in the NFC that we are intimidated by. They will learn. The D is forming. The O is coming together. Its not how you start, its how you finish.

HAIL

Goodnight Arizona

[redskin_rich]

I thought the coaches benched Moss but I didn't watch or listen to any of the post game interviews.
Personally, I thought Moss should have been benched when he was. Not after the fumble or the dropped balls before but after the last pass he dropped. Everyone makes mistakes and has bad games but what makes someone a true "fighter", for lack of a better word, is how they get back up from their failures. Moss showed that he either could not or was not interested in redeeming himself and therefor deserved to be on the bench. This is not the Moss that I have known. Something is up with him.

[shally]

I thought the coaches benched Moss but I didn't watch or listen to any of the post game interviews.
Personally, I thought Moss should have been benched when he was. Not after the fumble or the dropped balls before but after the last pass he dropped. Everyone makes mistakes and has bad games but what makes someone a true "fighter", for lack of a better word, is how they get back up from their failures. Moss showed that he either could not or was not interested in redeeming himself and therefor deserved to be on the bench. This is not the Moss that I have known. Something is up with him.

i agree. he seems to be a totally different player this year

[WarEagle]

OKAY he was not a man today. I see quitters as being nothing but cowards or kids and I do not think Moss is a coward, therefore he was not a man today. Now, if I am wrong and he was benched by a coach or was unable to play due to injury then I will change my statements and apologize.

I think he got rattled to his very core. He was probably so disgusted with himself that he just had enough of the ongoing humiliation. He did the team a favor and should be made to compete for his starting job this week in practice. A tough business, folks.

[dcumdfan]

Insight into the Moss situation.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3063743

[skinfanjon]

i agree. he seems to be a totally different player this year

Is he having some personal problems? Have we heard anything to that affect?

[CarMike]

I thought the coaches benched Moss but I didn't watch or listen to any of the post game interviews.
Personally, I thought Moss should have been benched when he was. Not after the fumble or the dropped balls before but after the last pass he dropped. Everyone makes mistakes and has bad games but what makes someone a true "fighter", for lack of a better word, is how they get back up from their failures. Moss showed that he either could not or was not interested in redeeming himself and therefor deserved to be on the bench. This is not the Moss that I have known. Something is up with him.

Today wasn't the first time this year I've noticed Moss with some attitude. It was either the Miami game or the Giants game and Campbell made a couple of bad throws to Moss. He got up and was frustrated that ball wasn't catchable. Then the next play or two Moss dropped a perfectly thrown ball.

I agree. Something isn't right with Moss.

[CNYSkinFan]

why i like campbell...from the article above:

"He is a great person, and I don't want the city or anyone else to say anything bad about him or get down on him," Campbell said of Moss.

That is true leadership here and something his teammates are going to admire

[frankez99]

Insight into the Moss situation.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3063743

Thanks for posting that.

I'm VERY down on Moss....but to hear that his team-mates still have a lot of faith in him speaks worlds. He'll bounce back.

Let's hope today, and the earlier bad games....are aberrations.

One thing I will not forgive him for though....I put him in at the LAST second on a "hunch" for my fantasy team....who did I pull out? Wes Welker! Moss got me -2...Welker piled up 29 on my bench!:Offtopic:

[hail2skins]

Hail2skins takes losses really hard me thinks....**deleted by Dave, not funny, ever** ... but this guy ... wow lol:beer:I'm not taking the loss hard. It's all the idiotic comments being spewed that I can't deal with. IF you fall into that category, then so be it.

[shally]

why i like campbell...from the article above:



That is true leadership here and something his teammates are going to admire


agree.

and i like moss stepping up and saying it was the worst game he ever had..
at least nothing like lloyd's attitude.. i hope moss comes back with a huge game next week and i bet JC looks to get him the ball often

[hail2skins]

[quote=hail2skins;1022355]having bad calls go both ways is a good officiated game.

QUOTE]

Yeah OK your site , your call . This was the best officiated game that I have ever seen because they definitely made bad calls all day on both sides of the ball.You should go back to ES where you belong. I'll help you since you can't debate with adults.

[WarEagle]

i think mccardell will do whatever he can to help the team.. but it is unrealistic for someone who has been here for only a couple of weeks
to provide some kind of leadership other than being totally committed and professional in his work habits

it really hurts when the men who carried the team to it's last playoff berth (portis/moss) are the players letting the team down.. it is not just an issue of conditioning, or mental mistakes, or fumbles-- it is all of them.
when your "best player" is a major part of the problem, the team is in trouble.... in this case, the offense is in trouble

i think we are in transition from this team being portis' team, to it being JC's team. it is too heavy of a burden for JC to carry right now. he has been asked to simply manage the games. he has done that beyond any measure we could have hoped for. but the day will come when he can do so much more. he is just not there yet.. it is that hope that gets me through days like
today

I like your transition theory.
A game of brilliance mixed with devastating incompetence. We saw JC respond to the opening GB td in a calm, first-rate fashion. I think that series will stick with me long after the sting of this loss diminishes. The most depressing part of the game was the image of a dejected Jason walking off the field accompanied by the CBS Sports graphic "5 Dropped Passes."

[shally]

I like your transition theory.
A game of brilliance mixed with devastating incompetence. We saw JC respond to the opening GB td in a calm, first-rate fashion. I think that series will stick with me long after the sting of this loss diminishes. The most depressing part of the game was the image of a dejected Jason walking off the field accompanied by the CBS Sports graphic "5 Dropped Passes."
there will be better days.. but the o line is critical now. JC likes to stay in the pocket and when running to his left he loses accuracy.

we need to get it fixed fast

[Sweepea436]

I'm on the other side of the planet right now, I got to see most of the game (time delayed) but please help me out here since I have no way to go back and rewatch the game -- Did GB take Cooley out of the game or did we just stop going to him? He seemed to be the only one in sync with Campbell today. ARE did well with the opportunities we gave him, Lloyd needs to go, Moss needs hypnotherapy we finally signed a good veteran receiver! D did awesome for the bad situations we left them in........ that about right? Oh and there was a few AWFUL, AWFUL calls..... both ways. Stripes were bad yesterday.......

[shally]

I'm on the other side of the planet right now, I got to see most of the game (time delayed) but please help me out here since I have no way to go back and rewatch the game -- Did GB take Cooley out of the game or did we just stop going to him? He seemed to be the only one in sync with Campbell today. ARE did well with the opportunities we gave him, Lloyd needs to go, Moss needs hypnotherapy we finally signed a good veteran receiver! D did awesome for the bad situations we left them in........ that about right? Oh and there was a few AWFUL, AWFUL calls..... both ways. Stripes were bad yesterday.......

some of both. the packers knew that cooley was a primary receiver and yet they couldnt stop him in the first half.. they asked the packers coach for a comment and he said they knew about cooley and prepared all week,

the second half, i think that they covered him better, but also the line was so beaten up that i think they kept cooley in to try and block more
finally JC was rushed so badly towards the end he had trouble finding anyone

so a combination of several factors

[Sweepea436]

some of both. the packers knew that cooley was a primary receiver and yet they couldnt stop him in the first half.. they asked the packers coach for a comment and he said they knew about cooley and prepared all week,

the second half, i think that they covered him better, but also the line was so beaten up that i think they kept cooley in to try and block more
finally JC was rushed so badly towards the end he had trouble finding anyone

so a combination of several factors

Yeah their LDE was a menace all game....... I wonder why we didn't run a couple screen passes that way (seeing as how they were coming in almost unscathed anyways!!)

The only play I did get to see multiple times was the Moss fumble.... if he'd have followed his blockers he was golden (it looked like).... wonder why he cut it back?

[shally]

Yeah their LDE was a menace all game....... I wonder why we didn't run a couple screen passes that way (seeing as how they were coming in almost unscathed anyways!!)

The only play I did get to see multiple times was the Moss fumble.... if he'd have followed his blockers he was golden (it looked like).... wonder why he cut it back?

they did run one pass play to a back behind kampman early, but seemed to forget it..

so many poor calls it seems but when th eo line is battered nothing is likely to work well.. and then there are all those drops by the receivers.. we crippled ourselves

[redskin_rich]

they did run one pass play to a back behind kampman early, but seemed to forget it..

so many poor calls it seems but when th eo line is battered nothing is likely to work well.. and then there are all those drops by the receivers.. we crippled ourselves

We did a screen to Cooley on the right side in the 1st half.
I didn't see anything wrong with the playcalling, pretty much all of the failures were on the players.

[Sweepea436]

We did a screen to Cooley on the right side in the 1st half.
I didn't see anything wrong with the playcalling, pretty much all of the failures were on the players.

All those dropped passes sent me through the entire spectrum of symptoms most people take Pepto-Bismol for........

[WarEagle]

All those dropped passes sent me through the entire spectrum of symptoms most people take Pepto-Bismol for........

If I was the QB, I might have gone off on some folks on the sidelines (in full view of the hungry cameras). I'm happy Jason retained his composure.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

HECK MAN, the coaches can not MAKE players throw to the correct guys and execute plays. Why was the guy even behind the first down marker on 4th down and 1 (ONE DANGON YARD) and/or Campbell throw it to him when McCardell was wide open across the middle?... Should we had went for a darn near 60 yard FG instead?...punted with time running out?
Look, I understand you have problems understanding basic english and responding coherently, but what does this have to do with what I said?
Obviously we had HUGE execution problems today, that cost us the game. What I was saying (and what I am sure you will fail to understand yet again), is that in the clock-management department, the coaches do nothing to help the players out. You can't keep wasting precious seconds and timeouts in close games and expect things to go right. They can, but it just makes it that much more difficult.

I can't disagree more. The reason I am so mad is that we are good enough to beat the Pats... but we can't give them a bunch of free turnovers like we did the Packers.
Smoak, I wish I was as optimistic as you, but right now I don't see how we have proved to be able to beat the Patriots.

[Meatsnack]

...

Smoak, I wish I was as optimistic as you, but right now I don't see how we have proved to be able to beat the Patriots.I see Smoak's point. In other word's, if I close my eyes and go to my happy place - I see.. I see... a young, nubile Sophia Loren -- wait, wait, wrong happy place.

*ahem!* I also see that, factoring in some of the drops, Campbell played another excellent game. The tip-drill INT was partially Jason's fault for putting so much mustard on a short pass but Moss did get two hands on it. What I see is an offense that, when functioning at a normal level of competence, can take what defenses give them and control time of possession with long drives and score. Our Teams can play with anyone not named Hester or coached by Frank Beamer. Our defense is the equal of anyone we've played so far. The Pack's #1 passing offense couldn't do jack with their HOFer QB and all the gift field position our offense so charitably gave them.


Unfortunately, unless Buges can pull some more rabbits out of hats, I think our season is over before it has rightly begun with all the O-line injuries. I don't know how any gameplan can cope with no production from 60% of the line.

[Santheb]

This might be a bit unfounded, but does anyone think that maybe Portis is getting a bit washed up? I love the guy, but he can't stay healthy at all, and with the kind of football he plays, it almost seems as if he's played more years than he actually has. Plus, the way he runs with the football, especially on sweeps and stuff, where he carries it with two arms and the ball just dangling there out in front of his stomach is kind of stupid (someone earlier in the thread put it as "its like he's carrying a loaf of bread" and thats actually pretty accurate).

Just a few thoughts.

And Moss is no longer Santana *CBS'ing* Moss, but he is now Santana *CBS you* Moss until he proves otherwise. To me, at least.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I see Smoak's point. In other word's, if I close my eyes and go to my happy place - I see.. I see... a young, nubile Sophia Loren -- wait, wait, wrong happy place.

*ahem!* I also see that, factoring in some of the drops, Campbell played another excellent game. The tip-drill INT was partially Jason's fault for putting so much mustard on a short pass but Moss did get two hands on it. What I see is an offense that, when functioning at a normal level of competence, can take what defenses give them and control time of possession with long drives and score. Our Teams can play with anyone not named Hester or coached by Frank Beamer. Our defense is the equal of anyone we've played so far. The Pack's #1 passing offense couldn't do jack with their HOFer QB and all the gift field position our offense so charitably gave them.


Unfortunately, unless Buges can pull some more rabbits out of hats, I think our season is over before it has rightly begun with all the O-line injuries. I don't know how any gameplan can cope with no production from 60% of the line.
Campbell played a pretty good game, with the usual accuracy problem on the long ball to Lloyd and the poor decision on 4th down, and with the receivers that did not help out at all.
The problem is that the Patriots have Brady, who is having a Madden-type season. He now has 1771 passing yards, with 21 TDs and 2 INTs, and a QB rating of 128.9. I don't have to tell you how unbelievable that is, and he is just as scary watching him live as his numbers indicate.

[Meatsnack]

Campbell played a pretty good game, with the usual accuracy problem on the long ball to Lloyd and the poor decision on 4th down, and with the receivers that did not help out at all.
The problem is that the Patriots have Brady, who is having a Madden-type season. He now has 1771 passing yards, with 21 TDs and 2 INTs, and a QB rating of 128.9. I don't have to tell you how unbelievable that is, and he is just as scary watching him live as his numbers indicate.

No, I am with you, unlike Donald Rumsfeld, my happy place doesn't extend outside my head. ;) It would take the alignment of the stars to beat the Pats, especially in Gillette. It is possible, though. Randy Moss has been a non-factor against us his whole career. We are maybe the one team in football that can cover those guys. So, I am confident that, without being left on the field all game long, our defense can at least contain the Pats.

My questions all center around our being able to score. Samuel gives the Pats the ability to play "man-over" with Rodney Harrison playing in the box and Merriweather or Wilson giving deep help. The Pats D-line plus OLBs vs. our chewed-up O-line is a "no mas" style mismatch in their favor. With our line healthy, I think we can run on anyone. Now, I don't know what we can do against the Cards next week. :cry:

[SpicyMcHaggis]

No, I am with you, unlike Donald Rumsfeld, my happy place doesn't extend outside my head. ;) It would take the alignment of the stars to beat the Pats, especially in Gillette. It is possible, though. Randy Moss has been a non-factor against us his whole career. We are maybe the one team in football that can cover those guys. So, I am confident that, without being left on the field all game long, our defense can at least contain the Pats.

My questions all center around our being able to score. Samuel gives the Pats the ability to play "man-over" with Rodney Harrison playing in the box and Merriweather or Wilson giving deep help. The Pats D-line plus OLBs vs. our chewed-up O-line is a "no mas" style mismatch in their favor. With our line healthy, I think we can run on anyone. Now, I don't know what we can do against the Cards next week. :cry:
Yeah, the offensive line could really be a problem (and it's not our fault, we have been ioncredibly unlucky). If anyone of the guys that went down yesterday are out for an extended period of time (especially Rabach), we are really in huge trouble.

[smoak]

that was a legitimate strategy querstion (going for 2 last week) not a criticism.

Like it or not Smoak I am not the only one critical of this coaching staff. I give credit where credit is due but the following facts have NEVER changed:

1.) Time management: We have blown more time outs and lost more time in crucial situations then I ever imagined a Gibbs coached team.

2.) Half time adjustments: We lose more games when leading at halftime then any other team over the last 4 seasons, that is a statistical fact. We are getting outcoached in-game. Another thing I never thought I would see with a GIbbs coached team

3.) Inconsistency: We are consistently inconsistent. We constantly play to the level of our opponent with Detroit last week being the rare exception.

Smoak why nis it you don't jump on others in this thread who have made more strenous points about the coaching of this game then me when I just pointed out these things are issues? Why do I get your disdain but not the others that point out my same points? You want me to be your foil, fine, I am a big boy I can take it. But please *read* my posts and digest them before blindly responding.

I agree with most of what you say are issues (I think "time management" is an issue, but not to the degree that some make it out to be). The lack opf consistency and ability to close out games is maddening and is proving to be our undoing. If we fail this season, I look forward to the roster being blown up and starting from scratch. :rolleyes:

I actually think I do debate with others that have differeing points (ask Spicy). I think there are 4 major contributors as to why I often debate with you.

1) I only bother replying to people I respect.
2) I find your knack for whining so annoying that I'd rather have George Bush teach me calculus than read your posts sometimes. I mean you can take a thread about recipes for lemon bars and tie it to the failures of the FO and/or coaching staff. If you are not the most vocally critical, then you are certainly top 3.
3) I'm not on nearly as much as I used to so I mainly go to threads where I've responded to look for conversations with people I know (see #1)

and most importantly

4) You said it yourself that to you being a fan is "second guessing" and being analytical whereas for me it is first and foremost an emotional commitment. We're opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to our own definitions of what it means to be a fan and bound to constantly disagree. I actually wrote a really long post on this in the thread where you claimed that being a fan was about "second guessing", but the site crapped out on me and I never bothered to re-write it.

I'm glad to accept the differences and ignore our conversations going forward. I'll just internalize the annoyance and think of Bush trying to explaing the concept of derivitives to a class.

[smoak]

why i like campbell...from the article above:



That is true leadership here and something his teammates are going to admire


Couldn't agree more (am I still allowed to reply when I agree?), but I hope privately he rips into Moss. In the NFL, every game is too important to pull a stunt like that yesterday and then basically say "my bad".

I look for Moss to have 100-150 and two TDs next week (if healthy) or we may risk losing him mentally for the season.

[wewantdallas]

I think the whole notion of Moss taking himself out warrants its own thread, because that's a really interesting thing that he did and is really causing a lot of opposite reactions from people.

Personally, after seeing him interviewed this morning, I hate what he did. Absolutely hate it. Taking yourself out for injury is one thing, but taking yourself out because you can't mentally get in the game ... that just sends a really poor message to your teammates.

Now I'm not questioning Moss' heart. I think it's in the right place and he's done so much for us in the past. But I think, for some reason, he's been very frustrated this year, and he gave in to self pity yesterday. In my opinion, that was the FINAL thing he did yesterday that hurt his team. He can say he took himself out for the sake of the team, but I don't buy that. He took himself out because he gave in to self pity. As long as injuries were not a problem, he should have stayed in there and plugged away for his team until the bitter end.

I remember a game against the Giants back in '91 when Clark was having a terrible game. He dropped a sure TD in the first half and the 'Skins were shut out. He came back and caught the same pass in the fourth quarter for a score to give the team a huge win. You cannot quit on yourself OR your team, not because you "don't feel mentally right." What the hell is that???

He needs to take a shot of prozac, get his head out of his gludial cleft, dump that bizarre tuxedo-like shirt he was wearing under his jersey and start leading this team again like a man.

[Keino]

They can be blamed for awful clock management, which for whatever reason quite simply cannot or will not be addressed by the coaches themselves. You call a timeout on 3rd down, and you waste another one on 4th down? You should have had two plays ready to go under the circumstance that you knew it was two down territory. then to not take a TO before the 2min warning was assinine.

I agree with you that the players had more to do with today's loss, but the leaders of this team absolutely suck when it comes to this one crucial element, and after almost four years, there isn't any sign of improvement.

This post saved me the trouble.

Yes, the players failed to execute, but the coaches seem to look like a deer in headlights when the clock gets down below 3:00 and they actually have to manage the thing. It is beyond ridiculous, and I hope the media HAMMERS Gibbs on this issue today. This problem has been constant throughout this regime and not isolated incidents as Gibbs will try and have us believe. All we needed to do was tie the damn game!!!!

[JsMaViSd]

This post saved me the trouble.

Yes, the players failed to execute, but the coaches seem to look like a deer in headlights when the clock gets down below 3:00 and they actually have to manage the thing. It is beyond ridiculous, and I hope the media HAMMERS Gibbs on this issue today. This problem has been constant throughout this regime and not isolated incidents as Gibbs will try and have us believe. All we needed to do was tie the damn game!!!!

this is true and for some reason when were down and the 4th quarter is winding down, i get this feeling in my stomach that knows its not gonna happen for us, because that coaching seems lost

[SpicyMcHaggis]

This post saved me the trouble.

Yes, the players failed to execute, but the coaches seem to look like a deer in headlights when the clock gets down below 3:00 and they actually have to manage the thing. It is beyond ridiculous, and I hope the media HAMMERS Gibbs on this issue today. This problem has been constant throughout this regime and not isolated incidents as Gibbs will try and have us believe. All we needed to do was tie the damn game!!!!
This reason this issue infuriates me is that it is not a matter of physical performance on the field, or of having or not the talent to be in the NFL, or injuries, or anything like that. It is a simple matter of not panicking when you are in certain situations, and just make decisions that a 15 year old boy could understand are the correct ones. I doubt that Gibbs is a stupid man. But sometimes these decision leave me speechless. It was excruciating watching the clock tick down to the 2 minute mark, with Aikman (correctly) saying that what we were doing made no sense at all. And I have no idea how during that time, NOBODY went up to Gibbs and told him "Coach, wake up, we have to take a timeout right now". How is it possible that Gibbs does not understand that? I mean, he's been coaching for almost 20 years now. Come on...
And don't even get me started on those two consecutive TOs. Those were just embarassing.
Once again, this is not rocket science. Anybody from a 12 year old girl to an ex-QB who has had god knows how many concussions understands what should be done in those situations. And not ONE person out of the about 100 that are on our bench can do the same? Good grief..we must have a collective IQ of about 7 over there on our bench. We would just be better off doing the exact opposite of what our coaches think is right in those situations.
Man, I better stop now, because the more I think about it, the angrier I get.

[CNYSkinFan]

the coaches need to run the two minute drill along with the offense this week. They should devote a whole practice to it. Or maybe two. It is getting annoying.

[JsMaViSd]

This reason this issue infuriates me is that it is not a matter of physical performance on the field, or of having or not the talent to be in the NFL, or injuries, or anything like that. It is a simple matter of not panicking when you are in certain situations, and just make decisions that a 15 year old boy could understand are the correct ones. I doubt that Gibbs is a stupid man. But sometimes these decision leave me speechless. It was excruciating watching the clock tick down to the 2 minute mark, with Aikman (correctly) saying that what we were doing made no sense at all. And I have no idea how during that time, NOBODY went up to Gibbs and told him "Coach, wake up, we have to take a timeout right now". How is it possible that Gibbs does not understand that? I mean, he's been coaching for almost 20 years now. Come on...
And don't even get me started on those two consecutive TOs. Those were just embarassing.
Once again, this is not rocket science. Anybody from a 12 year old girl to an ex-QB who has had god knows how many concussions understands what should be done in those situations. And not ONE person out of the about 100 that are on our bench can do the same? Good grief..we must have a collective IQ of about 7 over there on our bench. We would just be better off doing the exact opposite of what our coaches think is right in those situations.
Man, I better stop now, because the more I think about it, the angrier I get.

this is also a good point. I couldnt believe they let 30 seconds just fly away

[wewantdallas]

And I have no idea how during that time, NOBODY went up to Gibbs and told him "Coach, wake up, we have to take a timeout right now".

That's exactly what I was saying to my Packers fan friend yesterday while watching it. Okay, maybe Gibbs is at that age where he is losing the ability to always be up on these things....maybe .... but that also applies to EVERY COACH AND PLAYER ON THE TEAM???? Why there was no one screaming at him to call the timeout is beyond me.

Then again, the Packers were equally stupid on their fourth down, when they punted the ball with about 15 seconds still left on the play clock (they could have run it all the way down and taken a delay or called a timeout at "1"). In a way, that gave us back most of the time we lost. Not that that makes it in any way less embarrassing.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

That's exactly what I was saying to my Packers fan friend yesterday while watching it. Okay, maybe Gibbs is at that age where he is losing the ability to always be up on these things....maybe .... but that also applies to EVERY COACH AND PLAYER ON THE TEAM???? Why there was no one screaming at him to call the timeout is beyond me.

Then again, the Packers were equally stupid on their fourth down, when they punted the ball with about 15 seconds still left on the play clock (they could have run it all the way down and taken a delay or called a timeout at "1"). In a way, that gave us back most of the time we lost. Not that that makes it in any way less embarrassing.
If I were Campbell, I would have just said "***CBS*** this, I'm calling the time out myself." And if any coach had the courage to criticize me, I would have recommended that they go back and study 2nd grade math before they talk to me.

[Keino]

This reason this issue infuriates me is that it is not a matter of physical performance on the field, or of having or not the talent to be in the NFL, or injuries, or anything like that. It is a simple matter of not panicking when you are in certain situations, and just make decisions that a 15 year old boy could understand are the correct ones. I doubt that Gibbs is a stupid man. But sometimes these decision leave me speechless. It was excruciating watching the clock tick down to the 2 minute mark, with Aikman (correctly) saying that what we were doing made no sense at all. And I have no idea how during that time, NOBODY went up to Gibbs and told him "Coach, wake up, we have to take a timeout right now". How is it possible that Gibbs does not understand that? I mean, he's been coaching for almost 20 years now. Come on...
And don't even get me started on those two consecutive TOs. Those were just embarassing.
Once again, this is not rocket science. Anybody from a 12 year old girl to an ex-QB who has had god knows how many concussions understands what should be done in those situations. And not ONE person out of the about 100 that are on our bench can do the same? Good grief..we must have a collective IQ of about 7 over there on our bench. We would just be better off doing the exact opposite of what our coaches think is right in those situations.
Man, I better stop now, because the more I think about it, the angrier I get.

Right. Why do we call T.O. on 3rd down and then again on 4th down? WTF. You should have 2 plays on tap and the 4th down play should've been no huddle.....Campbell should've made a better read on that play as well, but the fact remains that we wasted a Timeout that would've been better served challenging the spot of the ball (recall that Cooley got a Horrible spot and instead of 4th & 2, it should have been 4th and inches).

All this is coulda shoulda woulda but I would actually like to see an opposing team beat us as opposed to having us beat ourselves. I'm betting I get my wish in 2 weeks.

[Keino]

If I were Campbell, I would have just said "***CBS*** this, I'm calling the time out myself." And if any coach had the courage to criticize me, I would have recommended that they go back and study 2nd grade math before they talk to me.

The key thing here is that it would've forced GB to make a decision on 2nd down. They may have risked throwing the ball and an incomplete pass buys an extra clock stoppage prior to the 2 Minute warning. At worst they run the ball again, and have to run 3rd and long on a stopped clock.

We need to hire one coach who's sole job is to manage the clock......clearly nobody on the staff has been blessed with this ability.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

The key thing here is that it would've forced GB to make a decision on 2nd down. They may have risked throwing the ball and an incomplete pass buys an extra clock stoppage prior to the 2 Minute warning. At worst they run the ball again, and have to run 3rd and long on a stopped clock.

We need to hire one coach who's sole job is to manage the clock......clearly nobody on the staff has been blessed with this ability.
Isn't that pretty much all Gibbs does during the game?

[CNYSkinFan]

The key thing here is that it would've forced GB to make a decision on 2nd down. They may have risked throwing the ball and an incomplete pass buys an extra clock stoppage prior to the 2 Minute warning. At worst they run the ball again, and have to run 3rd and long on a stopped clock.

We need to hire one coach who's sole job is to manage the clock......clearly nobody on the staff has been blessed with this ability.
The last thing we need is another coach lol.

Seriously I think the problem is too many people have a say or think they have a say. Too many times I see GW jawing in Gibbs ear and I am sure Saunders is in the headset and Breaux is always around, and then you got the players.....

It's a leadership issue. Gibbs has to decide he is the one in charge and tell everyone else to get the hell away from him and let him make the decisions.

[JsMaViSd]

Right. Why do we call T.O. on 3rd down and then again on 4th down? WTF. You should have 2 plays on tap and the 4th down play should've been no huddle.....Campbell should've made a better read on that play as well, but the fact remains that we wasted a Timeout that would've been better served challenging the spot of the ball (recall that Cooley got a Horrible spot and instead of 4th & 2, it should have been 4th and inches).

All this is coulda shoulda woulda but I would actually like to see an opposing team beat us as opposed to having us beat ourselves. I'm betting I get my wish in 2 weeks.

i myself think we will not be blown out by New England

[CNYSkinFan]

i myself think we will not be blown out by New England
i think the only way that happens is if we don't get on the plane. NE is blowing out everyone....we would just be the next fish to go into the whale's mouth

[JsMaViSd]

i think the only way that happens is if we don't get on the play. NE is blowing out everyone....we would just be the next fish to go into the whale's mouth

i think we will be fine..

our defense will keep us in every game, just hopefully the offense can hold up

[redskin_rich]

i think we will be fine..

our defense will keep us in every game, just hopefully the offense can hold up

Our defense played another very good game but it was against another team that has no running game. That and Favre was throwing up gift balls all day, unfortunately our defenders also couldn't catch yesterday.
Teams like New England and Dallas are another monster all together. We are going to have our hands full and our only hope is that our offense shows up and makes plays, every play, for us to have any chance in those games. I don't expect our defense to hold either of those teams scoring in the teens.

[Keino]

i myself think we will not be blown out by New England

Maybe not, but the Redskins have not shown me one thing that indicates they can beat the best team in Football on the road.

If the Patriots lose a game this year, it will be in weeks 16 and 17 because they are resting their starters.

[skinsfan45]

The last thing we need is another coach lol.

Seriously I think the problem is too many people have a say or think they have a say. Too many times I see GW jawing in Gibbs ear and I am sure Saunders is in the headset and Breaux is always around, and then you got the players.....

It's a leadership issue. Gibbs has to decide he is the one in charge and tell everyone else to get the hell away from him and let him make the decisions.
perhaps the DECISION that he should make is to let AC run the offense for 4 quarters-- it appears that decision has been made for GW on defense and its working -- let AC do what he knows how to do, then if adjustments need to be made let AC make them-- Gibbs input needs to come during the week not on the field during the game-- i think they need to decide to trust Campbell- put an arm band on him with the plays and let him make the decisions especially in crucial situations when we've been making those dumb decisions by party and wasting timeouts -- if Jason isn't able to grow and mature by running an offensive drive, whats the point?

[dj_stouty]

Sorry I'm late to the party...

Ok, so let me get this straight. Santana Moss pulled himself out of the game because his head wasn't into it? WTF!?!?!

I love Santana just as much as the next diehard, but he really let me down on this one. On the road, at Lambeau, with a 4-1 record at stake and losing by 3 in the 4th quarter MEANS your playmakers need to be on the field giving 100%. And Moss is arguably the most talented guy on our offense. Pulling yourself out for emotional issues is selfish. Was he scared to drop another pass or fumble the ball again? Too bad. Man up and catch the next pass. Man up and hold onto the ball next time. Football players aren't supposed to run from their fears; they are paid way too much money not to. I'd rather him be on the field and make a catch to "get over" his issues, than for him to pull himself off the field and potentially let this linger into the next game.

[CNYSkinFan]

perhaps the DECISION that he should make is to let AC run the offense for 4 quarters-- it appears that decision has been made for GW on defense and its working -- let AC do what he knows how to do, then if adjustments need to be made let AC make them-- Gibbs input needs to come during the week not on the field during the game-- i think they need to decide to trust Campbell- put an arm band on him with the plays and let him make the decisions especially in crucial situations when we've been making those dumb decisions by party and wasting timeouts -- if Jason isn't able to grow and mature by running an offensive drive, whats the point?
look the idea of a HC deciding crucial situations while an OC calls plays is not unheard of. In fact it is the norm in the NFl. The problem is too many people on the Redskins sideline think they have a right to do this.

Saunders should call the plays, I agree with that. But A HC needs to nbe active on the sideline during the game. Deciding when to go for it on fourth down, when to call timeout, when to go for 2...

Saunders needs to come upn with the succesful play, but Gibbs needs to make the decision when to go for it and when not to. This works on almost every other NFL team, there is no reason it can not work on ours.

[youngestson]

They can be blamed for awful clock management, which for whatever reason quite simply cannot or will not be addressed by the coaches themselves. You call a timeout on 3rd down, and you waste another one on 4th down? You should have had two plays ready to go under the circumstance that you knew it was two down territory. then to not take a TO before the 2min warning was assinine.

I agree with you that the players had more to do with today's loss, but the leaders of this team absolutely suck when it comes to this one crucial element, and after almost four years, there isn't any siogn of improvement.

Not calling the time-out before the 2 minute warning I can not and will not defend, but the TO before the 4th down play I can understand considering there were three players not usually there, a first year starter at QB and the players had not been exacuting well all day. A moment to make sure everyone was on the same page was not unreasonable.

It didn't work out well, but I can understand the decision.

[akhhorus]

I didn't see this posted, but Santana took responsibility:

Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/14/AR2007101401246.html)

GREEN BAY, Wis., Oct. 14 -- Santana Moss came close to choking up as he flashed back on his seven-year career after his horrible afternoon Sunday at Lambeau Field, and came to the conclusion that this was in fact his worst outing in the NFL. Moss, a Pro Bowl wide receiver who set Washington's single-season receiving mark in 2005 and is revered for his highlight-reel catches, had played far too big a role in the Redskins' 17-14 loss to the Packers, and he readily admitted it.

Moss's fumble on a reverse in the third quarter was returned 57 yards for the game-winning touchdown. He has had uncharacteristic drops this season, including a botched 30-yard reception one drive after fumbling Sunday. Moss did not play again, with Coach Joe Gibbs attributing this absence to varying factors including health, and Moss saying he pulled himself from the game because of the recurrence of a hamstring problem. He did not make a catch -- Green Bay cornerback Al Harris shadowed him closely -- and his second-half demise mirrored that of the entire offense as the Redskins blew a 14-7 halftime lead.

"I can blame the rain, I can blame it on whatever, but what it comes down to is, point blank, I've just got to make those plays regardless of the situation," Moss said. "I've been that player before. I can say that I've had one of those games that I never seen myself having, but if I want to blame anybody I'll blame myself."

[dj_stouty]

Speaking of game-management issues; how about the Packers snapping the ball on the punt WAY too early...and then having the punter stick it several yards into the endzone. Bonehead series of events on that one too.

[LuvSkins17]

I have been watching highlights and if Santana would have only stayed wide,..... He had two blockers on the outside that hadn't even blocked anyone yet... he cut back and left his blocking....

Oh to have that one back...

"I just didn't feel right. I took myself out," said Moss, who left the game shortly after a costly fumble. "Something wasn't feeling right with me and why go out there and keep another guy from helping us win? ... I wasn't making the plays that I should have been making."


Here is the link from his ESPN I just found....
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3063743

[redwolf1218]

Sorry I'm late to the party...

Ok, so let me get this straight. Santana Moss pulled himself out of the game because his head wasn't into it? WTF!?!?!

I love Santana just as much as the next diehard, but he really let me down on this one. On the road, at Lambeau, with a 4-1 record at stake and losing by 3 in the 4th quarter MEANS your playmakers need to be on the field giving 100%. And Moss is arguably the most talented guy on our offense. Pulling yourself out for emotional issues is selfish. Was he scared to drop another pass or fumble the ball again? Too bad. Man up and catch the next pass. Man up and hold onto the ball next time. Football players aren't supposed to run from their fears; they are paid way too much money not to. I'd rather him be on the field and make a catch to "get over" his issues, than for him to pull himself off the field and potentially let this linger into the next game.


i'm late too. i cant find where he said his head wasnt into it and i dont feel like reading thru 15 pages of posts to find it. i wish it had not been merged with "Cant Blame the Coaches" because it has nothing to do with that, and it seems like a pretty important issue in its own right.

Moss will bounce back.

[colkurtz]

Moss just had the worst game of a really bad season for him. Wonder what is up - the offense really needs him now.

[dj_stouty]

Moss just had the worst game of a really bad season for him. Wonder what is up - the offense really needs him now.

He really doesn't seem to have any chemistry with Jason. Very odd, since you know Moss is able to get separation, yet Jason doesn't seem to target him very often. I wonder if it is a trust issue. Moss dropped a bunch of balls early into the season.

Moss and Brunell always seemed to be on the same page. Brunell may not have been able to toss it to him 40 yards downfield, but he was able to get him the ball quickly in the open field; where he excels.

Anyway, I really hope he gets over this confidence problem and brings his A-Game for the Cardinals.

[Moe]

Our defense played another very good game but it was against another team that has no running game.

At the risk of being somewhat positive, GW called another nice game and the D did just about everything you could ask, aside from...
That and Favre was throwing up gift balls all day, unfortunately our defenders also couldn't catch yesterday.

Probably hanging onto just one of those hot potatos would've changed the game. Of course, this game was rife with missed opportunities and points left on the field by the Skins. On the positive side, at least these opportunities are present, of course realistically if they don't start making them count then it won't matter.

Teams like New England and Dallas are another monster all together. We are going to have our hands full and our only hope is that our offense shows up and makes plays, every play, for us to have any chance in those games. I don't expect our defense to hold either of those teams scoring in the teens.

If the o-line stays hurt and limits the offense then it'll be bad, but I actually think that the Skins D has shown some swagger and are capable of keeping things in check, even against teams like Dallas and New England. The key will be to continue getting QB pressue, which has been a bit of a revelation, given the personnel.
To this point, Brady is amazingly comfortable back there and the results are clear. I am still not convinced that Dallas can't be taken out of their game and the Skins D in my eyes matches up well against them. We'll see in a few weeks.

[JasonCampbell]

Well...I lost in fantasy this week...by 2 points against a team with Brady. I started JC and Moss...If Moss would have caught that long pass he dropped, I would have won.

[firehawk157]

Yeah, I'm considering dumping Moss in fantasy. He costed me one of my games. In my other league, the guy had adrian peterson and Tom brady. so yeah, moss didn't cost me anything there...

[JasonCampbell]

Yeah, I'm considering dumping Moss in fantasy. He costed me one of my games. In my other league, the guy had adrian peterson and Tom brady. so yeah, moss didn't cost me anything there...

I'm pretty much stuck with him. I'm in a 20 team league, so the only WRs that are FAs are 3rd and 4th string WRs...like Lloyd :bangdesk:

[firehawk157]

Sorry dude

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Moss just had the worst game of a really bad season for him. Wonder what is up - the offense really needs him now.

I agree. Yesterday was not an aberation. His head has not been into the game this whole season.

This isn't JV, he better get his stuff together NOW!