2007/2008 College Basketball Thread: [merged]

[CarMike]

No chance you actually believe that. Who are the big guys?



Why does it matter which guys Wojo coaches? If a guy played forward can he only coach forwards? They have to know the whole game and I am sure Wojo does since he's smart guy.

A 5' 8" guy knows how to teach a "big" how to play under the basket? Okay.

What do you mean big guys? Your 8 McDonald AA's?

[RedskinsDave]

A 5' 8" guy knows how to teach a "big" how to play under the basket? Okay.

What do you mean big guys? Your 8 McDonald AA's?

So, say K was coaching the big guys or say John Thompson coached a guard. What are they thinking?!!!!!!!

You can type McD AA as many times as you want and it still doesn't make them better.

[CarMike]

So, say K was coaching the big guys or say John Thompson coached a guard. What are they thinking?!!!!!!!

You can type McD AA as many times as you want and it still doesn't make them better.
Now YOU'VE got to be one kidding.

Coach K took Josh McRoberts, the #1 overall ranked player coming out of high school his senior year, and turned him into either a late 1st or early 2nd round draft pick. Costing him millions of dollars.

And here's the head-to-head rankings coming out of high school for current players. You tell me who has done the better job with less talent.

Duke UNC
Sr. Sr.
D Nelson- #5 rated SG (5star) Q Thomas #13 rated PG ( 4star)
D McClure #13 rated SF (4star)

Jr Jr.
G Paulus #1 rated PG (5star) D Green #7 rated SG ( 4star)
M Pocius # 16 rated SG ( 4star) T Hansbrough #3 rated PF (5star)
B Frasor #12 rated SG ( 4star)
M Ginyard #15 rated SG ( 4star)
M Copeland -NR (2star)

Soph Soph
L Thomas # 4 rated PF ( 5star) A Stephenson #11 rated C (4star)
G Henderson # 5 rated SF (5star) D Thompson #5 rated C (4star)
J Scheyer # 3 rated SG ( 5star) W Ellington #1 rated SG (5star)
B Zoubek # 7 rated C ( 4star) T Lawson #1 rated PG (5star)

Fr Fr
K Singler #1 rated SF (5star) W Graves # 18 rated SF (4star)
N Smith #7 rated SG ( 4star)
T King #15 rated SF ( 4star)

UNC has 5 players who were rated Top 10 at their respective positions and Duke has 8. Add to this that UNC played 6 games without their primary PG and also the entire season w/o a significant contributor. So why do Duke fans, including some people in the media feel that Duke has less talent than UNC and that K did such a great job coaching this year.

[dj_stouty]

Now YOU'VE got to be one kidding.

Coach K took Josh McRoberts, the #1 overall ranked player coming out of high school his senior year, and turned him into either a late 1st or early 2nd round draft pick. Costing him millions of dollars.

And here's the head-to-head rankings coming out of high school for current players. You tell me who has done the better job with less talent.

Duke UNC
Sr. Sr.
D Nelson- #5 rated SG (5star) Q Thomas #13 rated PG ( 4star)
D McClure #13 rated SF (4star)

Jr Jr.
G Paulus #1 rated PG (5star) D Green #7 rated SG ( 4star)
M Pocius # 16 rated SG ( 4star) T Hansbrough #3 rated PF (5star)
B Frasor #12 rated SG ( 4star)
M Ginyard #15 rated SG ( 4star)
M Copeland -NR (2star)

Soph Soph
L Thomas # 4 rated PF ( 5star) A Stephenson #11 rated C (4star)
G Henderson # 5 rated SF (5star) D Thompson #5 rated C (4star)
J Scheyer # 3 rated SG ( 5star) W Ellington #1 rated SG (5star)
B Zoubek # 7 rated C ( 4star) T Lawson #1 rated PG (5star)

Fr Fr
K Singler #1 rated SF (5star) W Graves # 18 rated SF (4star)
N Smith #7 rated SG ( 4star)
T King #15 rated SF ( 4star)

UNC has 5 players who were rated Top 10 at their respective positions and Duke has 8. Add to this that UNC played 6 games without their primary PG and also the entire season w/o a significant contributor. So why do Duke fans, including some people in the media feel that Duke has less talent than UNC and that K did such a great job coaching this year.

Less talent? All I see is top talent on both teams. I'm not sure what the argument is. Both teams are stacked.

[Keino]

The argument is over who does the least with the most. Clearly that is Coach K.

Sincerely,

Maryland Grad.


Speaking of arguments, can we safely put to bet the Singletary/Dixon argument that you wanted to wait until this year to put to bed?

[MPCSkins]

Mike Jones was the #2 SG coming out of high school behind Lebron James. They were both McDonald's All Americans. Does anyone even know who Mike Jones is anymore when his name is thrown in there like that with Lebron?

[RedskinsDave]

Mike Jones was the #2 SG coming out of high school behind Lebron James. They were both McDonald's All Americans. Does anyone even know who Mike Jones is anymore when his name is thrown in there like that with Lebron?

Thank you. That proves my point. I am quite sure that many of the kids who go to Duke GET their McD AA ratings based on being recruited by teams like Duke.

I am also sick a tired of the argument that K turns the players into lesser NBA players as if the kids themselves had no control. It's a retarded argument. Also, the argument about the players from Duke who become stars or don't in the NBA. I don't know how many times it needs to be stated (apparently often for non-Duke fans) but college coaches are coaching to do well in college. It's a NBA coaches responsibility to have them win at that level.

[CarMike]

Less talent? All I see is top talent on both teams. I'm not sure what the argument is. Both teams are stacked.

The argument is that i'm tired of DSPN and every other outlet making people think that coach Rat does more with less. They have 8 McD's AA on their team. Dave said that if Roy was half the coach that K was, he'd have his team undefeated. Yet, Roy just beat K in his own gym on Senior night.

[CarMike]

So it's not K's fault when he gets highly recruited players, and they don't improve? That's why dook players don't succeed in the NBA. K forces players to play to his style instead of trying to get them prepared for the NBA.

Once again, K puts himself and program infront of his recruits and players.

Dave, it's been stated over and over from serveral different NBA managers who have said, "getting a guy from UNC is wonderful. They're ready for the next level by the time they arrive".

It is the coaches responsibility to make them better players.

[RedskinsDave]

Geez, you're acting worse than Redskins fans who can't admit when a Cowboys player is actually good. You can keep thinking he sucks. I will watch him retire as the winningest coach in college basketball history.

[skinfanjon]

NEWSFLASH: They're both good coaches and have way too much talent.

[SkinsKY]

The argument is that i'm tired of DSPN and every other outlet making people think that coach Rat does more with less. They have 8 McD's AA on their team. Dave said that if Roy was half the coach that K was, he'd have his team undefeated. Yet, Roy just beat K in his own gym on Senior night.

I don't like K at all but from what I see, a lot of those McDAA' get given to dookies after they commit to dook. If they went to Purdue or somewhere, they wouldn't be rated so highly. There's actually a pretty good running joke on a UK blog I read that anyone can be an AA if they just commit to Coach K. I think many of those kids' ratings are inflated because of the school they chose rather than where their talent level actually resides. I think K is a very good teacher, and it hurts to say that, but most of his kids hit their ceiling in college. I'm not trying to defend him, even though it seems that way, but having consistent success despite not having NBA caliber kids, seems to build the case for K being a good coach.

Having said that, dook sucks and I think Roy's better.

[Patrick]

Congrats to Mount St. Marys .................. nice to see Maryland will still have a representitive in the NCAAs.

[CarMike]

Geez, you're acting worse than Redskins fans who can't admit when a Cowboys player is actually good. You can keep thinking he sucks. I will watch him retire as the winningest coach in college basketball history.

Dave, you started this by saying that Roy isn't the coach that K is. Now you're saying that its not K's fault his players don't get better under his watch. Which is it?

[dj_stouty]

Speaking of arguments, can we safely put to bet the Singletary/Dixon argument that you wanted to wait until this year to put to bed?

I've all but forgoten our argument. I still think Singletary is great. Is he better than Dixon? In several ways; yes...but as you will point out, Sean doesn't have the ring. So I certainly conceede.

Sean had zippy help around him this year; in part to injuries and insufficient replacement talent. If Singletary had a Wilcox or Baxter on his team this year, they would certainly be in the NCAA right now; but I wont' live in fantasy land. It was tiring watching him score 41 and 34 points against ACC opponents this year and still have the team lose. And despite all that...and him averaging 20 points a game, the guy still averaged about 6 assists per game. Not too much else you can ask for from a standout guard.

[RedskinsDave]

Dave, you started this by saying that Roy isn't the coach that K is. Now you're saying that its not K's fault his players don't get better under his watch. Which is it?

I didn't agree they don't get better. They are what they are and they win at the level he's paid to win under. That's great UNC has guys that excel at the next level. It means nothing while they're in college. That's where college coaches are supposed to coach them. I'd say K does just fine and there's a reason he's coaching the U.S. team.

[MONK_in_HOF]

NEWSFLASH: They're both good coaches and have way too much talent.

Agreed. It is really hard to say who is the better coach of the 2 b/c they usually have such a talent advantage. McD AA or not, the majority of kids they sign are ranked in at least the top 15 in the nation at their position by most recruiting services. Rarely do these teams lose and it isn't considered an upset. Anyhow I am not saying either aren't good coaches b/c of this, but it makes it a lot easier on them constantly having a talent advantage.

It would be interesting to see how Roy or K would have faired coaching any of the other ACC teams this year, with the rosters the way they are. Or to see a coach of another ACC team coach with 1 of their rosters.

I know recruiting is part of college coaching, but at this point these 2 programs basically recruit themselves. However I do have to give coach K credit for building Duke into what it has become, whereas UNC has a longer standing tradition that was amplified heavily by #23 and many other successful pros prior to Roy coming in as the head man.

Of the 2, Roy's system better prepares his players for the NBA. Coach K's system is about as sharp a contrast as you can find to NBA basketball. Many tactics that work great in college don't cut it in the NBA. So it could be argued that K is a lesser coach b/c many of his players fail to meet expectations in the NBA and that he only uses their talents more for his interests not theirs. Or it could be argued he is a greater coach b/c he got more out of less individually gifted, or unmotivated players.

[CarMike]

Yeah, no one else wanted to coach that bunch of spoiled so called basketball players....

[Keino]

Honestly and this sucks to say, but Coach K is the better coach between the 2. Looking at the entire body of work, which includes Roy's years at Kansas, there is simply no comparison. How many years did Roy have one of the most talented teams in the NCAA only to bow out early at Kansas? How many times did K take less than NBA level talent to the Final 4?

Roy's only ring came with mostly Matt Doherty's recruits (May, McCants & Felton). Really, TarHeel Fans, I don't see how this can be reasonably disputed and I have a healthy hatred of all things Duke and mere dislike for Carolina.

Coach K has proven to be the better coach of the two.

Now Im off to take a shower to wash the filth of having to give praise to a Blue Devil.

[skinfanjon]

Well, that's that. What a gutless effort against a bad BC team. They deserve to be watching the dance on TV. I just hope VCU gets in, there's been several mid major upsets that could cost them....I still think they slide in, though.

Bottom line, the the UMD leaders just didn't do enough. Vasquez, Gist, and Osby, I'm looking in your direction. Not the best job by Gary either, they haven't learned much of anything from what I've seen.

[MPCSkins]

Well, that's that. What a gutless effort against a bad BC team. They deserve to be watching the dance on TV. I just hope VCU gets in, there's been several mid major upsets that could cost them....I still think they slide in, though.

Bottom line, the the UMD leaders just didn't do enough. Vasquez, Gist, and Osby, I'm looking in your direction. Not the best job by Gary either, they haven't learned much of anything from what I've seen.

What? They blew a lead? No way. That doesn't sound like the Terps... or the Redskins for that matter.

[Patrick]

Well, that's that. What a gutless effort against a bad BC team. They deserve to be watching the dance on TV. I just hope VCU gets in, there's been several mid major upsets that could cost them....I still think they slide in, though.

Bottom line, the the UMD leaders just didn't do enough. Vasquez, Gist, and Osby, I'm looking in your direction. Not the best job by Gary either, they haven't learned much of anything from what I've seen.

There's the problem - MD has no floor leader.
Now all that's left is to lose in the first round of the NIT and it will be as I perdicted. .............. Sad for us Terp fans that this team never really came together.
Agree about Gary not having a great coaching season - but having a team with 10 fresh/soph is always a challenge. Hopefully next year some of these kids will develop and mature.

[Keino]

I am disgusted with Maryland. Thrilled with Georgetown. I wish they could be great in the same season.

[smoot]

did anybody really expect maryland to win? this is one of the worst stretches of basketball i can remember.

also....lots and lots of fans are calling for williams head, and should an adequate replacement be found, i might just agree

[Keino]

Blowing 15 and 20 point Halftime leads, consistently, is just inexcusable.

I don't think Gary will be fired. 2002 bought him a lot of leeway, but his rope is going to get smaller and smaller. We don't like being left out of the field of 64 in College Park.

[MONK_in_HOF]

This was quite frustrating season to be a Terps fan. They had very poor fundamentals and even worse bball IQ. Having watched them throw away at least 6 games this year, this team certainly wasn't clutch.v They displayed far too little heart, far too often. I agree with others that said they had no true floor leader and even worse I think they had at least 3 players who thought they were.

Their supposed floor leader is more concerned with talking trash to the opponents and the opposing crowd than helping his team. Actually I think his trash talking works against him. Vasquez all too often seems to get caught up in a 1-on-1 battle trying to outshine his trash talking counterpart and commonly results in his play hurting the team, while many times sparking the other player and team. I think his arrogance prevents him from being a leader.

Many of the problems plaguing MD seem correctable, which combined with what I read about lack of effort in recruiting makes me wonder if it is really time for Gary to go. But then I remember how pathetic this team was to start the season and they really did make a vast improvement, well until they fell apart in the last 8 games. This program post national championship has been a debacle. Gary needs to step it up. I have seen 5th graders with more saavy on the court than MD displays.

[MPCSkins]

Bring on Chuck Driesell. This team has made the NCAAs once out of the last 4 years. How is that possible after winning the national championship in 2002? The recruiting is terrible. The recruiting class after the championship was awful, with a class that got arrested more than they won. All the teams that have won the national championship recently are doing well except for us. I think gary needs to take a good hard look at himself and the way he recruits because it seems like he could have pulled in much better talent.

[Keino]

I've always said the Dixon-Blake success was a curse, because it made Gary think he can win Titles by focusing on the mid-tier recruit. Dixon/Baxter/Blake were the exception, not the rule. You have to land some top talent once in a while.

[hail2skins]

I've always said the Dixon-Blake success was a curse, because it made Gary think he can win Titles by focusing on the mid-tier recruit. Dixon/Baxter/Blake were the exception, not the rule. You have to land some top talent once in a while.I played golf with some UM students on Thursday and this was a point they bought up about his recruitment. He doesn't go for the real talent.

[SkinsKY]

I played golf with some UM students on Thursday and this was a point they bought up about his recruitment. He doesn't go for the real talent.

It's the same thing that ultimately brought Tubby down too. He got decent kids and hoped to coach them into a great team. He did well, but if you missed on some kids, like Gary and Tubby both, it puts you at a serious talent deficiency.

[RedskinsDave]

You all HAVE to see the end of the Minn-Ind game. Awesome.

[BostonSkins]

You all HAVE to see the end of the Minn-Ind game. Awesome.

Anyone know if that kid is lefty or did he throw up a left handed shot as a righty?

Turns out the same kid hit a shot sitting on the floor from almost three point range in the Minnesota State HS Finals and won an ESPY.

[The Skinsinator]

Wow Hansbrough makes a buzzer beater to knock off pesky Virginia Tech! Now Clemson and Duke battle.

[CarMike]

Better coach will be coaching in the ACC finals. Too bad K will not be the one.

Roy > Krybaby

[WarEagle]

You all HAVE to see the end of the Minn-Ind game. Awesome.

Here it is. Really amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51znupszPw

edit: Minnesota lost to Illinois on Saturday.

[The Skinsinator]

Better coach will be coaching in the ACC finals. Too bad K will not be the one.

Roy > KrybabyBut they are healthy and even if they weren't no one would know about it. :D Clemson and Tech both played admirably today. I don't really care about the acc tourney though what matters to me starts on Thursday.

[RedskinsDave]

Better coach will be coaching in the ACC finals. Too bad K will not be the one.

Roy > Krybaby

Roy has no reason to cry. He got like 19 of the last 20 calls go his team's way. I was watching with fans of all different teams and everyone agreed it looked like the ACC had the fix in.

[CarMike]

Your 2007-2008 regular season and ACC tournament Champions....

University of North Carolina Tar Heels!

dook over their past 9 games...5-4. Another great choke job by supposedly the the best college coach ever.

:awesomewo

[CarMike]

Roy has no reason to cry. He got like 19 of the last 20 calls go his team's way. I was watching with fans of all different teams and everyone agreed it looked like the ACC had the fix in.

Yeah, those damn officials! If not for them, UNC wouldn't ever win a game. :rolleyes:

Check this out Dave. Clemson shot two more FT's than UNC. Yet, the refs and the ACC fixed the game.

Clemson FT: 14-26

UNC FT: 14-24

And I can't help but laugh my ass off when a dook fan talks about refs and games! How quick you guys forget all of the assistance you get from them. A la the game clock last year.

It's good to be on top. K may need another back surgery next year. Back to back Regular season titles and back to back ACCT Champions.

[The Skinsinator]

Well UNC has locked up the acc in two very hard fought last games. Now the real work starts on Thur/Fri. Been a super season with only 1 ending satisfying all Heels.

[RedskinsDave]

The number of free throws is meaningless. It's when and how the calls are made that matters. I guess Seth was just being a whiner with his astonished looks at some of the calls. If the games weren't played in Carolina and you had an even crowd you'd have seen them up in arms yesterday. As it is, it's a home game for the NC teams.

[SkinsKY]

Even in a bad year, the SEC still sneaks in 6. I see a lot of first round exits in those six, but maybe we'll keep surprising.

[RedskinsDave]

I actually think UNC got screwed by maybe having to play a team in the second round that was ranked in the top 20 this season.

[RedskinsDave]

I actually think UNC got screwed by maybe having to play a team in the second round that was ranked in the top 20 this season.

I kind of take this back after seeing that UNC won't play outside of Carolina until the Final Four.

[smoak]

I actually think UNC got screwed by maybe having to play a team in the second round that was ranked in the top 20 this season.

While I tend to agree, if this was another team, my reaction would be, "stop whining. to be the best you have to beat the best" so I am geared up and ready to roll.

Re: playing near home, isn't that the advantage of being the #1 overall seed? I thought they tried to keep you as close as possible? Either way, the Heels need to play better than they did this weekend (especially against VT).

[RedskinsDave]

I think UNC being the overall 1 seed tells us how average this year is in terms of talent. Don't get all crazy, I am not saying they suck or anything. Even UNC fans have to admit the 2005 team would eat this one for lunch and don't even talk about comparing this one to the team in 97-98 who didn't even win the whole thing.

[smoak]

I think UNC being the overall 1 seed tells us how average this year is in terms of talent. Don't get all crazy, I am not saying they suck or anything. Even UNC fans have to admit the 2005 team would eat this one for lunch and don't even talk about comparing this one to the team in 97-98 who didn't even win the whole thing.

I haven't followed college bball nearly as much this year b/c I am just now recovering from the disappointment of the Redskins season (my enthusiasm for all things sports related trends with the Redskins success b/c I get depressed -- as it pertains to sports only). Now that I am finally watching every game for the Heels, I asked my wife this weekend, "How is this a 2 loss team and a # 1 overall seed?". Clemson played a great game and is a good team (IMO), but we were beating ourselves against VT. We should have blown the doors off them, but out play was sloppy...

I will say that if we get Ty Lawson back to 100% (and he clearly is not despite the ramblings of a certain bald ESPN commentator), this team has everything you look for in a national champion. They have the inside/outside game with a good 6th man, a solid defender and top PG. The just have to cut the STUPID unforced turnovers and play better team defense like they did against Duke.

I'm much less confident in 2005, but I think compared to the field (your original point), I think we have a great opportunity.

[Keino]

I would just like to repeat, since my well thought out post on the previous page was flat-out ignored. There is no way one can line-up the respective coaching careers of Roy Williams and Coach K and come away with the impression that Williams is the better coach. No way.

[RedskinsDave]

I would just like to repeat, since my well thought out post on the previous page was flat-out ignored. There is no way one can line-up the respective coaching careers of Roy Williams and Coach K and come away with the impression that Williams is the better coach. No way.

Oh I saw it. I agreed fully. I didn't want to pile on though.

[ChapelHillMatt]

I would just like to repeat, since my well thought out post on the previous page was flat-out ignored. There is no way one can line-up the respective coaching careers of Roy Williams and Coach K and come away with the impression that Williams is the better coach. No way.

Well I didn't see your post but I'll make the argument that he's a better coach now than K is. Obviously his career numbers aren't going to stack up because he hasn't been coaching as long but since coming to UNC 5 years ago he has accomplished the following...

Year 1 (19-11) 2nd round exit
Year 2 (33-4) National Champions
Year 3 (23-8) 2nd round exit
Year 4 (31-7) Elite 8 exit....ACC Champions
Year 5 (32-2) ACC Champs.....???

2 ACC championships and 1 National Title with the possibility of winning 2 in 5 years.

He also reached 500 wins quicker than any other coach in the history of the game, not to mention having the highest winning percentage of any current coach out there.

He's known as the best recruiter in the game as well as a great teacher. He was inducted into the HOF this past season and deservedly so, he's a great great coach and has outcoached K since coming to UNC. He just doesn't have the career numbers K does because he started so late.

He's as good of a coach as K is though, the fact that he's going head to head with coach K and holding his own should show you that.

What he's done at UNC is amazing, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise. He came to UNC and inherited an absolute mess. That team Doherty left him was a team full of me first players, at no point did they ever play as a team under Doherty. Players were snapping at one another and threatening to transfer. Roy had to come in and build a trust level with them and show them how to win as a team. He took that team and won a National Title in only 2 years.....incredible.

Then they all left and he had to start from scratch. He took a team full of role players and one stud freshman and won 23 games and finished 2nd in the ACC.

Then the last two years he's won over 30 games with an extremely talented albiet young team.

He's taken UNC and put them back on the map after Doherty and Gut had us stuck in mediocrity, I remember 8-20, it wasn't that long ago.

[ChapelHillMatt]

I think UNC being the overall 1 seed tells us how average this year is in terms of talent. Don't get all crazy, I am not saying they suck or anything. Even UNC fans have to admit the 2005 team would eat this one for lunch and don't even talk about comparing this one to the team in 97-98 who didn't even win the whole thing.

The 2005 team would not eat this team's lunch, are you crazy? I mean I loved that team and do feel they were more athletic but this team is a great team in their own right.

I know if the 2005 team would have lost Felton for a considerable stretch of games they would have been in huge trouble, this team lost Lawson and just kept on winning.

Two different teams, both getting the same result and that's winning and winning a lot. We'll see if the 2008 version is able to finish the job like the 2005 team did.

[RedskinsDave]

LMAO, he inherited a title team. Unreal.

[Keino]

One of my arguments, on the original post re: Roy Williams was that the 2005 National championship depended HEAVILY on Matt Doherty recruits (May, McCants and Felton). Roy has never won a thing on the basis of his own recruiting and his own recruits. Again, seriously, how can anyone make a straight faced argument that Roy is or ever has been a better coach than Coach K?

Now if you Carolina fans want to talk Dean Smith, well then you have an argument, but Roy Williams/Coach K comparison is a no-brainer to anyone not blinded by Carolina Blue. The Tar on your heels is affecting your brains. May I suggest wearing shoes on those newly paved roads?

Edit: Also - Gutheridge in only 3 seasons went to 2 Final Fours and was named Naismith Coach of the Year once. Far from Mediocrity.

[dj_stouty]

The Tar on your heels is affecting your brains.

LMAO!

[ChapelHillMatt]

One of my arguments, on the original post re: Roy Williams was that the 2005 National championship depended HEAVILY on Matt Doherty recruits (May, McCants and Felton). Roy has never won a thing on the basis of his own recruiting and his own recruits. Again, seriously, how can anyone make a straight faced argument that Roy is or ever has been a better coach than Coach K?


Edit: Also - Gutheridge in only 3 seasons went to 2 Final Fours and was named Naismith Coach of the Year once. Far from Mediocrity.

So your argument is there is no way he could have landed Raymond Felton, Rashad McCants, or Sean May? Your argument is Matt Doherty is a better recruiter than Roy Williams?

Stupidest argument I've ever heard. Roy didn't inherit a title team, he inherited talented players he had to turn into a title team.

This argument is the stupidest one I've ever heard and I've heard it a lot. people that make it have no clue.

As far as Guthridge, that's someone that inherited some good teams, his recruiting was not good. One of his final fours came as a 8th seed, his regular seasons left a lot to be desired.

Listen, I have been a UNC fan for over 20 years, I follow this program very closely. Roy did not come into a good situation, the two of you really don't know what you are talkiing about.

Lastly if Roy is ripped for not winning it all, then start ripping K, what's he done since 2001? Absolutely nothing, that's what.

[RedskinsDave]

It's only a stupid argument because it pisses all over your kool-aid. I'll let Keino rip you to shreds on his own regarding the rest of what you wrote.

This one made me laugh hard though:

he inherited talented players he had to turn into a title team

Beautiful.

[ChapelHillMatt]

It's only a stupid argument because it pisses all over your kool-aid. I'll let Keino rip you to shreds on his own regarding the rest of what you wrote.

This one made me laugh hard though:



Beautiful.

No it's a stupid argument because it's not true, explain to me how Matt Doherty is a better recruiter than Roy Williams and how Roy Williams couldn't have landed those 3 studs, I'd love to hear it, I really would.

Neither one of you are using your brains here, I've readily admitted that K has had a great career and has unbelievable numbers but to suggest Roy isn't great in his own right is nothing more than blind hatred on your part.

[RedskinsDave]

No it's a stupid argument because it's not true, explain to me how Matt Doherty is a better recruiter than Roy Williams and how Roy Williams couldn't have landed those 3 studs, I'd love to hear it, I really would.

Neither one of you are using your brains here, I've readily admitted that K has had a great career and has unbelievable numbers but to suggest Roy isn't great in his own right is nothing more than blind hatred on your part.

Be careful with the continuing stupid accusations and not using your brain. You're not the right person to toss that stuff out there.

Prove he couldn't have recruited them? Are you serious? I made the sun come up today. Prove I didn't. It's up isn't it?

[Keino]

So your argument is there is no way he could have landed Raymond Felton, Rashad McCants, or Sean May? Your argument is Matt Doherty is a better recruiter than Roy Williams?

Stupidest argument I've ever heard. Roy didn't inherit a title team, he inherited talented players he had to turn into a title team.

This argument is the stupidest one I've ever heard and I've heard it a lot. people that make it have no clue.

As far as Guthridge, that's someone that inherited some good teams, his recruiting was not good. One of his final fours came as a 8th seed, his regular seasons left a lot to be desired.

Listen, I have been a UNC fan for over 20 years, I follow this program very closely. Roy did not come into a good situation, the two of you really don't know what you are talkiing about.

Lastly if Roy is ripped for not winning it all, then start ripping K, what's he done since 2001? Absolutely nothing, that's what.


No, my argument is really much simpler than that. Roy has not achieved half of what Coach K has achieved, and whether or not he could've landed those players really doesn't matter. He inhereted those players, but has NEVER and I mean NEVER won a National Title with his own recruits. In his years at Kansas he made exactly 2 Final 4s. TWO (From 1988-2003). Hell, Gary Williams has more than that at Maryland, in much less time (And he also took over a program that was on probation). So Matt Doherty has nothing to do with my argument, other than he provided 3 of the key cogs to Roy's only national title. Coach K on the other hand........

Roy came into a great situation from a talent perspective. The bad situation was the fact that Doherty had some issues and that the parents of said star players were about to have their kids transfer. This was national news, not some closely guarded secret only available to those to Tobbacy Road. Again, the argument that Williams is a better coach than Krzewwkefbwjkwjkefbswrkeski is preposterous.

As for Gutheridge, yes, he took Dean's recruits. But isn't taking an 8 Seed to a final 4 a sign of a good coach, especially when compared to a guy who consistently took 1-4 Seeds that got bounced by round 2 of the tourney? That to me is not a strike against Gutheridge, but an argument in his favor. He did beat a 1 seed and a 4 seed to get there after all.

PS. When Doherty was winning the AP coach of the year Award, I wonder what you were saying about him then? I mean the 8-20 squad was largely comprise of Freshmen (Including the 3 stars).

Coach K > Roy Williams

And as I mentioned earlier, I hate Duke much more than I do UNC. It's not even close.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Be careful with the continuing stupid accusations and not using your brain. You're not the right person to toss that stuff out there.


What is that a warning from a mod? Didn't Kieno basically same the same thing to me in his earlier post? I never called you stupid, I simply said you are making a stupid argument and you are, I won't back off of that at all. This argument people make doesn't make sense. If they would think about what they were saying then they would realize how silly it sounds.

Ban me I don't care, if I get banned for that then you'd probably be doing me a favor.

[RedskinsDave]

What is that a warning from a mod? Didn't Kieno basically same the same thing to me in his earlier post? I never called you stupid, I simply said you are making a stupid argument and you are, I won't back off of that at all. This argument people make doesn't make sense. If they would think about what they were saying then they would realize how silly it sounds.

Ban me I don't care, if I get banned for that then you'd probably be doing me a favor.

No, it was a suggestion from a poster. YOU shouldn't call people's arguments stupid or brainless, etc. No one is going to ban you so lean off the sword.

The argument makes perfect sense to anyone without their nose not buried in Roy's rump. You asked us to prove he couldn't have recruited those same players. THAT'S stupid.

[ChapelHillMatt]

No, my argument is really much simpler than that. Roy has not achieved half of what Coach K has achieved, and whether or not he could've landed those players really doesn't matter. He inhereted those players, but has NEVER and I mean NEVER won a National Title with his own recruits. In his years at Kansas he made exactly 2 Final 4s. TWO (From 1988-2003). Hell, Gary Williams has more than that at Maryland, in much less time (And he also took over a program that was on probation). So Matt Doherty has nothing to do with my argument, other than he provided 3 of the key cogs to Roy's only national title. Coach K on the other hand........

This thing about never having won anything with his own recruits is so silly. Thing is people put so much focus on winning it all it blinds them from all the great things a team accomplishes during the year. For instance this year's UNC team has had a great great year, they have won 32 games, a Regular Season and a Tournament title but if they get beat in the National Title game then everyone will rip them for not winning it all. They would be 37-3 and people would say they didn't win anything. How does that make any sense? They won a lot, they just weren't the final team standing. The bottom line is only one team each year walks away happy, does that mean no one else in the country won anything? Of course not, it's not always about the final destination, sometimes it's good to enjoy the journey.

Besides I don't know where you are getting your facts but Roy has been to 5 Final Fours, 4 at Kansas. Here is something I took off the official UNC website...

In Williams' case, few have numbers as distinguished as his - 524 wins in 19 seasons, a win percentage that is fourth-best in history, a national championship, 11 regular-season conference titles, five Final Fours, 16 first-round draft picks and so on.

Now you are going to sit there and try to tell me the man hasn't won anything with his own recruits?

Roy came into a great situation from a talent perspective. The bad situation was the fact that Doherty had some issues and that the parents of said star players were about to have their kids transfer. This was national news, not some closely guarded secret only available to those to Tobbacy Road. Again, the argument that Williams is a better coach than Krzewwkefbwjkwjkefbswrkeski is preposterous.

So you realize how bad the situation was but then act like anyone could have gotten those kids to play together as a team?

As for Gutheridge, yes, he took Dean's recruits. But isn't taking an 8 Seed to a final 4 a sign of a good coach, especially when compared to a guy who consistently took 1-4 Seeds that got bounced by round 2 of the tourney? That to me is not a strike against Gutheridge, but an argument in his favor. He did beat a 1 seed and a 4 seed to get there after all.

That team was 18-13 and got hot at the right time, they underachieved the whole year, they finally started playing like they were capable. It's similar to what Gibbs did with the Skins actually, we were mediocre under him but went on some late season runs that made it seem better than it actually was.

PS. When Doherty was winning the AP coach of the year Award, I wonder what you were saying about him then? I mean the 8-20 squad was largely comprise of Freshmen (Including the 3 stars).

That first year was nice, so was Bunting's 8-5 season with a Peach Bowl victory over Auburn. You can't judge a coach only on one season, Doherty's body of work was horrible as was Bunting's.

Coach K > Roy Williams

Career numbers wise yes, what's actually happening now, not so much. Roy has had more success lately than coach K has.

No, it was a suggestion from a poster. YOU shouldn't call people's arguments stupid or brainless, etc. No one is going to ban you so lean off the sword.

The argument makes perfect sense to anyone without their nose not buried in Roy's rump. You asked us to prove he couldn't have recruited those same players. THAT'S stupid.

Sounded like a warning to me, not a suggestion but anyway, if a person makes a stupid argument I'm going to call it as such, the argument still makes no sense btw and you haven't been able to argue your point. He's won a lot with his own recruits, in fact Marvin Williams hit the game winning shot which was one of his recruits.

If he wins it this year with a team full of his recruits, I wonder what the next excuse will be. I remember in 2005 as we were making our run the argument was Roy's a choker and there is no way he will win a National Title. After he did they just had to come up with something else so they've latched on to this "He can't win anything with his own recruits"....I can't wait to see what you all come up with next. I mean the man is in the Hall of Fame and to hear you folks tell it, he's not Hall of Fame material.

[RedskinsDave]

The argument still is only stupid to you. The fact is the players he won with were mostly not his. No one is saying he is a bad coach. The argument was whether he was better than K and simple fact is he is not.Keep calling the argument stupid and then fail to prove it is. It makes you look like the fawning kool aid drinker that you are.

[ChapelHillMatt]

So because those players weren't his, he recieves no credit?

[Keino]

This thing about never having won anything with his own recruits is so silly. Thing is people put so much focus on winning it all it blinds them from all the great things a team accomplishes during the year. For instance this year's UNC team has had a great great year, they have won 32 games, a Regular Season and a Tournament title but if they get beat in the National Title game then everyone will rip them for not winning it all. They would be 37-3 and people would say they didn't win anything. How does that make any sense? They won a lot, they just weren't the final team standing. The bottom line is only one team each year walks away happy, does that mean no one else in the country won anything? Of course not, it's not always about the final destination, sometimes it's good to enjoy the journey.

Nobody remembers the 2nd place guy. Winning is why they coach/play the game. Enjoy the ride in Pee wees

Besides I don't know where you are getting your facts but Roy has been to 5 Final Fours, 4 at Kansas. Here is something I took off the official UNC website...

You are right, when I looked at the years, I overlooked "Runner-Up". I stand corrected.

In Williams' case, few have numbers as distinguished as his - 524 wins in 19 seasons, a win percentage that is fourth-best in history, a national championship, 11 regular-season conference titles, five Final Fours, 16 first-round draft picks and so on.

This is true, but the comparison is to Coach K. 802 wins for a .755 %(2nd only to Eddie Sutton) (728 at Duke with .779%) , 3 national titles (All with his own recruits), 10 Final 4s (all at Duke) and I don't think there is a school with more current active NBA players than Duke.

Now you are going to sit there and try to tell me the man hasn't won anything with his own recruits?

Yes, because it is commonly regarded by most people that "Winning Something" means Championship. If he wins it all this year will be his 1st.


So you realize how bad the situation was but then act like anyone could have gotten those kids to play together as a team?

Irrelevant. The fact of the matter is he had Doherty's recruits and has not won a Championship with his own recruits, despite having numerous #1 seeds .

That team was 18-13 and got hot at the right time, they underachieved the whole year, they finally started playing like they were capable. It's similar to what Gibbs did with the Skins actually, we were mediocre under him but went on some late season runs that made it seem better than it actually was.

Are you arguing that the coach had nothing to do with that?

That first year was nice, so was Bunting's 8-5 season with a Peach Bowl victory over Auburn. You can't judge a coach only on one season, Doherty's body of work was horrible as was Bunting's.

But he sure was on helluva recruiter, wasn't he?

Career numbers wise yes, what's actually happening now, not so much. Roy has had more success lately than coach K has.

So what has occurred over the last 5 years determines who is the better coach when each have a complete body of work with which to judge. Yea, no Carolina Blue blinders on there......


If he wins it this year with a team full of his recruits, I wonder what the next excuse will be. I remember in 2005 as we were making our run the argument was Roy's a choker and there is no way he will win a National Title. After he did they just had to come up with something else so they've latched on to this "He can't win anything with his own recruits"....I can't wait to see what you all come up with next. I mean the man is in the Hall of Fame and to hear you folks tell it, he's not Hall of Fame material.

No, if he wins it he will have finally popped his cherry. And if I sound like the guy isn't a great coach, it's because he's not when compared to Coach K, who is also in the Hall of Fame.

Nobody outside of Carolina fans thinks that Roy is a superior coach to Coach K. That should tell you all you need to know right there. Any arguments that say Roy is better than Coach K are ridiculous.

[dj_stouty]

What is the argument? Which is the better coach between the two?

Coach K has (3) titles and is the winningest coach in NCAA tournament history.

I'm no Duke fan, but I can appreciate his accomplishments.

He gets my vote.

[Keino]

What is the argument? Which is the better coach between the two?

Coach K has (3) titles and is the winningest coach in NCAA tournament history.

I'm no Duke fan, but I can appreciate his accomplishments.

He gets my vote.

Correct on all counts.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Keino, I'll simply address a couple of your points, don't feel like quoting them all.

1)I've not diminished what K has accomplished, in fact this will be the 3rd time I've said he's a great coach who has unbelievable career numbers. You asked how could anyone argue Roy over K now or in the past? I've given you plenty of reasons why you could argue that fact. Roy hasn't been coaching as long as K so his numbers aren't going to match up. K has had more opportunities than Roy has had to put up those stellar numbers. If the argument is who's the better coach then let's compare what they are doing now? Why can't we do that? That's has nothing to do with UNC homerism or anything of the sort. Roy is doing a better job right now than K is, K has better career numbers and I'll grant you that but at the same time you have to admit Roy is doing a better job with his program than K is currently.

You have two HOF'ers going at it and right now Roy and his program are having more success. K's dominance occured in the 90's, since the turn of the century he hasn't been as dominant. His teams still are good but they have had a hard time getting past the sweet 16. So using your logic he has failed miserably since his 2001 championship.

2)Doherty was not a great recruiter, he missed on tons of big man recruits in his time at UNC. Other than Sean May that is, it was refreshing to lock up a recruit in Marvin Williams when Roy came on board, we were getting tired of getting turned down.

Basically it's like this, if Doherty would have stuck around you would have seen the program get worse and worse. Luckily for him he was run out of town and Roy came in and won a championship with his players, so that made it seem like he was this great recruiter and was doing a great job but he really wasn't.

I think it also needs to be pointed out that Felton and McCants were coming to UNC regardless of who the coach was, I'll give him credit for getting Jawad, Manuel, and I guess May(although Phil Ford had a lot to do with May coming to Chapel Hill)

3) Let me ask this, if K is so much better than Roy why is Roy 5-5 against him since he's came back to UNC? If Roy just can't get it done then why is he able to hold his own against K in the head to head matchups?

[dj_stouty]

Well, I guess Jack Del Rio is a better coach than Joe Gibbs...considering Jack has a better regular season and post season record than Joe has had the past 4 years.

:rolleyes:

BTW - did you guys know that K and Roy have identical regular season & ACC records since Roy came back?

[Keino]

Keino, I'll simply address a couple of your points, don't feel like quoting them all.

1)I've not diminished what K has accomplished, in fact this will be the 3rd time I've said he's a great coach who has unbelievable career numbers. You asked how could anyone argue Roy over K now or in the past? I've given you plenty of reasons why you could argue that fact. Roy hasn't been coaching as long as K so his numbers aren't going to match up. K has had more opportunities than Roy has had to put up those stellar numbers. If the argument is who's the better coach then let's compare what they are doing now? Why can't we do that? That's has nothing to do with UNC homerism or anything of the sort. Roy is doing a better job right now than K is, K has better career numbers and I'll grant you that but at the same time you have to admit Roy is doing a better job with his program than K is currently.

You have two HOF'ers going at it and right now Roy and his program are having more success. K's dominance occured in the 90's, since the turn of the century he hasn't been as dominant. His teams still are good but they have had a hard time getting past the sweet 16. So using your logic he has failed miserably since his 2001 championship.

2)Doherty was not a great recruiter, he missed on tons of big man recruits in his time at UNC. Other than Sean May that is, it was refreshing to lock up a recruit in Marvin Williams when Roy came on board, we were getting tired of getting turned down.

Basically it's like this, if Doherty would have stuck around you would have seen the program get worse and worse. Luckily for him he was run out of town and Roy came in and won a championship with his players, so that made it seem like he was this great recruiter and was doing a great job but he really wasn't.

I think it also needs to be pointed out that Felton and McCants were coming to UNC regardless of who the coach was, I'll give him credit for getting Jawad, Manuel, and I guess May(although Phil Ford had a lot to do with May coming to Chapel Hill)

3) Let me ask this, if K is so much better than Roy why is Roy 5-5 against him since he's came back to UNC? If Roy just can't get it done then why is he able to hold his own against K in the head to head matchups?


If they are 5-5 against each other, how is it that you can argue that Williams is better recently? Because of the 2005 ring?

When has Roy been as close to dominant (anywhere) if I buy your "Coach K is only dominant in the 90s theory? (Which I don't)

When did I argue that Roy cannot get it done? My argument is simple: Coach K is a better coach than Roy as evidenced by their respective bodies of work.

Slice it any way you want, Coach K comes out ahead.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Well, I guess Jack Del Rio is a better coach than Joe Gibbs...considering Jack has a better regular season and post season record than Joe has had the past 4 years.

:rolleyes:

BTW - did you guys know that K and Roy have identical regular season & ACC records since Roy came back?

Del Rio was a better coach than Gibbs, no doubt about it. I'll take what Del Rio accomplished over what Gibbs accomplished over the last 4 years.

Keino, my argument for Roy being better the last 5 years is simple.

3 ACC Regular Season Championships, 2 ACC Tournament Championships, 1 National Championship.

In that same time frame K has 2 Regular Season Championships, 3 ACC Tournament Championships and his teams haven't gotten past the sweet 16 since 2004.

Like I said, he's still has very good teams but Roy has been taking his teams further in the tournament plus he has the National Title and more Regular Season Championships.

I never argued Roy was far and away the better coach like you have been doing with K, I'm simply saying Roy is right there with coach K and I've given you some reasons why it can be argued that he's a better coach than K. Most of what I've argued though is the notion that Roy can't win titles without Matt Doherty's help, that's the main problem I have with your argument, not this K vs Roy stuff. Honestly I don't have a problem if you want to argue K is better, just dont' sit there and try to tell me Roy isn't in his league because he obviously is.

Once again Roy got a late start, this is something you seem to be ignoring. That's the only reason K's numbers look so much better, it's not that his ability as a coach is so much greater than Roy's. Still though if you want to argue he's a better coach then that's fine, it's the stupid comments about not winning a championship with his own recruits that boggles my mind.

[dj_stouty]

Del Rio was a better coach than Gibbs, no doubt about it. I'll take what Del Rio accomplished over what Gibbs accomplished over the last 4 years..

Agreed. But overall, Jack Del Rio is no where close to being better than Joe. This is why cropping out sections of a coach's career for comparison's sake doesn't do anyone justice.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Agreed. But overall, Jack Del Rio is no where close to being better than Joe. This is why cropping out sections of a coach's career for comparison's sake doesn't do anyone justice.

Fair enough but I'm of the belief that if Roy would have been coaching as long as K has then his numbers would be very similar.

Roy and K are much closer than any of you seem to want to admit.

[Keino]

Fair enough but I'm of the belief that if Roy would have been coaching as long as K has then his numbers would be very similar.

Roy and K are much closer than any of you seem to want to admit.

He has coached for 20 years. In Coach K's first 20 years he won 2 National titles, went to 7 Final 4s.

Last time I checked 2 was twice the number of 1 and 7 is more than 5. And it should be noted that his first 5 years were at West Point (Army) and not a Major BBall program that had just won the National Title (Kansas).

Any way you slice it. Coach K is superior to Roy Williams, which has been my argument all along.

[ChapelHillMatt]

This is Roy's 20th year, if he wins it all this year he'll have 2 National Championships and 6 Final Fours.

Plus he has a higher winning percentage and got to 500 wins quicker than K did.

There isn't much seperating them other than the career numbers.

[Keino]

This is Roy's 20th year, if he wins it all this year he'll have 2 National Championships and 6 Final Fours.

Plus he has a higher winning percentage and got to 500 wins quicker than K did.

There isn't much seperating them other than the career numbers.

Holy Homerism.

There are a few other tidbits that separate them. One started at a major program coming off a National title, while the other stated at Army. One, in both of his coaching locales came into a well-established program while the other built his from the ground-up.

Oh, and change my comment to 19 years and the numbers are still the same.

7 to 5 and 2 to 1.

Any standard of measurement (Besides of course cherry-picking stats by limiting the comparison to the last 5 years) will show Coach K to be the superior coach.

Duke's program was built in the same Manner Dean Smith built the Carolina program, and you have to give K is props for that.

BTW - CHM, you are forever on my crap list for making me defend Duke so hard. I am a MD grad. I hate Duke and Rat Face. But cmon, Tom Landry was a better coach than George Allen. It's the truth.

[ChapelHillMatt]

BTW - CHM, you are forever on my crap list for making me defend Duke so hard. I am a MD grad. I hate Duke and Rat Face. But cmon, Tom Landry was a better coach than George Allen. It's the truth.

Well it's you're fault, you were upset someone ignored your post on one of the earlier pages, I saw your post last night and decided to argue with you.:)

But again, you can argue he's a better coach, I don't take exception to that, K is a great coach. I'm not so much a homer where I won't give him credit, he's a great great coach.

I just think Roy (who's currently in the HOF) is a great coach and right there with him. Silly me I guess...with the way he's going I can see him tying coach K in National Championships very quickly. His recruiting is off the charts and he has a great school to recruit to. He's a great teacher of the game and he's been getting UNC deep into the tourney for the most part, he's giving himself a chance.

Will K get things back on track and get Duke back to the Final Four? He may but he needs to pick it up and start recruiting better athletes to Duke.

[dj_stouty]

But cmon, Tom Landry was a better coach than George Allen. It's the truth.

Not in Landry's last five seasons of his career... ;)

[Keino]

Well it's you're fault, you were upset someone ignored your post on one of the earlier pages, I saw your post last night and decided to argue with you.:)

But again, you can argue he's a better coach, I don't take exception to that, K is a great coach. I'm not so much a homer where I won't give him credit, he's a great great coach.

I just think Roy (who's currently in the HOF) is a great coach and right there with him. Silly me I guess...with the way he's going I can see him tying coach K in National Championships very quickly. His recruiting is off the charts and he has a great school to recruit to. He's a great teacher of the game and he's been getting UNC deep into the tourney for the most part, he's giving himself a chance.

Will K get things back on track and get Duke back to the Final Four? He may but he needs to pick it up and start recruiting better athletes to Duke.


He may, but IMO Roy has never been a great Tournament Coach. His recruiting and UNC will get him the athletes to contend for years to come.

What makes me chuckle about your last paragraph is that it was argued earlier by Carmike that Duke has better talent than Roy does at UNC.

[Patrick]

Ummmm ..... guys. Wouldn't this discussion be better in its own thread (maybe a poll) or that UNC thread. You guys are kinda of high-jacking the subject.

[ChapelHillMatt]

He may, but IMO Roy has never been a great Tournament Coach. His recruiting and UNC will get him the athletes to contend for years to come.

What makes me chuckle about your last paragraph is that it was argued earlier by Carmike that Duke has better talent than Roy does at UNC.

Mike said Duke has more talent? I don't see that, I think Henderson is the most talented player on either team but as far as overall talent I think UNC has them by a considerable margin.

I think Roy is a very good tournament coach, it's just this tournament is a crap shoot. One bad shooting night or if you run into a team that you don't match up well with then your season can be over before you know it. It's just the nature of the tournament, it's why we all love it. If these games were a best of 3 or something I think he would do a lot better as would the other great coaches out there.

I mean we both agree coach K and Dean were and are two of the very best to ever coach this game and between them they have only won 5 National Titles. It's just extremely hard to get it done, it takes a lot of things going your way.

[SkinsKY]

Mike said Duke has more talent? I don't see that, I think Henderson is the most talented player on either team but as far as overall talent I think UNC has them by a considerable margin.

I think Roy is a very good tournament coach, it's just this tournament is a crap shoot. One bad shooting night or if you run into a team that you don't match up well with then your season can be over before you know it. It's just the nature of the tournament, it's why we all love it. If these games were a best of 3 or something I think he would do a lot better as would the other great coaches out there.

I mean we both agree coach K and Dean were and are two of the very best to ever coach this game and between them they have only won 5 National Titles. It's just extremely hard to get it done, it takes a lot of things going your way.

He said Duke had more talent because Duke had more McDAA's.

[smoak]

LMAO, he inherited a title team. Unreal.

I'll have to assume you are just trying to get a rise out of folks b/c I know you are smarter than that. Just in case you took a nasty bump on the head, may I remind you that that "championship" team that Roy inherited went 8-20 one season and couldn't win the NIT un another. Sean May was fat and slow. None of the guys played with a sense of team. So wrap that nice warm blanket of hate over yourself if it helps you feel better. :rolleyes:

EDIT: After reading some of the other posts in the thread, if your point is that he inherited the palyers, then fine. But I don't see how anyone can say he inherited a "title team". That is simply put, not a true statement.

[Keino]

Yea Smoak, Sean May was fat and slow. So fat and slow in fact that he was named the 2005 NCAA Tournament Most Outstanding Player. :rolleyes:

Why is it so hard to admit that the Three main pieces of the 2005 National Championship were in fact, Matt Doherty recruits?

4 of that starting 5 (Including Marvin Williams who was recruited by Roy) were picked in the Top 14 of the NBA Draft that year. I think it's pretty safe to say that he inherited a VERY talented team.

[CarMike]

So what if they were Matts recruits? He didn't do squat with them. And Marvin Williams was just as important as Felton/McCants/May were.

Felton and McCants would have been UNC players regardless who the coach was. Both were long time fans.

Roy was the coach. Bottom line. Who cares who recruited them?

GW needs to get off his arse and start recruiting. No need for the Terps to be where they are right now.

[CarMike]

Ummmm ..... guys. Wouldn't this discussion be better in its own thread (maybe a poll) or that UNC thread. You guys are kinda of high-jacking the subject.

I think its perfect for this thread.

[Keino]

So what if they were Matts recruits? He didn't do squat with them. And Marvin Williams was just as important as Felton/McCants/May were.

Felton and McCants would have been UNC players regardless who the coach was. Both were long time fans.

Roy was the coach. Bottom line. Who cares who recruited them?

GW needs to get off his arse and start recruiting. No need for the Terps to be where they are right now.

If the argument is about who is a better coach between Roy and coach K, and Coach K recruited his own players in winning championships, then it is certainly relevant to the discussion as to who recruited the players for the 2005 run. Especially when all of said players are in the NBA. It speaks to the talent he inherited.

Especially when you consider Roy has not won a ring with his own recruits. Gary Williams has. Coach K Has. Dean Smith did. Larry Brown did. Rick Petino did. John Thompson did. Bobby Knight did.

I agree that Gary should be doing better. I mean Kevin Durant, Mike Beasely, Ty Lawson....they are all Marylanders. How aren't we landing some of that talent? Because we don't even try. We bank on Mid-level players becoming the next Juan Dixon.

[smoak]

Yea Smoak, Sean May was fat and slow. So fat and slow in fact that he was named the 2005 NCAA Tournament Most Outstanding Player. :rolleyes:

Why is it so hard to admit that the Three main pieces of the 2005 National Championship were in fact, Matt Doherty recruits?

4 of that starting 5 (Including Marvin Williams who was recruited by Roy) were picked in the Top 14 of the NBA Draft that year. I think it's pretty safe to say that he inherited a VERY talented team.


OMG EXACTLY!!! If you watched the Tar Heels (and any other UNC fans feel free to correct me), you would know that the transformation from fat & slow (which is a bit of an exaggeration I admit) took place BECAUSE OF ROY WILLIAMS. May has said as much and the entire team credit him with instilling the work ethic they needed to succeed. I'm not saying he didn't inherit good players (I agree with Mike that I don't give a crap b/c it is irrelevant), but he took the pieces and turned them into a great team. Period.

Regarding whether the rest, I never disagreed that he inherited great PLAYERS. I just don't care personally and disagreed that he inherited a "championship team". They were floundering and under achieving before Roy stepped in.

EDIT: After reading some of the other posts in the thread, if your point is that he inherited the palyers, then fine. But I don't see how anyone can say he inherited a "title team". That is simply put, not a true statement.

[dj_stouty]

If the argument is about who is a better coach between Roy and coach K, and Coach K recruited his own players in winning championships, then it is certainly relevant to the discussion as to who recruited the players for the 2005 run. Especially when all of said players are in the NBA. It speaks to the talent he inherited.

Yes, and the same argument can be made about Chucky winning a SB with Dungy's players.

[redskin_rich]

Yes, and the same argument can be made about Chucky winning a SB with Dungy's players.

That argument fails, since Chucky played and beat the team that had "his" players. Not to mention that Chucky managed in one season what Dungy couldn't over many.

Who gave this thread one star? I've found it entertaining and I don't even care about basketball.

[Keino]

Yes, and the same argument can be made about Chucky winning a SB with Dungy's players.

And Notice Chucky, after winning the SB, the first thing he said was to credit Tony Dungy for putting together the team. Notice also that Chucky hasn't sniffed the SB since he attempted to put his own finger-print on the team and Dungy has since won one.

It's a fair argument. Chucky inherited a contender.

[redskin_rich]

And Notice Chucky, after winning the SB, the first thing he said was to credit Tony Dungy for putting together the team. Notice also that Chucky hasn't sniffed the SB since he attempted to put his own finger-print on the team and Dungy has since won one.

It's a fair argument. Chucky inherited a contender.I think it speaks more to how Dungy handcuffed his offense in TB. Gruden came in and didn't mess with the teams bread and butter, which was the defense but he opened up the offense. Dungy has similarly followed this path only on offense, with the Colts.

[smoak]

Yes, and the same argument can be made about Chucky winning a SB with Dungy's players.

It is a valid discussion, but at the end of the day, Gruden still has a ring.

The distinction in my mind is that the Bucs were a perennial playoff power whereas the Heels were FAILING. They didn't make an NCAA tourney appearance in back to back seasons and that is hard to do for a powerhouse school. I love Doughery, but he needed to go and Roy needed do step in and completely change the culture (which he did).

So I don't personally care that he won with other players.... All I care about is that he won.

I just hope that the current team is ready b/c I personally (unlike CHM) don't think they are nearly as good as the 2005 version (to keino's point, look where they were all drafted). Lawson isn't 100% IMO regardless of what Vicki D says. I love the size and potential physical presence that Thompson and Stevenson bring to the table, but both seem to disappear and go soft at times. Green has looked both great and horrendous in spots so I don't know what to expect from him. The same with Ellington, and IMO we need him to score more consistently. Going off on Clemson is nice, but we that ~ 20+ point potential every night. Q scares me, but I think the playing time while Lawson was out made this a much better (deeper) team. That is where this team has an edge IMO to the '05 Champs... We are really deep, but we need better consistency. Unlike Clemson who impressed me, VT didn't do anything special and it took a last second shot to win it??? SCARY!

[dj_stouty]

It is a valid discussion, but at the end of the day, Gruden still has a ring.


Yup...and so does Barry Switzer. ;)

[smoak]

Yup...and so does Barry Switzer. ;)

Touche....

Fair point. But I still submit the track record of the teams PRIOR to those coahces' arrivals.

dallass - Back to back SB champions and best team in the league hands down.

Tampa - A perennial playoff team and powerhousein the NFC that won divisions and playoff games

Tar Heels - Losing record (which is UNHEARD of in Carolina) and failure to succeed in the NIT.

C'mon... Yes he won with MD's players, but this wasn't a great team when Roy took over.

[ChapelHillMatt]

If the argument is about who is a better coach between Roy and coach K, and Coach K recruited his own players in winning championships, then it is certainly relevant to the discussion as to who recruited the players for the 2005 run. Especially when all of said players are in the NBA. It speaks to the talent he inherited.

Especially when you consider Roy has not won a ring with his own recruits. Gary Williams has. Coach K Has. Dean Smith did. Larry Brown did. Rick Petino did. John Thompson did. Bobby Knight did.

I agree that Gary should be doing better. I mean Kevin Durant, Mike Beasely, Ty Lawson....they are all Marylanders. How aren't we landing some of that talent? Because we don't even try. We bank on Mid-level players becoming the next Juan Dixon.

The reason the statement is stupid is because it implies that Roy is incapable of recruiting players of the caliber of Felton, McCants, and May. That simply isn't true, if you know anything about the recruiting ability of Roy Williams you simply should know better.

Besides it could be argued what Roy did with the 2005 team is more impressive than winning with your own recruits anyway, there wasn't the trust factor you have with your own recruits. You don't know them and what their strengths and weaknesses are, you don't know how far you can push them, etc. you have to learn this all on the fly.

So I'd say Roy turning that team into National Champions was a mighty impressive feat, you folks can keep acting like it doesn't count but Roy has a National Title and you can't take that away. If he wins 2 more he will be tied with the all mighty coach K.

[Keino]

The reason the statement is stupid is because it implies that Roy is incapable of recruiting players of the caliber of Felton, McCants, and May. That simply isn't true, if you know anything about the recruiting ability of Roy Williams you simply should know better.

Besides it could be argued what Roy did with the 2005 team is more impressive than winning with your own recruits anyway, there wasn't the trust factor you have with your own recruits. You don't know them and what their strengths and weaknesses are, you don't know how far you can push them, etc. you have to learn this all on the fly.

So I'd say Roy turning that team into National Champions was a mighty impressive feat, you folks can keep acting like it doesn't count but Roy has a National Title and you can't take that away. If he wins 2 more he will be tied with the all mighty coach K.


No, it only implies that despite Roy's magnificent recruiting, he has never demonstrated the ability to take his own recruits to the promised land. Nothing controversial about that, because it is true. He came into a situation where anything different than what Doherty did bought him credibility with the team. You cannot be so blind as to not see that.

Please, my raising the issue is only in the context of comparing Roy and Coach K.

There is not a valid argument that can be made by anyone that could support the idea that Roy is a superior coach to Coach K. Even the last 5 years argument is weak, because you'd have to acknowledge that 3 of the last 5 ACC Banners hang in Cameron Indoor. (You don't get one for winning the Reg Season)

[Keino]

Touche....

Fair point. But I still submit the track record of the teams PRIOR to those coahces' arrivals.

dallass - Back to back SB champions and best team in the league hands down.

Tampa - A perennial playoff team and powerhousein the NFC that won divisions and playoff games

Tar Heels - Losing record (which is UNHEARD of in Carolina) and failure to succeed in the NIT.

C'mon... Yes he won with MD's players, but this wasn't a great team when Roy took over.


You've got to be kidding. They had one year of a losing record. Under Doherty's predecessor, they went to 2 final 4s in 3 years.

4 of the Starting 5 drafted in first 14 picks. That can't be solely due to Roy's greatness as a coach.

You Carolina fans are a funny group.

[ChapelHillMatt]

No, it only implies that despite Roy's magnificent recruiting, he has never demonstrated the ability to take his own recruits to the promised land.



You're still not getting it, the 2005 team was no more talented that some of his teams at Kansas. It's just he finally was able to get the breaks and win one. Remember the Villanova game in the Sweet 16 where everything went our way in the final seconds? It was just one of those years where we caught the breaks. Extremely talented and well coached, we played well but there was some luck involved as well.

That's why this argument about him not winning with his own players doesn't make any sense to me. Yes it's true but like smoak said it's irrelevant, recruiting talent is not an issue for him so him taking the talented Tar Heels to the title is evidence that he can win a championship with his own recruits. It just simply hasn't happened yet, it doesn't mean it can't or won't, it just hasn't happened.

He has a National Title though and that can't be taken away.

[Keino]

That's why this argument about him not winning with his own players doesn't make any sense to me. Yes it's true but like smoak said it's irrelevant, recruiting talent is not an issue for him so him taking the talented Tar Heels to the title is evidence that he can win a championship with his own recruits. It just simply hasn't happened yet, it doesn't mean it can't or won't, it just hasn't happened.


Right. It hasn't happened and so, he has therefore, as I said "NOT DEMONSTRATED" that he can.

Coach K on the other hand, has.

Nobody can take Roy's ring away (Or Barry Switzer's), but it is certainly a valid point in comparing Roy to another coach.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Right. It hasn't happened and so, he has therefore, as I said "NOT DEMONSTRATED" that he can.

Coach K on the other hand, has.

Nobody can take Roy's ring away (Or Barry Switzer's), but it is certainly a valid point in comparing Roy to another coach.

You said hasn't show the ability, that's not true, he has show the ability.

And no it's not a valid point in comparing the two, it's a meaningless point.

There are a lot of valid points you can bring up to argue the point for K, this isn't one of them.

[ChapelHillMatt]

You've got to be kidding. They had one year of a losing record. Under Doherty's predecessor, they went to 2 final 4s in 3 years.

4 of the Starting 5 drafted in first 14 picks. That can't be solely due to Roy's greatness as a coach.

You Carolina fans are a funny group.

Why do you think that team was a junior/senior laden team in this day an age? Why didn't Felton, McCants, and May leave after their sophmore years?

Of course the answer is simple, they didn't become great players and play as a team until Roy got here. Talent was never an issue, putting it all together though and playing consistant basketball was.

You just don't see a team with that much experience and talent stay in college that long anymore, there is a reason for that, they were underachievers.

[smoak]

You've got to be kidding. They had one year of a losing record. Under Doherty's predecessor, they went to 2 final 4s in 3 years.

4 of the Starting 5 drafted in first 14 picks. That can't be solely due to Roy's greatness as a coach.

You Carolina fans are a funny group.

I am looking at the SPECIFIC team that Roy took over. Michael Jordan's championship is meaningless to the May/Felton team so it is disingenuous to go back further than when the core nucleus of THIS team was assembled. Keep spinning all you want though as it is fun to see the length people go to show their hatred.

Felton/May/McCants/Noel were juniors when we won it all so the previous two season are all that is applicable. Roy recruited Marvin, and the rest of the guys were role players...

[Keino]

I am looking at the SPECIFIC team that Roy took over. Michael Jordan's championship is meaningless to the May/Felton team so it is disingenuous to go back further than when the core nucleus of THIS team was assembled. Keep spinning all you want though as it is fun to see the length people go to show their hatred.

Felton/May/McCants/Noel were juniors when we won it all so the previous two season are all that is applicable. Roy recruited Marvin, and the rest of the guys were role players...

WHo the hell went back to 1982? I went back to 2002 in an effort to dispute the false notion that Carolina wasn't as much of contender in the recent past as the Bucs were in football. Carolina had 1, 1 losing season. The year Doughtery was fired was not even a losing season.

Felton/May/McCants all went to the NBA immediately after the 2005 ring. That wasn't because Roy Coached em up, but rather, because they were immensly talented.

Im not hating, I entered this fray because an argument erupted over who is the better of the two coaches. My argument is real simple. Line up their respective resumes and all mitigating factors (Like the team they came into) and draw the conclusion.

Only an insane person or Carolina fan would conclude that Roy is better. And you accuse me of spin. I HATE COACH K, AND AM INDIFFERENT TOWARDS ROY. I don't have a dog in this fight other than seeing truth get it's just do.

Answer the Straight up question. Between Roy and K, who has to date, the better coaching career?

[Keino]

You said hasn't show the ability, that's not true, he has show the ability.

And no it's not a valid point in comparing the two, it's a meaningless point.

There are a lot of valid points you can bring up to argue the point for K, this isn't one of them.

Notice the only people who don't think that is a valid point are Carolina fans. To everyone else, it is a valid point.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Notice the only people who don't think that is a valid point are Carolina fans. To everyone else, it is a valid point.

Yet another meaningless point, you are just full of them aren't you?

[ChapelHillMatt]

Felton/May/McCants all went to the NBA immediately after the 2005 ring. That wasn't because Roy Coached em up, but rather, because they were immensly talented.



Were they more talented after the 2005 season than they were after the 2004 season?

[SkinsKY]

Notice the only people who don't think that is a valid point are Carolina fans. To everyone else, it is a valid point.

You're a closet dook fan aren't you? ;)

To date, I think K has been better. No question to me. However, I think Roy has brought in better talent during his time at UNC than K. dook doesn't seem to be able to get the talent they once did (Read: Patrick Patterson picking us over K, which a matchup we always seem to lose). I'm using personal observation here and not recruiting rankings, which I couldn't care less about. K gets by on teaching these kids to play very disciplined ball and to hustle (and to flop from time to time. See here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovj4DLeFIZ0)). Should this trend continue, Roy will definitely have the talent advantage. My feeling is that if K can't get some bang up classes in here soon, he'll retire rather that try to rectify the situation. He's not young anyway.

Ultimately I think too much is being made of K v Roy since roy came to baccer road. The UNC side seems to downplay that part before then. He had very talented teams back then, but he didn't get it done. Yes, a lot must happen to win a title, but I can't think of a recent title where I thought some team other than the best one cut down the nets. UK should've brought home NC #8 in 2003, but got upended by Dwayne Wade's coming of age triple double. If we deserved it, we would've won. Getting de-railed just means you weren't the best team that year. All season is spent gearing for March. Regular season titles, conf tourney titles, fastest to 500 wins are nice, but the whole point in to hear "One Shining Moment" at the end of your season. That's a strike against Roy which give K the edge career wise.

[SkinsKY]

Yet another meaningless point, you are just full of them aren't you?

I really don't think it's meaningless. If people who hate dook go out of their way to defend them, something's up.

I don't hate Carolina, other than I don't want you guys to catch us in wins or titles. I have no vendetta against Roy or the school, but I agree with Keino.

[Keino]

Were they more talented after the 2005 season than they were after the 2004 season?

No they were immensely talented as Freshman., but they had more exposure and therefore commanded a higher pick and therefore more Dollars. How is this a valid point in a comparison between K and Roy?


Yet another meaningless point, you are just full of them aren't you?

You mean it's meaningless to point out in a discussion of two coaches that the only people arguing for one coach are fans of the team he coaches? Good to know.

We are comparing 2 coaches. In addition to their coaching resumes, their circumstances for attaining those resumes is relevant to the discussion. I am sorry that this simple fact eludes you. What a blissful existence you must live.

My argument, which has remained consistent is as follows:

Coach K is a superior coach to Roy in all measurable ways. He has a stronger resume and in examining how he built his resume I come away more impressed. Why? Roy, in his coaching career took over not 1, but 2 Established Basketball programs. Kansas had just won the National Title when he took over and Carolina was 2 years removed from the Final 4. When he finally won the title, he did so with a team that relied on his predecessors recruits. Yes he had to coach them there, but the fact remains. (Stop me when I have said something that is not true). Conversely, K, started off at Army where he was as expected, undistinguished fro 5 years, then took over Duke and proceeded to build that program from the ground-up. He is Duke Basketball and every accolade given to that program is attributable to him. He didn't inherit any players in any of his title runs. Again, stop me when I have said something not true.

So feel free to continue to delude yourselves into thinking that (A) Coach K's resume alone doesn't show him to be a better coach than Roy and (B) In comparing two great coaches, that the circumstances of them reaching greatness is not a valid factor worthy of examination.


Finally, there is a reason that when the Sun Rises and Sets, the Sky turns Maryland Red. (Okay, that had nothing to do with the discussion, but I wanted to have a personal stake in it so smoak can call me a hater)

[SkinsKY]

Conversely, K, started off at Army where he was as expected, undistinguished fro 5 years, then took over Duke and proceeded to build that program from the ground-up. He is Duke Basketball and every accolade given to that program is attributable to him.

Good point. Roy is standing on the shoulders of some giants, while K made himself a giant.

[ChapelHillMatt]

I don't even care about the K vs Roy argument, K has a more impressive resume due to the fact he's been coaching longer. At the same point in their careers it's still a bit more impressive and that's fine, I don't really care. Roy has nothing to be ashamed of, he's a phenominal coach in his own right and is in the Hall of Fame for a reason.

Most of what I've argued here is the notion that Roy is incapable of winning a title with his own players. It's an absurd argument to try and make and that is what I disagree with you on.

The fact that everyone other than Carolina fans agree with you means nothing to me. It doesn't mean you are right, if everyone other than me agreed 2+2=5, that wouldn't change the fact that 2+2=4. Just like you can't take change the fact that Roy won a National Championship and is the main reason why that team was able to accomplish their goals. That team grew up a lot after Roy put his system in place, they no longer underachieved, they finally met their potential.

Again you want to argue K is better than Roy, fine you can do that all you want, I won't stop you but don't use the "he recruits his own players" argument because it makes zero sense to do so. Roy may not have recruited that team but make no mistake that was his team, they don't win the title without him.

[Keino]

Nobody is arguing that Roy is not a great coach. Only arguing that K is superior in every measurable way.

I am certainly not going to get into a discussion about whether the 2005 team wins without Roy, because I cannot prove it either way and it's a silly exercise. Roy gets the credit for that team, but it is a circumstance worthy of examination in a comparison of 2 coaches and their respective achievements. I don't even understand why that point is so hard to understand.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Good point. Roy is standing on the shoulders of some giants, while K made himself a giant.

So let me get this straight, it's Roy's fault he was offered the job at Kansas and took it and didn't start off at a lesser program and build his program from the ground up?

Hilarious! Absolutely hilarious that you criticize Roy for that. He is responsible for the secondary break that teams run now though, let's not forget that. His offense is absolutely beautiful to watch and the style of basketball he plays is the style recruits love.

Also the fact that Keino keeps throwing up the fact that we were two years removed from the Final Four is also hilarious. The program was in shambles when Roy took over, the spinning here is just to much to take.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Nobody is arguing that Roy is not a great coach. Only arguing that K is superior in every measurable way.

I am certainly not going to get into a discussion about whether the 2005 team wins without Roy, because I cannot prove it either way and it's a silly exercise.

Much like your argument of "he can't win a title with his own recruits"

You can't prove it but you have entered into the discussion anyway.

I guarantee you they don't win a title without Roy though, that program was nowhere close to winning a title before Roy came.

[Keino]

Much like your argument of "he can't win a title with his own recruits"

You can't prove it but you have entered into the discussion anyway.

I guarantee you they don't win a title without Roy though, that program was nowhere close to winning a title before Roy came.

I challenge you to find the post where I said "he can't win a title with his own recruits". When you can't, please feel free to retract this comment.

Stating the fact that he hasn't in the context of a comparison.....oh nevermind. No matter how many times and different ways I write it you won't get it.

Roy is the greatest, everyone else sucks, even if to date he hasn't won (That's not saying he cant) a ring with his solely own recruits like K and a host of others.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Maybe you didn't say he can't win one but you did say this...

No, it only implies that despite Roy's magnificent recruiting, he has never demonstrated the ability to take his own recruits to the promised land.

You said he has never deomonstrated the ability to take his own recruits to a title.

100% false statement. Now if you want to say he hasn't won a championship with his own recruits yet? Then although it's still a silly point to make, at least it would be valid.

But to say he hasn't demonstarted the ability to do so isn't true. He's demonstrated the ability plenty of times. One was in 2003 vs Syracuse when his team just went ice cold at the line in the championship game. If they hit their FT's they win the title.....he got them to the championship game though and had them right on the door step. The fact that they didn't win it wasn't anything he failed to do, he put them in position to win a title, his players just couldn't finish the deal.

Then you go to 2005 when he actually did win a title, sure it wasn't with his own recruits but he showed the ability to get his team to yet another championship game and he showed a willingness to make in game adjustments after Felton got in foul trouble to make sure his team got the ring.

So how has he not shown the ability to get it done? The fact that it hasn't happened with his recruits doesn't mean he hasn't shown the ability to do so.

Again making this argument implies Roy needs help in recruiting to win a championship, again that isn't true.

[Keino]

In my world, demonstrating the ability to do a thing, requires actually doing the damn thing.

100% true statement and AGAIN - My points are limited to the context of the comparison of the two coaches. All the rest is not my issue or argument.

[SkinsKY]

So let me get this straight, it's Roy's fault he was offered the job at Kansas and took it and didn't start off at a lesser program and build his program from the ground up?

Hilarious! Absolutely hilarious that you criticize Roy for that. He is responsible for the secondary break that teams run now though, let's not forget that. His offense is absolutely beautiful to watch and the style of basketball he plays is the style recruits love.

Also the fact that Keino keeps throwing up the fact that we were two years removed from the Final Four is also hilarious. The program was in shambles when Roy took over, the spinning here is just to much to take.

Why would a Kentucky fan use that to bash somebody? Help me out. Every coach since Rupp (although Pitino to a lesser degree) has been standing on Adolph's shoulders. That doesn't make Sutton, Hall, Pitino, Smith, or Gillispie lesser coaches. It just means that they cannot claim "building a national power" on their resumes.

The emboldened part is wrong. Flat out wrong and you misunderstood what I said. What actually hilarious is that you took that as a criticism of Roy, and not as accolade to K. Necessarily in a comparative argument, a boon to one party will be a bane to the other, and such, I think building a national power from dirt is not easy and takes a great man to do it. That's why you don't have many Rupps, Woodens, Phog Allens, Dean Smiths running around. That's a huge credit to K.

This is how I see the comparison: Let's say I score each coach on a 1-100 scale. As an arbitrary set of numbers, let's say I score K a 96 and Roy a 94. In that instance, I have declared K the better coach. Those scores would make both amazing coaches with stellar careers, but one, as a matter of course, is better than the other. My argument about building the program did not take Roy's score down, but only added to K's. Just because one is better does not make the other bad. Can you understand that?

I AM NOT BASHING ROY WILLIAMS. I simply believe K is the better of the two. If Giilispie left Lexington tomorrow. I would welcome Roy in a flash. I have great respect for the man. He has assembled and coached some very good teams. He is not, however, better than K. That does not make Roy bad.

[ChapelHillMatt]

In my world, demonstrating the ability to do a thing, requires actually doing the damn thing.

100% true statement and AGAIN - My points are limited to the context of the comparison of the two coaches. All the rest is not my issue or argument.

He's shown the ability to win a title, he's actually won one.

But because he hasn't done it with his recruits, that means he hasn't shown you that ability?

Coaches can only do so much, once you get to the Final Four it's up to the players to make the plays. Why is this such a hard concept to understand? The tourney is a crapshoot, it takes some luck to actually win a championship.

If it didn't K would have won more than 1 in the last 15 years.

[Keino]

YES. Finally someone gets the context of my argument.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Why would a Kentucky fan use that to bash somebody? Help me out. Every coach since Rupp (although Pitino to a lesser degree) has been standing on Adolph's shoulders. That doesn't make Sutton, Hall, Pitino, Smith, or Gillispie lesser coaches. It just means that they cannot claim "building a national power" on their resumes.

The emboldened part is wrong. Flat out wrong and you misunderstood what I said. What actually hilarious is that you took that as a criticism of Roy, and not as accolade to K. Necessarily in a comparative argument, a boon to one party will be a bane to the other, and such, I think building a national power from dirt is not easy and takes a great man to do it. That's why you don't have many Rupps, Woodens, Phog Allens, Dean Smiths running around. That's a huge credit to K.

This is how I see the comparison: Let's say I score each coach on a 1-100 scale. As an arbitrary set of numbers, let's say I score K a 96 and Roy a 94. In that instance, I have declared K the better coach. Those scores would make both amazing coaches with stellar careers, but one, as a matter of course, is better than the other. My argument about building the program did not take Roy's score down, but only added to K's. Just because one is better does not make the other bad. Can you understand that?

I AM NOT BASHING ROY WILLIAMS. I simply believe K is the better of the two. If Giilispie left Lexington tomorrow. I would welcome Roy in a flash. I have great respect for the man. He has assembled and coached some very good teams. He is not, however, better than K. That does not make Roy bad.

I have no problem with that.

Roy probably could have done the same thing though, he just decided to stay at UNC under Coach Smith so he could learn more before he moved on.

Again though I have no problem with arguing K is better, haven't had a problem with that at all.

[Keino]

But because he hasn't done it with his recruits, that means he hasn't shown you that ability?

Correct. He hasn't demonstrated the ability to do it with his recruits. An argument can be made (I think you may have actually made it) that it is tougher to win with someone else's recruits than your own, but not when 3 of those players are NBA lottery picks. That's my opinion though.

Coaches can only do so much, once you get to the Final Four it's up to the players to make the plays. Why is this such a hard concept to understand? The tourney is a crapshoot, it takes some luck to actually win a championship.

If it didn't K would have won more than 1 in the last 15 years.

I understand that, but that is not relevant to the discussion. My favorite coach only has 1 National Title, my second favorite coach doesn't have any. In a comparative discussion, how hard it is win in the Final 4 has no real bearing unless one coach had it tougher than the other, which is not the case here.

[SkinsKY]

Roy probably could have done the same thing though, he just decided to stay at UNC under Coach Smith so he could learn more before he moved on.

Perhaps, but that's unknowable. Pure hypothesis and can't be proved, which makes it irrelevant. I think he might have been able, but that's something we'll never know.

[CarMike]

If the argument is about who is a better coach between Roy and coach K, and Coach K recruited his own players in winning championships, then it is certainly relevant to the discussion as to who recruited the players for the 2005 run.

To me, I think it's harder to win with another coaches recruits than your own.

Are you saying that Roy Williams Isn't a good recruiter? Are you saying Matt D is the better recruiter?

[Keino]

To me, I think it's harder to win with another coaches recruits than your own.

Are you saying that Roy Williams Isn't a good recruiter? Are you saying Matt D is the better recruiter?

I am saying that Coach K is a better coach than Roy, to date.

Williams is a fantastic recruiter, but Matt D gave him 3 NBA lottery picks to work with. I don't recall Roy ever producing 3 NBA lottery picks off of the same team, though it should be noted that his 1 recruit from that team was picked higher than Matt D's 3.

I can't give John Thompson III credit for Jeff Green and Roy Hibbert, because they were Craig Escherick recruits. I do give him credit for getting them farther (Final 4) than Escherick got them.

[MPCSkins]

I feel like I could recruit a top 10 class if I was a coach at one of these schools. It just seems that the schools practically recruit themselves at this point with their history and tradition. The difference is, K brought tradition and Roy came into it. Either way though, it hasn't worked for Gary as he's managed to take a National Championship and dig a bigger hole for the basketball team with his recruiting.

[Keino]

For the record, I'd love to have Roy coaching at MD, just for his recruiting alone. Gary's act has grown old, but he does have JUCO PG coming in, so hopefully, we won't be blowing 20 pt leads next year. Still, I wanted Gist to have a special year, being that he is a Good Counsel Falcon and all.

[ChapelHillMatt]

I feel like I could recruit a top 10 class if I was a coach at one of these schools. It just seems that the schools practically recruit themselves at this point with their history and tradition. The difference is, K brought tradition and Roy came into it. Either way though, it hasn't worked for Gary as he's managed to take a National Championship and dig a bigger hole for the basketball team with his recruiting.

Why is it that Guthridge didn't recruit well at UNC then?

And other than the big 3 of Felton, McCants, and May Doherty really didn't recruit all that well either.

It would have been nice to have some depth left over after losing our top 7 scorers. All we had left what was Noel, Terry, and Roy's recruits. Doherty helped Roy with the title team but he recruited no depth.

Roy basically had to build the team from scratch after 2005 and he did it very very quickly. We had one down year and then we got right back into the National Title picture.

Recruiting at UNC is easier than some other places but it doesn't recruit itself, it takes a lot of hard work.

[smoak]

WHo the hell went back to 1982? I went back to 2002 in an effort to dispute the false notion that Carolina wasn't as much of contender in the recent past as the Bucs were in football. Carolina had 1, 1 losing season. The year Doughtery was fired was not even a losing season.

Felton/May/McCants all went to the NBA immediately after the 2005 ring. That wasn't because Roy Coached em up, but rather, because they were immensly talented.

Im not hating, I entered this fray because an argument erupted over who is the better of the two coaches. My argument is real simple. Line up their respective resumes and all mitigating factors (Like the team they came into) and draw the conclusion.

Only an insane person or Carolina fan would conclude that Roy is better. And you accuse me of spin. I HATE COACH K, AND AM INDIFFERENT TOWARDS ROY. I don't have a dog in this fight other than seeing truth get it's just do.

Answer the Straight up question. Between Roy and K, who has to date, the better coaching career?

LMAO! C'mon I was intentionally exaggerating a bit, but it illustrates my point. Nothing before their arrival matters one bit. Nothing. Not Doughtery's first year or Gutheridge. If we are talking about that team, it was primarily assembled in 2002-2003.

The 2005 the Heels went from losing record (again unheard of at UNC) and NIT losers to National Champs. You are being WAY too dismissive of Roy's impact and it isn't right. My dog in this fight is also truth, and the truth is that Roy had a GINORMOUS impact to that team. I agree they were immensly talented and that is part of the reason that got MD fired (people knew he was minimizing their ability), but have any of them done anything of note in the NBA (I don't follow the NBA so that isn't a loaded question)?

K has had a much better career to date (if you notice, I never entered that fray b/c I didn't want to admit that out loud). 3 championships is > than 1 championship no matter how you spin it. I will add that I were hiring a coach for my NCAA team, I would hire Roy before K. I just prefer a certain character from my head coach and K doesn't appeal to me personally. He comes off as being too weasel-ish for my tastes with the whole whining through the media and playing the NBA for a bigger contract. But that aside, I would take K before a cheater like Sampson, but that is another thread. :D

[smoak]

Finally, there is a reason that when the Sun Rises and Sets, the Sky turns Maryland Red. (Okay, that had nothing to do with the discussion, but I wanted to have a personal stake in it so smoak can call me a hater)

LMAO! Priceless. But just note that the "Maryland Red" lasts for about 15 minutes, but the rest of the day, the skies are Carolina Blue, baby. :D

Again, the only point I've disagreed with ADAMANTLY is the notion that Roy had little to nothing to do with the '05 National Championship. This isn't a Barry Switzer thing and anyone who thinks that is a fair comparison is biased (or if you prefer... a hater).

Much like your argument of "he can't win a title with his own recruits"

You can't prove it but you have entered into the discussion anyway.

I guarantee you they don't win a title without Roy though, that program was nowhere close to winning a title before Roy came.

I absolutely agree here. I'm not saying that another great coach could't have maybe accomplished the feat, but to be fair, I can't name one. That was back when I was watching every televised game and the '05 team was dramatically DIFFERENT.

To me, I think it's harder to win with another coaches recruits than your own.

Are you saying that Roy Williams Isn't a good recruiter? Are you saying Matt D is the better recruiter?

I couldn't agree more. Granted it helps when you have a proven track record like Roy Williams and the guy on the way out wasn't liked in the lockerroom.... But I absolutely agree.

The knock on Roy was never that he couldn't recruit at Kansas. It was that he never won the big one. Frankly, I think he was just saving the greatness for when he came home. :D

[Keino]

LMAO! Priceless. But just note that the "Maryland Red" lasts for about 15 minutes, but the rest of the day, the skies are Carolina Blue, baby. :D



God just saves the best for last and only gives you 15 minutes of it so that you can fully appreciate its splendor verses the constant and boring Carolina and Duke Blue Hues you get for the majority of days. I mean really, if anyone had a choice they would pick sunsets all day everyday. Maryland Red (with splashes of Yellow).

[dj_stouty]

Goodness...Kent State down 22 points early in the 2nd half.

Guess my prediction for them to cinderella their way into the Great Eight is getting crapped on right now.

[HAWGZHEAD]

Goodness...Kent State down 22 points early in the 2nd half.

Guess my prediction for them to cinderella their way into the Great Eight is getting crapped on right now.
I had Kent st too and Baylor who is getting beat down. Looks like I am the only one that took temple ugh. Go Kentucky down by 3 with 38sec

[CarMike]

I still can't believe Kentucky made the dance. Sorry Brandon. Just my opinion. SEC didn't deserve 6 teams. I know Georgia wouldn't have been included but still.

[RedskinsDave]

Duke didn't deserve to win that game. I actually felt bad for the Belmont kids.

[HAWGZHEAD]

Heartbreaker for Belmont there. I fell outta my chair on that buzzer shot. You just can't take your eyes off the ball on the inbounds pass.

[smoak]

Duke didn't deserve to win that game. I actually felt bad for the Belmont kids.

I don't. That inbound pass was a joke. Even I wouldn't have made that mistake and I am an idiot (even moreso when it comes to bball).

You're tough on your teams so maybe you don't see it, but what ticks me off is that with a team like Duke is that they could now go on a run. I watched most of the game from my PC (converting music to itunes), but I'm guessing their shots weren't falling during the stretch... It happens. I really wish that Belmont hadn't fallen asleep in the last 30 seconds, but at least Duke responded... I mean for your sake. :D

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

belmont really missed a golden opportunity, but seriously, what was with the inbounds pass??? i saw the passer's intention, but the guy wasnt even looking.

[dj_stouty]

You're tough on your teams so maybe you don't see it, but what ticks me off is that with a team like Duke is that they could now go on a run.

I was thinking the exact same thing. That was a huge wakeup call for them. Duke will probably now cruise to the great eight before losing to my championship pick, UCLA.

[RedskinsDave]

I wish I had a dollar for every time I yelled at the TV telling them to watch for the back door. It was so frustrating.

[Keino]

I wish I had a dollar for every time I yelled at the TV telling them to watch for the back door. It was so frustrating.

Yea, but it was pick your poison. The over-play defense was excellent in guarding the 3 point line. The drawback to overplaying is that you are susceptible to back-door passes. That's when help defense and rotation becomes important.

I thought the way they got Duke out of what they wanted to do offensively was a bigger deal.

[flave1969]

So the Mountaineers send Duke home. Mike will be happy

[hogskins]

So the Mountaineers send Duke home. Mike will be happy

Yee-haw! Ratface K deserves it--they were physically overmatched by the Pig East team. And WVU has some skill players. I watched Georgetown play in Raleigh yesterday, and they simply don't have the guard play to win another game or two, even though they were able to crush the UMBC Retrievers. The Hoyas shot fallaway 3-pointers and had difficulty running plays in the half court. I don't know how they won that league.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Another Duke team that played their best basketball pre Febuary.

K better start recruiting some post players or they are never going to have success in March again.

Not a good finish to the season for the Dukies.

[Skins57]

Another Duke team that played their best basketball pre Febuary.

K better start recruiting some post players or they are never going to have success in March again.

Not a good finish to the season for the Dukies.

but a nice way to see Duke end the season for me.. now to watch my Tar Heels win it all will top it off just nicely

[WarEagle]

Aggies almost beat UCLA last night. Seemed they were leading the entire game until the last 30 seconds. What a heartbreaker for them.

[SkinsKY]

I kind of feel bad, but they starting trying to run out the clock so soon and settling for stupid jumpshots over the last 6-7 minutes. If they had kept running their offense, I think they could have done it.

[RedskinsDave]

That Duke team was never as good as their ranking or their seed. I think they played over their heads for most of the season and that's not easy to do once March comes around. They played horribly and lost to a very mediocre team.

[CarMike]

That Duke team was never as good as their ranking or their seed. I think they played over their heads for most of the season and that's not easy to do once March comes around. They played horribly and lost to a very mediocre team.

But, but dook has the greatest coach ever! That alone should help them over the hump of only having 8 burger boys.

What a weekend for the Tar Heels.

Great weekend. UNC scores 100+ in both of their games. dook goes down, G-town goes down. Maryland loses in the NIT. Doesn't get much better.

[smoak]

Oh yeah!! i couldn't believe how great UNC played! they really answered the bell!!

[ChapelHillMatt]

Oh yeah!! i couldn't believe how great UNC played! they really answered the bell!!

Told ya so:Peace:

[WarEagle]

God punished Georgetown for playing on Easter. ;)

[smoak]

Told ya so:Peace:

To be fair, you aren't exactly what Websters would call "impartial". :D

Hey, I'll admit when I am wrong, and man was I wrong. I was too impressed with the Mt. St. Marys win, but to beat the snot out of Arkansas is something.

Anyone up for a road trip this weekend? (Mike, I'm looking in your direction.)

[CarMike]

I don't get why many Tar Heel fans are always worried about our matchups. We are UNC. They are not. We have the talent to win ANY game.

I wasn't worried yesterday. I'm not worried about Washington St. or Tenn/Louisville. I'll be bumbed if we don't win those games. But I'm not heading into those games worried if we'll compete.

Let the media continue 2nd guessing the Heels. Remember, they did the same thing in 2005.

Oh yeah, and we have the refs in our back pocket. :rolleyes:

[Keino]

I'd be very surprised not to see a Carolina-UCLA Final.

Edit - Which is what I picked on all my brackets except the one names "Holy Homerism". The mistake I made was that I had Gtown beating Kansas in every scenario, and though I picked Davidson over Zags, I had no worries that they would eliminate Gtown.....so essentially, with Duke, and Uconn losing earlier, Gtown killed my chances of winning the office pool.

[SkinsKY]

I'd be very surprised not to see a Carolina-UCLA Final.

UCLA will definitely get there if they keep getting no-calls like this at the end of games:
http://blog.kentuckysportsradio.com/wp-content/uploads//2008/03/amamam.jpg

I picked UCLA to win it, so I think they're legit, but they got some help at the end.

[dj_stouty]

UCLA will definitely get there if they keep getting no-calls like this at the end of games:
http://blog.kentuckysportsradio.com/wp-content/uploads//2008/03/amamam.jpg

I picked UCLA to win it, so I think they're legit, but they got some help at the end.

Hmmm. Looks like a legit jump ball to me. ;)

My old man is a UCLA alum, so I'm biased.

[Keino]

The hand on the elbow is a definite foul. I wouldn't call Shipp's a "Clean Block" but he has a piece of the ball and the "Hand is a part of the ball".

The officiating has been all over the place (as usual) for the tourney. Pitt-Mich St. they let em play, and even let them hand-check the whole game. Other games refs were blowing the whistle for breathing on the player, and the end of games, refs swallow the whistle.....a bit too much as evidenced above.

[MONK_in_HOF]

This is the first year in I don't know how long I haven't done a pay bracket. I only did 1 non pay bracket and of course I have 14 of the 16 teams left. All but Vandy and Marquette (who I had in the elite 8) made it through.

[ChapelHillMatt]

To be fair, you aren't exactly what Websters would call "impartial". :D

Hey, I'll admit when I am wrong, and man was I wrong. I was too impressed with the Mt. St. Marys win, but to beat the snot out of Arkansas is something.

Anyone up for a road trip this weekend? (Mike, I'm looking in your direction.)

I didn't think we would look as good as we have but I did like this UNC team a lot and felt like they were a favorite to cut down the nets. They have had an incredible season and now it seems as if they have turned it up a notch or two.

[smoak]

I don't get why many Tar Heel fans are always worried about our matchups. We are UNC. They are not. We have the talent to win ANY game.

I wasn't worried yesterday. I'm not worried about Washington St. or Tenn/Louisville. I'll be bumbed if we don't win those games. But I'm not heading into those games worried if we'll compete.

Let the media continue 2nd guessing the Heels. Remember, they did the same thing in 2005.

Oh yeah, and we have the refs in our back pocket. :rolleyes:

Uhh.... We lost to Maryland at home. No offense to the Terp fans here b/c I don't hate Maryland, but they are TERRIBLE. I mean AWFUL. Our backups should have handled that game.... And don't get me started on the loss to Duke that never should have happened. They simply weren't a top teams this year, and I don't know how they landed a 2 seed.

Plus, I worry about every game for every team. Its my nature as I know anything can and sometimes will happen.

[smoak]

I didn't think we would look as good as we have but I did like this UNC team a lot and felt like they were a favorite to cut down the nets. They have had an incredible season and now it seems as if they have turned it up a notch or two.

Absolutely agree! I'm not knocking them as much as I just haven't felt like they were a team of destiny the way I did about the '05 team. That butt-kicking they threw down Sunday was awe inspiring to someone like me who was worried about their ability to gear up.

One other thing. I love how they really haven't celebrated anything yet. From what I read, they basically took the attitude that all the ACC accolades were nice, but not the goal. Love it.

[Patrick]

Uhh.... We lost to Maryland at home. No offense to the Terp fans here b/c I don't hate Maryland, but they are TERRIBLE. I mean AWFUL. Our backups should have handled that game.... And don't get me started on the loss to Duke that never should have happened. They simply weren't a top teams this year, and I don't know how they landed a 2 seed.

Plus, I worry about every game for every team. Its my nature as I know anything can and sometimes will happen.

None taken and don't disagree.

[Keino]

No we Maryland fans are not offended by the truth.

[CarMike]

Uhh.... We lost to Maryland at home. No offense to the Terp fans here b/c I don't hate Maryland, but they are TERRIBLE. I mean AWFUL. Our backups should have handled that game.... And don't get me started on the loss to Duke that never should have happened. They simply weren't a top teams this year, and I don't know how they landed a 2 seed.

Plus, I worry about every game for every team. Its my nature as I know anything can and sometimes will happen.

Undefeated on the road for the season.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Can't win them all Smoak, we only lost 2 games and like Mike said were undefeated on the road. This is a great team...hopefully they finish the job and win it all.

[smoak]

Can't win them all Smoak, we only lost 2 games and like Mike said were undefeated on the road. This is a great team...hopefully they finish the job and win it all.

Completely understand. Try to see it from my perspective... I can't get into anything related to sports until the Redskins season is over. They always have been and always will be my top priority sports-wise. Then with the way we lost in the playoffs and with Gibbs stepping down*... I wasn't into UNC until late February and even March. Here is a snapshot of what I remember seeing on the court prior to the NCAA tourney:

-- Home losses to MD and Duke (and note I was not impressed with either of those teams this year)
-- A tough win against BC where Rice went off for like ~ 50 points. (yes we finally clamped down but it was disheartening for awhile)
-- Two tough struggles in the ACC tourney (one was against a very poor team and we just played to their level)
-- A double OT win against a Clemson team that hadn't beaten us in Chapel Hill for something like 5 decades? (Granted Clemson is good but still)
-- A struggle to hold onto a win against a terrible GT team

Mix those games in with some wins against teams we should beat, and I was very under whelmed. The Mount St. Marys game did nothing to change that, but WOW did the Arkansas game open eyes. The team is playing with more intensity and focus and hopefully they carry it through to the Finals. While I adamantly disagree (read "vomit on the notion") that this team is better or even as good as the 2005 squad, there is no real contender out there that scare me. We need to take care of business, and for the first time, I am feeling good that we will. I really hope I get to come back with 10,000 pictures of the team cutting down the nets.

* SIDE NOTE--> Gibbs is still my all-time guy. Imagine seeing Dean Smith come back after a decade of UNC missing the tournament only to see the Heels fight and claw their way back to about average. It would be devastating. That is where I am with Gibbs. He is still my all-time favorite, but I'm having trouble caring about sports b/c it sucks that much. I really didn't need to go through that and I almost wish he never came back and that we were still living off one playoff appearance since he left. Almost. You could accurately describe my sports mood as severly depressed. It is that bad for me.

[Keino]

Losing to MD and Duke and those being your only 2 losses, 2 teams that you see every year and know your tendencies and system is not enough to base your thoughts on, especially considering that for most of the season the Heels were ranked #1.

I think everyone pretty much regards UNC as the team to beat.

[MONK_in_HOF]

Can't win them all Smoak, we only lost 2 games and like Mike said were undefeated on the road. This is a great team...hopefully they finish the job and win it all.

Also wasn't Lawson hurt during the Duke loss? I would say this UNC team is great. Not many teams lose only 2 games, especially considering both the 1st and 2nd string PGs weren't able to suit up for 1 of them.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Completely understand. Try to see it from my perspective... I can't get into anything related to sports until the Redskins season is over. They always have been and always will be my top priority sports-wise. Then with the way we lost in the playoffs and with Gibbs stepping down*... I wasn't into UNC until late February and even March. Here is a snapshot of what I remember seeing on the court prior to the NCAA tourney:

-- Home losses to MD and Duke (and note I was not impressed with either of those teams this year)
-- A tough win against BC where Rice went off for like ~ 50 points. (yes we finally clamped down but it was disheartening for awhile)
-- Two tough struggles in the ACC tourney (one was against a very poor team and we just played to their level)
-- A double OT win against a Clemson team that hadn't beaten us in Chapel Hill for something like 5 decades? (Granted Clemson is good but still)
-- A struggle to hold onto a win against a terrible GT team

Mix those games in with some wins against teams we should beat, and I was very under whelmed. The Mount St. Marys game did nothing to change that, but WOW did the Arkansas game open eyes. The team is playing with more intensity and focus and hopefully they carry it through to the Finals. While I adamantly disagree (read "vomit on the notion") that this team is better or even as good as the 2005 squad, there is no real contender out there that scare me. We need to take care of business, and for the first time, I am feeling good that we will. I really hope I get to come back with 10,000 pictures of the team cutting down the nets.

* SIDE NOTE--> Gibbs is still my all-time guy. Imagine seeing Dean Smith come back after a decade of UNC missing the tournament only to see the Heels fight and claw their way back to about average. It would be devastating. That is where I am with Gibbs. He is still my all-time favorite, but I'm having trouble caring about sports b/c it sucks that much. I really didn't need to go through that and I almost wish he never came back and that we were still living off one playoff appearance since he left. Almost. You could accurately describe my sports mood as severly depressed. It is that bad for me.

I guess I just don't take things that seriously, I love the Skins as much as anyone but when our season is done I move on to the next sport. In fact I follow both at the same time if they overlap. I don't let our lack of success in one sport get me so down where I don't follow my other teams in other sports.

As far as the comparison to '05, I just think they are different teams. There are things this team does better and there are advantages the '05 team had as well. I think both though are great in their own way. I keep thinking back to the '05 tourney, that team dominated the first two rounds and then played horrible vs Villanova and was fortunate to get by. If they would have lost that game people would view that team a lot differently than they do currently.

Same with this team, if this team wins it all it's going to be viewed as one of the great teams we've had, if not they'll be forgotten about. It's just the way things are unfortunately, everything depends on what you do in March.

[SkinsKY]

Just since I praised K, I feel obligated to post this to restore balance to the force: Click Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2LlCb6g9FU&eurl=http://awfulannouncing.blogspot.com/)

Little cheap shot, then flop by Henderson. There's also a couple frames of what looks like Singler giving a WVU player a titty twister.

[Keino]

Just since I praised K, I feel obligated to post this to restore balance to the force: Click Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2LlCb6g9FU&eurl=http://awfulannouncing.blogspot.com/)

Little cheap shot, then flop by Henderson. There's also a couple frames of what looks like Singler giving a WVU player a titty twister.

LMAO. He grabbed his arm though, I don't think it was a Tweesta.

[CarMike]

UNC on to the Great 8! Lets get it on Louisville!

[SkinsKY]

UNC on to the Great 8! Lets get it on Louisville!

I think this will be an amazing game. I'm definitely looking forward to this one.

[Keino]

UNC on to the Great 8! Lets get it on Louisville!

I wouldn't sleep on Louisville at all.

[NCskinsfanatic]

I don't want to post this...but I truly think UNC will beat whomever they are matched up against. They are healthy,have a lot of depth and a ton of talent. UCLA would probably give them the toughest time IMO but I still dont think they're as talented as UNC.

Yuk...that left a bad taste in the mouth of this wolpackfan lol.

[SkinsKY]

I don't want to post this...but I truly think UNC will beat whomever they are matched up against. They are healthy,have a lot of depth and a ton of talent. UCLA would probably give them the toughest time IMO but I still dont think they're as talented as UNC.

Yuk...that left a bad taste in the mouth of this wolpackfan lol.

I think that Louisville posts the best test UNC will see this side of UCLA. They're miles ahead of anyone the heels have played thus far. If they handle that well, I'd probably agree.

[MPCSkins]

I think that Louisville posts the best test UNC will see this side of UCLA. They're miles ahead of anyone the heels have played thus far. If they handle that well, I'd probably agree.

I think Kansas can give them just as much competition if not more. They're so athletic.

[SkinsKY]

I think Kansas can give them just as much competition if not more. They're so athletic.

But Louisville has a coaching edge. It's not just the athletes. It's bringing a gameplan and Ricky dances circles around Bill Self.

[Keino]

I think that Louisville posts the best test UNC will see this side of UCLA. They're miles ahead of anyone the heels have played thus far. If they handle that well, I'd probably agree.

I agree with this completely. The way Petino coaches the break and 3 spot up it can give UNC fits.

[hogskins]

I think Kansas can give them just as much competition if not more. They're so athletic.

I think that UNC beats Louisville, maybe going away. I'm not so familiar with this year's Kansas team as when they were Roy's, and they routinely choked in the tournament.

It would be mighty ironic if a Kansas championship came at Ol' Roy's expense, though.

[NCskinsfanatic]

I think that Louisville posts the best test UNC will see this side of UCLA. They're miles ahead of anyone the heels have played thus far. If they handle that well, I'd probably agree.

I agree Louisville could pose the heels a problem but I think Unc will win one way or another...kinda like they did everytime they played Clemson this season. Whether it's holding them off or coming from behind I think they'll do what it takes, when it takes it, to get the W.

[smoak]

UNC on to the Great 8! Lets get it on Louisville!

i am pumped! ~ 12 hours to go!!

[ChapelHillMatt]

Final Four #6 for good ole Roy!

Great job guys, Tyler is a beast.....bring home the title!

[CarMike]

I wouldn't sleep on Louisville at all.

Yawn...

Where did I ever say that it was a given? All I stated was lets get it on.

In the end. The better team won and is moving onto the Final 4. [Better coach as well]

We may not win it all, but it's been a great season.

[smoak]

Holy cow Pitino is an ass. He was spent 75% of the game on the court whining and griping to his players. Not sure why that isn't a technical, but I'm very glad I was wrong about the Heels... They looked great this weekend.

[SkinsKY]

Holy cow Pitino is an ass. He was spent 75% of the game on the court whining and griping to his players. Not sure why that isn't a technical, but I'm very glad I was wrong about the Heels... They looked great this weekend.

Wait, so coaching your players makes you an ass and merits a technical? I'm confused.

[The Skinsinator]

I believe UNC and Memphis are the best in the country and that's the title game I want to see. KU could barely beat pesky Davidson and Memphis smoked UT. Honestly Memphis scares the crap out of me. Very talented and very confident.

[SkinsKY]

Tony Bennett (Wash St. Coach) turns down Hoosiers. Indiana drifts back into obscurity. Too bad for such a historic program...even if I hate them. ;)

[CarMike]

Tony Bennett (Wash St. Coach) turns down Hoosiers. Indiana drifts back into obscurity. Too bad for such a historic program...even if I hate them. ;)

Bruce Pearle leaves Tennessee for Indiana. You heard it here first. :)

I don't really believe it, but it would be funny.

What a great final 4 this will be! All #1's advanced. Awesome

[Keino]

Yawn...

Where did I ever say that it was a given? All I stated was lets get it on.

In the end. The better team won and is moving onto the Final 4. [Better coach as well]

We may not win it all, but it's been a great season.

Way to wait until AFTER the game to respond.

I never said that you said it was a given, only not to sleep on Louisville. Every brackee I did has UNC in the Final 4. I had no interest in seeing Louisville win the game.

[lakeskin]

Looking foward to a Love v Hansborough Final altho Memphis has a a very good chance of knocking out UCLA. I dont think Kansas can win because: Roy > Bill.

[dj_stouty]

Looking foward to a Love v Hansborough Final altho Memphis has a a very good chance of knocking out UCLA. I dont think Kansas can win because: Roy > Bill.

I was also thinking about how enjoyable a Hansbrough vs. Love matchup would be. I can't believe Love is a freshman; he sure doesn't play like one.

[SkinsKY]

Bruce Pearle leaves Tennessee for Indiana. You heard it here first. :)

I don't really believe it, but it would be funny.

What a great final 4 this will be! All #1's advanced. Awesome

I actually heard that rumor a week ago. ;) But I don't buy it either. That program isn't going to lure a big name. They're going to need somebody who wants a challenge a la Pitino following Sutton's mess.

[NCskinsfanatic]

I actually heard that rumor a week ago. ;) But I don't buy it either. That program isn't going to lure a big name. They're going to need somebody who wants a challenge a la Pitino following Sutton's mess.

If there's a coach just looking for a challenge my Wolfpack could use some help...lol.

[CarMike]

Way to wait until AFTER the game to respond.

I never said that you said it was a given, only not to sleep on Louisville. Every brackee I did has UNC in the Final 4. I had no interest in seeing Louisville win the game.

Yeah Keino. You know me. I have to wait till after a game to respond. :rolleyes: Way to wait 3 days later to respond to me...

[CarMike]

http://duke.scout.com/2/742312.html

Sources confirm to TheDevilsDen.com that freshman wing Taylor King will transfer from the program.

"He's transferring," a source close to the situation confirmed to TDD on Monday. "He's already let the coaches know."
The 6-foot-6, 230 pound California prospect appeared in 34 games this season where he averaged 5.5 points and 2.0 rebounds per game while shooting 41% from the field and 38% from the perimeter.

King logged a career best 27 points against Eastern Kentucky in November as part of a five game stretch that saw him average 16.0 points per game. However, his playing time dipped substantially as the season progressed, rendering him scoreless in nine of his final 21 games. In total King logged six or fewer minutes in six of the team's final seven games.

Villanova and Gonzaga are thought to be the likeliest destinations for King

[The Skinsinator]

http://duke.scout.com/2/742312.htmlWhy is King transferring? Probably because of lack of playing times. Whatever but it's not like he was lights out when he was out there.

[CarMike]

Why is King transferring? Probably because of lack of playing times. Whatever but it's not like he was lights out when he was out there.

Another sign of the "greatest" college coach ever wasting a Micky D's talent on the bench.

At one point early during the season, King was averaging 16 points a game. But as the season wore on, k does what he does best. Relie way to much on his starters. That's why his guys were tired for the ACC tournament and the NCAAT. At least that's the excuse he likes to use.

Man, what a great coach.

[SkinsKY]

I just wanted to take a moment to honor Bill Keightley, The "Bubba Tyer" of UK, but certainly a whole lot more. He had been with the progam while RUpp ws still building it. Passed away today at 81. Godspeed sir.

“Mr. Wildcat” Bill Keightley passes away

Long time Kentucky basketball manager Bill Keightley passed away Monday night at the University of Cincinnati hospital from internal bleeding caused by a previously undiagnosed tumor on his spine. Keightley was 81 years old. Doctors believe the internal bleeding began Monday afternoon while Keightley was attending the Cincinnati Reds season opener. He was taken to University Hospital, where doctors at the trauma center were not able to stop the bleeding, according Dr. Pete Muskat, Clinical Director of Trauma Services. He passed away at 7:45 p.m., with his family and members of the UK coaching staff with him at the hospital.

Affectionately known as “Mr. Wildcat,” Keightley had been associated with the Wildcats’ basketball program since 1962. Keightley, who manned the “Bill Keightley Equipment Room” in Memorial Coliseum, was as much a fixture around UK basketball as the seven national championship trophies on display in the Joe Craft Center.

“This is one of the saddest days of my life,” head coach Billy Gillispie said from Cincinnati Monday night. “I commented earlier today that at the age of 81, he’s become one of my very best friends, and the person I was talking to said ‘that’s what makes him so great, because everyone feels he’s their best friend’.” And that’s because he was so genuine and so caring about others.

“He influenced each of us on a daily basis, and he was a great example of someone who loved his University more than anything. Obviously, he’s in a better place, but the void he leaves for all of us, and especially his family, is going to be a difficult situation. Our hearts go out to his family and the millions of Wildcats fans who he loved so much.”

Having just completed his 48th season on the UK sidelines, the Wildcats’ record over the past four decades with Keightley as equipment manager is 1,113-351. During his tenure, he served under six UK head coaches — Adolph Rupp, Joe B. Hall, Eddie Sutton, Rick Pitino, Orlando “Tubby” Smith and Billy Gillispie. Kentucky, which has fielded 105 teams, has played 2,588; meaning Keightley played a role in 57 percent of those games. In 1997, UK honored Keightley with a retired jersey in his honor. He joins veteran broadcaster Cawood Ledford as the only non-player or coach to have a jersey retired at UK. Keightley was also among 88 Wildcat greats inducted into the charter class of the UK Athletics Hall of Fame in 2005.

“I’m shook up,” former UK head coach Joe B. Hall said Monday night. “We had dinner together Friday night and he was in great spirits. It’s hard to believe. He was a good friend to all of us. He was so close to all the coaches, players, managers and everyone who was associated with Kentucky basketball. It’s a total shock.”

[Keino]

Yeah Keino. You know me. I have to wait till after a game to respond. :rolleyes: Way to wait 3 days later to respond to me...

Honestly, I didn't see your post. But beat your chest smack talking after a game has been played with utter silence prior to the game is the stuff kitty cats are made of. Had you made the "Yawn" post prior to the game, I could at least respect that, but waiting until after tells me you were skeered.

Your post read like "I told ya so" when in fact you said nothing until the game was played and the results favored UNC, when I didn't even opine that UNC would lose the game, only that they better not sleep on Louisville. In fact, UNC winning it all will probably pay me, so I have a financial interest in seeing the boys in Fairy Princess blue win it all.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Scared? To post on a message board?

Are you serious?

[Keino]

Scared? To post on a message board?

Are you serious?

Scared to talk and then have the team not back-up the talk.

I will repeat...........Talking smack after a favorable result without Smacktalk before the game is played is the stuff Kitty Cats are made of. Sugar and Spice and everything nice.

Men who talk smack do so before the game and then man-up and take their lumps after or beat their chests after depending on the result. At least where I'm from.

An example. MD beat UNC this year at UNC. I did not come here and talk a bunch of smack, because I didn't think it would happen priorto the game. However, had I said "UNC is going down, the Terps will prevail yadda yadda yadda" talking smack afterwards would have been justified.

I guess yall do things different on Tobbacy road. But more to the point, the smacktalk was unwarranted, because all I said is that you "better not sleep on Louisville". If he "Yawned" the comment before the game, that would one thing, to come on afterwards is Kitty-cattish. Defending it (if that's what you're doing) is equally kitty-cattish. Reminds me of the Movie "House Party", when the Dudes were smellin something.........sniff sniff.

[smoak]

Wait, so coaching your players makes you an ass and merits a technical? I'm confused.


When you're physically on the court when the play is running? Yes.

But "ass" might have been a bit of a stretch... It just rubbed my the wrong way personally. I heard that RP was very good at the post game presser.

[SkinsKY]

When you're physically on the court when the play is running? Yes.

But "ass" might have been a bit of a stretch... It just rubbed my the wrong way personally. I heard that RP was very good at the post game presser.
That part was unclear to me in the initial assertion. I'm not a big Pitino as far as his personality goes, but the man can coach. Potshots like the one Mike tossed at him make me laugh a little bit.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like most of the UNC fans are suffering from an acute Napoleon complex as of late. What's with that? Guys who normally keep a level head about their college hoops seem to have some thin skins all of a sudden.

[SkinsKY]

WKU's head coach to South Carolina. Good move for SC, I think. Young coach with a lot of recent success.

Tom Crean to Indiana. I didn't see that one coming. He can recruit pretty well, so we'll see if he can keep any of Sampson's signees that decommited.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Scared to talk and then have the team not back-up the talk.

I will repeat...........Talking smack after a favorable result without Smacktalk before the game is played is the stuff Kitty Cats are made of. Sugar and Spice and everything nice.

Men who talk smack do so before the game and then man-up and take their lumps after or beat their chests after depending on the result. At least where I'm from.

An example. MD beat UNC this year at UNC. I did not come here and talk a bunch of smack, because I didn't think it would happen priorto the game. However, had I said "UNC is going down, the Terps will prevail yadda yadda yadda" talking smack afterwards would have been justified.

I guess yall do things different on Tobbacy road. But more to the point, the smacktalk was unwarranted, because all I said is that you "better not sleep on Louisville". If he "Yawned" the comment before the game, that would one thing, to come on afterwards is Kitty-cattish. Defending it (if that's what you're doing) is equally kitty-cattish. Reminds me of the Movie "House Party", when the Dudes were smellin something.........sniff sniff.

You take this stuff to seriously, it's just a message board.

[Keino]

I just know how to talk smack like a man. Nothing too serious about it, just that I recognize kitty cat antics when I see them. Talking smack after the fact is exactly that.

[Patrick]

Congrats to Memphis and Kansas ..... Best teams move to the finals - should be a heck of a game.

[SkinsKY]

Kansas played 12 minutes of some of the best basketball I've ever seen. Good enough that even Bill Self couldn't screw it up. Should be a good match up on Monday.

[dj_stouty]

So much for my UNC/UCLA brackets. :smash:

UNC got dominated last night...I didn't expect to see that. Kansas simply smacked them in the face and UNC caved twice; once in each half.

[RedskinsDave]

Another sign of the "greatest" college coach ever wasting a Micky D's talent on the bench.

At one point early during the season, King was averaging 16 points a game. But as the season wore on, k does what he does best. Relie way to much on his starters. That's why his guys were tired for the ACC tournament and the NCAAT. At least that's the excuse he likes to use.

Man, what a great coach.

Karma called, it's wondering when Roy will win with his own team. What a great coach.

[hogskins]

So much for my UNC/UCLA brackets. :smash:

UNC got dominated last night...I didn't expect to see that. Kansas simply smacked them in the face and UNC caved twice; once in each half.

They made a heck of a comeback during the middle of the game, but they dug too deep of a hole in the 1st half. It was like watching 3 different games rolled into one.

The upside is that I won't have to listen to a bunch of UNC fans who have never touched a basketball rave non-stop about "Psycho T" the rest of the year. I wonder if he, Ellington, and/or Lawson will be back next season?

[smoak]

That part was unclear to me in the initial assertion. I'm not a big Pitino as far as his personality goes, but the man can coach. Potshots like the one Mike tossed at him make me laugh a little bit.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like most of the UNC fans are suffering from an acute Napoleon complex as of late. What's with that? Guys who normally keep a level head about their college hoops seem to have some thin skins all of a sudden.

I think Pitino is a great coach, and frankly my opinion is fairly meaningless.... His record speaks for itself. However, I will say that I have less respect for coaches who are blantant carpetbaggers... I mean, how in God's name to you go to Louisville after you were the man at UK??? Out of curiosity, what was your take on that? But rivalaries aside, will history even really remember the Larry Browns of the world as well as the guys who have stayed put in one spot? My thought is, no.

Re: your second point, I'm guessing you aren't lumping me in there considering that I took heat for having my doubts that the Heels were good enough to win the National Championship. Also, every team has fans that are cocksure and ones that are like me and worry about every possession of every game. It is the nature of the beast and UNC is no different in that way than UK, Duke, Redskins, Eagles, Yankees, etc.

From the start I have been much more confident in our chances in 2009 (assuming everyone comes back next year).

[Keino]

So much for my UNC/UCLA brackets. :smash:

UNC got dominated last night...I didn't expect to see that. Kansas simply smacked them in the face and UNC caved twice; once in each half.

I didn't even watch, but I had UNC/UCLA final myself. So this result (Both Final 4 games) cost me money, but given how unbearable Carolina fans (Here and in the office) were becoming, I cannot say I am disappointed in the outcome.

[SkinsKY]

I think Pitino is a great coach, and frankly my opinion is fairly meaningless.... His record speaks for itself. However, I will say that I have less respect for coaches who are blantant carpetbaggers... I mean, how in God's name to you go to Louisville after you were the man at UK??? Out of curiosity, what was your take on that? But rivalaries aside, will history even really remember the Larry Browns of the world as well as the guys who have stayed put in one spot? My thought is, no.

Re: your second point, I'm guessing you aren't lumping me in there considering that I took heat for having my doubts that the Heels were good enough to win the National Championship. Also, every team has fans that are cocksure and ones that are like me and worry about every possession of every game. It is the nature of the beast and UNC is no different in that way than UK, Duke, Redskins, Eagles, Yankees, etc.

From the start I have been much more confident in our chances in 2009 (assuming everyone comes back next year).

I'm not the biggest fan of Pitino as a man, but he's a very good coach. It'd be be one thing if Pitino left UK for Louisville, but he left for a shot at the NBA, failed and came back. Louisville happened to be the best offer when he did. That's the business of it. I think if he stayed, we could have still won the 98 title, and I'd bet he could have brought another one home at some point as well.

[SkinsKY]

Since no one wants to talk about his brother anymore, Psycho B is leaving Miss. St. for ports unknown:click (http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080407/SPORTS030102/80407049/1287/SPORTS&referrer=NEWSFRONTCAROUSEL)

Stansbury lost All-American Scotty Hopson to Tennessee and lost a few transfers last season (The Delk twins) too. Looks like this will be his swan song in the SEC unless he can fart rainbows.

[WarEagle]

Memphis seemed to get really lazy at the end there.

[shally]

Memphis seemed to get really lazy at the end there.

gotta give kansas props for staying tough right to the end... you have to be able to make free throws unless you are in a different class than your opponent. still teams with talent get tight and lose..

[SkinsKY]

Rock. Chalk. Jayhawk. Worst cheer in America, but glad to see Kansas win. I'm not a Calipari fan (or Bill Self even), but I love watching those kids play ball when they're clicking.

[WarEagle]

gotta give kansas props for staying tough right to the end... you have to be able to make free throws unless you are in a different class than your opponent. still teams with talent get tight and lose..

Give Kansas extra credit for managing to attract such talent to...the state of Kansas! :D

[skinfanjon]

Rock. Chalk. Jayhawk. Worst cheer in America, but glad to see Kansas win. I'm not a Calipari fan (or Bill Self even), but I love watching those kids play ball when they're clicking.

what does that even mean? I assume chalk is used in the way you would describe a bracket filled out with all one seeds, but it doesn't make any sense. On second thought, it is Kansas....

[smoak]

Since no one wants to talk about his brother anymore, Psycho B is leaving Miss. St. for ports unknown:click (http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080407/SPORTS030102/80407049/1287/SPORTS&referrer=NEWSFRONTCAROUSEL)

Stansbury lost All-American Scotty Hopson to Tennessee and lost a few transfers last season (The Delk twins) too. Looks like this will be his swan song in the SEC unless he can fart rainbows.


??? Why would people not want to talk about Tyler. I don't see any bandwagon fans here? If anything, I don't like to talk about it after a loss b/c I'm pissed (as was the case Sunday).

Either way, I'd really, really think people want to talk about Tyler b/c our 2008-09 season hinges on whether or not he stays (IMO at least).

[Patrick]

Congrats to all the Kanas fans (and team). Played with a lot of heart last night and prevailed.

[SkinsKY]

??? Why would people not want to talk about Tyler. I don't see any bandwagon fans here? If anything, I don't like to talk about it after a loss b/c I'm pissed (as was the case Sunday).

Either way, I'd really, really think people want to talk about Tyler b/c our 2008-09 season hinges on whether or not he stays (IMO at least).

Touchy? I was just commenting on the fact that this thread died the moment the heels were sent back to Chapel Hill. Apparently, people don't really want to talk about him that much because it's been two days of silence from most of the UNC crowd. I'd thought they'd be equally vocal in defeat as they were when things were bouncing their way.

[dj_stouty]

Touchy? I was just commenting on the fact that this thread died the moment the heels were sent back to Chapel Hill. Apparently, people don't really want to talk about him that much because it's been two days of silence from most of the UNC crowd. I'd thought they'd be equally vocal in defeat as they were when things were bouncing their way.

Yes...it as been awfully quiet around here hasn't it? When UNC lost did internet service go out in the state of North Carolina? ;)

[skinfanjon]

Yes...it as been awfully quiet around here hasn't it? When UNC lost did internet service go out in the state of North Carolina? ;)

They have Internet service in North Carolina?

[Keino]

Yes...it as been awfully quiet around here hasn't it? When UNC lost did internet service go out in the state of North Carolina? ;)

LMAO. Im pretty sure this thread would have gone on for a few more pages had UNC won on Saturday.

[dj_stouty]

LMAO. Im pretty sure this thread would have gone on for a few more pages had UNC won on Saturday.

I wonder what the UNC fans thought about Roy wearing a Kansas logo on his shirt during the game last night?

http://media.newsobserver.com/smedia/2008/04/08/09/329-roy1.embedded.prod_affiliate.3.jpg

Looks like he is having waaaay too much fun for a guy who just lost to that team a few days prior.

[redskin_rich]

What's that sound?(crickets)

[smoak]

Touchy? I was just commenting on the fact that this thread died the moment the heels were sent back to Chapel Hill. Apparently, people don't really want to talk about him that much because it's been two days of silence from most of the UNC crowd. I'd thought they'd be equally vocal in defeat as they were when things were bouncing their way.


Touchy? Nope. Bitter? Probably. Disappointed? Definitely.

From what I saw the thread was dead WELL before the Final Four. It is one of the very few threads that I have pegged to check and after a couple days away from HR, I was surprised that there was little dialog (after both the past two weekends). Frankly I believe that broad interest in men's bball dies after the first weekend of the tourney unless a team like Davidson or George Mason becomes a story.

Are you as equally vocal when the wildcats lose as when they win??? That statement just doesn't make sense to me? Who is as vocal when their team loses?? I still support my team just as much, but I don't go pounding on my chest and saying "Hey did you see that!!??"... You aren't being unbiased (IMO).

[smoak]

I wonder what the UNC fans thought about Roy wearing a Kansas logo on his shirt during the game last night?

http://media.newsobserver.com/smedia/2008/04/08/09/329-roy1.embedded.prod_affiliate.3.jpg

Looks like he is having waaaay too much fun for a guy who just lost to that team a few days prior.

The man coached there for what... 15 years? I have zero issue with it. I just think he is different than me in that I am such a terrible loser ther is NO WAY possible I could be there. I wouldn't give a rat's rear end. Case in point, I fell asleep at 8:30 watching Family Guy.

[Keino]

The man coached there for what... 15 years? I have zero issue with it. I just think he is different than me in that I am such a terrible loser ther is NO WAY possible I could be there. I wouldn't give a rat's rear end. Case in point, I fell asleep at 8:30 watching Family Guy.

So wait. You would have been okay with Norv Turner wearing a Dallas Cowboys Golf Shirt in the Stands in 1996 during the playoffs (While he was the Skis coach)? I mean he used to coach there.

Not to mention that is the team that just ousted the team he coaches. I would be pissed if I saw Gary Williams rockin a Boston College shirt after BC ousts Maryland from the Tourney. I would be equally pissed if I saw JT III rockin a Princeton shirt right after they outs Gtown from teh tourney and JT not only coached their but went to school there.

But more to the point, I don't think he really had that shirt on. I think DJ Photo-shopped it. I have to think Roy is smarter than that since he still has to recruit for UNC.

[Keino]

Touchy? Nope. Bitter? Probably. Disappointed? Definitely.

From what I saw the thread was dead WELL before the Final Four. It is one of the very few threads that I have pegged to check and after a couple days away from HR, I was surprised that there was little dialog (after both the past two weekends). Frankly I believe that broad interest in men's bball dies after the first weekend of the tourney unless a team like Davidson or George Mason becomes a story.

Are you as equally vocal when the wildcats lose as when they win??? That statement just doesn't make sense to me? Who is as vocal when their team loses?? I still support my team just as much, but I don't go pounding on my chest and saying "Hey did you see that!!??"... You aren't being unbiased (IMO).

Is he equally vocal? No. But he does show his face. Given all the ying-yang talked by your compatriots, that's the very least they could do. They haven't even done that.

[dj_stouty]

But more to the point, I don't think he really had that shirt on. I think DJ Photo-shopped it. I have to think Roy is smarter than that since he still has to recruit for UNC.

Nope. That picture is 100% legit. Click the following link for another picture and a story on it. Mike & Mike were also discussing this on their radio program all morning.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/index.php?title=williams_stays_to_support_ku_son&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

Another story below...

http://acc.starnewsonline.com/default.asp?item=2184732

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/media/williamsku.jpg

[Keino]

Well then, I stand corrected. Roy is indeed dumber than he looks.....

[smoak]

So wait. You would have been okay with Norv Turner wearing a Dallas Cowboys Golf Shirt in the Stands in 1996 during the playoffs (While he was the Skis coach)? I mean he used to coach there.

Not to mention that is the team that just ousted the team he coaches. I would be pissed if I saw Gary Williams rockin a Boston College shirt after BC ousts Maryland from the Tourney. I would be equally pissed if I saw JT III rockin a Princeton shirt right after they outs Gtown from teh tourney and JT not only coached their but went to school there.

But more to the point, I don't think he really had that shirt on. I think DJ Photo-shopped it. I have to think Roy is smarter than that since he still has to recruit for UNC.

College is a little different in my mind.... I know it sounds hypocritical, but it is (for me). This is Roy's home, but he built a nice legacy with another school and still maintains strong ties there. Is it MY way? Hell no. I'd be out slashing the tires on the team bus. But I know Roy has better character than I do and I trust his judgment.

dallass/Redskins is closer to UNC/Duke. If anyone at any time from UNC wore anything that was even spelled with a "D", I'd take offense. It is part of being rivals. I think a better analogy would be Gibbs pulling for Atlanta after we were eliminated... Again, I wouldn't love it.... And I am a little borderline hypocritical, but I wouldn't go off the deep end.

I'm much more concerned why Roy didn't have the team ready MENTALLY than I am what ***expletives deleted*** shirt he wore after his team was bounced. All in all, I thought UNC met my expectations this season as I never really felt like we were the team (but I certainly didn't think it was Kansas), but it doesn't help b/c once they started manhandling teams in the tourney, I was convinced I was wrong. I just never imagined that Self coached team would win. I had them going out early.

I also agree with your last point that I thought the shirt was photoshopped which is another reason I just don't give a **expletive deleted**.

[smoak]

Is he equally vocal? No. But he does show his face. Given all the ying-yang talked by your compatriots, that's the very least they could do. They haven't even done that.

Maybe. I haven't paid attention to what was said. Please note that I don't "talk smack" so I personally don't feel like I need to "man up" ever. Now that I absolutely agree with if you are going to sling it around, you better be able to take it (and show up to get some)... I choose not to get into the preliminary shoving matches b/c I don't find it entertaining or a good use of my time. There is no upside for someone like me, and I am comfortable enough in my manhood that I don't need to beat on my chest and hoot/holler.

But if the thought process is that everyone has to conform to your standard for being a fan? That is bull. People handle things differently. Some people get down in the dumps. Some drink heavily or rely on some other vice. Some ignore it as best as they can. Some want to talk about it.... Whatever. We're all unique individuals with unique experiences and histories.

Dave made maybe one comment after Duke lost (or at least I remember one and it might have been after the tight opening game), and I never once thought anything bad about it... Why? Because it SUCKS when your team loses. Period. It flat out is one of the most horrendous feelings in the world outside of . I don't log onto HR after the Redskins lose b/c I just don't care to talk about it...

I came back to this thread yesterday b/c I was morbidly curious to see where the thread was going... And for the record I wasn't "calling out" Brandon, but rather trying to understand the thought process that a person should be equally vocal after their team loses? I truly don't understand that line of thinking.

[smoak]

Well then, I stand corrected. Roy is indeed dumber than he looks.....

While I tend to agree that I am not a fan of this move, I think calling the man "dumb" is wrong. I think this is more of a case of you being cantankerous than it is of Roy being an idiot.

Would the same rules apply to Coach Knight had he wore an IU sweater while coaching another team (assuming they were out and he was in attendance)??? I'm sure you'll say it would but in reality I don't get why anyone would care UNLESS the two teams were rivals or in the same conference...

Again, I hate it personally (I couldn't do it), but I understand it and don't have a major issue with it.

Ok, I'm catching the train. I'll check in tomorrow...

[Keino]

Maybe. I haven't paid attention to what was said. Please note that I don't "talk smack" so I personally don't feel like I need to "man up" ever. Now that I absolutely agree with if you are going to sling it around, you better be able to take it (and show up to get some)... I choose not to get into the preliminary shoving matches b/c I don't find it entertaining or a good use of my time. There is no upside for someone like me, and I am comfortable enough in my manhood that I don't need to beat on my chest and hoot/holler.

But if the thought process is that everyone has to conform to your standard for being a fan? That is bull. People handle things differently. Some people get down in the dumps. Some drink heavily or rely on some other vice. Some ignore it as best as they can. Some want to talk about it.... Whatever. We're all unique individuals with unique experiences and histories.

Dave made maybe one comment after Duke lost (or at least I remember one and it might have been after the tight opening game), and I never once thought anything bad about it... Why? Because it SUCKS when your team loses. Period. It flat out is one of the most horrendous feelings in the world outside of . I don't log onto HR after the Redskins lose b/c I just don't care to talk about it...

I came back to this thread yesterday b/c I was morbidly curious to see where the thread was going... And for the record I wasn't "calling out" Brandon, but rather trying to understand the thought process that a person should be equally vocal after their team loses? I truly don't understand that line of thinking.

Like I said man, there was some chest puffing and smack talking from some UNC fans. None of those UNC fans have shown up to take their medicine...and I will note that none of those fans were saying that UNC was definitely going to win, but you can look back a few pages and see the smack talk there.

To not show up? Dave showed up when Duke lost, thats the difference. I show up when MD & GTown lose. Am I as vocal? No, but certainly that was Brandon's point. With all the chest beating that went down after Rd 2 and Sweet 16, show-up when you lose in the Final 4. Making the Final 4 is nothing to be ashamed of.

This is not my standard of being a fan. This is my standard of being a man. If I talk it I try my best walk it.

[Keino]

While I tend to agree that I am not a fan of this move, I think calling the man "dumb" is wrong. I think this is more of a case of you being cantankerous than it is of Roy being an idiot.

Would the same rules apply to Coach Knight had he wore an IU sweater while coaching another team (assuming they were out and he was in attendance)??? I'm sure you'll say it would but in reality I don't get why anyone would care UNLESS the two teams were rivals or in the same conference...

Again, I hate it personally (I couldn't do it), but I understand it and don't have a major issue with it.

Ok, I'm catching the train. I'll check in tomorrow...

This is not me being cantankerous. I think it is supremely Dumb to coach at one school and wear the logo of another, one in which you will have to compete against for recruits. In fact, I went into every reason why I would not want Gary Williams or JT III (The respective coaches of the College programs I support) doing exactly that at non-rival schools. Simply replace Boston College with Ohio State for G Williams.

Did Coach Knight ever wear an IU sweater while coaching Texas Tech? I don't think he did and YES, I would call him dumb for that too.

[WarEagle]

What Roy Williams did with the Kansas shirt or sticker is a fireable offense in the SEC. He would lose the confidence of the alumni, trustees, and athletic director. I can only imagine that he had a few pregame cocktails with his son, saw the sticker, and slapped it on his shirt in the heat of the moment. Stoopid.

[ChapelHillMatt]

He loves KU and UNC equally, fans need to accept that.

He did nothing wrong imo, it's not like he tried to throw the game on Saturday to help KU win the title.

[SkinsKY]

Are you as equally vocal when the wildcats lose as when they win??? That statement just doesn't make sense to me? Who is as vocal when their team loses?? I still support my team just as much, but I don't go pounding on my chest and saying "Hey did you see that!!??"... You aren't being unbiased (IMO).

I'll still come around when we lose, and we've lost a lot this year. Check it. I posted the night after the Gardner-Webb loss (second post in the whole thread). Worse loss this program has ever seen. I was there still.
I talked about the fear of being worse than the 8-22 heels team (which thank the Lord we were still much better than them). I was there right after we lost to your baby blue boys too. I have no qualms showing my face win or lose. I'm happier after I win, but I can deal with a loss, to a good team or to a team like G-W. I'll take my medicine when it's due.

I know you've been here posting, but for all the "the better coach won" talk, and the "This team could be better than '05" that had become the norm for the first two weeks of the tourney, I just thought I'd hear even some begrudging respect for the new national champs.

[smoak]

Like I said man, there was some chest puffing and smack talking from some UNC fans. None of those UNC fans have shown up to take their medicine...and I will note that none of those fans were saying that UNC was definitely going to win, but you can look back a few pages and see the smack talk there.

To not show up? Dave showed up when Duke lost, thats the difference. I show up when MD & GTown lose. Am I as vocal? No, but certainly that was Brandon's point. With all the chest beating that went down after Rd 2 and Sweet 16, show-up when you lose in the Final 4. Making the Final 4 is nothing to be ashamed of.

This is not my standard of being a fan. This is my standard of being a man. If I talk it I try my best walk it.


Totally agree which is why I don't do a lot of talking... When my teams lose I am pissed to no end and I know that I don't take razzing well. So I don't open myself up to deserving it.

I'm too "part time" these days to know who shows up and who doesn't. I just didn't see Dave in the thread until his comment about karma biting UNC in the butt. But again, I didn't care that much and just ignored the comment b/c I didnt feel it was addressed to me. Truth be told, another reason I never say anything much about my teams is in fact b/c I worry about karma, jinxing it, or whatever you want to call it.

[smoak]

This is not me being cantankerous. I think it is supremely Dumb to coach at one school and wear the logo of another, one in which you will have to compete against for recruits. In fact, I went into every reason why I would not want Gary Williams or JT III (The respective coaches of the College programs I support) doing exactly that at non-rival schools. Simply replace Boston College with Ohio State for G Williams.

Did Coach Knight ever wear an IU sweater while coaching Texas Tech? I don't think he did and YES, I would call him dumb for that too.

Not to my knowledge, but hey as long as you're consistant. I'm not such a die hard college fan that I follow the recruiting side of the world so that is a very good point...

But at the end of the day, it was just a sticker/button and I personally don't care (even though you bring up very great points).

[smoak]

I'll still come around when we lose, and we've lost a lot this year. Check it. I posted the night after the Gardner-Webb loss (second post in the whole thread). Worse loss this program has ever seen. I was there still.
I talked about the fear of being worse than the 8-22 heels team (which thank the Lord we were still much better than them). I was there right after we lost to your baby blue boys too. I have no qualms showing my face win or lose. I'm happier after I win, but I can deal with a loss, to a good team or to a team like G-W. I'll take my medicine when it's due.

I know you've been here posting, but for all the "the better coach won" talk, and the "This team could be better than '05" that had become the norm for the first two weeks of the tourney, I just thought I'd hear even some begrudging respect for the new national champs.

You're a better person than I am. I stew after a loss and I don't want my anger to manifest itself in unhealthy ways so I avoid discussing the situation with anyone. But as I said, "to each his/her own"...

And for the record, I have no respect for KU. They can rot. If those choking Tigers had half a brain they would have gotten settled and sealed the deal. :D

[Keino]

Not to my knowledge, but hey as long as you're consistant. I'm not such a die hard college fan that I follow the recruiting side of the world so that is a very good point...

But at the end of the day, it was just a sticker/button and I personally don't care (even though you bring up very great points).

And for the record, I don't have a problem with Williams cheering for KU. Just as I wouldn't have a problem with JT III cheering for Princeton and Gary Cheering for Ohio State.

The problem for me is that the HC is the face of the program. Kids literally select programs to attend based on the HC. As a student/fan of a program, I would not be happy with the face of the program wearing the logo of another program. His job in his public life is to promote the program that pays him.

Imagine Petino who coaches at Louisville, but made his career at Kentucky, wearing a Kentucky Shirt at the Final 4 while his own team got ousted by Kentucky. Do you think Louisville fans are going to be happy about that?

[ChapelHillMatt]

And for the record, I don't have a problem with Williams cheering for KU. Just as I wouldn't have a problem with JT III cheering for Princeton and Gary Cheering for Ohio State.

The problem for me is that the HC is the face of the program. Kids literally select programs to attend based on the HC. As a student/fan of a program, I would not be happy with the face of the program wearing the logo of another program. His job in his public life is to promote the program that pays him.

Imagine Petino who coaches at Louisville, but made his career at Kentucky, wearing a Kentucky Shirt at the Final 4 while his own team got ousted by Kentucky. Do you think Louisville fans are going to be happy about that?

I would agree with you if Roy struggled in recruiting but he doesn't so this isn't going to affect him at all.